Wildfire Wake-Up Call: How To Protect Your Home and Finances If Disaster Strikes
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I'm Nicole Lappin, the only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. It's time for some money rehab. You have it.

Hi, money rehabbers. It's Pamela Mosgarrett, aka Law Mother. I'm a lawyer specializing in growing and protecting your wealth. And this week, I'm filling in for Nicole while she's out on maternity leave. The recent wildfires in Los Angeles have left many families devastated, facing the unimaginable reality of losing their homes. As you all know, this happened to Nicole. But even for those who still have a roof over their heads, this is a wake-up call.

If disaster strikes, will your insurance company actually have your back? Today, we're talking to an insurance lawyer who helps homeowners fight for the payouts they deserve. Whether you've lost everything in the fires or just want to make sure your policy is solid, this conversation is for you. Welcome, Susan. Can you please introduce yourself? Sure. I'm happy to be here. Thanks, Pam. My name is Susan Minamizono. I'm

I've been an attorney since 2008, originally from Southern California, where I actually represented insurance companies, made the move to Colorado in the last eight, nine years. And so I've been doing this insurance coverage and bad faith litigation work at the law firm of Levine Sitkoff since I've been here.

Thanks, Susan. Let's start by talking about homeowners who lost their homes. What should a homeowner do immediately after their house is destroyed? Yeah, and that's a really important question, Pam. Before I start answering, I just wanted to insert a disclaimer, as we attorneys like to do. So what we talk about today is not offered as legal advice, but that our chat today really is for informational purposes only. So

So yeah, to answer your question, Pam, what should a homeowner do immediately after their house is destroyed? Take a pause, surround yourself with all the support you need. And then as soon as possible, number one, contact your insurance company, notify them of the loss and request a certified copy of the policy, which means essentially you want the complete copy of the policy. Okay. So you could check for coverages and limits.

Number two, start keeping receipts of all your expenses. So for your hotel stays, meals, clothing, transportation, all that could be reimbursable under what's called ALE coverage that we'll probably touch on later. And number three, I would start getting rebuild estimates, especially if your home's been destroyed.

I know it's a really emotional time and it's hard to put everything together, but you should start contacting local licensed contractors, essentially because what I've seen, at least with the clients that I represented who were affected by the Marshall Fire here in Colorado, the clients that contacted contractors within weeks of the loss were

were one of the first ones to rebuild in their communities. You're going to be stuck in a queue, right? If there are hundreds or even thousands of homes that were destroyed in a fire. Better yet, if your whole neighborhood was affected by the fire, find a mass builder with your neighbors who might be able to rebuild multiple homes at a lower price. So those are the three things that come to mind.

Very helpful. I think one thing that you mentioned was a certified copy of your policy. And for those who don't understand what that means, could you just maybe expand on what that is and why that's so important? Yeah, because oftentimes when you access your insurance company portal, you'll get a summary, right? Or maybe you'll just get the policy declaration pages, which is essentially the first two or three pages of the policy that lists the policy limits and the types of coverages you have.

What you don't have is the bulk of the policy language that lists all the exclusions and conditions and payout arrangements, that sort of thing. So when you ask your insurance agent or broker or the insurance company directly, hey, I want to certify a copy of the policy, they're obligated to send you the entire policy. And then...

The other thing you mentioned is if you are in a neighborhood, and I know the Marshall fires here in Colorado, and we've been talking about Nicole, who is in Los Angeles with the LA fires, you mentioned the tip about getting together with your neighbors. And if there are larger builders who will build kind of the homes together, does it matter that multiple neighbors might have different types of insurance carriers? Like, does it have to all be the same insurance carrier? Or can you explain, expand a little bit more on that?

Yeah, it doesn't have to be, right? It's essentially, yeah, every homeowner has to approach their insurance company separately. But what a mass builder will typically do is because they're building multiple homes within a close proximity at the same time, their prices go down. And oftentimes insurance companies like that, right? It's closer to probably their low ball estimates that they issued at the beginning.

What's the best way to document damage for an insurance claim? I can't stress enough, Pam. Put everything in writing. You want to avoid, as she said, they said situation. I've seen folks keep journals, for example. So they would write down every conversation, phone call with the insurance company, noting dates and names and details of the conversation.

For the really important conversations with the claims adjuster, you should email a summary of your phone conversation after you had it and include at the very end of the email, "Please confirm in writing as soon as possible if my understanding is incorrect." That way, the adjuster would, I believe, feel compelled to respond as quickly as possible if, in fact, your summary was incorrect.

