The J6 Commutations Have Ripple Effects
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This is On The Media's Midweek Podcast. I'm Michael Olinger. Back in 2023, I traveled out to Montana with Anna Sale, the host of Death, Sex, and Money, to interview Tasha Adams. She's the ex-wife of Stuart Rhodes, the founder of the Oath Keepers, the far-right militia group.

Stewart was convicted of seditious conspiracy for his role in the January 6th insurrection. Prosecutors argued that members of the Oath Keepers used force to block the results of the election. He was sentenced to 18 years in prison.

Anna and I called Tasha back just a few days before Trump's inauguration. On the episode that Death, Sex and Money called the chest clenching fear of my ex-husband's January 6th commutation, Tasha told us how after Trump won, she felt totally shut down. I just couldn't even look at it.

Got up in the morning, took one glance at the results before I got up and left for work, saw what happened and didn't even think about it again. And I just, I must have had hundreds of messages and media reaching out and, you know, and I did a couple interviews, but I just didn't have the heart for it.

I don't know how else to describe it. You know, I felt so on fire to do as many interviews as I could possibly do leading up to Stuart's arrest and conviction, you know, just to get that message out, you know, desperately. Like, I needed to keep the spotlight on Stuart, and I needed people to understand how serious it was for him to be convicted. But then...

But after this election, you know, I just felt like I just couldn't move. I mean, it was just really hard to even function. You know, I never really seriously believed Stuart would get out. You know, I was afraid of it, and it loomed, but I didn't really in my gut think that that would happen. And now I get hit with just clinching fear that I think it's extremely likely to happen.

You'll hear more of that conversation at the end of this episode. Just five days after our conversation with Tasha, Trump did commute Stewart's sentence. He's now out of prison. Tasha wasn't ready to speak about that. When she told us her story less than two years ago, she talked about how empowered she felt to share what she had gone through in her marriage, believing it would matter to public opinion, to the criminal justice system.

And so that's why we're sharing parts of her stories again. We think it's important to hear. People died that day. And I, you know, the first words out of my mouth were, I helped start this. I helped start this. It turned into that. And people died that day. And would this have happened had I not supported Stuart? This is Death, Sex, and Money. The show from Slate about the things we think about a lot and need to talk about more.

I'm Anna Sale. And I'm Micah Loewinger from On the Media. Micah Loewinger, co-host of On the Media from WNYC, has long reported on the internal chatter of right-wing groups. It's how we first got connected with Tasha Adams, the now ex-wife of Oath Keepers founder Stuart Rhodes.

Micah introduced me to Tasha, and two years ago, he and I traveled to northwest Montana, not far from the Canadian border, to interview her in person. It's beautiful. Beautiful and kind of scary because the roads are very icy. Yeah. We met Tasha in the small town where Stuart Rhodes moved their family in 2010.

We talked for hours in a conference room at a local business. It had been hard to find a place to record. Tasha's landlord didn't want reporters coming by her place. Another business we called didn't want to get mixed up in any coverage of the Oath Keepers. It made me wonder how isolated Tasha felt. At the time, she worked in a coffee shop and kept a low profile in town.

It was anathema to her husband's big persona. Maybe you've seen him on TV with his black leather eye patch. He liked the spotlight, to be in charge. It was a quality that attracted thousands of followers to his group. When we talked to Tasha back then, it was a few months before a judge would determine how long Stuart Rhodes would go to prison for. He'd already been convicted of seditious conspiracy. That was a trial that Tasha had followed closely.

Yeah, I listened to all the pre-trial hearings. I listened to all of that. Anything I could listen to, I listened to. Why? I just, yeah, I don't know. I just was pretty obsessed with the whole thing. I just needed to. Also, the idea of seeing Stuart face consequences is so huge for me. And then it's like sort of a process of Stuart's about to face consequences, right?

Okay, he needs to face consequences. And then I kind of take a deep breath and sit with it and just let myself get hit with the fear that I can't stop because there's nothing I can do with this internal voice that says, if something bad happens to Stuart, something bad happens to me.

Tasha was 22 when she married Stuart. She was just 18 when they started dating. She was teaching ballroom dancing in Las Vegas, where she'd grown up in a tight-knit Mormon family. I really wanted to do everything. You know, I had a really busy schedule. I was taking tons of other dance classes in addition to the ballroom. I was always running to auditions. I had a lot of

And before she met Stuart, Tasha had found dating kind of boring. I had gone on a date earlier with a Mormon boy, arm around the shoulders during the yawn at the movies. You know, no kissing on the first date. Okay, that's fine. But it just wasn't the adventure I was looking for.

