Jon Bernthal: Eternally Grateful
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That's right. Discover automatically doubles the cash back earned on your credit card at the end of your first year with Cash Back Match. Now that's a real crowd pleaser. Everyone knows how it ends. Double the cash back. See terms at discover.com slash credit card. Hey, John, man, what's up? Thanks for coming on. Hey, man, I'm really appreciative you have me. I'm a huge fan. Oh, well, right back at you. ♪

Hey, everybody. It's literally with me, Rob Lowe. John Bernthal is with us. Great actor. Has been in so much. Well, you'll hear. I'm a huge fan. Not only of him, but like the type of stuff that he does is super interesting and some of my favorite stuff. He's currently on HBO's We Own This City, which is this sort of companion piece to the iconic The Wire series.

I'm assuming you've all seen The Wire because it might be the greatest show ever made. But he's got a lot of great stuff, so I'm going to get right into it because it's a long conversation. And I feel like I say this all the time. It's one of my favorite conversations. But what am I going to say? It's one of my favorite conversations. Here we go.

Thanks for coming in. How are you liking doing your podcast, by the way? Um, you know, I am liking it. I'm really grateful for the folks that come on. You know, look, it's a big ask. I feel like a lot of the times, you know, the the the

The people that I have on are special forces soldiers and police officers and surgeons and coaches. They're folks that really aren't used to being on camera in front of the mic. And so I know it's sort of a big ask, but they're to a person...

you know, people that have had huge, huge impacts on me and that I've learned so much from. And, you know, as sort of the state of discourse in this country, you know, bringing in people who really walk the walk rather than just talk about it. It's a huge, I'm just enormously grateful. I've learned so much from them and I'm grateful for the opportunity of getting their voices out there. Yeah, it's a good group that you have on. And I agree with you 100%. It's like,

I think we all agree so much more about anything than we disagree just as a collective, whether it's the country or the world or city or state or whatever. Clickbait and headlines, that's generated. It's like story. You have to have conflict for story. That's right. But just like what you said, I think we all...

want everything in the world for our kids. We all love this country. We all have had worries and concerns. And for the most part, we love our neighbors. But I just think about the last group of folks that we had on were a guy who had done 20 years in prison. And I had him on with a cop that kind of put him away. They both

we're finishing each other's sentences and they have so much more in common than they did the opposite. And I think it's like if these two guys can kind of get along and find bridges and roots of commonality, we all can. I just think, again, so much of the discourse is geared towards keeping folks apart. And that drives me crazy. Yeah, conflict sells. Yes, sir.

Conflict sells. So, yeah. So I really appreciate you having your podcast. That's super cool. And so you must have tons of thoughts. You grew up. I mean, you is it is it it's it's a fair categorization. So you grew up in Russia, right? You spent a lot of time there. Yeah. I don't know that I grew up. I mean, I grew up in Washington, D.C. But, you know, when I when I decided that I wanted to act, you know, I went to school to play sports and I played I played baseball in college. I couldn't finish basketball.

uh, college and definitely, uh, found myself in a good bit of trouble. Um, I met a wonderful woman was sort of my first acting teacher. And I, I went to her and I really had no exposure to, uh,

You know, being an artist, being an actor, and I didn't really understand if it was any different than being a plumber or being a doctor. You know, what are the steps that I need to take? And she told me, look, if you could audition for this theater school in Moscow, you know, for her, it was the sort of best path. And I think a big part of her strategy was for me to get away from, you know, my knucklehead friends back in the day.

So wait a minute, she was like, you are such a troubled student that she was like, not only do we need to get you out of this school, out of this neighborhood, out of this, maybe this city, state, we need to get you out of the country. She was like, it was like, you know, when I went to Moscow, I was there for two years.

I didn't have an internet account. You know, there's no cell phones. You know, I just, I literally just went. And... Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. How? I mean, look, we obviously know Stanislavski is in all of the heritage of it. But how did, of all of the places she could have sent you, it was Moscow. Yeah.

Yeah, the Moscow Art Theater. I mean, I think, you know, she had this unbelievable love for Russian theater and for Eastern European theater. And it was the Moscow Art Theater, Stanislavski's Theater, Michael Chekhov's Theater, Anton Chekhov's Theater. It's got a great theater school. It's enormously disciplined theater.

And I think as a young guy, you know, an athlete, a boxer, I think she knew I would really, really respond to the discipline of it. It was enormously brutal, enormously beautiful, but brutal at the same time. And I think Russia in general, you know, at that point in the late 90s and early 2000s, it was a wild place, but it was...

for a guy who sort of thought he was street smart and thought he was a little bit tough, you know, going to Moscow was completely eyeopening. And I think it was, you know, deeply, deeply formative for me in becoming a man and becoming an artist. It's a, it's a place where, you know, art is really revered. You know, there's a,

There's a statue on nearly every corner of Moscow of a playwright or an actor or a painter. And it's a very masculine profession. I think as a young man, something I just responded to deeply, you know, learning how to do acrobatics, learning how to do ballet, learning how to be in a situation where you really could fail, where a lot of, I think, amalgamated.