Another thing is take clear photos and videos of your home, your property. I know that could be a tough one. So ask a friend, ask a family member if they're able to take their phones and take pictures of the neighborhood, of the home, whatever's left standing. And then start thinking.

an inventory list if you don't have one already. Document the items that you had, the rough purchase dates, brands, estimated values. Again, get family and friends involved and just spend a few minutes every day on that because that is a really, really big task. So you really want to chip away at it little at a time.

You mentioned kind of your emails to the adjuster, your claims adjuster. You have a phone call with them, send them a summary of what you did. I guess something that comes to mind or a mistake that I've seen is people not realizing that what you put in email could become evidence down the road in a trial. So can you touch base on maybe what you wouldn't want to include in the email and some tips around that if you are sending summary emails afterwards, some do's and don'ts?

Yeah, such a great point. I think it's, I usually take the step away from the computer rule for every email that I send, especially to opposing counsel. We know we do this. And so if you're feeling extremely emotional, right, about a conversation, go ahead and type it, but don't send yet. Keep the tone as professional as you can. Don't insert too much of your opinion of how this claim is going. I wouldn't,

Also, actually bring up, oh, well, this is what an attorney told me and this is bad faith conduct and blah, blah, blah. Simply write down what exactly the adjuster told you with respect to the claims handling and keep it as factual as possible.

Yeah, you touched on that for a moment and it made me think about social media and the mistakes people make where they're then posting on social media certain things about what happened and what people have said. Can you touch on that as well? That's a really tough one, right? Because unfortunately, I know, and I've seen it with the martial fire survivors, that's their community, right? They're all going through extremely devastating event and they're doing it together. And so-

Interestingly enough, sometimes though the clanging bell does get the attention, right? And so, yeah, there needs to be a balance. And I'm not sure how I can really suggest what that balance be. But certainly, yeah, I think you do want to be careful. You don't want to...

Again, I would just step aside, even if you're about to post something because you're so mad, right, on Twitter or Instagram, just step aside and just think, okay, is this going to affect me?

claims handling moving forward. And honestly, I think there are some claims adjusters who do react to how the homeowners may communicate to them, right? And they could, and I've seen it in communications and the claims that I've helped or suits that I've helped handle, where you have a difficult client, you have a difficult homeowner, right?

And the responses by the adjusters are pretty astounding. I think they're probably pissed off and taking things personally. And so if you could tone down as hard as it is, right? Because again, it's an extremely emotional, devastating time. Just check yourself, right? And to step back and ask yourself, if I were in the claims adjuster shoes, how would I want to be addressed? Right?

Yeah. And I think, at least from my experience too, where people make mistakes is the adjuster. If you keep in mind down the road, if this ends up in trial, which most cases will resolve, but if it does end up a trial, if the adjuster is being inappropriate in emails to you and losing their mind, that's all going to help your case.

And the evidence is going to be you being professional, you being calm. And whatever you put on social media is pretty much going to be fair game in the case. And so knowing, I think a lot of people think, oh,

I can just delete the post later and that's destroying evidence. So I feel like it's always like that's the after the fact, the reaction afterwards where people are like, oh, I wish I wouldn't have made that post on social media. I didn't think it would come into my case and it will. So you're once, you know, that happens, everything you post online is fair game. Yeah, you're absolutely right. All

Are there any deadlines homeowners need to be aware of when filing a claim? It really is dependent on your policy. And that's why I can't stress enough how important it is to get a complete copy of your policy. There might be a claim filing deadline. Oftentimes, policies will just say file your claim within a reasonable amount of time.

What does that mean? So yeah, just check for a certain language. Some insurance policies might require you to file a kind of more formalized proof of loss, which is essentially a one or two page document that you may or may not have to notarize. Essentially just saying, yeah, I lost my home, right, with the date. And when the event of a declared state of emergency, like the one currently in LA, there are laws, again,

Again, this differs state by state, but there may be laws that would extend certain deadlines for things like collecting benefits for additional living expenses or allowing additional time to capture depreciation while you're rebuilding. So, yeah. And I think it's as a layperson, again,

The best way to find out, again, is going to your Department of Insurance, the state's Department of Insurance website. And oftentimes, the insurance commissioner will post summaries of laws that might be applicable to your loss. What are the most common reasons insurance companies deny or delay wildfire-related claims? I think the problem really comes down to, number one,

The dispute between the insurance company and the homeowner regarding the extent of the damage, right? And so insurance companies from the get-go, typically, they'll undervalue rebuilding costs. They use cost-estimating software that...