Then came Stuart. He was 25, an artist who'd grown up in this big multicultural family with Filipino and Mexican relatives. He caught her eye because he was a single guy in a dancing class at the studio where she worked. And Stuart was so assertive and he just seemed so worldly, you know, and he lived everywhere and he'd been in the military and, you know, he brought me pictures of, you know, times he'd gone hang gliding while he was in the military and

But he was very, you know, we went on a few dates. There was a bit of a culture clash because he was just so assertive. And, you know, our first date,

It was planned for a weekend, but instead of waiting for the weekend, he actually called me the next night. First time he ever called me was at 10.30 at night, my family's home, you know, back in the days of home phones, right? So the whole house is waking up. Who the heck is calling now? It's at 10.30 at night. And he said, let's go out to dinner. Well, this is Las Vegas, so you can do that. He picked me up at 11.30 at night, and we had dinner at midnight. And it seemed odd, and it made me a little uncomfortable, but at the same time, I sort of

And then how quickly did you all become serious? Pretty quickly. I mean, I was pretty much staying over there within, to me, it was quick, within three months or so.

Which was a huge, obviously this is a huge no-no in my life and in my family, my culture. But really around that same time, three months in, his possessiveness, his controlling, his constant, his possessiveness not so much over the kind of things I read about that at the time were seen as red flags in relationships like marriage.

jealousy of, you know, you're looking at him. It wasn't like that. It was more possessiveness of my personal time. He wanted my time and all of it. And he seemed very jealous of me going to school. He seemed jealous of the dance classes I was taking. He was jealous of my friends. He wanted that time for himself. And even at that point, I started to think, I don't know, you know, maybe this isn't for me. Which, you know, at that point, it's turned into a sexual relationship.

And stepping away from it at that point is a big risk for me, you know, because I'm now downgraded in this world that I grew up in. You know, I'm not going to be anyone's dream girl, right, at this point, you know, if I stay inside, you know, Mormon culture. At least that's how I viewed it. But I was really on the fence and I was really thinking differently.

Maybe I need to break this off. And I was really actually pulled into a parking lot and was just mulling it over, just sitting there thinking, which way do I drive? Do I drive back to my mom's house and just go home or do I drive to Stuart's place where I'm supposed to go? And I was really kind of back and forth. I wound up going to his place, but I was still, you know, the next day I was still kind of in my own head about, man, I don't know. And then I get a call that he's been in this really terrible, there's been a terrible accident. And...

He's accidentally shot himself in the eye. And this completely changed everything in my relationship. I mean, if I had just been a few years older, if I had been maybe 25, I probably would have been like, wow, that's really unfortunate timing.

That I was about to break up with you and you've had a devastating accident. But at 18, I thought, well, now what am I going to do? Now I'm trapped. I have to take care of him. Yeah. And it changed the dynamic completely. You know, I was taking care of him. I was cleaning out his MDI socket. I was just like being pulled out in a tidal wave. And also kind of ironic because a lot of the militia guys preach this like gun safety thing and how they're like well-trained and they don't slip up and, you know. Yeah. And then. Yes. Yes.

It really struck me a lot. This is jumping forward just briefly, but during our divorce hearing, it came up where he talked about how safe he was at handling weapons. And honestly, I had been so conditioned for so many years to never bring it up. I just, I thought to myself, wow, too bad I can't bring up the fact that he shot himself in the face. And I don't know why. It just was so conditioned to not bring that up that I just didn't. And I just let him sit there.

You know, with an eye patch on and tell the judge how safe he is with firearms. I just didn't say a thing. Conditioned because if you ever brought it up during the course of your marriage, it's so humiliating and embarrassing to him that it would be dangerous for you to bring that up. Yeah, he would shut it down and so you just couldn't even hint at it or just almost didn't even talk about that he was missing an eye, you know. Wow. Okay. So he has this terrible accident and it also has this hugely consequential effect.

a huge consequence for your life and your ability to feel like this is a relationship you could end after three months. Yeah, yeah. And when you married, had that period of doubting changed into something else? Yes. It changed into, I have to fix this. Fix what? Fix him. He said, you know, during his recovery, he became more open about the kind of abuse he experienced as a kid that his mom had

not been mentally stable, that there was a lot of physical abuse. And I felt so bad and I felt so guilty for my own upbringing. You know, I'd had this board game family life, you know? I mean, I had this great life. Whenever there was something I didn't like about his behavior, he would remind me of this horrible childhood he'd had and how difficult he'd had it. And, you know, not everyone has this perfect life. And

He was, you know, very intelligent and he was very good at manipulating me, honestly. And he was very quick to pick up on the fact that I was a real hot button and sort of trigger for me was any implication, anyone implying that I might be entitled or selfish or kind of a spoiled brat. That always bothered me. And he just knew all he ever had to do was just push it.

