32.15 - MU Podcast - Torsion Vortex Real Estate
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Welcome to Mysterious Universe, Season 32, Episode 15. Coming up on the show, we've got the enigma of the Storm Wizards, how dowsing is connected to Nazi superweapons, and the Ruffum Vortex of disappearing real estate.

I'm your host, Benjamin Grundy. Joining me is Aaron Wright. Disappearing real estate. Yeah, do you want to do the spooky disappearing real estate story or the Nazi superweapons story? Oh, it's so tempting. It's like, I'm going to go with the real estate story. Yes. Yes. Disappearing real estate it is. So from now on, is it going to be like every episode will be choose your own adventure? Except I'm choosing it for everyone else. You just choose it. Okay, fantastic. And you just choose the obvious awful choice every episode.

We're going to revisit a classic on this episode. And I realized we had touched on this in 2015. Okay. So it's nearly 10 years, nearly a decade since we touched on this story. But we're going to look at the vanishing houses of the UK. Oh, awesome. I love this stuff. But ultimately, this is going to lead into Nazi superweapons in a weird way.

In a very weird way. So this appeared at the Above Top Secret forums. Yeah, back in 2015, it was posted by, what's his name again? Greg, uh, Karl Grove. Karl Grove posted this and the original link is dead, but I managed to find this incredible report he did. It's about 95 pages long and he's done updates to it over the years.

Carl Grove was an academic who kind of researched mysterious stuff on the side. And he started looking into this weird phenomenon in Suffolk, where in this village in Ruffham, people were going back like a hundred or more years.

Had started to see this house. Was it the red brick house with the fiery windows? It was always brightly lit and people would come across it and then it would just vanish before their eyes. I don't know about the details of it being brightly lit. You might be getting confused with other cases. But yeah, red brick house with a thatched roof in a Georgian style. Yes. No, I remember some of the stories about that where people came upon it and the windows were blazing.

It was like it was lit from the inside, but so brightly lit that people were like, oh, that's unusual. It's funny you say that because I've got a story from Scotland that mentions that detail. Yeah, right. But yeah, people would see this house and then think, oh, that's a new house. How long has that been there? And then go back the next day and it was obviously gone. But this opens up this whole avenue of research, which led Carl to believe that this area in Ruffham in Suffolk in the UK was

is a window area. Yes. Yep. Where you've got a question, well, if we've got disappearing phantom houses, do you think other weird stuff's going on in Ruffum? Absolutely it would be. And I'm assuming it's probably black dogs, alien big cats, lights in the sky.

Nazi super weapons. Well, I wasn't going to say Nazi super weapons, but I was going to get there. Ultimately, we get to Nazi super weapons. What have you got coming up? Well, actually, after the last episode, you raised this really interesting concept of the weather being associated with paranormal.

activity. And this also was something that you and I have discussed about the idea that, well, if spirits, paranormal phenomena are supposed to somehow manifest in our material reality, well, it needs to draw upon power. It needs to be powered somehow. And some researchers feel that it's actually done through storm activity, thunderstorm activity. And it's this old trope. It's this old Victorian literature trope of it being, it was a dark and windswept evening and the rain pounded upon the house and then

all of a sudden you have a ghost sighting going on. Like it's been around for a long time, but there may be something to that in the sense that, yeah, people really do have or are more likely to have paranormal experiences when the weather is odd. You know, whether it's stormy or there's lightning outside, anything like that, that's just not clear weather, seemingly contributes to an increase in paranormal activity. And there's all kinds. I've got a Native American theme story right towards the end of the segment that seems to

to suggest that the heavy storm activity is associated with shamans. Interesting. So this is where I'll also get into the storm wizards because there is some suggestion that there are people that, yeah, you can look at traditional cultures that will have a medicine man that would be able to summon up these storms. And obviously it's used for things like crops and that kind of thing. But it's also used for purposes of summoning other wizards

entities that come with the storm. So it's this chicken and the egg kind of thing of where it's like, well, does paranormal activity increase as a result of storms or do storms get summoned and then result in an increase of paranormal activity? It's quite strange. It's got to be like the third or fourth lesson when you go to shaman school. Right.

Yeah, summoning a storm. Yeah. Because it's pretty rudimentary. I think so, but it becomes a little bit more complex in some of the stories I'm going to go into because it starts to collide with things like gnomes, pale crawlers, haunted ships, all that kind of stuff seemingly is associated with all things storm or storm related. We'll get to storms at the end of the show. So let's look at this location in the UK. I've got it up on the map here. Let's zoom in.

Yeah, so it's in the east of the country in Suffolk. This is Ruffham. And Carl Grove, he published this report. As I said, I'll link to it in the show notes. I haven't managed to find a copy. Considering that the open library is down, there's like five sources I needed today from open library. Open library has been down for a while, but I found another source. So he worked in psychology of hearing impairment for years, Carl Grove. And

ironically at the end of his academic career he developed an eyesight issue so he had to leave academia and he just started to work on that's a cruel irony yeah he started to work on these um

cases on the side. And one of the reasons he looked into this one is he moved to this area in 2003 with his wife. And I think his wife was originally from this area and she started to tell him some of the strange experiences she had had over the years in Ruffham and Suffolk. Such as? Well, one of them, she was driving home from work and she saw a bunch of men pushing an old mule

mini-minor. It had broken down on the road and they were pushing it, three men pushing it. And as she got closer, she saw them kind of disappear. They pushed it over a hill and disappeared over the hill. And when she got over the hill, she was on a little scooter. They were gone, vanished. And they were all wearing like old-fashioned clothing. And then later, years later, a similar thing happened on the same stretch of road where she saw an old elderly woman riding an old-fashioned bike. Same thing. She kind of disappeared around the corner.

And was vanished. She was nowhere to be seen once his wife went around the corner as well. So there were a couple of these instances where he thought, you know, that's weird. And he'd heard this story as well of this missing house, this vanishing house. I'll take you back to where this all started. It was October of 1926 and there was a Reverend Wynne who had just moved from, I think it was from Ireland, and he moved to be the Reverend at the rectory. Brought his wife, obviously, and his daughter Ruth moved in with them.

Now, Ruth was a tutor and she ended up taking on one student. Her name was Evelyn. And they had this routine. This is like, again, October 1926. They had this routine where Ruth and Evelyn were

They would go through their lessons and then they'll go for a walk through the countryside. Sure. Yeah. Nice leisurely walk. And one autumn afternoon, they decided to walk to the Bradfield St. George Church, which I'll put on the screen here. This, you know, charming old stone building, probably been there for hundreds of years. Yeah.

And there's evidence that the town was actually bigger in the past because it's a really big church for a small town. Right. So it probably was a wealthier, bigger area in the past. But this is what she wrote. She said it was one dull, damp afternoon and we walked out through the fields towards the church in our neighboring village. She describes walking through a farmyard where they came out onto a road and she said she hadn't previously taken this route before.

And she said,

Georgian designed windows. The rest of the house was hidden by the branches in the trees. And I did an AI image. This isn't obviously what she saw, but it's close. Yeah, that's what you'd imagine in your mind. Georgian style house that she saw. She said, we stood by the gates for a moment and she starts speculating because they've just moved to the area.

They've been there a few months. And it's a small village. And when you move in, everyone comes to visit and introduce themselves and bring a dish or something and be friendly. And she thought, that's a bit strange. How come we've never met them? They've never come to introduce themselves. That's a little bit rude. Oh, they don't interact with the commoners. Yeah. Who are these people in this nice house? So anyway, they didn't think too much of it.

And they left the church. They cut through the churchyard, went home. And she said, on arriving home, we discussed the big house and its possible occupants with my parents, and we thought no more of it. Now, he brings up

Carl brings up a map of the area. This is what it would have looked like in 1920. And so I've put a little arrow there, which is the Colville's Grove, which they would have walked through. This is basically where they saw this phantom house, which is an important piece of data that comes up later. So later she said, my pupil and I did not take the same walk again until the following spring.

A dull afternoon with good visibility in February or March, we walked up through the farmyard as before and out onto the road and suddenly we both stopped dead. Where's the wall? Where's the house? She said, it was not there. The road was flanked by nothing but a ditch and beyond the ditch was wilderness, tumbled earth, weeds and mounds all overgrown, which we had not seen on our first visit.

We followed the road around the bend, but there was no gates, no drive, no house to be seen. Was there any, you know, building rubble or, you know, maybe bricks or something like that? No, but that does come up later because Carl goes to the site himself. She said upon closer inspection, there was small pools amongst mounds where a house had been visible. So, yeah, she does say that there was mounds. Obviously, these mounds had been there a long time though.

