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You know, since we were last together here on Need to Know, there's been this whole unfortunate Signal snafu. But you know, it does have one upside because it proves that Ross Coulthard and I are more careful about our own communications than the U.S. national security team. It's not that we don't use Signal. We just assume that somebody's always listening anyway. I mean, what happened in the U.S. is like Ross and me mistakenly including Mick West and Neil deGrasse Tyson in one of our chats. Not a good look.
Oh, and here's some breaking news before we get started. For all of our listeners and viewers who think either Ross or me have to be a hologram because we're never seen in the same place at the same time, we'll be putting an end to that foolishness by appearing together at the Contact in the Desert conference out in Indian Wells, that's in California, on May 30th. We'll be doing a live podcast there on a stage with each other, same time. So there. If you show up, we'll all take a picture together.
All right, now let's pull a Ross in from across the ocean. And Ross, my man, I just want you to know that
I won't put a tariff on need to know if you're Australian listeners, if you agree not to put a counter tariff on it here in the US. What do you say? It's too late, Bryce. It's too late. I tell you what, the whole blooming country here is in rebellion. We're all going, why the hell are we so nice to these yanks? They're pulling the drawbridge up on us. They're shutting down America. Honestly, I cannot overestimate the degree of shock
and anger amongst even conservative acolytes who've been very big fans of the US-Australia alliance for 50, 60 years. They're shocked that this is happening. And yes, I'm on an Elon Musk Starlink here. So I'm assumed that might give me an input that means that I'm not going to be hit with any tariff on need to know. You don't need to slug me for 10%, mate.
Well, you know, as they always say, may you live in interesting times. That's certainly been the case around here. I mean, the news breaks with something big every day. This is a big one, though. I don't know that it has a UFO connection to anything, but maybe it does. Well, I'll tell you what I think it does have. I think it explains, I'm assured Trump is still very engaged on the UAP issue. I haven't heard that from Trump directly, but from
reasonably close to him. My understanding is that they're getting the economic stuff done first. And frankly, if America is still there in six months time, it may very well be he will then turn his attention to the subject of UAPs. It's just that there's so much else on his plate right now, resolving world peace, fixing Ukraine and
completely destroying the international economy is an urgent first priority. Well, you know, the thing is, when I started joking about Signalgate and the use of Signal, I just had one real world question, though. You know, you and I do talk on Signal from time to time, but we both say to each other, you know, just because it's Signal, don't think
That somebody that wants to listen to you can't listen to you. So there's that. And I'm surprised that our own people here didn't think of that. But my question is, if you're sloppy about security, as that seems to indicate, is that possible that somehow, some way that also plays to security?
the unexpected release of something to do with UFOs at some point? Is that even in the realm of possibility? - Well, you know, it's funny. I was just thinking that what if Jeff Goldberg had been copied into a confidential MJ-12 committee meeting? But you know, please do not under any circumstances reveal any of this incredibly important information about our alien reproduction vehicles flying to Jupiter and back. Very, very important that we keep it within the group.
I mean, it is very funny and it's sad, really. But look, I have to be honest, Bryce, a lot of my contacts in defence, intelligence and the US government, including at reasonably high levels in the new administration, communicate with me via Signal. And both Signal and WhatsApp have been used for years by government officials to
and particularly people in the military and intelligence community as a way of keeping communications off the books that aren't FOI-able. And I make a point whenever I do freedom of information requests of asking specifically for signal and WhatsApp messages, because I've got friends that have worked for prime ministers here in Australia, which is our equivalent of head of state, if you like,
And the Prime Minister's office routinely keep all of their most confidential policy conversations and very detailed, sensitive conversations off the books by putting them on WhatsApp and indeed increasingly on Signal. And I do think it's a security risk because one, senior government officials should not under any circumstances be using their normal phones to
Because no matter how good you are, no matter how many times you turn your phone off, turn your phone on, which is the requisite advice to stop Trojans from being installed on your phone.
The Israeli companies like NRO that have developed the Pegasus software and other more intrusive software systems, they've got Trojan software systems now that frankly can be inserted remotely onto a phone without your knowledge, without any input from you. And the moment that thing's on your phone, if you are targeted by a state actor or a serious non-state actor like Israel,
Oh, gosh, whatever that Israeli company is called. The simple fact is you can't do anything about it. And Signal and all encrypted comms can easily be compromised. It is true. I do start every morning by turning my phone off and then turning it back on. And because I have a new iPhone, it actually turns off and on faster than the old one. So it's not as big a pain. But my question would be, OK, that being true, what you just said,
People, okay, I know what they should probably, well, actually, I don't know. It's kind of two parts then. What should the government types be doing to communicate when they want to have a group chat? And secondly, what should we be doing? You know, you said WhatsApp and Signal isn't the best for us. What should we be doing? If there was something that we wanted to tell each other, but we didn't want anybody else to know, what would we do?
There is no foolproof way of evading state-sponsored surveillance. I just assume that conventional digital communications are compromised. I do not use what one would regard as conventional encryption software to communicate with the most sensitive sources that I have.
I use other means which will not be disclosed here. Good, good, very smart. And, you know, I think most people who are in this line of business that you find yourself in are probably spending a good deal of time trying to think about. There's different levels of conversations. I know that from time to time, you know, we'll just have a little chat on our regular phone.
Apple, you know, a message app. But that's when we're talking about what are the kids up to, that kind of thing. Then if you're going to escalate it, you go to Signal and then there's got to be escalations above that. You would just think that it wouldn't actually happen on Signal with all those people. It was just kind of astonishing. I did a story once, probably 20, 25 years ago now, Bryce, about what's now known as the Echelon Communications Surveillance System. Right on.