American theater training was a very coddling place. It was very sort of like if you can't really play sports and you can't really do this, you can always go to the theater where you can sort of be a tree and do no wrong. You know, Russia was very different. It was a school that you had to get in. They were constantly cutting people out. But if you made it through that school, you sort of...

you had a career, you know, you were funneled into the Russian theater system and that was a really big deal. And I'm just eternally grateful to her and I'm eternally grateful to the people, Russia, and the folks that I got to learn with and learn from.

What, um, walk me through like a day of the school that you would think I'm, I would be like, what you studied that or you had to do this. I mean, it must've been, I mean, like you say, the difference between, you know, the frozen yogurt acting school of West Hollywood and,

and there must have been insane. Give me some contrast. Yeah, I mean, look, I think, I mean, there's so much different. I mean, I think, number one, it's not to disparage anybody who's in theater education in this country, but, you know, in Russia, the highest honor you can get is to be a teacher. So my teachers in Moscow were, you know, not just the most famous actors, but the most respected. You know, the top of the top. Oleg Tabakov was...

was my teacher, he would be sort of like the Robert De Niro of Russia, you know, a household name. You know, and you learn all kinds of things, training your attention, training your focus. You know, one of the first things you do is get a newspaper clipping, and you read it, you have to read a paragraph. And while you're reading the paragraph,

Everyone in the class is asking you questions. What color are your socks? What did you eat for breakfast? And you have to answer while you're reading.

Meanwhile, the teacher will sit there and clap and snap and cough. And when it's over, you've got to say, you've got to answer what everybody's questions were and what the answers were, how many snaps there were, how many coughs there were, and how many claps there were. And then you have to recite the monolith. And you can't get on to the next part of the curriculum until you can get through that. And that's just like the baseline. That's just like very, very beginning. That's so counterintuitive because you would think

That's designed to take you out of the moment when everybody in acting would tell you to be in the moment. I think what they would say to that is that you have to be on stage. You need to know your choreography. You need to know the perimeters of the stage. You need to be listening to your cues. Your heart needs to be open. But these are sort of the formative first things that you need to do before you get into it.

you know, opening up your heart, opening up your memory, digging into feelings from your past. And again, it was, it was very athletic. The training there was very, very athletic, you know, again, acrobatics and ballet and stage combat and learning rhythm. And, uh, I'm, I'm just grateful for it. And I think also, uh,

just sort of doing it within the setting of Russian. I think it's really apropos for what's going on now. You know, everybody that I came up with in Moscow had come up during communist times. And, you know, during communist times, there were absolutely, you know, public gatherings were outlawed. You know, you couldn't get a group of people together.

So there was state-sponsored theater, but in state-sponsored theater, it had to be pro-state productions. And once the state would sort of get wind or decide that your piece was not pro-state, actors were executed. I mean, Meyerhold, who's one of the most famous directors in Moscow, got assassinated right in his apartment.

Actors were jailed. My teachers, they put on a play in hiding. They did it in subway tunnels and in abandoned buildings. Had they been caught, they would have all been in jail. Anybody who came to see that play would have been put in jail. For them, it was enormously vital.

It was life or death. And again, I'm just so grateful that that's what I got to learn from. And I think when I look at it now, so many of the people that I studied with, so many of the artists that I know, they've been jailed. You know, they've been jailed for speaking against this war, for speaking against the state. And just like when I got back from Moscow, you know, 20 years ago,

I just have this deep, deep love and reverence for the place, for the soul of the place, for the artistic sort of community and strength of the place. But I also just so appreciated being an American and being, you know, and having what so many of us sort of take for granted. And we've got to protect these things. Free speech and speaking our mind and freedom of art. It's so unbelievably important and vital and crucial. And they don't have it there.

And, you know, I think that's hugely, hugely, hugely important and a huge factor in why what's going down in Ukraine is actually going down.

Yeah, I always feel like if we, as a country, and it's hard. It takes money and time and people work and not everybody has the ability to do it. But if we could travel more, I think a lot of our problems would go away because we would see how the other half lives as opposed to how we think the other half lives or whatever. And you were there. I mean, you got to go there. Yeah, couldn't agree with you more. So then you come back. I just love the notion of you saying,

My imagination of you going through that, learning that in Russia in that time, and then showing up for pilot season just makes me laugh. It's like, so tell me a little bit about yourself. Where did you study? You hit him with that. For me, man, with my big ears and my giant nose, it didn't get that far for so long, man. I feel like for so many years, you hear about being an actor and doors being slammed in your face, but

just sort of the palpable horror of casting directors when I would walk into rooms, you know, just with this face, you know, I just like, you know, cause it was all, you know, CW shows and soap operas. You know, that's just trying to get out of my car, you know, like I needed a place to live and, and, uh, you know, man, it was, uh, it was not looking good for a long time. Yeah.

