You Can't Sit WIth Us! Bringing Diversity to the Country Club
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just living our life, right? We needed clothes to wear to play tennis, clothes to wear to play golf, and we were just thinking about what was missing in the market. That one, that one collection was way more than 50 grand, if you run the numbers. Are you just like a prodigious polo player or could I do this too? Oh, 100% you can. Would you wear the same shoes for every occasion or rock the same outfit seven days a week?

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What's up, rich friends? Welcome back to another episode of Net Worth and Chill with me, your host, Vivian Tu, aka Your Rich BFF and your favorite Wall Street girly.

And as some of the longtime besties know, I grew up in the DMV. Woohoo! Specifically, the M, a.k.a. Maryland. And in the Maryland suburbs, I was exposed to my fair share of Jack Rogers flip-flops, the boat shoes, the Lily Pulitzer, the polo shirts, the classic preppy style that encompasses all things country club.

But let's be real. For a very long time, this look and lifestyle have been associated with a predominantly white, old, rich demographic, and often it's not very inclusive. And if you are watching instead of just listening to the podcast today, if you look around...

It's pretty diverse at this table. Tennis, crew, golf, equestrian, horse riding, and the fashion surrounding these activities have historically catered to that very specific group that said these days with the old money aesthetic blowing up on TikTok, people are interested in preppy style. And the question is, can only certain types of people have this look?

That's why I am so excited to talk to our guests today, the co-founders of Recreational Habits who are redefining the modern prep look for people of color and everybody else. Jackie Skye Muller and Marlon Muller, welcome to Net Worth and Chill. Thank you for having us. Thank you so much for having us. What an introduction. Yeah, I'm so excited to talk to you guys. But before we begin, can we

Can we get a little background? Like, how did prep culture, prep style even originate? Sure. I would say, I mean, it really depends on who you ask, but prep style came out of prep schools and then it went into Ivy League style. And at that time, you know, in the early 1920s, 1930s,

It was predominantly within Princeton, I would say. I think everyone has a different opinion about it. But at Princeton, the men, because it was an all-men school at the time, they were taking the clothes that they got from Brooks Brothers or maybe something that they got when they were living at home, and they were remixing it with a lot of the sportswear that they had to wear for campus sports. So it was this mix of, like, high-low tailoring. But the way they did it, it almost felt very –

I would say like counterculture. Like they were rebelling against like the tailored look that their parents wanted them to wear. And so they would roll up their sleeves and they would wear like the big

turtlenecks under jackets. And it was just a really unique look at that time. And from there, it kind of spread throughout the country. And there's just so many different things that happened in history, like the GI Bill and all of these different moments that kind of came together at the right time in order to make prep style just, you know, really expand throughout the rest of the country. Yeah. That is so crazy, by the way. I actually did not know that history. And I

I'm so curious. Why do you think that look is so effortlessly cool? It's so hard for me to say because I think that the way that it has evolved even from that time and the way that we look at it now and how musicians like Miles Davis kind of took it up. And I think it's just one of the most rebellious styles because it came from a place of

You know, it's almost like a very privileged place to come from, right? Because, like, you had to have money in order to go to these schools, in order to have these clothes. But then you wore them in and you, you know, you cut the bottoms off and you wore socks with loafers. And you really rebelled against what it was supposed to be in order to create your own unique identity, your own style in that space. Yeah. Yeah.

So Jackie, you mentioned that it started at Princeton, really through the sports that were being played on campus.

Were those the sports that are now associated with prep culture, like tennis, golf, equestrian, horseback riding, things like that? Because I don't think those are played. You're not horseback riding at Princeton, are you? You can play polo. Can you play polo at Princeton? Right. Yeah, you can play polo at Princeton. I guess I wouldn't know. I think also, I think it was just this, it's less about the specific sport. And I think prep style has, of course, maintained its...

I guess, longevity within country club sports. But I think at that time it was, you know, football and lacrosse and soccer. It was just across the board, sports across the board and how that influenced the way that students were dressing on campus. Mm-hmm.

Did you guys participate in those sports growing up? So I played golf growing up. I'm Korean, so I was actually born in Korea. Born in golf is what you meant to say. And, you know, if you didn't play golf, you didn't really spend time with certain parts of your family. So I really learned how to play golf from an early age. I hated it. I grew up in Dallas, Texas. It's hot. It's super hot. The game is long. You know, when you're...

eight, nine years old, that's the last thing you want to do with your dad. But, you know, I grew up and I had the privilege of learning how to play when I was young. And I think now it served me so well because, you know, you can play in a business setting. And, you know, I think Marlon can speak to that even further, how important it is to have just exposure and access to certain sports when you're young, because later on you don't necessarily have the time to learn it. And it can really benefit you, especially in the workplace. Yeah, I didn't.

Play golf or tennis as a kid. We had access to basketball courts and football fields. Quick, remind me, Marlon, Jackie, where did you guys grow up? Jersey. Oh, right, Jersey and Dallas. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So for me, I didn't start playing golf until I was in my 20s, and it was for work. And that was my first exposure to it. Yeah. And I remember feeling...

an outsider when I got to the golf course for the first time. Um, well, you know, it's something that I'd seen on TV, you know, I'd seen it on TV and it was never really a real thing to me, but around my colleagues, it became very real and I wanted to be taken serious, especially in a work setting. So, um, I tried to fit in and, you know, looked at

different J.Crew, you know, magazines, Ralph Lauren articles of what I was supposed to look like when I went to go play golf. And so...

I really looked the part when I went out there for the first time. Yeah. But... You had like all the pieces. I did. I went all in. Did you have the little hat? I didn't have the hat, but I had the socks. Okay. I had the socks. So it was great. I didn't play well, but it was at that moment, you know, where I realized that it was so foreign to me. It wasn't something that I really had any sort of connection to. And so I think...

