Heartbreak Glitch Loop with Brandy Jensen
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I'm Eric Glass. On This American Life, we tell real-life stories, really good ones. My mother said, I'm sorry you weren't here because Father Sager was here visiting and he found a very nice orphanage for you. And I said, but I'm not an orphan. Surprising stories every week, This American Life. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. ♪

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I know that strikes fear into the hearts of so many of you.

But don't worry. If you've been listening to the past few episodes or following us on Instagram, then you know there is a way for you to get more normal gossip in your life. Because this September, Ciara and I are bringing normal gossip to nine different cities. We are stopping in New York, Boston, Seattle, Portland, Oregon, Denver, Dallas, Austin, Chicago, and Minneapolis.

Tickets went on sale to the public on Friday, May 9th. So that means if you are listening right now in this moment and live in any of those cities or near them, I don't know, maybe you want to do a road trip. Decide. But first, buy a ticket immediately at normalgossiplive.com. Every show has exclusive VIP tickets that include a meet and greet with Ciara and I. So I hope you're all workshopping what delicious little bits of gossip are going to bring us.

I know we're like four months out, which is very early, but I have heard a little rumor through the grapevine that Minneapolis, Boston, and Portland are selling particularly fast. So if you've been thinking about buying a ticket in any of those cities, I would do it soon.

Also, for those of y'all who are not living in those cities and still want more gossip, there will be bonus episodes between the seasons that have some delectable morsels of gossip for you to gnaw on. So have no fear. We are benevolent queens here at this show.

That is all the housekeeping for today. Now, on to the gossip. Today, I'm so excited to be joined by none other than the one, the only, Brandi Jensen. Brandi is a culture editor at Defector, and for the past few months, she has been filling in for our beloved Justin Ellis while he is out on parental leave, which means Brandi has had a behind-the-scenes look at how the gossip gets made. But before

Foytia came to the factor. Brandy has worked at literally every single cool publication that has ever existed, including The Outline, rest in peace, Gawker 2.0, rest in peace as well, and Jezebel.

I think that one's still going technically. I'm going to say rest in peace just in case. Brandy was also recently nominated for an American Society Magazine Editor's Award for an essay she wrote for the Yale Review called The Polly Crisis, which we will link in the show notes. It's such a good essay. All to say, Brandy's pretty fucking cool, and I know y'all are going to love her.

Brandy, hello. Thank you so much for joining me. Hi, I'm so excited to be here. Fun, fun little story. So years and years ago, when Kelsey first got the idea for this podcast, I thought it was great. And I told her I would love to be a guest sometime. And she was like, Oh my god, yes, we would love to have you on. Guess who never got invited? All seven seasons. Oh, wow.

my god I think this is the first episode that started with a call out yes thank you that's yeah we're coming in hot today Kelsey

Well, I am honored to have you here. My first question is going to be, what's your relationship to gossip? But my second one was going to be, do you feel like working on normal gossip as an editor has changed that relationship at all? Yes, I have come to realize that it is immoral. It is unethical. You imperil your very soul by taking part in... No, no, I'm kidding. Okay.

You're like, this is the devil's juice. I'm telling you, I'm out here having to do like good works to make up for the fact that I've come in and be involved in this show. It's a heathen endeavor. No, no, no, I'm kidding, of course. I've always thought gossip is fun. Now I do sort of think that gossip is work, but it's still fun. Yeah.

As an adult, I am able to, you know, exercise judgment and discernment about when gossip is fun and harmless and when I might be edging into territory that I or others are going to feel bad about. So, yeah, I think it's good to do and be a grown up about.

I also just think that we end up hollowing out some of what makes pleasurable things pleasurable by insisting that they are also good for us, right? Sometimes I like doing something because I know it's a little bit bad for me. Yes, I want to jump out the plane because I think I might die, not because I know I'm going to land safely. Wait, are you a skydiver?

Oh, my dream for my next birthday. I think I'm going to go skydiving for the first time. I've wanted to jump out of a plane since I was like 11. And saying that out loud makes me concerned about myself. But yeah. Yeah, no, no skydiving for me. Cigarettes, yes. Occasional recreational drug use, yes. Jumping out of a plane, less so. Although I guess I probably, yeah, I would do it.

If you invited me to your skydiving birthday, I'd be like, all right, I'll jump out of a plane for Rachel. Well, now I know who I'm inviting because most of my friends are like, I will wait for you on the ground. I will wave, but I'm not getting up there. So now I know that you're a true friend. Always. I will put my very body on the line.

So now I know you're a true friend. And like all true friends, you've brought me gossip. A little birdie told me that you've got a story for me. I do. This is something that happened to a friend of mine. Let's call him James a few years ago. James loves to host a party. He's one of those people that has many disparate sort of friend groups. He's always like joining a class.

doing something new, meeting new people. So he had a milestone birthday a few years ago, and he decides that he is going to use this as an excuse to bring all of his friend groups together, introduce his grad school friends, his work friends,

his one hometown friend because James grew up a little gay boy in a small town in the south so he doesn't have a lot of hometown friends he's got one hometown friend a lovely woman who unfortunately is saddled with a boyfriend who sucks

Oh, no. Many such cases. This boyfriend sucks in a particular way. Has never seemed particularly comfortable around James and all of James's other gay friends. He's boring. He seems, you know, very uptight. He kind of, you know, doesn't really participate. He never does karaoke. He's never he's never, you know, like joining in the fun.

He's a real stick in the mud. And, you know, we're questioning his politics. But whatever, that's fine. The boyfriend can come. Everyone's invited, including one of James's newer friends, who is a guy that he had been out on a few dates with, but they decided they were better as friends. This guy, opposite of the boyfriend who sucks, life of the party, everybody loves him, just brightens up every single room he enters.

So James is like, great, great group of people. You know, I don't have to be on the whole time because I've got other friends who can sort of carry the day. So night of the party, you know, vibes are pretty good. Hometown friend is having a good time. Boyfriend who sucks, predictably sucks. He's in the corner. He's like sulking. He's sullen. He's not really engaged with anybody. That's such a crazy vibe to bring to a party. To a party. I know. Fake it.

Or just stay home, man. Don't ruin it for the rest of us, right? I don't want your, like, you know, you got like a little, like, stink cloud of energy coming off of you just wafting into the room. The bad vibes are just radiating off of you. No, I don't like that. Yeah, so, but that was expected. What we did not expect is for new friend, life of the party friend, to not be the life of the party at all. He's acting like

Very strange, very quiet, not really engaging. James is like, huh, maybe I shouldn't have invited him to like my milestone birthday. We're still sort of new friends. Like maybe, maybe he's worried that I actually do want a romantic relationship that I've like, you know, taken this a step too far. I don't know.

