No Identity, No Progress, No Point? | The Midweek Debate
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Hello and welcome to the Manchester is Red podcast. This is the midweek debate. We've had a little mini hiatus, I think. We've been gone for a week and a half or maybe two. I had a week off. I think Tyrone Marshall, who I'm sitting here with today, I think he had a week off as well, but we're back. I'm sure you'd be delighted to hear. Tyrone, how are you? I'm good, Stephen. It must be three weeks. Three weeks at least, I think, since we did a podcast. Well, I think I did a special one, didn't I? Absolutely brilliant. Yeah.

Any time that I don't get to see you for is actually a very good time. Yeah, exactly. Don't miss you, to be fair. Shame you're back in my life today, but there we are. We've got a new clock in the studio. Obviously, watch us on YouTube, warn people to see. It's got the temperature on. It says 19 degrees, but it's definitely not 19 degrees in here. No, it's cold in this room, isn't it? I remarked on that before. It actually said 18 degrees. This is my...

Second podcast of the day, having done the Talking City podcast earlier today, and it's at 18. How's the voice? The voice is holding up, surprisingly. I won't be able to talk when I get home, but no one talks to me in my house anyway, so that'll be absolutely fine. Apparently it's getting warmer, but I don't believe that. We are going to focus in on the summer transfer window in the first part of this podcast. We've agreed that today. Just chat about a few transfer bits, what a good window would look like for United.

who they might sell to fund those transfers. And then in the second section, as usual, if you've listened to this podcast, you know we'll have a bit more of an informal chit-chat. We'll look back at the Wolves game just gone at the weekend and look ahead briefly to the Cherries on Sunday afternoon down on the South Coast. Yeah, so let's get cracking. Big news this week, last couple of days, Matthias Kuhne and Liam De Lappe are emerging as

very big targets for United. We presume Liam Dillap would be. We'll start with Kuna though, because he plays for Wolves, just at Old Trafford on the weekend. Bit of an audition. I was at the game on Boxing Day at Molineux. I don't know if you remember if you watched it, Ty, you might have been at City, but he trapped the ball.

Oh, and it was just, it was stunning. And everyone gasped. It was a beautiful piece of skill. So if United decided they wanted to sign him on the back of that, then fair enough. That's how I would base my transfer strategy too. He's a brilliant player in all seriousness. 16 goals in all competitions this season. He's got some European heritage because he's been at Hertha Berlin, RB Leipzig, Atletico Madrid, of course, as well. And he would, let's face it, improve United's attack.

Yeah, he definitely would. He definitely would. I think it's a real interesting one. He fits Amarim's system perfectly because he's essentially playing the exact same role for Wolves as a number 10 in what is pretty much the exact same system. But...

He's a bit of a maverick, I think. And I was talking to a Wolves fan, I was at City last night, I was talking to a Wolves fan in the press room before the game and said, I don't, I think it's easy for Cunha to be like a big fish. He's an ideal big fish in a small pond where he's kind of given licence to go where he wants. Like at Old Trafford on Sunday, he played the left-sided number 10 role, but he was everywhere really. He wasn't in that position that often. He goes looking for the ball and he is that,

You know, there's almost, the Wolves fan is kind of saying it's almost, it's too far of a leap, but shades of Cantona are about him and he is that kind of like, free-spirited, like, maverick player. And maybe that's what United need, but I was reading the piece he'd done and,

interesting Sky stats that he spent more time walking this season than any other Premier League player I think it's actually a valid stat but I saw someone make a good point that are these stats only trotted out when United sign players you rarely see that with players do you but I actually think it's a valid stat yeah well United are the one that sign in the player that doesn't run and they're signing in for a manager who's just said

that, well, I haven't said it, but everyone knows it, that the biggest issue in this team is the lack of intensity. So I think there's an interesting balance there. And, you know, you mentioned Kunya before. He's got European pedigree. He was at Atletico Madrid and it didn't work out for him. He's much more experienced now. He's more mature now. I think he's a brilliant, brilliant footballer. I would love to see him play for United because I think he's... He's entertaining. He's entertaining. He's great to watch. But I do think he would have to adapt from...

I get the impression that he's good at being that, like I say, that big fish in a small pond who's kind of given license to, you know,

don't, you don't always have to do the pressing or the tracking back. You're our, you're our match winner. Go and do that. And I think at United, he would have to fit in to a more rigid tactical system and not just at United, even if he'd gone to, you know, a lesser club like Newcastle or another one of the big sixes, big six clubs as Arsenal were interested in him. Another one of the big clubs. Yeah. Um,

he would have to change and adapt. He becomes part of the system rather than almost standing outside the system, if you know what I mean, which he does at Wolves. And I think he clearly can adapt. All footballers at that level can adapt. And like I said, in a way, the most important thing is that he fits this tactical system and he would get that. But I think he would have to change as well and become part of the collective rather than like an individual in a way. And you talk about that and it kind of,

people highlight his attitude kind of problems or concerns i should say there's a great area there um and does that not kind of relate to how kind of maybe how hard he works on the pitch perhaps it's definitely a question mark having said that he is 25 years old he's proven in the premier league

He's done it. We've seen it with our own eyes that he can operate in this country against very good teams. And he's been excellent in a really crap Wolves side. I mean, United are below Wolves. Are they below? No, sorry, just above. They're level on points. Yeah, I was checking the table today. It's not been good.

