Replay: Plant-based foods need a makeover, with Peter McGuinness
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Bob Safian here, host of Rapid Response. Today, we're spotlighting a special episode recorded live at Climatech this year in Boston with the CEO of Impossible Foods, Peter McGinnis. In our conversation, Peter shares wisdom about evolving your brand and admitting your mistakes

ideal reflections and motivations as we enter the new year and all take stock of our work, our lives, and everything in between. We hope you enjoy and we'll see you in the new year with all new episodes of Rapid Response each Tuesday and Friday, starting January 3rd.

I strongly believe that we all in plant-based meat have to completely overhaul and change how we go to market, how we communicate, and how we product develop. We're not going to out-advertise and outspend the meat industry. We need to outsmart them. And we're better together than we are apart.

I do speak regularly to many other plant-based CEOs. They're not the competition. If I steal from the $8 billion pie and don't go after the $1.4 trillion pie, we've even advanced the value of the company for our shareholders, and we sure have an advanced climate. So that's why I tell everyone the industry's dead. It hasn't even gotten started. ♪

That's Peter McGinnis, CEO of Impossible Foods. Peter was on Rapid Response two years ago when the plant-based industry was surging. Today, the industry is struggling or correcting, as Peter puts it. But he says that's not a bad thing.

Speaking live on stage at Climatech 2024 in Boston, Peter talks plainly about how Impossible is responding to the meat culture war, the missteps and plague plant-based players, and what he's doing to tell a better story about a huge opportunity. Even if you're not interested in the food space, Peter offers valuable insights about evolving a brand, admitting your mistakes, and more.

I'm Bob Safian, and this is Rapid Response.

I'm Bob Safian, and I'm here with Peter McGinnis of Impossible Foods at the Climate Tech 2024 in Boston. Peter, it's great to be here with you. Good to be here, Bob. So the climate conversation usually centers around fossil fuels, renewable energy, electric vehicles, food and agriculture, not so much. And that's something you're trying to change? Yeah.

Yeah, definitely trying to change. It's not top of mind. It's not directly linked. And so it's an education process. It's a complicated thing, right? I mean, people don't understand what the impact of agriculture and food is on climate. And they certainly don't think about it when they're having a burger or when they're having a steak or they're having a hot dog. They're not sitting there saying, oh...

There's more land being cleared, and there's more water being used, and there's more GHG being emitted. I like the hot dog. It's a moment. I'm having a moment at a baseball game. I'm having a beer with it. It's fun. So I don't think people want to bring a heaviness to their food either. So it's complicated. So two years ago, you appeared on my podcast, and at that point, there was lots of enthusiasm and kind of a tailwind behind plant-based...

foods, plant-based meat in particular. And since then, things have kind of cooled. Sales have slowed for the industry by double digits. These kinds of struggles, were these things that you expected, anticipated, surprised by? Well, first of all, it's just a coincidence that I'm CEO now and things have cooled for

No, we saw it coming, I think. And I wouldn't call it cool. I would call it maybe a correction. I think, you know, when the stock market, you know, goes down a thousand points, is that cool or is it was just overheated? Yeah. And so I think some of the novelty is wearing off. I think some of it is.

was a bit overblown. And so some of it's a correction, some of it is a cooling, and some of it is a reality that we need to change. So we saw it coming. We didn't know the depth and degree. And it's really up to us to reverse it, right? And not be a victim. But yeah, the category's down, the sector's down. There is a bit of a cloud around it for a whole host of reasons. And

And it's not good. Yeah. You said at one point, I feel good about where we are. I don't feel good about where the category is. Can you explain what you mean by that? Yeah, I think, look, you always want a growing category because you want that pie to be bigger. Yeah. And in this case, you want plant-based to be bigger because that means the animal industry will be smaller. And you're actually moving the needle on animal welfare and climate change. We're doing well.

But that's not an award I want to win. I don't want to be the fastest and only growing plant-based meat company in America. I'd actually like us all to grow, us to grow more, but I don't want everyone else declining and us the only one up. I don't think that's a great thing. My interest is not to steal share from other plant-based meat companies.

in the $8 billion global space, it's really to go after the $1.4 trillion addressable animal market. Chicken, beef, pork, globally, $1.4 trillion. That's the market, right? That's going to drive the value for the company. It's going to drive the value for the consumer. It's going to drive the value for the planet. And we don't need to rearrange the deck chairs within plant-based. And unfortunately, there's a little bit of that happening. We're way, way up in share, and it's coming from other plant-based companies, right?