He leaves early the next day. James is like, I just wanted to check in, make sure everything's OK. And he's like, yeah, it's fine. I just wasn't feeling that well. You know, sorry. Yeah. Things go back to normal the next time they hang out. It's like, all right, I guess I was just a blip.

Cut to a few months later and James is like, oh my God, gossip, drama, you'll never believe it. My hometown friend finally dumped her shitty boyfriend. Hooray. And life of the party friend is like, oh my fucking God. Thank God I can finally tell you why I was being so weird at your party. It's because...

I recognize that guy from hooking up with him on Grindr last night. The night before the party? The very prior evening. The night before the party. To which James is like, well, okay, shocking, but also less shocking given that I found out they broke up because she walked in on him with some dude. Oh my god. Randy, that is...

The layers. I do also have a postscript. I have a postscript, which is that a hometown friend got a different, much better, much more fun, possibly bisexual, the way to go, boyfriend. Yeah. And the other guy is still in a small town in the south. Where he belongs. Married to a woman. Whoa. Going to church, you know, sort of wearing his, like, pastel polo shirts. Like, you know the type. I...

I can see this man so clearly. I'm picturing specifically Reverend Newland from True Blood.

Oh my god. Brandy! Wow. I mean, I was gonna say, I'm sad that your friend got his party kind of ruined, but this is a perfect end to a party. Listen, this is always my take whenever anything, like, vaguely disastrous happens to me, is that I'm always so grateful that I get a story out of it. Because, man, I, like, I eat out on the stories of the weird shit that has happened to me in my life. Even...

At this point, while it's happening, you know, I'm like, I'm like getting dumped by the married polyamorous philosophy professor who I thought like was my one true love. And in my head, I'm like, okay, this is at least a fun story. Unfortunately, from my

married polyamorous philosophy professor I really thought that that was it for me like that was man this was meant to be you deserve a philosophy professor who can be in game for you listen you deserve a philosophy professor derogatory something I would say to somebody I don't really care for frankly

I would never say it like that. I only want the best philosophy for you. That was great gossip. And now I have some for you. I cannot wait. I'm locked in.

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Today, our story takes place in the outer banks of North Carolina in a small and incredibly wealthy seaside village. White Lotus. Love it. Exactly. For the purposes of this story, we're going to be calling it Sand Dollar Cove. Okay. Which is also the name of a 2021 Hallmark movie starring Chad Michael Murray, because I appreciate art. Anyway, I could talk about this forever. Um...

For a long time, Sand Dollar Cove was just like a place for well-off retirees. But things started to change in the late 90s. And eventually it would become something closer to like West Palm Beach or the Hamptons. But our story takes place in the early aughts. So that change isn't quite complete, but it is definitely happening. Okay. So we've got like an old guard new money maybe sort of tension happening? Yes. All right. Love it.

Have you ever lived in a place like this, like a place that was in the middle of a big demographic change? No, I like to swoop in after that's already happened so I don't have to feel guilty about it. I don't want to be part of the problem. I just want to benefit from living in a neighborhood with a fancy snack place. That is so understandable and I think ethical. I think you're doing it correctly. Thank you. I try. Today, our friend of a friend is named Tony.

And Tony is in his mid-40s. Tony doesn't live in Sand Dollar Cove, even when it was for retirees. It was like a little too bougie for him. He lives like an hour away.

And Tony's the kind of guy who tells everyone to call him Uncle Tony. Ew, I'm not sure I like that. I don't. It's not in like a mobster way. Okay. I'm cautious about Uncle Tony, but continue, continue. But Uncle Tony just never had kids, so he tries to make up for it by being everyone's uncle. This is not helping to ease my concerns about Uncle Tony, right?

And yet, go on. Well, Uncle Tony doesn't have a ton of family, but he has like so, so many friends, including one named Tammy. Okay. Is she Auntie Tammy?

Well, Tammy and Tony go way back. They had met in the mid-70s in a roller rink in Raleigh, and they have been tight ever since. So Tammy's kids actually think Uncle Tony is their uncle. Okay, all right. Do you have any friends like this whose kids know you or, like, will know you as Aunt Brandy? Um, I have friends with kids. I don't know that I've necessarily achieved Aunt Brandy level with any of them, um, outside of my two actual legal nephews. Oh!

Yeah, those definitely count. Tammy had actually moved really far away, like a few years before our story starts. But despite like the thousands of miles between them, Tammy and Tony have remained super tight. So when Tammy calls Tony one day to ask him for a favor, Tony knows he's going to say yes before she even tells him what the favor is. Love that. Love having a friend like that.

Yeah. Tony's a good guy, even if he does make everyone call him Uncle Tony. Okay. All right. I'm warming up to Uncle Tony. I still don't know that I would call him that. I think I would go the other direction and just refer to him as Anthony, always. I think Uncle Tony would really like that. I think he'd be charmed by that.

Tammy's grandmother had recently passed and she willed to Tammy a rental property in Sand Dollar Cove. There's already a tenant on the property who has lived there since the early 90s. And Tammy has no desire to do like a big renovation or even try to find a new tenant. She just needs someone to look at the property and figure out what kind of state it's in. And she's like, could Tony do that? And Tony's like, yeah, of course.

Tammy's like, thank you so much. You're the best. And she tells him, I'll email you all the information I have about the tenant. Tammy tells Tony that the tenant's name is Foxy. Amazing. Ideal tenant already. Who doesn't want to get a rent check every month from somebody named Foxy?

It would brighten my day. Foxy has lived in Tammy's grandmother's house for 15 years now. Foxy is a retired nurse, and this is all the information Uncle Tony has about her. What more do you need? Foxy, the retired nurse, love, icon, queen. Do you have any concerns so far? I'm concerned that he's still going by Uncle Tony, but other than that, no. I'm all in. Unfortunately, that concern...

We'll continue for the rest of the story. I'll set it aside. I'll just put a pin in that for now. I've done the work. Yeah. I've taken some three reflective breaths and I have come to accept that

That this is just his name. Okay. Yes, exactly. So the next day, Uncle Tony drives to Sand Dollar Cove, which has that, you know, weird look that cities that are in the middle of gentrification have, where you have like rundown houses that are full of character right next to soulless gray glass boxes. Yes, I am familiar. Yeah.