But he does tick a lot of boxes, but there are some that he doesn't tick, which you're right, it makes it an interesting transfer, doesn't it? Yeah, definitely. And, you know, I guess you never, the market, United are going to have to shop in this summer. They're probably not going to get a player who ticks every box. But I'm sure if Kunja is told, keep doing what you're doing at Wolves, but this is the way we press. This is the work you have to do off the ball. I'm sure he can do it. It's like I say, he's always struck me as that kind of maverick player who's,

ideal in a way you think he'd be more willing to do it as well I think he'd be more willing to do it I think he can do it he's he's an interesting player as well and like I say he's very he's very emotional I think on the pitch he's I mean hot-headed is probably a bit too much of a cliche he's had his disciplinary problems this season I think I think that's maybe a one-off I don't think that's really followed him around in his career particularly but obviously there was the headbutt of Bournemouth I think and then the

elbow in the back of the head of the, I think it's a security guard against Ipswich, wasn't it? When you knock the guy's glasses off, which, big no-no for me. Mathieu's big no-no. But, you know, he's, that, in a way as well, that's kind of what you need in some players. United, you know, we spoke about the lack of intensity in their running, but maybe you need that kind of

nastiness in a way as well it's a bit of a cliche but it goes kind of hand in hand with these South Americans South American players doesn't it and you think back to 10 Augs first season and they had that real kind of South American flair and grit that was like

They'd underpinned the team that, yeah, I mean, Martinez, Anthony, Casemiro. They all had that biting edge and they played on the line. And Kuno perhaps is the same. United don't exactly have a brilliant record buying Brazilians, but you can't write off a whole nationality just because of a few bad apples. No, you can't. And, you know, it's funny that Anthony, Anthony, Tanaka said in his first season that what he'd identified in his first summer was again, this lack of,

intensity in players this lack of an edge the lack of kind of character and personality on the pitch and a lot of his signings went went to changing that Casemiro and Martinez were real winners and Anthony bought that kind of you know a bit of a an arrogant streak a nasty streak a competitive streak on the pitch and you know it's funny in a way that we're now back under Amorim and he's kind of privately saying the same things that the team hasn't got the

to carry out his demands. But that's why he likes Mason Mount so much, just to go a little bit off topic, but he's come on and he had back-to-back yellow cards. He's got that edge. He's got that kind of, but I think he's actually been criticised in the last week and a half because people are watching him come on in games and just kick people. But I like that about him, man.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's probably underrated part of his game. But yeah, I think he needs people like that. But most important, I think the biggest thing he loves about Mount is his ability to press as a number 10 and his intelligence of who and when to press. And maybe that's the one area of Kunio's game that we probably don't really see that much at Wolves. But the area of his game where he'd have to change to...

to fit in at United, but he clearly can. And the most important thing is that the guy's a match winner. The guy can win games on his own. And you look at this United squad, Bruno Fernandes is the only match winner in that squad. And if you're going to be successful to the level United want to be successful, you have to have more match winners, more players capable of, when the team's not playing well, of bailing them out of trouble, of when you underperform, when you're having an off day, you've got

two or three players who can just do something, grab the game by the scruff of the neck and win it on their own. And I think Kunja is that kind of player. We agree. It'd be a good saying. And I think we both agree on that. Let's move on then because the striker position is actually something we do disagree about. I think we've talked about on this podcast before, Liam De Lappe, we kind of got into him a little bit and Victor Osherman. We'll talk about both of their credentials now. You're more in the De Lappe camp and more in the Osherman camp. And,

I'm not saying that De Lappe isn't a fantastic talent and hasn't got a huge ceiling because he clearly does. He's got 12 goals in the Premier League this season in a rubbish, it's which side. So he's clearly got a bright future. And I've saw comparisons with Harry Kane and people say, well, if you want a future Harry Kane, sign him now.

But we've spent two and a half years on this podcast and writing articles talking about the lack of experience centre-forwards and how they can't score goals. And I just think it would be suicidal, asking for trouble for a third successive summer not to sign another experienced striker. And I think Osherman is that man. Yeah, I mean, I don't... If they sign Osherman, I don't think they've got it wrong by any stretch of the imagination. I think part of... Like you say, part of the reason you're against the lap is because of what's happened previously. But...

Part of the reason it's, you know, just because it's not worked out with Hoyland and Xerxes doesn't mean it won't work out with the last. He's 22. There's four days between himself and Hoyland. He could come into the club, score a few goals. Inevitably when things are tough and maybe a few bad results, there's stories that are done. The press are starting to talk about it. There's pundits who are highlighting his performances.

The pressure at United is enormous and it makes players crumble. And I think if you're young, it's so difficult to deal with. Yeah, but I mean, it could make experienced players crumble. It could make Osman crumble and underperform. And Osman's never played in the Premier League and it is a big difference. I mean, what Osman has done at Galatasaray this year will have no bearing on coming into United. He can score two goals a week against, I don't even know how many teams there are in the Turkish league, to be honest, but essentially, apart from Fenerbahce, Besiktas and Arsenal,

maybe Istanbul, Basak, Zahir, he's filling his boots against every other team. It's totally irrelevant. It's like playing against championship teams, maybe League One teams at the bottom end of that league. And you look at the Galatasaray squad and then you look at the squads at the team at the bottom of that league. The gap is huge. It's the same with Rocares at Sporting. You fill in your boots. He has scored in the Champions League for Napoli. He has scored in the Europa League this season against Tottenham. He was impressive against Tottenham in that game. Yeah, you know, like I say, I think his record's good and I don't think he's necessarily...

The wrong signing. But you'd rather De Lappe? I think De Lappe's a quality player and I think he's got, I think for 30 million, he's got a huge amount of potential. And I get the point that they've signed. I mean, the Hoyland signing was a joke. It was an absolute joke. The guy had had four good months. They paid £72 million for him. Having told people two days before they wouldn't go over 60. It was a classic case of United being absolutely played and conned by a club. Atalanta saw Paris Saint-Germain in for him.

If you read the papers, Paris Saint-Germain are in for him. Suddenly John Mertes is in an Atalanta hotel till 3am in the morning concluding the deal. I mean, Atalanta must have left that. Back in that hotel. Well, yeah. They must have left that meeting and absolutely, you know, laughed their sides off, shall we say. They must have left thinking, how easy are this club to fleece? Like, how can they be played like this? And they staggeringly overpaid for Hoyland, who, like I say, he had...

You know, he'd had a few good months for Atalanta. That's essentially all it was. Is De Lapp not had a few good months for Ipswich? I think he's had a good season. He's had a good season for Ipswich. But he scored 12 Premier League goals. Hoyland last season scored 10 Premier League goals.

