32.21 - MU Podcast - The Psychopomp's Cluster
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Welcome to Mysterious Universe, Season 32, Episode 21. Coming up on this show, we've got Escaping the Hell of Thieves, Tulpa Tanks, and the modern-day Psychopomps. I'm your host, Benjamin Grundy, flying solo again on this episode. Aaron couldn't join us. He tried. He really tried. He was in the office yesterday. I thought we were all set for a show.

But again, if you heard last week, he's been having some dizzy spells and he just kind of plonked down on the floor in front of me in my office. He couldn't even stand up and maintain a conversation. So I said, look, you know, it's Thanksgiving weekend. I'm sure people will understand if you take another day. So yeah, he went home. He looked, he didn't look great. He did a show with me on Tuesday and he was fine during the show. But again, after we'd finished recording, he, again, he felt dizzy.

So, yeah, on his doctor's advice, he's going to take some more time. I'm confident he'll be back next week, though. He's definitely getting better. He just needs a bit of rest. And yeah, the doctor actually told him to take some serious time off. He's like, I can't. I've got to come back and do some shows. But I'm happy to fill in. I enjoy doing these solo shows. I've got a great one coming up for you.

I'm going to be looking at some modern day psychopomps. And it occurred to me while I was reading some old Robert Monroe stuff earlier in the week that

that really what Monroe was doing with his course, of course, Robert Monroe, famous for his out-of-body experiences and writing many books about them. And eventually he was a CIA contractor as well. His techniques were brought into a kind of covert program, but that's a whole other story, not for this show. But he developed this gateway program and you may know HemiSync, which is listening to this binaural audio to put you in an altered state of consciousness. And

But they also ran this program called the Lifeline program. And you could go in for training and essentially what they were training you to become was a psychopomp. And a psychopomp is traditionally viewed as a spirit or an individual.

That will guide someone who's passed away through their journey in the afterlife. So you could perhaps even think of the Grim Reaper, for example, as an archetype of a psychopomp. The Grim Reaper comes to retrieve the dead and guide them to their destination. Or, you know, the boatman from Greek mythology carrying you across the River Styx.

It's that same idea. There's the guide in the afterlife. And that's exactly what Robert Monroe's program, this Lifeline program, was training people to become psychopomps. So what they would do is go into these altered states of consciousness. And remember, Robert Monroe spoke about these focus levels.

Going up to focus level 30 and above, whereas focus, I think it was focus 12 or something, was our general everyday consciousness where you and I think and behave today.

But there's also other levels beyond that. Dreams would be another example, but also states that even go further beyond that. So you would see there's focus levels which are involved with the afterlife and there's various divisions of that as well. He spoke about this Focus 27, which we covered on a show a couple of times. We did one recently, maybe just 12 months ago.

where Focus 27, he called it the park. And it was kind of like a mental construction in another dimension where people that had passed on, souls that had passed on would go. And it was kind of like a healing center. It's where these assistant spirits

You know, people that became helpers would gently coax people into understanding what had happened to them. And this is the whole reason why this lifeline program existed is because there was just so many people that Monroe was coming across that were dead.

but had no idea they were dead. They just thought they were still living and they were confused about why everyone was ignoring them. We've covered a ton of these types of stories over the years where there seems to be very specific circumstances where this can happen, where it's a violent death, an unexpected death, some kind of severe trauma. The person will be in such a state of shock, they have no idea they've passed on. Now, one of the people that was in this Lifeline program

was the author Bruce Moen. And he wrote a number of books. He passed away in 2017, but he wrote a number of books in the, I think, 90s and early 2000s. And obviously not as well known as Robert Monroe, but he had very similar experiences. Lots of out-of-body travels. And he actually acted as one of these psychopomps where he would go and

try and help these people that had passed away and were in this confused state. I grabbed one of his books today. It's one of his early ones called Voyages into the Unknown. There's actually four of these, and they get progressively more wild as you go into them. And I've got some stories where he goes into dimensions that are beyond the planet, going into some sort of

alien existences in alternate dimensions. That's coming up towards the end of the show. But this is a really fascinating story because he goes right back with how this all began. And it all started with these childhood dreams he was having. I'll put him on the screen here. Here he is again, no longer with us. But yeah, he had these childhood dreams and he said they would recur once or twice a week when he was five or six years old back in 1953. He was living in Alaska and

And it was always the same opening scene. He would be sitting in a sandpit or something as a kid playing with his blocks. And all of a sudden, everything would go dark and he would be somewhere else. He'd be standing in some yard he didn't recognize. He would be

behind some house he didn't recognize. And there'd be a next door, a house next door with stairs going up to a second level. And in this dream, which again, recurred all the time, he would climb up these stairs, this wooden staircase, and he would go into the landing of this porch and he would go into the back door of this house. And he said he would go into a room on the second floor and there would be a woman in a bed.