I mean, it's funny because when I look at you and look at your work and look at like your whole presentation, I'm like, oh, this guy was fucking designed in a lab to do the stuff you do. I mean, to me, it's always different the way

It feels to, you know, it's like that old thing of never compare your insides to someone else's outsides. Right. You know, like I'm like, yeah, the Punisher. Fuck. Yeah. They fucking designed him to be the Punisher. For me, it's why I was, uh, you know, sort of just always so deeply grateful for, for, for walking dead. I just felt like, you know, when that, when that show came around, you know, I, I finally felt like I got to stick my teeth into something, you know, which, which,

which, you know, man, I, you know, as an actor to have something with a real beginning, middle and end and a character that's, that's nuanced and layered. And, and I just really felt from the beginning that this was something that, you know, I can, I, I, I can really dig into and, you know, Frank Darabont and then meeting the people, you know, involved with it and then going down to Georgia and shooting it the way that we did. Um, I'm just so, I'm so grateful to, to, to that show and be being a part of it. Cause it really did. Yeah.

You know, I mean, I think in this in this business, you know, there's people that make the mistake of thinking that something's going to change their life. And I don't think that it normally does so much of this. You can't control. That's the greatest part about this business. It's also the hardest part of this business.

That's what really changed my life. And it was right before I got married, right before I had my first kid. And I got to know these people like Andy Lincoln and Sarah Wayne Cowleys, who were these young artists with families that were super committed to their husbands and wives and to their children. And it's all I was ever looking for, man. And for me, really trimming off all the

fat in my life and just living kind of from my art and from my family, it's made me enormously happy. And I do. I'm super, super grateful for it.

Well, and it's funny because I remember when The Walking Dead first came out, Frank, and I spent some time with him. And when I was on the West Wing, he would show up every once in a while. He must have been friends with Sorkin, I think. And so I remember meeting him and I was always a fan, you know, but it was before he did Walking Dead. And then

I will tell you that, and I believe that first season of Walking Dead, and look, it's one of the most successful shows of all time, stipulated, and it actually grew and grew and exploded. But for me, that first season and second season were the shit. Yeah, thanks. I mean, look, I think that this

the thing about it, it had such unbelievably humble beginnings. I mean, at that point, AMC was the network of Mad Men and Breaking Bad and was such sort of just prestige television show. And we were, we were the bastard stepchild. We're like a zombie show. And I remember going to, you know, like the Golden Globes and having, you know, those other shows sort of look at us and like,

Really? A zombie show? And, you know, we got a six episode pickup. I mean, you know, man, that is not a huge, you know. Not a vote of confidence. No, sir, man. No, sir. But, you know, we went there and it was like it was like a student film. We were we were we were in Georgia. You know, there are no trailers. There's no craft service. We ate lunch in the woods. But we were all so unbelievably connected to each other. And I think that when you take a group of people and you take.

uh, you know, an ensemble of, of, of actors and you put them in the woods and you'd say, okay, look, there's zombies out there. If one person isn't fully fricking committed to the fact that like any noise will attract zombies, it just brings the whole shit down. And I just think we were so blessed and, and, and Frank was so good at sort of choosing who he chose, uh, that, you know, it was people who just really were willing to throw everything into that.

And I think, I don't know if you've had this experience, but for me, those experiences that have been enormously righteous and when things have really worked out, it's also the group of people that I've become closest with. And I don't know if you've found that too, but the people in The Walking Dead are some of my closest friends in the world. Well, that kind of leads me to my next question is, how did you navigate when Frank was no longer with the show? Was that a big deal? I would think it would have had to have been, right? It killed me, man. It did. And it was...

you know, an enormous lesson, enormous lesson sort of in Hollywood to somebody who just, you know, look, I think there's so many lessons on that show. You know, I was finally sort of on the, I had this great character on this hit show that people were actually watching and then they killed me, you know, like, and I knew I was going quick. Um, so that was a big lesson, but I think the thing with Frank, um, I, I just, you know, for me, I just utterly couldn't,

comprehended. He was so good. His scripts were so good. So good. So good. And he's really a national treasure on artists. And I think

You know, we would get these scripts and we would know, don't even read them until they say revised by Frank Darabont, because every word would change. And then they would literally just like shoot off the screen. And, you know, when it happened, it was really sort of like a sinister event. You know, we were in Georgia and we all at lunch had to get in this group of vans. We got taken into this airplane hangar where there was no cell phone reception.