may or may not be accurate in the event there is a total loss. And of course, this will lead to a lot of back and forth between the insurance companies and the homeowners and their contractors, right? Example, I do have family members who were affected by the LA fires recently. They had to push back against their insurance company

Because they were lowballing them with respect to repairing the smoke damage at their home. And I think a lot of the smoke claims fall into this category as well because, of course, there were a lot of homes destroyed in LA fires, but there were also what's called standing homes, right? The homes that got smoke damage but are still standing. A lot of insurance companies will say, oh, yeah, it wasn't destroyed, but we all, it just only needs a light cleaning, right? And they won't pay for anything

any type of post cleaning testing by an industrial hygienist to make sure that the light cleaning was enough. So again, there's a lot of back and forth, right? And that can cause the delays. And incredibly, some insurance companies will go to the point of disputing the cause of the damage. So you have a fire, right? And again, a smoke damaged home.

And some insurance companies will argue that there were pre-existing issues like wear and tear, right? That contributed to the loss. For example, I represented clients

in the Marshall Fire here in Colorado, whose home was heavily smoke damaged and heat damaged. And the insurance company refused to pay for the replacement of the heat damaged windows because of the age of the windows. I can't say insurance companies are deliberately denying and delaying wildfire claims, but certainly there's a lot of just dispute. I think it comes from insurance companies

from the outset, low balling, right? The repair costs or the replacement costs from the beginning. Well, thanks for sharing that. And I'm sorry to hear that your family members have had to go through all that and have had that loss. It sounds like what you're saying is homeowners should push back if they feel like their claim has been undervalued. Is that your thought? Yeah, absolutely. It would start off by getting, again, your own estimates, getting that, find that licensed contractor, um,

And if you have concerns that you've been going at this for a few months, another thing that you can do is contact your state's Department of Insurance and they'll allow you to file an online complaint. And what happens typically is that the Department of Insurance will forward your complaint to the insurance company and give them a certain timeframe to respond to the homeowner's complaint. So

You may see some movement right after that. You may not, but that's certainly a good avenue. Obviously, if that doesn't work out, seek legal help from a qualified law firm that specializes in insurance coverage and bad faith litigation. Hold on to your wallets. Money Rehab will be right back.

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You mentioned earlier when you're emailing your insurance adjuster, don't be like, this is bad faith. But could you talk about what are the signs that the insurance company is acting in bad faith and what should homeowners do about it? Yeah, separate flags obviously include the repeated delays.

right you're gonna find yourself unfortunately especially after a wildfire or a mass disaster situation multiple adjusters on your claim because they're just not enough staff right to keep to handle all these claims and so i think it's a problematic though if these adjusters keep asking for more paperwork and sometimes for the same paperwork that you submitted previously

and the claims not barely moving forward. That's certainly a red flag. Another one is a claim denial with no clear explanation. I've seen letters that look like someone just cut and paste policy language that doesn't apply to the reason of the denial, at least from my perspective. So if you're seeing a lot of that, certainly that could be a sign. And then again, like the lowball offers,

Expect a lowball offer at the beginning. But if, again, the needle doesn't move too much, despite you submitting multiple contractor estimates, and the insurance company is still saying, nope, our vendor and our consultant is still saying the repair should take or should stop.

be $50,000 less. That could also be a sign. You mentioned this relationship and documenting and that you might have lots of adjusters. And earlier you mentioned this tip that I want to highlight here that keep records of everything you're all, when you're talking to who, what they're talking about, send an email afterwards summarizing. And I just want to highlight it here because I don't think people really realize if they're not in your position that the insurance company is keeping detailed records.

So there on their end, there's a claims file where they're every adjuster is documenting every interaction with you, what you say. And sometimes it might be right. Sometimes it might be wrong. And until you get to the point with having a lawyer, there's no one on your side doing it unless you do it. And have you found that that's really helpful that people do that from the beginning? Yeah.

I found it extremely helpful. I've had very detail-oriented clients who, from the beginning, took copious notes. And you're correct. I think claims adjusters do try their best to accurately memorialize their conversations with homeowners. But I will tell you that there have been plenty of claim file notes that I've seen that are missing key information.

that are found somewhere else in the claim file, right? That aren't necessarily noted by the adjuster during the phone conversation or soon thereafter.

Yeah. And for you as the homeowner, this is a very critical moment in your life, a very important moment in your life. For the claims adjuster, they have a huge caseload. They're dealing with multiple clients. It's very easy for them to not get to things. And so you doing that is so vital. At what point should someone bring in an attorney to fight their insurance company?