One of the things that inspired us with the brand was making it more accessible. Yeah. And, you know, people just, a lot of kids in urban communities don't have access. Yeah. So making it something that they can connect to, something that they see themselves in, and that exposure at a young age, I think, is what really opens the door. And so now you see that a lot of kids are playing. Yeah. You know, they're finding...

avenues to get to golf courses. And so it's a, it's a very cool thing, but for me, it was not something that was, you know, from, from my, from my youth coming up. Yeah. Having this conversation reminds me of a movie. I can't remember the name that I recently watched on a plane. And it was about, um, these young boys at a high school in a border town in Texas. And, um,

They were Latino young men. Oh, yeah. We watched that. Yes. What is it called? I don't know the name of it. Okay. Basically, you guys, just Google this premise. Jay Hernandez. Yes. Yeah. That's all I can remember. Yes. But they played golf on a court or I guess a course that they had dug up themselves with like shovels and, you know, made little flags out of like T-shirts and milk cartons and sand traps and everything. Yeah.

But they were competing with some of the best teams and winning. Yeah. Because they had a coach that believed in them who was white. Right. And... You know something that's interesting? A lot of the people of color who were good golfers...

Especially the older ones were good at golfing because they were caddies. So that was their access. So they learned the game through observation and then being a part of the establishment where they would get the opportunity to play from time to time. And that was the connection. But they weren't passing that on to their kids because that was work. Hmm.

So it wasn't something that they necessarily shared with the family. I think that's... I mean, it's really interesting because we see that a lot within other sports as well. Like in equestrianism, you see that now as a predominantly white sport. But this...

All of the horse keepers, the first jockeys, they were all people of color. Yeah, exactly. They were all black, like taking care of the horses and they knew the most about the horses. And so it's interesting now that we are seeing more of this history kind of come up and it's great because we can tell these stories and that's exactly what we wanted to do at Recreational Habits is –

tell people like people of color that you do actually have an agency and like a tie to this sport. Maybe you just didn't know about it because people weren't recording it in the books or celebrating it at the time. So it's nice to actually be able to share that. Yeah. Such a shame that the people who write the history books are just the people who had the resources to do so. So before we dive in to recreational habits, you guys are co-founders.

But you also are a couple. You're married. You live together. I don't want to overstate the obvious, but why did you guys decide, hey, I spend 24-7 with this person at home. I'm actually going to make it so that they can never escape me. We will be sitting next to each other all day, every day. Let's go into business together.

Why did we do that? You guys, you see how they were both speechless? Yeah. You know, I think in the beginning...

of your relationship, you always want to be around your person. Yes. And fortunately for me anyway, Jackie can speak for herself, but that feeling of being around her never got old. And so it was just an idea that we had one day. We were coming back from a ski trip in Val d'Azur, France, and we were like, we should figure out

What we can do together. And we started- Because you literally didn't want to spend a single moment apart. That's cute. Well-

I would say Marlon has always been very entrepreneurial like his entire life. And I am totally the opposite where I was like afraid of ever being entrepreneurial because my dad – That's because we're Asian. And my dad was an entrepreneur and I just saw like the highs and lows of how hard that is. So in my head, it was like work for a big company, you know, have like 401k matching, all of that stuff. Don't take any risk. Don't take risks. And –

He was the complete opposite. So he was like, we should just do something. And he made it sound so easy. Yeah.

And fun. And fun. He was like, let's just do something together that we both love, a passion project. So that's kind of where the conversation started. And it was never our intention to do apparel. We had always thought, let's do something digital. Let's do content. Let's tell stories. You know, at that time, it seemed like that's really what we were going to do. And it kind of evolved into this whole other beast that we're in now. Whose idea was it? To do apparel? To start the apparel.

I think it was yours. They're pointing fingers, guys. I don't think that it would have been my idea. Terrible. I came, you know, I come from a... Marlon is like, I would like a polygraph to be brought out. Thanks. I just want to say, I... Does that feel good on your face when you say that? I come from the apparel world. I know how tough it is. And you did it. You were like, I love making my own, like, custom suits. Like, we can do this. Well...

I would say that Jackie was destined to be on her own. And-

I would imagine she feels pretty good about it now. Yeah. I think it was a great decision and it kind of coincided right at the right moment. We had just gotten married. You know, we were thinking about having kids. I was becoming a stepmom. So it was a really great time for me to make a shift. And of course, you know, COVID hit. So like what else are we going to do? Yeah.

So it worked out and I'm very thankful that I had someone like him really push me because I don't think I would have ever taken that risk by myself. Yeah. I think COVID really helped. Yeah, of course. We had lots of time. To play tennis. I feel like so many people also like had a slowdown in their more traditional careers during COVID and were like, I have a genius idea. And I feel like so many genius ideas came out of COVID. Totally. For sure. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, because who takes the time to really stop their life and have you – like COVID made everyone on a global level take a break for the first time. Yeah, I was busy making fuzzy coffee and sourdough. Like I don't – How did your sourdough turn out? Not good. Like I don't know what I suddenly thought. Like I had no business making bread in a 700-square-foot apartment in New York City. Like no business. I would have tried it. Yeah. It was not it. Yeah.

