#758 - Dr Orion Taraban - How To Hack Your Psychology And Become More Resilient
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What's that many people welcome back to the show. My yesterday is doctor a yan taban. He's a psychologist specializing in men's mental health and a youtube a everyone wants to become more resilient, to be less perturbed, and that the mercy of life fears, emotions and everything thankful.

Ly, there are strategies we can use to improve all of these. And after decades of studying the human mind, ryan has accumulated a lot. Expect to learn if there is ever an external solution to an internal problem.

What an emotional gym is, what most people get wrong about, how relationships work, how to hack your motivation, what we can learn from a writer whose servant locked him in his bedroom every night, how we can encourage others to take action in their lives and much more. Meaningless stuff. Why do we gift so much meaningless stuff? Tired of generic gifts and hollow trans.

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Your good with all state savings, very terms apply. All state fire and casualty insurance company annihilated ots north regal. But now, ladies and gentleman, please welcome doctor A. I in taran.

We were just talking about the fact that setting yourself an end goal when you're starting to do something new, setting a timeline they are going to work toward is a good way to ensure that you don't bail out before you've actually got. And if information to work out whether or not this is a good or worthwhile pursuit.

certainly you need to give projects enough time to succeed. And in general, things take a lot long try.

I'm going to do IT a one more time. Give you your my attack for me, brother. Uh, yeah, we're not going through that were going through your macbook. Um so if we go to o if we go to settings at the bottom of your screen for me, please on streamed settings, audio on the light, mike at the top.

All right. Okay, sorry.

No, no, no, no.

okay, is all buttery .

smooth you I got .

and set up so we nice, mike.

I can't can't not use IT. All right, we're going to do, I mean, third time lucky, but just watches, watches, nail at this time, all right. Three, two, one, iran taran OK in the show.

happy to be her crest.

Having before we started, we were talking about the importance of setting yourself and dates for things that you're trying to do. New habits or goals are trying to achieve our chAllenges and routines that you introduce and how setting yourself an end time ensures that you spend sufficient effort and duration ation to work out whether or not this is a good idea of for you at all. And it's something that i've used an awful lot in my life. And you've done IT with your youtube channel.

That's right. You want to give them enough time to succeed. And in general, things will take a lot longer than most people expect. It's almost like two to three times longer than most people think. Uh, that's why when I started out this project with the youtube channel, I made a commitment to myself that I would publish regularly for three years before I even entertained the question as to whether this was something I would continue to do. According to my research, IT might have taken that long for me to get some sort of positive outcome with respect my efforts. And I knew that if I was committed to that process, if I made that commitment to myself, I could maintain discipline to that process independent of any kind of or the absence of any kind of positive reward that was coming back at me, which was definitely necessary because without that commitment, I I might have given up well before anything of interest occurred yeah .

certainly in my life. Some of the examples that I think fit this whenever i'm trying some sort of new strategy or A A new supplement or A A new type of training routine or diet or whatever, setting myself a minimum t of time, i'm going to stick to IT for before then looking at something else allows you to actually accumulate some of the benefits that you get and some of the benefits can be in realizing that this isn't for you.

It's not always that IT was something good. Uh, you i'm going to pay IT. I'm going to try training cross IT for a while.

So ninety days across and i'm not going to no matter how difficult ts shy of me being injured, i'm just going to continue to do IT. And then at the end of the ninety days, because that takes the job of guessing out, right? You don't have to make decisions.

You're disable to follow another one. Um I have found great success going sober even though I don't drink that much, really be that much at all. But I love focus periods of superiority because IT means that you're never dealing with a hang over once every couple of weeks which I had in my twins because I was party in a good bit and I meant that I could be more consistent.

One of the things that people ask is what I like, i'm thinking about going sober. How should I design IT? I want to just go so, but i'm going to stop drinking as I stop drinking. But give yourself a deadline of when your sort of period of subordinate is completed because IT just allows you to feel like you're making progress.

那 youtube has the timeline bar on the bottom to show you how far through a video you are。 If the timeline bar for no resembLance to how long the video, if he was just this unlimited time line bar that just went off the edge of your screen, you'd have no idea how much closer you are getting toward the goal. Well, as if you say, i'm going to go sober for six months, I am going to go sober for three months.

I'm going to go sober for a year, so they go now, you know, i'm one month toward whatever go IT is that i'm doing. And I helped that. That helps the media motivation a lot for me. absolutely.

I worked in addiction medicine for about two years. I did my first two years of internship, outpatient chemical dependence clinic, and the idea that I would never have a drink for the rest of my life was one of the biggest obstacles towards anybody even entertaining the possibility of some period of priority. That's why in A A, in a lot of twelve step programs, they say one day at a time they trying cake.

We're just gonna through this one day and then they'll see what happens afterwards. I've used that myself when I was trying to distribute myself of certain absences. I said I came just not going to use today if I still want to use tomorrow, we'll see, of course, I could continue to kick the can and down the road and if I still have the craving tomorrow, I could just say i'm just not onna use today and I got me through the hardest periods of .

of that recovery does A A coral ary of this um when IT comes to writing that paul gram talks about about how he sits down and rights when he needs to do his essays and it's that he promises himself that he's just going to read what he wrote yesterday and as he start, he just a promise like I just read what I would rest yesterday and as he does, he notices I actually there's a gap in between the comer on and that word that I put IT as a site typo and he gets in and he's starting to edit stuff and then before he knows that I I can add a sentencing and so he he says it's one of the only times that is acceptable to light to yourself. Acceptable to lie to yourself, to convince you yourself that you're going to do less than you're actually going to do so that you reduce down that bar.

I think that's good if you're thinking about motivating yourself to stick with a new habit. Also, escape protocols work really, really well, like writers have all kinds of stranger using cracked rituals that they've developed over time to keep themselves writing. Because IT really is a habit you have to do IT, whether you feel like doing IT or not, especially if that's your job.

One of my favorite stories of this is Victor hugo, the french author. Apparently he, every night would fall asleep in a very bear room, which just like a bed in a writing deskin IT. And in the middle of the night, he would pay his servant to come in and like steel all of his bed clothes and lock him inside that door.

And in order to escape this room in which he was, he woke up naked with just a writing desk and some streets of paper, he had to slip like three thousand words under the door to his servant, who had then provided with the key to get amount of his bedroom. And that's how Victor hugo wrote several of his novels. So the idea here is to create a negative outcome that you have to escape by doing the constructive good thing that you want to build this to happen.

