Unabridged interview with Patrick (son of Dr. Sally Smith)
01:13:21 Share

Hello, it's Andrea. So today we are bringing you the unabridged version of one of my favorite conversations that I had this season. And this is with Patrick, who is Dr. Sally Smith's son. You know, the biggest surprise of the season was that I got the opportunity to interview

Dr. Sally Smith, and it happened because of Patrick. He reached out to me early on in our season. And so it was really fascinating to get to sit down and connect with Patrick and just talk to him more about who his mom actually is and what this whole experience has been like for his family.

And of course, I also got to interview his mother, Dr. Sally Smith, and we are going to be sharing the unabridged version of that conversation, but that one is going to be subscriber only. So if you want to listen to that, go ahead and check us out on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon. In the meantime, here is my conversation with Patrick.

This episode is brought to you by Experian. Are you paying for subscriptions you don't use but can't find the time or energy to cancel them? Experian could cancel unwanted subscriptions for you, saving you an average of $270 per year and plenty of time. Download the Experian app. Results will vary. Not all subscriptions are eligible. Savings are not guaranteed. Paid membership with connected payment account required.

Did you know that I have a new book coming out? True Story. And unlike my previous books, this one actually is a true story. The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, which I co-authored with friend of the show, Detective Mike Weber, chronicles three of his most harrowing and impactful cases—

Longtime listeners of the show will have some familiarity with these cases, but I promise you will learn so much more about them, and you'll also just learn so much more about Detective Mike's journey in this arena and also mine. Dr. Mark Feldman, another friend of the show and an esteemed expert in all things Munchausen by proxy, read an early copy, and this is what he had to say about it.

A truly vital, groundbreaking, and riveting contribution to the true crime literature on child abuse. Over the past four decades, I have read just about everything dealing with medical deception, including Munchausen by proxy abuse, and can easily affirm that this immensely readable book is the most important literary work since Professor Rory Meadow coined the Munchausen by proxy term 50 years ago.

And if you don't think that that endorsement from that particular man made me cry, you would be wrong. So the book comes out on February 4th of next year, and now I know what you're thinking. Andrea, why are you talking to me about this right now? February is approximately 100 years from now. We have to do a whole election and whatever else before then. And I hear you, but I'm telling you this now because, as you may know if you have any other authors in your life, pre-orders are

are vital to a book's success and will really affect how our publisher positions and supports the book's launch. So if you think you are going to buy this book, doing so now will really help us out. It's available for pre-order in all formats wherever books are sold, and you can find it at a link in the show notes. I hope you will love it, and I appreciate your support. Well, it's so good to see you. So I just wanted to start with, how did you find...

The podcast. And because you reached out to me, I got a voicemail from you. This was, gosh, this was a few months ago, probably now, a couple months ago. So how did you find the podcast and what compelled you to reach out? Yeah, at the time that the Netflix film came out that sort of launched this whole story into a more,

into the public discourse, a good friend of mine shared the podcast with me. And this was at a time when the dialogue was pretty one-sided about the whole case and about, you know, sort of what my mom did, both in her usual role and in this case specifically. So, and the podcast immediately stood out to me as specifically the episode of

you and some of your guest hosts responding to the film that stood out to me as a really measured and critical take, as in a lot of critical thinking was applied to the claims made in the film. So, yeah, I mean, the work kind of spoke for itself. Well, I really appreciate that. And I mean, obviously, so I wanted to interview you

Dr. Sally Smith from the beginning of starting on this project, probably before that, because I'd read even about her in some other stories. And this was the interview that I thought I was never going to get this season. I just thought, I think I put in a request through the communications folks from Johns Hopkins, but I was like, there's no way she is ever talking to the media again. You know, she did the one interview with New York Magazine and they just

dinner so dirty in my opinion and so I was shocked when I heard from you and I mean given how your mom's been treated in the media I mean did that feel risky even reaching out to me? It felt really risky. I at the time was I think we had received harassment online we were concerned about

um, people actually coming to her house. And, um, you know, we have that fear even now my family does about any sort of media, um, contacts. And so it took two to three weeks, I think, before I even started to consider the idea of, of reaching out to you all. Um, the, um, yeah, the, um,

I don't know what else to say beyond that. It was after I had started to see some of your further coverage on the case and then also looking into your coverage of past medical child abuse cases that I

Knowing what my mother had been through with other interviews, I really started to think that this was a really rare chance to talk to someone who would really consider all the aspects of the story and not simply the parts that can be kind of sensationalized. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I was super honored to hear from you guys. And I'm really interested to know...

I assume, you know, you and I have been talking back and forth for a couple of months and I've had a kind of series of conversations and, um,

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I feel sort of, I think we feel a bit of a bond because there's just so few people that it seems like are understanding what's happening here. And it can make you feel like you're losing your mind a little bit. And I really appreciated being able to have that connection with you. And I'm assuming that it took some convincing to get your mom involved.

to be open to the idea of talking to a podcaster. And I mean, I'm curious what you can tell me about how those conversations went. I didn't bring up the idea of my mother talking to the podcast until after you and I had had a few phone calls. I think we'd had two phone calls at the point that I opened the idea up to her. And it,

She was really hesitant at first, I think, you know, rightfully so. And it was only after I shared podcasts with her that had discussions with Carol Jenny and with sort of other people in the field that she really looks up to and respects and that have gone through a similar experience as she has.