But that's not the intent. That's not the goal. That's not sustainable, nor is it the end state. So this correction, I want to ask you a little bit more about it because I feel like there are two main drivers that have emerged, one about health and one about politics. So first, health. There's been pushback that plant-based medicine

meat like may not be healthy or as healthy. You know, I've even heard this from family members and I'm not sure where they're getting it from, although maybe they're getting it from the meat industry. How has that happened? How have you let it happen? Is it is it true? Yeah, sure. It is the elephant in the room.

I don't know that we let it happen, but it happened. So maybe we did let it happen. Look, I think it's a bit of a smear campaign. There's a lot of myths and misconceptions around what plant-based meat is and what it isn't. And the meat industry threw a couple terms around. They threw a lot of things around, but there's a few that stuck. And we need to admit it as an industry, fake, faux, processed. And they stuck.

And if you say it enough, people will believe it. And so they just keep hammering away at that. And we've done a really bad job of refuting it. So is our stuff not healthy? No, it's complete BS. It's made from plants. And I don't want to get into a war with the animal industry because I don't think that's the way to grow plant-based. But, you know, meat is a animal. Meat's a class one carcinogen. You know, we're made from soybeans that are

come from a seed that was put in the earth and that's harvested. And, you know, we also hear our stuff's bad for you. It's from China and all this stuff. It's, you know, grown in America, made in America. And look, we have as much, if not more in some cases, protein than the animal products. We have as much, if not more iron. We have more fiber. We have zero cholesterol. And we have half the saturated fat. So you're going to tell me that

Impossible burgers are not healthy compared to the animal product. I mean, it's kind of ridiculous. But again...

We need to play offense and set the record straight. And we have not done that individually as impossible. We have not done that collectively as a category. So it's a bit of a shame on us. And we're starting to now put the gloves on and fight fire with fire. But we've let it happen for too long. And it has hurt this industry. Your industry colleagues or competitors, however you want to talk about it. Let's go for colleagues for now. So at Beyond Meat, they have chosen to reformulate their product and...

and bring in sort of medical experts to attest to its healthiness. Now, your Beef Light was recently certified by the American Heart Association, but you haven't leaned in in the same way in like, oh, we have a new formulation. Why is that? Well, listen, I think I admire Beyond Meat, and I want them to succeed. And, you know, everyone has their own playbook. You know, I've been in the food industry a long time. Reformulating your food's always not the...

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't because a lot of people who liked it the way it was. So that's a risk. Look, we're on burger 4.0 right now. We're not reformulating. We're just revising, curating. I think that's continuous improvement. I think that's just smart, good business. Medical experts are fine. In the end of the day...

It's food. People want it to be delicious first. So the way I kind of look at this, and I think we've gotten it all wrong for so long, is look, we're making delicious, nutritious food. If you want to go down the rabbit hole of animal welfare and climate change and GHG and trees and land and all that kind of stuff, we can do that. There's very few people that want to.

But everybody wants good, nutritious food. Yeah. You can't argue with that. So we're focusing a little bit more on taste followed by nutrition. Because if it doesn't taste good...

It is a non-starter. To me, the stickiest critique in some ways is that word you mentioned, processed. Because, of course, it is processed. And it will always be processed because you're taking something that is a plant and, you know. 70% of the grocery store is processed. So that's another, it's a very clever word, right? So you go to any grocery store, 70% of the store will have a processed food.

The way I define processed is food that doesn't deliver nutrition. So a Twinkie's processed. There's nothing good about a Twinkie. It does taste pretty good. But it delivers no nutritional value, and it's highly artificial. Right. Right? Now, that to me is the textbook definition of processed. To your point, anything that's derived from something is technically processed, which is why it's a very clever word they chose. Yeah.

All right, so I want to go to the second point, which is about politics or what has been referred to sometimes as the meat culture wars. The idea that eating plant-based food is a political statement, right? I first noticed this, I think it was...

2022, when Cracker Barrel started offering your Impossible Sausage and there was like this social media uproar over it. I'm sure you remember this moment. What did you hear? What did you do? How did this come to you? I mean, flash in the pan or uproar? I'm not sure. I think it was pretty quick. But look, I think...

This goes back to how the plant-based industry was launched and created. It was launched as an industry against something. We are against the cattle industry. We are against cattle farmers. We are against the slaughter cartel. And it was very politicized, very politically charged. It was very partisan. And it pissed a lot of people off. And it was very polarizing.