And it exposed for the first time the fact that there is a thing called Echelon, which is essentially a collaboration between the Five Eyes countries to intercept communications. And normally in the original days, it was via satellite links. We were putting microwave transmitters into receivers, into the receiving points, spillover points from satellites beaming back to Earth.
And that was allowing the US and indeed the Chinese and the Russians to monitor each other's telephone communications.
Now we've got fiber optics and it makes it a bit harder, but it doesn't stop it. And there's still an enormous amount of surveillance. But what I was told by our government was that we had very important SIGINT rules that essentially members of the Five Eyes do not spy on each other and that, you know, there is essentially an enormous priority put on monitoring nuclear activity.
and weapons of mass destruction. And I actually, by one source, was given a look at what the satellite tasking was for a satellite surveillance station in Western Australia for one day.
And most of the names were the names of North Korean generals and their mistresses. And as the person telling me this, he basically said, we spend an awful lot of time listening to the romantic assignations of North Korean generals and Chinese generals. And it's
pretty boring stuff. And they actually tried to reassure me with the fact that there is such a high priority on monitoring for weapons of mass destruction, for nuclear proliferation, that the ability of these systems, it's just overwhelmed. There's so much data that they really don't have the capacity to do the kind of clever individual monitoring that you would think. Back to the signal chat that gone wrong, I guess.
And you mentioned also Five Eyes, which of course is the US and Australia and New Zealand and Great Britain and South Africa? Canada.
Canada, excuse me. I don't know why I did that. They're a 51st state anyway. I mean, I don't know why we pretend anymore. They've obviously been subsumed into the greater North America. So my question is, all right, we've had a historic good cooperative element between the intelligence agencies of those five nations. Has that been hurt by what's going on in the United States? And does it have any impact on UFO operations?
intelligence gathering? It hasn't been heard at the military intelligence level. I mean, I talk routinely to people in Australian military intelligence who tell me that the level of collaboration in the Five Eyes on all manner of stuff is extraordinary. I mean, Australia has the biggest base and the most important base in the world outside of the continental United States.
for the United States. It's the Pine Gap Joint Facility. And it used to be the downlink point from all of the DSP satellites that did monitoring of potential ballistic missile launches and, you know, rogue nations like North Korea potentially moving weapons of mass destruction. And that's been a large part of the focus in the last 30 or 40 years.
But obviously, Pine Gap has moved on and it's become much more of a communications intercept. And so a lot of the stuff that's happening in the Middle East, often it's an Australian tech that's involved in doing that monitoring. And we are, we're really proud of the work we do. And quite rightly, it's kept secret because there's a lot of monitoring of terrorism. There's a lot of monitoring of the movement of weapons of mass destruction. And Australia is quite rightly proud of the work that it's doing.
What's a real problem is that at the political level, I don't want to
sound like I'm taking a political position, but I don't think it's been thought through the implications of treating Australia the way it's being treated at the moment with a 10% tariff, which is utterly absurd. We don't have tariffs. We have a trade surplus with you guys. You're bringing more into the United States than you are exporting to us. So,
Sorry, other way around. You're actually exporting more to us than importing from us. And that trade imbalance is the reason why we're supposedly being attacked. But the concern is that it's undermining political confidence in an alliance that has kept the world safe since World War II.
And frankly, I think an alliance that has colluded to some degree in keeping quiet on the UAP issue. Because while Australia's political leadership doesn't know about the UAP issue, no politician that I've spoken to, and I've spoken to an enormous number of them, has ever been briefed into any knowledge of the UAP mystery.
I know for a fact that there are people in the intelligence community in Australia who routinely read the UAP material on JWICs, which is the confidential communication system that the Five Eyes operates.
There is openly UAP data being stored and collected. And whilst the Australian government has an official position that it doesn't keep UAP data and it doesn't store UAP data, that's a load of bollocks. We do, and we've been sensitively providing that information to the United States for many years.
And that's the issue, that essentially there's been a good-natured collaboration as part of the Five Eyes alliance. And I don't really think that military alliance is in any way under threat. We love America. There's a genuine affection. And frankly, we've fought together. We've bled together. It would never diminish. And we've done podcasts together. And we've done podcasts together. We're striking a blow for international relations here, Russ. Very true.
But I have to admit there is quizzical bemusement, I think is the best way of putting it, that people cannot believe that this is happening, that Australia, of all countries, we are probably one of your closest allies. And there is just shock and bewilderment that we are being punished with tariffs for reasons that absolutely flummoxes.
Well, at least I didn't make the mistake of leaving Australia out of the five eyes. I want to apologize to Canada. Love Canada. Grew up in Oregon. Used to vacation all the time in Canada. I've shot three television series in Canada. I almost applied for Canadian citizenship at one point so that I could work there more often. Love Canada. I'm sure all these issues are hopefully going to be sorted out. But on the issue of the UAP thing,
It does seem that if the UAP issue is as big as one would think it is, and clearly if UAP translates into non-human intelligence, then that kind of secret, that kind of issue transcends all
even tariffs. I mean, it just transcends everything. And I just think the bonds are very, very deep between those five countries that are in it and between a lot of other countries that the United States is allied with, certainly in Europe. I think those bonds are very deep. And certainly with Australia, I mean, Americans themselves, the citizens of America, love the
Australians, you know, we get along great. And one of the great things Americans... It's a love fest. But, you know, you talk to Americans who travel a lot and they go, love to run into Australians when we travel. I mean, because Australians are great travelers. You guys, the Americans often will take the one week trip to Europe or something.
But correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Australians, because of the distance involved, tend to stay longer when you go places and go more places. Right. So you you've become the best world travelers out there. So listen, I, you know, not to beat a dead horse, but I think our countries are pretty strong no matter what Trump does. And those are only he would say to you, by the way, Ross, he'd go, well, they're only 10 percent tariffs. A lot of people are getting worse. So.
Whatever. And he's right. You're right. So listen, let's, I guess I want to flag something that I got from Jake Barber yesterday, the Skywatcher project. I did a question and answer with him yesterday. It's the first time he's been allowed to actually talk in detail about Skywatcher. And there's been a lot of paranoid fringe conspiracy theories starting to emerge on the web recently.
know people suggesting he's just a CIA front and that it's some kind of soft disclosure. So, I got the opportunity to put a lot of those questions to him and I think he batted them very, very well.
What's really interesting, though, Bryce, is the fact that he's predicting with some confidence that they are going to be resolving by the end of this year, by the end of December 2025, we will know whether the neuromechanical, i.e. the dog whistle form of summoning of UAPs or the psionic
now known as the neuromeditative interaction form of summoning UAPs, whether those two systems work. And one of the things he revealed to me yesterday was that the electro-mechanical form, the dog whistle, I'm just going to call it the dog whistle, the dog whistle works 100% of the time.
And they are going to unveil on April the 7th next week, they are going to unveil the video that they have shot of nine classes of UAP.
And in some cases, these are up to, sorry, within half a mile distance. And if you're thinking about the optics that they've got, that promises to be quite interesting. One of the objects that he's saying that they have captured video of is a jellyfish. Business taxes. We're stressing about all the time and all the money you spent on your taxes. This is my bill.
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Investing is risky. Robinhood Financial LLC. Member SIPC is a registered broker dealer. Other fees may apply. And an egg and a tic-tac. But interesting to hear the jellyfish as a subgenus, if you like, of UAP is about to be confirmed. And what's really interesting about this, Bryce, is the politics behind
He's made it abundantly clear to me in the interview that this Skywatcher operation is genuinely independent. It's giving information to the defense and intelligence community because it doesn't want them kicking the door in and demanding to know what's going on. So they're being transparent with the Pentagon and the intelligence community. They're conscious of the fact that they might inadvertently record
perhaps a craft that the United States might be operating. And so they're making it clear to the US that they are sharing information with them so that there's no need for them to come kicking the door in. And the other thing that they've revealed to me, Jake went on the record yesterday and admitted that Arrow, the Pentagon's UAP investigation office, has visited the Skywatcher range.
The other thing I wanted to put on the record, because I think a lot of people have missed this, is right at the end of my Q&A, I asked Jake about an operation that I know he was involved in in December where Skywatcher was deployed to the Picatinny Arsenal in New Jersey, where there were a lot of these so-called drones hovering over what is a very, very sensitive area.
US military facility. And Jake confirmed on the record, contrary to what the FAA has asserted allegedly through the White House statement that these are FAA-authorized drones for research, he stated categorically that it was their view and their advice that these objects in some cases were anomalous.
Lots to unpack there. By the way, I heard that interview. I really enjoyed it. I think Jake Barber is certainly a compelling witness to history here. For people that sort of, you know, I don't assume everybody knows everything all the time. So Jake Barber is the helicopter pilot who you interviewed at the first of the year, who actually testified that he had helped move downed craft, particularly an egg. He had moved that to another location and
And what you're talking about, by the way, the fact that this dog whistle allows them to contact things. You mentioned the jellyfish, but also the egg and the tic-tac. The egg and the tic-tac, to the best of my knowledge, we're talking about craft. But this jellyfish is something quite different. It doesn't sound like a craft. It sounds like a life form, unless I'm missing something. It does. And it's funny, in the encompassing.
In the conversation he has with me, he describes the top of the jellyfish as almost having like a kind of metallic sheen to it. So he's holding the possibility out, I guess, that it is perhaps some kind of constructed craft. But yeah, I mean, it looks organic. And it's interesting because let's talk about what our friends George Knapp and Jeremy Corville revealed with that video from the Middle East.
There was a video that they released last year where they showed what looked like a jellyfish drifting over a sensitive U.S. military facility that was captured on the forward operating base camera systems. I mean, it was a mind-boggling piece of video. And I remember actually showing it to some friends yesterday.
The average person still has flying saucers in their mind. When we're talking about UAP, they're thinking of looking at a flying saucer. So, to show the video of this jellyfish thing flying around in the air, very unusual. I don't know if you've heard this, or maybe you can debunk it. Someone showed me something that they said had been
run through AI to increase its resolution. And it almost looked like there was a pilot or an entity
at the bottom of the thing sort of. Yeah, I saw the same thing. And look, I don't know, Bryce. I mean, this is actually becoming one of the issues, you know, one of the issues that I talked about with Jake and Skywatch's Matt Pine is the fact that how on earth do you verify videos these days? I mean, I'm getting sent literally 100, 200, 300 videos a week
by people who are saying that these supposed drones are still operating right across the United States. I'm getting an enormous number of images and video from Florida right now. There seems to be a lot of activity over military bases and particularly near a very sensitive covert CIA facility in Florida that I won't reveal the name of. And it's really interesting because
these people are sending me these videos and more often than not, they've never checked them against flight tracker software, which means that we can't rule out prosaic explanations. And I just beg people rather than shooting with your mobile phone and just holding your phone up to the air, get an app like, um, phenom P H E N O M dot AI or, uh, Enigma labs who've also got an app, um,
and take a video of it on that app. And what it'll automatically do is calculate the azimuth, the latitude, longitude. It'll record audio, it'll record video. And it allows people to triangulate that object and to even measure its speed if it's moving across the sky at different times in a particular part of the world.