And, um, and I am, you know, I'm kind of a podcast junkie or at least I was, I think, um, this, this last, uh, this last few months has kind of, uh, broken my brain a little bit and, um, kind of changed my ability to consume anything. And so, um, so I'd say at least used to be. And, uh, and I remember talking to my mom and telling her like, you know, I've listened to a lot of different,

And, and I said like, this one is, um, it's different, or at least it's in, you know, the high, uh, high tier of like doing your homework and, um, documenting the, your sources and claims. And, um,

And it was through that combination of sort of my, I guess, experience consuming of podcasting and my take on it to her, plus her just listening to some of those curated episodes and getting a sense of the kind of work that you all do. Yeah. Say a little bit more about what you just said when you said that these last few months have broken your brain a little bit when it comes to consuming media, because...

I think I'm going through something similar. So tell me what you mean when you say that. Well, it has been a gradual process that has kind of worn us down, us being my mom and her family. This all started...

uh, a few, well, you know, it started in what, July or so, or it started in the summer when the film came out. And, um, at the time I was working, um, really, uh, on the other side of the world, um, in a pretty remote area. And so, um, and doing a job where I actually used to listen to podcasts a lot, like one, you know, a lot of people do just like one headphone in. And, um,

And I would go out into this, when I would go out for a day of work, I'd be out of cell range and I would just have these almost like anxiety attacks during work thinking about, you know, I knew that my mom was being doxxed, harassed, identified that people were talking about coming to her house and burning it down or hurting her. And that was, I think that the wires kind of get crossed in your brain when you're worrying about something that's that intense.

And, um, and I listened to, you know, various hot take episodes on the film just to see what people were saying. And it was just one after the other people saying like this woman deserves to anything from go to jail to, to die. And, um, yeah, uh, created, I think like the association in my brain is now with like, um, a fair amount of stress with any sort of

coverage of this, of this case. And then also sort of the format of podcasting has been kind of distorted for me now. But yeah, yeah, I can, I can see that. And I think, you know, it's so personal and visceral for you. I think this was what, you know, and it's, it's on such a more muted level, because I think there are these varying, you know, degrees here where like,

I remember what it felt like to see that, my Kix and Bog piece in the paper and in our, you know, in our local paper and on our local TV station. And that was a national story, but I mean, it's not the level of tens of millions of people watching a,

Netflix film and then sort of this whole cottage industry of people, you know, covering that case because of that. I mean, obviously I'm included there, but, you know, I just remember feeling like, yeah, like this really deep sense of betrayal and, you know, just injustice at how wrong they'd gotten it. And it was a very similar thing to what, you know, formula wise to what's happened to your mom, where they picked on the doctor and, you

She got harassed. She got, you know, a ton of blowback. Really, reputation got dragged for the mud. They dug up a few other families that were mad at her and just used the same exact formula. And could she say anything? Nope, because nobody had signed a HIPAA release. So, you know, and in that case, like I knew about that case. I feel very strongly that that doctor's actions probably saved my niece's life. And to watch her go through that was totally devastating. And so you've been through that, but like amplified by, you know,

a huge factor in terms of that being your mom who's the person directly being criticized and just like yeah I mean I the online vitriol against her and it sounds like some of which is translated into real life is like nothing I've like almost like nothing I've ever seen um so I'm just I I really yeah I just I really feel for you um so I want to just back up um

Assuming that you watched the movie. Yes, I did. I mean, what was your... Did you know much about it going in? Were you... I mean, what was your experience of watching the movie? Well, you know, I was aware that this case had happened, obviously. The pieces had been written in the Sarasota Herald Tribune before, and those had prompted some...

questions from me to my mom about like, I mean, starting from the point of, you know, are you doing okay? This was before the, uh, it had been picked up by Netflix, but, um, I think, um, both because of how seriously my mother takes the sort of privacy of this whole topic. And I think just the nature of our relationship and how we can discuss things. Um,

I have always kind of understood that, you know, I have to respect that boundary as something that she can't talk about. And so up to the point of the film being released, I had no idea who, you know, any of the details of the case or who the family was, though I was roughly aware of sort of the

medical child abuse analysis that she had done. And that this was one of the more alarming cases that she had encountered in her career. So that was the extent of what I knew about the case before the film came out. And just knowing...

how my mom sort of approaches like the, you know, critical thinking and sort of like the scientific aspect of her work. I could pretty quickly see the way that the film was edited and the way that they presented their story, that it was really not presenting it from that with, with that kind of frame of mind. But, but I did still kind of, I tried to maintain some respect for that. The sort of,

the privacy that the, that everybody in these cases deserves the families, you know, most of all in the children that are affected. Yeah. You know, it's really, I have to say it's, it's striking to hear you say that and having spoken to your mom, hearing her talk about it that same way and even seeing, you know, the back and forth, she, you know, sent me the email with Liz Boyd, who's the fact checker for New York magazine. And it,

Seeing how seriously she takes the privacy of the families as a whole, and specifically, of course, of the kids. And that, to me, has been one of the points of real dissonance in watching the actions of the people who are right now positioning themselves as Maya's advocates, as Maya Kowalski's advocates. Jack Kowalski, her father, and Gregory Anderson, the lead attorney, both.

Their actions have demolished any hope that this young woman ever has of privacy and have put her and her brother in a position to relive their worst traumas over and over and over again for their entire teenage years and going forward to however, who knows how long, because...

There's this legal case is nowhere near from over. And even when that's over, the reverberations of it have been their defining years. And to see that behavior contrasted with the medical professionals involved, even understanding that there's like a legal issue of HIPAA and all that stuff. But just like I can tell that's something that your mom really takes seriously just as a value and value.

To look at that in contrast to the way that this has been turned by the other side, by the plaintiff's side, into a pop culture story is really, yeah, dissonant to say the least. So, yeah, I can see that. So if we can just back up from the whole recent events.

I'd love to know just what your mom was like as a mom growing up. You know, how you know her. Well, I think that everyone who, in our, you know, sort of nuclear family, as well as just everyone in her life, would say she's like a caretaker personality type, if that makes sense. She...