And they told us Frank was on his way to a meeting where he was going to get fired. And I remember people were trying to call him and warn him. And it was funny because we sort of divided in two camps. You know, everybody was so loyal to Frank. But, you know, for me...

you know, look a year earlier, you know, I was, I was like facing jail time. I was a complete mess. I still hadn't gotten sober. I wasn't engaged to my wife. I, I felt that sort of that period of my life in that show really saved my life. And I owed it all to this man. And I was like, look, if he's not here, we can't go on. And I think there was one faction of the group that

that said, look, we got to walk out. Like if they're going to fire Frank, we got to walk out. And then there's this other faction of the show that was sort of like, look, if we leave, the crew doesn't have jobs. And there wasn't that much work in Georgia at that time. And the show sort of needs to go on. And it was getting to be pretty contentious among this group of people that absolutely loved each other. And love is still there. But it was right at the time where there's also sort of this

contentious feeling in the story of the show where there was sort of the Shane camp and the Rick camp. And strangely, it all kind of like played into all that. But, you know, as, as that sort of developed and went on, it was a huge lesson for me. It made me see that these things are often so much more complicated than we ever know. And these decisions all happen in, you know, air conditioned rooms that, you know, actors aren't invited into most of the time, but, you know, I,

I think it's important to stand up for what you think is right in this business. I think it's important to, I think sadly, the spaces and the projects where, you know, sort of the hierarchy of who has a voice and who doesn't have a voice between crew and cast member and directors and showrunners.

I think those projects are often don't come off as good as projects where everyone has a voice and everyone is sort of there together. I think it's the most beautiful thing about what we do is that, you know, we all get together people from all walks of life, all races, all religions, all sexual orientations, all political persuasions. You got teamsters, you got grips, you got actors, you got hair and makeup folks, and you all come together on this creative endeavor. And it's one of the most beautiful things to be a part of when you're all

there for each other and a part of a team listening to each other and there is no hierarchy. Just get the best directors, the best filmmakers in my mind that I've gotten to work with. I'll just pulverize all that bullshit and realize how toxic it is. But look, I think everybody deals with it in every business and it's tough. It was a big lesson for me.

Well, you know, I, and it's funny because the, did you feel, well, they killed you. So you were kind of not really around to, to, to be in the, what the show morphed into. For me, it was a different, it was really a different show. I felt like if you, like you watch years one and two and then say, watch four and five. For me, it's, it's a really same people.

But it's definitely different. It's a little bit like West Wing after Aaron Sorkin left. I can only imagine. Aaron Sorkin's gone. I'm gone. So I didn't pay much attention to the John Wells version of the West Wing. But it's the same people. But it's a different show. When you have an iconic voice like a Darabont or a Sorkin, and now no matter who comes in after that, it's going to be a different show. ♪

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While you still can. Ba-da-ba-ba-ba. At participating McDonald's for a limited time while supplies last. How did you feel about not being on West Wing? I mean, did you, like, what was that feeling like for you? I mean, the relationships had all run their course, right? It was like there was...

nothing really left to, to mine. Right. In terms of the, the relationships and the show was going in a, in a, in a direction that I could see exactly where it was heading. And I, I'd done everything I could do. Uh, and, and I think Aaron obviously felt the same way. Cause he, he left, I think, I don't know, it was like,

six weeks after I left, I think. So, you know, and you kind of go, you know, it's always better to leave on top, right? I'm sure what you had, you know, that I didn't have is just sort of like my first job. Like, I didn't know. I was like, oh, fuck. Okay, so this is it. Like, this is sort of the career, you know, you, you know, and you're, you know, Rob Lowe. I just think that, you know, for me, it's...

I was so grateful and still am so grateful for being a part of that show and fostering the relationships that I've had. But I'm also looking back so enormously grateful

for leaving when I did and getting off that show and for the opportunities that I've had since then. And, and, and, you know, you always say like, if you could wish and you could go back and sort of talk to that, you know, younger version. I mean, I was, I was so scared. I just was so like, of course, you know, of course you finally get on a hit show and then it all, but you know, that's, um, that's just like not the way that you should be looking at this. I think.

No, you never know what's going to come. And by the way, then, so you're in one of my favorite movies that I always tell people, ask them if they've seen it. A lot of people saw it, but a lot of people didn't. And Wind River. It's one of my favorite movies of all time. That movie, if you haven't seen Wind River, it is absolutely fantastic.

You're fantastic. Everything about it is, I mean, I could go on and on and on and on about it. And, you know, it's obviously Tyler Sheridan. And, you know, he's now gone on to, you know, Yellowstone and so many amazing things. But Jesus, that movie is fucking bad ass. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, I love, I love Taylor. You know, I've gotten to work with him three times, first on Sicario and then

And then on those that wish me dead, but, but, you know, wind river was the first one that, that, that he directed. And, you know, he, he,

It was such a wonderful experience. And I don't know, it really fell into kind of exactly what I love to do more than anything else as an actor. It was just like, you know, for me, man, that was one day of shooting. And it was literally like, he called me up. He said, look, this is going to be an acting exercise. He was literally like from Russia. He said, I want you to open a trailer door and I want you to be, everyone in the movie has to think you're the bad guy. And then I'm going to let you write a monologue

where in the course of that monologue you've got to convince everybody that you're the good guy and then you need to have this terrible violent event take place but you got to make it look like anything different would have happened that it wouldn't happen like it can't be that's right can't be premeditated it's got to exist in the moment and we just sat there was a 22 hour day on set it was their last day of shooting we just shot the whole thing and it was you know the

The thing about Taylor, he started out as an actor, and then he wrote Sicario, and he's just a guy I would follow anywhere. Yeah, 100%. I would follow that guy anywhere. He gets it from everybody's point of view, and he's a brilliant guy, and I have so much respect for his work ethic and his ability to take risks. Yeah, I was really grateful to be a part of that group.