You've said a number of times that you thought that he was very intelligent. What are some ways that you picked up on that? How did he express his intelligence? He was very well read, and so was I. But he had read, you know, for example, he read the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire at 13, and he was always reading something. He was very good at...

absorbing things he had read. For me, I'm not like that. You know, I'll read something, but I'll remember the summary of it. He almost doesn't even use the quicker, more summary way of taking in information. He's very heavily focused on the mental, on the deeper mental process. Now, after many years, I've come to believe maybe it's

It might be somewhat common in narcissists or sociopaths to be like that because everything about himself is a deep mimic of other people and the people around him. And he's very good at memory work. And so I think some of that might have been part of his need to constantly memorize the things around him as a way of coping and mimicking how other people act.

Soon after they got married, Stewart enrolled at University of Nevada, Las Vegas. Tasha never got to finish college. Stewart urged her to quit her job teaching ballroom dancing and become a stripper to bring in more money. She says Stewart made her turn over her earnings to him at the end of her shift. But they agreed it was temporary to get him through school, which became a joint family project. He graduated summa cum laude because he took two honors classes.

One is the history of Spain and one was the history of France. And he had to write these papers. And so he did write the main paper to get his summa cum laude status. But these two honors classes were extra classes. And he just explained to me.

you know, I'm doing all this work and he had these papers due. And if he doesn't get these papers due, you know, finished in time, then he's not going to graduate summa cum laude. And, you know, all these things we've worked so hard for aren't going to happen. And so I just wound up doing all his work for his honors classes. You did his homework. Yeah. Wow. Did his papers for him. Yeah.

And so that he could graduate with that. While you're doing the job at the club, stripping. Yeah. When Tasha was 25, they had their first son, Dakota. She says she stopped stripping when her pregnancy started to show. My agreement with him back when I first started stripping was, I will do this. But once we start having kids...

And I put you through school and I basically making it so all you have to do is wake up and walk out the door. That's it. You know, clothes are laid out, you know, everything, food is set, everything is there. And then also not doing any parenting either, you know, so he's doing nothing. He's doing nothing but school. In exchange, I want, this seems so silly, but I was very emotional about this at the time. I want a house.

I want my own house and I want a damn tree house before Dakota's too old to want to play in it. And that's the agreement. So by the time he's about eight years old, I want a little house. It doesn't have to be fancy, just a regular house with a yard. And that's when I went out of this deal. That never happened. Yeah.

Instead, they moved around a lot. Tasha had their second child in 1998 and their third in 2002 while Stuart was enrolled at Yale Law School. Stuart's world was expanding and hers was shrinking. You know, I think the last time I ever went to a doctor was when I was 19. I didn't go again until I was 50. And when you were having babies, what kind of health insurance did you have? Oh, no, I never had any health insurance. Would you go into hospitals to have the babies? They were all home births?

Did you have help? Generally. I had a midwife friend who would help. After Yale, Stewart got good jobs, like a prestigious gig clerking for a judge in Arizona. But nothing lasted. Tasha says he would come up with a reason for why they suddenly had to leave town. Y2K was coming and they needed to prepare, or he suddenly craved a fresh start.

Tasha told us she now looks at these stories differently, that maybe there were other reasons they had to get up and move so quickly. You know, half my life, I swear half my life was playing detective. So sometimes I'm able to solve the mysteries, especially now with his name being so public, it's easier for me to find people and get responses from them. And they remember who, you know, they've been paying attention. His notoriety is helping you understand. Yeah.