Yeah, he scored 10 primary goals for Manchester United. That United side were very bad. Obviously, the finished what? I mean, they were a hell of a lot better than this Ipswich side. But they're still pretty bad. Yeah, but so the lap scored more in a much worse side. I'm not denying that he's got a huge upside. And for 30 million, I can see why he ticks a lot of boxes for a lot of people. I just think

how often we've talked about it and every fan has talked about it. It would just be unbelievable to talk about they need an experience at the forward, they need a proven goalscorer and then go and make the same mistake again. I just think it would be, it'd be comical. I actually think in a bad way. I don't think Osterman's

a guarantee of goals. I don't think you put Osman in that team and you guarantee him 25 goals a season. I don't see it. In the current market, he's the closest thing to a guarantee on the current market, I believe. And you can see, I understand you talk about the Turkish division and the standard of it, but

But 30 goals in 35 appearances, he's only done what he can. He's proved his well-being, essentially. I mean, you stick Hoyland in that Galatasaray team, he'd have got 20, 25 goals. It's over 75 goals. I think it's 76 in 120-ish appearances for Napoli. Yeah, yeah. There's no doubt he's been excellent for Napoli. I'm not denying that. And I do think he's a good player. I just don't think he's guaranteed to come in and score the goals. And...

I think when you add wages and transfer fee up, he will be a much, much bigger outlay than De Lappe to the point that you compromise in a position somewhere else. But that's the most important position on the pitch right now. And it arguably always is. They need goals and it's not something you can kind of risk. Yeah, it is. Are they really going to rule the dice? It is the most important on the pitch. But in a way, as I've been saying recently, it doesn't matter who's up front for this United team. They don't create any chances. So it doesn't matter who's up front for them. So yes, it's the most important position on the pitch, but...

They also need players like Acuna who can create something. They need better wingbacks who can create something. They need a better system of play and patterns of play that can create something. You know, we've been through this debate previously that, and I think there's, you know, we were talking about Hoyland as part of the conversation about Acuna last night. And I think there's a bit of Hoyland isn't smart enough yet and hasn't developed enough to create chances for himself, which I think the lap has proven he can do at Ipswich. But also,

He just doesn't get chances. You know, we would go back to that 21 game run without a goal. I think he had 14 shots. That's laughable. And that's not solely on him. That's not because he's turning down shooting opportunities. You know, watch him during a game. There must be three or four occasions every game when he just waves his hands in the air. I mean, you watch him during a game and he looks like he absolutely hates playing up front for Manchester United. And I can see why. Because you don't get any chances. What I get about that is I don't... So yeah, you put Osserman in this team and he'd probably score more goals because he's more experienced than Hoyland.

but he wouldn't score 25 in this team because this team don't create 25 chances for a striker across the season but next season he'd score more goals than Zilop in my opinion do you know what that's the thing and it's we could be right you could be wrong we'll never get to find out we'll just have to presume I'm right it's a game of opinions at the end but I will be right in the end and

In terms of other positions, Ty, I think we both would agree that they need a midfielder as well. Would you agree with that? Am I jumping to conclusions too quickly? Yeah, a holding midfielder. Yeah, not a number 10, of course, because you've got too many number 10s. Too many number 10s, yeah. Casemiro, the need to be in Europe for him to be effective. Come on to him maybe a bit in this part. Yeah.

Collier has picked up a few injuries, a squad player, got Fernandes, Ugarte, but they need a midfielder, don't they? Another holding midfielder and a very good one at that. Yeah, I think, you know, if you want two players for every position, I think really they've only got three at the moment. Ericsson's leaving, of course. Ericsson's leaving. So, and I don't think he's great as a holding position player anyway. So you're looking at Fernandes. I suppose your four at the moment would be Fernandes, Ugarte, Casemiro and Collier. I think maybe you want Collier as your fifth choice at the moment.

And like we said, there's a lot of uncertainty over Casemiro's future. As good as he's been the last few months, you know, he's...

his wage is still massive and you can make the point that if they get back in the champions league if they win the europa league and get the champions league there's more games and there's more opportunity for him it's also a 25 pay rise if they get back in the champions league which which his wages but you need to want to buy him which is the thing and that's been the thing in the last window yeah that's the problem someone who would pay them where where's he going to go yeah um you know that i mean that is the problem but it's a 350 grand a week if they get back in the champions league that's

you know, what, 15, 15 to 17 million a year, something like that. It's a massive saving. So I think, yeah, I think they definitely need another holding midfielder because, I mean, I think Fernandes' future must be there now given the welcome you're in the group of teams. Well, that's what's really interesting. We talked about that on the podcast because I'm not sure it is. He's been very good in that role and he's sparked up a really good relationship with Ugali. If this player comes in who we're seeing the need to sign, right, so a really high quality, pardon me, defensive midfielder, holding midfielder,

Do they start alongside Ugarte? Or does Ugarte drop out of the side? Or do they start alongside Fernandes? Either way, you need to have that strength. But in terms of who actually starts, it's an interesting one again. Yeah, I think if you've got a proper... I mean, Ugarte-Fernandes is a nice balance because one's a kind of competitive defensive midfielder, one can set the tempo. So I think it depends who you sign. But if you signed a defensive midfielder, then I think there's an argument they could start ahead of Ugarte. I think he's been decent recently. I think...

still don't think he's great with the ball to be honest. Pretty mental that though isn't it that the fact that last summer they signed this player who said right this summer we've waited until we've got the right price we've negotiated it this is who we've got you've got it fantastic and then one year later we're talking about signing a player in his position is that

It's probably a bit of both, partly on him and partly on the midfield situation where Casemiro's in a Vierola, Eriksen's leaving. Probably a bit of both, isn't it? Yeah, probably a bit of both. And like I say, if they signed a player who was maybe at the same level as him, who was changing it out with him, that wouldn't bother me. I think there's much more pressure and issues in terms of who starts than... If you went into next season with Ugarte and Fernandes as your midfield again, I'd be perfectly happy with that, to be honest. But they do need...

you know like i say if casamiro goes erickson goes you're really looking at fernandez ugarte and collier as your only real options i think in those holding positions and at that point you clearly need another player who can play there because he doesn't seem to want to play any of the number tens there and you've got way too if you know when you sign when or if you sign kunya you've got way too many number tens to be honest and then i guess the fourth would be for me it'd be right wing back after that um

Dalot has actually played better in the last few weeks to be fair to him but he's not a natural right wing back and we've saw the difference with Dogu although slightly up and down again in the last few weeks what it what it means and the benefit of having the player who is tailor-made to that position the qualities are completely different to a natural fullback so they do need a player on that role don't they and then Dalot could compete to start with that player and that would be beneficial again yeah definitely and I think you know again it comes back to the two players for every position I I

I don't see Masraoui as a wing-back, to be honest. I don't think he can really play there. I think there's a significant drop-off and you're essentially playing a full-back, I think. I don't think he's got the skill set to play wing-back in a team that...

