Jamie Elizabeth Thompson - Beyond Surface-Level Intimacy
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All right, Miss Jamie Elizabeth Thompson, welcome to the Man Talk Show. How you doing? I full named you. Thank you. I'm doing great, Connor. How are you? I'm good. Do you have the Elizabeths in there so it's easier to find you? I imagine there's a couple Jamie Thompsons. There is a couple. There is a couple of us. The Elizabeth makes a little bit more specific and unique. All right.

Fair, fair, fair. Well, let's just dive straight in because we're going to talk about sex. We're going to talk about eroticism and arousal and connection, intimacy. Where I'd like to start is

What, in a sort of general way, do you think that most men need to know or could know about a woman's desire and arousal? I think sometimes there's confusion around these types of things. So let's just start there. Yes, I love this as a place to start. And one of the things is that I work specifically with women and have been working with women for about 10 years in the area of reclaiming their pleasure, relationship to their erotic nature, their

their orgasm, intimacy, and I also work with couples. But what I find in working with women specifically is there's often a sense of an emotional block or not feeling safe that gets in the way of them being able to fully open into the whole

erotic range of their embodiment and sensuality and sexuality, a great place for a man to start in relationship to a woman is to see how he can create a space where all of her is welcome.

Where if whatever sounds she's making, whatever smells are present, whatever she is feeling is welcome. Like an example of this is oftentimes when women have tears or grief or they start crying during sex or during an orgasm.

men can tend to get freaked out and think they did something wrong when actually tears are a sign that she's going even deeper. Tears are a sign that she feels safe and there's a deeper sense of intimacy present. And there's this way that society has really portrayed sex through, let's say, a pornographic or media lens that has it seem like it's

All this certain super hot, charged, pounding way all the time. And in actuality, women need far more presence and slowness and attunement to really open up to that full range of sexuality. So I would say one is all of you is welcome here.

And a second way that you can really hold space for a woman's full arousal to come online is understanding that she may take longer than you to reach her point of full arousal and turn on. It actually takes a woman's body 20 to 45 minutes to reach a point of her full erectile arousal.

Now, that doesn't mean that you always have to wait that long to have sex or this isn't a rule, but it's just something to be aware of because nobody's teaching that in sex education. Most men don't know this unless they've studied Tantra or sacred sexuality or deep intimacy work. And so there's often a discrepancy of a man's expectation and what a woman's body is actually ready and capable of.

So then what happens in that discrepancy is a lot of women develop a performative relationship to their pleasure, which I know men can understand what it's like to have a performative relationship to sexuality. So women also have this and they're trying to be this like, you know, hot media porn star and it's actually separating them further from the depth of their hottest, wettest, most aroused, most...

most attractive version of themselves. And so there's this way that there's this rift that has been created between men and women and then men think that women don't want sex or men think that women aren't turned on or that they can't figure out what women actually need. And so I find that these are a couple frames that can really support with creativism

Creating that safe space is welcoming all of her here, whether that's her emotional range or whatever sound she's making. And then to also really slow down and understand that her body needs a very different kind of presence and sensation, emotional connection and attunement to reach a state of full arousal. All of you is welcome here.

How does a man start to create or at least like communicate that that is how he feels? Because I think one of the things that I've noticed over so many years of working with men and couples is like, we're super linear and we're super steps oriented. And it's like, okay, what five things do I actually need to do? Like, give me the list and I'll do those things.