Yeah, it really depends on the state where you live in. But typically, when you're pursuing the court of bad faith, there's a statute of limitations of two years, essentially what they know that means you have two years from oftentimes a date of loss to file the suit. Wow, but but certainly you can calculate the two years from the date, the homeowner realized that there was bad faith conduct by the insurance company.

But all that said, I wouldn't wait longer than a year and a half before contacting an attorney just because there are these statute limitations issues just to get an evaluation right early on to determine if there should be a lawsuit filed. And I will say that for the Marshall Fire case.

cases, I remember filing multiple complaints around Christmas. And so as a lawyer, I definitely would appreciate advance notice.

Well, you touched on something there because I guess in the beginning, if you're not sure what to do, how to correspond with the claims adjuster, you're not really sure if you're... I guess there's probably some people who don't want to feel like they're overreacting. And there's probably some people who just don't know what they don't know. Is there ever too soon of a time to reach out to a lawyer?

Can you, the moment it happens, could you reach out to a lawyer and start getting some support? I don't think there's a time that's too early to contact an attorney, but certainly there are resources out there for...

climate disaster survivors to consult with before contacting an attorney. For example, there's a great nonprofit organization called United Policyholders who provide various resources online and over Zoom who've really been there for a lot of

victims of climate disaster events here in Colorado, in California, in Hawaii recently. And they have an incredible online library and their website is uphelp.org, uphelp.org.

And so as a homeowner, that might be a good place to start to say, hey, is this conduct normal? What should I do? What are the next steps? I think there's some really good tips in there. And then if you feel like, OK,

Okay, yeah, the insurance company is still acting badly with respect to my claim. It might be time to hire or at least talk to a lawyer. How much does it cost to hire an insurance lawyer? And are there contingency fee options? Again, it depends on the state where you live. There are attorneys who do this on an hourly basis. But many of them do work on a contingency basis, which basically means you don't pay anything up front and that the lawyers would only get a percentage

get paid a percentage if you recover settlement money or win at trial. Just a side note, some states, and I believe California is one of them, if you're insured or acted in bad faith, you could pursue attorney's fees. And then you mentioned some resources that were available to help homeowners navigate this. Are there any state or federal specific resources in addition to the nonprofit that you recommended? Yeah.

Yeah, as I mentioned, the state Department of Insurance websites are just chock full of information. And so you definitely want to start there.

A lot of the governmental agencies will also hold in-person disaster recovery center settings. I know right now, I believe there's a few in California, including one at UCLA. Also, though, while you're in the middle of an insurance dispute, and if there is any concern that you don't have enough insurance funds to rebuild,

start looking into FEMA grants and SBA loans. I know a lot of clients who were able to bridge the gap using those grants and loans. So for homeowners and renters who haven't lost a home, but they've just heard this in the news, they're feeling concerns, preventatively or in advance, what should homeowners look for in their policy to ensure that they're covered for

certain types of climate disasters. Get as much insurance as you can. I can't stress that enough. Like I mentioned earlier, a lot of these cost estimated software that insurance companies use really just

fall quite short when it comes to a total loss situation. When if you're just going to repair part of your home or replace your roof, sure, these policy limits are never reached, right? But if your home was to be subject to complete loss, that's a different story. There are additional coverages like extended replacement coverage,

Some states will, and some insurance companies, depending on the state, will offer 25, 50, sometimes even up to 100%. Buy it. Get everything you can. Sometimes you'll have more options by working with an insurance broker who sells policies issued by not just one, but multiple insurance companies. So you can also keep that in mind. You may need to buy a separate policy for certain climate disasters like,

earthquakes and flood. In California, you would need to buy a separate earthquake policy. And Pam, in a prior episode on this podcast, you're talking about protecting your assets. And you shared with Nicole about how important it is to look at insurance policy exclusions. Yeah, you hit the nail right on the head. These exclusions are sometimes so confusing, right? They're fine print. They're buried with an even more complex policy language. And

So if you take a look at your complete policy and you're thinking like, oh, my gosh, I see these exclusions, but I don't understand them. Reach out to your insurance agent or broker or an insurance coverage attorney who does this work. And then other things to look for in policy are the additional living expenses or ALE, personal property coverages, insurance.