I mean, the performances in it. I mean, Renner has never been better. And everybody has their big speech, which I love. But Renner's big speech is insane. Just insane. Elizabeth Olsen, totally 100 billion trillion percent believe her as that FBI agent. And that's really hard to pull off. 100%. I mean, everybody can pull off the movie FBI agent. Right. That's easy to do.

And it's perfectly great. She's actually a real FBI agent. I agree. I agree. And the standoff shootout sequence, I don't think there's ever been a better shootout sequence ever on film. Ever. Yeah. Ever. It's a cool film, man. It's a really great film. And again, just...

You know, to be sort of this actor on Sons of Anarchy that's kind of like frustrated telling other people's stories and then say, you know what, man, I'm just going to go take a shot. I'm going to go write something. And then you write Sicario. And then you say, ah, you know what, I'm going to give it a whirl. I'm going to try to direct something. Then you direct Wind River. And then I'm going to run a TV show. And then it's Yellowstone. I mean, that's Taylor Sheridan. You know, my son's an actor slash writer. And it's like...

Being an actor today, if you can write, you should also be writing. And by the way, you might not even know you can write until you start. That's right.

And like, I just, again, I love, listen, I love the notion of my, my boy, Billy Bob Thornton sitting in some trailer and some shithole on location and Canada and some piece of crap that he, he'll never even remember in his honey wagon and, and, and making faces in the mirror. And the next thing you know, he wrote, he writes Sling Blade. And wasn't that, wasn't Sling Blade a Larry Moss exercise? Yeah.

Oh, that's so interesting. I know the story I know is that he had that character, but it had come from him being bored and literally making faces in a honey wagon. Wow. And then wrote a short film.

And then the short film then went to awards and stuff and then used the short film to make the money, to drum up the money for the, for the long film of Sling Blade. Just watch it again the other night. It's and, and, um, oh my God. Uh, everybody isn't John Ritter's insane in it. And, um, Dwight Yoakam is on so good, but leave a book. And how about the, the kit?

Oh, and, but you know what it is though? It's like you say, it's the direction, the direct, you know, Billy directed it. Taylor directed wind river because that shootout sequence directed by somebody else.

This is just a shootout sequence. You know, that's your sequence directed by somebody else. And by the way, it would probably be really good, but it wouldn't be that. No, no way. It's a crazy push and pull of having an idea, trying to execute your idea, and being free enough in the moment to let people, you know, fly, let people explore. And I don't know if you've had the same experience, but for me...

You know, the really, truly wonderful directors that I've worked with, they're all so different. They come at it so differently and they have such different temperaments. But the one thing that's absolutely uniform in all of them is they've done the work. They know the story. They know what they want. But they're so free. They so respect the moment. There's this absolute...

you know, just, just, just, just feeling of electricity and that anything can happen on set on the day. And, and you just get, you know, that's, that's what we do it for. And, and they, they, they nurture that and, and they, you know, they cultivate that. And, and I really find it in all of it. Well, that brings me to Oliver Stone. Okay. My Oliver moment is you, you were in the nine, what's the actual title of the nine? World Trade Center. World Trade Center. Oliver. So Oliver,

Like when I was coming up, Oliver was making Platoon and all of those things. And like, you know, Charlie was like my baseball buddy, Sheen. And the next thing you know, he's like a big movie star. I'm like, wait, why didn't, does Oliver not have my phone number? I could have gone to the Philippines. I know Johnny Depp's in it. And all these guys are like bubbling up and now they're great. And so I finally get my moment to work with Oliver. And it's going to be Al Pacino as Noriega. Mm-hmm.

And me is Oliver North. And so we do this big table reading. We took a break halfway through and I'm at the water fountain getting water and Oliver comes over and he looks at me and just shakes his head, like sort of like vaguely disgusted and disappointed. And I get like, obviously super nervous, like, whoa, what's that? Hey, how do you think it's going? He goes, and he puts his hand on my shoulder and looks right in my eyes and goes, I just thought,

It would be bigger. And I'm like, oh, oh, oh.

okay. So then I'm like that mother and I'm like, okay, all right. You want, you want bigger? You want bigger? All right, I'll give you bigger. And so I was seated next to him at the table reading. And, and so we come back from the break and I don't, whatever my first line was, I just give it. And I just see Oliver kind of laughing to himself and smiling. But like, that was his version of directing the movie never got made because there was,

half of it was super cool and everything you thought you wanted. You know what I mean? And then the other half was like a treatise on communism in Central America. It was very clear when it got to that, whatever act that was, that no one was going to go see this movie. And I could just see Al Pacino's eyes rolling up in his head. And nothing ever came from it. But that was my moment in the sun with Oliver Stone. His bedside manner is definitely very different than any other director, don't you think? No question. And, you know, for me, I had him...