And regular people in America was like, oh, that's just the elitists talking, and that's the coasts, and that's academia. And it is more expensive, right? But it's coming down. So animals have gone up 20% in the last year and a half because their input costs are way, way up. So that elitism charge is not quite as… But so, you know, the industry should be for something, right?

We're making better food for more people. We're putting good options for people to try. I don't have a problem with cattle farmers. They're hardworking people. America doesn't want a civil war against, you know, it's just silly. So let's be for something. Let's be inclusive. Let's invite meat eaters to try our products because we believe in our products and we think they're delicious and nutritious.

let's not insult them, let's not judge them for eating meat. People have been eating meat for thousands of years. And oh, by the way, it was also launched as a either-or. If you eat meat, you're a Neanderthal, and you don't get it, and you're stupid. Well, almost the majority of America are flexitarians. And I knew this, you know, when we launched Oat Milk at Chobani.

And we see a lot of impossible folks. You know, five burgers a month is what the average American consumes. If two of them were impossible, your cholesterol would go down by 50 points and we'd grow 500%. The scale is so large. You don't have to say, stop eating an animal burger. Start incorporating this into your diet. See if you like it.

And so just how we went about it was all wrong. It was very judgmental and it was kind of angry. And there was a lot of rhetoric and frankly, a lot of zealot behavior. And it didn't work. So we have to kind of change the playbook and our messaging and how we communicate and behave and talk to people. There's a candor in Peter's assessment of his own business that provides a lesson for all of us. What are your assumptions about yourself, yourself,

And are they correct? Sometimes we need to re-examine our perspective so we can strengthen those things that pass the test and reframe those that don't, especially if you're trying to be a disruptor like plant-based meat is. After the break, Peter explains why emphasizing the climate advantages of plant-based food has backfired and how Impossible leverages retail partners like Burger King and Starbucks. Stay with us.

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Before the break, Impossible Foods CEO Peter McGinnis talked about how Impossible is battling the meat industry while wooing meat eaters. Now Peter shares lessons he learned from marketing oat milk for Chobani and how he balances patience and impatience in his strategy. Let's get back to it.

You mentioned your work at Chobani with oat milk and your background is as a marketer, you guys recently launched like a marketing campaign this spring, which doesn't focus on health claims. It doesn't focus on environmental claims, particularly, you know, you move from green packaging even, right? Like, are there things that you learned when you're marketing oat milk at Chobani?

at Chobani that you're applying here about sort of the way to attract hearts and minds and bellies? Well, listen, I think, you know, we didn't launch oat milk at Chobani against the dairy industry because 99% of our business is dairy. So we actually called oat milk lactose-free milk. Who the hell likes lactose? Whether you're a vegetarian, vegan, or consume animal products, right? Yeah.

We could launch Impossible as zero-cholesterol meat. Who likes cholesterol? Whether Republican, Democrat, young, old, rich, poor, educated, not educated, you know cholesterol is not a good thing, right? So you could simplify this. But you didn't do that with this. We didn't do it yet. I mean, look, we did change our packaging because the green packaging wasn't appetizing. You eat with your eyes, right? So we didn't want to be greenwashed with everyone else. We leaned into red. Like,

Like animal products. Like the color of meat. Yeah, like it's meat. But what we led with in the campaign was deliciousness. This is really good food. You should try it. At the end of the day, we have less than 20% awareness of Impossible. So 80% of the country hasn't heard of us. That's a very easy thing to fix through paid, owned, and earned media. We just never did it before. And so message hierarchy, value proposition is critical here. For 10 years, the industry led with climate.

We do research when you tell someone you're about to eat a burger that's good for the climate, the taste cues drop in half. People think it's going to taste terrible because it's a climate burger. Can't taste good. It's a really interesting psychological thing. So you don't leave with climate. There's not enough people that care about it. It's unfortunate. It's our job to make more people care about it, but it's not your broadest marketing vehicle. Delicious food.

Tastes good, good for me first because I care about me. Right. And oh, by the way, then it's good for the planet. It's good for animals. So it's not like we're not going to talk about climate. We're just not going to lead with climate.

This marketing message that you have to get out, you don't have the resources that the meat industry has, right? So even though you want to reach that other 80%, you don't have the dollars to do all that the way you want to. I know you guys have leaned into partnerships as a big part of your strategy. Is that partly why? Yeah, I mean, look, we're not going to out-advertise and out-spend the meat industry. We need to out-smart them, right?