The property that Tammy inherited still has character. It is a very standard North Carolina beach house. It's got a big deck. It's got white trim. But even before Uncle Tony gets out of the truck, he can tell that the house has not exactly been well-maintained. Well, Foxy's got a life to live, you know? Exactly. That's not her property. Yeah, I'm not doing maintenance on a rental. No. No. No.

Like a few of the storm shutters are hanging off their hinges. The deck's got a hole in it and the fence is absolutely covered in kudzu. Okay.

The house closest to Tammy's is one of the soulless gray glass boxes. Oh, so they're going to hate living next to something that they consider an eyesore because they're terrible people. I can tell already. Anybody who wants to... When you move to a place with personality and you live in a giant white box, you are not somebody that I'm going to get along with. Well, it's also got a hot tub on the deck, if that changes your opinion, and a red Ferrari in the driveway.

Oh, okay. All right. I mean, none of that makes you feel any better about the neighbor. No, no. We got some like somebody who watches Wolf of Wall Street and thinks like that should be me. Oh, and this is back when you could get Quaaludes.

If you were to take a guess at what kind of woman Foxy is, what would you guess? Oh, retired nurse who moved to the beach named Foxy. I'm guessing she is wonderful. She's a little kooky. I'm thinking she makes a mean margarita. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I see it. Foxy's front porch is covered in like wind chimes and sun catchers. Love it.

When she opens the door, she's got on this billowing linen caftan and no shoes. Well, why would she be wearing shoes in her own house? She shouldn't. Exactly.

She looks to be in her mid to late 50s. She's got long, dark hair and a gray streak at her temple. Like, it's giving Stacey London, which is exactly how I want to go gray. Iconic. I wish if I had one of those, I would take advantage of it. Unfortunately, it hasn't happened for me yet, but... There's still time. Yeah. There's nothing but time, actually. Well,

The longer I wait, the higher the chances. Although I don't think it would come in as just a streak at this point. I think it would more be like a sort of, I stopped dyeing my hair and see what happens. I love that look too. Foxy immediately offers Uncle Tony a glass of sweet tea. And Uncle Tony is the kind of guy to never turn down a glass of sweet tea. So he follows her inside and watches as she goes through an extremely elaborate tea serving ritual. Hmm.

Like, first, Foxy decants the sweet pea into a crystal jug. She tells Tony that tea, like most things, needs room to breathe. You know what? Listen, when Uncle Tony visits the house, you know, you bring out the formal stuff, right? That's Uncle Tony! Yes!

Pull the carpet out for her. Bring out the good crystal for Uncle Tony. Exactly. Exactly. After the tea is decanted, she pours it into two glasses with ice, but she pours it from like really high up. Like, you remember that guy who went viral for sprinkling salt? Like, from really high. Salt Bae? How could I forget Salt Bae? With his like weird little, didn't he have weird little glasses? Yes. I had a lot of questions.

But that's kind of what this is giving. And Foxy explains that this maneuver encourages the drinker of the sweet tea to embody their highest self. Okay. How would you react to this? I'm drinking the tea and I'm going with the flow. I'm listening to the wind chimes. I've kicked my shoes off already. And I am starting to talk shit about the guy next door with the stupid Ferrari. That's what I'm doing. You and Uncle Tony are actually on the exact same wavelength. Okay.

One thing I forgot to mention about him is that our man is a huge gossip. He lives for the drama. Okay. Love him. And because he's so friendly, people kind of just tend to open up to him. And if there's anything Uncle Tony knows, it's that eccentric women in their 50s are the best sources of both drama and gossip. So he's kind of just along for the ride. Okay. Yeah. All right. Tony can hang.

Okay. Are you calling him Uncle Tony? But, you know, maybe. Maybe. Maybe by the end of the story. Also, Uncle Tony can tell that Foxy has done a really good job with taking care of Tammy's grandmother's place. Like, it needs a coat of paint, but it's very clean and well-decorated. And when Foxy gives Uncle Tony a download on the property, the issues that she mentions are all very much not her fault.

She's like, the toilet bowl takes forever to fill. The gutters haven't been cleaned in years. There's a leak in the attic. The screen on the back door needs to be replaced. But she's like, in all the important ways, this house is still a great place to live. And then Foxy's like, the neighborhood, on the other hand, it's going downhill.

Our girls got a lot to say about the direction the neighborhood is going. And Uncle Tony's got a free afternoon. So the two gap for a bit. And at some point they go from iced tea to Chardonnay, which Tony cannot help noticing doesn't go through the elaborate decanting ritual. Getting that Chardonnay straight out of the box in the fridge. As the good Lord intended.

Finally, even though he's having a great time, Uncle Tony is like, I should do the job I came here to do. And Foxy's like, you're so right. I'll stop distracting you. And then she's like, you seem like a man of discerning taste. And from some invisible pocket in her billowing linen caftan, Foxy pulls out a business card.

And the business card has her name and a link, which Foxy says goes to her blog. All right. See, for a second there, I was thinking she's making a play to become Aunt Foxy. But OK, now I'm wondering if it's some sort of like multi-level marketing scheme. What is going on? Well, do you check out the blog? Obviously. I'm opening my phone on the way out the door, typing in that, you know, FoxyThotsey.com.

Again, you and Uncle Tony are on the same wavelength. He is dying to check out this blog, but it's the early aughts, so he has to wait until he gets home. Man, we really used to live like that. Crazy. Crazy. I know! We used to have to wait.

So Tony does his little inspection and calls Tammy on the way home. And he's like, the house is certainly not unlivable, but it definitely needs some work. And he runs down the list of repairs the house needs. And Tammy's like, that's what I figured. It's been at least a decade since anyone checked on it. And so she asked Uncle Tony for another favor. Tammy's grandmother hadn't just left her the house. She'd also left a little bit of money to fix the place up. But Tammy is thousands of miles away.

She's like, I need someone I trust to oversee the repairs. Tony the contractor now? That's good a favor. But, okay. Yeah, she's like, I know it's a big ask, but would you mind just sort of checking in every so often to see how the repairs are going? Your friend is basically asking you to be an unofficial property manager. Okay.

Do you say yes? I say yes, because then you get to hang out and drink Chardonnay with Foxy every once in a while, which sounds like a fun way to spend an afternoon anyway. So yeah, I would say yes. I mean, I'm very much a, you know, I will do things for my friends that I won't do for myself. Exactly. Exactly. Uncle Tony doesn't have like a ton of free time. He's an electrician and he has his own company to run.