Now, remember, this is a dream of a five-year-old, a six-year-old. So he described when he had these dreams, he didn't understand them. He didn't know what they were about. But he very clearly remembered this dream where he would go into this woman's room and he would be excited to see her. She would be excited to see him. And she would kind of open the bed covers for him and he would jump in.

And he said, I never understood what we did in bed. He said, I only felt the frolicking atmosphere, pleasure, and a lot of bouncing and moving. He said, I enjoyed whatever it was until I heard footsteps, heavy footsteps coming up the same stairs I'd climbed just a little while before. Heavy footsteps that struck terror in me and something in my chest leapt up to my throat.

He said, I felt frightened beyond belief. I rolled off the woman onto the side of the bed closest to the window. And eventually he just like dived onto the floor as the door opens. And there's this huge man standing in the doorway. He remembers from the dream. He's got like a wide brimmed hat and he's big because he's filling the whole frame. And he just remembers the fear being so intense and the knowing that if this man in the door got hold of him,

he would die. And remember, he's five years old. He has no idea why this man would want to get him. He has no idea what the context of this situation is. It's so bizarre. But he remembers in this dream, he would always get up in fear. And the last thing he would remember is diving headfirst through the window. And his dream would always stop when his head would hit the glass and the glass would smash.

And then he would just come back. He would, well, he would wake up, but it was like he would just return to his normal five-year-old consciousness. He'd be back in the sandpit. He'd be scared, like his heart would be going crazy, but he would just go back to, you know, playing in the sand. And he just remembers thinking, oh, that's just what dreams are like. You just have these weird dreams. You know, it wasn't until later he realized, oh,

Why did I have those dreams as a child? Where did they come from? He said his parents didn't let him watch television. There was nothing on television that would even depict anything like that in the 1950s. So where did that come from? Now, obviously, over the years, he did more reading on spiritual things.

and came to the conclusion, the only conclusion he says that made sense. And that was that he was remembering the final moments of his previous life, which makes sense. Obviously he's cheating with this woman. The husband comes home and catches him and he must have dove through the window to his death. And this is, you know, if you've been following the show for a while, you'll know from these stories that that kind of death is,

is usually the case in these children that remember past lives. It's something extreme, something with trauma, something sudden. So he had these three questions as he was growing up, like most of us do. He said, he always had this question of where did I come from before I was born? What's the purpose of life? What am I doing? What am I supposed to be doing when I'm living here as a human being? And where do I go when I die?

Now, he really did have a burning curiosity and he tried to answer these questions as best he could. He read everything he could on spiritual traditions, religion. You know, he read the Bible and then moved into New Age readings and even dabbled in the occult and all sorts of weird paranormal stuff. So he did the whole gamut. And eventually he said he came across the books of Carlos Castaneda. And you remember Castaneda reading

had this so-called teacher, if he really did exist, named Don Juan. And one of the lessons Don Juan would give Castaneda was lucid dreaming and the instruction to always look for your hands. If you could train yourself to look at your hands, the idea was if you're in some kind of dream, you'll instinctively follow the instruction and look at your hands, and then that'll make you

It'll make you conscious inside your dream. And so he does this nonstop in his 20s. He, like a mantra, he keeps saying to himself, I'm going to look at my hands tonight. I'm going to see my hands in my dream. And for over a month, every morning he would wake up disappointed because nothing worked. He could never become lucid in his dreams until one night it finally happened. He can see his dreams, his hands, sorry, his conscious. And he looks around and

And he realizes he's standing on, well, he's standing in a second floor hallway. He understands he's in a house somewhere. It's just some hallway of an old house. And he can see a few doors along the hallway to his left. There's a blank wall on his right. And he thinks to himself, oh, I finally become conscious in this dream. And it's the most boring dream imaginable. I'm in a hallway. And so he says, there must be something more interesting to do than stand here in this hallway.