What is a less catch clisson c version of that?

easy. So I I made a video about this a while ago. It's the trick for motivation that always works. People hate this, but it's never not worked. The idea is to nominate some amount of money that will sting like you you it's not gonna AK your bank, but you'll miss IT if it's gone and you'll have to write a check to either an individual or organization that you disagree with if you don't perform the the behavior that you've nominated for yourself. So like if you don't go to the gym day, you're write in one hundred bug check to the R N C or the dnc or pro choice, pro life, whatever flow your boat. And let me tell you, if people hate the idea of giving their harder money to an organization that they disagreed of long we hold, they find a way to make that happen.

That is so funny. Yeah, I mean, IT kind of makes me that it's so strange that needs to be a named for this kind of relationship where the person who is subordinate does something in in some ways are the person who is being paid does something that the person paying them to do that very thing wouldn't want them to do so with that uh, servant that's working for Victor hug o he doesn't want to be locked inside of the room.

I mean, in some ways he does because he realizes that IT is A A stepping stone towards his great goal. But IT, when he wakes up his freezing cold, he's got a bad shade and he think, fucking, I like the damage. The servant did his job again this morning. And I remember I was friends with this girl, uh, who was university the same time that I was. Also, he was a different unit, and he was a financial dominatrices s like a what they called a fin dome that called.

if you heard of this, no.

what's that let me tell you about fin domes. So a financial dominant, at least to set up that he had with the particular gentlemen he was turned on. I don't know IT was a sex thing or a just like A A rose soler r an excitement thing.

Could could have been been neither of those of both. And he would get his entire paypacket sent to him and sent to hurt from him, uh, every single amount. As soon as IT lands, he didn't get to touch IT.

And then SHE would drip feed fifty p increments back to him. And there would be things where he would say, uh, I I need to go to work this morning. There's no gas in the car.

And my wife's asking why there's no gas in the car and you say there's fifty pens, get the bus. And he would love the fact that, in some ways, would love the fact that he was being sort of tortured in this way. You know, quite, he kept on doing IT, but then it's so strange because he had, like dirt on him, compromising photos and messages and all of this stuff.

And he's married with kids. And I was so conflicted because I thought, well, this man is evidently paying for a service. But he's like paying for the simulator of basically being blackmails but he is being blackmailed, which is exactly the closer that he gets to the legitimate blackmail, the more excited he ate like this is you know acoma ticket. This is what he requested and it's kind of the a much more protracted extreme twenty first century, like a post apocalyptic c version of victims. G, O been locked in his in in his room by a serum.

That's fascinating. That's really interesting. I knew a woman who worked as a actual dominate ricks in a new york city dune for a while and SHE would say that the most requested service was uh catheterization of of the men and all kinds of what's that .

what's catheterization?

It's it's A A medical term for sticking a two but your etha so that you don't have to hear IT. So this is an untrained twenty five year old woman without radio. So the idea is I need to pay exorbitant ms of money to be put in a very compromised situation. Uh, maybe I need to feel pain, maybe I need to be embarrassed, maybe I need to feel helpless because it's the only time I get to feel outside of my power and control because i'm a big swing and dick down at the stock market kind of a thing.

What do you think is going on there? Is the the polar ization of a life where you are the person that gets to call the shots and somehow in their minds IT, because he creates this excitement about being whatever the opposite of that thing is.

sure. I mean, what's like the cycle of wealthy lifestyles? You start off poor and you work really hard to make some money, and then you become you, the private jets in the yachts.

And if you actually become a royal, what do they do in their spare time? What do they do for fun? They put on disguises. They pretend to be poor, and they go about the hoe palloo, you know, i'm saying so it's like people want what they don't yet have.

Allan, what's gona talk about this in spiritual way? Which is what if you were this kind of entity that could have any kind of experience that you wanted? Like what if you are actually in control of the life that you were experiencing? Well, at some point IT, wouldn't you go through these lives were okay.

I I was a king, and I was all powerful, and I got everything that I wanted. And that would kind of lose its luster, would lose interest to you. And so you'd kind of like up the stakes in order to feel something which would mean giving up control and giving up awareness that you ever had that you chose this to begin with.

And so you'd put yourself like further further out there so that you could have an emotional experience, which is really what life is all about. People want to feel things. People will pay all kinds of money to feel things. That's true.

And I suppose A A boundless existence due to the fact that it's so boundless doesn't IT doesn't give you, if there are no limits place on anything, then there is no value place on anything. Does this quote? Peterson uses a good bit where he says, if we created a sufficiently a delic world, the only desired lack would be for the one of lack itself.

And what is so funny that ebrow up one of my friends, George port, do you know? Uh, kalian and b is his professional football one of the best in the world. And kayan backpack says he pays so much money to be a Normal human being.

Speaking to envoy special, he said, going by bread, the Bakery, i'd pay so much money now to be able to do this kind of thing, which is Normal for most people. He added. I've lost sponsor.

The sponge of being a human being asked what he would do if he could become invisible for forty eight hours in baby replied, i'd spend my two days outside, that's for sure. I can say that without thinking. Go eat quietly in a brazil.

Go out, go with friends piet. I A party, party quietly without anyone to come see me the next morning. A nice brunch in the sun on a terrorist that you have a simple things in life.

And I think that's wonderful to keep in mind because the life that the ordinary person lives is what the hyper successful, most wealthy and powerful people in the world envy.

Yeah, it's strange. The things that you get rid of, I came with this idea, prompted by that in the u. But this morning, on the way to the gym, came with this idea of a titanic problem, which is an issue that everyone says you're in such a privilege position to deal with.

And this is a quote from my friend at a mastery oni. He says, this is an extra special type of tragedy, a tragedy that unfold while while everyone cheers like being on the tight tank after the iceberg. Watch up to your chin with everyone telling you that you're so lucky to be on the greatest steamship of all time and the titanic is indeed so huge and wonderful that you can't help but degree. But you're also feeling a bit cold and wet at the moment and you're not sure why.

There's an old there's an old story about a chinese philosopher, um chung too, and he was widely regarded as one of the wisest men in the realm. And so one day the emperor sent his retainers out to him to come to the court, and they found him at a fishing pond and they say, hey, good news for you, sir. You know, the emperor has taken note of your ability and would like to offer you a place of dignity here at the court at his right hand.

And he basically said, look at that turtle swiming ground in the mud. Do you think IT would be happier here in the pond or in bomb in a mahogany case at the foot stool of the emperor? And everyone knew the alc. I'd rather be swiming here in the bug is like me too. I'd rather be wowing in the mud, so get out here.