But Uncle Tony's the kind of person who would do anything for a friend, especially a lifelong friend like Tammy. And Tammy had bailed him out a few years ago when he had gone on a bit of a bender after a really bad breakup. Oh, no. Yeah. Not sad, Tony. Sad Uncle Tony. And again, you and Tony, same wavelength. Because now that Uncle Tony's met Foxy, he's like, she's not going to cause me any issues. And also...

I'm going to at least get some sweet tea and gossip out of this. So he's like, of course, I'll do it. Smart man. I've said from the beginning.

That I respect Uncle Tony, all aspects of his deal. No, I have no idea what you're talking about. I think I said from the beginning that I love every decision Uncle Tony has made. And you're right. From the beginning, you supported that man 10 toes down. This, this...

This is all important because now Uncle Tony knows for sure that he's going to see Foxy again. So it is with this knowledge that he finally pulls up her blog, which is called The Rituals of Life. Okay.

It's all about the various rituals that Foxy claims one needs to live a harmonious and balanced life. I'm listening. Are you a person who enjoys like rituals or routines? Like how long can you stick to a routine? Not long. I'm not. I am not a person who's really good at follow through. And also, here's the thing. A routine I'm okay with.

I'm calling something a ritual is going to sort of get my back up a little bit. I'm not a particularly woo woo kind of person. And so if you tell me we're doing a ritual, I'm like, okay, have fun with that. You know? You're like, I won't be there. Love that for other people. Again, would help my friends perform a ritual. I'm not, I'm not doing it myself. I'm not a, I'm not a ritual girl. Thank you very much.

Well, according to Foxy, rituals form pathways for positive energy to flow. They don't, but Foxy, I love that for you anyway. She says that routines are necessary so that the universe knows where to meet us. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'm getting her. I get Foxy's vibe. Listen, I love that there are people out there with that vibe.

Yeah, I mean, Batsy's got so many rituals. She's got a ritual for writing, which includes spontaneous diffusions of vocal energy. When she walks around screaming and yelping before she writes a diary? Yes, yes.

Who among us doesn't scream when we write? Well, listen, I often, I weep, I howl. Yes. Gnashing my teeth. Yes, rending of garments. There's all sorts of things happening. Yeah. So there's a ritual for entering spaces, which includes a bold announcement of one's presence. There...

are a ton of different rituals for harvesting. There's even one specifically for wheatgrass, like specifically for harvesting wheatgrass. Okay. All right. I mean, listen, if the rituals are for her and they make her feel spiritually aligned, then who am I to begrudge her that? But, you know, don't ask me to be announcing myself every time I walk out of your bathroom. I'm like, I'm done pissing now. Yeah.

Well, now I want you to do that. How are you feeling so far? I am excited about the buddy comedy that I can imagine these two sort of now creating between them. I can so clearly see like a good cop, bad cop vibe between these two, except they're both good cops at heart. I mean, maybe, yeah, maybe they like team up to solve a murder. Wow.

I mean, I'm sure Foxy has a ritual for that. Maybe they team up to commit a murder. Oh! That's not the kind of show we do, Brandi. Well, the Ferrari guy probably has it coming, right? The next time Tony hears from Foxy is about a week later when she calls him out of the blue. And this is back when people actually picked up unexpected phone calls, which is not something I do. Never. Never. Could not pay me. Nope. Foxy's like, hello, how are you? Did you get a chance to read my blog?

And Uncle Tony's like, hi, Foxy, sure did. And then he's like, it was a real eye opener. Foxy's like, I so look forward to discussing it with you when you come over this weekend. And Uncle Tony's like, I hadn't planned on coming over this weekend. And Foxy's like, well, you simply have no other option. You must speak to that man in that horrible little glass box next door. She's like, he's ruining my balance.

And Foxy tells Uncle Tony everything she knows about the rich guy she shares a fence with. She tells him how the guy had moved in about a year ago, but hadn't spoken to anyone in the neighborhood. So it actually took her a while to figure out his deal. Not even introducing yourself to your new neighbors. Come on. But Foxy is persistent. So eventually she finds out that her neighbor's name is Roy.

She's pretty sure he's in his late 50s, and she had found out from the local barber that he recently split from his wife. Oh. Oh, don't be having your midlife crisis next to my home, Roy. Do that somewhere else. Please. Well, in the divorce, Roy had gotten the beach house in Sand Dollar Cove that he promptly tore down and replaced with the hideous cube. Tasteless. Tasteless.

tasteless midlife passes. Oh, gosh. Like many divorcees, Roy had discovered a new love in life, wine. Foxy tells Uncle Tony that every night for the past two months, Roy would do three things. He would start drinking his wine, he'd get in his hot tub, and he would put on his favorite song, Fleetwood Mac's Silver Springs. Okay, fuck, I love Roy. I'm sorry. I've done a complete 180. Roy, listen, you want to talk about rituals?

Silver Springs in a hot tub with some wine. Now that is a ritual I can get behind. Oh, listen, I knew when I said from the beginning that Roy was a good guy, I knew that I was right about this. When you said he had such great taste and that that glass box was gorgeous.

When I said that there's something like profound in his soul, that Roy has been wounded by life, that he is slowly healing himself. And he deserves grace as he explores that process. Yes, I knew. I knew I was right about it.

I mean, it sounds like you know the lore behind Silver Springs. Of course. Of course I do. I'm a woman of a certain age. How could I not? Well, could you tell us what the lore is and what you think it might imply about Roy's state of mind that it's his favorite song right now?

Well, so Silver Springs is written by the incredible, the majestic, the iconic, the practically supernatural talent Stevie Nicks. She wrote it, I think, just shortly after her breakup with fellow Fleetwood Mac bandmate Lindsey Buckingham. And it did not make it onto Rumors, their sort of album that famously was being recorded while they were all simultaneously fucking each other and breaking up with each other.

But it did make it on to the later remastered re-release, and she also famously sung it on their live reunion tour to his face. And including lyrics like, you'll never get away from the sound of the woman who wants you. I know I could have loved you, but you would not let me. Listen, I don't want to try to begin to count the number of times...

I have played that song while drinking wine in a bathtub, not a hot tub. Close enough. Close enough. It is a song that means a lot to everybody who has ever had a human emotion. Yes. Correct. Correct. Yeah. Foxy is like, listen, I love Stevie Nicks as much as the next bitch. I mean, how could Foxy not love Stevie Nicks? Exactly. Right? They're witchy sisters. They're peas in a pod.