So she ended up sending her account to a Sir Ernest Bennett, sorry, who ran like Mysterious Universe on the BBC in the 1920s, which would have been cool. He did a supernatural show and he managed to locate Evelyn, who was her pupil, and she backed up the story. And so this was the first time a story like this had appeared in the area. And you might think, okay, they got lost.

You know, it had been a long time since their first walk. Maybe they forgot the precise field they went to. Well, that, and as you said, well, she's new to the area as well. It's easy to become disoriented and, you know, confuse locations. And I was watching a documentary today of something similar that happened in Essex.

And it was an old couple who came across this house on a walk through the countryside. And they were convinced it was a phantom house because they could never find it again. They did like 100 walks in that area. They could never find it again. And it was funny because I was going to pull a clip out and think, oh, this backs up my story until they bring on this like Richard Dawkins style character. And he's like, he gets out all these maps. He's like, oh, clearly they're quite stupid because the house is right here. And then they follow him with a camera.

Where he takes these two old bitties out. He's like, see how fucking stupid you are? That house is right here. And they're like, oh yes, I guess we are stupid. The house is right there. Are you serious? There are cases where it's just like an old ditty has gone out and gotten lost and they can't find the house again. So was this what happened? But no, you would think that except for the fact that this house has been seen and

Yes, by multitudes of people. Dozens and dozens of times since that initial account in the 1920s. If I recall correctly as well, I don't know if it was this house, but it's consistent with a lot of these reports of these vanishing homes, right? Because there's a few things that obviously could be going on here. I mean, one could wildly speculate. But some people have suggested that this is some type of dimensional rift phenomena that's associated with these window areas. So it's like...

In another dimension, another multiverse, this house actually does exist there. It's always there. And because of that permeability between the reality, sometimes you can see it. Whereas other people suggest that it's a time slip of some kind. But in both cases, many of the people, and this is really important, that come across these houses, they're not in a frantic state.

They're not fleeing something or like it's, they are always going for a calm, leisurely walk. It's like this highway hypnosis I was talking about on the last episode. Well, it's not really the vanishing house that interests me. And yeah, it's intriguing, but it's not, I mean, it's not a dynamite story. It's like a house that you see and then it's not there. It's not a really incredible story. What interests me is everything that goes with it in this area. So, yeah.

Yeah, there's the idea of a time slip, but he points out, Grove points out in his research that it is impossible to find any verification for 100% sure that there was a house built there. Yeah, so this falls into the category of it being some type of dimensional overlay. There was no...

historical knowledge in the community. Like there wasn't, you know, someone whose grandfather was involved in the construction and it burnt down or some tragedy or anything like that. There was no paperwork that showed that there was definitely a house there. There was some mounds and some rubble, but we'll get into that. In the 1980s, the researcher Chris Jensen-Romer, he did a major study of this phenomenon in Ruffham. He investigated the wooded area known as Colville's Grove. They found evidence that a large house had been built at the site.

like I was saying, brick and tile debris. There was also an avenue of trees similar to that reported by the eyewitness. So trees that were lining a driveway. Sure. There's an older map showing a path leading to this area and it showed between 1783 and 1813, there was like a designation for a large house. But again, whether the house was built and destroyed or whether they ran out of money and they only built the foundations or

No one knows. There's no documentation for it at all. So Carl goes to visit the area and this is what you'll see there today. Just a field with some power lines. You know, not very interesting. I mean, you may not know, but how long have those high tension power lines been there?

Probably the 50s or something. Because this is another thing that happens with this sort of stuff is that high-tension power lines are often associated with transient phenomena. Well, they definitely weren't there in the 1920s when they first saw this. No, that's true. But he did say that when he visited this grove...

It's completely overgrown. You can't really see it in this picture, but he has others where it's completely overgrown. There's nettle and bramble and thorns everywhere. It's a major undertaking just to walk around. That's probably a better image of it. But Fassner, is that just like a gap that someone's made? It's almost like that is a walkway that's always been there. Well, yeah. He says you go through, this kind of leads to the block. So it's very difficult to get through there.

Buddy, the thing that I thought was really intriguing is this next image where he shows the trees that have been planted. Now, let me zoom in, especially on this middle one here. And you can see... It's lined up like a plantation. Someone's planted trees on either side, spaced them out evenly. And he says, well, who would do that to an empty block of land? Well, yeah, exactly. Obviously, it's going to something. Unless, you know, I mentioned the word plantation, but would they be harvesting trees?

from there? Is that possible? No, no, no. It's just this straight line going to this empty block with some debris in it. And he says the trees are about 200 years old, which would match up with the timeline. So it does seem like there was a house there. He says it's clear that the witnesses from the 1920s sighting had absolutely no doubts that they were looking at a perfectly ordinary house. And it's worth noting they don't feel any spookiness. Like there's no weird...

chill or there's no Oz effect. There's no weirdness kicking in. It's just a house. So he questions if it's just a house, how often do people see it and think,

Or not think anything at all. Yeah. Like even the locals. Because it's just something that should be there. The other possibility that could be occurring here is that maybe at some point, you know, it just struck me when you were talking about maybe they built the foundation, right? They had the intention of building it. Maybe someone's intention and imagination, it's like a tulpa house, right? They created that house there, but it was never built. But for whatever reason, it's imprinted itself on that landscape. And that's why these people wandering past are actually...

fleetingly seeing. Yeah. Like this guy had the designs, he had the plan, he bought the land. And then he just needed his wool business to make that final deal. And so he spent years or decades focusing and imagining and really conjuring this house. Like if it was something else, you could kind of be like, yeah, but homes, like homes hold a very special importance to people. So they do put a lot of energy into it. I'm not saying that's what occurred here, but it's food for thought. Could be.

We had more data come through from 1975. A gardening magazine, Amateur Gardening, published this article. It's on the screen here from James Cobbold, who was a local resident. He had this story to tell. He first heard about the house way back in 1911.

from a girl his own age when he was about 12 years old. Now, he had heard the story from her and he's like, whatever, sounds ridiculous. But later he brings it up with his grandmother. He says, this girl at school told me this stupid story about this house. And she's like, your father saw that house. He says, what do you mean? It was around 1860. Robert Palfrey had been making a haystack on a warm June evening when he glanced over to see that a house had suddenly appeared on the other side of the lane.

Again, his description matched the sighting in 1920. It was a red brick set in a garden, flower beds full of blooms. It had two wrought iron gates. A sudden chill had developed, which is the first instance we hear of some strange paranormal effect. Palfrey then went home and told his young family about the house and together they returned to the spot, but there was nothing there. Shortly after hearing this tale about his old da,

Cobbold himself saw the house. The local pork butcher who lived in the area would go on his rounds on Saturday and he would deliver his meat to all his customers.

And Cobalt would go with him and help him do all these deliveries. So this was a warm June day, he related in this article. And all of a sudden their horse, so it's a horse-drawn cart, and all of a sudden the horse freaked out. It just started to bolt. It accelerated so quickly. One of them fell out. The butcher fell out. And the interesting thing there is that animals often sense this phenomena before humans do. Exactly. And Cobalt...

You know, he's a young kid, but he manages to wrangle the pony under his control. And as he's wrangling it, he looks over and he gets a clear view of this double-fronted red brick house, three-story, Georgian in appearance. He sees the wrought iron gates, the rose trees. Then he said a mist enveloped it.

And it started to disappear. A strange mist comes over it. These mists. This is what comes up in storm phenomena as well. Yeah. It's like there's something to do with the weather. The butcher gets up and the butcher's like, that effing house again. He says, I've seen that three times. This has happened three times. I've seen that damn house. And it just disappears. It's a very matter of fact about it as well. Like to have that kind of shock response and be like, that damned house. That suggests to me that you're not making up a story. That you're...

excited because you've seen it once again. Yeah, so he wrote this in the paper in 1970. Well, he said his sighting was from way back then, but it was in the paper in 1975. And then we had more cases emerge. So there was the Bentley Davies case. This was in the 1940s. Edward Bentley, he was working for this local men's outfitter named...

What are they called? Auburn Davies. They're still there today, apparently. And he, again, would be out doing deliveries. This time they were driving a car and he spotted a house off to the right and told the driver, Mr. Davies, he says, oh, we've missed a house. You know, back up. We missed a delivery. Because I think they were delivering catalogs or something, right? So his boss kind of backs up and it's just like an empty field with nothing there.

And he says to his boss, he's like, I must have made a mistake. Sorry. And they kept on driving. And for years, he thought that he had just had some mental aberration, like he just hallucinated. But then he started to hear these stories of other people that had seen this house. And where he saw the house was Colville's Grove, precisely where everyone else had seen it. Then we had another case. This was Sandra Hardwick from 1976. She was born in 1962, but she was living in Ruffham in 1976.