I had him so early. I mean, he literally, it was the first movie I ever did. And, you know, five years after 9-11. So it's just like such a, you know, sort of just heavy project. It plays itself. You know what I mean? Yeah, it does. But, you know, I remember, I remember,

I was doing the movie and at the same time I was doing this sort of crazy comedy called Bar Stars about the club scene in the San Bernardino Valley. And I mean, I literally couldn't be in a more different atmosphere. And I remember I was flying back and forth to New York to do the film and we were doing sort of like my biggest scene scene.

in the film. And, you know, I was playing real guy Chris Amoroso. And, you know, Oliver really, you know, to his credit, you know, really kind of shaped everything for me, at least as far as I research and jumping in because, you know, we were playing bus terminal Port Authority cops and Oliver brought us out six weeks early. He brought us to the Port Authority and, you know, he said, look, if you guys want to keep coming, you can come here every day. And I got to know Oliver

uh officer fairbanks and sergeant finney guys who i'm still close with i went out with them every single day to get to know you know chris and and this character chris amaroso is and um and i remember all i wanted to do is sort of reach out to his uh widow uh jamie and they he had the youngest widow of all the first responders and um at the end of my time sort of researching with these guys they

they took me to Jamie and introduced me and I was just so grateful for it. And I felt like so lived it. But I remember, you know, shooting this scene, Oliver, you know, we're shooting it all day long. And in the morning, he just was like loving everything I was doing. And I felt on top of the world and I got it. All of a sudden he just switched on me. Everything I was doing was terrible. And after every scene, he would like,

walk down the entire, you know, pretend concourse of the world trade center, you know, with this big plotting walk and you'd be like, it's terrible. It's too big. It's too much. And then next time, like, are you not doing anything? It's too small. And I just, I couldn't fucking win. And then obviously it was amazing. And then he comes to me and he says, where's your jacket? I go, what do you mean? Where's my jacket? He goes, you mean you're in the world trade center, nine 11, you're not wearing like a flak jacket. I said, look, Oliver, I,

you don't choose what you wear. There's like a, like every fleck of dirt is chosen by somebody, you know, like what are you talking about? He goes, ah, bullshit. You're just not wearing the jacket because you're too vain. He goes, that's a problem with all you young actors. And he said to Mike Pena, you're vain. He said to Armando, you're vain. But then to me, he's got these big thick fingers and put it like right in my face. He goes, you're the worst of all. He goes, you think you look good in that blue fucking suit? You're fucking vain. And honestly, Rob, like I didn't,

I just lost it at that point. I figured I was getting fired anyways. I'm pouring sweat. I'm so nervous. It's my first job. So I just smacked his hand out of my face. I said, let me tell you something, man. You might be Oliver Stone, but I will beat your ass, man. I'm a lot of things in this world, but I'm not fucking Bane. And he goes, and I said, I'll do your whole movie with a clown nose on my face. I'll do it with a bag over my head. I'm not Bane. And Oliver turned around and walked off the set. And like literally everything stopped.

And Nicolas Cage turned to me. He's like, wow, man, the way you handled that, you like adversity and through more adversity. I'm like, yo. And Mike Pena was like, look, John, like he just does that, dude. He just he's just fucking with you. You can't like threaten his life. And, you know, he came back about 20 minutes later and we did the scene. And then he said, hey, man, I want you to meet me after work tonight.

And he took me out to eat, man. And he said, he was like, you know, you're my favorite thing. You're a young actor with balls. And we became really, really close after that. And I don't think that's that. But, you know, man, I really did see that this like manipulation of the atmosphere and to like get you fucked up and get you, you know, I'm sure I had my whole performance planned. I'm sure I was saying it the exact same way. And he wanted to, he wanted to change it up. And, you know, ultimately I was grateful for it. But yeah, I thought that, I thought that was it, man.

Yeah, I mean, I'm glad to see that my experience isn't alone on that. I got to ask you about Fury because it's another movie I love. I work with Jim Perrick, who was in the movie as well. He's on my show, The

Lone Star, 9-1-1 Lone Star. He tells great stories about working with... David Ayer. Yeah, I mean, look, that movie, the process of that, I'm sure Peric has told you. I mean, it was unlike... Especially for us, that main kind of tank unit, you know, it was eight months. You know, it was... You know, there's no days off. Every exterior shot of the tank, we were really in that. We slept in the tank. We ate in this tank. We pissed in the tank. We shat in the tank. You know, it was...