But she's also like, Roy doesn't just play the song to start the night. That'd be okay. She's like, he plays it over and over and over again. Oh. All night. Oh, is he stuck in a heartbreak glitch loop?

Sometimes he even starts in the afternoon. Fox is like, have you tried to do sun salutations to Fleetwood Mac? You can have one night where you play that on repeat. You can't be doing it every night. Otherwise, like you're going to drain the song of its power. Yeah, it's true. If you overdo it. Yeah. You got to pace yourself on that. You got to work in other, you know, bring in some Martha Wainwright bloody motherfucking asshole. Yeah.

There's like a world of heartbreak jams out there that you can cut the pure shit with, right? How many nights do you think you would have to hear Silver Springs played over and over again before committing a crime? Three.

Three? Three nights? Well, at three nights, I'm like, okay, this wasn't, you know, he didn't just decide to do this twice. We're heading down a road here. I see where this is going, and I'm getting ahead of it right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uncle Tony's like, I don't want to find out. So he heads out to Sand Dollar Cove the next weekend, and first he stops by Fox's to say hi. He knocks on the door and waits for

and waits, and waits some more before she finally opens it. And Uncle Tony's like, it's probably one of her rituals. Was she doing a ritual? Yeah. They chat for a bit, and then Uncle Tony heads next door to the soulless gray glass box that shares a fence with Foxy. And Tony's like, I can't lie. I have a certain idea in my head of what Roy is going to look like based on the information given to me. So when Roy opens the door and looks normal, Tony's like, what the fuck?

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He does have an unmistakable air of sadness about him. But I'm the kind of person where that would only make Roy hotter than me because that's who I am. Absolutely. I can heal him. I can fix his sad heart. Yeah. We'll start listening to You Make Lovin' Fun.

Oh, that's, you know, honestly, when you go from Stevie Nicks to Christine McVie, that's when you know that you've like completed the process. You're out of the hole. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uncle Tony introduces himself. He's like, I'm the property manager for the house next to yours. My tenant has some noise complaints and Roy's expression, which had been sort of like vaguely polite, completely changes. Roy's like, are you joking?

And then he's like, that's really fucking rich coming from her. Did she tell you she loves to scream at all hours of the day and night? It's like living in a horror movie. Foxy! Foxy, I knew when you said something about like unprompted vocal emanations. I'm using fusions of vocal energy. That was the one. That was the one. That's a red flag right there.

Uncle Tony's like, uh, no, I haven't heard anything about screaming. Uh, but then he's like, how about this? I'll give you my phone number. So the next time she screams, you can give me a call. Roy's like, thank God. Finally, someone reasonable. Tony's just getting further and further enmeshed into this situation. He loves drama. He loves it. Okay. He's like, I'm getting both sides of the story. He's fair and balanced. Uncle Tony. Objective. Uncle Tony. Yeah. All right. We're here for the truth.

And Roy's like, wait, did you say you're the property manager for that place next door? And that's when Roy tells Uncle Tony that the Finns dividing their properties is a major eyesore. All the kudzu is so tall that it's obstructing his view of the ocean. But the Finns isn't technically on Roy's side of the property line, so he can't do anything about it.

Cutting back the cuts, he was already on Uncle Tony's list. So he's like, yeah, sure. On it, boss. Do you think Uncle Tony's made any mistakes so far? Yeah. So I think if you've got a sad sack of a middle-aged crisis rich neighbor who's got to complain about your fence, you make him pony up to fix the fence. I feel like you take advantage of this situation. You also, listen, Roy needs a project. Why not give him something to focus on other than his own pain? Yeah.

Yeah, I would have seen that red Ferrari in the driveway and been like, you can afford to replace the fence. Yeah, exactly. Listen, let's get, you know what? Let's bring Foxy and Roy together. We'll have Foxy create a ritual where each kudzu that he cuts back is like some damage that his ex-wife has done to him. We get a new fence and a new Roy. Wow. Wow. What more could you want? Yeah.

Yeah, Uncle Tony is like, I think I'm handling this okay so far. Until the very first night both Foxy and Roy call him. See, this is what happens when you get yourself in the middle. It's a Saturday night. Uncle Tony is at home. He's watching a Duke football game when his phone rings. And it's Foxy. Without saying hi, she's like, I cannot write under these conditions.

And in the background of the call, Uncle Tony can very clearly make out Stevie Nicks singing blue, green colors flashing. Oh, Tony's like, yep, got it. I'll call him now. Except before Tony can even pull out the phone book, he gets a phone call and it's Roy. And Roy's like, that woman is screaming again.

And Uncle Tony's like, that's really funny. I just got a call from her about you. She said your music's really loud. And Roy's like, I only turned it up to drown out the screaming. So Tony's like, can I call you back? He hangs up with Roy, calls Foxy. He's like, Foxy, there's no delicate way to ask this. Have you been screaming?

Your neighbor says that's why his music's so loud. Well, she said she was trying to write. And as we all know, before she could write, she needs to do her little vocal ritual. So I'm going to guess Foxy's been hollering. Well, Foxy's like screaming. How dare he? I'm writing. And she's like, my writing ritual requires spontaneous diffusions of vocal energy. Yeah.

And Uncle Tony's like, yeah, I remember reading that on your blog. Could you give me a demonstration? And Foxy's like, I knew you were a man of discerning taste. Of course I can. And she clears her throat and then releases a blood-curdling scream like it is giving Toni Collette in Hereditary. Foxy, you gotta take care of your vocal cords, man. That's gonna...

It's not good for you. Uncle Tony has to hold the phone away from his ear because the scream is so loud. Foxy finishes screaming and she's like, I just had the most beautiful sentence come to me. Oh, God. She screams per sentence? Oh, Lord. You should at least get a paragraph out of a scream like that. Come on now. One paragraph per scream. This is unsustainable, Foxy. You are going to...

to blow out your own voice before you finish a chapter uncle tony's like that's great foxy how long have you been doing this and foxy like since before i even moved in here all my other neighbors have gotten used to it brandy as an editor do you support this kind of writing technique listen i what what writers need to do to get a draft to me frankly not my concern you

Whatever rituals you want, as long as I don't live next door, that's fine. I do have concerns, like I said, that this needs to happen for the output of one sentence. That seems to me a pretty unsustainable pace at which to go like screaming and typing your way to a draft of whatever. Yeah, yeah.