Your personal past. I mean, they're just things I had no idea about. I had no idea there was an argument between him and the judge. I had no idea he was fired. Just that we're, oh, we're moving. Okay. Here we go again. It sounds like he had a really hard time working for people and with people. Was the Oath Keepers a kind of way for him to be

the leader to have the autonomy that he wasn't finding in his life up until that point? Honestly, in some ways, that's what I was hoping for when he said he wanted to start an org is I thought, wow, then he could just talk for a living, right? And then he can't get fired. And maybe we can pay the rent because another thing is when you live like that, I mean, at this point, there's no doubt he's abusive, you know, he's physically abusive, he's emotionally abusive. And I still think I can fix him, you know?

Again, back to his intelligence and his gift for manipulating is he seemed to be pretty aware. Looking back, it seemed he was very aware that I wanted to fix him. And so he would constantly say things like, I feel so much better about myself and about our relationship and our family when I'm on my path. And I don't know what my path is, but when I'm on it, when I'm

I don't know where this path ultimately leads, but when I'm headed in the right direction, when I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing, then I'm not getting as angry. Yeah, if I start a nonprofit, if I focus on this group that's just focused on the Constitution, these things that I love, then I'm on it and I'm in the zone and I'm not being drugged down by the lesser me. I'm who I should be, which is a good person.

I want to just ask a few questions. You've used the word abuse a few times, and you just guide us on what feels okay to talk about. But when you say he was physically abusive, when did that start in your relationship? You know, it's funny. If you were to ask me, and in fact I was asked four years ago, three years ago, was Stuart physically abusive, did he ever hit you? I would have said no and did say no many times.

But at the same time, I was physically afraid of him. I was afraid he was going to kill us all. I was afraid of being shot, afraid of being choked, afraid of him grabbing the kids, hitting the kids, afraid for our lives for sure. So he would never outright punch you, but he would do other things to hurt you, you know, because he always wanted deniability. He always saw himself as a great man.

And being undeniably abusive didn't fit into that, though he would break out of that sometimes. But he would always, most commonly, he would want to do martial arts with you. And then you would just get beat to shit, really, you know, with sticks or whatever, you know, and just, oh, sorry about that. Oh, sorry about that. But how often and how hard you got hurt correlated directly to how upset he was with you over something.

He was more abusive to the kids than I realized until later on. And we've been talking about it more. There was a lot of things I did not know. And there's a lot of things I didn't, I think I probably just didn't want to know. And I also have a lot of blank spaces in my memory. It's just missing time that I think maybe I'm just not ready to deal with yet. You know, I can remember screaming and running from him.

I remember my dad, who was really old and had bad knees, coming to the back door, because we lived in sort of a little apartment in the back of my mom's house, asking me if I was okay. I have no memory of why I ran. I have no memory of why I was afraid. ♪

When we were first producing this episode in 2023, we sent a detailed list of questions about topics we discussed with Tasha in this episode to Stuart through his lawyer, including Tasha's allegations of abuse by Stuart. They declined to comment on anything. Coming up, in 2009, Stuart starts The Oath Keepers. He definitely would target people who had issues, PTSD issues, a lot of people who had drug addictions.

They tended to do a lot of MMA, they did a lot of shooting, but they were all people who viewed themselves as the great family man, the great protector.

As I said at the top of the show, we are in a period where policies, norms, and stated goals at the federal level are changing at a breakneck pace. If you are someone who thinks something about your life has been or could be affected, we want to hear about it. Record a voice memo and send it to us at deathsexmoneyatslate.com.

Now, I covered politics before I started Death, Sex and Money and learned long ago that there is a gap between what you read in the news about what politicians say they want to do and what actually ends up happening. And even figuring out what is actually happening can be an enormous reporting project, particularly when it's about federal policy and how it ultimately ends up working on the ground in local communities.

That's why a book that just came out about a green energy development in Montana and what happened to block it caught my attention. A rancher wanted to put up some wind turbines on his property to make some more cash because the cattle business was so tough, he wasn't sure he was going to be able to hang on to his family land.

But his neighbors objected and sued. And those neighbors happened to be millionaires and billionaires who had bought surrounding land to be sort of a mountain refuge. Trophy ranches, as they're called.

The book is called The Crazies, The Cattlemen, The Wind Prospector, and a War Out West by Amy Gammerman. And she does a remarkable job telling this story, including how this latest fight is all happening on land long held sacred by Crow people. Though the American West is not a place

is not a place that she is from. - Yeah, what is this nice Jewish girl from New York doing in the calving barn? Trotting around the cow patties in the pasture.