And on this warm summer evening, she was 14. She's riding out on a bicycle to meet her friend. They hung out at the local youth club and she promised her parents she'd be home before dark. So it's around dusk and she's riding back home. And there was no wind as she's driving back home. Again, nice pleasant day. She's approaching two bungalows that are on the east side of Kingshaw Street and the house suddenly appeared on her right. She suddenly saw this house.

Out of nowhere. Did she actually see it materialize or she just like just caught her attention? Just popped in. It was just there. She said it had become unnaturally quiet. The house was brightly illuminated. You were right there. The details of it being lit up. It was like the sun had come out on a bright summer's day, but it was now extremely cold. So we've got Oz effect as in no sound. We've got it being lit in a paranormal way. Keep that cold in mind as well. And the chill. Yep.

She said, I thought I was going bonkers. It was beautiful. Thatched roof, windows open, a garden with pink flowers, an iron fence and a gate. So all the details. The curtains are blowing out of the windows. But even though it's this beautiful house, she's terrified. She gets this gut feeling that something is deeply wrong. She rides home. She tells her mother the story. Her mother laughs at her, thinks it's hilarious. But later, her mother's at the post office and the lady at the post office says, oh, she saw the house.

Lots of people have seen the house. Like everyone knows someone who or knows someone or heard of someone who's seen the house. Now, Phil Sage was a local investigator who looked into this quite heavily.

He interviewed Sandra and her mother after the event. She noted that the house had disappeared by the time she reached the Baptist church at the end of Kingshall street. Now he said, when I asked Sandra to specify the location of the house more precisely, again, she pointed out the Grove consistent with the other reports. So it's not a teleporting house. It's always in the same spot. Then we have the Jean Batram case. Here she is on screen here.

It's a cool, sunny Sunday afternoon. This is a more recent one, 2007. Jean Batram and her husband, Sidney, a retired couple living in Great Barton, they decided to go for a drive through the local villages. They hadn't been in this particular region for a while. And they headed down Kingshaw Street past the two bungalows that everyone's mentioning in their reports. Well, it sounds like those bungalows are markers. Yeah.

Yeah, well, people see the house past these bungalows. And I looked them up on Google Maps now, but there's just a bunch of houses there now. And Jean spotted on her left side, guess what? Large Georgian house. It lay across a newly harrowed field in front of some woods. She pointed it out to her husband who glanced at it briefly and thought, oh, it's such a lovely house. We'll have a look again as we drive back through.

And so, of course, they do their round and they drive back through. Nothing there. Now, she was absolutely puzzled by this. And the husband's like, don't tell anyone. They'll think we're crazy. And she lasted about two weeks before she was having a conversation with a friend of hers. And she said to her friend,

I've just got to tell you something strange that happened to us. And her friend's like, oh, you saw the house. I bet you saw the house. She's like, yeah, I saw this house, this weird house that disappeared. She had no idea other people had seen it. So against her husband's wishes, she contacts the East Anglian Daily Times and a story is published. And she was certain, again, that it was a fairly large Georgian style house, that it was standing somewhat to the right of this lane. Now, the lane is called Gypsy Lane.

Which is odd. Why is that odd? Why would you have, like, Gypsy, you have all this disappearing house activity that's called Gypsy Lane. Why is it called Gypsy Lane? So is it, you know, referring to strange and unusual? Is there some kind of Gypsy curse? It's a narrow track that runs from King Choll Street past these bungalows, but it's called a greenway, which was a path used by monks to transport wood to the abbey.

It's apparently subject to unusual happenings. People see strange figures. People see spectral monks on this lane. Let me bring it up on the screen here. So, yeah, this is what it looks like today on Google Maps. It's so green, though, isn't it? I mean, yeah, this is just... In comparison to Australia. The English countryside. If you go up here, this is where the bungalows are.

But it's a couple of houses there now. But that's what they're referring to here on the screen when they say bungalows. But I think these hedges weren't here. So you could just look out and you would see this field completely bare. But this is where a lot of this activity is going on. And she was asked, you know, pick out out of a list of houses, pick out what you saw.

And that's what she picked out. She said it looked just like this on the screen here, which is a red brick Georgian house. Spot on. Now, he starts to look into this Gypsy Lane area and he's like, is there any evidence that there was a house there? Let's look at Google Maps. And he finds this image. Karl Grover finds this image of the location near the lane where the house would have been. And there's this kind of patch in the field. Is that that white patch? Yeah, it's this white patch.

And apparently prior to 1950, the tenant of this farm area, his nephew, John Bennett, looked after the field and he ended up looking into this. And it turned out that there was this area that was never plowed properly.

And when it was passed, because he didn't have a mechanical plow. He just used like an old school one drawn by a horse. So, it was just too difficult to plow there? Well, when it was passed on to a new tenant, they used a mechanized plow. And when they went over this area, they started to bring up all these bricks. There was all these bricks underneath. And they ended up using the bricks to, you know, do their driveways and remove them. But that's probably, he says, that's probably why you can still see this square on Google Maps.

Because the ground has been affected by the rubble that was there. Yeah, there was probably still mortar there or something, so you couldn't really use it as a field. So that's an interesting detail there. And I ended up looking at it today, and today it's just green. So where's the core? Oh, I see. So it's in that core. But no, still, look, if you look on just to the corner there, you can see...

So go back. Yeah. So look in that corner. It's still there. It's still worn a little bit in the corner today, but it's, I mean, so is the rest of the field. Like you can go down here and it's worn. So I don't know if that means anything.

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Okay, I have to tell you, I was just looking on eBay where I go for all kinds of things I love, and there it was. That hologram trading card. One of the rarest. The last one I needed for my set. Shiny like the designer handbag of my dreams. One of a kind. eBay had it, and now everyone's asking, ooh, where'd you get your windshield wiper? eBay has all the parts that fit my car. No more annoying, just beautiful.

Whatever you love, find it on eBay. eBay. Things people love. But yeah, interesting little detail. And then there's other sightings in this area. So in the 1980s, Gillian Cooper contacted the Free Press. She said, 25 years ago, my husband and I were passing through Elverdon from Thetford on the A11, and there was pretty slow traffic.

And to our surprise, on the left, in the vicinity opposite the high column, we saw this massive Georgian mansion complete with pillars and open iron gates. This driveway ending up with a circle effect, high steps going up towards the house. This fantastic sight, 200 yards from the road. I remarked to my husband, we've never seen that before on this road. And she says, guess what? We've never seen it since. It was this one-time sighting and now it's gone. We both saw it, she said.

And all in all, I won't go through all the reports, but there were 20 high caliber reports where, you know, you can track down the eyewitness. It wasn't hearsay, direct accounts from the eyewitness.

And then he just starts to speculate, well, how many unreported sightings are you going to get? There would be many, surely. So many people would have seen it and just never told anyone. Well, also, how many people have just happened to gone through there over the decades and have not even paid attention to it? It's just a house. So they don't even realize that they've just seen some spectral house. So this is where I started to...

kind of get a burning interest in the entire area. Again, I'm not really enthralled by a disappearing house. Like it's intriguing.

But what is it about the area that is causing this disappearing house? So when he started to look into it, yes, his wife had those experiences where the cyclist went missing and these people pushing an old car vanished somewhere. They started to find more experiences like this. So Jackie Humphrey, for example, she hadn't seen the vanishing house, but she was leaving the A14 motorway a few years ago.

She saw ahead of her a cyclist in this area, not the same street, but in this area. He's wearing like an old fashioned get up with a French beret. And she's watching him thinking, man, that's like a really good effort to look old fashioned. And she said he disappeared in this weird glowing blue light, just went and vanished. The cyclist vanished. And then he starts looking into this gypsy lane in more detail. And there were some great stories about the bungalows there.

So the Rose family, they've lived in the second bungalow for many years. On one occasion, Edith Rose, she was knitting in the living room, you know, having a great afternoon and her living room is right alongside Gypsy Lane. She said suddenly this weird dividing line just went down the middle of her living room. What, like a light? She was on one side and on the other side, it was pitch black.

Like if you've ever been down into a dark cave where you can't see your hand in front of your face, that kind of pitch black. And she's like, what the hell is this? She goes up to it. She puts a hand in it and a hand completely disappears. She can't see anything. So she's like, oh, does she feel anything? No, just there's nothing like pitch blackness. And after a few moments, it went back to normal.

At another time, several monks were seen walking past the living room window. Shadowy figures were often seen coming up the front path, always at dinner time. The Rose's horse would refuse to walk past a certain point on Gypsy Lane. And often horses and ponies they noticed would actually freak out along this lane and bolt off. Bob and Wynne Barker, they lived in a house at the northern end of Whitehorse Lane. So this is about 400 yards past this grove where this house is being seen.