I think to, to the point that it like, you know, irritates me and my sibling, you know, if we ask my mom what she wants to do, where she wants to go out to eat or something, it's like, like she is just solely focused on like what other, what would make other people happy. And I have, I,

You know, I think that everybody thinks that their mother is special, but, like, I truly, like, think that the amount of, like, happiness she created in our lives when we were young kids is, like, is kind of... I mean, it just... It's hard to describe. And she was this... She's... She's warm. She's not stern. She's, like...

just pays attention to needs that you don't really realize that you have in the moment and then um but then at the same time growing up with her like my sister and I were I think aware from like relatively early age the sort of work that she did and so it was interesting to grow up in her household and in all of our one-on-one interactions or interactions as a family she's just she's um

warm and caring and then she has to do this job where you have to actually kind of turn off part of your um I think the emotion parts of your brain um she would just work these like late hours into the night um remember our dinner or our dining table not being a dining table instead it was covered in um like that that was her office that she would work in and and um

And I just remember her working there late at night and working on these topics that are just really brutally serious, you know, like blood in a kid's urine or like a bizarre fracture that nobody can explain to anybody in the everyday society would think that a kid had fallen two stories out of a building or something. But in fact, it's related to...

a parent that couldn't control their emotions. I think a lot of people have, I've actually seen the speculation about like clips taken from her deposition where she seems robotic or something. And I mean, it's weird to see that so prominently displayed when it's such a tiny part of her day-to-day life and not a part of her personality. It's more that I think you have to have this ability to separate your

The warmth and caring that would motivate you to be a pediatrician, you know, from the job that forces you to face some of the darkest parts of human nature. Yeah, I mean, that's so well said. And it is, it's a quality that I feel like, you know, there's two other child abuse pediatricians that I've gotten to know pretty well, Dr. Carol Jenny and then Dr. Jamie Kaufman, who we've had on the show a bunch recently.

And I mean, I think it's a real like there is just a real specific quality. Again, it's that that not very many people have. I mean, I think it's just one of those jobs you either sort of are designed for or not, where you have, you know, the ability to like get to look that the darkest element that like most of us couldn't.

would be haunted by a day in that job, you know, let alone decades. And yes, your mom cracked us all up when she said that her sister called her before she went down to testify and reminded her about her resting bitch face. And that just...

I also, yeah, have seen some of that commentary. And, you know, number one, she's giving a deposition to Gregory Anderson, you know, for many, many hours on the stand. And I do not want to know what my face would look like if I had to be giving him a deposition for 20 minutes. But, you know, yeah, we have this real, I mean, there's a real misogyny here that like, it's

if a woman has a serious look on her face, a woman who's in a serious role, who's on the stand, like, I don't know what people exactly want her face to look like under those circumstances because it would be deranged if she was smiling during that. But yeah, I mean, we do judge women that way. And yeah, I mean, I think that that sort of selective editing that happened in the film in particular was pretty notable. Yeah.

I'm interested to know when you said, you know, I think it's always really funny to like ask kids what they think their parents do for a living. I famously told someone when they asked me what my dad did for a living that he didn't actually do much. He just told other people what to do, which, you know, I kind of stand by that. I'm kidding. But like, did you like with that's obviously like, you know, there's obviously got to be like a lot of sort of age appropriate moments of explaining that kind of work. Like,

Do you remember like what, you know, like, do you remember kind of what the process of understanding what your mom did for a living was like? So I have been trying to reconstruct this recently. I mean, since this all has been thrust so fully into it under a spotlight. And, yeah.

I think the point where I knew where she worked was because when I got old enough to notice the times when she had to leave at weird hours, you know, and like, you know, if she wasn't there for dinner and you start to ask, like, where's mom? You know, and my dad would just tell us, like, oh, she had to go to child protection team.

And it was like a word, you know, like when you're a kid, sometimes words mash together. You think child protection tape, like that, you think it's like one word. It's like a place. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's, it's a name, you know, it's like Publix or something. So that was when I kind of became aware of it. And then it must've been, you know, that would have been like five or six years old. And then I started to put together that those words are separate and mean something. And then I remember, I,

I must've been around 10 or maybe nine or 10. And I remember asking my sister about a phone call that my mom had had to take. And I didn't understand some of the words that she said, you know, I mean, like she would take these calls privately, but sometimes, you know, you overhear snippets. And I asked my sister what blood in the stool meant. And my sister who's

you know, uh, close to three years older than me, I think it, you know, picked up more than I could and told me that, um, you know, that, that just rather matter of fact, that that's what happens when, um, uh, someone's been beaten to the point that they're bleeding inside. And, um, and then they, and then it all kind of clicks, you know, what her, her job was. Um, and so, um, yeah. And, and, uh,

And my sister listens to this. I don't even know if she remembers that. That was the moment where I knew what my mom did. And then from that point forward, it's been pretty matter of fact when people ask what my mom does. I think just because of the seriousness, the seriousness with which she does her job. And and I think the conviction that she is like displays that like this is the right thing.

that it's the right thing for her to do with her life is to protect kids. And so I've actually like for years been quite proud when people ask like, what do your parents do? I'm like, oh, my mom works for child protective services. And, and basically I tell people, yeah, you know, like,

Have you ever thought about, like, there must be someone out there who has to medically assess a kid after they've been abused? And they're usually like, oh, yeah, I guess that does make sense. That's a thing that has to be done. Yeah, well, that's what my mom does. Yeah, I mean, I would imagine that you're deeply proud of your mom. Yeah. Yeah.