We don't have the resources, not even close to the resources. They have a lot of cash. They're extremely large. They're very well coordinated, and they're very well lobbied.

We don't have the luxury of any of that. So we're going to have to be scrappier and smarter, and we're better together than we are apart. Now, the other thing we've done in this crazy industry is we've been all about ourselves because we've had our own unique challenges of scaling, of profit margins, of lack of profitability. Many are going out of business. And so it's kind of survival, and we have them banded together in a cohesive, collaborative way to

to get a good narrative out there. It wasn't sinister, there was no malice intended, everybody was just fighting for their own survival, right? And kind of got tunnel vision. Where the meat industry said, you know what, we're just going to combine wits, we're going to combine money, we're going to combine muscle, and we're going to erase them. So...

I don't blame them. For you to succeed in that, do you need to help your colleagues sort of address the challenges that they face against meat in a different kind of way? Are you trying to teach them, learn from each other? Or do you just like, I can't really do that. I have to keep my head down.

control what I can control and hope that I can learn from them and they can learn from me. It's a good question, Bob. I think, look, in the end of the day, I'm not a prophet or an oracle or the ultimate expert here. First and foremost, I'm paid to grow impossible, but that does not mean that has to be the expense of the categories. So I do try to help.

And I do reach out and I do attend a lot of conferences and I do speak regularly to many other plant-based CEOs. Because in the end of the day, that's the right thing to do. That's the category we're in. And they're not the competition. You know, worst case scenario, they're frenemies.

but they're really friends, right? And again, that doesn't move the needle. If I steal from the $8 billion pie and don't go after the $1.4 trillion pie, we haven't advanced the value of the company for our shareholders, and we sure have an advanced climate. Yeah. It's such an interesting conundrum because...

People who go into the business of doing this are maybe compelled not necessarily because, oh, this is going to taste great. Yeah. And the value proposition has been muddled. It was launched as a climate burger. Yeah. It's like, what the hell is that? Look, in the end of the day, and I tell this to my team, I tell this to anyone who will listen, and it's okay to admit it's nobody's fault. We failed. We failed.

This thing was supposed to be massive. That's why I said, is it a correction? Is it cooling? Whatever. It's two and a half billion dollars in the U.S. That is a pebble in an ocean. Right. And I'm not trying to denigrate the industry I'm in. I'm just saying we all have to take a long look at ourselves and be open to change. And so I think we have to rewrite the playbook. I think, you know, if you think you're going to do the same thing over and over again, you know,

and expect a different outcome, right? Definition of insanity. I strongly believe that we all in plant-based meat have to completely overhaul and change how we go to market, how we communicate, and how we product develop. Why? Because I think we have a brilliant case study of a small category that's declining. And I'm not trying to be negative. I just think we all have to kind of co-own that.

And I think we all have to admit that to move forward. I'm curious about your relationship with Burger King. Sure. Because it was a great platform for you to be out all over America, in middle America. Some public comments from their leadership recently have been a little bit lukewarm about plant-based. How do you approach that relationship? How much of the new campaign is geared to them and their audience? Like,

Well, I think the tide rises all boats. So I think, you know, when we advertise, everything works better. We love our Burger King relationship. You know, it's five years strong, right? Yeah. No one's had five-year relationships in food service. And we're in all Burger Kings in the U.S. We're in all Starbucks. One of their best food performing items in Starbucks is our Impossible Sausage Sandwich. It's not a vegan build. It's got an egg and cheese on it. But the meat is not pork. So it's still a win. Yeah.

And that's another reason why I'm saying we should do this practically. It's always difficult when your business, certainly from my point of view as a media person, where so much of our success is based on another platform, whether that was Facebook at some point or TikTok or whatever. And you're kind of straddled some of that too because a lot of your reach is

has to do with some of these partnerships i mean we're in ihop and we're in applebee's and you know we're in burger king and we're in starbucks so food service is a big deal we have like 58 000 food service locations but there's 1.4 million in america so i tell the team great job but you're not done yet you barely started so that's the scale of this thing right we're number one in food service in all of plant-based and we have less than 60 000 locations out of 1.4

retail is a good hedge fund to the food service. So we only hit retail two and a half, three years ago. You couldn't buy it at a grocery store. And now we're in retail. We've got a thousand total distribution points, but there's 8,000 in total. So we have 7,000 more to go. It's a really, really good start. I tell the team we're Walmart, we're at Target. We're now at Whole Foods, but not in every store, not with all of our SKUs. So that's why I tell everyone like,

The industry is dead. It hasn't even gotten started. When you look at the household penetration, right? Under 10%. So 90% of the country hasn't even tried a plant-based option. That's a huge opportunity, right? The awareness, 80% hasn't heard of.