Get the maximum that you're able to, right, within reason. Obviously, if you have very little personal property, you're saying, I need a million dollar personal property coverage. That's not reasonable. Also look to see if there are any specific climate disaster wildfire specific deductibles. So there might be some policies that say, well, there's a deductible of $5,000 in the event of whatever, fill in the blanks.

Just make sure that amount isn't egregiously high. And if it is, just keep that in mind that you need to have that extra savings somewhere. And then if available, try to get a guaranteed replacement cost coverage policy.

These are now unicorns. They're offered by very few insurance companies. I believe prior to the Oakland fires in California in the 1990s, they were a lot more prevalent, especially in California. But these are policies basically ensure that you can rebuild even if construction costs rise subject to terms and conditions.

But again, these policies are rare now, and sometimes they're only issued for high-valued homes. Got it. You mentioned kind of replacement and actual cash value. Can you talk about what the difference is and why it matters? I'm going to put an asterisk in front of replacement cost value, and I'll explain why shortly. Okay.

I'm going to start off with actual cash value policies. They essentially only pay the depreciated value of the lost or damaged property. So for example, if you bought a couch five years ago for $2,000,

the insurance company might say, "Oh, well, it's only worth $500 now," right, based on the age. And so that's what you would get under an actual cash value or ACV policy. A replacement cost value is supposed to pay the amount required to repair or replace the damaged property with the brand new equivalent without subtracting the depreciation, right?

I mentioned a few seconds ago, put an asterisk in front of it. And the reason being, Pam, when you hear the word or the term replacement cost, isn't it fair to say that you would expect to get the full value for the rebuild of the home or replacement of an item? Yes. Right. I think it's absolutely reasonable to think that, but that's not what you're going to get.

Insurance companies, as I mentioned before, they use cost estimating software that oftentimes produce numbers that are lower than what it really costs to replace the property or the item. And again, I'm circling back to and that's why if you are concerned about making sure that you have adequate coverage,

Check to see if there are any insurance companies in your state that offer a guaranteed replacement cost policy. That's super helpful. Thanks for distinguishing that. How often do you think homeowners should review and update their policies? I think once a year or whenever your policy renews is a good rule. Also, if there are any major life or home changes. So if you're adding extra square footage or renovating your kitchen or

definitely contact your insurance company. Also, if you notice, and I don't know how many people have a pulse on construction costs, right? But just give you an example, my neighbor renovated their home, and I found out how much it was for them to add additional square footage. And I thought,

That does not align with the dollar per square footage on my insurance policy. So I contacted my insurance broker and I said, hey, bump my policy limit up. And that's another thing that if you do have that access to information that you certainly do. Also, in terms of like personal property coverage, if you bought something expensive, new art, electronics, jewelry, you're going to want to let your insurance company know.

That's such a helpful example. And I know when I do an annual review with my broker and so they keep the pulse. That's nice. They keep the pulse on construction costs, what's happening in your area and everything.

just since the pandemic, just the cost of construction has gone up so much. It continues to go up. And I'm always shocked when I talk to people and their remodels and how much more it is than I thought. And that's just the reality we live in. So keeping in mind that if you haven't looked at your policy recently, likely you are underinsured. I think you touched on this, but I just want to highlight it. Do most policies cover temporary housing and additional living space?

if your home is lost in a fire? Yeah, they typically do. But again, check your policy, right? Make sure that you have enough coverage. So yeah, your hotel stays, your lodging, increased food costs, especially if you're staying at a hotel, you don't have a kitchen, right? So all your meals that you...

eat out, which should be compensated under ALE. Another thing that people don't know, if you still have items that you want to store, like storage fees would also be covered under ALE. Just be aware that your policies will probably have time limits or dollar limits. And so, but again, if there's a declared state of emergency, a lot of...

States will have extensions for that if it's a time limit situation. And I've seen instances where insurance companies will cut off ALE coverage, even though the homeowner's home hasn't been completely rebuilt. So definitely push back if that's the case. Hold on to your wallets. Money Rehab will be right back. And now for some more Money Rehab.

You mentioned if you purchase new belongings to be sure you're getting it covered. Are there limits on types of personal belongings that are recovered? Is it just whatever you share they'll do? Are there specific limits around personal items generally? Yeah, obviously it differs according to insurance companies, but for certain items like jewelry, watches, furs, arts and antiques, musical instruments, that sort of thing, there are

caps. But that's where if you do have expensive items, and again, this is where and you mentioned that you have an insurance broker, it's just super helpful, again, to have more options. So if you're stuck with one insurance company, and this is all they provide, then you're stuck with it, right. But if you have other insurance companies that provide a separate writer or scheduled personal property endorsement, that will cover the full value of your

Banksy art, then you should definitely look for that. What records should homeowners consider keeping before a disaster happens? So if you have a complete copier, Paul, I feel like a broken record. But yeah, make sure you have a complete copier of your insurance policy. Also records of any home improvements that you've done to your home, contact information for your mortgage company, your insurance company.