I think everybody is proud of their parents, you know, for the job that they do. I don't know if that's true. I don't know if that's true once you get to adulthood. I think as a child, you idolize your parents. But I mean, you are just, I think early 30s, right? I mean, you are an adult. So like the fact that I think, and I know I'm a parent, I have two little kids and I

I think if your kids admire you by the, if they still admire you, if they admire you and their kids, uh, no big deal. You're a God in their world. They don't have any reference points, but if they admire you still when they're in their thirties, then I think that that says you've done a really good job as a parent to be, to be totally frank. I think most people who, um,

Most people have figured out that their, you know, people figure out that their parents are human beings as they're growing up. So I think actually that's not always, that's not even maybe frequently the case that people are still really proud of their parents by the time they're adults. I'll say this about sort of my adult, my respect for her and everything she does now that I'm an adult is I'm a, my job is that I'm a scientist and I am,

motivated by our sort of a family saying, which isn't unique to our family, but just that they, they're in the typical stiff upper lip sort of Midwest, I don't know, Protestant vibe of, um, from those who have much, much as expected. And, um, and I actually, it's funny as a kid, I, I rolled my eyes at that and now I kind of believe it. And I think that my, um,

I became a scientist because I wanted to, and I'm still striving toward this. I haven't achieved it yet. I want to do something that protects the environment in a way that will benefit the kids that I hope to have and the future generations. And I think that when I was a teenager...

I had the same sort of emotional motivation that I actually wanted to be a pediatrician. I thought about it really seriously to the point that I volunteered at a children's hospital. And I realized I couldn't hack it. I couldn't deal with seeing kids struggling with some of the things that they were dealing with. And so in that sense, I can't be anything but proud of her because...

I, I think of it like she takes this same motivation that all of us have in our family and does it in a way that not everyone can handle, you know, protecting kids from something as, as hard to, it's, I don't like, I don't ever want to demonize any parents who are

in these situations where they have to deal with, you know, a case plan and stuff. But so I'm not, I don't, I would never call any of this like heinous or anything like that, but you know, it's, um, you're, I think she does a job that requires this, um, level of like poise and focus on like, what is really important, which is, you know, the welfare of kids, um, with a discipline that I can't

replicate, you know, and I've tried. And so that's a big part of why I continue to just deeply respect the work that she does. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's, I think part of what is going on here in this discourse is, you know, something that I've really observed with my own work over the last few years as I've gotten into

you know, work related to child abuse is that, and I by no means could ever do the job that your mom does. Like, I think I've built up a tolerance for the work that I do, but that to me would be to see that kind of suffering in children, to see, and yeah, I mean, I really appreciate that you are not

using that kind of language that demonizes people who abuse their children, because I think that, like, that does not necessarily helpful, but those, those acts are certainly heinous, right? And, and to understand that people are capable of that and to really have to look that in the face is hard. It's hard to think of

of what people are capable of. And that's something that I encounter all the time with that just disbelief about specifically the kind of abuse we talk about. But I think it's, you know, with medical child abuse, but I think it's true of all child abuse where people don't want to look at it. And I think sometimes we resent people that make us look at it. And I think that's part of, certainly not the whole explanation, but I think that's part of what

part of the sort of constellation of things that, that came together against your mom. And, you know, I think people that, that are willing to look at it are so brave. I, you know, I got a message from someone and I can't remember, it was either about some, some comment I'd made about your mom or, or some, some comment I made about, or some, some interview with Dr. Kaufman or just kind of about child abuse pediatricians. And

They said to me, you know, you should really look at whether or not those people are feeling pressure to come up with a lot of positive findings so that they can keep their jobs. And I just thought, do you live in a world where so few children are abused that someone has to drum up cases? Like, this is not a job anyone wants to exist. It's a job that has to exist. And there are those people that are brave enough to do it. And I just...

Like, I was like, I just thought that's amazing to me that someone could sort of do the math in that way, I guess, you know? Yeah, I mean, it's extraordinary, I think, how naive sometimes people are. So...

If, like me, you think, hey, I'm still young, I'm cool, I'm with it, but at the same time you find yourself needing to ask your Gen Z coworker to explain what brat means or give you the etymology of the word feminine-nomenon, it might be a sign that you, my friend, are in perimenopause. So thank goodness for the Hormone Harmony supplement from Happy Mammoth.

Now, this is a company dedicated to making women's lives easier. That means only proven science-backed ingredients. And hey, we love science on this show. Women's hormones are really a whole journey, as I can tell you after having my second baby at 40. Now, I love being in my 40s, but I do not love the mood fluctuations, the bloating, and the sleep disturbances that come along with it.

I've only been taking Hormone Harmony for two weeks, and already I've noticed a change in my mood and my sleep, which were two of my biggest issues. And seriously, go peruse the tens of thousands of rave reviews for this product. Women report this helping them with hot flashes, dry skin, better sleep, fewer sugar cravings, mood...

and just feeling more like themselves again. So for a limited time, you can get 15% off your entire first order at HappyMammoth.com. Just use the code NOBODY at checkout. That's HappyMammoth.com and use the code NOBODY for 15% off today. And remember that supporting our advertisers is a great way to support the show.

I'm Victoria Cash. Thanks for calling the Lucky Land Hotline. If you feel like you do the same thing every day, press 1. If you're ready to have some serious fun for the chance to redeem some serious prizes, press 2. We heard you loud and clear. So go to LuckyLandSlots.com right now and play over 100 social casino-style games for free. Get lucky today.

at LuckyLandSlots.com. No purchase necessary. BGW Group. Void or prohibited by law. 18 plus. Terms and conditions apply. Yeah, I mean, so you come from actually like a line of medical professionals. So your grandfather was a neurosurgeon. Is that right? That's right. Yeah. He was a neurosurgeon. Yeah, so that's... My grandfather actually was a surgeon as well. So, yeah, so I was going to ask you if you considered that a career, but you did answer that already. Yeah.