Amarim hopes United will be next year when they're dominating possession and dominating games and you want him. You know, Amarim referred to them as wingers after the Leicester FA Cup game, I think, when Dorgu, when he was questioned about Dorgu starting on the right and he referred to them as wingers and he mentioned wingers like Dalot. And if that's how he sees his wing-backs, I mean, Masraoui's not a winger. So I think you definitely need another wing-back.

right wing back to compete with Dalot. Like I say, I think Dalot, since he's been back on the right, I think he's been pretty good recently. He's still up and down. I think there's still probably a... He's just a very good, consistent squad player. He's a very good, consistent squad player, yeah. If you want to compete for top six... I think you probably want an upgrade, don't you? Yeah, I think that's fair. So we've just talked about it there. You can kind of picture what the team might look like next season with those kind of hypothetical signings. What about a goalkeeper? Well...

I said on the podcast I said it back you were making a case for a setback yeah that's got to have gone out of the window probably yeah I think because all positions really need to be addressed but it's in terms of what is the priority right now I mean even with Anala I said that you've probably got to kick the can down the road and still probably I'm probably of that belief still unfortunately I mean in an ideal world you get a new goalkeeper this summer but

Other positions probably need to be addressed before Inana. Yeah, I think the only way anything happens with Inana is if a Saudi club comes in for him and he wants to go. And then you get a decent money back for him and you can reinvest it in a keeper. But yeah, I think unless that happens, I think you're probably sticking with him, aren't you? Because I don't think you can, I don't think you can engineer a situation unless that happens. So Matthias Kuhne, let's say the Lapper Osherman, a centre midfielder and a right wing back. You can picture that team in your head.

Where does that team finish next season? It's so hard to make that prediction right now because we're sitting on the 23rd of April and we need to say that after the transfer window. But early prediction, when you think ahead to next season, what are your thoughts? It's really difficult because everyone else is going to improve as well. Yeah, they are. And the competition's fierce at the top end of this division. And the unknown is I'm a room assistant.

to be honest about it. And, you know, I know a lot of sportsmen like to hear it and he's, you know, he's a phenomenal communicator. He gets great backing from the fans. The fans want him to succeed. I want him to succeed. But we haven't seen enough

of that system working well to say that even with those players it's going to lead to a massive improvement i don't think still vito pereira at the weekend came in and obviously was it december at wolves yeah and he's taken a lot more points and he's used the same system yeah and that was highlighted at the weekend well why couldn't the van room have done it you're right though at the start of next season it's crucial united hit the ground running because if you get to end of september october time and things still aren't good

the finger will be pointed. Yeah, but this is kind of the, you know, he's changed his tune a bit on the coming in mid-season, which he's probably done because he's here now. So he kind of needs to put a positive spin on it. And he said, it's given me time to work with the players and,

get the message across. But what it's also done is it's not damaged his standing now, but if next season starts, and like you say, we get to the October international break, say, and they're bottom half and things are patchy, what has happened this season, which at the moment is not on Amarim at all, I don't think,

suddenly it comes into the narrative changes, doesn't it? And it's okay. How much of last season was actually on him? So I think it's added to the pressure at the start of next season, which in a way is a different debate, but that's kind of the, it's the unknown in terms of predicting where that, I mean, if that, where that squad finishes, if, if the system, all of those players we're talking about fit into that system. And if the system works and the system improves, then,

I still think you're only looking top eight guaranteed. Well, there need to be a attempt in top six. It was kind of the same remit when Tenard got the job, wasn't it? Aim for top six. Anything better is probably very good. Obviously, finish third, Champions League, League Cup, fantastic season, but top six probably has to be the aim. Even top five, really. If you're thinking fifth, most seasons, it's going to guarantee Champions League. But yeah, I think that would be a decent, I think that would be a pretty good window, I guess.

But I don't know, I just find it, the hard thing about predicting next season is that, like I say, we've not seen enough of this system working to its maximum potential to say these players are definitely going to make all the difference next season. And part of that is that he hasn't got the players for it

really. But, you know, there's been a lot of games where I've watched United in this system and they've hugely underwhelmed and, to be honest, I found it really boring to watch. And that's kind of the question for me going into next season, which makes it difficult to

to predict. Yeah, you can't really judge him until he's back properly in the transfer window. I mean, Aidan Heaven and Patrick Dorgu in January and we've always maintained that. There's no point of kind of making any judgments now. He needs to be given those players and then next season, that's when you can finally judge Amrit. Yeah, I think you judge him from August onwards, don't you? Presuming they have a good window and he gets players who fit this system. It's on the club now. They've made the decision, they've appointed him, back him. They've backed him and I think, you know, and...

I mean, backing him's a huge risk. I'm not going to name him, but there's a journalist I know who goes pretty regularly to United games who thinks United should sack him this summer and get out of it before they start signing players for a system to inevitably sack him at some point next season. And maybe part of that is kind of the... Well, is this system not the game model now? We've heard those buzzwords. Is this not United's new identity? Because if you are signing players for this formation...

That suggests that this will be our way of playing. Why aren't the youth team playing at them?

answer to that we asked Nick Cox that question a few weeks ago he said it prepares players for professional football playing in different systems they want an all-round player not one who's just kind of moulded for one formation I agree it's a very good question isn't it which is why we asked it but as supporters have wanted to know the answer to that because it surely would make sense for the academy to play it but that was their answer whether or not that has been a conversation and someone Nick Cox and other members of staff have

fought against it, I'm not so sure, but perhaps that has potential. Maybe Wilcox has said, we'll do it this way. And the staff have said, maybe not. I made a case for it. I mean, it's a big change from, you know, when Ratcliffe did that sit down in February last year, he spoke about how kind of managers had run the show and they'd signed players for managers rather than having this overarching game model. But he's now done exactly the same because he's

If, let's just, it's a big if, and I don't think this is guaranteed to happen at all. I think Amarim could easily be a success in this system. You look at Inter under Simone Inzaghi, who play a back three, and are one of the best teams in Europe.