I'm just remembering that scene. Have you seen Something's Gotta Give? Yes. When she's crying and she's typing. She's crying and she's typing. It's so good. I think about that all the time. Yeah, but you see the pace with which she's typing. She's really getting it down. It's just...

She's using it in like an efficient manner. Yeah, you're right. Diane Keaton Foxy, take a note. Yes. How would you handle the situation if you were Uncle Tony? Oh, good Lord. Well, like now you're in the middle of it and yeah. Oh, that's tough. Um,

I feel like I would try to broker some sort of peace agreement between the two of them. I would maybe figure out, you know, can you... Are there certain hours of the day when Roy isn't going to be home? And can those be your writing hours, Foxy? Can we dedicate, you know, sort of you journal between three and five when Roy is out writing?

At therapy. Whatever he's doing. Yeah, because he's parked outside his ex's house in his new Ferrari between three and five every afternoon. Can you get your screaming in then, please? Uncle Tony is like, I'm done playing telephone tag at this point. So he's like, I'm going to come by next weekend and sort this out.

And he asks Foxy if she'll like hold off on writing until then. She's just writing her blog, right? She's not writing a novel. No, it's just her blog. Okay, so we can we can put a pin in that for the moment until we Uncle Tony comes to do some diplomacy. Yes. Well, Foxy's like, inspiration doesn't abide by our manmade rules, but I'll try to keep her at bay.

And Uncle Tony is like, thank you so much. Benevolent queen. He calls Roy back and is like, she won't scream until next weekend. Can you keep your music down until then? And Roy's like, I'll keep it down as long as she doesn't scream. Do you trust these two to keep their word? No, of course not. Would we be having this conversation on the Normal Gossip Podcast right now if that solved it and there was nothing left? End of story. Bye. Bye.

Well, for about a week, it's not really Uncle Tony's problem because Uncle Tony is going on vacation. He's got a boy's trip planned to Biloxi. Oh, yeah.

I have I've spent time in Biloxi. I've been to the Margaritaville in Biloxi. Oh, my God. And I have seen the Biloxi minor league baseball team, the Biloxi Shuckers. Their mascot is an oyster who holds a baseball bat. It's tremendous. I love a minor league baseball team. The Coney Island Cyclones.

I love a minor league baseball team. The prices are good. They have like fun in between innings stuff. Yes. It's a good time. So Uncle Tony's on his way to Biloxi. Maybe he'll catch a game, but he's like, I'm not getting paid for any of this. So the house in Sand Dollar Cove can hold tight for a week. Tony gets back from his little boy's trip on Saturday, which happens to be the same day that a landscaping company is coming to check out like the fence between Foxy and Roy's properties. Yeah.

So Uncle Tony only has time to go home and change his clothes before heading back out to Sand Dollar Cove. He doesn't even have time to listen to his voicemail, so he doesn't see that both Foxy and Roy have called him several times. Of course they have. It's not until Uncle Tony pulls up to Foxy's house that he sees the damage.

All the kudzu has been removed from both sides of the fence. And at first, Uncle Tony's like, great, I guess Roy decided to take care of himself. One more thing off my plate. But then he gets closer and he sees what the kudzu had been hiding.

The fence is full of holes from like decayed or broken slats. Like if the kudzu was an eyesore, the fucked up fence is an even bigger one. Okay. All right. We've solved one problem only to reveal a deeper one. Exactly. I'm familiar with these narrative beats having watched many, many seasons of Supernatural where they're like, we averted the apocalypse by creating a larger apocalypse. By having super gods. Yes.

do you think Foxy's gonna react to this narrative beat? Oh, Foxy is pissed. The holes in the fence are messing with her ritual somehow. It's like the wind is coming through at the wrong angle. And this is a real problem for her.

Foxy runs out of the house as soon as she sees Uncle Tony's truck. She's like, where have you been? I have called you so many times. Tammy said you were on vacation. How could you take a vacation at a time like this? Again, Uncle Tony's not getting paid for anything. Yeah, I was like, Foxy, okay. Which he does not have a chance to remind Foxy of because she immediately follows up with, do you see what that asshole has done? The energy is entirely ruined. Yeah.

And he's trying to suppress my First Amendment rights. Oh, God. Her First Amendment rights to scream? Yeah, Uncle Tony's like, what are you talking about? And Foxy's like, go ask him about it. So once again, Uncle Tony heads over to the soulless glass box. Except before he even reaches the front step, Roy comes running out. He's like, that woman is a menace.

And Uncle Tony's like, hi, Roy. I see you decided to get the kudzu removed without telling anybody. And Roy's like, it was obstructing my view of the ocean, I told you. And Uncle Tony expects Roy to start ranting about how bad the fucked up fence is. But instead, Roy's like, you simply have to control your tenant. And Tony's like, what are you talking about? And that's when Roy points toward the fence separating his property from Foxy's. And this is the first time Tony has seen the fence from this vantage point.

And without the kudzu, it is extremely easy to see into Foxy's yard where she is currently walking around stark naked. Listen, as is her right, Foxy stripped down quickly. Well, I think that's what the linen caftans are for. Right.

smart smart right right how do you feel about nudism like are you like a never nude are you like a when the spirit moves me listen i've got really great tits and you know sometimes it's nice to just let them out there yeah probably i'm not somebody who's going to be like

you know, doing a two week vacation at a nudist camp. That's not for me. No. But I don't, I'm not a prude about it. You know, the human body is a beautiful thing and it should sometimes be free.

Foxy agrees. Foxy is a dedicated nudist, which Uncle Tony is starting to think actually makes a lot of sense. Like a lot of the rituals on her website had mentioned that nudity actually helps the flow of energy because it's not hampered by clothes. And again, he's literally only ever seen her in billowing linen caftans. And she always takes forever to open the door. Roy is like, you have to do something. This is obscene.

Now, Uncle Tony is a smart man. He knows this is Roy's fault. Roy had not gotten anyone's consent to cut back the kudzu and the fence isn't even on his property. So what he did was actually illegal. But Uncle Tony also knows that eventually the fence is going to need to be repaired and fences are expensive. And he has a feeling Tammy's grandmother had not left enough money for that. So Uncle Tony's like, let's make a deal. He's like, if you pay for the materials, I'll get the fence fixed. Genius. Genius. Genius.

Roy has very clearly been traumatized by whatever rituals of Foxy's he has been privy to. So he is very quickly like done. Okay, Roy, you simply cannot just have a tantrum when you see a titty. Like, come on, Roy, this can't be how you live your life. This might be why your wife left you. I mean, we don't know why, but that's a good guess. Roy, you just got to relax.