And I realize that that might be actually antithetical to the process that you're talking about. But maybe just give some insight into what that can actually look like for a man. How does he start to welcome all of that in? And then I have a separate question afterwards that I've seen a ton of men deal with, which is, what do I do if my partner isn't successful?

super comfortable with her own arousal or her own desire or doesn't really know her own body, doesn't really know her own arousal, what turns her on, how do I start to navigate that? Because I see a lot of guys dealing with that where it's not that she doesn't want to engage more sexually, it's that there's maybe a limiter or a fear or an anxiety or a lack of understanding. And

that can be a big barrier. So let's go with the first one. How does a man create all of the space for a woman to fully enter? Yeah, and I really understand and can appreciate the linear process of wanting all the steps and how challenging it can be for men when the linear process that worked is

in business or in health or in all these other areas of life, somehow turns into these tangled, chaotic Christmas lights in relationship with the feminine because the feminine is just a very different orientation. Or even if it's just like what worked affirmatively

a few months ago, you know, it's like, or what worked at the beginning of the relationship doesn't work, you know, six months later, I think for a lot of guys that can also be a little frustrating. I just wanted to pop that in there. Yes, absolutely. What worked one minute ago may not be what works right now. I mean, it's like, this is, so what I, what I want to invite is a contextual shift. The contextual shift is how can the approach change

from sex being about stress relief or obligation or only pleasure to being a place where you can explore and share the depths of yourselves.

with one another or explore and share your devotion to creation or God or explore and share healing and creativity and accessing deep flow states that are connected to the truth and intimacy from each of you. So I feel like what I want to do is open the aperture of what

sex is about and because the physical act of sex is often not fulfilling for people in the long term like when they come to me it's like okay the physical act is working but like it's not it doesn't have the same effect as it used to or like you said what worked six months ago doesn't work now or there's something that's shifting in the relational dynamic often post honeymoon phase and

where there's a deeper connection that is desired.

And I believe that sexuality, that sex is the deepest experience that we can have as humans. Maybe childbirth, which is also connected to sex, is another deepest. But this is one of the deepest aspects of life that we can share together. And so understanding in your contextual shift and approach that it's a hologram that can bring everything up. So this means...

The context is like, how can you welcome and include whatever comes up as a part of the erotic experience instead of as separate from it? So that means if security or insecurity or shame comes up,

or tears, or anger, all of that is actually a part of the energy, that emotions are included, that confusion is included, that all of this is a part of the erotic experience. And that when we can approach sex and intimacy as a dojo,

like a dojo space, as a ritual space, instead of as this, as like a place where there's an expectation or goal. But actually, if there is a goal, it's to connect more deeply.

And through this, there's a foundational shift that can happen and actually act as a space for healing, creativity, awakening, transformation that has effects in our 3D life. So sexuality is this like deep, potent, sometimes triggery place that we can go right into and create these like foundational shifts in the source code of who we are in life.

And so when you can like open it and look at it through a greater lens of what's possible and

have the awareness that the deepest experience of turn on is going to arise from being with the truth of that moment, being present with the truth of that moment, finding the yes to whatever the energy that is present and allowing that to move through, whether that is grief,

anger, ecstasy, confusion, whatever that is, finding that place of intimacy that is so vulnerable and intimate to be in a space together where you're like, even if you're crying, even if you're angry, even if you have shame, even if you're confused, like I'm still here. Like a personal example of this is one of the ways that I learned how to let go of control

in life, like how to actually just be in the free flow of life and trust life and have faith that life is holding me and that I don't have to exert control in order to be okay was in sexuality.

I could not crack that code in my everyday life. The pattern just ran. But in sexuality, in intimacy is where I received an imprint of what it's like to let go of control completely and surrender completely and have full trust that my partner at the time was going to hold me through that and surrendering into him in this totally

taught me, gave me an imprint, not a mental idea, but an actual physical visceral experience of being safe without having control that then I was able to carry out into my life. So I'll just pause there. Yeah, I think sex is usually one of those places where you can start to explore the parts of yourself, the elements of your identity that maybe don't have a place out in the world.

you know, and it can also be this place where who you are in the world is exaggerated, you know, power dynamics and parts of your identity and things that you want to explore, safety, trust, all of those pieces. And I think for men, I think the big hurdle, what I found personally from my own journey and a lot of men that I've worked with, it is stepping outside of this performance mentality, you know, like I'm