Yeah, so I'd love if you could just sort of tell us a little bit more about what your mom is like as a family person. I know, and again, if you don't want to say this, I think she might have mentioned it, but I know you have a nephew. Like, what is your mom like as a grandma? My mom, like, she restructured her, you know, her work schedule, right?

being able to spend weekly time with him, which, you know, I'm immensely jealous of in some ways. I live far away from my nephew and I wish I could see him every week. But she, I mean, she dedicates herself to these like, you know, elaborate costumes after he watches a Pixar film and wants to,

you know, play a, you know, play a lead character with, with grandma there to, you know, be the sidekick. She, she,

Okay, so is your mom crafty? Is she a crafty mom? My mom is really crafty. I think she made my sister a full dolphin costume when my sister was like four or five. Like with her combination of sewing and probably plastering and stuff. I mean, she's...

Yeah, I think she's actually getting to relive this really sort of glorious first few years of, you know, caring for a kid during their first few years when they're, like, immensely curious and exploratory and... But, you know, need a guiding hand so they don't go, you know, jumping into a lake full of alligators or something. Like, she... Yeah, I mean, the...

she's just like sort of effortlessly dedicated to that kid to the point that like I think my my sister and her brother-in-law or my brother-in-law who you know one of my very best friends like I think they actually have to like sometimes be like we need we need a day without grandma you know and yeah you know the

kids at that age have this like immense energy and fixation on the same topics over and over and over again. And like, she is just sort of tirelessly enthusiastic about all the same things that he's enthusiastic about. And so, yeah, I mean, it's really nice to have that reminder of how to be a parent to a young kid when I'm approaching that, you know, stage in my life where we're hoping to have, have kids. And so, yeah, just as a,

sort of a perfect little role model reminder of how you, how you do that. That's amazing. I feel like my mom was also a prolific and amazing maker of Halloween costumes. And so I have a five-year-old and an 18-month-old. And I,

You know, Halloween just happened as we're talking. And I had the realization to myself that that was a piece of my childhood I would probably not be reliving because I was like, oh, I, you know, I'm sorry, kid, you're probably getting Halloween costumes from Amazon because I, the time it takes to put together, it's like the idea that your mom was doing this job and was the elaborate Halloween costume maker. I mean, that's, that's some...

That's some gold medal parenting right there. But yeah, I mean, I really like, I can just see like on your face when you're talking about your mom, like, you know, I think it's such a gift, right, to have parents like that and to be

at this stage in your life when you're becoming a parent yourself or thinking about becoming a parent like that, you're really lucky if you get to look at your parents and being like, oh, they're modeling good. Like, I want to be like them. Yeah, yeah. And I think that she...

continues to be a role model in other ways and how you have adult relationships. Yeah. I mean, I think something that struck me about your mom, you know, I was fortunate enough to spend like, you know, we spent like half a day together. And I think one of the things that really struck me was she doesn't seem bitter about what's happened. I think she seems justifiably upset

angry about, but it seems to me that she's more angry about the effects she knows it's going to have. It doesn't actually sound like she's taken it, not that she hasn't taken it personally, but she doesn't have this sort of like, I mean, if I had been made the villain of a Netflix movie that tens of millions of people saw and dealt with half of the things she's dealt with, I would feel like

uh, pretty angry and bitter and personally aggrieved. And I, I didn't see that with her. And I was, I was sort of amazed by that. I just thought like, how could you go through this kind of, you know, this is, this kind of public experience is like the stuff of nightmares. And I really didn't see evidence of that. Well, I think part of what keeps her perspective stable is that

her work has always been in and around Pinellas County. There have been various, you know, stories that try to tally up how many cases she, she has dealt with, you know, somewhere around like 3000 cases and,

people love to, certain angry internet groups love to say that, well, that's like 3000 people that have, you know, had their family torn apart. And I can tell you that probably part of the reason why she's not better is because she's had a lot of kids reach out to her who have grown up and said, you know, I, um, what, you know, what can you say about like, thanks for probably saving my life. And, um,

You know, I think with that in mind, I think this is a small blip relative to all the times that she's heard, you know, young adults, people who are like finally out on their own and have gotten free of some sort of abusive or neglectful situation and tell her that, you know, that they actually have some sort of future because of that intervention. So, yeah.

I'm not surprised that she, you know, sure, I bet there's a lot of, you know, just negative feelings toward Greg Anderson, people that took this as a... I think she can probably join the club there, but yeah, sorry. I think there's...

that's the only people that she feels negatively towards. I mean, you know, as much as in, in my discussions with her since that film came out, like we've, I'm always, I try to be really respectful of, like I said, of like the families, the struggle that the family has gone through. Like, I mean, I can't imagine growing up or with this hanging over your head or dealing with the situation, but like,

I think like every conversation I have with my mom, even after being dragged through the mud by, you know, a Netflix film, like she ends those conversations talking about like her worry about what those kids will go through as they become young adults. And I'm not surprised that that's how she ends the conversation because that's like what her motivation has always been.

I really thought, you know, as I've been metabolizing this conversation for the last week and a half, I just thought, like, you know, there's something to be said about, like, true character being, like, you're going to do the right thing, even if everyone hates you for it. And you're going to stand by those actions because you know it was the right thing. And that's really what I got from your mom. And, like, that is, I'm like, okay, I mean, I feel like you're honestly, like, I'm not, like, your mom is a role model for me now. I mean, I just, I, like...

I admire her so much and I think like whatever, you know, I think sometimes people have taken her certainty about her, what her work is to be arrogance. And I did not. Talking to her for three hours, I've had numerous conversations with her since then. I don't.