The 60,000 out of 1.4 million, the 1,000 out of 8,000. By the way, these are all movable, doable things. Food companies have done it for 20, 30 years. So the challenges we have as an industry, yes, narrative, right? Formidable competitors like the meat industry. But most of the challenges are things like making it more available, selling more into stores and...

Just get a sales force. I mean, this is not high math stuff. It's doable. It's blocking and tackling. It's blocking and tackling. We just haven't done it. The idea that plant-based food is critical to the climate crisis, it certainly is. But how important is that to your business, to your customers, to your investors? Or is it more like an internal issue for your team, for you personally?

Yeah, I mean, look, the ultimate mission is to reverse climate change, right? How you go about that can be debated and discussed, right? The biggest lever to do that is agriculture. Now, the problem is people don't equate it, right? Now, I would love the government, you know, there's a sweeping climate bill and you're getting $8,000 tax relief checks to buy an EV. There's nothing about food. So I would love the government to assist agriculture

in availability, awareness, and also incentives without making it political. But you don't have a lobbying arm that is robust enough to get that to happen yet. I don't believe we do right now. Now, it would be nice if the government looked at this thing in a very intuitive way. I mean, the math is the math and the facts are the facts. So the fact this was omitted, I mean, food's the most important thing. It's the largest industry in the world. It's the one thing we have to do. You can live without a car. You can't live without eating.

So it's pretty mind-boggling that this was completely omitted and missed. But we didn't lobby it hard enough, too, so we're to blame as well. But it's so interesting that the mission, as you come back to it, is about climate, and yet the success of that mission...

has to do, at least it seems at this point, in not necessarily leaning into that as the message. I know that's counterintuitive, Bob. In the end of the day, we have a calculator on our website. It's the simplest thing. The more plant-based meat that's consumed, the less water is used, the less land is cleared, and the less GHG is emitted. So when this industry was launched, we're a tech company. We don't eat technology. We're a climate company. We don't eat climate.

So what we need to do is get more people eating these products, and that's going to do the most good, not only for your own nutrition, health, and well-being, but the planet's. So I think we just went about it. I mean, I hate to say it. We may just have to admit we're a food company.

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. A boring-ass food company. As you're saying it, it's almost like to raise capital, the things that get investors excited are new technology, climate. You know, oh, these tech companies have great margins. Food businesses, not so much, right? Not so much. And it sort of drove you down a road that maybe wasn't the best place to be. For the consumer. Yeah. Look,

To make a plant-based burger that tastes like an animal burger, there is technology involved. It ain't easy, trust me. But it's how you communicate about your products. I joke around with the team at Impossible, so I said, "I'm gonna split the difference. "We're a tech-enabled food company, "so we'll innovate like a tech company, "but we're gonna operate like a food company." And I believe in that, right? But how we communicate to a consumer to get you to buy it, is you gotta lead by taste and follow up in nutrition,

and then maybe tertiarily get into animal welfare and climate. And it sounds like the other part that's counterintuitive is you have to be patient, but you also have to be impatient at the same time to be able to make the changes you need to make, right? It's a long road to attack that. Well, you're trying to change eating habits over hundreds and thousands of years. Yeah. It just doesn't happen overnight. It really doesn't. Well, Peter, thank you so much for doing this. Great to chat with you again. Thanks, Bob. Always good to see you. And thank you, everybody. Thank you.

I'm really impressed by Peter's willingness to admit to impossible mistakes. If customers aren't responsive to climate messaging, it makes sense to pivot, focus on the taste, and have climate impact be a positive byproduct. It's a reminder for business leaders everywhere to meet customers where they are, even when you're trying to change a marketplace. The

The high-minded ideals that define your mission, maybe it's okay to hide them a bit. It's like trying to get your kids to eat their vegetables. Lecturing them just makes them frown. In the end, you got to make it appealing. I'm Bob Safian. Thanks for listening. The top companies in the AI space are continuously evolving, which is exactly what Turing is helping its clients achieve.

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