They used to say that lights would emerge from a wardrobe in their bedroom and travel to the left about two feet below the ceiling and then disappear into another bedroom. So they had all this weird orb activity going on. And I love this story. There's two elderly ladies and their two daughters who live in the main part of the village. And they've got a good view from their house of the fields where all this is going on.

And they said, not just once, but on many occasions, they would see this kind of rainbow come out of the earth, but at night, like an arc of light come out of the earth and enter into the other side of the field. They said it would stay there for a considerable period. Doing what? Just like glowing. This weird glowing night rainbow. Not multicolored though, just this soft kind of odd light.

She said they've been afraid to mention it to others. It was last seen in 2011, so they're seeing it recently. Also, years ago when Ruffham extended to what is now Morton Hall, they had this railway line that ran at ground level and there was a level crossing where today there's still a small bridge where the railway crossing was. And a local named Peter Webb, he was cycling over the crossing one evening and he saw a body.

lying about 50 yards down the track. And he just thought, oh my gosh, someone's had a heart attack or something. Just prone, looking like a dead body lying on the ground. So he approaches it to lend some aid. He goes to reach to touch the body to shake them and they just vanished. Disappeared before his eyes. Did it look like a soldier or something? No, he just said it looked like a local. Just some guy.

So he then goes back to Phil Sage and he references Phil Sage quite a bit. So again, this local who had done a lot of research in this before Karl Grove came along. Phil had his own weird experience in 1942. He and his wife had just moved to a cottage near the Bennett Arms in Ruffin.

And he was home on extended leave. He heard a noise on the stairs that attracted his attention. And he had just had like a baby girl. So they got their baby in the cot. He looks into his daughter's bedroom and there's this weird old lady he's never seen before standing over the cot looking at his daughter. And he's like, who is this? Like he's watching this with his eyes popping out. The lady just turns, walks towards the wall and vanishes, walks through it.

Now, he doesn't tell his wife because he's like, she's going to be freaked out. I'm just not going to tell anyone. But he did tell an elderly neighbor about three doors down. And the neighbor's like, oh, nothing to worry about. That's just old Millie. You'll see her around. She's fine. She's looking out for your daughter. Old Millie. All right. And then there's another weird one, which I think gives us a clue as to what this might be. Although I'm not 100% sure.

It's from the mid-1980s. It's a young woman called Caroline Boast. She was taking her younger sister, Amanda, on a drive because her sister had just passed her driving test. So they're doing a little celebratory drive. And they're driving along this usual route in this area. And they see a man step out in front of them, not in front of their car, but on the side of the road. And he's wearing old-fashioned Victorian clothes.

He's got a dog on the lead and they drive past him and they both think, that was weird. He's just like really old fashioned, that guy. And they drive a hundred yards up the road and the same guy steps out again in exactly the same motion with the dog. It's like a, it's like a tape on repeat a hundred yards up the road. They see the same guy and the same dog and they're like, what the hell was that? Did they stop? No, they just kept on driving. Yeah, I guess you'd be a bit freaked out. Um,

So it's like the same sequence, the same repeating sequence, like they saw a glitch in the Matrix. Now, there's an interesting detail with these two girls. Their uncle, their great uncle is David Boast. And David Boast was the gamekeeper at Rendlesham Forest. Oh. And he saw, he told them, the UFO descending into that forest the night of the infamous Rendlesham Forest incident.

His father, George, the previous gamekeeper, once saw in the forest what he described as a strange vortex. So he claims he saw this spinning vortex of energy, like sucking in sticks and leaves and like moving across the field, almost like a little tornado, but not something else. Energy of some kind. And that actually comes up later. So keep that in mind.

So from here, Grove goes into, well, just the general history of time slips. And we know this pretty well. We've covered this topic a lot on the show before. An adventure. Yeah. He seems to think that it goes back to Joan Foreman's The Mask of Time, that she was the first person to use the term time slip. Yeah. Right.

She told this great story of Mr. Squirrel, which is obviously a pseudonym, but Mr. Squirrel claims that in 1973, he visited this shop in Great Yarmouth where he had heard that they sold small envelopes and he needed an envelope for his, like a collection of envelopes for his coin collection.

So he goes into this little shop and he's like, man, it is old fashioned in here. You know how the stories go. Everything's from another time. He's like, man, they've really kept this place old fashioned. And he goes up to the shop assistant and she's super old fashioned, like wearing clothes that are 100 years old. And he's like, why is it so quiet in here? I can't hear anything. There's no ambient noise. There's no radios, nothing. It's quieter than a library.

And he explains to the shop assistant, like, I need these little envelopes for my coins. And she brings out this box and she has these plastic packets of little, you know, things that he could use for his coins. And she says, well, we sell a lot of these to the men on the sailing ships. They put their fish hooks in them. He's like, all right, that's weird detail. But yeah, they'll do. Thanks. And she says, that'll be a shilling for the box. A tuppence. That'll be half a shekel for the box. Yeah.

And he's like, all right. He hands over, and obviously that's pre-decimal coinage, so it's ancient. He hands over, I think he handed over like a modern coin, which was more than enough. And he says, okay, keep the change. And he said she looked at it like it was some jewel. She'd never seen anything like it. She's like, what is this? Anyway, he's like, okay, he takes these envelopes. He goes back the following week because he needs more. And the shop's gone.

It's now like a quickie mart or something. And it goes inside and it's all neon and everything's modern. The shopkeeper's gone. He talks to the lady. She's like, what are you talking about? You know, we've been here for 50 years. We've owned this for 50 years. And he's so confused. But the detail I love about this, which is a bit back to the future, is...

He said the paper bag that she gave him the envelopes in disintegrated within a few days. Yeah. And the envelopes didn't disintegrate, but they clearly had atrophied rapidly. They've aged. They'd turned brown and they'd become discolored. You know how plastic just becomes discolored over time. They had...

Do you know where I heard that as well? There was a report of people, it's like these, and there's just so many of them, but it was a classic, and funnily enough, it involves a storm of where they're driving along in this torrential downpour, absolute torrential downpour, this couple, they don't know where they are and they see this light in the distance.

So they drive up to the light, obviously it's along the road, and realize it's like this little roadhouse of some kind. And so they go inside and much like what you've described, but it was normal, but it was dated. Everything was so dated on the inside. They have dinner, they pay with money, whether the waitress or the cashier was kind of strange, and then they leave. And obviously they want to go back later, but they were given a receipt.

Now, in that story, from what I recall, when they looked at the receipt afterwards, it was obviously they drove back on their return journey. There's nothing there, like nothing there at all. They find out later on from some local historian that there had been at one point some type of bakery or something there. Yeah. But the receipt that they had went brown, like brown. They were all kind of like crumbly and like it'd been like hundreds of years. It's a great- Probably not hundreds, but a long time. It's a great little detail. And it's the idea that, yeah, obviously you can't bring things back

From the past. From those times, yeah. Without some kind of effect. But isn't it, it's weird as well because when you talk about things like time slips, you know, one of the arguments which is put forward is that this is some type of

ghostly, it's a haunting experience, right? But those stories of what we just described really highlight the fact that this isn't just simply a haunting because the people are interacting with people that are very solid, even though a lot of ghost reports you can see a solid form, but you're actually interacting with something. Yeah, and it makes you realize it's a little bit more complex than this idea of stone tape as well. Significantly. Something on a replay. It's some kind of residual haunting on a replay effect. Yeah.

Because, yeah, he's interacting with the shopkeeper. He's actually getting an item. The interesting detail about this case, although I don't know how true this is, but...

According to her in her book, The Mask of Time, he managed to track down the manufacturer of those little plastic envelopes and they informed him that they hadn't sold those since the 1920s. Right. Did the detail about fishermen using it for storing their hooks, did that have any importance to it? It wasn't. It wasn't mentioned. The second book that Grove recalls is Andrew McKenzie's Adventures in Time, which I would have been able to get today if the...