I liked Amy's book so much when I read an early copy that I asked if I could narrate the audiobook. And they said yes. And in our Slate Plus feed this week, you can hear an excerpt of that audiobook and more from Amy about how this story about money, green energy goals, and local realities played out in this lawsuit between neighbors. This is about the end of community.

If you are not already a member of Slate Plus, get on it. It's easy to get these special drops that we make for you. You can sign up on Apple Podcasts or Spotify on the Death, Sex & Money show page or go to slate.com slash DSM Plus. And remember, Slate Plus members also get ad-free listening to all Slate podcasts. This is Death, Sex & Money from Slate. I'm Michael Loinger. And I'm Anna Sale. Can I ask you just a really basic question?

what was the oath? So Oath Keepers is, the oath is based on the idea that everybody in the military, even post office workers, even lawyers, police officers have all had to swear an oath by law, have to swear an oath to the Constitution before they can go into office. And so the idea is that sometimes these guys swear an oath to protect and defend the Constitution and they're not doing it. And it's,

It's a pretty easy sales pitch, you know, right out of the gate, right? Especially timing-wise, we're talking about the end of the Ron Paul movement, not too far off in time from the Occupy movement. And so his original pitch, which is how he pitched it to me, was very much this idea of what if police in particular had a support group, fellow officers who...

they could go to if they saw corruption. That they could say, hey, you know, things are going crazy in my department. They're not acting right, and I don't know what to do. And they would offer legal counsel and, you know, just back up. Like, just, like, imagining when you said when he pitched it to me, I'm picturing, like, I have this idea. Like, it starts. Like, do you think you were the first person he talked to about it? So, yeah.

We were at a Ron Paul event. It's when he was doing some legal work for the Ron Paul campaign, 2008, I guess it was. We were in Pahrump, Nevada, and he went outside to talk with some veterans. And, you know, by then I have a million kids, so I'm just entertaining kids is all I'm doing at these things. And...

He comes back in with a notebook with some names written down. And he said, there's a kid out there, a returned veteran from Afghanistan. He had some ideas for names. And there's a whole list of names. And one of the names on it was Oath Keepers. And I said, we'll just stop right there. That's the name. That is the name. It doesn't really matter. I said, that name is so marketable. It's just a good name.

You said that you're playing with the kids at this event and then you're like, that's it. Yeah, that's the name. I said, that's marketable. It could be a cigar club. It doesn't matter. It could be a cigar club. It could be a motorcycle club. I could see it on jackets. Sell t-shirts. People are going to love it. In the first couple years of the Oath Keepers, Tasha helped out a lot. She was selling t-shirts. She was answering emails and posting on the blog. She really wanted them to succeed.

Maybe she was naive, but Tasha says she understood the Oath Keepers as the opposite of what it would become. That this was a group who would root out corruption, racism, demagoguery, and the military, police departments, and so on. Tasha didn't think any of the political organizing was dangerous. But others saw it for what it was, especially as Stewart's profile grew.

Tasha remembers an early interview when Stewart was invited on MSNBC in 2009 to be a guest on Hardball with Chris Matthews. And Chris Matthews said, I think you want a war. So you're putting people together on a kind of a war footing, preparing them to be vigilant, to be ready to challenge the imposition of foreign troops in this country, the creation of concentration. You know what I think you're up to is creating a mindset. I heard some people the other day talking about

the battle. We have to keep the battle going. You want to have people in a militant environment where they think militantly with this sense of perhaps taking steps at some point against the government or not taking orders or in some way rebelling. I don't think Stuart's ever been called out so accurately. So early. Yeah, so early. And did you, as like his wife at the time who also feels, I don't know what your mix of feelings were about him at that time, were you...

Were you, was it like satisfying to watch him be called out? Was it, were you feeling, did you feel protective of him? Like what? I felt angry. A part of me was like, am I mad because there's some truth to this? I was afraid there might be truth to it. And I really, really didn't want there to be truth to it. And it made me even more sort of focused and determined. Like I've really got to hover over this thing and keep it.

on this path. And, but I had a lot of fear myself at that time. Like, oh man, cause I, you know, you know, I know what Stuart is underneath, you know, and I, and I keep thinking that deep down at his core, he's a good person. But then there were a couple of things that happened in our personal life around that time, 2010 and then 2012, that, that

I just sort of stepped away from all of it. And my whole facade fell apart. You know, my life, his life is all politics and what he's doing. And my life was all babies. You know, at that time I had a miscarriage. And, you know, again, not going to doctors, just going into midwives and stuff. And, you know, he pulled this stunt where he basically orchestrated suicide.