That's very cool. It's very strange to think the kind of the champagne problems that come along with stuff abused this story before. But ben Francis, who is the C.

E. O of jim shark, foundering CEO of of jim shot clothing, and I went for lunch with him in manchester maybe a year ago, something like that last summer. And we SAT down in nanos, which is like a very kind of cheap chicken restaurant in the U.

K. And we, he had two assistance over the first side on a different table that were doing emails or schedule. No security.

No one noticed. No one cared. I think he was playing to doku or something when I arrived, or maybe it's on slack.

I'm not sure. We SAT down and we had a chicken and and then we left. I realize that his net worth is three times what drakes is.

And then I thought, how much more difficulty would IT have been if I tried to get nanos? Would drake? We wouldn't be able to get within two miles.

IT would have. The roads would have been shut down and the press would have been everywhere and needed seventy five security. And there would have cues, and there would have been news articles and all this stuff. So there's different routes to the kind of life that people think that they want. Think to bill a rightly quote, where he says, try getting rich and work out if you still want to be famous.

There are two different things. In general, visibility is interesting because a kind of has a curva liniers relation to power, like the least powerful and the most powerful people in any given society are the invisible ones, like the the homeless people in san Francisco in the middle the day could be sending in the center of the street waving their arms and no one will look at them, right? So that's a type of invisibility that's just completely connected to power.

Lesser, but it's always the ones who are behind the scenes pulling the strings. S, whose names you don't even realize are in the decision making room, who have not only all the power, but they have security in their power. Because how do you dethrone somebody if you don't even know that they exist?

Everyone always does this. They always say about the know the forbes top one hundred richest people on the planet I don't know who does IT whoever the top one hundreds of richest people on the planet thing that's and everyone has IT in the back of their mind like yeah but the some russian sar or the some colombian drug on the middle and war monga or or energy type or something. And you know like elan musk, he's just the front. He's not the real one, as you know, these levels and levels and levels. And if you believe that there's a new old or A W H O conspiracy, or even not that even if you just believe that there are mechanisms and dynamics that are outside of what we see, and you can quite rightly presume, okay, so the richest company in the world, I ve no idea what the richest company in the world is, but is IT really that, or is IT the thing that pulls the strings behind the thing that pulls the strings?

Ah, we might never know. But in general it's it's a more secure place to be to be the like the visio that he said, like jeff arr in a later the the the man behind the sulton, the man behind the king, who through his machinations and manipulations can work through the emperor while we're mining hidden in the shadows and that person could even outlive several administrations. So do we not .

see this with the american government as well? That literally the way yeah but even without going so deep that you have the president, the most powerful person in america, right? But you're just here on holiday, your A B N being this room in maybe four years or the very most ideas you're out. But there will be people, I mean, I mean, I don't know what the oldest person working in in the White house or in congress or whatever is at the moment, but these people, i'd like biden being in that like half a century or something. Think about if you have been um the right handle, the visit of the president, how many different administrations you've seen come and go and this to you a four year or even eight attention would just seem like nothing you know then and out um you've got this idea that I think is pretty interesting about why getting what you want is often disappointing.

How's that one? Oh yeah. Well, at first of all, it's disappointing because people don't really know themselves. A lot of the things that people think that they want aren't really authentically grounded in there being. This is something that I just strugling with myself.

So at the very most superficial level, for a long time, I thought that what I wanted in life was basically like a corona beer commercial. I wanted to be on a beach with a bunch of bikini women and some cool brows, and just like taking IT easy and be really chill and in at some sort of tropical paradise. And I now know enough about myself that if I did that more than two days, I would probably want to shoot my face off.

It's like that would be like enforced leisure being forced entropy for me, I need to grow. I need chAllenge. I'm sometimes happiest climbing the mountain in a sleepy winter storm. Well, I lost feeling in my toes and my fingers, and but I feel so alive, and I feel like i'm struggling towards some personally relevant goal. That's my idea of happiness.

But IT takes some time for individuals to disappoint SE themselves of the cultural introduction of what they're happiness is supposed to look like and to realize who they are sufficiently to identify something to replace that with. So a lot of times people haven't done that yet. And the tragedy is that they actually succeed in getting some approximation of that beer commercial.

And then they realized what? What's wrong with me? Am I depressed you? I thought this was what I wanted.

It's certainly something that i've been striving for for my entire life. what? What's the matter? One of the things I often tell my clients is that as a therapist, I facilitate their disappointment by helping them get what they want.

Because once a person is sufficiently disappointed in some sort of external achievement, there's one fewer place for them to look for their own happiness and satisfaction, which has never found outside of themselves. But unless they get that themselves, they're going to think i'm fully shit. It's like rich hollywood movie start saying, hey, money is an everything it's like, yeah, well, I certainly could help me.

I think I could handle that problem or being famous. As in all, it's crack up to be. It's like you have to have you have to kind of learn that for yourself also, you gona think these people are hypocrites. Don't right? But IT takes a while to figure that out.

Do you think that there is a way to shortcut that realization? Is there a way to realize that climbing the mountain isn't what you want to achieve without being stood on top? I C. First.

IT requires accurate self knowledge, like the more that you know who you truly are, the more able you are to make decisions that represents, let's say, goodness of fit between reality and yourself. And the more accurate teh technology you have, it's almost like a massive object. And IT pulls more accurate of knowledge in through its gravitation field.

And you can make Better choices with less information. But that's A A lifetime process. And in order to even begin to accumulate accurate self knowledge, people generally have to distribute themselves all the bulls shit that's been put into their mind, usually for the first twenty five, thirty years of their lives, which is considerable.

I've been thinking a lot about this term that's been stuck in my head for a philosophy that i'm working on the book, working on at the moment intentionalism. So trying to come up with a philosophy of being intentional with all of the different things that you do and trying to strip away, and that seems to be the description of of what you're talking about here, is that the things that you do with the things you mean to do and the things that you want, other things that you want to want, you don't do things that you're doing without realizing why you're doing them.

You don't want things that are societies once, or what your parents programme you to want, are the way to end up your past traumas, or the past of least resistance, or the thing is convenient, are comfortable on an evening time, or the thing is going to make you look cool t to your friends. It's life lived by design, not lived by default. The problem is, the most of our default desires a bullshit, or not even necessarily bullshit. They're they are just malian, usually for you. And the more of a deep thinker, the more idiosyncratic you are, the less likely that whatever publicly acceptable version of success is supposed to be is the one that sits right in the middle of the bell curve of the best life that you could live.