If you're able, I would highly recommend working on a complete home inventory list. Take photos, videos, start listing them out. Because I would say that that is one of the biggest complaints that I've heard from my clients is that it is so hard. I mean, you're spending literally hundreds of hours trying to remember everything.

All the items that you've lost in the fire. Not only is it time consuming, but it's emotionally draining, right? You've lost everything. So it's nice to have that list beforehand, right? Before disaster strikes. So that's something I would highly recommend. Should homeowners get their homes independently appraised to avoid what we've been talking about? These low ball insurance payouts. So...

Here's the thing. I think you should definitely speak to your insurance agent or your broker about whether the insurance company will even accept an appraiser's report. So oftentimes insurance companies will say, oh, we don't accept appraisal reports that were completed to qualify for a bank loan because it's different in their calculus. Or they'll say, no, we're not going to accept it because the report is over a year old. Right.

If you're able and you can afford it, I would again find a licensed general contractor or builder who could give you an estimate for the rebuild of your home and submit that information to the insurance company and say, "Hey, your cost estimating software said X amount of money would be enough, but I have a contractor here that's saying otherwise. Can you reevaluate my policy limits?"

So that is certainly an option. What's one piece of advice you wish every homeowner knew about insurance? I touched on it a little earlier, but replacement cost policies, and I'm putting that term in air quotes, they won't always cover the cost to rebuild your home in the event of a total loss. Just like companies generally plan for supply chain risk, you would think insurance companies should plan for climate risk,

But instead of making adjustments to how they issue policies and handle claims, they're essentially offloading the cost to homeowners. So that's the unfortunate reality that I wish every homeowner knew. Where can people find you if they need legal help with their insurance claim and they want to chat with you? So I'm licensed to practice law in Colorado and California, but I currently assist clients in Colorado in insurance coverage disputes and bad faith litigations.

Please feel free to reach out. Our firm's website is levinsitcoff.com. It's L-E-V-I-N-S-I-T-C-O-F-F.com. We're also on LinkedIn. If you have any questions about your policy or you need some type of direction, I'm happy to definitely chat.

Susan, we end all of the episodes of the Money Rehab podcast by asking our guests for one tip listeners should take straight to the bank. Do you have any final words of wisdom for homeowners who want to protect their assets? Yeah, I think you asked about the one piece of advice. So

I think that's still probably my primary. Just know that your policy limits are not accurate. But going back to the home inventory list, I just wanted to break that down a little bit because it is probably one of the most grueling part of dealing with your insurance claim after a loss. Grab your phone and take a video of all the items in your home. Probably mention where you bought it, the estimated value,

and go to every single room and narrate the details. You could also take photos of the receipts and the serial numbers of the more expensive items. But I just recently was doing an app search and I found apps like Everspruce, Home Contents, and Item List that help you catalog all your belongings. And I think that's fantastic. I certainly am going to start. Okay.

I don't have video footage. That's why I'm like, oh, this app looks amazing. So that's, yeah, that's my tip. Well, thank you so much, Susan. This was wonderful. I really appreciate all your tips. Thank you for having me. It was fun to converse with you about a really hard topic. Absolutely.

Before we wrap up, I've got two incredible free gifts for you. First, I want to send you a free copy of my bestselling book, Illegally Ever After, your guide to securing your future and protecting what matters most. And that's not all. We're launching something huge in May, an exclusive new app designed to make growing and protect your wealth even easier. As a listener, you have the chance to join our Insider Beta group and get early access before anyone else.

Claim your free book and beta invite now by heading to lawmotherco.com forward slash money rehab or by clicking the link in the show notes. Money Rehab is a production of Money News Network. I'm your host, Nicole Lappin. Money Rehab's executive producer is Morgan Levoy. Our researcher is Emily Holmes.

Do you need some money rehab? And let's be honest, we all do. So email us your money questions, moneyrehabatmoneynewsnetwork.com to potentially have your questions answered on the show or even have a one-on-one intervention with me. And follow us on Instagram at Money News and TikTok at Money News Network for exclusive video content. And lastly, thank you. No, seriously, thank you. Thank you for listening and for investing in yourself, which is the most important investment you can make.

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