I think that we're so conditioned to perform in life in general, that when it comes to sex, that can feel doubly and triply true, right? That there's this huge, huge, huge emphasis on, well, I need to perform and it needs to look a certain way, or I need to last a certain amount of time or whatever that, whatever that perspective is. And I think that can get in the way of taking us out of being fully present to the experience. And it's,

in the connection of expression and the embodiment of the arousal that's happening, the energy that's being exchanged. And I know for myself, especially like in my twenties, it was like all performance. It's like, it was so, you know, like, like sometimes like watching the clock to be like, how long has it been? You

you know, and got to make sure that it's like a certain amount of time. And then almost like challenging myself to, you know, it was ridiculous. It was kind of ridiculous. I like wasn't fully present a lot of the time. And it was more about how it would look if somebody else was watching it. And I think that's the sort of like the pornification of sex that for a lot of people, it's like, well, can I replicate what I've viewed when I watched that pornography?

And this isn't to like, you know, poo poo porn or anything like that. But it doesn't have an impact. You know, it really does. So anyway, I think some of the pieces that you're talking about are very important. How can a man start to support a woman that he's with who maybe isn't as fully connected to her arousal, her desire, whether it's fear, whether it's anxiety?

whether it's just a lack of understanding, because I think from a lot of the men that I've worked with, that is a big thing. It's just like, she doesn't, when I ask her what she wants to explore, what she wants to do or how she wants to feel, there's just blank stares and question marks. And I think for a lot of guys, that's very, very challenging. So I'd love to hear your take on some of that.

Yeah, I really feel for both men and women who are coming from so much conditioning. The first thing is just to recognize that just as you so beautifully outlined, the performance-based conditioning that men are coming from. Women are coming from a particular kind of conditioning that perhaps some men can also relate with, which is a lot of good girl conditioning.

programming. And so there's a couple things and I can go deeper into good girl programming. But one thing that I find is there's certain aspects of female sexuality that I have found that women feel safer to uncover and explore and realize that they are not alone.

And that it's okay and it's safe to be a sexual being. They do that more effectively at first in the presence of other women who are going through the same thing or a few steps ahead or have already experienced their sexual liberation. And that there's a hurdle that sometimes happens.

can't be jumped over inside of the male-female relationship because she just actually doesn't feel safe enough within herself to even bring that to him yet. And I've just seen this so many, so many times in my programs. And what happens is there's a sense for many women that

sexuality is dangerous. Like if they embody their full erotic nature and they're sexually liberated and connected to their desire and connected to men and that they're like hungry for their Eros and they like know what they want, that that means something about them. That means something negative about them. That that's the kind of woman who's

considered a whore, right? Or that's the kind of woman that you don't want to be. And many women have been conditioned to be good, to be a good girl. And a good girl is virtuous and nurturing and respectable, but it has not been conditioned to be in connection with their sexuality. You almost have to rebel in order to be connected with your sexuality as a woman who grew up with

religious programming or even some of our cultural programming. There's obviously the alternative narrative of Hollywood and feminism that's like, you know, all sex all the time, which has its own shadow. But this is part of the Madonna-whore split. So many of you have probably heard of the Madonna-whore complex, right? Sigmund Freud identified this, where men experience a sense of

love and deep connection and respect that they marry and then they experience a sense of ravenous desire for the mistress, but they had a hard time some men had a hard time having love and desire for the same woman and the Jungian psychology take on this is that there's a there's a projection of a negative mother wound and

that results in a split in their anima, which is their relationship to their feminine that lives in their unconscious. This creates an inability to integrate both having deep love

And having sexual feelings towards the same woman. So there's like a inner child challenge that has someone not be able to experience that. So there's a separation of love and sex, right? This is not just an individual psychological issue, though. This has also been deeply reinforced by cultural, religious and society.

narratives in, I mean, it's depicted in like the story of Eve and in the Virgin Mary. And there's these like, if you are the pure woman, then, and you are without sin and, you know, immaculate conception, like Mary had Jesus without even having sex. Like there's this, it's like, it's like indoctrinated into our culture. And then like Mary Magdalene, no, she was a whore. And they won't even admit that she was actually Jesus's sex magic partner, but that's a whole nother rabbit hole that we don't need to go down.