Well, Roy offers a condition. He's like, she has to keep her clothes on until the fences are paired. Do you think this is a fair condition? I mean, it's fair, but also Foxy's not going to be into that. Uncle Tony's like, homie, it's a free country. If she wants to be nude on her property, she has the right and we're not near any schools.

But Uncle Tony, again, a smart man. So he's like, here's another deal. I'll tell her that you promised to keep your music down if she promises to confine her nudity to her home. And Roy's like,

Deal. All right. All right. We're getting concessions. Uncle Tony goes back to Foxy's and he tells her about the fence. He even tells her Roy's going to pay for it as a sort of olive branch. And then he tells her Roy promised to keep his music down as long as Foxy committed to wearing clothes outdoors until the fence is fixed. Do you see any problem with this mutually assured destruction? Yeah. Well, I feel like Foxy's going to...

She's gonna venture out onto the porch and be like, "It's not the yard!" "My feet aren't touching grass!" Yes, exactly. She's gonna do like an "I'm not touching you" sort of thing.

Yes. But also she's a woman who, you know, is moved by her own spirit. And who can put a bunch of terms and conditions on that? You can't litigate the spirit. You can't keep Cloxy down using bylaws, sub clauses. Who are we kidding here? And I also feel like, you know, Roy is probably gonna turn that music, maybe not quite the volume it was before, but...

He's got to crank his, you know, sad song. Yeah. He's still working through some stuff. He certainly is. Well, for a little while, things are actually quiet. Like Uncle Tony manages to find someone to repair the fence for cheap. Unfortunately, that means the work is not getting done very quickly. So it is during this time, while the fence is very slowly being repaired, that yet another problem is added to Uncle Tony's list. You see, Roy has a cat named Stevie.

After Stevie Nicks, of course. Roy is a man of such fascinating contradictions. You know, the glass box, yet the cat named Stevie. Yeah. People are just endlessly, endlessly interesting to me.

Well, Stevie keeps sneaking into Foxy's garden through the open fence. And weirdly, it is actually Roy who calls Uncle Tony about this first. Roy is like, that woman is feeding Stevie some kind of hippie garbage. Every time Stevie comes back from her garden, he throws up something green. She's doing wheatgrass rituals with the cats.

Do you think this is Uncle Tony's problem? No. No, listen. Uncle Tony has, you know, he's now doing unpaid labor as a property manager, as a contractor, as a couples therapist, as a mediator. Yeah. He's doing guerrilla diplomacy. Uncle Tony has spread too thin. He's got to update his resume. Yes.

A trip to Biloxi is not enough to reset when you've got all this going on. He needs to go to Monte Carlo. Exactly. Uncle Tony doesn't really think it's his problem either, but he's got some free time that afternoon. So he calls Foxy later and he asks her how the fence repairs are going. And then he's like, have you seen a cat around? And then she's like, which one? The neighborhood cats all love my heirloom wheatgrass.

I didn't know this before this story, but apparently cats go apeshit for wheatgrass, like the shit that's in the $10 shots. And the first time they eat it, they can go a little too hard and end up vomiting, which is apparently what happened to Stevie. Like me the first time I had a wine cooler at 14. Me the first time I got a little too high. Yes. Exactly. This is Stevie's plate. We salute you, Stevie. Yeah.

Uncle Tony relays this information to Roy, and for the first time, Tony hears something like respect in Roy's voice. Roy is like, heirloom wheatgrass.

Uncle Tony is a little too salt of the earth to know anything about this bougie shit, but he's like, how can I use this unexpected connection to my advantage? Do you have any ideas? Yeah, you gotta tell Foxy that Uncle Roy is really into making green smoothies and that the two of them should bond over treating their bodies as temples or some bullshit. Exactly.

The next time Uncle Tony sees Foxy is about a week later when he goes to check out the progress on the fence, which is like halfway done. And Foxy starts complaining about how the efficacy of her rituals is suffering from lack of fresh air. And Uncle Tony can tell she's about to start in on Roy. So before she can, he's like, you know, your neighbor's real impressed with your fancy grass. And Foxy's like, my weed? That's surprising. He seemed like a tightwad.

And this raises a lot of questions for Tony, but our man's on a peace mission. He doesn't have time to get into that. So he's like, no, not that. I mean, the fancy grass cats love. And there's like real pride in Foxy's voice when she's like, I asked my wheatgrass. She tells Tony that the seed for the wheatgrass has been passed down in her family for generations. Oh, wow.

Do you think it's ever a good idea to lie for the greater good? Yes, of course. It's often a good idea. Society is held together by people telling, you know, productive lies. Correct. Uncle Tony decides to tell like a little white lie, like the littlest white lie. Uncle Tony's like, Foxy, you seem like a smart lady. Was that the lie? Yeah.

I cannot confirm nor deny that one. Uncle Tony's like, do you think any man in his right mind will be playing Silver Springs on repeat for weeks on end? And that's when Uncle Tony tells Foxy that in their last call, Roy had actually confessed to still being pretty busted up over his divorce. And Tony's like, yeah, he said he wants to take better care of himself, but he doesn't know where to start. Oh, oh.

And it might be no surprise to you to learn that Foxy is a real softie. Like, yes, she loves to scream, but she also cares very deeply. Foxy's like, oh, poor thing. He's probably got so much inflammation from his broken heart. That weak rice would help with that. She's like, I have just the thing. I just made it this morning. Yeah.

And this is when Uncle Tony learns about Foxy's Witch's Brew. Like, she calls it this herself, to be clear. She won't tell anyone what is in it. Though, from the violet-green color, wheatgrass is definitely the main ingredient. Foxy's Witch's Brew is famous in the neighborhood for curing everything from heartbreak to the flu. Sure. Because it gives you something worse that you can focus on? No.

Foxy instructs Tony to give Roy the richest brew, but she says it's only because she thinks Stevie the cat is adorable. And Foxy's like, Stevie deserves a more stable spiritual environment. Well, you know, who can argue with that? It's true. Uncle Tony's like a win is a win. Mm-hmm.

He goes to see Roy and tells him that Foxy says Stevie the cat is adorable, which is more a lie of omission than anything else, I would say. And then he delivers the wheatgrass concoction and he says that Foxy sends it along as a gift because she knows she's not the easiest neighbor. What?