That's interesting. I do think that a lot of the stuff that in people's minds is is bullshit, not just misselling um and I do think that IT takes some time to see the default bullshit because most people identify themselves with that bulls shit like they think that that is actually them and so the fact that this is a defauts cultural introduct or just the accident of their particular childhood upbringing is obscured to them.

It's missed fed and that's actually the biggest obstacle that people face in divesting themselves and this bushy they they can't recognize IT as bushed. They see us themselves in one pathway. Out of that is to understand, like this doesn't feel good to me.

I if this is really what I want, if this is really something that aligns with my values in my individual preferences, why am I unhappy? Why am I unfulfilled? Why do I feel like something is missing? Like, that's the little clue, that's a little thread that people can begin to pull to kind of unplugged the sink, to flush out their minds.

That's very interesting. I've been, I think, IT since he said that early run, helping people to become disappointed, a people succeeding at the wrong thing, they have achieved success. But the thing that they achieved successes was not the thing that they actually wanted to want.

He is an interesting sort of paradox that because hard work is usually done as a predecessor to something which is worthwhile, there are some things that can come well without hard work, but many things that are valuable require hard work in events. And hard work, although kind of satisfying, is usually not IT, doesn't fill you with always happiness in the moment or sometimes even satisfaction in the moment can be frustrating IT can be anxiety and ducks. I can feel like pressure and all the rest of IT.

The problem is, if the thread to pull on, and I think that is the right when I agree with you, is, does this feel good to me like I am having fun? Is this night? Does this life feel satisfying to me? There is an amount of pure and work ethic and sacrifice that you can continue to plug away at where you just go.

I know that's not me bAiling out of the wrong life direction. That's me paying the Price that I need to in order to be able to achieve success. And I will continue to do this because i'm leaning.

And this is the point to other people quit. Did you expect that this was going to be easy? Now of course you didn't. This is what hard feels like and this is why you're going to win.

And so and so for but that ability to dump en down the voice in the back of your head, that goes, I I, I don't think i'm having that much fun doing this. So I don't think that this is actually all that good for me or this doesn't seem to aligned by locating that from this isn't right. This is this is directionally the wrong thing for me to be doing. That is a that's pretty tough to pull apart.

Oh yeah, it's very difficult ah what to begin with that. so.

Yeah, you need hard work in order to accomplish anything. So this problem is is actually a problem that most people are going to experience because they're not going to hang in there, right? So this is like A A second tear problem that people are subject to encountering.

And when I say IT doesn't feel right, I don't necessarily mean, am I having fun or does this feel pleasure in the moment? Sometimes this means like, do I feel weak? Do I feel ashamed? Is there a nagging sensation that there is something more important that I should be dealing with? And for a lot of people, they become successful at something that is like A A stepped towards something else in life.

Like, for example, I for a long time work as a test prep instructor, and I got really, really good at test prep. I have a perfect score on the jury of work with thousands and thousands of people on this test. It's something that I got very, very good at.

And that was necessary for me in my twins because I paid my bills that helped to subsidize my education. IT was something that the market needed, even though IT wasn't like, let's say, the fulfilment of my personal destiny, you know. But I might have needed to go through that process in nor to create the material conditions so that I might be able to launched that in the future.

The idea, the problem is, some people can get stuck there. They get stuck with some measure of success. They're thinking, I am actually making decent money and to work really hard to get here.

Maybe this is the best that life has to offer. And that might not be true. That might not be true.

So I want to I wonder how people work out that whether this is A A transitory period of whether theyve outgrown the current modality that the the developing themselves within.

Yeah, I made in an episode about this long time eagle, which is that winners almost always quit. The idea that winners never quit is probably incorrect. That speaks to that kind of mental model log that you are describing just a few minutes ago.

The fact the matter is that mastery is very, very difficult to achieve. And so anybody who actually succeeds in arriving there must have quit pretty much everything else in their lives in order to devote themselves single focus on this one endeavor, right? So you actually have to quit pretty much everything else in order to arrive, at some degree, a mastery. Now I think that once you have some success, you have some money, you have built a business or you develop some sort of fame, it's almost like you have a Kitty that you can gamble with. And so it's possible now to take bigger risks without necessarily um compromising the fundamentals of your lifestyle or your survival. And so that's why I think it's necessary for people to just get some sort of like stability in their lives and then they can think about the next thing they can think about the thing that's connected to, let's say, more personal fufu ment or their passion, whatever that means, as opposed to going after that right out of the gate that that might be in poor advice for a lot of folks, especially Young folks.

Does a Jason paragon quote where he says, accept to all of your heroes are full of shit your heroes aren't gods that just regular people who probably got good at one thing by sacrificing literally everything else. And that's the quitting that you're talking about. You got another idea, which I loved about a overpaying, is the cost of winning. And IT feels like that related here as well.

Yeah, it's connected to the idea that getting what you wanted disappointing. So basically, I talk about how life is sort of an auction house in the way to auction houses work is is full of things that people want, but it's not a charity. In order to achieve those goods, people have to outbid every other person in the room.

It's not a perfect, but it's kind of what we have developed in order to maintain some form of fairness or justice with respect the allocation of zero some goods, because the universe is abundant in its generals, but its zero sum in its specifics, right? So with respect the analogy with life, it's not just about money that what could be IT could mean that you have to work harder than anybody else. You have to work longer than anybody else.

You may have to sacrifice your pleasure, your well being, your social life, your friends. You might have to put that all into your offer to increase the value, surpass all of their bitterness for that once zero some good. And if you actually succeed in winning, it's because no one else thought I was worth that much.

Like by definition, you must have overpaid like the lightlier od that you hit the exact correct minimum amount of value. If you went any lower, you would have been outbid is functionally zero. So you paid more for that then you needed to because no one else thought that, that good was worth what you did.

And so that's part of the disappointment of actually getting what you want is you probably overpaid. The idea is, wow, I finally won. I got what I was doing for.

But look at all that I had to give up all of the years, all of the the relationships, all of the opportunities that i've had a surrender to get. This was IT worth IT. It's a tough question to answer in most people in order to resolve their own cardio distance.

We will say, oh yeah, it's definite. It's definitely worth IT, but the way I kind of reconcile that to myself is the goal is really just a pretext for the transformative process to achieve IT. It's like most people can't win as they currently are.