a board of directors call during my midwife appointment to see if I was losing the baby or not. And it turned out I was. And he used the baby, me losing the baby as sort of

a tool and, and the board of directors not voting him into a forced hiatus because he was sort of acting unhinged even around them. And, you know, he put his phone on speaker while we're finding out that we're losing the baby and, oh, look guys, we lost the baby. It was, it was like me and like 10 guys in the, basically on speakerphone while I'm learning that my baby, and I had a pretty serious physical reaction to, to that miscarriage. Um,

I almost died. And he just left me bleeding out on the floor, you know, and just walked away and made the kids, you know, help me to walk again. And it was...

It was a real shake-up moment because I always told myself that deep down under the surface, Stuart is a kind, loving person with this gruff exterior. And when it really, really counted and I really needed it, this kind person would show itself. And then when I really needed it, he's just irritated that I'm, you know, staining the carpet with blood. And then again, two years later, I had a full-term little girl who didn't live. And it was the same thing again. He didn't care, and...

That was the very, very ending of thinking that he had any type of emotion whatsoever toward other people. And it changed the story for you about what your obligation was to him. It changed everything. It was sort of a whole other mourning process because I realized, I mean, I lost my husband because he,

Because the person I thought was my husband never actually existed. Everything I thought he was was entirely made up, really. You know, his actions certainly never backed that up. I just believed beyond reason that there was a true loving, kind person under the surface of this extreme damage and abuse and all the things he's suffered. But there really was no one under there, you know.

So that was hard. That was a hard process. Coming up, Tasha leaves Stuart and watches The Oath Keepers on TV on January 6th, storming the Capitol. Tasha started seriously thinking about leaving Stuart in 2016. By that point, they had six kids, all of whom she was homeschooling.

Some of the younger children didn't even have social security numbers or birth certificates. Stewart, she says, kept at least 20 guns in the house. To him, the apocalypse seemed to be just around the corner. And at the children's urging, Tasha began secretly saving money. The older kids helped out where they could. And two years later, they managed to escape and find a lawyer to help with divorce proceedings.

By that time, Trump was president, and Stewart's beliefs, once confined to the fringes, were starting to gain more mainstream credibility. Can I ask about January 6th? Yep. And what were you doing? January 6th, glued to my laptop.

On January 6th, 2021, she was watching the attack on the Capitol from home, like the rest of us. The Oath Keepers, a far-right paramilitary group, are also here. They're organized, staging their military-style equipment neatly on the ground. And later, they put on body armor, talk on radios.

and chat with their supporters on a walkie-talkie app called Zello. Tasha noticed a line of men and women wearing battle rattle and Oathkeeper patches moving through the crowd. You know, there's nobody else, you know, that's not the Proud Boys. They don't run around with, you know, full military gear and helmets and, you know, even just right down to the types of radios. I knew that was Stewart's people.

And then it, you know, kind of even reverted to my own programming where I thought, oh, maybe they went off, you know, they went off mission. They must have been on a mission. Stuart wouldn't want them to do this, right? You know, and that thought was like about a half a second long where it's like, oh, what am I thinking? That's, you know, the Stuart talk. And you're just like taking this in on your phone and on your laptop by yourself. Are you talking to anybody? The kids are in and out, you know, and oh, my God, this was all Stuart. Right.

Maybe this was all Stuart, you know, and then, you know, Dakota's got his, what is happening? You know, Dakota gets up, comes in with his laptop. Do you see this? Do you see that? Yeah, I see it. And that's when we realized, you know, the extent of it, or at least everything that was known at that point. And it became sort of a reveal day by day, like how instrumental Stuart really was in this. When did you start hearing from reporters? Yeah.

So it definitely started right after J6. I started talking with a lot more press for sure, and it was kind of slow. Like I was really guarded about the kind of stuff I would talk about initially. And even listening to my original interviews, it's almost like a really different perspective. Like if you read the LA Times article, it's really clear. I'm telling this man it's all my fault, and he's just writing down it's all her fault. Yeah.

Headline. It's all her fault. What was all your fault? All of it. Oath keepers, Stuart. Because you hadn't prevented it? Yeah. You know, people died that day. And I, you know, the first words out of my mouth were, I helped start this. I helped start this. It turned into that. And people died that day. And would this have happened had I not supported Stuart? You know, I guess that's impossible to trace, but.