Oh, listen, he is sneaky in such a productive way. I want this man on my side. This man that you were a fan of from the very beginning? Exactly. This man that I have not once said a word against. Never once questioned? No, never. There's one thing I've never done in my life. It is besmirch the very good name of Uncle Tony. Yes.

Well, Uncle Tony is pretty proud of himself. From this point on, the voicemails that Roy and Foxy leave him start to like change in tone. They go from raging to complaining to like kind of sort of complaining. It's less like you need to get over here immediately and more like if you have time, when you have time, not an emergency. Love that. Love that for him.

until one morning a few weeks after the Wheatgrass Accords. The Wheatgrass Accords is very good. Uncle Tony wakes up to a series of increasingly panicked voicemails from Roy and Foxy. The first is from Roy, who is very clearly on the verge of tears. Roy's like, I can't find Stevie anywhere and Foxy won't let me check her backyard if she's hiding him. I'm calling the police.

The next voicemail is from Foxy, who's like, I have no idea where the cat is. Roy is so irresponsible. And then another from Foxy, who's like, I let the tightwad check my backyard, but we still can't find Stevie. You have to do something, Tony. Why is this Tony's problem? These are grown adults. Come on. And then finally one from Roy, who is fully sobbing. Like, Stevie's missing. Please help. Foxy keeps trying to do a location ritual, and I don't want to do a blood sacrifice. Ha ha ha.

Roy's been through too much. Roy just does not have the emotional bandwidth to deal with a missing cat right now. We can't take it. Have you ever lost a pet? I have. Yeah, terrifying. It seems extremely scary. It was extremely scary. Well, so I thought that my cat had gotten out of the yard and I spent, you know, the better part of two hours looking for him. Turns out he just was hiding under the house. Peak cat behavior. Yes, yeah.

But yeah, very, very scary. Not something I would wish on anybody, especially somebody who's also, you know, listening to Silver Springs that much. Yeah. Uncle Tony listens to all of this with a pit in his stomach. Like on one hand, he's like, this is nowhere near my job, which once again, I'm not being paid for. He's like, I'm a handyman, not a veterinarian, certainly not an animal hunter.

But Uncle Tony's also a huge softie. So even though he had planned on going over to Sand Dollar Cove that weekend, he heads over as soon as he finishes eating breakfast. First, he goes to Foxy's. He knocks on her door and waits and waits and waits. She doesn't put her clothes on. It takes a minute. But she never answers. So then Uncle Tony heads over to the soulless gray glass box next door. He walks up the driveway to Roy's house, rings the doorbell and waits.

and waits. He rings it again, and he's starting to get a little nervous because Roy doesn't usually take that long to answer his door. What are the two of them up to? But then the door finally opens, and behind it is none other than Foxy. You're like kicking your feet and giggling. I absolutely am. Okay, I'm being calm about this. What does she do? Was she just over there helping to find the cat?

Well, before Uncle Tony can even say, what the fuck, Foxy's like, we had a night last night. Uncle Tony cannot believe his eyes or ears, and he is trying to find a delicate way of asking, did y'all fuck? When Roy joins Foxy at the door and in his arms is the smallest kitten Uncle Tony has ever seen. Stevie pregnant? Stevie unwed mother? Oh no!

From here, the entire story comes out. Once Foxy and Roy had, like, determined that neither one of them was harboring the cat, they had gone searching together and eventually found Stevie the cat holed up in a tool shed about to give birth. And this was surprising for many reasons, the most important of which is that up until this point, Roy had been referring to Stevie as a boy. Ha ha ha!

Foxy had helped the panicking Roy assist Stevie through labor. And it's at this point that Foxy looks at Uncle Tony and is like, in another life, I was a cat doula. Of course you was. Uncle Tony's like, I'm sure you were. Absolutely. Who's your favorite? I mean, as I've said from the beginning...

I love all of them in their own way. I love that each one is a softie. I love that they are all moved by their own feelings. These are my sort of people. I like all of them. But Stevie's the best one, obviously. Obviously. My final updates are that the night Foxy and Roy spent as co-midwives to Stevie officially ended the war between them. Wait, did they fuck though? Come on, I need to know.

Let me get to that. Okay, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm jumping ahead. The detente was helped by the fact that the fence was fully repaired two weeks after that, but Foxy even helps Roy find homes for all of the kittens, and she keeps one herself. And because Stevie obviously cannot be separated from her child, Foxy and Roy cut, like, a small little hole into the newly repaired fence so that Stevie and her child can come and go as pleased. Oh, not a pussy hole.

No! Yes, well. The rest of the repairs on the house are finished within a month or so, but Uncle Tony still drives down to Sand Dollar Cove every so often, ostensibly to check out the property for Tammy, but mostly to get sweet tea and gossip from Foxy. But Foxy never tells Tony if she and Roy ever hooked up. Whenever he asks, she's just like, the universe has her secrets. No!

Okay, well, I'm sorry. I believe in love. I believe in romance. And I believe that the two of them, they got up to things that even Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham did not have the passion to undertake. I mean, they have access to weed. They have a hot tub over the ocean. They're retired. What else are they going to do? They're retired.

That's our story, Brandy. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you. It was a delight. It was a pleasure. I believe in love. Do you believe in life after love? I do. I still don't believe in rituals.

Thank you for listening to Normal Gossip. If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us at normalgossip at defector.com. Or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679-GOSSIP. If you love this podcast and want to support us, become a friend or a friend of a friend at supportnormalgossip.com. You can follow the show on Instagram and TikTok at normalgossip. You can follow me on all social media at heydenae, H-E-Y-Y-D-N-A-E.

This podcast was produced by Sierra Spragley-Rix and Jay Tolviera. Thank you to Samantha Gacic, our audio engineer. And thank you to Danielle Hewitt for your additional production help this season. The co-creators and Dowager Queen's Norma Gossett are Alex John Laughlin and Kelsey McKinney. Justin Ellis is Defector's projects editor. Jasper Wang and Sean Coon are Defector's business guys.

Alex Dujang-Loughlin is the Vector's supervising producer. Tom Leigh is our editor-in-chief. Dan McQuaid runs our merch store, which you can find at normalgossip.store. Tara Jacoby designed our show art. Thank you to Catherine Chu, Brandi Jensen, Louise Pérez-Pumar, Chris Thompson, Jasper Wang, Sabrina Embler, Dave McKenna, Patrick Redford, and Ray Rado for all your help on this season. Thank you to the rest of the Vector staff.

Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber-based media company. Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia. I'm your host, Rachel Hampton. And remember, you didn't hear this from me. Radiotopia. From PRX.