Pereira at Wolves has been getting great results. So I don't think it's... Bit of a jump there from... Bit of a jump, yeah, into a Wolves. Only two examples I can think of. So, you know, I don't think it's guaranteed to not work, but Amarim Ratcliffe talked about this. We've signed players for a manager and then gone to another manager, but that is exactly what's happening now. This isn't United's game model. A back three is not United's game model. Is it not? Because that answers... Because the next manager, if Amarim doesn't work...

say next season's disastrous and he gets sacked at Christmas next year, do they appoint a manager who plays a back three? Well, that answer that Ratcliffe has given suggests that is their model going forward. How can you come out and say that, right? I would put...

My life savings on the fact that they do not appoint a manager with a back three if it doesn't work under Amarim. But I'm trying to point out how ridiculous it is. Exactly, yeah. The fact that he's come out and said that and then they're now backing, obviously Amarim, rightly so, but again, you're backing a manager. So now you've said that, that implies that that is our way of playing. They're not just backing the manager himself, if you get what I'm trying to say. They're backing the formation and that style of play. So...

He's going to look, I mean, he already has looked very stupid because he's made a lot of bad decisions, but that would look very, very bad. Yeah. Well, I say, you know, they said that and then appointed one of the, one of the managers with the most unique playing style in Europe and also a manager who has said, this is it. This is, this is my way and it's my way or I'm gone. Game model, whatever. Yeah. You know, there isn't a game model. It was a stupid phrase that has proved to be redundant. Yeah.

So yeah, I think it's going to be fascinating to see how they start next season, especially if they have that good window.

And they signed the players we've mentioned. And the squad has proper wingbacks next year and proper number 10s. Well, they won't have a proper striker. They'll have another 22-year-old. A striker that fits the system. But there's a lot of... I see a lot of Guacarese in the lap in terms of his pace. And he's also strong. He can run the channel and hold the ball up, which is a big thing in Amberham's system. He wants his striker playing on the last line of defence. You can go long to him if needed. He can hold the ball up and bring others in to play. Hoyland...

Can't do that. So I see a lot of similarities there. So whether they've got De Lapp or Osserman and they've got Acuna and they've got a couple of wingbacks and they've got another midfielder or whatever, then you would expect in August for them to be

like I say, I think top eight next year would probably be all right, to be honest, but it's going to be fascinating to see how it goes. They're going to have to make some sales. Obviously, Aston Villa have got the option to sign Marcus Rashford permanently for £40 million. Anthony's improved form is going to be very helpful, you'd think. Real Betis, Jadon Sancho, hasn't exactly improved, but Chelsea have an obligation, which hopefully they don't break for United's sake and pay up a fee. But those three players are roughly working out, what, £95 million? Um,

They are really crucial. It's an obvious thing to say to fund the income and it has to be done as a priority really at the start of the window. Yeah, I think 95 million, 90, 95 million for those three would be an absolute result, to be honest. It seems too good to be true. It does seem too good to be true. But like you say there, Sancho is kind of refound form at Chelsea at a really good time and that now they're probably thinking maybe we do take the 25 million and

and signed him because he suddenly started playing pretty well again. I mean, Rashford's playing really well, well enough to have a market beyond Villa, even if they don't want him. And Anthony's doing well in Spain too. I still think you'd probably struggle to get 30 million for Anthony, to be honest, because clubs in Europe don't really have that sort of money. I think Betis' transfer record was mid-20s, I think. Yeah, I think if you got 20 million for him, I think you'd...

take it I think it's 32 the magic number they need to prevent making a loss I don't think that's happening they could probably script 25 maybe he's had a brilliant run to be fair the lad yeah he's been playing very well hasn't he but I think yeah you get 90 odd million 80 90 95 for them it's an absolute result and then there's others we mentioned Casemiro

I still think one of Ghanat Shoumeinu goes purely because of the excess of number 10s. I wanted to talk about it in this first part, but I'm conscious this new 4K camera that picks up our facial hair tie is about to cut off. So can we just briefly pause it there and come back to that? Is that all right? Yeah. Right, we'll be back in a moment.

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Welcome back to the midweek debate. We're briefly going to talk about, at the end of the first part, Alejandro Ganacho and Kobi Mane in tie. Before I really interrupted to have that pause. Hopefully they add revenue, pay some pints at the end of the season for us, of course. It's still topical, still relevant. We kind of got into it a few weeks ago.

Amrim's had more time to see Gannaccio, not so much with Kobi Benu because the season's been stopped due to injury. He's just returned Benu, obviously from his muscle injury. Had a few cameo performances, then scored the equaliser against Lyon. Fantastic goal. Fantastic goal.

But the jury's still out on kind of both of them, whether they will be here next season. Essentially, that was the point. Which do you think is more likely to leave? Do you think there's more merit in selling one than the other? What are your thoughts? I think Garnaccio's probably the more likely to leave. I still think he's an uneasy fit in this system. I don't think he's really grasped it as a number 10 yet.

When he plays on the left, I still think he ends up playing on the wing, essentially. I don't think Amarim really wants that. We've seen him play on the right a lot. I think part of the reason he plays him is that right-sided number 10 is because it forces him to come in field, basically. And also, when you play him on the left, he goes so wide that him and Dorg, who end up operating in the same kind of areas a lot of the time, I look at him at times and I'm still not entirely sure he's enjoying playing as a number 10 player.

And I just think he's, like I say, I still think there's a really good chance at least one of them goes purely because I think the only position both of them can play or would play under Amarim is as a number 10. If they sign Kunya, I think I listed six before. Kunya, Mainu, Gonnaccio, Mount, Zirksey and Ahmad. And I mean, who are your two starters? Kunya and Ahmad, probably? Yeah.

But for me, we're talking about the midfielders there and that's what my lunch piece was just about. I think they're still meriting Kobe Manu playing in the pivot position. He was obviously given a goal under Amram. He had doubts. Some performances were decent. Some performances clearly made him have doubts. You think back to the Liverpool game, the 2-2 draw in December. It was Ugarte and Manu who were in the pivot there and they were both fantastic and everyone was raving about Manu that day. He's been moved to the number 10 role against FCSB and

He's obviously not had a meaningful run in that position because he's had an injury. So no doubt now he's back up to speed. He'll be given more opportunities there. But there's something inside us that tells me Kobi Mane is supposed to be in a deeper role.