I don't see it. And I mean, I'm also from a medical family. Like I'm a woman who's gone to the doctor many times. Like I understand doctors can be extremely arrogant. Like we, it's not, it's not that that, that archetype doesn't exist, but I, I don't, I think her certainty is that she believes in the facts and she believes in her training and that she has a great conviction about what her work means. I mean, that's,

That's what I observed. She didn't seem real, I don't know, I guess it's just so straight. She didn't seem defensive. She didn't seem like she wanted to self-aggrandize in any way or like, which I mean, I think after that kind of, you know, internet experience, like, you know, or her experience of harassment, I keep saying internet, but it's not just been the internet. I mean, there's been, you know, there are police reports because of

People threatening to show up at the clinic where she works and people calling and calling and calling the clinic. And she's, when she told us about those experiences and, you know, talking about Viviana Graham, who's one of the moms from the film who talked about sending her this Christmas card every year and, you know,

She, you know, she was like, they send it to my pediatric practice. Your mom's always had the work of being the CPT and then being just a pediatrician, like a, you know, regular seeing kids, healthy kids and all that. And she really resents people sending that to her office there because then her coworkers have to deal with it. And that's what she talked about. She didn't say...

And I'm sure she is mad. She's rightfully mad. I'm not trying to paint her as a saint that has no... But, you know, whatever. I'm not... But I just... I was very struck by that. Yeah, she's like... She doesn't... She also, like, I think she seems to accept the nature of her job and the way that that's going to make people angry and doesn't want that spilling out over onto her co-workers that are, you know, working in a pediatrics office. And, yeah. I mean...

I feel like in some ways this has probably been harder emotionally on you in a lot of ways. Just because, I mean, I can't imagine watching someone do this to my mom. I mean, I'm very close to my mom also. And I really, I mean, this, like, how is this? You talked a little bit about this already, but I mean, what, this must have taken such a toll on you. Well, you know, I have worried over the last six months or so

about how this has actually sort of cascaded out from me to affect my wife. I think she's had to deal with me at a time when I'm pretty emotionally tightly wound. And for a few months, when we were unsure of how big this was,

Netflix funded wave of, of anger would, would get. I was worried about, you know, arson at her house. I woke up, um, for, I can't count how many times I've woken up from dreams where either I'm there or someone calls me and tells me that she's been killed and I, you know, wake up and throw up. Um, yeah, I mean, it's, uh,

It's gotten to the point where I, and I mean, you know, like fortunately it's died down a bit, but stupid things like people found the, you know, my wedding album on Facebook and started posting comments about like that. I was lucky to get away from my monster of a mother, you know, like it's just things like this where you, and again, I want to make clear, like I'm not, I'm not minimizing the struggle that,

I think that Maya and Kyle have been through, like it's, it's a nightmare that they've lived through and mine doesn't add up to that, you know, but, but it just, it's been a, it's weird to have that sort of just online mob thing.

Um, that takes a certain glee in, um, just like a small twisting of the knife every, every now and then at an unsuspecting time. And to the, to the point that, you know, you start to mentally break a bit, you're like, how long does this go on? Um, does this ever really end? Um, but yeah, um, has, um, yeah, certainly led to a lot of conversations about, you know, what sort of

therapy needs to happen. How, what is a way to deal with, um, with the stress and the idea of a sort of constant potentially violent threat. But, uh, yeah. Um, and, and I mean, credit to my mom. I think she has played as she's dealing with all of this herself. She has been one of the people that I've leaned on of like, how to, how do I, um,

handle this, um, these emotions, um, these feelings of almost like a fight or flight, you know, um, lizard brain reaction to it all. Um, so, um, yeah, I mean, I, I don't know. I would, I would, I'm not, I don't ever want to make it seem like I'm, um,

quantifying whatever I've gone through as being on the same scale as either my mom or the Kowalski family. Everyone's been through pretty awful experience, but

But yeah, it does really make me worry for humanity that like this seems to be an activity that a lot of people enjoy doing is like taking a movie because it really is a movie and thinking that that represents real life. You may have noticed we do not refer to it as a documentary on this show. And they take that and see it as a call to action. You know, there's getting sort of dangerously close to some sort of vigilante justice situation.

But it's not what a liberal democratic society is built on. Yeah, no, I, you know, and I appreciate like, as you've mentioned several times, you know, and of course, you know, this has been an interesting conversation.

couple of months for me because I, nothing like anything that you're, you know, but like, I'm like, okay, we're officially avoiding Googling our name these days. You know, and, and like being aware that some people have these feelings about, about me and that think I'm really doing something awful. And, you know, I, I think that it is, it's sort of, it's confusing. And I,

Also the idea that I am against Maya and Kyle. To be totally frank, my opinion of Jack Kowalski, as I've watched the trial, as I've learned all of these things, as I've seen these communications that he was part of, my opinion of him, better not said. But the kids, I am so worried about the kids and I am not against them.