But although it is hotly contentious who actually thought to start an apparel brand, how did you guys decide you wanted to create, you know, preppy clothing? Like, what was the impetus of that? It was just like, oh, we want clothes that we would personally wear or –

Yeah, I would say I, at the time in my career, in my professional career, like before the brand, I was really ready for something a little bit more mature. I was growing up, like I came from this streetwear Virgil Abloh era. And I was like, let's, I want to do something a little bit more mature. I want to focus on, you know, the next phase of my life. And that really felt like

this like preppier style. And so I would always go on Pinterest and make mood boards and think about the woman that I wanted to be and how I wanted to dress. And that's really where I think the visual identity of the brand came from. And I think in doing so, like in like in

just living our life, right? We needed clothes to wear to play tennis, clothes to wear to play golf. And we were just thinking about what was missing in the market. And so I felt like this was an opportunity for us to create something that could have meaning and have, this was something that could have meaning and have value behind the brand, but also serve a purpose in providing clothes for people to wear while playing certain sports. Yeah.

And from a finances perspective, how did that play into your decision to do this, knowing that at this time you've gotten married, you're thinking about becoming a bonus mom, you are thinking about having children together. Kids are expensive. Diapers are expensive. How are you paying for diapers but also starting a company? Well, again, we thought we're probably not going to do apparel. And if we do it, it's going to be on a very small level. Marley is smirky.

So I would say we didn't really have a great financial plan in terms of like what we were going to invest into the company. Okay. From a financial perspective. Yeah.

You know, Marlon wants to say something. Please go ahead. No, no, I was going to say that. We did the thing that you shouldn't do when you start a business. Don't do that. We took an idea that was kind of a hobby, but we wanted to just explore it. And as we started down that path, we kept going. And at some point, we stopped and we really evaluated things from a financial perspective on what we were going to invest in.

time, money. And then, you know, we identified where we wanted to go with it. But initially, we didn't do that. And you know, when you start a business, you really want to create a roadmap, a business plan, right? You want to know exactly what your your risks are, and how you're planning for success. And so we didn't do that. Initially, we were probably, would you consider that a mistake that if you were to go back and give yourself advice, you do that this time?

Yes. Yeah. Or maybe... No, I mean, I would say...

I don't really see things as mistakes, right? I see them as learning curves. Yeah. And I think the knowledge that we have about our business, we wouldn't have gotten if we didn't start it the way we did. Yeah. So I think the mistake could have been if we didn't stop and really assess and put a plan together. I think that would have been fatal across the board. But I think, you know...

I don't recommend you spend money on a hobby and then turn it into a business without a plan. So don't misunderstand me. But I do think that you do have to take risk. You got to take a leap. And when you do that, though, you have to have the mindset that if this turns into something, I really want to cement a plan that I can then go execute to be successful. And I think we did that shortly after we started. Yeah.

I'm going to ask for some numbers here. If you guys feel comfortable sharing, how much did you start your company with and what were the funding sources? It's really hard to say because we didn't set aside a budget. We were both kind of just financing it from our own – Bank accounts. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we just – Do you guys have – oh, so there were no like family and friends investors. It was just your guys' money. Yes. Yeah. How much do you guys think you've put in? Just ballpark estimate.

Total? To date? Yeah. A lot? Let's not answer it. No, I'd say that we probably started the business off with close to a million bucks. Wow. Like all in. No, that's a lot. All in. All in.

Think about it. I don't agree. I don't agree. Think about it. She said to date. Okay, but I'm saying just like initially. Initially. And then there's obviously like a reinvestment in the capital. But to date, I think that's our... No, I think initially like first collection, like to get the first collection out the door, it probably cost us maybe 50K to start with a collection. But again, I think I was...

Again, I was coming from a world that was very much – I was coming – how do I say this? I was coming from an industry that was known to do drops and known to sell out huge quantities, right? So in my head, oh, if we have a minimum of 300 units per color, I didn't ever think that that was going to be an issue, right? And you're paying for all that inventory up front. So a lot of it was –

I just want to clarify something. Okay.

When we started manufacturing, it was like a big business was manufacturing. We didn't start it out like a small business. Jackie's not screen printing in the living room. We were not screen printing. We were not running blanks. If you just run the numbers, and you'll get to where I'm going, on multiple SKUs at a minimum of how much? Probably 300. 300 runs per... And we had...

How many SKUs? We had a lot of SKUs. Okay. So the reason she's saying 50 grand is because I was on the money side.

And, and that this is where, this is where when we come together, we had to take a step back. And eventually I said, you know what? We need a whiteboard. We need to sit down and assess where we're going with this thing because it's getting serious. Yeah. Yeah. And, but that one, that one collection was way more than 50 grand.

If you run the numbers, darling. I have, you know, selective memory at this point. So somewhere between $50,000 to a million dollars. Yeah, somewhere in there. Somewhere in there. Though I think that is a really important conversation for people to be having, right? Like I love this vulnerability and this honesty in that like two people who are

there at the same time have a very different perspective of how much money was invested and what is a piece of advice that you guys would give to other founders or people listening to this who are interested in chasing after a passion project like you guys? How would you tell them to best assess their finances and manage that process as at the very, very start of a new company? You go first.

So I think that when you have an idea, you create a plan. I think before you can go out and fully execute on that plan, you have to do research. And that is time and energy spent, whether it's

capital intensive or human capital, you're still using that as an investment. And so I think that first phase of our business was like that. And I think for entrepreneurs, anyone that's starting a business, you have to know what you're getting into. So having a great idea is amazing.

Setting a plan to execute on that is also important. Working your way backwards from where you want to be and then looking at the financial cost of getting to where you want to go is how you measure your steps in getting there financially. So I think, you know, if there's any advice I could give, I'd say don't be afraid to

to research and dig into the thing that you want to do. But before you really execute, make sure you have that information and you have your plan. Your plan will probably need adjustment along the way, but at least you'll have a really good start on getting on base. I think that is really valuable advice. I agree. Yeah.