It was an unbelievably sort of like all in psychologically, you know, look, you know, you do these sort of actor boot camps and you do these things where, you know, you're always operating under the umbrella of safety. You know, I think, you know, David himself is a combat vet. He really, really wanted to try to capture this feeling of,

you know, riding through hell in a tin box. And, um, you know what he put us through. There was, um, you know, the, the first three months we were there, we would, um, we do martial arts in the morning and we'd all have to fight each other. He does that on all his movies and makes everybody fight. I would have to fight the,

karate teacher and stunt guys and we do sort of like circle up and watch and you know he um he had a student six hours of tank training every single day um and and then there was just like a lot of sort of emotional manipulation and really getting people to break down and he had these navy seals there that took us through this you know mini buds course uh and and you know kevin vance the the navy seal who kind of was the military coordinator on that film still one of my closest friends um

They say there's nothing in the world closer than a tank unit because you're just in that space. You know each other so well, the way you smell, the way you can finish everybody's sentences before they're through with them. And that's really how I feel about the guys in that tank, Shia and Mike.

and Logan and Brad, you know, we, it was really like this deranged, insane family. And it's, I'm so grateful for that experience. You're so brought in to get, you're so, you're so galvanized. You so believe in what you're doing. And then it's almost like, again, like air, he said, he's a man. I would work with air anytime. I mean, like, I think any actor has a chance to work with him should jump on it.

you know, like the process that he puts out. You know, I was even talking to Will Smith when we did King Richard, you know, and he did Suicide Squad with him. You know, whatever happens with the film to work with air, he will just, it's an absolute like sort of journey in just being a psychopath. And I hear the stories I hear from Suicide Squad, because again, my friend Jim Parrick was Jared Leto's henchman in the movie.

And again, like he's capable of cutting people out of it. That's the other thing. He's like, if it doesn't work, you're gone. Unlike the Jared Leto got cut out of the movie. Yep. Yep. And there's no like nothing is he thrives on that. He thrives on this sort of madness. But I think the other thing that David does that I just loved was what he does is he puts the camera on you and then he sets everybody loose on you.

So he spends all this time, you know, talking and everyone's sort of divulging their own history and their own, the complications in their past, their family. And then he wants, he puts a camera on you and then you're supposed to attack that person. So, you know, Shia just going after Brad and closeups and, you know, the, the, the,

your hands start to shake, tears start to come out because we are literally ripping each other apart. And then afterwards you're like, shit, man, what did I just fucking do? What did I just say? But it is that. And like, by the way, man, you're making a movie about World War II. It's like, you should be doing it. I mean, it shouldn't be comfortable. It should be toxic. But that was as crazy and insane and toxic an environment as I can imagine. But I wouldn't change it for the world. I love it.

All set for your flight? Yep. I've got everything I need. Eye mask, neck pillow, T-Mobile, headphones. Wait, T-Mobile? You bet. Free in-flight Wi-Fi. 15% off all Hilton brands. I'll never go anywhere without T-Mobile. Same goes for my water bottle, chewing gum, nail clippers. Okay, I'm going to leave you to it. Find out how you can experience travel better at T-Mobile.com slash travel.

So for sure, the wire has to be the most influential wire.

that you hear amongst people at the highest levels who make television. It's not open for debate. It's like, you know, it's always the wire. The wire, the wire, the wire, the wire. So now that you're on We Own This City, which is, you know, from Simon, right, who created The Wire, what has that been like for you to be in that sort of legacy? Look, I think more than anything else, I mean, for me, I think whether

whether it's a, you know, no judgment, whether it's a good thing or a bad thing. I try to not concern myself with, um,

you know, things like that, that I can't control at all. It's a huge honor to work for David Simon, George Palacanos, an enormous honor to be sort of included in that Baltimore based crew that made The Wire. It's a family there. Baltimore is an unbelievably beautiful and brutal city. And it's sort of at the tip of the spear of so many issues that are deeply, deeply important to me and that I've had a lot of real life

experience with and that's issues of race issues of policing police corruption police brutality um look i'm i'm enormously grateful uh to not just be a part of the show but to be able to

approach those issues with really diving into the wound and really, you know, the way those guys work is they work with journalistic integrity. So as you know, so many of the times you go into a scene and the goal is to try to make the scene as, you know, the stakes as high as possible, try to make it as interesting as possible, as dramatic as possible, as funny as possible, as electric as possible. But with those guys, it's this blend of journalism and entertainment that

Well, what they really want to do is they just want to tell the truth. And we're shooting in the real places where it really happened, oftentimes with the real victims or with real cops. And it's just a, it's a way of working that I'm so grateful for. And, you know, for me, you know, playing sort of the,

probably the most corrupt cop in the history of Baltimore, a real guy who's really in prison, who, you know, everyone in that city knows. I mean, he was just indicted a few years ago. You know, going to the police department and say, hey, we're going to tell this story. We want to tell this story as sort of the ugliest chapter of your department.