And this is the sort of technology we need to be able to definitively resolve using video, whether the video is genuine or authentic or not. Because I just get sent so much. And the jellyfish is a really good example. There's so much bunkum stuff out there. That's how we solve this problem for ourselves. We've been saying for years, I think since our very first episode, we were saying, look,
we've waited a long time for the government to sort of tell us any government, not just mine, yours, every government out there, to sort of come clean and tell us. And it seems like we've waited a long time. We're going to have to do this ourselves. This Phenom app you're talking about is a great example of where this technology that's improved for all of us can be used to help give us some answers. The other thing I would say, even if you see something with an iPhone, because I see a lot of stuff too, and
not as much as you and probably not, uh, definitely not as much as you. You'd have to be, I don't know who you'd have to be to get as many as of these videos as you're getting Ross. That's an astonishing number. It's insane. It's insane, Bryce. I mean, I, I, I just cannot, and I apologize to everybody. I've still got emails from January. I thought I'd cleared all my emails from January and I'm, I've yet to go through February and March. Um,
And I discovered another 1,100 emails yesterday in a separate box where I'd put them because I didn't know what to do with them. It is just insane. We've got to get you an assistant or something because that's pretty crazy. The one thing I was going to say, though, about most people aren't going to have the Phenom app on their phone. They should. And I'm endorsing that as a concept. A lot of people have their iPhone and then they see something and they start videoing it with their phone. And the thing I notice is that the audio track
at least 50% of the time is numerous recitations of the F word in, in different constellations. Wow. F this, oh, F this, F that. And I think that is an appropriate response sometimes to what you're seeing. Cause you, you're seeing something that doesn't make sense. However, I would still say to people, if you have the presence of mind,
describe the time it is, describe what the weather is. Is it windy? What direction are you looking?
Are you with other people? Are there other witnesses? Anything that you can say factual that marries that audio track to the visual track is really helpful to researchers who need to look into this. So that's my little soapbox about that. But the thing I wanted to pick up on, because you were talking about Jake Barber, but you also sort of tied it into the drone thing. And we have done our share of drone talk on this thing.
And yet, it never seems to go away because it keeps happening, and the government's explanation of FAA-approved drones never makes sense. So, what is our drone update at this point in April of 2025?
Okay, I'm calling it. I think the drones are anomalous. I think they may potentially be NHI. I've had people from the intelligence community who have asserted flatly to me that they are Chinese or Russian drones. Bullshit. I don't believe it. And I'm calling that out. Nobody, and I've really milked all my sources, nobody I can find has any evidence at all to prove that these are foreign adversary drones.
I don't even think they're drones. Whatever they are, I've spoken now to multiple people who've told me they've seen these objects morphing.
I can't verify the authenticity of it, but I tweeted recently about one that was hovering over a house that somebody videoed. And it was literally, it looked like two aeroplane cockpits a little bit apart from each other. It looked like whatever the hologram was that was being generated, it hadn't quite worked. And it was hovering over a house and drifting very slowly in a particular direction. And whatever that is, it's not a conventional aircraft.
And it's interesting because I asked somebody about this at a relatively high level in the defense community just this week. And they said to me, Ross, if you were the U.S. Air Force and the White House, would you want to admit that there are objects operating with total impunity over the continental United States that
that we can't track, we can't detect, we don't know where they're coming from or where they're going to, we don't know who's responsible for them, and more importantly, we cannot bring them down.
Would you want to admit that? And the answer is no. And it's interesting because more and more, I think it's a bunch of A-type males in the US military who just can't bring themselves to admit that despite the expenditure of trillions of dollars,
The security and defence and integrity of the national airspace of the United States cannot be guaranteed. That's the issue behind the drones. Whatever they are, I suspect, yes, there have been some drones going up and that's a matter of public record. Skywatcher, for example, reported that some of the objects that they saw were indeed sort of commercial drones that somebody was putting up.
But they've also, as Jake told me yesterday, made it very clear that the objects that they were seeing included
highly anomalous objects. And this is something that John and Jerry Tedesco have picked up with their Nightcrawler research laboratory. They've gone out and they've actually looked at these objects through their hyperspectral cameras and their other optical and sensor devices. And what they are recording is anomalous.
So the big issue to me is not that these objects are anomalous, it's why is the United States government, notably the Trump White House, putting out a statement that is egregiously false and misleading and completely unsustainable in light of what Jake Barber has said and in light of what New Jersey police and other military continue to say to me, that these objects are anomalous, they're still there, they're still hovering, and whatever they are, they are not
not normal terrestrial vehicles.
I think people want to know a couple of things. They want to know if they're anomalous, why are they in New Jersey, for example? And then the other question that I hear from people is when people think of anomalous and unidentified anomalous phenomena, they think of the stories they've heard in the coverage of something at 80,000 feet that goes to sea level in less than a second. That seems pretty extreme. And then the reports of the drones don't seem to have that kind of effect.
what am I saying, aerodynamic capability evidenced, they seemed, while they may be anomalous, they seem to be part of this milieu of other drones. So what's the case? You know what it is though, Bryce? It's if you don't look, you don't know. And I'm picking up on the great work done by our friend Christopher Sharp from the Liberation Times, which is a British sourced periodical.
And Chris has done some great work on the sightings over Rath-Lakenheath, the Royal Air Force Base Lakenheath, where the United States, it's widely known, not publicly acknowledged, but it's widely known that the United States has nuclear weapons. And there have been objects hovering over Rath-Lakenheath today.