If all of this money were going to that, I mean, the amount of money is ludicrous, but if it was going to Maya and Kyle and Jack and Gregory Anderson were getting none of it, I think I would actually feel quite a bit differently. But I think your mom saved Maya's life. That's the only conclusion I can come to after having read all of this, all the medications, Beata's communications. This was not going in a good direction. It wasn't. It's so parallel to

to something like the Olivia Gantt case, the Danita Tuck case. I don't know what the people who are detractors of what I'm saying, pointing out those things, I don't know what they think was going to happen if she was allowed to leave the hospital. And if they had let them leave the hospital and she died, what would they be saying about the hospital and your mom then? And I think it's people's either don't know the truth or...

absolute refusal to grasp that what was at stake. And I don't think it's good for Maya and Jack to believe that a bunch of people were in a conspiracy out to get them. And I don't think it's good for Maya to believe that she's this sick girl that's not capable, et cetera, et cetera. I don't think any of those things are good. And I don't think that

a six plus year revenge journey is doing anyone any good. So it's like, you can hold compassion for the kids especially and for what the family's been through

And the fact of having to experience your mother's death by suicide is horrible. You can hold compassion for all of that and still acknowledge the truth of the case. Like those things are not mutually exclusive. And I would argue that you're not, it's no favor to these kids not to acknowledge that. Well, and to your point about the conspiracy side of it all, you know, I think that

There have been sort of, there have been pretty dubious constellations made out of the individual points in this case and people sort of drawing patterns, you know, for instance, about like some sort of quota that like a CPS, you know, medical director has or something like that. I mean, I can tell you if there's, if there's any,

If there's any logic to this, let's just walk through this. So I, as an adult, as you've said, I have sort of a... Separate from just the deep love I have for my mother, I have a deep respect for the work that she does. And...

That is partly born out of, like, when I was, you know, a teenager. And, like, I just remember, like, being... I was playing soccer at, you know, a fairly competitive level and, like, often...

or maybe not often, but there was, there were no shortage of times where she would miss a game or something. And it was because I would learn later, like she was, you know, doing a medical exam for a kid who had been, had had their skull cracked by their, by their parent or who had, you know, in rare cases, you know, dealing with medical child abuse or, um, I mean, it comes in all sorts of forms, but, um,

you know, she is an extremely attentive parent and she sacrificed a lot, a lot of school events, a lot of like school concerts and soccer games and birthday parties and stuff to go look at like the worst thing that you can look at. And, um, and I, you know, we, we certainly had a stable, you know, family income growing up, but like,

She did that for years without a raise, you know? Like there was, her salary stayed the same for like, I don't know, a decade? Like, you know, and you would hope that you'd at least get a cost of living raise, you know, in that time. But just there's, I don't really know what else to say to the claims that there's some financial incentive or like a sick ego incentive, you know? Like she'd come back at,

like late at night, just kind of like broken sometimes by what she had seen. And like, and I get that some, I get that some people who are affected by this and feel that they've been unfairly, you know, identified as, um,

someone in need of help in how they parent their kids. I get that that's a really stressful experience and that maybe that's like the, the shortest line you can draw between two points of like, well, this person must have some motivation. They must be getting something out of it. It, it lines right up with the like, why are cops giving out speeding tickets? It's like, Oh, they must have a quota that they have to hit for the, for the month. Um, I mean, if, if,

if that was the motivation, well, she didn't get money out of it. She didn't get, she didn't get more time with her kids. Um, she sacrificed a lot to, you know, deal with this topic for decades. And, uh, I don't, if people don't believe that, that's fine. Um, but, um, maybe they should at least hear somebody in her immediate family say that like,

all of us kind of bore a bit of a sacrifice because of this job when we were growing up. And I can't change anybody's mind about it, but it should be said. Yeah. I mean, and I think, you know, I heard from, and I'll definitely mention the episode because I, she asked if I could mention it. I just heard from someone, you know, that she has, that she was a lawyer, which is a family court lawyer for years in Pinellas County. And she said,

had really good things to say about your mom. And she said, I remembered a whole bunch of times she would testify on behalf of a kid and not charge because, you know, and yeah, I mean, and even if it was for some ego thing, it's like, well, your mom wasn't out there seeking press for being this amazing doctor. She did not want to be in the press, right? It's like, I don't, I think if someone had those motivations, you would see evidence of them. That's the thing.

Right. Like there'd be some trail, some paper trail there of, you know, we know it when we see it. Yeah. I mean, it's it's I my position is that the truth still matters, even if people I know there's going to be people that discount everything you say, everything I say. But it's not everyone. Right.

And there are a lot of people that watch this movie that just have no idea about the facts in this case. And I think, you know, you had said this thing earlier about how this broke your brain in terms of experiencing media. I think for me and actually for the entire team here, as we've made this season and sort of, you know, unthreaded everything in this documentary, having all watched it months ago and now poured over the transcript many times, um,

When you realize how there's just nothing to it, it's so thin. And it sort of made me go, oh my God, like how many podcasts or documentaries or whatever have I consumed and just been like, well, that's true. So this is a true story. So this person must have done their due diligence. They must have talked to both sides. They must have documentation. They must have blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And now we realize...

That's not true. You actually can just put something that bears almost no relation to the truth and Netflix will buy it because it's an emotional story that's going to inspire outrage. And that is a currency and that is real. And I don't think...

I just will never look at anything the same way. And that part is hard to sort of, you're like, oh, it has shifted my worldview. You know, but I think it's like you still have to try, right? You still have to try and get the truth out there. And I think it's so, you know, something that there's like, it's a real setup here with doctors where they can't talk in the media and they can't respond and they can't speak out for themselves. So, yeah.

You know, we don't, we think of doctors as powerful people, but actually they're incredibly vulnerable when it comes to this kind of coverage. And so I think there are a lot of people that just are swallowing the narrative that they're given, much like I'm sure I have. It's not just because they're dummies, you know, or like not capable of critical thinking. And I think that this will mean a lot to people to hear from you. So, yeah.

Did you know that I have a new book coming out? True Story. And unlike my previous books, this one actually is a true story. The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, which I co-authored with friend of the show, Detective Mike Weber, chronicles three of his most harrowing and impactful cases—

Longtime listeners of the show will have some familiarity with these cases, but I promise you will learn so much more about them, and you'll also just learn so much more about Detective Mike's journey in this arena and also mine. Dr. Mark Feldman, another friend of the show and an esteemed expert in all things Munchausen by proxy, read an early copy, and this is what he had to say about it.