So the goal is the excuse to become Better than what they currently are to put themselves in a competitive position to achieve IT. And that's the actual that's the actual gold. That's the our chemical gold is the process by which the let is the base metal is transformed and be something precious.

My friend alex talks about how he spent, I think, five years building up his financial resources to the stage where he acts IT to the business and was able to put IT all into this new project. And this is no worked for five years, and i'd worked like a dog just so hard and then dumped all into this new business. And then the business partner, sended, all to his girlfriend in switzerland, declared bankrupcy.

And he was back to zero. And he thought, those five years of my life, and I have nothing to show for, literally zero, like every single penny, zero left. But within the next twelve months, he made more money than in the last five years combined. And then the year after that, he made like ten times, a hundred times so much money. And his point is not too to similarly yours, which is the real thing that he got out of that experience was the person who he became while .

he was doing IT. And you discover who you are in the process of striving towards A O everybody, in the privacy of their own fantasy, thinks that their bigger, stronger, smarter, more clever than they probably truly are. And we often only get to see who we are in the the competition for those zero sums that exist in the world, like the goals are also an opportunity for us to get to know ourselves.

It's very difficult to actually know who you are by thinking about IT. The only way you can arrive at any kind of accurate itself knowledge is by taking action in the world and then examining and retrospect CT. Well, what kind of person would have done this? Well, I did that. So maybe that's the kind of person that I am. It's not something that you can decide in your own cognition.

It's very difficult to do. Uh, this is one of my criticisms with monk mode as a personal helpful strategy that it's great you know you're going to do isolation and introspection and really focus on you. But until you brushes up against things that you haven't selected because you're going to go do, i'm going to run a five k quickly or whatever, all right, but you chose the distance.

It's not run, run until an undisclosed amount of distance where your mom is trapped under a car, right like that, really unchosen training or suffering, right? People in cross IT, they talk about a how hard the workouts they are, the difficult workouts. But you chose this modality.

And the reason that you chose this modality ity is because you take a degree of pleasure from IT. Now, if I was to say you need to lie on the couch for three months and you not allowed to train and you have to eat dog shit like that would be difficult. That would be genuinely hot because it's outside of your existing sort of paradigm of selecting things.

So you're within this bracket and tim ferry, I heard this call from tim fire fucking fantastic. He said um running a business is a personal growth strategy masking as a vehicle for accumulating wealth that by doing things out there in the world you learn so much about yourself because you crash up against your inefficiencies and yourself dout and your chAllenges with other people and your fears and your anxieties. And it's like it's it's more like running on a trade move than running on a road because the trend mill is continuing to move at a pace and you go I can't slow down.

I need to keep this business going as supposed to being like, ah you know maybe my meditation session was a bit hard today, maybe was easy. No one knows like you don't have an external counter of that. But when IT comes to running a business or just testing yourself out there in the world, that begins to the people you do.

That's why I think one of the best little psychic s that a person can have is to choose whatever happens to them. This was something that the stock s talked about. They delaminated everything in terms of what was within my locals of control and what was outside of the locals of control.

And the vast majority things are outside the locals of our control. And the proper attitude to develop towards these things is a difference. And to choose IT like epithet talked about how if zoo wants me to be sick, then I want to be sick as well. I want what fate has in store for me.

And by .

choosing IT, you take some degree of psychological control over IT, and you can kind of wrestle with IT. You say that there's something in here that can Better me. There's something in here that I want in almost like a massacre stic way like I can take this. I can struggle with this and come out potentially reborn on the .

other side of IT.

Like that's a indomitable mental set .

yeah there's a study that I heard Matthew hussy talk about which you will probably be familiar with um two hamsters, one who gets to run on the wheel when they choose attached to another wheel that has a hamstring that only runs when .

the other one chooses to a picture.

Basically, you ve got one that got internal locks of control, and the other is got, accidentally, locals of control. One is running up under their own violation, and the other is being made to run when the other one uses to. And pretty nasty experiment. You know, if you imagine there was someone that did something compulsively and you had to do IT at the same time, IT would be pretty painful, but very interesting.

The stress levels of the two hamsters, when you compared them together just night and day, like completely different uh, yeah if you, uh, this is the mental equivalent of that you if you can try and take a little bit of power back from whatever IT, is that a good to you? I chose this is supposed to like I am happening to IT. IT is not happening to me.

And of course, even the hamster who could get on the wheel whenever I wanted was in a cage. I mean, I had very strict limitations on what I could do. So we're really talking about just a relative difference.

Most of us, in terms of our human experience are the second hamster. There's the universe is just so much larger than we are. And IT was set in motion a long time ago.

We're coming up against forces that are rippling from ross the stars. All we can really do is choose how we want to respond to them. Some Victor Frankl talked about, this is like sometimes you are in a situation where there is no possibility of escape.

And so all you can really do is choose how you respond to that. And he saw that there was an opportunity for dignity and self to incidence, and even the most. Know on the circumstances you .

mentioned just before about how you'd doubled up and tripled up on work to get you through your studies and that you realized that was a stepping stone between you and something that you wanted。 In future. I am going to do these things because in future I will get me toward a position that I want. What's your belief about whether people should growing out in their .

twenties or not? I think it's a really important thing to do um but everybody's on their own path. I initially wanted to be an actor.

I was a professional actor in new york city for about eleven years, and I spent most of my twenty years pursuing that. And I would travel around the world and do shows and party and little life of a bohemian. And looking back, I couldn't have chosen to live my life differently because that's who I was.

I'm sure if well meaning or yon gotten a time machines and said, hey, look, man, you know, your lifetime learning is going down and your real passionate psychological helping people in self discipline and he would be like I go for yourself but so like I had to live the life that I live because that's who I was right um and that put me on one level behind some of my peers who in their late twenty years were already they've gone through medical school. They're gone through law school. They have their secure lifestyles.

They were partnering up, they were having children, they were buying houses. And I was still living in subsidize housing in berkeley for month to month. And that's a harder look the older that you get, right? So then I entered into a period of grinding where I burned on my boats.

There was no plan b and I worked one hundred and twenty hour weeks for five straight years without taking a day off. IT was awful um but he positioned me to create the life that I lived today. I remember when I was back in that housing, I was visualizing my life like down to the decoration of the office that I wanted to have.

And I realized eight years later I had arrived there like I took me eight years to this to actually manifest the dream that I had when I was in my life, twenty years. And I think that's about right. I think you can take seven and ten years to make a dream of reality.