The internet archive was packed. Why didn't you tell me? I have it. Yeah, it's probably in a box somewhere and now millions of books, but yeah, I didn't want to go looking for it. There is a case that he mentions here, which is one of the most famous. I'm sure we've covered it. No, not that one, but this is the one from Kersey where three cadets, they're on a training exercise and they enter this village and

And they realize it's now the Middle Ages in the middle of the plague. And I won't go into the details, but researchers who have looked at their claims and all three of them swear by what they saw, like all the old wooden buildings and no glass and not many people around. But remind me a little bit about that story because wasn't it that the villagers, they interacted and they were freaked out as well, weren't they? Yeah, there was some interactions. I'll link to some of the reports in the show notes, but-

But the funny detail with the story is two of the boys, two of the cadets were country boys. And they were like, something's not right. This is seriously insane. We have gone back in time. But the third guy was from Cockney. He was a Cockney kid from London. And he just thought that's what the country was like. He just thought everything was from the 15th century. But I wanted to kind of not dwell on that one because I have a couple of questions.

short clips of some stories from Scotland, which kind of are good to play because they're echoes of what we've been hearing from Suffolk. So this first one is George and Bruce, George Bruce, sorry, and Donald Watt. They're in the Scottish Highlands. They're experienced mountaineers. They're both members of this local mountain rescue crew, but they were out on a weekend hike. And as they were climbing,

coming home, you know, going through the highlands, they saw something strange. Let's take a listen. The two planned to shelter in a ruined house further up the valley. But to their surprise, they spotted another building first. I was about 100 yards behind George up the hill. And I saw this cottage before George stopped. And then he stopped ahead of me. And I got down to him. And he turned to me and said, it's a cottage down there. I said, yeah, I see it. So, I mean, we both saw the same thing. But we saw it quite a bit apart.

The cottage was in clear view at the water's edge, but it was not on the map. The thing that struck me was there was no moss or anything on the roof. Normally in these cottages the slates would attract some moisture, a bit of moss and it would look worn a bit. This thing was not worn. The sun was reflecting off the slates and it was almost as though it had been either in a good scrub to clean it up or freshly built. So we just kept going down.

We went into a kind of little gully system and lost sight of it. Right down to the loch side, walked around the path, anticipating this cottage, there was nothing there. The house had vanished. George and Donald were mystified. Both were completely certain that they had seen a real building from above. I knew exactly what I saw. It was solid, sitting on the side of the loch, on solid ground, with solid ground behind it and all around about it.

Two windows in the bottom, two door windows in the top, two chimneys, no smoke, I'm afraid, but very new looking. I like the details of this one because if you're just listening to the audio, let me describe the landscape. It is barren. There is nothing there. You couldn't miss it if you saw a house. It's not like someone built a cottage there and then, you know, gave up on it. There's no roads, there's no paths, there's like nothing. So what...

What is the explanation for a brand new shiny cottage being there? Well, I mean, it's odd, isn't it? But it's got hallmarks of men in black with their shiny new old cars. Yeah, I was thinking that. Like a brand new Cadillac. I like the detail, how he said normally the tiles would be a bit mossy, but they're brand spanking new and shining. Is it something that's...

cloaking its appearance its true appearance or is it similar to fey folklore like if they went into the house would they ever come out that's a good question but then also in other reports of this like he said there that um there was no smoke coming out of the chimney but other time slip reports like this people say you can see smoke coming out that you can see something going on inside the house it's just it's very surreal it's weird and again it doesn't it rules out stone tape it's

It's definitely not stone-taped. It's not like there was some kind of house there in the past. And another one from this documentary, I'll link to the full thing in the show notes. It's just on YouTube. But there was another case from Scotland. I think this was about 40 miles north of...

A local woman had her own similar encounter. Let's take a listen. We drove along this April evening, peacefully, lovely evening, light evening, and we came round the church and to horror. We saw a large-ish house, high house, blazing, flaming. I mean, the flames were coming out of all the windows, the upstairs and the downstairs, and curling up the lintels.

So it actually was on fire? Yeah. It was like, oh!

The building Susanna saw was on the grass field beyond where the new road now runs. It stood just where the football goalposts are. The blazing house that we saw was just exactly there. And it was very obvious, very clear, it was by itself, those wooden houses weren't there. Eerily, they heard no noise and saw no people. They wanted a closer look. So we set off and we got nearer to it.

And we went quite a distance down. I was driving, but she was watching. And when we got quite near, it vanished, completely disappeared. It just simply wasn't there. But being on fire is strange. Did she mistake it, fire, for just being like what I described earlier in the show of people saying that the house had just very brightly, it was brightly lit from the inside? Maybe. But she said it was melting the lintels, though, so. She seems to know what she's talking about.

But when she's interviewed with the rest of the documentary, she seems to think it's something from the future. Oh, why would she think that?

That's just her feeling. She doesn't really go into why. It's not like it had any futuristic design aspects to it or anything that she mentions. But yeah, that's her gut feeling. Well, you know what, actually? I'm pleased that you raised that. That's rather insightful because when we hear these stories, you tend to think of, oh, it's a house that's been there from the past. But maybe we shouldn't rule out the possibility that it is something from the future bleeding back into the past. Well, another purveyor of these tales is the legendary Tom Sleman.

Sleeman, sorry. I always call him Sleeman. I'm just lemon. Tom Sleeman. We've covered a bunch of his books in the past before. Haunted Liverpool. Yeah, he writes about Liverpool. And it was always my suspicion that Tom Sleeman's work was a little bit suspicious because he seemed to gather so many similar reports from this area. But looking into this, Karl Grove mentioned that he was...

Finding so many reports of time slips, he actually formed a small team of researchers to follow them up and interview the eyewitnesses. So it was more than just Tom, you know, coming up with these stories himself. And he actually has a couple of YouTube videos where he describes some of these experiences. Here's a very brief one from Liverpool. Let's take a listen. Late one afternoon in October 2009, a 39-year-old software developer named Alistair left his Rodney Street office to

intending to visit a friend in Crosby.

but as he reached the doorway of the building he caught a brief glimpse of a girl of about twenty standing on the pavement, and as he looked at her she smiled, ran sideways, and vanished into thin air. A moment later Rodney Street underwent a strange transformation. The road changed from tarmac to cobblestones, and the traffic lights and the car vanished. A few seconds later the traffic lights and the modern road reappeared, and the car vanished.

and there was a burst of multicolored light. The car reversed as a strange lump rose up in the roadway, and then everything returned to normal. Alistair went back into his office in a daze and eventually realized that he'd witnessed a phenomenon that is known as a time slip. Do you know what I reckon that is? I reckon it's like some weird time synchronization. It's like somehow...

the universe, whatever it is, works out that something's out of place in time and it tries to correct it. It's like he's overshot it when it's trying to put him back. And so, of course, then it's had to revert, like a car reverses, the colors happen. But what's the lump in the road? Well, I think that's what it's doing. It's like some weird manifestation of time. Because remember how in the past we've spoken about this concept that time itself is

It actually has physical properties. Like it's a physical substance. And even though we can't actually see it or touch it, in some other dimensional layer, it actually is a physical substance. Maybe that's what that was. That's an interesting idea. Which was like manifesting to cause the car to move back and for time to restore to the right point that he had to be at.

That story actually reminded me of what we covered recently on the Plus episode of this young man leaving a festival in the UK, walking along the river and then coming across this beautiful girl with green eyes and walking with her for some distance before realizing there was something odd about her.

And eventually the Darkman archetype showed up and interfered with their little encounter. Yeah, well, I wouldn't be surprised if the Darkman is like some type of time cop or something similar to that. Well, it's just similar at the start of that story. He's...

his attention is attracted by this pretty girl to his right who giggles and disappears, then he realizes he's in a different time. Like, why would she be giggling at this guy? Like, what's the connection there? It's a little bit more than just a random encounter. So he then goes into some of the other stories from Liverpool. I won't spend too much time on them. There's one I thought was good where it's a woman who she goes to the...

you know, we've got baby bunting in Australia. What's the- Mother care. Mother care. She goes to this UK, you know- Kid shop. Kid shop for babies. You get all the nappies and the little clothes and everything you need, the prams. She needs all this stuff for a new baby. So she goes there and she's like, this is incredible. Everything's so cheap. Everything's on sale. It's so cheap here. So she fills up her cart, buys all this stuff, puts it on the counter, and then she goes to pay and she hands over a credit card and

And the woman's like, what's this? And she calls over the manager and the manager holds it up. And he's like, we don't take these and just hands it back. She's like, what are you talking about? And he's just, sorry, we can't help you. So she ends up going home. She puts it all back. She doesn't have any cash. She puts it all back. She goes home and tells her mother. And her mother's like, are you sure? Because that's an HSBC branch now.

that mother care store hasn't been there for a long time. She's like, no, mom, it's there. We'll go back tomorrow and have a look. So they go back the next day and it's obviously an HSBC. The bank's there. Hasn't been mother care in like 20 years. So there's stories like that. Again, I don't know how true these all are, but they have been collated. Some of them have been followed up and eyewitnesses interviewed. Yeah, there was a really great research as well. And off the top of my head, I can't recall who it was, but it was like a time slip that occurred

within the floors of an apartment store, so a department store. Now, if I recall correctly with this one, it was that a woman was waiting for her husband to finish work or something. So she's like, oh, I'll just duck into this department store. She goes to one level and it's like, everything's in the past. Much like what you were describing, everything was just, it was just, and she got back into the lift and

to find her husband. She's like, oh, we'll go back to the level. And when she went back to that level, obviously it was all modern. Well, from here, Karl Grove expands out into some possible explanations of what's going on. Is this how we get to Nazi superweapons? Eventually, yes, we will land on Nazi superweapons. So in the 1970s, Phil volunteered to help archaeologists search for Roman artifacts. This is Phil Sage, the local researcher. And there'd been a bunch of Roman graves found in the region.