But essentially, all of this is here and female sexuality has been deeply dominated and controlled. And so has male sexuality. But from the male perspective, to just understand that women are raised with this split of the Madonna and the whore, with this split of their virtuous, nurturing, loving self and their ravenous husbandry.

hungry, carnal, erotically embodied, sexually liberated self. And it hasn't felt safe to bridge that gap. And for some women, it hasn't even felt safe to like touch their like

sensuality and like the, like their lightness of their turn on. And so women are on, you know, various degrees of this spectrum of where they experience this split. But I know that men can relate with this split with the nice guy, bad boy thing and their relationship to their danger, right? They're like aggression and their danger and their, and their, their savagery and the safety around that, the equivalent of that for women is sexuality.

that's the part that has felt dangerous. And so we're really in this sort of cultural conundrum together. And part of the healing of this, I'll just go back to, that women can do with other women is to feel the approval and the sisterhood and the community around their sexuality being celebrated and

And being approved of, being okay, being welcome, and them not feeling broken that they haven't been connected to it until now. It's interesting as I'm listening to you talk about some of this, you know, I think for a lot of guys, they're like,

They get that. I think most men will probably get the majority of what you're saying, especially around the Madonna-whore complex. I've talked about it on the show before. And I think for a lot of guys, there's an apprehension, we'll call it, towards bringing their more primal sexual self into the relationship. And being more dominant or aggressive, maybe aggressive is not the right word, but being more dominant, being more

uh direct with their sexual energy i think there's a lot of hesitation around that now and uh i even remember i can't remember what her name was like ayala or something like that and she did like a poll uh through her twitter feed she has like a couple million followers she's a former sex worker turned um researcher and she did this poll

asking about how dominant and how assertive and how quote-unquote aggressive women actually wanted men to be and how dominant and assertive and aggressive men thought women wanted them to be. And there was a really big discrepancy, which was women wanted men to be more dominant and assertive and aggressive than men thought. And

And so I think it's interesting because there's a lot of narratives telling men, don't be direct, don't be dominant, don't be these things. And then I think when you play that in with some of the stuff that women are hearing as well, don't want those things, that's unwanted for that. Or if you're connected with your sexual energy, you're a slut or you're a whore. And so I think it's complicated to say the least, but

I also think that coming back to my original question, like I do think that men were like, okay, what can we do to help our woman that is in that space? You know, because I think where a lot of guys go is like, do I just tell her that I want her to be my whore? Like, do I just say like, I want you to act more slutty in the bedroom? I, you know, I want you to like pretend that, you know, for a little while. And can we explore that? Like, how do you broach that conversation? And how can a man, you know,

sort of strategically or practically support his woman. I mean, he can, you know, encourage her to go and be with other women and do that. But what does that look like between the two of them? Yeah, great. And I want to just clarify that going and being with other men, women doesn't mean in like a sexual exploration directly kind of context.

It's more about, you know, women's groups or a support or a course or something where other women are talking about. I just want to clarify that, that I'm not saying like, go have wild feminine orgies with a bunch of women and learn.

I listened to the man talk show and they said that you should go and sleep with some other women. Let's let's go. Because I've seen men do this and be like, I think you need to, you know, explore, you know, you're being a lesbian. It doesn't really do that. Generally, that that approach doesn't work generally. OK, so I.

there's a conversation that needs to happen when you're not clear. Like if you are a man right now and you are not clear about what,

what your woman wants like you don't know if she if she wants you to to bring more of your but now I like calling it benevolent dominance because I feel like it's like coming from your heart but it's like that heart caught connection and it's bringing your primal energy connected to your heart in service of her in service of her opening in service of her pleasure and

in service of more intimacy together. It's not actually taking something from her. It's actually in service. And so I want to just define that as the type of primal energy that I believe that we're both speaking to here.