For pretty much the last few months. What does the British government have to say? Because we're saying the U.S. government's not being forthright. Is the British government being forthright? No, they've got their heads up their ass about it as well. I mean, essentially, there's a collusion, I think, amongst the Five Eyes countries to try and bury this subject matter. And I don't think it's a grand conspiracy. I actually don't think that the Brits and the Americans are trying to hide something
US secret covert craft or anything like that. I think they're just embarrassed. They're embarrassed that there's something up there that they don't know, they can't defend against, they can't track, they can't follow, and they have no way of bringing down. So better just to try and muzzle it by denying it and telling the media they're FAA-authorized research drones or
And, you know, since we last spoke, I mean, there's been that 60 Minutes story where you had Senator Roger Wecker, the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee. He also said that the military and sections of the national security complex that he spoke to are mystified by these drones. They have no idea what they are.
And that was followed by an interview with General Glenn Van Hurk and General Mike Kelly, two recently departed US Air Force generals, both of whom admitted that essentially they don't know what these objects are. They can't defend against them. And this is, you know, Van Hurk was the general in charge of NORTHCOM, the Northern Defence Command of the United States.
Don't you remember when America got into an enormous tiz in 2023, in February 2023, when four objects, unknown objects, drifted across the continental United States? One of them was a Chinese balloon. The other three, unknown.
I'm certain one of them, the Alaska one, was anomalous, some kind of craft of some kind that did not conform to normal terrestrial specifications. And the amazing thing was there was a huge hullabaloo in Congress and the media. Everybody got all worked up about it.
Compare that to today and I find it utterly bewildering because you've still got, I've heard from people in the New Jersey police as recently as yesterday telling me that these objects are still being seen. I've got people contacting me from Florida telling me they're seeing these objects almost nightly now in Florida. And just to respond to what you said before that they're not showing anomalous behaviour, they are showing one of the observables. They're showing stealth characteristics of
And they're also showing another type of observable, which is they're morphing.
I've spoken to people who've told me that these objects literally change shape in front of them. And it's very hard using a mobile phone filming something that's a kilometre away in the sky to show that, but you can see it really clearly with the human eyeball. I've had people describe to me that one minute it's an orb, next minute it's apparently a helicopter or a plane, and then the next minute it's an orb.
And it's weird because what it seems to be doing is playing with our perception. And again, I come back to good old slide nine, the fact that the, um, uh, deputy secretary of the defense department, Thomas Modley was advised by, I think the UAP task force, um, that there was indeed a capacity of the phenomenon, whatever it is to manipulate human perception. And, um,
I think that might be what we're seeing over the continental United States. Is this perhaps some kind of perhaps non-human intelligence trying to twig public consciousness of its existence? Is it manifesting itself? And to what end? You know, when I hear you talk about it, and first of all, I agree with you on what you just said, but the question is,
I just want to see how this gets to an end game, the whole drone thing. Because again, we talked about those in 2023. That was a huge thing and then it wasn't, and then it was gone. And now you have to make it a callback and go, "Yeah, what about that thing in '23?"
And I remember there have been cases going back many, many decades. The Hudson Valley sightings had people going out every night with their lawn chairs and looking up and seeing things. And these were craft, as I recall, that they were seeing. And it was a big hullabaloo. Didn't get the proper coverage. And now we look back at it. It's kind of a quaint story. Nobody really remembers it. And I keep thinking right now, we have problems.
technology, it's 2025, there is this drone story going on. And as you pointed out, Ross, there's ample reason with witnesses and technology to say there's something anomalous involved with these drones.
How do we bring that to some kind of conclusion or at least use it to springboard into the larger discussion? Because I feel like the public itself and certainly the media, let's take the public out of it for a moment. Most of the media has sort of said, "Oh, well, that was answered, wasn't it? I heard it was FAA drones." So they're moving on. What does it take
to find some resolution with the information we have now, Ross. What are you thinking? I mean, what do we have to do to get this to pay off? It's what you and I have talked about, Bryce, that essentially what this represents is a chronic failure of legacy media, but it also represents a chronic failure by the oversight agencies, by the FAA, and indeed by the Congress. I mean, I'm really angry at the moment. I think we're being far too nice to the Congress
I think we should be kicking the door in and asking why the hell, you know, I should not be promoting civil disturbance. That was a figurative description there, not an active one. I think we should be demanding for the political representatives to explain why President Trump has not enforced an executive order for the declassification of UAP files, as he promised he would do.
I mean, he promised in an interview that he did that he would declassify, he would like to see, I think it was, I've forgotten where he said it, but wherever he said it, he said he would like to see the UAP photos and videos declassified. That has not happened. And moreover, he's declassified or moved to declassify the JFK files, the MLK files, the RFK files, the Epstein files, whatever
Why is there this stick on the UAPs? Has the president been got at? He might have been got. Why is there the stick? By the way, it's got to be in Australia. I don't even know exactly what that means, but I agree with you. Um, I,
But we're talking about Congress. There are a couple of things going on in Congress right now. Our friend David Grush has just taken a job in Congress. Is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing? He's working for, I believe it's Eric Burleson, who is the Republican from Missouri, and he's going to be helping on UAP-related issues.
What do you know beyond that? That's all that's been reported. So what do we think? Rep Eric Burleson is very impressive. He's a member of the so-called UAP caucus. He's spoken up before on the UAP issue and made it very clear he thinks that the government is holding back on what it really knows about this subject matter. And I think his determination to hire David Grush, I suspect against the wishes of a lot of people in Congress, is reflective of just how committed he is to getting to the truth.
And I know from talking to David, I've talked to David in the last week or so and wished him the best of luck as he starts on April Fool's Day. I hope that he is able to shake the cage from within. And I know he's hoping that he will be able to. One of the things about Congress is, and I've realized this only very recently, I
I genuinely thought that by this stage, Congress would be awake to the UAP issue. You know, there have been lobby groups like the Paradigm Research Institute. There's been the UAP Disclosure Fund. There's been any number of organizations that have been going in and making representations, along with great people like Lua Lozondo, Christopher Mellon.