I also, but I will say that I think sometimes, you know, people can overthink their plan and they can almost talk themselves away from doing something, right? And I'm not saying, you know, go balls to the walls and just go for it. But I'm saying there is a way you can start small without necessarily having to put up so much

of a financial investment, right? You can do a pre-order. You can do like an early sign up and just gauge the interest and see if your product can actually sell in the market, whatever it is. If it's a service, if it's a good, if someone is willing to pay for your item, you know, you have something that is viable. And I think that's a really great way for you to actually start. Maybe if you're someone like me, that's a little bit more

timid. You know, you don't have to make everything so perfect in order to move forward. Sometimes it's just great to see, to put your idea out there and see if people respond. You know what's so funny? We started this podcast, Jackie, with you saying, I am very reticent to be an entrepreneur.

Marlon is bold, brave, entrepreneurial. The advice the two of you just gave me is so deeply contradictory to those two statements. Marlon's like, make a plan. Make sure to do R&D. You got to do the research. And Jackie's like, you know...

Don't do too much research so you're talked out of a good idea. I absolutely love that. Just so you guys know, you're the first couple that I've had on, and this is so much fun. I'm learning a lot. But I actually do want to talk a little bit more now through the evolution of the business. You guys have had more than just your very first drop. To the best of my knowledge, from the strong social following that you guys are building to the brand awareness to everything –

You guys are doing a really good job. Do you feel like you've had a, ah, we did it moment yet? I don't think I have. I don't think we have. I think there's always room to grow. And I think, you know,

you know, we are number one, a mission led company, right? So we always want to do the most that we can in order to create opportunities for the next generation of, you know, recreational athletes, whether it's for tennis or golf. And so I think in that area, I would love for us to do more. I think it's great that we, you know, sell our products on Shopbop and have distribution in Asia and all of these things, right? Which are great benchmarks. We've had amazing collaborations with Barbie and Keds and

So all of those things are great. But I think for us, what we can create from a cultural level and what we can do for the next generation of people and giving them access and exposure, to me, like, that's the most important thing. And I hope to continue that and scale that way beyond what we've done. Yeah. Yeah.

An agreeing answer. I love that. And how has just like the feedback or the reception for recreational habits been? Like I'm sure you guys talk to your customers. What are they saying? So I was shocked to learn that –

A lot of our, you know, best clients, our returning clients are actually true, like, diehard tennis players, which is really interesting. So, and I think for me, because I'm not a diehard tennis player, I'm very, like, recreational. No, I hate running. I hate it. I mean, I love the sport. It's just I never thought the people that were wearing the clothes were the ones that were, like—

going to their weekly matches every Thursday or whatever. You thought people were using your clothes to do what I did with the clothes, which was wear them to the US Open. Right, to watch. Not use them to play. Yes, totally. And I think we do definitely have a segment of the New York fashion girly who is wearing it on the street and layering it with different things. But then I think when you really look at

who our returning customers are and, you know, how often they're buying and all of that stuff. It's really this community of, like, moms that are, that have picked up tennis, like, after they had kids and that they love it. They just love playing the sport because it gives them something, I think, outside of,

you know, raising kids or whatever they're doing in their own careers. But they have this amazing recreational hobby that they're doing. And so they like to shop for it and align with our brand. So it's great for us. And I was just really surprised to hear that. And I love that. And so I think as we evolve more and leaning more into like technical wear and bringing more of that element into our products, I want to serve that woman more because I think for

At least I feel like I'm in that place where I've had kids or I'm having more kids, you know, and I want to start thinking about like where I'm going next in my life. And I always think that being able to play golf and tennis, like that just brings such a beautiful element to your own life. And so if I can service that woman and give her a fashionable identity, I would love to do that also. Yeah. Yeah.

And I don't want to state the obvious, again, for folks who are watching, but for all of our listeners, Jackie, you are an Asian woman. Marlon, you are a black man. How have you guys felt like diving into a space that has been historically so white? Has that been challenging as two founders of color? I don't think it's been challenging because we know our story. And, you know, I think...

Unless you walk into a room and you think, oh, I'm black or, oh, I'm Asian. Yeah. If you feel that way, then maybe you might feel the weight of it. But I think for us, it's an extent, the brand is an extension of our life. Yeah. Except. Sorry. Go ahead. Like you have lived, like I would say I have also lived in this way, but your entire life and I feel like your career, you've always probably been the only black man in the room.

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For a long time.

What you find quickly is that people will connect because they relate or they understand. So, you know, what's really unique is while there are people of color that support the brand, there are people who are not ethnic that support the mission. Yeah.

And I think, you know, a sweatshirt is a sweatshirt unless it stands for something. Yeah. And so I find that those who are not involved in sports but in the lifestyle connect to the brand because of what the brand stands for. And that unity is something that we were shooting for initially is to break down those barriers so that across the board everyone can feel like they connect to something that means something. Hmm.

Yeah, I agree completely. I think also like it's so awesome to be able to be a go-to brand for someone who gets invited to play golf with their boss for the first time. They're like, well, I don't know what to wear, but I want to wear something that means something to me or I don't want to look like frumpy or out of place. I don't want to wear Titleist. I don't want to wear TaylorMade. So where can I go? And I love that.

people have come to us for something that's a little bit more attractive and stylish. They could wear, they know that they're going to look good. They know they are going to feel good and fit in and they can wear it and play golf and, or learn how to play golf or try to play golf or whatever with their boss. And it's like a great, um,

opportunity to handhold someone into the sport. It is such an opportunity too, because I remember I started my career on Wall Street. And I remember when the young men, the young men analysts were starting to get invited out to client events to play golf. And I was like, oh shit, I don't know how to do that. And I would go to Chelsea Piers after work and I would hit balls. And

I literally would just like the first time I went, it wasn't even playing dumb. I didn't know what I was doing, but there were other young men hitting golf balls at Chelsea Pierce. And I'd be like, can you show me how to do this? And they thought it was like cute. And they'd be like, oh, like this is a single girl playing golf. Like maybe I can get her number. But like, I genuinely leveraged just the kindness of others, like willing to show me how to hit a golf ball. Cause like,

I didn't grow up with that. And you're like, where do I even begin? Yeah. And like if you don't live in New York City or a major metro that probably has like a driving range or something like that, like especially when you live in the suburbs or somewhere where you actually have to go to a course to play.