And he was using a metal detector to try and find Roman artifacts in this field. And he heard this rushing noise behind him. Now, he had his metal detector headphones on, but then he eventually realized the noise wasn't coming from his headphones. And he turns around and he claims there's some kind of swirling vortex in the field behind him. And it's like a wheel and it's sucking in sticks and branches as it's moving through it. And it's heading towards him.

He said he didn't move. He just stood there. This vortex swept past him and he said instantly he felt sick. Absolutely terrible. He said it continued on when it reached the end of the grove. Everything went quiet. Phil remained in this shaken state for some time afterward.

And when Carl spoke to him, he said, do you think your metal detector attracted it somehow? And he thought maybe that's a possibility. But later, two boys scrumping apples along a hedge in Bradfield, St. George, near where Phil believes the two ladies saw the house in 1926, they claim they also heard this rushing wind-like sound.

and saw something similar whirling around with sticks and debris in it, like a kind of mini hurricane, this vortex traveling through the field. So the question arises, is it the vortex being a factor in the generation of the sightings of these houses in possible time slips? And if you remember, I mentioned George Boast earlier.

from the guy that saw the Rendlesham forest UFO. His father described a vortex back in the 1930s. So this is something that's been around for a while. And then we get to this detail where a friend of Phil's from Woodbridge was a dowser. And Phil asked him to see if he could pick up any unusual energies in the grove where this house had been seen. Now, Carl said what happened next eventually led to a breakthrough in the investigation.

Phil's friend found three places near the grove where extremely strong energy was emerging, according to his dowsing sticks. At the third and most powerful place, he reckons his sticks, you know, the dowsing, metal dowsing sticks, they just went whoo, and just like shot out of his hands.

And he started to get a heart attack where he started to suffer cardiac problems. Now- Like interfering with the electrical impulses in his heart? He has a pacemaker. Oh, right. And so Phil had to help him to his car and like calm him down and give him a cup of coffee. And eventually he was okay. But he eventually, when he could talk again, he was like, whatever it was came into my dowsing rods. And it went into- Like it touched a circuit or something? Yeah, it went into me. He says, I'm never going there again. Don't ask me to do that ever again. Okay.

So Phil's like, all right, what else can I do? I've got a friend who's a psychic. Let's get her out there. So he brings this woman out there. It sounds actually rather unwise. He brings this psychic woman out there.

And she enters the grove. She follows the path through it. He said she started to act extremely strangely. She was very disturbed. She started sweating, getting really hot, kind of dancing around like she was affected by something. And Phil's like, okay, I'm going to get you out of there. But then he started feeling it as well. He started to sweat and feel all hot and bothered.

And eventually when they got out of the woods, she said to him, there's something in there that we don't understand. I'm not going back in there. But that's all she could say. So I wonder if this is a circumstance of people that are psychically sensitive get overwhelmed with this, but people that are less psychically inclined still get exposure to it, but it doesn't cause a incapacitation. It just causes a vision.

Yeah, that's one of the ideas that people that see the house are sensitive as well, that perhaps it's always there, but you just have to have this sensitivity to it. But he has other cases of psychics that have experienced the same kind of phenomenon. There's one named Jackie Humphrey who had a similar experience in West Stowe.

But she described it as an energy welling up from the earth. Like it was coming up from the earth. She said it drains you. It takes you over. She said when she experienced it, all time had ceased. It felt like time had stopped. And she was paralyzed for a while and felt sick and dizzy for hours afterwards. This, though, sounds like telluric currents.

Yeah, well, you're onto something there because one dowser that came up in this research was Guy Underwood. And you'll recall we've covered Guy's work on the show before. This is the pattern of the past on the screen, one of his classics from years back. But his contextualization

was that dowsers are not detecting earth energy as much as distortions in this kind of earth energy. That's right. It's like the idea is that these telluric currents, if they cross into another current, it creates these vortices essentially, which generate this overflowing of the energy up into the location where it is. And following this line of thinking, Phil Sage got in contact with Carl and said, look, there's this book you've got to read. It's on energy lines. It's called...

The Sun and the Serpent. Oh, yes. It's by Hamish Miller and Paul Broadhurst, who were dowsers trying to figure out where this energy was coming from, and they tried to follow it. They claim that they discovered what they called the Mary line. Well, they actually found two lines. There's the Mary line and the Michael line. That's right. And as you'll expect-

I won't go into all the details, but these lines run through many of the sacred sites in the south of England or the south of the United Kingdom. Yeah, I mean, only recently I put up a similar image of where these ancient sites built by ancient cultures, they all align along these energy pathways. Yeah, it goes through places like Glastonbury and Farnsworth.

famous churches and I won't zoom in on the image but you can barely read it but a lot of famous places Stonehenge of course well we're going to be heading to Glastonbury in the plus extension that ties in very nicely with this but you will notice in this line here see how these two lines they kind of

They deviate out a little bit. They're like serpents going across the landscape. And occasionally they cross over each other, right? And these crossing points they found, well, look at this crossing point. Bury St. Edmunds, that's where Ruffham is. Right. It goes, and this line, one of these squirrelly lines, goes straight through the field, the grove, where this house is. Yeah. Look, this phenomena, like I'm convinced this phenomena has to be powered by something.

So where is it drawing its energy from? And this is just as good a possibility as anything else. Look where else it goes. Woolpit. Woolpit. So the green children of Woolpit. The green children of Woolpit. Yep. Classic story. So is there something to this? Yes. He wasn't sure because he's a bit skeptical. Like, Karl Grove is a bit skeptical of these new-aged houses. Oh, come back a little bit. What's this ring there? Because that's, what's that? Oh, Wanderbury ring. No, it's not. There are other locations, though. Dunstable? What? Dunstable. Dunstable, Aaron. Dunstable.

Crazy. I can't believe it goes through Dunstable. We all know what's at Dunstable. I don't, but that's fine. The real insiders know what I'm talking about. That's good.

So he reckons it's the Michael line that goes through the Grove. And he said, it happens that one of my associates, Chris Jensen-Roma, posted on his website an account of the strange experience he had as a teenager at the exact location near the Abbey ruins where this line crosses. Because he says it goes through the local Masonic Lodge as well. Of course it does. So his friend, he was with a school friend in between classes. This is when he was a teenager.

And he sees a group of children and they're all wearing the middle school uniform from his school. And he said the sighting was near the cathedral. But he's looking at these kids and there's something off about it. There's something uncanny about these young children. He can't quite understand what it is until he sees himself in the group of children.

as a young boy. Oh, see, those particular time slips, they're weird. Like, that's strange because this goes beyond it being simply that, oh, you just have this fleeting kind of vision of the future or the past. It's him when he's like 10 or something and he's currently 16 or 17 and...

As soon as he recognizes himself, that this feeling like what the psychics are describing comes over him where he feels nauseous and dizzy. We've all seen Back to the Future 2. We know what happens. He's going to throw up. And eventually they have to send him home. He has a severe headache. Much later, he thought, I must have had a hallucination. You know, this is crazy. But now it seems like he really did see his younger self. It was like a classic time slip.

And eventually, yeah, he follows this line through Woolpit. So the breakthrough in this whole case came when Vincent Reddish entered the scene. So Vincent Reddish was an astronomer for Scotland, a royal astronomer, 40-year career in the science. He retired in 1980 to his home in Perthshire where he entered the tourism business or something.

And he had a property where he had a bunch of old stone cottages and outbuildings and on the small plot of land. And his plan was to turn it into like a B&B or something. And in the winter of 1989, it was exceptionally wet on this property. And his courtyard became flooded because the drain was clogged. And he realized, I got to find this pipe. I got to figure out why this drain is clogged.

But I don't have plans for the property. So how the hell am I going to find this pipe? So he contacts a friend of his, his neighbor, actually, Clive Thompson. And he says to Clive, look, can you come tomorrow and help me dig a trench? We'll dig it across the entire property and eventually we'll find the pipe. And his friend's like, all right, I'll help you. So his friend arrives the next day, but his friend doesn't have a shovel. His friend has two dowsing rods.