And as you know, Jake Barber's given evidence. You would think that Congress was fully informed, but it's not. It's not. And I commend to people to watch Jesse Michaels' interview that he did with Kirk McConnell, who's an immediate senior staffer
former senior staffer on the Senate Intelligence Committee, which is the committee that's heard a lot of this evidence. And the overwhelming message you get from Kirk is that, sadly, there is a kind of an inertia, an ennui inside Congress. They're so distracted by other things.
It's almost like the issue is not getting traction. And I don't know what it is, but I think we've all been very naive. And even though we're in this bubble of the UAP subject and we think that everybody must be interested in it, I'm quite struck by how many people in political life aren't aware of the issues that we're aware of and how there really does need to be a much more aggressive lobbying campaign inside the Congress to wake people up.
And frankly, I've given up expecting that legacy media, lamestream media is going to do anything to cover this issue. They've allowed themselves to be led by the nose for so long. I think they've bought into the stigma and the taboo. New York Times, Washington Post, you should be ashamed of yourselves. And history will remember you for the...
the little quizlings that you are in collaborating with the national security state to suppress this issue. I mean, I think it's absolutely outrageous in light of the degree of evidence that's been presented that the legacy media has committed such an egregious failure of oversight. And similarly with the Congress, though, I mean, frankly, at the moment, the oversight committees are wimpy. They're
they're not doing their job. They're not asking the hard questions. We need, we need people asking questions. Burleson who, uh, Grush is going to work for is on the house oversight committee. So maybe you can give them a kick in the ass. That would be good. And Burleson is also on the subcommittee, I believe for the Doge subcommittee. So, you know, uh, Grush is, is in the midst of it. Listen, I just think, you know, I,
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Because of you, I got to meet him, and I do think he's a terrific asset. I
I think he is a powerfully compelling witness. And I think it's fantastic that he is going to be spending more of his days in Congress because, again, I think you have hit something that's really important, which is, yes, there are members of Congress and senators who are very well informed about this. And then there's the rest of them, which is the vast majority of them who aren't aware of it at all. Either they don't have the...
the security clearance to be totally aware of it, or they're not interested because they don't want to talk about it. So I think what's going on, to be honest with you, Bryce, I know this for a fact is that there are whispers from the defense and national security establishment in the ears of key senators in particular to steer away from this issue. I mean, the word has gone out, look, this wouldn't really be good for us right now. There are sort of sensitive things we don't want publicly discussed publicly.
And I think what's happening is the military and intelligence community are hoping that they can just play a waiting game, that they can wait for us all to go away and that eventually the Congress will move on.
I don't think that's going to happen. And I think Skywatcher might actually be the catalyst that forces this into the public arena. Because, you know, what happens, what happens if, as Jake Barber still tells me he's trying to do, they are able to invite a non-human craft to land? Well, what if that happens? And what if that's recorded on national television?
Well, I mean, if that happens, that's a complete disclosure game changer. I will say, unless that happens, though, listening to Barber on your show, there's still a crisis of communications on the Barber front. If he's going to take his message out to the people, he's got to be clear about who he is, what his experience was. It's got to be on a
personable level where he explains this. Now, if he gets something to land, I mean, boy, Ross, that's it. I mean, I don't know how likely that is. Wouldn't you want to be the US and be out on the front foot with that? I mean, that's the thing is, I think we're looking here now at the distinct probability that by the end of 2025, Skywatcher are saying in their framework protocol document that
where they've set out the six levels of proof right through to level six, which is disclosure. They believe that they, by the end of this year, will be able to reach a definitive conclusion about the efficacy of neuromeditative interaction, i.e. psionics, and or electromechanical signaling, which of course is the dog whistle. And
It's pretty clear to me from talking to Baba that they've had 100% success. Okay, if you have 100% success with the dog whistle and something pops up when you use it, why? I mean, does anybody have a working theory on why there are
I guess interdimensionals. It's probably not extraterrestrial if it's something that pops up when you call it, but it could be anything, I guess. But why? I can't imagine a non-human intelligence that's saying, let's just hang around out here in our dimension, and when the humans give us a call, let's pop in and show them what we got. That doesn't make sense.
Well, the really interesting thing is it's quite clear to me that the reason why Skywatcher is using the dog whistle is because of what Jake and his colleagues learned on what they euphemistically refer to as the range.
which is the secret government facility where there was a collaboration between government, intelligence, and a private aerospace company to attract and bring down non-human craft. So that's what's been going on behind the scenes. There's another question about, though, if Barber and company are going out to the range, which is as described by you, why does the government let them go out there and do that? Because they know full well that
being seen to be interfering in what is a private equity effort to corroborate what the government has known for the last 60 or 70 years, I believe, would be an enormous flag. It would be like, oh my God, you know, we are then caught out. I mean, Jake's made it very clear that if there is any attempt to try to shut down their operation, he will go public. Yeah.
And, you know, basically I think that's quite significant. You know, he's making a promise that this will not be suppressed from public knowledge. I mean, listen, that's game. It's not game over, but it's game begun. The minute you do that. Forgive me for interrupting, but I just want to emphasize to our audience, the significance of that is we're now on a clock because we're
If Skywatcher follows the protocols that it set out very clearly in the document that Matthew Pines and Jake talked to me about yesterday, they think that probably by the end of the year, we will know. And that could mean, Bryce, it could mean disclosure of the biggest secret in human history with scientific peer review proof built into that.