A truly vital, groundbreaking, and riveting contribution to the true crime literature on child abuse. Over the past four decades, I have read just about everything dealing with medical deception, including Munchausen by proxy abuse, and can easily affirm that this immensely readable book is the most important literary work since Professor Rory Meadow coined the Munchausen by proxy term 50 years ago.

And if you don't think that that endorsement from that particular man made me cry, you would be wrong. So the book comes out on February 4th of next year, and now I know what you're thinking. Andrea, why are you talking to me about this right now? February is approximately 100 years from now. We have to do a whole election and whatever else before then. And I hear you, but I'm telling you this now because, as you may know if you have any other authors in your life, pre-orders are—

are vital to a book's success and will really affect how our publisher positions and supports the book's launch. So if you think you are going to buy this book, doing so now will really help us out. It's available for pre-order in all formats wherever books are sold, and you can find it at a link in the show notes. I hope you will love it, and I appreciate your support. I just wanted to ask you kind of as like a final question, what do you...

want people, like, what do you most want people to know about your mom? I guess I would, I would want them to know that, you know, when, when you get a family together and you talk about something like this that's happening in your life, you know, we just had Thanksgiving. We all got together and wanted to check in on my mom and how she's doing. You know, people get animated and they will have a lot to say and they'll, they'll say their, their worst moments.

uh, you know, they're, they're, they're least generous ideas if they're angry about the world. And even in that environment, even like, no matter what, like, as you said, she is, um, she's not bitter at the, at the way that this has shook out. I, you know, you can just sort of, she, she hangs her hat on the knowledge that like a lot of

children are alive because of her. And I get that one slickly edited film makes it seem like one of those cases is dubious, but like there are so many kids that grew up in panels County that are alive because of her. And, um, and it's really, you know, in cases that I, where they've reached out to her and said as much, you know, I think there's, um,

yeah, that doesn't, that doesn't sell as a Netflix movie, but, um, but even in these closed conversations that would never, you know, that would be in, you know, in our, at our kitchen table, I'm kind of stunned that you can't get a rise out of her. You can't get like a

Can't get a negative thing from her about this. She's not going to rant even a couple glasses of wine at Thanksgiving when most of us would rant about, you know, someone getting a parking ticket, right? Yeah, because I think it's, she doesn't see this as, it's not that she's motivated to do this. It's not that she loves this job. It's that she sees it as something she had to do, right? Yeah.

for, I guess, you know, in her testimony, I think she said that she was interested in it all because after going through a, um, you know, in her, um, in her internship, having some exposure to this topic, but like, it's, um, I think that's why she's so sort of solemn when she does this work is that she sees it as like, sort of a, uh, I'm not religious, but like, I think, uh, you know, uh, sort of a higher calling to do it. Um,

Knowing that it's the right thing to do, even if you have to face a horrible trial. I mean that in the sense of the trials of life, not a legal trial. But yeah, she is, through to her core, understands why this family has felt the way that they do. But that still was the right thing to do. Yeah, I mean...

Yeah, I absolutely like, I see that in talking to her and it's really had such, it's really had such an effect on me. You know, and when we talked to like Detective Mike Weber, and I think even for me, you know, like, and again, I'm not comparing my job to hers by any stretch of the imagination, but like sometimes you are, sometimes you realize that there is something that needs to be done that you can take on in a way that maybe other people can't.

And it's not because like, oh, wow, this is the most fun. It's because it feels purposeful. And there's a drive to do something where you are uniquely sort of made to do it. And I mean, talking to her mom, you know, it sounds like she had a mentor that really saw that in her. And, you know, and I mean, that's a powerful thing. And we shouldn't make the cost for doing the right thing so high. Well, is there anything else that you want to say while we have you?

In some ways, I'm really, I am thankful for some aspects of all of this happening. I am so glad that I became aware of this show. You know, my mom's career is over in this space. She can't contribute to this really important cause anymore as a medical director, but she

This show, I think, is like... There will probably be kids that survive because of this. So whatever vitriol you all receive, I hope you know that it's... You're not just doing it for the same reason, but you're doing it for the same impact. Even if there's one doctor out there who...

realizes because they're exposed to the show like oh maybe I should revisit this one case that I'm stumped by and they realize that it's a potentially fatal you know instance of medical child abuse I mean that's worth it right so so thank you all for the work that you're doing I um I'm glad that I became aware of this show I'm I'm a little uh thank you so much for saying that

And, yeah, like I have to say, you know, I am aware of what the discourse is. And, you know, there's some scary people who have it out for your mom. And I'm sure I'm going to hear from a few of them. And, you know, when we're walking out of your mom's house, I was like, bring it. Because, like, I've never been so sure I'm on the right side of something. And I think it is worth it to stand up for yourself.

your mom and everything she represents in this case. And it's much bigger than this family and your mom and me. And like, we all understand the impact here. And I just like, I am very grateful to have had you, you know, to have made the connection with you too. I really, you know, so just thank you. I mean, I, I, I'm so grateful that you got in touch and, and brought,

your mom, you know, got your mom on the show. Like, I know she talked to me because of you, you know? And she said as much, she's like, well, Pat put in a good word for you. That helped. And I was like, yes, you know? And it's, it's like, to me, this is, this is like a once in a lifetime chance to, to, to help right a wrong. And I hope as many people, I hope if people ever listen to anything on this show, I hope they, they listen to this. So thank you so much for being with us, Pat. Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, keep up the work. Thank you. And we'll be in touch, obviously. I hope I get to meet you in real life sometime. Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah. I hope so too.