I don't think he's supposed to be in that number 10, higher prominent position. I think his qualities are better seen, but most effective in the deeper position. I think he's just better there. And when he talks about maybe having concerns over his athleticism or his pace, he's been playing Christian Eriksen there in the last two games. I know you're going to say, well, Eriksen is obviously not ideal. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, who's better than Eriksen? I think his concerns are more about his...

is off the ball work in not necessarily athleticism and pace but kind of reading the game and understanding where to be and I think you need the right players around him though and he doesn't have that I think you need the right players around him but you know I'm not sure he's and maybe he'll develop it but I don't think he's got it as a holding midfielder in terms of

that understanding of where to be, the awareness of players around him. He was brilliant for United last season, on the ball, off the ball. I think, you know, we've got to remember he was part of a midfield that was disastrous, essentially. But how dysfunctional was that team though? Yeah, I know, but the team was dysfunctional, but every single one of those midfielders has to take some blame for the way things went wrong. And Mane was the best on the ball and he's probably United's most skilful player on the ball in the team.

But without the ball, I'm just not 100%, I'm just not sure that he's got the awareness to play there, really. And I think, you know, Ammarim was so, I think, unintentionally brutal after that FCSB game. When, you know, I think he said, I think his words were, he was struggling a lot with the defensive side. And...

you know i mean that's a pretty strong statement to say he was struggling a lot and he's not no he's not played a minute there since then i know he's been out injured but i just i don't see a scenario under amber when he goes back into that position to be honest i have been told there is a genuine chance he'll leave i mean yeah people don't like to hear that his contract the contract runs till 2027 they have the option for the other year people like to look at that and point that out but it's not it's not really about that because he's on at the moment at pittance or

All the performance related bonuses in his contract have been triggered, which obviously sweetens it a bit. But at the end of the day, if the player is on massively lower wages than he should be,

there is something's going to happen there yeah because he he will be sold he with his camp will inform the club look we don't intend to sign this contract of any contract and something will happen he'll move i think it'd be a tragedy if he moves personally i think you've got a player of that quality who's come through the academy who's won the effort cup scored and scored at wembley he's the the player united should be doing everything to keep yeah i totally right i think if you if you if you told fans one of those two is going i think a huge majority would say ganacho

would be there. They wouldn't need it to leave, but Galaccio would be their preference. Preferably keep both. But you look at, you know, you look at what Manu did against Lee on that goal. And that, I mean, that for me in a way is why he's good as a number 10. And it's what Amarim said, that his ability in tight spaces around the box is phenomenal. He's so...

fresh resistant and challenge resistant his ability to keep the ball manoeuvre the ball in tight spaces I think it makes him a real weapon as an attacking player to be honest But I mean I've watched so much of him where he's in the deeper role and

He's escaping the marker, using his body, using that agility, using that balance. And he's so good at using his body in that way. And that is one of the most valuable skills you can have as a midfield player. I can see why it's obviously very useful in the box, but having that kind of, you've got, you're looking towards your own goal, having that ability to pick up the ball and turn out and evading your marker is just unbelievable. It's fantastic. Yeah, it is. But, you know, it's great being able to do that. But when United haven't got the ball and he's a holding midfielder, has he kind of got the,

got the game and got the skill set to not necessarily win the ball back but kind of be in the right position and know where to be and I think you know I've I had my doubts last season to be honest when he was playing so well and

I still think he played really well last season, but I just wasn't sure that he was the right fit in that position. And the mess of that midfield was not down to him, but he was... I used the phrase last year to someone that he was on the scene of the crime a lot when that midfield got cut open. And maybe that's a bit harsh. Maybe it's a bit harsh, but...

What I would say is you look at what Amarim says, and I think Amarim is basically saying the same thing. But it's a different system, isn't it? When he says he struggles a lot. It's a different system, but it's the same principle. If you're the holding midfielder, if you're a deep-lying midfielder, there's a duty to protect your defence, to be in a position to intercept passes, to follow runners and things like that. And I think when Amarim says he struggled a lot defensively, he's basically saying the same thing. He needs runners around him, doesn't he? He needs, I think, to succeed in that system, an Amarim system.

every player needs to be right and unfortunately in this team at the moment every player isn't right and they need to address a lot of positions but for example if Amarant had a couple of transfer windows and got every player he wanted I mean he was kind of parachuted in there I think he'd have a better chance to succeed if they became a team with 65% possession who were dominating games is that not what he wants well that is what he wants exactly I'm not sure it's what you get in the Premier League but why not well who does it yeah

See how much they've spent. Yeah, true. And I mean, Amarim is a kind of young up-and-coming... Liverpool's dominated possession in the majority of games. They do, I don't think to that extent. After this season. I don't think to that extent. But yeah, certainly if they get players around him and they become a more functional team, I think in years, you know, in two or three years, maybe he drops back and does it. I just don't see a scenario at the moment, given what Amarim has said, that it's going to happen. And the fact that

since that game in January he's not you know he's not even played a minute in game in a holding role he was used up front and you know we came on up front against Lyon and started up front against Palace I think it's almost a red flag for me actually the way I don't want to use the word messed about but the fact that Aramu's been inclined to play him in these positions against Lyon obviously he scored the goal and it was a stunning comeback so no one's going to ever give it much thought but when he was played up front you're scratching your head again and thinking what's he doing here it worked he scored but that's in one off game but that's it if he's weighing up

whether he wants to sign a contract and what his future is. He's probably looking at it thinking, well, what is my future? And like I say, you look at the number 10s. I mean, for me, if they sign Kunya, Kunya and Ahmad are the two that start every week, I think you'd have to say, unless Ahmad becomes this long-term right wing back.

which I think is unlikely. And Amarim has said he wants a left footer as a number 10. But Cobby Meehan is too good not to be a starter and he'll be a starter somewhere for me. Yeah. You talk about the kind of the competition in the number 10 rules. He probably wouldn't be an automatic starter because he's not a natural number 10 in Amarim's system. He's just, it's not who he is. I think that his mount, um,