I don't think we talk enough about the conversation Marlon alluded to earlier about access. These sports are very, very expensive. You have to have the equipment or rent the equipment. Then you got to actually pay greens fees. If you're lazy, you got to rent the cart or some places make you get a caddy. Right. And forget about getting half a hot dog and a Gatorade at the eighth hole, like at the little concession stand, like that's 20 bucks right there. Like,

These are incredibly expensive sports. It's very expensive to rent a tennis court. People line up for hours to play on the West Side Highway in New York because those courts are free. Like, how do you guys hope that your brand will open up doors for people who want to do these hobbies and play these sports in the future?

Well, I'll start. I would say that the first one is exposure. I think that there are – yes, it's very expensive to play a lot of these sports. And golf and tennis, I think those are becoming more popular. Pickleball, you know, these are easier steps. Pickleball. Pickleball.

I can hear the pings right now. I know, but like it's become such a popular thing because I feel like there's more – it's a more democratic sport than tennis, right? It's something you could play really casually. You don't necessarily need to be the most fit. You don't need to have like a legacy, you know, at a club. There's a lot more courts opening up. You can get a pickleball set for $15.99 on Amazon. Right. You don't have to get a fancy racket and, you know. And you could play it, you know, on a hard top basketball court kind of, you know, setting. Yeah.

So I think that being able to—I think the most important thing is exposure. So I think if there's a willingness for kids in urban communities or communities that are maybe less wealthy to even start thinking about these sports, I think that's a great first step. So if we can provide that, whether that's through social or, you know, whatever we can do in order to expose them, I think that's great. I think also just—

like educating people that there are public courses, there are certain resources for them that they can take up. And that's a great first step or that's a great second step for us, but also hosting free clinics for kids. We like to do that or partner with certain organizations that that's their main objective is to give access and education in these sports specifically to kids in underprivileged communities. So I feel like when we were living in Virginia,

We partnered with this group called City Kids D.C. And what they did is they took a cohort of students. So you start from sixth grade. It's from sixth grade to twelfth grade. And every year they take these kids to Jackson Hole for summer break. And so they learn how to, like, hike and fish and all of these amazing life-enriching outdoor experiences that you wouldn't get if you grew up in D.C., right? Like, you just don't have access to it.

So it was amazing for us to partner with an organization like that. And so I think as we grow and scale, we want to continue building out these programs in a very meaningful way. Yeah, that's good. It's always been about the mission. Yeah, indeed. I think then if not, then why? Yeah. You know? You didn't do it for the money?

This is not an – I don't think apparel is the industry you're going to. It wasn't necessarily about the money. It wasn't about the money for sure. But to add on to what Jackie was saying, the clinics, we were really surprised at the reception that we received from so many of the community when we hosted these clinics. And we told them that the clinics, the proceeds from the clinics were going to go to sponsor clinics.

underprivileged kids and the city.

To give them exposure to what it's like to be on a farm, to ride horses, to tack, you know. I think you should go into, I think you should explain like the polo clinic specifically because that was. Yeah, so. That's a very hard sport to get into. Yeah, I was going to say, can I get into that now or no? Because like I don't own a horse or like have a place to stable it. Yes, you can. So I'll give you the background, how this came about. So we moved down to Virginia from New York.

My daughter had ridden horses, so I was involved in the horse community as an investor for my daughter's horse. A patron of the equestrian sport. Supporting her hobby. I love that your daughter is a horse girl. Yeah. She was. She was. She's grown out of it now, unfortunately. But Marlon got sucked in. Well, so we moved down to Virginia and we bought a horse farm.

You bought a horse farm? Yeah, we bought a horse farm. I don't think I knew that. Yeah. We were just... Full on. Like literally the week, two weeks after we bought the place...

There was like the hunt that came through our property. Yes, the drinking thing. Well, that's why people do it. I know. I understand. That's not real. But let me clarify. The drinking thing is a whole bunch of really posh people on these horses with really –

tailored jackets and you know there's dogs and horses of course I just referred to a sporting event as that drinking event yeah and then they all have a flask yes of course so we must have had like 30 people

riders come to our property. And so in that part of the country, horse riding is everything. So people do the hunt like two, three times a week. So Jackie's like, well, I'm going to take riding lessons. And Kingsley's riding. She's like, well, what are you going to do? And I'm like, what do you mean? I'm going to watch you guys do your thing. She's like, no, you got to be part of the community. So I said, okay. She goes, look, either you fox hunt, which I think is crazy. Yeah.

Or you play polo, which I found out is crazier than fox hunting. But I didn't know that. Like at first, I was like, anybody could play polo. And so I Googled where you can get polo lessons. I love when experts say, so I Googled. Polo lessons near me. Literally, I called two people and this one guy answered his phone. I'm going to give him a plug right now. His name is John Gobin.

John Gobin, who ended up becoming my polo coach, was like, Marlon.

Come on down here. Can you come right now? And I'm like, right now? He's like, yeah, right now. And he's like, where do you live? I'm like, this is where I live. He's like, okay, I'm a mile and a half from there. I said, oh, okay. So I get in my car and I go. I get over there and there's like 40 horses getting ready to be put into these trailers. Yeah. Shipping them down to Wellington for the season. Because it was getting cold. It was getting cold. Yeah.