At which point the United States government has a clear decision to make about whether it tells the truth to the public. If they were smart, I mean, if I was advising them from a PR level, if that happened, I think the idea would be take credit for it and get out there in front of it or at least simultaneous to it because there's nothing to be gained by
by denying that something that happened happened, you better to take credit. Listen, as our time runs down, I just, there's something big also happened this week, although it was kind of maybe a little disappointing in its execution, but they did have a hearing on at Congress on the JFK files. And I know both you and I are interested in it.
And it sort of had its little Hollywood aspect, which I always enjoy because I love to see all that. And Oliver Stone got to actually swear, you know, raise his hand and swear to tell the whole truth. So help him, God, which I think he's been doing all these years anyway. He doesn't need to be sworn in to do it. And I watched it and I.
it's so frustrating because it's still a lot of posturing by the people who are asking questions. They're not really asking a question half the time. They're making a statement and,
And I did feel a little bad because I admire Oliver Stone. I think what he's done is a vast credit. But he's getting older and he looks tired and a little beat down. But he's still the, you know, he's the happy warrior still, I think. And I was happy to see him testify. And it does seem like...
There's kind of two competing narratives. There's the narrative the media is going through, which is, well, we didn't find a smoking gun. We've had these 80,000 documents for three days, so nothing to see here, which is odd. Then you've got, I think it was the New York Times that was basically inviting other people, you know, their readers to help them go through all these documents because...
And that's just something I wanted to bring up to everybody, which is if you care at all about this story, there may be more than 80,000. I'm just using that number. Maybe you've heard a different number. But there's so many, nobody's about to look at them overnight, even decades.
James Eugenio, D Eugenio, what's his name? James D Eugenio. He said, you know, that he had only had a few days and he went through a hundred of them. I mean, well, you can see the problem here, but what I, all I would say is, as I watched it, I did think,
that the mosaic is taking on a little bit more specificity. I think we've all known that the CIA has lied, and we know the FBI lied, and we know that the Warren Commission lied. I call it the Warren omission, because the Warren omission forgot to mention that Oswald was a CIA asset, forgot to mention that Jack Ruby was a mobster. I mean, these are small little things that maybe should have been in the report.
And I think as these documents come out, well, I don't expect a smoking gun. A smoking gun is the one where you read that, you go, oh my God, here is this one memo that says the CIA did, you're never going to get that. But you are going to get the picture coming together. And I was just wondering, had you seen it yourself? What were your thoughts?
Look, I did a special for News Nation on the JFK documents and I sat up all night trying to read as many of them as possible. And I agree with the eminent JFK assassination commentator, Jefferson Morley, that there is, and as you and I have discussed, a very clear fact trail that shows that not only did the CIA deliberately lie and collude to conceal evidence of its knowledge of Oswald prior to the assassination of
It had a massive file. It had a 191-page file showing detailed surveillance of Oswald, including allegedly when he visited Mexico City.
There's more than that, though, Bryce. I just want to flag to people something that's coming up. My good friend Jesse Michaels has done an exclusive interview with Harold Malmgren before he died. And Harold was, as you know, a JFK staffer. And his daughter, Pippa, is a very good friend of mine. Pippa is an extraordinarily well-informed economist. And her father, Harold, was one of the key junior staffers in the JFK White House.
And Harold, before he died, passed on to me through PIPA the information that he was briefed by Richard Bissell, who was one of, I think, the deputy directors of operations for the CIA in the 1960s.
He was briefed into the legacy program. And the reason why he was briefed into the legacy program was because of an accidental downing of an alien spacecraft during the Kennedy administration, during the testing of a thermonuclear device called Bluegill in the Pacific during, I think, the 1960s.
And the allegation is that JFK was apprised of this accidental downing of an alien spacecraft, that he may in fact have gone to a briefing where he is fully briefed about it. And indeed, some of the documents that have been obtained by an Australian friend of mine, Jeff Cruikshank, who's a former intelligence operative who has taken a close interest in this matter, would suggest very strongly that there might in fact be a UFO link involved.
with the JFK assassination. And that's what Jesse Michaels explores with Harold Mongren in an interview that I'm hoping will come out fairly soon. God bless him. Harold died in February and literally within days of his interview with Jesse, it was an act of raw courage
for him in his declining days to agree to speak to Jesse. And I'm very, very excited to see what he comes up with. And I really do commend to everyone to take a really close interest in what I think Jesse
will be a major interview. Well, you know, the JFK UFO connection makes my heart go pitter patter because I produced 20 hours for NBC of Dark Skies. The entire premise of the series was that JFK was killed because he was going to tell the truth in his second term. I didn't have that kind of evidence when I said that. I just thought it would be a
my co-creator Brent Friedman, I said, well, let's take the two greatest conspiracies of all time, JFK and UFOs, and put them in an atom collider and see what happened. And it's kind of interesting to me to look at evidence over the years that, that, uh,
seems to come to the forefront that says it's possible. Because let's face it, if Roswell was a real event in 1947, then it was pretty soon after the JFK comes into office, just 14 years later. And obviously, there would have been an active group looking into it. I just wanted, because I love Oliver Stone, I just wanted to tell people just a little bit of what he said.
He said, he asked, can we return to a world where we can trust our government to level with us for which this government exists? And to me, that sort of fits in with the whole UFO thing. He could have been talking about UFOs. And he says, let us forgive, but not forget the transgressions. And let us praise the representatives, Democrat and Republican, who believe with the vast majority of the American people that the truth is the greatest treasure a Socratic soul can attain in this lifetime.