Joshua Xerxe. Mount is a number 10. I don't see Mount playing a deeper role under Amarim. And Mount, A, he's an Amarim favourite. B, he's totally unsaleable given the injury run he's had at United and the wages he's on. He's one of the highest earners in the squad. Just not saleable. Xerxe, I think, you know, you'd be happy to sell him or loan him back to Italy, but he can be a decent number 10. But he's had a good, he's had a better season for,

we talked about his improvement in this number 10 role and at least he's banked those kind of performances yeah and in the office when he speaks to him in the summer and he's talking about where he's going to play and where he stands

At least he's done it. Mane has not really had those run of games and those performances in the number 10 role. He's had a few. Obviously, FCSB, which is the first game in January, he scored and assisted. But Xerxes has got a larger bank of evidence to point towards in that position. Yeah, he has. And like I say, I think in 2025, he's had some really good games in that number 10 position. If you're essentially looking for two or maybe three players

beyond Ahmad and Kunya, assuming Kunya happens, that you'd be on Mount. Very presumptuous of us to think that. Very presumptuous of us. But you'd be on Mount and then maybe one or two from Xerxes, Garnaccio and Mainu, which is why I think at least one of them will leave because you give Mainu a new contract, the pair of them would be earning combined, what, 300, 350? They're probably both at that level now. It's a lot of money for two players who you're basically saying,

aren't starters for me yeah and when you consider the PSR benefits that I feel like it's almost inevitable that one of them it does feel like that when you look at it in the call like a day objectively and just from a complete logical standpoint yeah for supporters won't want to hear it because the emotions involved but if you look at it and remove that emotion it makes sense yeah I think it's a very good chance neither are in the strongest team I'm a room strongest team next year yeah

We'll briefly talk about the Wolves performance then. I mean, 1-0. I did think to myself, bloody hell, you can tell this United side are bad because if they had anything about them, they would have beat that Wolves side 3-0. Wolves weren't good. They were crap, weren't they? I mean, the bright sparks of the game, Harry Amas and Tyler Fredrickson. Yeah.

A quick shout out to Fred Rickson because he was on the cusp of a first team debut a couple of years ago in 2022, rated very highly by Eric Ten Hag. Got a really bad injury, I believe his ACL. He was out for a long time. I think it was around 60 months on the sidelines. Came back last year. He's now captain of the under-21s, recently promoted. So to make a debut after all the adversity he's faced and what he's had to go through, what a moment for his family, what a moment for him. And he did very well. And I say that because...

I think when you watch young players, you're trying to see if they're doing anything wrong, if they make a mistake, how are they going to cope at the top level? And you couldn't really tell he was playing. And that's always a good thing, I think. Yeah, definitely. He was unnoticeable for probably the first 25 minutes, to be honest. And in a way, it was an ideal debut to make because I know they won the game, but Wolves were poor and offered very little attacking threat. I thought United were comfortably the better team. But I think the moment that kind of, it allowed him to settle into the game anyway,

quite low key but that moment when he dumped Cunha on his arse and tackled him and took the ball off him see you next season yeah see you next season I think that's kind of the moment where like if the nerves are still there after that you're kind of like right I'm here now let's make the most of it I belong to be here as well yeah I belong to be here and yeah he played well he was solid again there's some options there appearing now at centre back which is why you probably don't need to sign one this summer and I thought Amash was really good again his crossing's excellent I would

I wouldn't really have an issue with having Hamas as backup to Dorgue next year, to be honest. I think he's shown in these performances that he's maybe worth the risk, especially when, again, Luke Shaw's going to be totally unsellable. I think you'd have Shaw as Martinez's backup probably there. But if you've got Shaw in the squad still, then I'd happily keep Hamas around and play him as backup to Dorgue. I think he's shown enough in these few appearances he's had that...

But considering he's only turned 18, what, last month, there's a player of real potential there. Did brilliantly against Newcastle on his full debut at St. James' Park, a really mature performance in difficult circumstances, raucous crowds. And then to perform like that against Wolves, I think he was the best player for United for me. Thought he was really good. You're right, some brilliant crosses to the box, which unfortunately weren't capitalised on. But how often have we said that? But you're right, Tay, next season you'd think he'd be

he's good enough and he's got the quality to really play a role a squad player role in that in that team you'd think yeah i think left wing back um and going back earlier in the season we've made some cheap digs at eric tanag um on this podcast last few months probably but i mean he started can we just remind everyone that you overlooked our mass obviously took him on pre-season give him his chance travel down to the community shield didn't get his chance when molasses and sure were injured which everyone was kind of questioning

And then it comes to Barnsley in the Carabao Cup at Old Trafford. Ten Hag started Toby Collier at midfield at left back. Could you imagine what Harry Amas was thinking that night? Yeah.

I mean, he really would have been scratching his head thinking, what the F have I got to do to get a game here? Fair play to the lad because he's got his head down, he's knuckled down and he's got his rewards now. And there was a chance to go out in January. The right offer didn't arrive and he's got his reward now. Patience has been rewarded. Yeah, totally. And, you know, given the issues they've had at left back, it's a mystery why he hasn't played any earlier. You know, I know he was 17 during United's left back runs, but he's shown he's good enough and

like we say i mean toby collier he started that barnes the game really badly and then recovered pretty well but he's barely he barely had anything to do yeah talk about his age talk about his size it doesn't matter you can stick him on at home at old trafford at left back yeah exactly exactly i mean it's a mystery why ten hag i mean he seemed to include amas in a lot of squads a lot of training sessions the tour squad and then just never played him community shields felt like a great opportunity to give him his debut and just never happened so

Given the issues he had at left-back along the way, it looks bizarre. To be fair, it's taken Amas time to get in under Amorim, but the last few weeks since he came on against Leicester...

Which, you know, strangely, I remember tweeting when he came on against Leicester that, you know, Harry Amas is a real person. There'd been that much talk about him. But yeah, it was his 18th birthday that day and it kind of felt like a delayed debut. Happy birthday. Is that your happy birthday? That was my happy birthday message. You become a real person when you're 18. No, but because there'd been so much like, why's Amas not playing? Where's Amas? For so long with all these left-back issues that it kind of felt like a delayed debut, even though he was making his Premier League debut on his 18th birthday, which is very early for a footballer.