So he realizes, well, he has this silly idea that he's going to do handsprings because he's never been able to do handsprings in real life. You know how you kind of tumble over, like do a front flip over your hand. So he's like, all right, I'm going to do handsprings. And he actually does them. He does these handsprings down the hallway and he keeps doing this. And he says, for some reason, he abruptly stops.

And he doesn't know why, but he turns to look at this blank wall that's next to him in this hallway. And as he does this, this window starts to form next to him. And he said the lower half of the window opened and he's looking out at this man standing outside. Now, he says this guy was huge and he knew this because he was on the second floor of this house and

And his eye-to-eye contact with this giant man standing outside. He said his feet were obscured with this grayish white robe he was wearing. It hung loosely from his shoulders two stories down to the ground. And he said, as I stared at his face, I was trying to place his race. I was trying to place his nationality. He said it was extremely peculiar. This guy had dark skin. So he had this ruddy complexion. And...

He at first thought, okay, maybe it's a black guy, but his features were Northern European. So he had this dark skinned, almost Nordic look about him. He said there was something very odd and squinty about his eyes though, not slanted as an Asians might be, but still something about them that caught my attention. He said, as I continued to look at him, I decided he must be a Norwegian Oriental. He's like, it sounds pretty silly now, but-

That's what he looked like. And as soon as I read that, I just thought back to the dozens and dozens of contact experiences we've heard over the years of these ruddy skinned individuals. John Keel spoke about them, for example, darker skin, long thin fingers. But many eyewitnesses describe this oriental look.

Many contact eyewitnesses, UFO eyewitnesses describe this, this oriental look to the individual, but they don't say that they're East Asian. They don't say they're Japanese or Chinese or anything. They just say they looked weirdly oriental. Now, what that means, I don't know, but it is a strange coincidence. He asks him, who are you? And the being doesn't answer,

and just starts floating towards him. The expression on his face never changed. He said it was one of those non-threatening smiles and this being just kept it the whole time. And I did like an AI version of like Asian Gandalf. That's the best I could come up with with Oriental Norwegian. And this being starts floating towards him and he starts to get alarmed. He's like, who are you? A bit more forceful this time.

Nothing in this guy's face acknowledges the question. It's just getting closer and closer and closer. He said, by the time he got really close, terror had taken over my being and I was screaming at him, who are you? Now, just when he was thinking there's no escape from this guy, the window closes, the portal disappears, the hallway seals up and all the fear is gone. And he's back in this ordinary hallway thinking, okay,

Oh, what do I do now? And he keeps doing handsprings down the hallway. So the next handspring he does, he claims he launched off from it and now he's in this weird, strange blackness. And he's now this sense of movement. He's moving down feet first. He says it was kind of a coarse grained field of blackness. It felt three dimensional, but he's flying through it at this tremendous speed.

Now, he has the thought, all right, where should I land? And the image of this beautiful sunlit field enters into his mind and he lands on that construction. He lands on this, you know, like Microsoft wallpaper, Windows wallpaper terrain, beautiful rolling hills, this nice dirt path winding up, this tree scattered about. It's really beautiful. And he says, some distance away,

there's five or six people walking down the path to him. And it's a very spiritual situation because they're all in the robes and they're like, you know, they've got this aura about them that they're heavenly beings, angels or his guides or something like that. And I'm reading this is going, yeah, I know where this is going. He's going to have some experience and they're going to say, you have a mission or something like that. So they start walking down the path towards him. But it's so funny because they,

What he ends up doing is he says, even though they were posing no threat, for some reason he thinks the most reasonable thing to do is fight them to the death. So he sprints down this path and just has this Kung Fu Matrix style battle with these guys in Rome. So he's trying to knock them out.

And he's attacking them with all the fury he can muster. And they're just basically trying to restrain him. They don't want to fight him. They're just trying to push him down and restrain him. And they do. They kind of hold him down on the ground, place their hands on him. The next thing he knows, he's waking up in bed. He's in Minnesota and he's in a house by a lake. He's building this house. And he realizes, oh,

I was just in a conscious dream. I had my first lucid dream. That was wild. But then it starts to go through his mind. Who was that tall guy, that weird oriental Norwegian that was floating towards me? That felt so real. Who was that? Who were those people I attacked? And then he realizes, oh, they were probably my guides and they were going to tell me some kind of deep and meaningful secret. And I just attacked them. He realizes I just tried to murder them.