And I call that like a chapter of life. And people have several chapters to their lives, but they don't have an infinite number of chapters. You know what is IT like average age is seventy, maybe ten years at the.

And so like maybe fifty good years divided by seven. So you get maybe a seven or eight good chapters in your life. You you got to and so like, what's the theme e of this chapter? What do you want to have accomplished at the end of IT? Where do you want to position yourself for what happens next?

I think it's really IT takes so much more work than most people think in order to achieve a goal to make a dream come true. But that's really what life is about. Life is like the dream making factory man.

This is where IT happens. This is where you get to make IT real. There's nothing more thrilling and exciting about this. I don't know what your spiritual belief is, but that could be why there's all of these spirits fooling around. Just not can't wait to get down here on earth to make something happen because this is this might be .

the only showing town. It's exciting to think about uncertainty of the future. And I understand and I see in myself like it's anxiety inducing. I don't know what's going to happen.

I don't have certainty about the fact that things are going to work out or that my dreams are going to to aco correctly or I don't even know what's going to happen in ten minutes time. I don't even know the next words are going to come out of my mouth. But there's something thrilling about that. And it's one of the reasons why i've increasingly been spending less and less time on the internet.

I've been spending less time on social media even though like party, my job, i've been trying to find a way to get the information that I need to not be completely silo ed off and like totally heritage so I don't know what's going on in the world while also not being trapped by a lot of the tenor of the internet, because the tenor of the internet, at least a lot, what I see at the moment, is very fatal. Alisa, it's very cynical and it's not a dream factory. It's but it's also not even timer factory.

which is a type of dream.

Yeah I suppose I I was about to say I don't know if that isn't at my factory like at least the nightman factory would involve IT would be exciting is more vanilla and bage than that. It's like the sort of slow trudging walk toward inevitable boring despondency. I don't know.

Like it's just i'm i'm not a massive fan of a lot of the translate I see on the internet at the moment, despite the fact that I create a lot of things very carefully. And yeah, I just IT makes me when I think about when I truly truly connect with this stuff that makes me sad IT makes me sad to think how many people perceive the world in a way that is so like unintentional, also non agented. They're not a sorer gn individual.

They don't have control over their outcomes of their future. Um things happen to them, things happen for other people, but that's that's not going to be for them. And um yeah it's it's unfortunate now that is a difficult situation for one person to get in.

The point of which IT really starts to ride me up is when those people begin to try and convince other people that that's the case. And like you, you can be as respondents as you want, is that your choice free will debates way longer than we've got time for. But you can be as respondents as you want.

But is there is nothing more perverse and toxic then trying to convince other people that they're living inside of the night? The nightmare that you believe that you're already inside of like that, to me, seems to be like, I don't know. I I think the world would be a significantly the Better place of those people just want allowed to talk.

Um well, it's their way of reducing their own coding distance, I assume because the the presence of other people who don't see that life is a nightmare who are living their lives in an ejected way and moving in the direction with hopefulness and confidence towards their goals is a palpable counter example, counter evidence, counterfactual to their entire world view.

IT denies the validity of that worldview and that's embarrassing because IT, in some deep process of their minds, calls up the possibility that things could be different and that they could be wrong. And that's actually very difficult to to approach like this. There actually some cornets here with depression, like i've worked with some folks who have been depressed for years and years and years.

And at a certain point, after a certain amount of treatment, they do come to the understanding that maybe they've prolonged this condition longer than was necessary. Maybe they have been willfully mired in this state, and the possibility of recovery is ison morphed with admitting that they kinder did this to themselves and that they might have been wrong for years. And that's really difficult.

That's the same can cost fallacy, right? And so if I actually get Better, IT kind of admits that I could have done this earlier, and i'm having real trouble making sense of that. Does that make sense? Ris.

absolutely. Yeah, you talk. We both have talk in research a lot about dating. Have you spent much time looking at the black pill in sell movements and those communities? Have you spent much time in them?

Well, answer your question. But first of all, to your point, I actually don't consume a great deal of content on the internet, just like you were discussing. Part of that has to do with, I want to keep my content as original as possible, and I don't want to be unconsciously or unduly influenced by their people's ideas.

I think that a lot of the value that I have to provide us to do with kind of being an independent critical thinker um and i'm very careful about consuming content with respect to dating into sexual dynamics because there's a lot of angry men, there's a lot of angry women and there's just a lot of hopeless and responding folks. I knew about the existence of black pill like abstract, but I had never actually met somebody who identified as black pill. That changed when I my channel became more successful. And I could see some of the comments that were left on some of the videos and I was taken a back by how hopeless and despair some people out there are with respect to women and relationships.

So William costolo, one of my good friends, he's the number one researcher of in cells on the planet. And he.

or see the U. K.

The guy from the U K. Irish, don't they wish? Don't say that. careful.

Excuse me. Excuse me. I I think i've watched them of um I think you had him on twice and I think i've watched both of them. So he he was .

wonder he's really brilliant and he's doing huge bunch of huge studies at the moment. Anyway, yeah, he told me about ascending, if you heard this word before. Yeah, so ascending for the people that do not, no, is rising out of the insolence here, potentially becoming a viable mate and maybe getting a girlfriend.

But what he told me, which was really interesting in a kind of leads to what you were talking about, where I think the keyword was, hope, right? If you believe that things can be Better, hope is painful, because IT posit an ideal. And as soon as you posit an idea, you then begin to compare yourself to that ideal.

But if you just assume fatalism that nothing can change, this is the way that things always are. There is no hope. Nothing can be, can be altered at all.

The, there is no such thing as an ideal. The ideal and reality fit together because you are constrained. You are constrained by that.

And he told me that um in some of the chat rooms they'll say um with regards to ascending or becoming a fake cell as it's called that um I said also, if you got a girls number, if you run a night out, you ended up sort of kissing somebody in a nightclub and you like, no, no, no much much smaller than that so if you went to starbucks and the bester's eyes linger on you from half a second longer than you thought and you were to go back and post in one of the forum and say, this thing happened to me today. The problem with that is if everybody is completely locked into the position, if all in cells can't get. late.

If there is absolutely no hope to them, then there is no hope for any of the others. But if one of them a sense and becomes, get a girlfriend or what does that mean about me? Maybe that means that the owner and the local of control is on me, as opposed to out there in the world, and not constrained by things that are immovable and invaluable.

I am the architect of these things. That they go because egg user, two, nine, nine, nine, seven, they just did IT and they they, they just managed to do IT, and that it's an unfaltering y in many ways. And I haven an awful lot of sympathy as well for the inside movement and writing an article at the woman about that.