And if you're not clear if she wants that or not, there's a conversation about intimacy to have of like, what do you desire? Like, what do you want more of? I love that, you know, there's this poll. The poll was done and so many women said that they wanted this for men and so many men were confused about that. How do you feel about that? I mean, you can bring it up as casually as that. Yeah.

or just as sharing that you have a value. I love leading with values of like there's a value that you are holding of wanting to connect more deeply together and wanting to have deeper intimacy. And you want to know her more. You want to feel her more. You want to serve her more. You want to give her everything that she could possibly imagine and desire.

intimately. And you want to know how you can do that more. And opening that conversation to have her open up and see what she wants is a great way to start and get clear and just kind of feel the waters out. Women who have sexual trauma,

may have a trigger around primal dominant energy, even if it's coming from your heart and benevolence. Like that just may be the case. And so this can be sensitive for some women. And it's still important to talk about because she may want to heal her trauma so that she can connect with you more deeply and just need the invitation to do so. And what I find is that so many men around

this topic are walking around on eggshells post-MeToo movement, post-third wave feminism, and they're afraid of bringing up their desire or having conversations about desire with their partner. And sometimes it's men that actually lead that. Sometimes it's women. I mean, I'm always...

Supporting women to lead that conversation. But if you're the man and you're having that awareness, one way that you can like really lead your woman is by opening the conversation to just share what your deepest desires are. And you can even create a context that is like, let's share things that feel edgy.

Let's just actually create a context and a safe space to share some things that might feel edgy, putting them on the table, knowing that nothing needs to happen.

A safe space where we're not saying that we're going to do all the things that we share. We're just saying that these are potential desires, that these are things that are lighting us up. These are things we're curious about. These are ways that we may want to go deeper together. And a conversation like that can create so much deeper intimacy and space for conversation.

a deeper connection in sex and erotic nature. I mean, I find that there's just a lot of couples that there's a default sex that happens when you don't talk about sex. And a lot of people just don't talk about it. And so they end up having a certain default sex that is actually not the sex that either person wants to really be having. It's just kind of the default. It's kind of like we just shut the lights off and we just like go into this position and then we just fall asleep after it. And it's like it's done before

without intentionality. It's done without like specific consciousness. It's done without context or ritual around it. And not like every sexual encounter needs to be an hour long ritual. And that can be a really important

empowering way to also start to bring some of these, some of these desires is inside of a ritual space where it's like inside of this particular space, you're creating an opportunity with a sandbox mentality where you're exploring, you're trying things, nothing has to last. You don't even have to do something again, but you're creating this safe sandbox mentality where you're not, you know, building a house out of wood. You're, you're building it out of sand and you can knock it over if you didn't like it. But it's like this

playful mindset that brings a deeper exploration.

I think one of the things that I've guided men on a number of times is this notion of like getting to know one another sexually in conversation. You know, it's like, I would like for you to know me sexually. Are you interested in that? I want to know you sexually. Are you interested in that? And like that positioning, I think sometimes is helpful to just start the conversation because, you know, I think,

most of us want to be known. And it's a good gateway into that. And I think it's, you know, oftentimes, especially I find that with women, that's very helpful. It's like, oh yeah, of course I want you to know me in this way. And I want you to know all of me. But I think sometimes that leads to like, well, I don't really know me sexually. And it's like, great. Are you open to exploring that? And like, here's the, you know, here's the sort of like

cheesecake factory menu, because if you've ever been to a cheesecake factory, like the menu is basically an almanac. I mean, it's massive, but like, here's the menu, right? Here's some of the things that we could explore. We don't have to do any of these things, but what of these might be valuable or exciting or enticing to you? And I like that notion of what you're saying. It's like, you know, sometimes we do have to have these conversations, which are uncomfortable and

usually the thing that's being avoided when sex has fallen into that place of monotony and just sort of like routine. So I think all that is very, very helpful. What about for couples that find themselves in kind of like that sexual rut, you know, where...

monotony has set in or maybe and maybe these are two different things so I'll let you sort of discern on that one is the sexual rut where it's just kind of monotonous and you're doing the same thing over and over again that's just sort of the standard and then the other one is when the relationship moves into a sexless place for whatever reason and because I've seen that

actually a lot more than I would have guessed. Like the amount of couples that are in some type of sexless marriage, whether they haven't had sex in like six months at all, or they have sex once every, you know, five or six months or whatever.