But there had been this kind of like, you know, he was constantly on the brink when he constantly so close and then just wouldn't play. He definitely has bugged up, to be fair. I mean, in the last four or five months, yeah. They placed him on a kind of mushroom diet. A mushroom diet. A conditioning program to gain muscle. And you can tell he does look more like a man. Fair play on that. Big calves. I mean, I've got weak calves. Try to use them in the gym.

an 18 year old has got bigger calves than me I can eat my protein yoghurts on my lunch break but I still don't have big calves we talked about obviously Amos and Ferguson just there young players can be valuable squad players can't they and you're talking about in the first part the Deadwood that's been shifted and

look we're not saying they should be starting every game and there is it's clearly a big step up and you don't want to hype up these young players too much which some people do in social media and they get ahead of themselves but there's definitely merit in them having a role in the squad because when they're given the chance more often than not they show they're capable yeah definitely like i said i think am i just done enough to show that he can be part of the squad and i think you know aid in heaven

is probably the other example. I think he's, as much as we're praising Fredrickson, heaven's going to be above him. And I think heaven is... Heaven's going to be above him. Heaven's going to be above him. There we go. He's going to be, you know, he's going to be an obvious part of the centre-back situation next year. And maybe that means Fredrickson goes out on loan or has a season playing somewhere. But it does show that, I think, you know, when United signed heaven in January, they probably weren't sure exactly what to do with him or whether he was going to need a season out on loan.

He's come in and played brilliantly. And Amarim has said, he's changed my plans, basically. The club were kind of saying he's a first-team signing, which you looked at it and you kind of raised your eyebrows. And then to be fair, you watched them and you thought, right, yeah, you can see it. And he can still be a first-team signing and need a loan. And I think what Amarim has said has kind of hinted at that because Amarim has said of his performances that he's changed my plans. But in your logic, when we got into the centre-back debate the other week, you said they needed to be cancelled.

Yeah, well, I think he does now. This is what I mean. So when he came in before he played, I remember him probably looking at it thinking, does he need a loan? Is he ready? Does he need a loan? And I think from his performances, he's proved he's ready. And that's why they don't need to sign a centre-back, which is what I said months ago and has once again proved that I am right on this podcast. Lastly, Bournemouth on Sunday...

It was a weird game on last Sunday, wasn't it, against Wolves? It's going to be a weird one this Sunday as well. Yeah, I mean, the feeling, everyone knows it's Bilbao or Bust, it's all about the Europa League. So it's a weird atmosphere in these Premier League games. But, and we keep writing it and everyone keeps saying it, that the Premier League campaign's been written off and it doesn't really matter. It does matter to an extent because we're talking about how they're in a bleak financial state and they need to raise money. And every single place in the Premier League is worth

a couple of million. And you look at it, how tight it is at the bottom. We just talked about Wolves being level on points. Obviously, Everton are on level on points as well. So 38, 38. Tottenham are on 37. West Ham are on 36. You've got around like five or six places, four or five places, at stake there. And what, that could be an extra 10 million? Yeah. The Champions League, an extra 100 million. I don't think it's worth the gamble. I mean, I do think he'll play a strong team at Bournemouth because he will want... I'm not saying it's the priority, but it...

It matters more than it doesn't matter. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. You don't want to lose every game from now until the end of the season. No, I think he'll play a strong team at Bournemouth because he will want players in rhythm on Thursday night in Bilbao. And I mean, Bournemouth have been stumbling a little bit of late. I'd still make them favourites, to be honest. I'd be surprised if United won there. Brentford, I think I wouldn't be surprised if you made 11 changes for Brentford, to be honest, between the two games. I don't know.

I think that's one you're totally right off. That's fair enough because that's in between them. Yeah, and then West Ham, after that, you'd maybe play a strong-ish team. Chelsea before a potential final. I think, again, you'd probably make 11 changes. I mean, I said it after Sunday, to be honest. I think they finish 16th or 17th. Well, realistically, they could finish 17th. They'll finish with Tottenham. I mean, the thing is, Tottenham are kind of doing the same thing now. West Ham, that West Ham game is the one you look at and think they'll surely win that.

Because West Ham are horrendous. West Ham are pretty bad under Potter. And maybe West Ham will finish 17th. But I mean, if United make a lot of changes for that game and West Ham come and win, I don't see them winning at Bournemouth. I don't see them winning at Brentford. I don't see them winning at Chelsea. I don't see them beating Villa. So West Ham's the only one. And if by then all focus is totally on Europa League final, I can see them finishing 16th or 17th, to be honest. And it's a...

It's a funny one because like you say, it doesn't matter at the moment and these league games are, I mean, I thought they did all right on Sunday to be honest considering the circumstances, considering the changes. Given it, and it was two managers playing the same system and I thought United looked better than Wolves which has got to be encouraging to what I'm in. But yeah, these league games don't matter. But, you know, if United finished 16th or 17th and win the Europa League, it'll kind of be like, we binned it off when we were 13th. Let's call it 13th in a trophy. Yeah.

if they finish 16th or 17th and don't win the europa league like there's no safe crisis it's going to look disastrous wouldn't it be absolutely incredible if this side wants to win the europa league yeah we talk about the kind of culture of the football club the feeling

no matter how bad a team seems to be, seem to still win a trophy. How amazing is that? It is amazing. I mean, it would be incredible. And I gave pretty short shrift to the idea ahead of the playoff round in round of 16 that United and Tottenham would reach the final. But here we are and Tottenham have got Bordeaux, Glimtons. Yeah, I mean, the away leg is obviously massive for Tottenham in that one. I still, I think United, I don't know what the bookies say, I think United are probably underdogs against Bilbao, to be honest.

I think it's tight but maybe I've them 60-40 Honestly it would not be a massive shock if it was Bordeaux Glimpse let it go Bill Bowe in the final Yeah the people of Bill Bowe are absolutely desperate for that

The last thing they want is United Tottenham and 120,000 English football fans to spend it on their city. They will be desperate for Bilbao, Bodo, Glimt. But yeah, it wouldn't be surprised if it was that. And equally, it wouldn't be surprised if it was United Tottenham.

What a beige commenter. There we go. Fascinating insight once again. That's why you're listening to the mid-week debate. Right, thanks for your time. Pleasure. Thanks as usual to the listeners. If you leave us a comment, please, on YouTube if you enjoyed it. Like, subscribe, et cetera, on your audio platforms. Have a great week and take care.