But IT is a completely impossible to disprove philosophy, because anybody that doesn't IT hit to the philosophy gets accused of not being one of the members at all. Like the only people who are send a fake sales. Then there's no such thing as an insel because it's just anybody that isn't all of these things that outside of them, in the second that someone breaks those rules, they weren't one of us in any case.

I ve had a few thoughts on this. So for a couple of years, I did my precor al internship at the cancer support community in one neque, california, where I was doing therapy with stage four cancer patients and often their caregivers, or they are children. And that was a very difficult placement.

That was the first time in my life I had experienced that much sickness and loss and death. I remember leaving that placement and crying. Just the tears were just be coming out of my eyes as I was driving home every day. I learned so much about life from working with those folks and hope with something that would always come up in our group and individual erp sessions.

And hope is a very personal thing because there is a time when the person is not gonna a get Better with a certain disease and holding on to hope longer than is justified can just create more and more pain like IT is a roller coaster hope. But it's not for me or for anybody else to say when it's time to kill the hope or some people, as long as there's life, there's hope for other people, especially those who are are dealing with the disease. Sometimes they're more comfortable giving up to hope than their wives and their husband's who want them to keep fighting no matter what.

So hope is not A A unilateral positive, like in the myth about pandora box in which all the evils were released into the world, while the only thing that remained inside the box was hope. Hope was in the box with all the other stuff. Like why would that be the case?

Sometimes some folks have positive, that hope is the evil that lives within its, inside the box with all the other bad things. So it's not muna laterally good, because you can create so much pain in suffering. Hope is a very tRicky thing.

We need IT more than we think, like the ability to feel like things could actually improve. Without that, life would be a spotter's IT would be an absolute miserable hl. And people experiences hope in ways that they're not even conscious of experiencing.

So that's one thing. The second thing I want to say, particularly about in sales, it's because it's also related to depression. So there is many different forms of narses ism and I know that's a loaded word.

So i'm approach this more clinically, which is, uh, we all kind of start out narrow stic. All children are inherently narcissist because they can't do perspective taking, which means that their impaired ability is completely offline, like they can't help but think at the center of the world. And as the age in the world genre, more or less software and more or less harshly, beats that misconception out of them, right?

When we talk about narsisi, its individuals, who, for whatever reason, have avoided disait busing themselves of that falls acy of the necessity for perspective, taking theory of mind and setters A, A into adult od. But there's many different kinds. You look at the D, S, M, and you just see one flavor of narcy is which we might call the grandiose narcissist.

I think that i'm the god gift to women. I can. I can not succeed. Everybody loves me. I'm far more important, powerful than I actually am.

But we might posit there's another foreigner theism that's called like inverted north ism, an inverted nurses ism, I think, is very much related to depression. It's the idea that like, oh, I am so broken and damage that nothing could possibly fix me. Happiness is is for something else.

It's not for me. It's like a negative form of specialist. I'm so broken that i'm a unique exception to the rule.

This treatment would never work for me. This protocol would never help I want because I am this special negative exception to the general rule. And that's a form of nurses ism.

And it's very difficult to I have actually a lot of sympathy for narsisi. I've worked with some of them clinically. I've worked with enough of them to know that they're actually very scared heart children underneath, and they've done the best they can develop this wall of defenses around them.

And when that north sides c sad, which could be i'm fantastic or i'm so uniquely the negative exception to everything when that collapse is they're back down being the scared, shivering four year old, even if they might be thirty years old or sixty years old. And they kind of have to begin building up emotionally from there, which is a very daunting prospect if theyve already live decades of life. But there's really know the way that they can begin to ground themselves authentically in their own being.

And and I can work like after that nurses static collapse, people can begin to build themselves up based on their authentic foundations. It's very, very difficult to do so. I think that this phenomenon that you described in the insel movement is sort of related to this is that I am this unique negative exception.

In great school, I learned in my assessment class that people were would rather be told that they have below average intelligence than average intelligence. Like if you gave somebody an I Q test and you had to administer, interpret the results, more people needed like counselling and consoling to be told that they were averaged intelligent than if they were below average. Because on some levels, like eyes, I was special in some way, even if that special was negative, that seems to be almost like a badge of honor to to a lot of folks. There's there's nothing that more people fear than just being average, which most people are by definition. Of course.

that is fascinating. I ablution love that story I learned about herostratic fame, what to have from my friend winter a couple of a couple of weeks ago. Herostratic fame.

Many people would rather be hated than unknown. In ancient greece, heaven atas burn down the temple of optimists, purely so he'd be remembered. Now we have nuisance influences who streamed themselves committing crimes and harassing people to leave a cloud. And it's not too dissimilar to what you were just talking about, which is that people would rather be special but so optimal than average, average inal.

We see that all the time in adolescence when there's trouble in the household or emotional neglect, they often acted out in in most people, no matter what their chino logical age is, are emotionally at a lesson.

Yeah, that's interesting given that you ve worked with and you know, I think you work exclusively with men .

in mcclennan practice, I work exclusively with men, but I do consultations with men and women.

Do you what do you think about the effectiveness and chAllenges of therapy for men and women? There's a lot of talk on the internet at the moment. A lot of criticism about therapy for man is geocentric it's female focus IT it's designed for women is instantiated by women um what's your what have you come to to learn and understand about the role of therapy for for men in its effective missing chAllenges?

I think it's something that really does change depending on the gender match between the client and the practitioner. I know that there are certain topics in particular that men would likely feel far more comfortable talking with another man. These include anger and aggression, these include their own sexuality ah these include discussions of power. And I think .

that there .

are other topics, including there is that women are going to feel way more comfortable discussing with other women and that's fine. But the idea that the way that men communicate is the way that women should, or vice versa, that's not quite true. And the vast majority of talk therapy, for Better, for worse, is gear towards women.

I think eighty five percent of my cohorts in my professional school were women. I interviewed at places that didn't have a single man on staff, like the vast majority of all kinds of mental health provisionals are women. The vast majority of mental health service clients are women, mean they use therapy three to four times as often as men do.

So it's sort of like reflected in that marketplace. And I think that the way that men and women approach problems, there's a lot of overlap. But there's also some fundamental differences, fundamental differences that are kind of revealed in some of the steroid pic arguments that happened between many of women and relationships.

Women comes home. She's out of source to have something to happen, another job and she's talking about IT. The guy starts offering solutions and the woman says, I just want you to listen is like, of course, i'm listening.