You know, they haven't had sex in years. It's actually a lot more couples than I would have ever guessed. So I'd love to talk on that part as well. Yeah, great, great question. And I'm also seeing that of the sexless relationships and the sexual rut. And I do feel there's a word that I just want to throw in here that is what you were just saying.

of how can we bring more curiosity in places that we thought we knew something. Curiosity is the highest form of intelligence and it will serve us greatly in our intimate experience. When we can bring this sense of, like you said, really getting to know each other intimately, like bringing curiosity as a leading edge because

things are always changing. The nature of desire in Eros is that it's constantly shifting and evolving and it's in this state of expansion and

and closing and consciousness all the time. And so when we can just bring a sense of curiosity to what is happening right now and how can I move with the energy that is happening right now, that's a frame of starting to get out of the rut. Because a rut is you're doing the same thing over and over again without realizing

Really dropping into a deeper sense of listening, curiosity, presence, attunement to what's happening and how does what's happening move through my body in a different way? What does that evoke that is different? And just, again, opening the aperture on that.

I find that when there's a rut that it, so there's a frame that's supportive for this. I actually feel like when you encounter the rut or like things start to get boring or sex is no longer happening or there's just a, it feels like there's a gap or distance between you. I actually want to say congratulations because you have reached a new phase of the relationship.

Often before this phase, it's like the pre-tragic phenomena where things are...

ordered and it makes sense and it's manageable and the energy is flowing and it's really amazing. It's a honeymoon phase or you know, some couples have like five years of pre-tragic before they really encounter a big erotic block, a big block in their intimacy or something changes or one of them is changing or both of them are changing or their relationship is changing. And when you enter this phase, this is the tragic phase.

where everything like shit hits the fan. I mean, this is where things that worked before no longer work now. There's the opportunity to either shut down, run away, get mad at each other, create distance, or actually do your emotional work and healing. But chaos happens. And in this phase, everything is coming undone in order to rebuild more intelligently.

And the way that we shift from that, often there's a way that it's like in the beginning, sex feels like an escape. You know, it's kind of like this escape from life. It's just this amazing, there's all these hormones and it's incredible. And then in the tragic phase, sex starts to become a mirror. But we still want the escape. And we're like, wait, this mirror, like I'm seeing like the ways that I'm not showing up in life are like reflected in you. And that's really uncomfortable for me. Or like my inner wounding is reflected in you. And that's very uncomfortable.

And so we shift from that tragic phase into the post-tragic when we can accept and even welcome the mirror that our partner is in sexuality. And there's an integration that happens in post-tragic phase where it's like we integrate the wisdom where it's no longer just

you know, honeymoon hormones. It's a deeper, more rich, complex relationship to sexuality that emerges. A lot of couples don't actually make it here. This is where, you know, a lot of breakups happen or couples stay in that long-term sexless place because doing the emotional work that is necessary to pass through that is uncomfortable.

And people don't have the tools or the guidance. And so, you know, thank goodness there's people like you out there guiding them. And there's people in our industry, there's like places you can go now to help you through this tragic phase that is very confusing. And into this phase of integration where sex and intimacy is just exponentially more common.

turned on and blissful and alive and connected and there's more pleasure and all the good stuff, but there's also like this deeper intimacy. There's a deeper devotional bond that is built because you passed through the underworld of the tragic phase and you're now in this new place together. And when you make it through that level of intimacy and truth that is present, it is like you wouldn't trade it for the pre-tragic.