And this guy is like, what are you doing with those? He'd heard of dowsing, but he'd never seen it done before. So Radish is like, all right, give it your best shot. And he watches as his neighbor just walks through the field and the rods eventually turn. And he's like, let's dig here. They dig a few feet down and there's the pipe. He finds it straight away. And he's like, he's kind of amazed by this. He's never seen it before. And so Radish,

He starts to research it. He's got all this free time. He starts to do these systematic experiments. He eventually wrote a book and I found it on Amazon today. It's like $800 and it's 46 pages. It's called Deforce, a remarkable phenomenon. So obviously I didn't buy that, but it's out there.

uh kyle grove has a copy and he said he bought it years ago at some garage sale and forgot about it he's now selling it for 800 on amazon yeah that's his copy and he said reddish made a breakthrough because he was doing all these experiments on this drain and he found like the power line above it was affecting it and he had these rigs where he set up pvc tubing and it would spin if it was like

out of alignment with the power lines by a few meters. Oh, how unusual. I won't go through all the details because we're running long for time. But basically what he discovered was a kind of interference pattern of geomagnetic energy. And this interference pattern...

He could map it out. He found the edges of it and the effects it would have on various objects. He says it wouldn't do anything to aluminium for some reason, but if you had anything else, it would be severely affected by this interference field, water especially. And he said he had basically discovered this principle that

that would explain these multiple parallel lines that were detected by dowsers. These complicated patterns, these interference patterns he was detecting were due to a deep fault line and

This would create many straight edges, he said, from the geological strata underneath, which would create these distortions. So when he says distortions, is it of some unknown energy or is it something more like, is there quartz in the ground? Is it creating piezoelectric effects? Like what's the... He says it's torsion fields. Right, okay. Well, he doesn't say that at first. He eventually came across the research from the Soviet Union. Right. Which is... But they don't officially exist, do they? Well, I mean, they do, but...

It's a controversial topic. I feel like it's something that it's almost like a blind spot for Western scientists, whereas it was pursued by the Soviets. And then after the fall of the Soviet Union, it was further developed by Soviet scientists. I'm not so sorry. Russian scientists as well. I don't know how much the West has looked into torsion waves, but I'm sure there's some understanding of it. But basically, Reddish, he published this small book.

the dowsers hated him because they're under the understanding that it's something to do with their psychic abilities that enhances their dowsing capabilities. It's kind of like remote viewing. But you know, for whatever reason, that's never made sense to me, right? You're holding two rods outside of you. Like there must be, it's not magnetic obviously, but it's like, it's a force. Like it feels like it's a force of some kind as opposed to your, your brain's not, your mind isn't pushing the rods. You're right to a degree, but

there are dowsers that are more skilled than others. Sure. And there are some that can gain more information from the rods and actually have some kind of mental communication with whatever energy is doing it according to them. But where this gets super interesting is he publishes this small booklet

And Grove said when he looked up Reddish, he discovered an article by John Gribben, who was a science writer. And Gribben revealed that Reddish was approached by the Ministry of Defense after he published this. And he was told by the MOD that certain Russian research had found a link between dowsing and torsion fields. Now,

There's also evidence, he says, that the German research into these fields was taking place near the end of World War II. Now, according to this science writer, Gribben, he got all this information from Reddish directly. The Ministry of Defense wanted to use torsion waves for submarine communications. Yes. So there's this really interesting defense side to this, which lends credence to the idea that this is a real effect. This is something tangible, measurable, tangible.

Torsion waves, according to Grove, have pretty fantastic properties. He says they can travel faster than light. He says they travel both backwards and forwards in time. Now, obviously, he's drawing upon some pretty esoteric sources, Russian sources, but he then links this into the idea of quantum theory and zero point energy theory.

And he says that Reddish developed his own torsion field generators and was able to test a bunch of materials using like detecting this earth energy. So it was a really field that could have developed in a certain way. He published a second short book called The Field of Rotating Masses, which was basically, as we understand, a lot of his Ministry of Defense research, but not explicitly said so.

So he probably included what he could talk about. He passed away in 2013 and no one's done any work since. So unless there's some kind of... Well, officially, right? Yeah, unless there's some kind of black project in the Ministry of Defense somewhere, that's kind of a dead end until you get to this classic. Nick Cook's The Hunt for Zero Point. See, when Phil Sage started to talk about these energy vortices and these time slips and this connection to...

these torsion fields. Immediately I was thinking of Nick Cook. Yeah. Well, it was the same thing for Karl Grove. He started to think about this parallel between what was going on in Ruffin and German wonder weapons.

And there was a device that the Germans developed that apparently utilized torsion fields. You know the one. Yes, the Nazi bell. It's the Glock. The Glock, the bell. With the same hieroglyphics around its base as allegedly that was on the Rendlesham craft. Yeah, look, there's a lot of...

There's a lot of stories out there. A lot of the best stuff. In fact, most of what we know about the Bell comes from a Polish military historian who was referenced in great detail by Nick Cook in the Hunt for Zero Point book, which if you haven't read, by the way, absolute banger. Get this. It is amazing. But this guy, Igor Witkowski...

He published this book. It was only in Polish for years. And it wasn't until Nick Cook came along and got some translations going that all this information came to light in the English speaking world. The basic story is this. In the closing years of the war, the SS... Oh, I just totally lost my place. The SS were working on this secret project and...

The SS got control of all the Nazi weapons, right? And it was run by this guy named Hans Kammler. And you might remember when we covered Nick Cook's work, we were referencing the Skoda factory. Yes. So, you know, Skoda, the car brand. There was a factory in...

What was then Czechoslovakia, which was really just a front. The Skoda factory was a front for these top secret projects. And among the research programs that were run by Kamla were Project Tor, was one code name, which means gate.

And this was eventually split into two separate programs. One was called Project Lartentrager, which means light carrier. The other project was called Project Kronos. Now, when you're using a project name, it doesn't mean that the name is what it is, but maybe sometimes it does mean that. Project Kronos implies time travel, right? Yeah.

One of the sub-projects was physics related. The other was medical or biological. And without going into all the details, and you've done some great segments on this over the years, where supposedly the personnel that were working on these projects- Liquefied. Yeah, some of them were killed. And from the information that Witkowski claims that he managed to gather-

Before they died, many of them reported the same effects. Those who survived reported the same effects that these psychics are describing in this field, that people are describing in these fields in Ruffham where this house appears. The nausea, the dizziness, the feeling of wrongness. And yeah, central to the project was this bell bell.

I won't go into all the details, but basically the idea was that it would use liquid mercury to be spun at a certain velocity and then counter-spun, which would result in the generation of toric fields, which would create an anti-gravitational effect and in some circumstances, a time travel effect. Yeah, so Witkowski is firmly in the camp of, no, they were using it for anti-gravity and they wanted to develop flying vehicles that could deliver paper.

payloads, chemical weapons, nukes, whatever. The key part of it was this flytrap device, which seems to lend credence, according to some people. On Tuesday, the next show, I need to find Bill from Project Avalon. Because I know that he's very contentious and some of the stuff that they talk about is quite wild. However, in saying that, he did a great short film called

of where he traveled to this actual location. And not only did they find it, because people go, oh no, it's a water tower. Like there used to be a water tower sitting atop it. But then they found these strange channels that seemed to have electrical cable running through them. Yeah, I'll link to this Daily Mail article, which goes into some of it. I think they're referencing the documentary you're talking about. There's some images here where they show the structures that are left behind and some of the underground tunnels.

It's a really fascinating story, especially when you tie in the people involved and the black projects using SCOTA as a front. Nick Cook's book, again, is the best way to, I think, get across this. That image at the very top there, though, the article of like this classic saucer-shaped UFO sitting atop this conch.

of a concrete structure if you're not looking at it. But I recall from what Bill described is that no, no, no, each of these poles had some type of restraint on it and the actual dieglock, like the bell-shaped structure, was placed in the middle and it was chained. So when it took off, it was anti-gravity. It wouldn't just fly off into space because they didn't know how to control it properly yet. Apart from anti-gravity, just quickly on the topic of the time travel.

Grove says in the winter of 2002, just after Nick Cook's book came out, Hunt for Zero Point, a friend of Stephen's revealed that his father, an engineer, and this is Henry Stephens who wrote this.

a book, like he's one of the best war historians on these Nazi weapons, apparently. What, wonder weapons? Like wonder weapons? Yeah, he wrote a book called Hitler's Suppressed and Still Secret Weapons Science and Technology. Oh, interesting. But yeah, a friend of Stephen's revealed that his father was an engineer who worked with a number of German project paperclip scientists at NASA. There was a facility in Alabama that he worked with. Now, one of these was Otto Cerny, who

who was Mr. Rowe's boss and around 1960 to 1962 invited the Rowe family to dinner at his house. Now, this Greg Rowe was the friend. So Greg had been 12 or 13 years old when he got invited to this dinner party. So he was just a kid. But he remembers the conversation and he was friends with this scientist's son as well.