And he just feels so shameful. He feels so awful about it that he's like, I've got to do better than that. That was just the worst scenario. How on earth could I try and kill them? So the next morning, he starts to have these kind of after effects from this lucid dream experience.

And he describes waking up in his bed like early morning, three in the morning or something. And the bedroom's filled with this. Well, he thinks it's the sunrise. It's full of this strange golden light. And he can feel this electrical pulsing going through his body. He says it's really uncomfortable. It feels like he's being electrocuted.

and he says that it gets worse and worse and worse, and then this buzzing sound starts to appear in his ears, and it's getting, you know, it's like thrumming and getting worse and worse and worse, and he actually thinks he's going to die. He thinks that something is electrocuting him, and this is going to take his life, but in the end, he realizes he can't move, but he manages to twitch a muscle under his, excuse me, under his knee, and this breaks him out of this body,

you know, state of paralysis and the room goes back to normal and he actually wakes up for real. And this becomes a problem because it keeps occurring, you know, several times a week. He has these situations where he has these false awakenings and he feels like he's going to die. He feels like he's going to get electrocuted to death and he has to struggle against it and eventually wake himself up.

So he decides that, okay, I've got to do some research on this. I've got to find out what's happening to me. So he checks himself into the library and he wants to look up a bunch of books on hypnosis because he feels like maybe some of the hypnosis research will reveal this strange state of mind he's in. So he gets a bunch of books to look up and he gets the tags for the shelves of which books to get.

And he goes to the first shelf with the right label to find the book he's looking for. And he thinks he's found it. He pulls it off the shelf. And without thinking, he just opens the book and starts reading. And the page that he just randomly flicks to is

starts, well, it says this, it says, a tall, rather dark skinned woman in a long straight dress or robe stood almost beside me. My first impression was that she was Negro with small and even features, dark straight hair and evenly cut bangs across the forehead. It then says in retrospect, I realized from the description she could have been Middle Eastern or Egyptian, but not Oriental as I would have noticed the eye structure.

He says something about those lines seemed oddly familiar and I could feel that something was starting to rush towards my awareness. And it suddenly hits him. He says, wait a minute. This description is pretty close to what I saw with this large man approaching this window in my first lucid experience.

How could this be? It's like the same kind of description, dark skin, but Middle Eastern or Egyptian eyes, the eyes look a little bit off. So he's like, what is this book? So he opens up the cover and he realizes he's grabbed the wrong book off the shelf. It's actually Journeys Out of the Body by Robert Monroe. And it's this shelf elf moment where he obviously takes it home. He reads it, he absorbs it.

And this is the first time he reads about out-of-body experiences. And he's like, what is going on? What are these techniques? This is wild. And so he starts practicing. He follows Robert Monroe's techniques and the methods to induce these altered states of consciousness. And he has his first OBE. He knows it's not a dream because he floats through his staircase at home, which could be a dream.

But he finds himself in this other room and he's floating near the ceiling and he's looking down in this room and there's two women. One of them seems familiar to him, but there's two young women sitting in this room and they've each got these containers with some kind of cream in them. And they're putting the cream on their faces and then laughing hysterically at each other. And then he kind of snaps out of the experience and he's like, oh my God, I was out of body. That was bizarre.

So at the time he was living with a flatmate. Her name was Becky. And he was so excited by what had happened. He goes, tell her. He's like, Becky, I just had a nap and I had an OBE, an out of body experience. It was wild. I saw these two girls, you know, they were putting cream on their faces and laughing. It was so strange. It felt so real. And when he told her that she has this look on her face, like, oh my God. And she explains to him that while he was having a nap,

She was over at her friend's house across the street and her friend's mother had started selling, you know, like Amway creams or something like facial creams. And her and a friend had got the samples and they were just laughing at how bad the products were, like putting them on their faces and laughing at it. And she's like, that actually happened. You witnessed what we were doing 10 minutes ago.

So it wasn't a lucid dream. It was confirmed that he was actually floating about seeing what was going on. So these out-of-body experiences and these lucid dreams continued. Often in the lucid dreams, it wasn't always out-of-body. Often he'd have these lucid dreams and he'd be able to shape them to his desire.