That's how I know that. I think that this is going to work. I just want you to just sit there and listen, what the fuck is gonna do anything? How was I going to help 啊？ You just don't get IT.

Yeah, I guess I am fine. You just want this problem that so IT doesn't work. Women actually just want to talk a lot of the times, and if they can get IT out, they feel Better.

And a lot of guys are just a scratching your heads, like half of, does that help anything? Like most men are more problem solution oriented, their action oriented. They want to solve the source of the problem, as IT exists in reality, either out there or in here.

And then they can move on with their lives. A lot of men, including myself, see talking simply for the sake of talking, to be more or less so pointless endeavor. Very .

interesting. I've i've started back a therapy in awesome, have been doing IT maybe three, four months now, three months, four month, something like that is very interesting. But IT, it's made life in some ways more difficult because IT stars up things that are much more difficult to forget about you like your story about victo hug o story interesting.

And i'll probably be thinking about that at some point. So like, that's cool. Like I got this image of the hug O. But if I wanted forget about, it's not going to be keeping me awake tonight.

But if you have a particularly, at least in my experience, of particularly illuminating a therapy session, there are things about myself that I literally didn't know existed three hours ago. And two hours ago I stepped out of the therapy office and now i'm sitting down at dinner. And all I can think about is this new thing.

And um well, I mean, IT IT is in some ways, but in other ways, like you still need to you need to go through the world as a functioning person. You need to not permanently be thinking or talking or exposing and expanding on whatever the first thing was that he just talked about, right? That would that won't be good. You you need to keep things IT stars up in the at least the best approximation. I can say IT serves up things that are sufficiently deep that is very hard to not think about them and that's relatively rare.

That won't last forever. I mean, if this is something that kind of blindsided you that you even know existed inside of you, it's going to take some time for you to integrate that into your preexisting personality structure. And so maybe there will be some time that you'll have to devote to making sense of what you've learned about yourself, but that won't be forever.

I started bottom, the pit of of as yet undiscovered things that are going to be.

There might be, there might be, but there might also be in there might be diminishing returns of investment for you to seek them out in and integrate them into your existence like maybe you're doing a good enough job as IT were given your preexisting self knowledge, you know?

And for a lot of people, that the truth and they run into issues when their self knowledge in their behavioral routines and their world view come up against something that creates pain, that create suffering, there is friction, there is resistance, there is failure in loss. And they don't know how to hand handle IT using their preexisting knowledge base. And so that's the time to potentially go in and and grow and expand. But yeah, there's a time to plant, there's a time to rep, there's a time to just get on with the business of living as opposed to inter respect simply for the good of introspection. Yeah.

that's that's a really interesting point thinking about. When you're supposed to stop doing all of these practice runs and actually just get out under the field of play and make things happen in the world, again, this is another criticism I haver on monk mode, which is the purpose of monk mode is supposedly to prepare yourself and improve yourself to become a Better version of you.

T so that then you can step out into the world is a more fully formed, Better, more social, more likeable, more successful, Better baLanced person. But monk mode, as an end in itself, cuts off the why and just continues the how for forever, right? IT bill perking says delayed gratification in the extreme results in no gratification.

And monk mode can be very gratifying, which is great and and fun. And I had huge success, huge, huge success, that on accounting, new castle on time, doing breath work, or meditation or journal, or reading, fucking in in yoga or whatever IT was I was doing that month. But I realized I the addictive nature of IT, especially if you're it's a particular pitfall, if you're someone a little bit introverted ally inclined because IT legitimately your own retreat from social life and IT gives you nobility in isolation.

And that is something where you need to go. Okay, like that's cool. Like it's cool that i'm doing this on my own and it's great. And this is my rocky cut seen. But like the purpose of the rocky cut scene is to then prepare him to go and do the next thing, which is really like good sticking around and just doing on your own. I think results net overall in a loss.

I would agree. And I think that monk mode is probably the less common manifestation of this. More common manifestations of the socially are like education is for the sake of education.

There's a lot of Young people, because of the way the educational system works, they haven't developed at any kind of self direction. And they go to college more less because it's expected they graduate and they think i'm unprepared for adult life. Maybe i'll go get a masters.

Agree, and they do that for you to and they graduate and a little bit older and they're still unprepared for you. Maybe i'll get a doctorate. That definitely happens.

Earth therapy, it's just like therapy is not a means to its own end. It's a means to get back on your feet, to move on with the business of life. And to use your point about the rocky cut scene, the reason why is training at all is because he has an upcoming fight with Apollo.

Without that fight, there would be no necessity for him to train. People who are training without the fight may become trapped in their training as a means, as an end to itself. So I think the goal is really, really important.

The goal is the pretext for action and also let you know when you get to stop because you should be good enough relative to what you actually do accomplish in the world. There's a time to move forward. There's a time to move on.

I think IT is a reverse as well um which is the importance never being gotten round to because the urgent always gets in the way and that is oh you know therapy or the gym or diet change or having that conversation with my partner or leaving that apartment this in the day area of town or existing relationship that I don't like, whatever i'll do that when there's not so much on the plate, when were not so busy, when not whatever, whatever, whatever. And this is the reverse.

There's never an idea on time or to see another way. Now is the only time that action can occur. The present moment is the only time in which we can do anything.

So if not now, when it's like i've never seen tomorrow, i'm forty one years old, i've never seen IT. I'm i'm losing hope that I ever will see, you know. I mean, so it's like if I want to do something now is the perfect time to do IT because it's literally the only time anything can be done.

You you can begin to expand your conception of tempo reality in that way to have the present moment, like the dilate, and expand both instance is in the past, in the future. And you can see that now you're poised for action in the present moment. This is the moment that you've been waiting for your whole life is actually conspired to bring into this exact point. Now, I was the time to act. I love IT arran taribo.

ladies and gentleman. Why should people go? They want to keep up to date with your work. They want to check out all the things that you do. Where do you want people to head on the internet?

certainly. Well, I have a youtube channel called psychic, so you can find my content there. My website is ryan taribo sid 点 com， their links on my youtube channel.

My side business is that Jerry sell study programme is called teller. Jury is the only empirical validated test prep system on the planet. I went all the content myself. Um it's also the most affordable option on the market. So if you're gone to grad school, you might as well check IT out to log ary 点 com。

Oh yeah, right. I really appreciate you on a massive fan of your work. And I look forced to chat to you again as well.

This was great. Is I was really happy to meet you. Thanks for having me on.