He makes me sign a waiver. Which is like, if you crack your head, I'm not liable. And I get on a horse and literally I follow him into this arena and he walks me around in a circle on the horse. And he's like, okay, I think you're good. And he puts a mallet in my hand. And immediately once the mallet was in my hand,

I forgot about the horse, which I was nervous about. And I started riding normal. And then he threw the ball down and I was able to like follow after the ball. And so in that first session, um,

I was actually doing something and I was like, this is really cool. And then he leaves. It's like, look, I'm going away for like three or four months, but you can come here every day. I'll have somebody train you and you can play if you want to. And so that's what I started doing. And when the season came, I was able to play and compete. And so I tell everybody that- Are you just like a prodigious polo player or could I do this too? Oh, 100% you can't.

I didn't know how to ride horses prior to that day. But it all came together. And so my idea, I was like, listen, we got to make sure that people understand that it's not as...

monumental to get into this as you think. So when we hosted the clinics, everyone that came was just like me. And I told them, I'm like, trust me, I'm going to walk you around. I'm going to put in literally every single person. I did the same thing to them that he did to me, but the mallet in their hand, I put the ball down and everybody started riding. And so that's how people learn to ride. And then they started playing. So from that clinic, we must've had 20 people that are now

regular polo players that play every weekend because of what we exposed them to. And they live in like D.C. And they live in D.C. They drive out. They drive 45 minutes out every weekend. They're like lawyers and accountants. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So it's a thing that once people are exposed to it, it's amazing, you know, how much fun it is, but it's also addicting too. It's like, you know. And what a nice thing to have a hobby because I think something a lot of people,

high achieving and especially working professionals struggle with is people ask you at a party, the first thing they ask you is like, what do you do? And the answer is always your job. Right. And there's so much of your self-worth tied to that job. Right. Wouldn't it be nice if some of who we are and what we do were the things that actually brought us joy versus just brought us money? Yeah. Totally. Absolutely. Your identity. Yeah. Your identity. Exactly. Exactly. So-

I do want to chat a little bit about how you feel like having a fashion brand is different versus having other companies. Marlon has made a couple jokes now at this point. Like, what is specifically challenging that you would want to share about running a clothing brand?

So I think that we're in a really interesting time because I think the way that people are running their business is shifting. Yeah. A lot of the fashion business before was based on your wholesale accounts. It was about getting into Bergdorf or, you know, Barney's and having the right... Isn't that... Yeah, I know. I used to work there. I was the fashion director there for... But anyways, so I think before it was all about the wholesale accounts and...

where you were being stalked. And now I think because of Instagram and, you know, Shopify and all of these different platforms, you can create your own business for a niche community and have a very successful business without ever having any wholesale. And I think that's a really important thing to note because then you can stay true to what you are as a brand and who you are and the people that you're serving versus listening to your buyer who says,

oh, we love this dress. We need it in red. And in your head, you're like, I would never make that in red. But you're trying to do it because you're, you know, you're selling, you know, you're selling to a whole. Exactly. And if that's what they're telling you, you know, that's that you feel like as a designer or a, you know, product creator, that's where you need to go. So it's nice to be able to own your client now and have that direct to consumer relationship where you can really understand who they are, what they're buying, how often they're coming back.

And, again, I think you can make those informed decisions to kind of strengthen your business versus continuing to recreate something because your buyer is like, well, we need more. We need to, you know, we need more of this or we need more of this or you need to add, you know, ski or you need to add outerwear. And maybe you don't want to do that or you're not ready to do that, right? Because all of that is a financial investment. So it's just great to be able to own your client and really hone in on what works for you and, yeah.

I would say essentially season after season, like trim the fat and get smarter about who your brand is and who you're serving. Yeah. Yeah.

Ooh, I thought, I felt like that was a really, really strong answer. It was. Do you agree? I do agree. I do agree. And do you feel like consumers are also getting smarter in that they're really mindful now about what they're buying? I think we've seen it happen in the beauty industry in that kind of the old guard, which used to, you know, run everything, have every brand is now trying to keep up with new, younger, more edgy brands.

more startup-y feeling brands that literally their entire marketing department is just TikTok. Like, how are you guys navigating that new space? And how are you making sure that you are speaking to your consumer? Do you want to take this? Go ahead. I think, you know, if you can stay authentic in...

your marketing or in your outreach. Jackie, do you know that that's like the number one most used word when it comes to social media, authenticity? I just think it, I mean, and it's tough because obviously you, as the founders, you want it to be your own voice, but you also need to have a team in order to start being able to focus on other things. But I think across the board, if you can be authentic and if your team can align with your brand and what you stand for and your mission, then I feel like it will be communicated to the right client. And I think that,

I also think that there are people who really care about our mission. And I think there are people that buy because of the mission. And I think there are people that don't. Like there are people that discover the product because an influencer that they think is cool or they like what they're looking like or, you know, they are promoting it because – and that's why they want to buy it. And so it's always hard to really manage the customer experience for every single person. But I think if you –

as founders and as directors of your team can always stick to your guns and try to be authentic, then I think it will eventually reach your clients in the right way. Can I ask you a question? Yeah, please. I was literally just going to say, like, I'm your rich BFF. Do you have any questions for me? Yeah. So when you say that authenticity is the number one used term. Yeah.

What do you think the common denominator is from people's perspectives when they say that? People say authenticity, but I think the real word is probably vulnerability. Like it used to be product launch coming in T-minus five days. And now suddenly we're seeing founders literally cry on the floors of their living room being like, I –

I'm sick. I don't feel good. I'm supposed to be at the speaking thing tonight to make sure that I can make the right networking connections. It's not working. Everything is bad. And we're watching it like it's almost like a soap, a drama. And then when a brand is ultimately successful –

We were on the living room floor together. I was there with you shooting in the gym. And then, like, it feels that much better. And I want to support that person that much more because I know the story. It's not just show me the fancy packaging. Like, I really do feel like, especially the next generation, like, I remember dial-up internet, like, forever.