And he loved sports cars. So he would create these dreams where he'd be driving along this beautiful country road in, you know, a sports car with the top down. And he did this quite often that one summer morning, for real, he was driving his 1960 Austin Healey in Minneapolis. And it was a beautiful day. The sunlight was hitting the trees and he was on one of the main boulevards. And he looks up at these trees and the light coming through the leaves and

And he starts to wonder, you know, if I was dreaming, I'd be able to float up there and look down on the car from that perspective. And then he starts to wonder, hang on a second, am I dreaming? Can I do that? And he starts to lose this distinction between reality and the dream state. He's been doing so many of these lucid dreams that he's starting to have trouble telling the difference.

And so it suddenly kind of occurs to him, no, this isn't a dream. Because he's like, he's looking up at these trees, driving down this busy street, like, you know, 35 miles an hour or something. And he has to snap back on his attention on the road and realize, wait, I'm not in a dream. I'm not in a dream. And he was so shook by this. He was so concerned that this was going to become a problem that he stopped everything. It really scared him.

And it must be like a disconcerting situation to be in that you can't tell dreams from reality. Makes sense that he would stop. And so he ends up just putting everything aside. He loses interest in this out-of-body stuff. He thinks, I'm not going to do that again. Like, what a weird phase in my life. I'm kind of done with that. And he just, after several months, he just doesn't think about it again. He's done with it.

Anyway, years later, it's now 1975, and he's got a friend that does some kind of handiwork with metal and I don't know what he does with it. Ron gets a call. Sorry, Bruce gets a call, and it's his friend Ron. And Ron asks for a favor. He says, look, Bruce, there's some scrap metal I need to salvage. Can you give me a hand? I need you to help me haul it to my trailer. And so he has this guy a favor. So he's like, surely I'll help out.

So he goes out to this scrapyard, this salvage site, and his friend Ron is, you know, cutting up the pieces of metal off of these wrecked cars. And he's doing these loads back to the trailer. And he does this back and forth a bunch of times. And, you know, it's a nice sunny winter's day. And eventually he just sits down to take a rest because it's pretty exhausting work. And he said, I was comfortable lying there in the warm springtime sun. I closed my eyes and relaxed into the warm feeling of the sun on my face and

He said, after a short time with my eyes closed, my attention was drawn to a vivid, full-color 3D scene that seemed to be floating in the empty space in front of me. He said it looked so real, like a lucid dream, and yet I could still hear Ron cutting the metal off to the side. He said as I began to look more closely at the scene, the sound of Ron's welding torch faded away and

And I was alone, he said, silently and curiously looking at every detail of the scene before me. So yeah, this is like some kind of 3D construct appearing before him and it turns into a figure. He says, I'm now realizing I'm looking at a figure, humanoid in shape, hovering in the air about 10 feet in front of me. He said, at first it looks like a male, but as I look closer, I realize it's neither.

It's this weird asexual being floating in front of him. The figure was seen in profile. It's dressed in a sort of close-fitting body stocking in one color. He said it could be beige, but the lighting makes it difficult. The body stocking gives the figure an overall smoothness, taking away any distinctive features that would identify its gender. So it's something like a weirdo in a bodysuit, somewhat kind of spandex suit.

He said the figure is standing between a very bright yellow white light and the place I'm looking from. And he says the background is this deep, vivid blue, like the deepest blue you could ever imagine, deeper than any blue he's seen with his real human eyes. And he says the air is giving off this hazy glow. Now, he says, as I feel myself becoming more curious about the figure's face, he says, I realize I'm moving closer and closer to it.

And something about the figure catches his attention. It seems to have some kind of pipe coming out of its back. And he says, as he got closer, he could see that this being was absorbed in wonder. It was just looking around like astonished at what it was observing, you know, taking in the scene of wherever they were in Minnesota. And he ends up

paying attention, but his attention is drawn to this thing coming out of its back. And he says, it seems like a tube. It seems like some kind of almost like he refers to as like a large fiber optic tube coming out of this being's back. And he can see it extending off into the distance further than his eye can see. And he finds himself being curious about where it goes. And as he has this thought, he's following it.

zooming along watching this filament and it seems to have a light in it. It seems to be lit up. And as he's zooming down the tube, it gets faster and faster and faster and he's getting further and further and further away from where he was. And over the time he notices that it's not just one tube, it's like multiple strands packed together. And they eventually start to

fly off in different directions and he follows the one with this light in it. And he's following these filaments, he's following this tube, and eventually he realizes he's like light years away from where this being was. And he's in some kind of cosmic void, like flying through galaxies, but he's still following this tube.

