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cover of episode Joscha Bach: Consciousness and AGI — #76

Joscha Bach: Consciousness and AGI — #76

2025/1/2
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Manifold

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Joscha Bach: 区分真实意识和虚构意识非常困难,因为所有意识都可能是虚构的。 他童年在东德森林中与世隔绝的成长经历,以及在东德教育体系中缺乏深度的学习经历,塑造了他独立思考和自学的能力,并形成了独特的思维方式。他从第一性原理出发理解世界,认识到个体认知差异。 他认为AGI会在其有生之年到来,但他对AGI的具体时间没有明确的预测,因为AGI的实现依赖于尚未解决的技术难题。他认为AGI的算法可能与Transformer不同,并且对当前大模型训练的放缓有所耳闻。 他认为未来的AGI应该具有意识,并且意识是其自身观察和体验的体现。他认为意识是一种被模拟的特性,是头脑中对自身体验的模拟。他认为意识是自然选择的结果,是生物体为了有效生存而进化出的特性。 他对 qualia(感性经验)的解释无需神秘化,可以理解为投射到观察者身上的感官特征。 他不确定当前的大型语言模型是否具有意识,并认为对意识的真正图灵测试应该要求AGI解释其自身运作机制。 他认为研究意识最好在非商业机构进行,因为商业机构可能受到商业利益和伦理问题的限制。 他认为判断大型语言模型是否具有意识需要明确的标准,并涉及到赋予具有自我意识的系统权利的伦理问题。 他认为人类如果不发展更高级的智能,将会由于自身原因而灭亡,而AGI的出现可以降低这种风险。 他认为我们生活在模拟世界的可能性较低,因为宇宙看起来符合他对于基础现实的预期。 他认为身份认同并非一个客观存在的事物,而只是当下时刻的体验,因此他对使用星际迷航中的传送器没有顾虑。 Liquid AI 公司的核心创新在于使用微分方程来表示程序,从而提高计算效率。 他认为计算主义是理解世界和思维的正确方法。 Steve Hsu: 作为一名物理学家,他关注摩尔定律的持续性,以及计算能力提升的可能性。 他与Joscha Bach讨论了AGI的时间线、规模假设、Transformer的局限性以及信息结构和世界模型的普遍性。 他探讨了意识的定义、伦理问题以及人类与AGI的长期互动。 他关注大型语言模型模拟现象学的可能性,以及如何区分真实和虚假的现象学。 他与Joscha Bach讨论了对意识的图灵测试,以及如何判断大型语言模型是否具有意识。 他讨论了人类对痛苦的文化视角,以及在AGI时代如何对待痛苦和快乐。 他探讨了模拟假设的可能性,以及AGI是否会创造出具有感知能力的模拟世界。

Deep Dive

Chapters
Joscha Bach describes his unconventional upbringing in the woods of East Germany, raised largely independently by his artist father. This unique experience fostered self-reliance and a self-directed approach to learning, shaping his intellectual development and perspective.
  • Joscha Bach's father built a self-sufficient life in the woods.
  • Joscha spent his childhood largely alone, leading to early reading and independent learning.
  • The experience shaped his self-reliance and unique perspective on the world.

Shownotes Transcript

Joscha Bach is a German cognitive scientist, AI researcher, and philosopher known for his work on cognitive architectures, artificial intelligence, mental representation, emotion, social modeling, multi-agent systems, and the philosophy of mind.

 

Links of interest:

Steve and Joscha discuss:

  • (00:00) - Introduction

  • (01:26) - Growing up in the forest in East Germany

  • (06:23) - Academia: early neural net pioneers, CS and Philosophy

  • (10:17) - The fall of the Berlin Wall

  • (14:57) - Commodore 64 and early programming experiences

  • (15:29) - AGI timeline and predictions

  • (19:35) - Scaling hypothesis, beyond Transformers, universality of information structures and world models

  • (25:29) - Consciousness

  • (41:11) - The ethics of brain interventions, zombies, and the Turing test

  • (43:43) - LLMs and simulated phenomenology

  • (46:34) - The future of consciousness research

  • (48:44) - Cultural perspectives on suffering

  • (52:19) - AGI and humanity's future

  • (58:18) - Simulation hypothesis

  • (01:03:33) - Liquid AI: Innovations and goals

  • (01:16:02) - Philosophy of Identity: the Transporter Problem, Is there anything beyond memory records?

 

Music used with permission from Blade Runner Blues Livestream improvisation by State Azure.

 

 

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Steve Hsu is Professor of Theoretical Physics and of Computational Mathematics, Science, and Engineering at Michigan State University. Previously, he was Senior Vice President for Research and Innovation at MSU and Director of the Institute of Theoretical Science at the University of Oregon. Hsu is a startup founder (SuperFocus.ai, SafeWeb, Genomic Prediction, Othram) and advisor to venture capital and other investment firms. He was educated at Caltech and Berkeley, was a Harvard Junior Fellow, and has held faculty positions at Yale, the University of Oregon, and MSU. Please send any questions or suggestions to [email protected] or Steve on X @hsu_steve.