I know people in my life that I'm personally friends with that have never, ever lived a lifetime without high-speed internet. And when you are raised in that environment, the metallic packaging doesn't get you anymore. The fun bubble letters, they don't get you anymore. It's really got to be a story and people have to like not just the product but the story and connect. That's a great answer. That's a great answer. Thank you. I think that

bringing the consumer inside. Yeah. Is really truth. Yeah. Right. Which is real authenticity. And I think when we share that, yeah, the journey, right. It's how we got here. Yeah. But also why, yeah. You know, and if you can, uh,

convey that through your design or through your storytelling. So much of what we do with the product is created based on an idea and a story so that people can relate and connect to it. But the thought behind that and how we got there is something that we try to share with people. So when we started out doing the different collections, each one was inspired by something that meant something to us. There

Therefore, it was easier for us to convey that in what we presented to the public. And so you'll find that people mirror the conveyance. So if you're demonstrating something in a certain way or presenting it in a certain way, they will do that same thing also. And then they have their own experience from it. And I think that sort of connection with the consumer is why we do what we do because that's

We know we actually connected with them when we see that happen. So when they send us pictures of them, you know, on the golf course or playing tennis or playing pickleball and that sort of aesthetic of the thing that we were selling or telling them, that's the connection. That's the validation that we are being authentic and true to what our brand stands for. Yeah. And Jackie, I don't know if you remember this. The reason why we initially got connected was because you were so vulnerable with me.

You sent me an email that said, like something along, I'm paraphrasing. It was something along the lines of,

Hi, Vivian. I've been watching your content. I'm pregnant and I've been having horrible morning sickness. So after I throw up, I lay on the bathroom floor and I watch your videos. And I'm going to be honest. I get so many. I'm very, very fortunate. I get so many opportunities of brands wanting to send me stuff to the point where my husband has gotten to be like, no, no, no, no, no more. You don't want this. We don't need this. You're not going to use this. Do not accept this.

I had never, ever had a founder email me and be like, so... I just threw up. I just threw up. I'm watching your content. You know, I have morning sickness. Like, I'm in my, you know, whatever, the first trimester or the second trimester, whatever you were in. And I was like, okay, let me actually read this email. Okay.

And that is what made me stop scrolling because I normally go through – I don't know if you do this. Like, I do email triage in the morning. Each email, you get 15 seconds to catch my attention or otherwise it's deleted. Right. Because I know. I'm like, okay, my manager is going to answer that. Agent is going to answer that. Yeah. I stopped to scroll to actually read your email. I did – I have no memory. But I remember doing it, right? Yeah. I remember being sick. I remember being there.

And obviously watching your content. But I don't remember the email that I sent you, but I'm glad I did, obviously. But it sounds a lot like you. But honestly, I think like the conversation is often like, how do creators get brands attentions? But like these days, it's also like, how does a brand actually imprint on you?

somebody who they may want to work with or like send product or like how do you make a difference how do you make somebody stop when like we're all just day trading attention right now right and it's like you're vulnerable mm-hmm

I think you also have to genuinely want to work with the creator, right? Like you have to actually watch their content and really connect with them. And that's what's going to make you, at least as founders, reach out to somebody and be like, hey, I really love this aspect of what you're doing and this is how I connected with it. And maybe that would stop someone, you know? How do you guys choose now, like,

your partners are? Like, how did the Keds thing come by? But like, how do you choose brands to partners with, creators to partner with? Like, who are you sending product to? Like, how do you find that? So the Keds conversation was really interesting because I had always wanted to work with them when I was working at Kith. And it was just never something that came into fruition. And so I was like, when we started this brand, I was like, the sneaker brand we have to work with is Keds.

Because I knew their history. They had made the first woman's sneaker. They had made, you know, they were like the female first kind of product. And they were a super old sneaker brand. I think second. You didn't want to be like, oh, we'll work with Sperry, like a boat shoe or like Jack Rogers. So both conversations that we've had, but I think because we wanted to make a tennis, a

a shoe that you could play tennis in, we were like, let's go after Keds. I mean, it's just such an iconic brand and that's really where we wanted to, if we were doing a collaboration, that's where we wanted to start. But the woman, Nicole at Keds, actually reached out to us and she was like, I'm seeing you guys on all of these mood boards for like,

WGSN or like some sort of, you know, fashion forecasting thing. So everyone, you know, kind of they were putting our campaigns on their mood boards, talking about tennis core and all this stuff. And so and Nicole from Keds was like, and no one on my team has reached out to you guys. So I'm going to reach out and say, you know, we're fans of what you're doing. And so it was such an organic conversation that we had. And they were amazing partners. And we have loved working with them. We've done two shoes with them so far.

But that's really, you know, it was such an organic, you know, conversation. It wasn't forced. We were both fans of each other and it came together in a really natural way. And I think that's kind of when the best, you know, collaborations take place. I love that. So I want to wrap us up. I can't believe we've been chatting for a minute now. I know. But You're Rich BFF. This is Net Worth and Chill.

Are there any money questions you want to ask me? Any ideas that we can bounce off together? How can I help you guys? Y'all didn't think I was going to hit you with that. I'm genuine. Wait, I'm just going to jump in really quick. I want you to percolate on your question. I want to know, I know we talked about this a little bit, but now you're married, right? And you...

Even though you've been boyfriend and girlfriend or fiance for a long time, like, have you ever thought about starting a business with your husband at this point? Yeah.

We haven't. I will be honest in that Boo is a huge supporter of what I do. He's always there to, like, be a sounding board, and sometimes he has to be a stand-in videographer. But I think for him, he is more like you in that he really values sound.