But Cerny said that he had worked on weird experiments on the nature of time. And when he was pressed by Greg's father, he drew a Stonehenge-like structure, which is probably this on the screen here. It's probably what was connected to the German bell program. The hoop allegedly supported some kind of TV screen, though, because he said inside it was a hoop. And Cerny said that it was possible to go back and witness things.

Mr. Rowe asked why it was not possible to go forward, and then they got into a complicated discussion about propulsion and whatever. But apparently, Stevens, this military researcher, he checked into Cerny's paperclip file, and he found that all the names from this anecdote checked out. All Cerny's family names were correct. He was employed by NASA. His son was in the same class. All of these details matched up. So it's just a funny little...

anecdote that's out there that, but then like, you gotta be a bit skeptical. This guy has a dinner party and he's revealing all this classified project stuff. I don't know about that because that's kind of what happens. People go to dinner parties. They feel like they're in a comfortable situation. They have a few drinks. You know, they don't think that this stuff is going to get out. And like, that's all how a lot of these little things get, especially in politics and in government, that's how this stuff gets out.

Okay, so final thoughts. We've got this strange activity going on in this area of Ruffum. It's like a window area. We've got ghostly, weird sightings, disappearing houses, weird vortexes of energy. Is this just some kind of geophysical thing?

anomaly in the area. Is it a result of what these douses are describing with these strange ley lines running across the country? There's interference points where this energy just gets out of control. Well, I think it's very much natural. And the reason why I say that is because you have ancient people building these, you know, megaliths on these sites. Right. So that's an idea. Did ancient people understand this and build

sites that could utilize this energy. One of the ideas is that the octagon in particular can store and utilize this energy. And in fact, in some of the churches and sites along that line, there's buildings that retain this octagon foundation. But that's a whole other thing. So the big problem with this being just a geophysical force are some of the details of what people are experiencing. So number one,

You never see part of the house. You always see the whole thing emerge. Even in these time slip stories, it's like the guy who went into the shop to buy the envelopes. It's not like he saw half a shop overlapping on the new shop. It's like the whole shop. Even like the disappearing house, the gates are there and the entire boundary of the house is there.

That doesn't make sense if it's just a geophysical force because those boundaries are...

constructs. They're not some geophysical thing. Well, this is what I was about to say. Unless this, and it's ancient people, right? So ancient people, they weren't building it to build power plants to fuel their crystal driven UFOs, right? They were building it because what do they do in these sites? They go and they meditate and they- Do they? That's what people have suggested, that they go and they perform ritual and they perform drumming and these things that are in the mind, but

but they're doing it on these sites of power. That might be true. I don't think we know what ancient people did. Well, people are speculating at the very least. Yeah, I don't think we know for sure what they were doing. My point is, is that could it be a combination of people interacting with this phenomenon? You're saying it's a human construct, but it's like the phenomenon is powered in conjunction with what's going on in their mind.

Yeah, you make a great point because there is obviously some kind of mental connection to this. Otherwise, why would you see a fully formed house appear or a fully formed shop or, you know, why would it be sectioned off like that? Why wouldn't you see these little essences of it, like half a house or half of this? Well, people do though.

But this is the thing. People do it. Not in these examples. None of these cases. It's all kind of like, why would you see a perfectly sectioned off house with the garden and the gate and everything beyond that? No answers. It doesn't make any sense. So there's something more than just...

a geophysical effect from the land i think there's this it's something more complicated that we don't understand could there be um like the amount of energy produced is proportionate to what is seen so maybe it looked like even the smallest unit of energy that is required to manifest a house creates a field large enough that you've got like a what 100 meter radius and that's why you see the entirety of the house or the entirety of the shop

I'm just merely speculating. But maybe think about the amount of energy required. But if it was a hundred meter radius, for example, you wouldn't see just one shop. You would see the other shop and the other shop and the rest of the street. Yeah, no, you're right. It's just this one shop. Yes, it's very specific. It's like there's something more than just this energy that the Nazis figured out or torsion fields. There's something else going on. So from here, he also talks about the other weird stuff, which I won't go into now.

Big cat sightings in the area. Which I may go into. Raining fish in the area. So he starts to talk about torsion fields being responsible for that. All this other super weird stuff, like weird electrical charges. One super weird thing was this...

And Torjen Field, okay, so he goes into, just quickly, Jenny Randalls wrote that book Supernatural, is it Penines? Yeah, Penines. And there was a story where someone saw a pterodactyl in the 1970s. I'm going into that. Are you? I'm going into that in the positive extent. The actual case? Well, not the actual case, but going into it, there's a lot of pterodactyl sightings around there. And funnily enough, guess what's also associated with it?

Storm activity. Yeah. So there's this people that saw this pterodactyl. One guy dove down and it swooped on him and he saw all its detail and it was laboring in the air, like not flying like a bird. The same guy that saw the pterodactyl claims that in the fields near there, one night he saw a trident-like object floating.

shooting out of the ground. Yes. It was just from nowhere. The energy manifesting as light. And I wish I had it in my notes. I had it on my iPad, so it's not on my screen here. I can't show you. But I found the patent because Grove linked to this. There's a patent in these Russian torsion field generator research papers. And one of the patents shows the recommended shape

Well, it's either the field that's generated from the machines or it's the design of the machine itself, but it's a giant trident. That's what came out from the Russian research is this trident shape and this guy's seeing this trident in the field. Is there a connection there? So tons of stuff still to explore with this topic. If we have time, I have this super weird story that appeared in the appendix.

Oh, is that what you called an appendix banger? When you said that today, I thought it was such a crazy story that you'd burst your appendix. No, occasionally you'll be in the appendix of a book and for whatever reason, the author just puts a banger in there. Right. And this is one of those cases where right at the back, there's... Don't tell us, put it in plus. Yeah, there's this guy he talks to named Jimmy T who... Always a reliable source. Claims he has Native American ancestry. Yeah.

And he's a Vietnam vet. And when he thought his life was going off the rails, a voice in his head told him to go and meditate in a cave in the wilderness. And he said, why would I do this? And the voice said, well, you'll be able to experience incredible things if you survive. And he says to this voice, well, what are my odds of survival? And the voice was like, 50-50.

So he's like, all right, I'll do it. So he goes out into the wilderness as this voice commands him to meditate in this cave. And we'll find out after the break what happens and how it relates to torsion fields, disappearing houses, and Nazi wonder weapons. That's all coming up on PLOS. Head to mysteriousuniverse.org forward slash PLOS.

All the details are there. And of course, coming up in our plus extension from Aaron. We're going to be talking about the storm wizards. We're actually going to follow on a little bit from what you've been describing because I didn't know what you were going to be talking about. But funnily enough, it really does come down to what powers this phenomenon. Is it storm activity? Is it solar activity? Is something that we don't necessarily understand? Like we recognize storms, obviously, like we all experience them, but we don't understand the paranormal energies that they create that force

fueled this kind of stuff. And it's not just ghosts. It's not just ghosts in a spooky house late one night when it's raining. It's the flying Dutchman flaming. And funnily enough, actually, after that flaming house, flaming ships, hunting people down. And of course, the storm wizards, these people that seemingly have the ability to manifest storms for the purposes of also manifesting paranormal activity.

Good stuff coming up. Coming up. I think we're going to have some overlap. Again, mysteriousuniverse.org forward slash plus. Sign up today. Help support your favorite show.

You get access to the big extensions we do on these shows every single Friday. And of course, on Tuesdays, PLUS members get entirely exclusive shows as a concurrently running season exclusive to PLUS. All on our website, mysteriousuniverse.org forward slash PLUS. All the video is there and the audio going back 17 years. If you sign up for the Emmy Max tier, you get access to the massive PLUS.

back catalog as well. I love some of these comments on YouTube where people are like, oh, I just found you guys. Have you done more shows? It's like, if only you knew. I feel really bad because someone was like, have you ever had a paranormal experience yourself? And I was like, oh, God. Yeah, it's doing this for so long. That's paranormal in itself. He's banging his head on the table. Yeah, there's comments like, I went through all their videos. It's like, well,

barely scratched the surface, Sunshine. It's like another nearly two decades worth of material for you to go through. MysteriousUniverse.org forward slash plus all the good stuff's there. If you're on plus, stick around after the break. There's a ton of amazing stuff coming up. If you're not, thanks for listening and we'll catch you next week.

Welcome back to your.