If that was made by any other filmmakers, they would sort of tell you to fuck off. But, you know, for me, because it was The Wire, it gained, it allowed me to have access. You know, for three months, I was on ride-alongs every day. I went on ride-alongs with, you know, aggressive plainclothes unit police officers.

every single day in every single district of the city. I got to go on raids with the drug raids with the Baltimore SWAT team. And mostly it's got to form these unbelievable relationships with guys that really knew Wayne, that knew my character. And I got this unbelievable access, made friends for life. I got sort of a front row seat to, again, explore these issues that, like I said, are deeply important to me. So I think that like,

you know, I think like the wire, I think this show is not about sort of being the most popular show on television right now. It's about lasting. And I think that's what you get when you try to tell the truth. And that's what we're doing with this show. And, um, I'm really proud of it and I'm really grateful to be a part of it. I mean, again, there, there are only so many greats in the world and he's, he's one of them. Um,

I appreciate you. I hope we get a chance to cross paths again someday and additional circumstances. This was awesome. I'm looking forward to We Own the City and the podcast. You've got a lot going on, and thanks for coming by, man. I really appreciate it. I really appreciate you having me, man. Like I said, I'm a huge fan, just a huge admirer, bro. I could have talked to him for a lot longer time. What a great dude. That's the kind of guy you want to end up on a set with, for sure.

on a location with stuck in some hell hole and some tank. I think being a movie star is all sushi and sunglasses. Now we know it's not. Anyway, ring, ring. What's that? Oh, it's the lowdown line. Hello. You've reached literally in our lowdown line where you can get the lowdown on all things about me, Rob Lowe. 323-570-4551.

So have at it. Here's the beep.

Hi, Rob. This is Terry from Minneapolis. Hey, thanks so much for doing the podcast. I listen to a lot of podcasts, and yours is my favorite, probably because I think you're a very good host. Like you, I've been sober for many years, and I really appreciate hearing your insights on recovery. And my question is, have you ever played a character who was an alcoholic or addict? And if so, did your personal experiences help with their role?

Thanks so much and keep up the good work. Well, Terry, first of all, thank you for super kind words. And I really appreciate hearing from folks that they like the show. It really means a lot to me. It truly does. So thank you for that. So, bro, I have got a little piece of filmography for you to go watch to answer your question. I did a movie. Oh, my God.

I did a movie called I Melt With You. It is a very obscure indie shoestring budget by the great director Mark Pellington, who is known for his music videos with REM and Pearl Jam and on and on and on. And it's the story of addiction. It's a movie about a group of men who are going through midlife crises and

And are on a drug bender together on an isolated rented Airbnb on the Big Sur coast. I will warn you that it is the darkest movie you may ever see. And my character is a doctor, a

is also prescribing drugs to people. And I do more pills and blow and drink and I'm up all night and girls show up and it's just on and on and on. And it, you know, I was probably 25 years sober when I made it. And I felt high. Shot all night long, three nights like in a row, music and dancing. And it was very small crew. And by the time

There were times when I was like, this feels so real to me and sort of, if I can be totally honest, kind of exciting and wildly depressing all at once. It's not for everyone. It bears the honor of having the most legendary screening at Sundance Film Festival.

I think 30% of the audience walked out. It's one of those movies that when I read the script, I was like, if we do this right, half of the people in any given audience will walk out. That's how dark it is. But it's super good and I'm super proud of it. But it is not for everyone. Anyway, so there's that. And you're always asked to play drunk. That always happens. My biggest fear is that they...

When I asked for non-alcoholic beer that they give me real beer and that's happened a couple of times. But, you know, look, as I've said a number of times, you know, being in recovery for as long as I have been has made me a way better actor, way better person, way better everything. So anytime I get to hear a fellow brother or sister out there checking in, congratulations on your recovery.

And, you know, as always, if anybody's out there struggling, there is tons of hope and there is tons of successful stories of people whose lives changed. And I'm sending you all prayers. And thank you for calling. More to come on next week's Literally. Don't forget to subscribe to the rest of our show. Don't forget Five Star Review.

on Apple. Super, super helpful and a great way you can give back to us. All right. See you next week.

You've been listening to Literally with Rob Lowe, produced by me, Rob Schulte, with help from associate producer Sarah Begar. Our coordinating producer is Lisa Berm. Our research is done by Alyssa Graw. The podcast is executive produced by Rob Lowe for Low Profile, Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross, and Joanna Salataroff at Team Coco, and Colin Anderson at Stitcher. All of the music you hear is by Devin Bryant. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week on Literally with Rob Lowe.

This has been a Team Coco production in association with Stitcher.

All set for your flight? Yep. I've got everything I need. Eye mask, neck pillow, T-Mobile, headphones. Wait, T-Mobile? You bet. Free in-flight Wi-Fi. 15% off all Hilton brands. I never go anywhere without T-Mobile. Same goes for my water bottle, chewing gum, nail clippers. Okay, I'm going to leave you to it. Find out how you can experience travel better at T-Mobile.com slash travel.

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