You know, you just wouldn't. And so I think what happens is sometimes when people get in a rut or their sexless marriage,

and they hit this tragic phase, they want to go to novelty. And novelty will work to an extent. Like novelty brings more dopamine. Novelty brings fun. And it's like great to have doses of novelty and to like try all these new things. And it won't give you what the

deeper connection to your own truth and to your partner's truth will give you through passing through, receiving the mirror, doing the emotional work, working through whatever that block is between you, and then arriving in this new space together that is hard-earned, this hard-won. So I feel like the

The invitation when there's a rut or there's a gap or like sex isn't happening is to really start to do inner work for both people. Like there's just like where what what is being avoided? Like what is the thing that you wanted to say, but you never said? What's the resentment that you're holding? Like where is there contempt or bitterness or judgment? Like where is.

Where are you tangled up in your relationship with your partner and how can you start to do your own inner work and then come back into connection with them? When you're working with women, what do you find are some of the common challenges that they face and how do you support them to move through that? I think there's a lot of men that are listening to this that are maybe curious about that as well.

Challenges of the tragic phase. One is the disconnection from desire or their libido changing in some way. You know, as women get older, especially if she's perimenopausal or menopausal, there's a libido shift that starts to happen where the way the things that turned her on previously don't turn her on now.

So that can be scary or confusing and she can feel broken and not want to tell you that. Like it's like a woman's orientation is often to pretend again back to performance and goal oriented culture. Her instinct may be to pretend that everything is working and okay and even start to like exaggerate or even fake things, you know, start to fake orgasms or something because something has changed and that's uncomfortable.

Or she may feel like something's changing in herself and start to slowly shut down or distract or just not want to have sex anymore. And there's a huge thing that I really want men to know. So many women that I work with, when we go into like deep work on expanding and awakening your orgasm and your pleasure, so many women feel

there's something wrong with their genitalia. There's something wrong with their orgasm. There's something wrong with them. Every other woman has it perfectly and they don't. Like so many women have this affliction. And so,

Often in this phase when she starts to shut down intimately or feel distant or like it's not really working anymore, often there's internal thoughts, there's psychological programs, there's patterns, there's self-criticism, self-punishment that's happening. And the more that you can be a safe space, right?

for her to share this and just be there with her. You don't need to try to fix it without judging it, but just with bringing curiosity and presence and letting her know that you love her anyway. Some of that stuff can move simply through that conversation. Some of it can shift simply through feeling your loving, listening,

and presence in connection with what she's working with. And some of it might be going back to this sandbox mentality and bringing curiosity to what is it now, you know, helping her to get clear by just asking questions of like, well, what, you know, what could your, what could your turn on be now? And being like a willing playmate, you know, like I'm open, I am fully here to explore what

What is new and what is changing in in your body another time this happens is post pregnancy You know after she gets pregnant during pregnancy post pregnancy with little kids, you know, it's so many it's like women's bodies are completely different and I'm always Welcoming them to just like actually throw out the manual of what was true before and

And rewrite a completely different one because it's totally different now. And so there's a way that as men, you can really let go of what was and do your inner work to let go of what was and invite and be a space for what is present now, the truth that is moving now to have space to explore between the two of you.

Yeah, I think those spaces are also the times where for men, if we're tuned in, it's also going to change for us. Like I remember after my wife had our first kid, I was like a feral animal, you know, it's like,

I was like, what is going on? She was like, what's happening? I was like, I don't know. You can't walk through the kitchen with little lemon pants on. Otherwise, you're going to get mauled. And so it was very interesting because it was unexpected on my side. So I do think that those transitions are important to pay attention to. And it can be frustrating. I think it can also be frustrating for a couple of