And he concluded his testimony, I asked the committee to reopen what the Warren Commission failed miserably to complete. I ask you in good faith, outside of all political considerations, to reinvestigate the assassination of President Kennedy from the scene of the crime to the courtroom, which means the chain of custody on the rifle, the bullets, the fingerprints, the autopsy that defies belief, and that if there were a murder, we'd have given to the poorest man dying in a gutter.
Let us investigate the fingerprints of intelligence all over Lee Harvey Oswald from 1959 to his violent death in 1963. And most importantly, this CIA whose muddy footprints are all over this case. Give them a...
true interrogation. And I just, you know, there is more to know. We don't know everything about the JFK thing. We know enough to know that the Warren commission was not correct. And this latest thing that you were just talking about, Ross gives me goosebumps. Uh, and I look forward to seeing if that story can develop a little further because I mean, wow, that would be shocking times 10.
Do you have a feeling, Bryce, that this UAP mystery and the JFK mystery, that to resolve those is to resolve something dark in the American psyche? It's like there's this wound that has existed since the 1960s, since JFK was killed, which is pretty much around the time that the UFO cover-up started as well. It probably started a bit earlier in the 50s. But the...
It's this kind of wound that runs through American society that I think is at the heart of why people are so cynical about their institutions of government. I'm really shocked when I talk to young Americans. You know, there's such a cynicism and a skepticism about government and whether politicians are really there for noble means.
And I was, I have to be honest with you, aside from Burleson and Luna's questions, I was really underwhelmed by the caliber of the questions that were coming in that JFK hearing. It really struck me that they weren't prepared. They weren't across the detail. And it wasn't the kind of intellect that you saw during the church conference.
commission inquiry, which basically elicited a lot of the crimes of the CIA in the 1970s. So true. And if Congress is going to do its job, we really have to expect more from our political representatives. And that's on both the JFK issue
and the UAPs. It is a tremendous wound. We came out of World War II, the United States, on top of the world, basically. We believed in our government. We thought that it could do good things and that it was doing good things. We believed in it. On a single day, in broad daylight,
In the middle of the day, literally high noon, the president is murdered. And I may have said this on the show before, but I was just a little kid. But I'm sitting there watching TV on Sunday, two days after the Friday murder of the president. And we're watching Lee Harvey Oswald be taken out. And I'm watching with my family because everybody in America was watching at that time. And Jack Ruby comes out and shoots him.
And my father, who was a pretty establishment guy, I mean, he was a history teacher, but, you know, he he wasn't wild and crazy. He wasn't a conspiracy theorist or anything. And I just remember looking up at him in shock and he said, well, they made sure he won't talk.
He didn't. He said they. And, you know, if you think about it, they is a conspiracy. You've got to have a they to get to a conspiracy. And I think a lot of Americans felt particularly when Oswald was silenced, something's very, very not right here. It's gone from tragedy to tragedy.
drama at that point. So I look forward to that being fixed. And I know we're out of time, but I wanted to ask you one quick thing. We've been hearing about these pyramids and this underground city, and you're going back to
Am I right? You're leading another one of your tours? Not this year, but probably next year. Yeah. And look, you're going to ask me what I think of the claims being made by these scientists that they've been able to achieve with synthetic aperture radar, these extraordinary discoveries under the Khafre pyramid. Right.
Look, I'm not going to say it's lies or nonsense, but what I am going to say is I want more evidence because I've spoken to two of Australia's most eminent experts in synthetic aperture radar, one of whom works in the intelligence world, and they scoffed at any suggestion that this kind of imaging could look two kilometers underground.
And one of them actually knew enough about the aquifer underneath the Giza pyramids, the Giza Plateau, to say that there's this huge body of water underneath the Giza Plateau. And that would hinder any kind of scanning system, even if it was able to get down to that depth.
So I think we need more evidence. And I just think it's regrettable that these claims were made by press release before there was rigorous, and I mean rigorous, peer review. And let's face it, the science that they supposedly brought to it is repeatable. If it's true, it's repeatable. So somebody will be able to repeat it. And if that doesn't happen, it
you know, you can't really believe them. And all I can say is at least as opposed to UFOs where it's so large and amorphous, sometimes this one is this location. It's possible to know what the truth is about that. So I, I don't think it's what they're saying. And, but I, but I only bring it up because it really shows you the, the, the media environment we work in, because I must've had a dozen people send me an article about that.
Like, what do you think about this? Oh my God, look what they found. And I said, did you actually read the article or are you just sending me because of the headline? And most people that sent it to me hadn't read it. It's just the headline attracted them. They said, well, Bryce should know about this. And they, they sent it to me. And I think, you know, this is a funny place we, we find ourselves where we, we pass headlines to each other and we don't really expect people to get into it, but I hope that will change. And, um,
I guess that's all I'm gonna say about it. - I mean, to some extent, to be honest, Bryce, the skeptics, the debunkers are all too often right that sometimes we do seize on stories because we want to believe them.
And there's a risk here of confirmation bias. We always have to be skeptical. And it's important that we always sit back and go, you know what? I don't think there's the evidence there yet. And that's why, just to round this back up, that's why I took a lot of interest in what Skywatch has released this week, because they've released this framework document that goes through six levels of proof, six levels of verification.
And I think that's what we've got to do with the UFO subject as much as we've got to do with the JFK subject. I'm heartened by that idea. I'm a little startled that they put a clock on it.
I mean, that's pretty big balls to say we're going to have it by the end of 2025. If that's true, I love it. So until next time, I guess. But, you know, folks, we always appreciate you watching and listening. And we'll be back and do this again soon. Ross, it's always a pleasure, my friend.
Good to talk to you too, my friend. And just to remind people, Bryce and I will be doing a Contact in the Desert live show. We are not a hologram and looking forward to seeing anybody at Contact in the Desert in May, early June. Thank you. All right. See y'all.