You could say Stuart was going to become a two-bit criminal with or without a YALA degree. Maybe he would have hurt people in some other way. Maybe he would have been some other type of criminal. Maybe he just would have been somebody easily recognizable as a dirtbag had I not been back there, you know. Let's fix you up. Through me, he learned how to deceive people a little better, I think, because he learned how he was supposed to be.

In 2023, a federal jury agreed that Stuart Rhodes was responsible for his group's role on January 6th. He, along with five other Oath Keepers, were found guilty of sedition. Stuart testified in his own defense and said that the Oath Keepers were at the Capitol to provide security to Trump supporters and that there was no plan to storm it. Tasha was actually asked to testify in the trial, but she was never called, and the thought of it had been terrifying.

I just didn't want to see him. I mean, that was the main thing. I didn't want to walk past him. You know, there's no way. He's going to leap up from that table and strangle me before they can get to me. That's all I could think, really. That was my main thing, is there's no way I'm going to get past him. But yeah, I followed very closely. I think the reason I didn't wind up coming in is because he did such a terrible job in his own, when he testified. It was really bad. It was really, really, really bad.

I wasn't sure how it was going to go because he sees himself as this showman and, you know, get up there and talk. Come on, kids, let's rap about this. You know, let's all talk. Oh, yeah, let's discuss. He loves that kind of stuff. You know, he's basically like a 1980s television guy. I mean, that's how he grew up. That's how he grew up. His whole family was public speaking and multilevel marketing seminars and, you know, and...

The problem with that sort of feign honesty, let's just talk, you know, is it looks like it could be honest. But if you're going to put that up against reality, you can see the difference and you realize what a gifted liar this person is. So that was really fascinating to me because I knew we were going to see that, you know, TV face Stewart.

But he's always been able to pick and choose his audience. So that was really interesting to see him with people who are not his choice people. You know, he chooses the people who are around them very carefully. He chooses who works for him. We were constantly moved every year to change his audience. But for the first time ever, he's having to do his thing in front of an audience who just witnessed the real him.

Tasha was watching so closely because she also wanted to know how long Stuart might be put away. I was really nervous, but I really, on a personal level, I really needed that seditious conspiracy my youngest kids ate. You know, I need him in there 10 more years. You know, just on a purely personal level, that's what I feel like I need. I need him to stay locked away for the next 10 years so my kids can legally cut contact with him.

And for Tasha, the prospect of prison time for Stuart made her feel like a different person. Well, for one, I could sleep. And that sounds silly, but I was so sleep-deprived. Just being able to think, being able to just interact with my kids, have my kids in school, enjoying the world. Putting the kids in school was huge. It changed everything.

I live in this town, you know, and I lived just barely outside of this town before. I didn't even know where the high school was. I didn't know where anything in the town was. I never came here, you know, and never interacted with people. And it just, and I'm still, even though it's been so long, it's just like uncovering, uncovering every day the layers. I'm in my kid's, my 10-year-old's bedroom. So it's got that closet look. Yeah.

It's cool. The video we're not going to use. Yeah. And thank you for painting a picture for listeners. This is one of those shots where you just know if the camera pans, it's disaster on all sides. When we reconnected with Tasha a few days before Trump's inauguration in 2025, she was warm, laughed a lot in a familiar way, but things felt fragile.

She and her children had just started to rebuild. They were all in therapy. Her oldest son, Dakota, ran for office in the Montana legislature as a Democrat. He lost, but Tasha was proud of his effort. Tasha's life, since we'd talked, had become more private. She said she left the coffee shop because it was too public-facing and now works cleaning a medical facility. It's long, hard physical work.

And she doesn't have a car. Her old one broke down and she didn't have money to fix it, so she walks. She's had a lot of time to wonder what she would do if Stuart got out of prison. We filled out our passports and, you know, Canada's right there. Maybe just take a trip or maybe move to a place with a judge that's a little more, you know,

with different ideas than the candidate. You mean like a local judge where you live in Montana, you're not sure you would be protected as the former wife of somebody who's described abuse. Is that what you're saying? Yes, that's what I'm saying, yeah. So you worry you wouldn't be safe if he were pardoned and released from prison? Well, I don't know. I mean, probably not. I mean, we're probably not safe now, to be honest with you. I do think there's...