I've worked with a lot of couples, I'm sure you are as well, where a woman goes through menopause. And the biggest thing that I hear a lot of women say, and maybe this is different for other women, but a lot of women that I've spoken to and talked to is like, I don't know who I am, or I don't feel like I am myself any longer. And it's kind of like a shedding of who they once were. And I think that's confusing for them, for the relationship, for the guy,

where all of a sudden it's like, well, maybe you do want something sexually or you're shut down as you go through this period. And that can be very challenging as well. And so I think it's funny that part of what we keep coming back to and inadvertently saying in the back of this ground of this conversation is like communication and transparency is of the utmost importance because without that,

It's just a smoke screen and a minefield. And you don't really know what's going on. Like, I think one of the things that I try and tell all men is the best relationships have zero guesswork. There's just no guesswork whatsoever. I don't have to guess where you're at. I don't have to guess what you want. I don't have to guess what you're going through.

and vice versa. You don't have to guess what I want when I'm going through those types of pieces, that there's just no guesswork whatsoever. And I think in some ways, that's really what you're talking about. But that requires a tremendous amount of bravery and courage and a willingness to take a risk and put yourself in a little bit of a vulnerable position, whether you're the man or the woman in the relationship saying, this is where I'm at, or this is what I want. So any...

final thoughts that maybe you would just leave men with? We're going to have to wrap up here in a minute, but what do you want to leave men with when it comes to eroticism and a woman's desire? There's a frame that I have around, actually about men. This is about you, that I bring to women. And it's concept of the man who is a gardener of feminine eros and aliveness and pleasure.

and a man who is a consumer of feminine Eros, Salimah, and pleasure. And when you're a consumer, it's like the energy of, it's like treating her like a drive-through. Like you just want to get something from her. It's like stress relief. It's like, you know, there's a taking kind of energy. It's really self-focused. And when you treat a woman's Eros like a garden and you are a gardener of it,

and you invest your energy and your presence in growing a beautiful garden that has delicious peach trees, then you get to dine on the delicious peach trees that have grown in this garden and you benefit from her having this lit up and alive sense of her own erotic energy. And

I love this as a frame that I've actually never taught this to men. I've only taught this in the context of women, but I feel like this is a powerful frame to leave the men listening with of like, how can you be a gardener where you are orienting in service to her pleasure and aliveness growing? And that in turn becomes this incredible framework

that sources you, her, and the entire relationship and everything else that you're up to in your life. Love that. Love that. And I also now have the PDAs

the peaches song stuck in my head. I don't know if you remember that song from like back in the night, like peaches come from a can. There we go. Oh, totally. It's not the millions of peaches, peaches for me. Is that a different one? Okay. Millions of peaches, peaches for me. Millions of peaches. I was like, as soon as you started to say the peach tree, I was like, oh no, that's going to be in my head all day. There we go. Now we've just infiltrated everybody else with our jukebox from the 90s.

Yes. Well, listen, Jamie, this has been awesome. Where can people go to follow you, your work, and learn more about what you're doing? Yes. So a great place to find me is on Instagram. I share a lot there. My handle is...

underscore awakened underscore woman. We'll put that in the show notes so that you can find it. I also have an opportunity. There's many courses that I have for women. There's one on reclaiming your pleasure and your orgasm that's coming up this fall. You can find that on my website, which I'll give the link here, awakenedwoman.life. And I also work with couples by application. And so we'll also have that link here if you're wanting to

Awaken and increase communication and pleasure and aliveness in your relationship. I'd love to have a conversation with you about that.

Beauty of wealth. We will have the links for all that in the show notes. Thanks so much for joining us, Jamie. And for everybody that's out there, don't forget to man it forward, share this podcast with somebody that you know will enjoy it. Likely a good podcast to listen to with your partner if you are in a relationship. So put this on in the car, you know, send this to them and say, Hey, I'd love to listen to this with you.

Just casually in the car while you're driving. That's right. Oh, I just have it. I don't know. It just auto played. It just started. But, you know, let's just let's give it a try. But thanks so much, everybody, for tuning in. Till next week. Connor Beaton signing off. Thank you, Connor.