And he has a really great trajectory in the financial space still. And he...

is the reason why we have health insurance. So I think for us, it makes sense for him to continue having a more traditional job. We have health insurance. You know, he's able to contribute to a retirement account for me there. Not that I'm not doing so on my own here, but there are benefits to each that are harder to come by

If both of us were to have traditional W-2 jobs or more nonconventional entrepreneurial jobs. So the blend right now works better. Listen, never say never. If for some reason or other my business were to take off, take off, suddenly it's, you know, an eight-figure business, yeah, I would tap him in. I would say, like, at that point we would need to have a conversation because I wouldn't be able to do it alone. Right. Yeah.

But not there yet. But fingers crossed, maybe someday. Yeah. I love it. And where do you see your business going over the next three to five years? Ooh, mine. Listen, I think it's, I really want it to become a media empire. I started my brand on digital, but I'd like to take it, you know, in multiple different avenues. Obviously, we're doing a podcast right now. I am working on a second book.

I would love to get into the TV space. But ultimately, I would like to have some sort of product or service that I'm able to provide directly to the folks at home versus having to rely on being essentially an entertainer. Some really great advice that my friend Tiffany Aliche gave me. She is the budget nista. I love her. She said to me, right now, you're dancing for a dollar. And...

It's a lot of dollars. It's good dollars. But you are still at the beck and call of other brands. You got to be at a point where you just own it.

And other people are your beck and call. Right. And that was eye-opening for me. Right. I feel like – I mean, and we talk about this all the time, right? Because I think there's like influencer product brands where you have to show up constantly all the time. All the time. Every day. And there are brands like Ralph Lauren that become its own, you know, kind of – Like no one actually knows what Ralph Lauren looks like anymore. Right.

They do. I mean, yes, exactly. But it's not in the day-to-day. He's not in the logo. Totally. It's the aesthetic. It's not like the old man who now is taking a selfie to push a product. And I think eventually all businesses, as founders grow up, maybe they want to get to that. I mean, some people love being on camera and that's fine. But I'm always curious for people who are very much in front of the camera, like how – do you ever feel like I –

want to be able to like sit in the back seat sometime or maybe have other people be on the podcast or hosting the podcast? Like how is your take on that? I think I'm an egomaniac. So no, I'm just kidding. No, I think for right now, I really do love making content. I love, you know, putting together a little script and doing the filming. And I'll be honest, I've never liked editing. That was one of the first things I tried to delegate when I was starting to hire. But

Um, I think content right now serves me being front facing, but over time, especially I think as I start my family more like traditionally, like with kids and stuff, I'll want to take a step back. Like there'll be days where I don't feel like filming. And I think that's a conversation that like is going to come fast and furiously. And to your point, I might need to think about it a little bit more because it may serve me better to be behind the camera instead of in front of it all the time.

Do you want to have kids? Yeah. I mean, I'm going through the embryo freezing process right now. Oh, you are? Yeah. Okay, I didn't know that. So I'm also super hormonal. Amazing. But it's, you know, it's been real. Like, it's a very expensive process. I mean, I feel very, very fortunate. It's $20,000 for the egg freezing process, $5,000 for the drugs that you actually have to take.

it's $10,000 on top of that to actually put it into your body again or put it into a surrogate or what have you. It's just, that's, you're looking at 35 grand and that's for one cycle. And I think if you want to store them, right? Like it's a year to store them, to freeze them. So it's like, even you're paying for the time. Yeah. So it's not cheap, but it is a conversation that my husband and I are having. And I'd love to close this out with where do you guys see both

your brand, but also your family going in three to five years.

I can tell you where it's not going. We won't be having any more children. Oh, okay. After this one. Yeah. Well, I don't know when this is airing, but people don't know. I mean, I don't want to say people. Like, we're not whatever celebrities. But I am pregnant again. I know. Congratulations. There's an exclusive there. So after this child, I think we're done having kids. We have four at home now, and then we'll have one more. Right.

Full house. Very full house. Very busy. You know, we have kids of all ages, so that really has spread us thin in terms of, like, trying to be at every practice and game and, you know, after school activities and all of that. But I think as a brand, we've –

I think as a brand, we want to lean into more bringing in more technical elements into the actual product and getting smarter and getting better at being more sustainable and just creating something that continues to have, you know, best in class performance. Yeah.

And like I had mentioned, like being able to put on more clinics and doing more for the mission of what we're actually standing for. And then I think just expanding more internationally. I think there's a lot of opportunity in Asia and in Europe. And so I think we're looking forward to expanding internationally. Yeah. And I think infrastructure wise, you know, getting to a place where the assets don't go home at night.

You know, I think once we get to that, where the business is the business, right? And so I think that is the goal over the next few years is to get to that point. So we can then balance out managing that business and family as well. And also one of the benefits of living here in LA or living in California was that we wanted to

potentially start producing more content that was specific to the stories, to the stories that we want to tell. Right. So I think there's a lot of untold history in our country that is beautiful and super inspiring. And if we can be part of the conversation and bringing that to life, we would love to do that. Yeah. That would be actually getting back to where we started is wanting to storytell. So we think we'll be able to do that with the platform that we have. Yeah.

The new American dream. Exactly. I love it. Thank you guys so much for joining me. Thank you for having us. Thanks for tuning into this week's episode of Net Worth and Chill, part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. If you liked the episode, make sure to leave a rating and review and subscribe so you never miss an episode.

Got a burning financial question that you want covered in a future episode? Write to us via podcast at yourrichbff.com. Follow Net Worth and Chill Pod on Instagram to stay up to date on all podcast related news. And you can follow me at yourrichbff for even more financial know-how. See you next week.