And he looks out in front of him and he sees this large disc-shaped object. With Lululemon, the real gift happens when they're living in it. When you give the fan-favorite everywhere belt bag, the real gift is. And when the ultra-soothing rest-fuel slides are the gift, you're really giving them this holiday. Lululemon makes it easy to give little luxuries that go beyond. Open the moment. Shop now at lululemon.com.

It's like a, I tried to do an image of it, but I don't know if I really captured it, but it's this like dark disc and all of these fiber optic filaments are making connections with this giant disc. And at each place it makes a connection, there's like a large light. It's the cables like going into this light ball that's on the edge of this disc. And he says, as he gets closer,

He realizes that at each point of connection where it's lit up, there's a face there. There's like a personality. It's depicting a human being with feelings or emotion. And he gets the feeling that each connection, each filament's going to each connection on this disc. Each one of them is a sentient being. And he follows this one that he's been following, the one that's lit up,

And he gets closer to the light and he sees a face. And I kid you not, it's this cartoon character. It's this cartoon character. I remember it from, what was that old show with the...

the mongoose and no, not the mongoose, the, the moose and the squirrel. I can't remember the name of it, but this is one of the, this is one of the villains in it. Snidely Whiplash. Does anyone remember Snidely Whiplash? He's like this old school villain with a curly mustache and a top hat. The face looks like that, like an animated face like that. And he looks next to this face, like on this disc and there's a big red button. And he,

There's nothing that can stop him from pressing this button. He's got to press this button. So he pushes this big red button on this disc and he says he watches as this greenish yellow light emerges from the disc into the now empty cable, into this filament. And it forms a pulse of light about four inches long and starts moving in the opposite direction back up this disc.

tube, back up this fiber optic tube, presumably to where this being was. Now, as he's watching it pulse away, he's like, where is this going? This is so bizarre. Of course, he starts to follow it. And he's racing through stars and space, flying along this cable. Eventually, it merges with the other ones and forms this big tube. And in the end, it goes all the way back from this weird disk in outer space to

to this humanoid being that's floating over his body back in Minnesota. And he's like, what the hell is going on? Why is there this snidely face? He says, the humanoid figure is coming into view and I watched the information go into its body and

And I back away slightly and I can see through the expression on the face that whatever it was viewing in the world at that instant was viewed through the personality of Snidely Whiplash, that cartoon character back on the disc light years away. He said not just that this humanoid has experienced it through the personality of Snidely, but that Snidely was there to experience it. What is going on? What is this? Is he just in a lucid dream?

Is this too outlandish to have any objectivity at all? It's starting to sound like it, right? And this image starts to fade away. The entity starts to fade away. And he comes back to, he's lying on that snow-covered hill. He's friends like, what's wrong with you? Can you help me with this metal thing?

And he said, as I worked the rest of the day, I could see clearly in my mind all the scenes from this vision in great detail. Questions filled my mind. Why did I see it? What were those things? What was this figure? What was this disc? What were those rods? Why was there a cartoon face on the disc? What is going on? He said this vision didn't make any sense for 17 years. It took him 17 years to figure out what it meant.

Now, several years past, he said, I remarried. I started a family. He said I was kept busy by life in general. Gradually, my questions about the meaning of that vision faded. He said it all became past memories. And he just went on living his normal life. There's explanations to what that disc was. And that's coming up for our PLOS members. I'm going to stop the story here. Don't get mad. I'm a man down. I'm a man down.

Just like last week, that's a little bit of the story and we'll fade it out here. Sign up for plusmysteriousuniverse.org forward slash plus to get the full episode and jump on our membership. You get access to our back catalog if you sign up for MU Max as well. There's nearly 20 years worth of shows on there. So go and check it out, mysteriousuniverse.org forward slash plus. Thanks for listening. If you're on free, if you're on YouTube, if you're on plus, let's keep going with the story.

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