There's some, you know, I'd like to think he would try to stay on the straight and narrow for a little while at least to then focus on rebuilding. He's already rebuilding Oath Keepers right now. He's doing interviews. He's writing a substack from prison. You know, but I think initially the worry is more about him having access to his people, more concerned about his, some of his followers.

you know, trying to harm us. How are you and the kids? Like, how are your kids and how's being a mom right now? Like, what's it, how are you all doing as a family? Life is pretty normal, you know, but, you know, everyone has CPTSD. It just leaves its mark.

you know, the older kids still deal with, the younger kids still deal with it and some do better in some ways. And, you know, some, but you know what, they, they, my kids are really something I'm really happy about and really proud of them is that they are so good at supporting each other. They help each other out. And yeah. And especially because they have different strengths and they, they really do hold each other up. They help each other out with, you know,

oh, I got to fill out this job application. Or someone who's good at that shows up, let's put them all on the table. Let's fill them out, you know. Or someone who's better at taxes, what do I do? You know, somebody else will do that. Or, you know, or, you know, even just little things like holidays or being festive or making decorations. I mean, they help each other with all that kind of stuff. And part of that's me because I always don't let

Look, one of these days I'm going to be dead. You guys got to talk to each other. Just talk to me. And what about Dakota? He ran for state house, right? Yeah. Can you tell us about that? What was that like? That was really fun. That was really fun. I mean...

you know he didn't expect to win and some sometimes people on twitter were like oh he went no one no that really wasn't you know it's an 80 republican district it wasn't gonna win but he really did reach a lot of he did really well i think i think he got 20 or more which is you know more than that was his goal all along was like 20 i think it was pretty close to that um

And when he was campaigning, did he talk about what your family went through? Was that, was that, that was part of his pitch? He did. Um, but mostly it was to make people understand that he understood that viewpoint. It was more of, um, like, I know where you're coming from. And he kind of, kind of played into a little bit of that kind of populist mindset or that individualist mindset. And, um,

You know, a lot of people really liked him. I mean, a lot of people who always voted Republican, you know, said, you know what, I'm going to vote for you. You know, just because he went door-to-door in a leather jacket. Tasha and Dakota have kept in touch with journalists through the election campaign season and leading up to Trump's inauguration. They are both in a new documentary that just came out. It's called King of the Apocalypse. Wow.

You know, it's kind of a joke among the kids, calling him King of the Apocalypse, you know, calling Stuart that. Oh, that's a family nickname? Yeah. Kind of a joke. It's mostly starring Dakota, I think. You know, it's about Stuart, but Dakota's kind of the hero, I believe.

That's Tasha Adams. There's a link to the trailer of King of the Apocalypse in our show notes. And if you want to send Tasha a note, email us at deathsexmoneyatslate.com and we'll pass it on. Thank you for working with us on this, Micah. Yeah, thank you.

This episode was produced by me, Anna Sale, Micah Lowinger, and Zoe Ajule. You can hear Micah every week on WNYC's On the Media, where he's a co-host. Death, Sex, and Money is produced by Slate. Please support our team by becoming a member of Slate Plus. You get ad-free listening to our show and special Slate Plus-only drops every week.

like my conversation this week with Amy Gammerman about her book on present-day Montana and a bit of my recording of that audiobook. ♪

Here's a little tease. The excerpt ends with me getting to say, let's start this son of a bitch. You can subscribe to Slate Plus directly on the Death, Sex and Money show page, on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify, or go to slate.com slash DSM Plus to get access wherever you listen. Our team also includes Andrew Dunn and Cameron Drews. Daisy Rosario is our senior supervising producer at Slate. Hilary Fry is Slate's editor-in-chief.

Our theme music is by the Reverend John DeLure and Steve Lewis. If you are new to our show, welcome. We're glad you're here. You can find us and follow us on Instagram at DeathSexMoney. And I write a weekly newsletter. You can subscribe at annasale.substack.com. You can also reach us anytime with voice memos, pep talks, questions, or critiques at our email address, deathsexmoneyatslate.com. We love hearing from you.

I'm Anna Sale, and this is Death, Sex and Money from Slate. Thanks for listening to the Midweek Podcast. On the big show this weekend, we'll look at how the Trump administration is attempting to distort and erase American history to serve their agenda in the present. In the meantime, you can follow On The Media on Blue Sky, Instagram, TikTok, and our subreddit, r slash On The Media. Thanks for listening. I'm Michael Olinger.

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