Sarah Silverman on Being Wrong – and Treating Trolls with Kindness (from ReThinking with Adam Grant)
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Hi, folks, and happy holidays. The on-team is off, so today we're going to play you an episode of my friend Adam Grant's podcast, Rethinking. In this episode, Adam speaks with the hilarious and wonderful comedian, actor, and writer Sarah Silverman. They talk about Silverman's winding career from Saturday Night Live to Seinfeld to Broadway, late-night TV, and even Disney animated movies.

And they have a really great conversation about diffusing anger and forging connections, even when we don't see eye to eye, that is perfect for this time of year. Enjoy. Support for On With Care Swisher comes from Elf Beauty.

Get ready to start with feeling good. An ELF's new album can help you find the spark. Get Ready With Music, the album, is a collection of inspiring songs from emerging global artists that brings together beauty and music in a unique way. The album comes from ELF Beauty's new entertainment arm, ELF Made. Every eye, lip, and face has a unique story to tell, and it becomes even richer with a soundtrack. You can enjoy Get Ready With Music, the album, on Spotify, Apple Music, iHeart, YouTube, and TikTok.

Support for this show comes from Google Gemini, an AI assistant you can talk to anytime you need help brainstorming, prepping for something important like an interview or exam, or just learning something new. And the best part is, you already know how to use it. Just open the app, start talking, and Gemini will do the rest. And by the way, this script was actually read by Gemini. You can download the Gemini app for free on iOS or Android. Must be 18 plus to use Gemini Live. Support for this show comes from Klaviyo.

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My experience of life is more important to me than the idea of legacy or like I'll be dead. I don't know. I'm trying to really find joy in life. And if I can be funny as well, that's great. And if I can't, I'm still going to choose being okay over despair or misplaced anger or needing to prove something.

Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking, my podcast on the science of what makes us tick with the TED Audio Collective. I'm an organizational psychologist, and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.

My guest today is comedian Sarah Silverman. I've been a fan ever since I first saw her on Seinfeld and SNL in the 90s, and my kids love her as Vanellope in Wreck-It Ralph. She hosts the Sarah Silverman podcast and is touring the U.S. this fall and winter for her new show, Postmortem. Sarah's a rare comic who makes me laugh hard and think hard. Her latest HBO special, Someone You Love, cracked me up.

I was excited to talk with Sarah about courage, compassion, and her shockingly effective approach to engaging with jerks. As you'll see, she's unusually candid. Sarah Silverman, how often do people tell you that you are one of their top four favorite comedians? Now more often than ever. Okay, my kids also want to know, is it possible that you can do this entire conversation in character as Vanellope? I mean, I'll try.

Your face is so sweet. So good. I love it. I'll try it, but I've got to pick Slexi. One of the things that I've admired most about you, Sarah, is your boldness. You say things that I would be afraid to think, let alone speak. And I want to know how you got that way. I had a...

a father who thought it was hilarious to teach his toddler swears. He didn't do it with all my sisters, but with me, he did. And we were at Boys Market in Manchester, New Hampshire, and I just screamed out all these swears he had taught me, and I was three. And the experience of all these adults around me

giving me wild affirmation despite themselves, an addiction was born. I remember just feeling this kind of glee that made my arms itch. I found this gift I had been given by my father where I could shock grownups, but they would not get mad. They would laugh.

It created a monster and a skill. I mean, since I was six, I was going to sleepover camp while I was a bedwetter till I was about 16. So it was awful for me. It was a lesson in total disassociation. But I remember making some friends and I loved Mork and Mindy and I had and I loved Robin Williams and I had the big rainbow suspenders that I thought were so cool.

and I wore them over my camp uniform. And these girls were...

kind of a click and they were like these cool girls and they're like, oh, we love your suspenders. And I'm like, aren't they cool? You know, and then we went on a hike and they were kind of behind me and I could hear them like giggling and making fun of me a little bit. And then I turned around and I said, are you guys making fun of me because of my suspenders? Are they not cool? I just said it, blurted it out.

And it's really like, if it's mentionable, it's manageable, like Mr. Rogers, because they became my friends. Like, they laughed at me, and they saw that they could laugh at me in front of me. Which I hope made it more laughing with you. If I could be included, even if they're laughing at me, I was thrilled, especially because that made me the center. That was a really good lesson, you know? I could have stayed in my head, heard them snickering about me and making fun of me,

and internalized it. There's some kind of martial arts, and I only learned about it on like season five of Walking Dead or something, where you use the force coming towards you. Does that ring a bell? I just thought maybe you'd know what it's called. Is that what jujitsu is? Yeah. You know, so someone's running at you with all their force, and you use that force, their own inertia or force. Exactly. It's jujitsu. You're using people's force directly.

not against them, but for them. So Sarah, a few years ago, I got to see a different side of you when you replied to an internet troll.

He called me a cunt. I mean, I don't usually read comments just out of self-preservation, but of course, sometimes I do. And I saw it and it was something mean, you know, whatever. And I was walking my dog, I remember actually. And I clicked on his profile and I read some of his tweets and I saw that he had severe back pain and I totally relate to that. And so I responded just...

just connecting with him on that. I don't know. And then we just started connecting and then we moved to direct message and most of our relationship was there. There are a bunch of things that I just found extraordinary about this story. The first one is I can't even imagine wanting to engage with this person. It's truly irrelevant because it

has nothing to do with me at all. If it were personal, if he said I was an unfunny cunt, then it would tinge a little bit. You know. What motivated you to look at his timeline? I'm always curious. I'm always curious if I see something very hateful or just kind of base-ish.

I'm curious to see the person behind it a little bit, whatever that avatar is. And so often it's, I love my country and God is number one. It's very ironic. But I also am familiar with rage and I'm familiar with the feeling of pain and the very unconscious desire to want to inflict the same pain on somebody right away.

whoever's in front of you. And I mean, that's something my dad had to deal with and he did not so well and then very well. And then I've had a lot of opportunity and resources to deal with myself.

And so I can find a way in. I feel connected to that because I recognize it. It's so unusual, especially in this era, right, for you to see that kind of behavior and say, all right, not only am I going to empathize with this person, but I'm going to respond with compassion, right?

I'm just going to read to you what you wrote because I went and looked it up. Oh, my God. You found it. Of course I found it. I do my homework. I'm on the edge of my seat. Oh, God. Okay. Ready? Here's what you said. In response to him insulting you, I believe in you. I read your timeline and I see what you're doing and your rage is thinly veiled pain. But you know that. I know this feeling. P.S. My back fucking sucks too. See what happens when you choose love. I see it in you.

You know, the fraud part of me goes, I don't know, someone with like a Messiah complex. This exists in a lot of comedians because, and in the unhealthy version, when you're a comic and everyone's laughing and there's one person not laughing, that's the only person you care about making laugh. And I don't think that's healthy. I think it's better to see all these people listening and watching and laughing and joyful and open.

But you see that one closed person or the one, you know, whatever, and you're laser focused on it. I believe that 100% of comics become funny as a means of surviving childhood. And so often those things that we learn are things that we really need to unlearn in adulthood if they don't serve us anymore. But because it's our career, it serves us. But it's, you know, something to navigate. There are comics that don't want to be happy because...

They're afraid they won't be funny. And I might be the perfect example of that one way or another, because, of course, there's people online going, remember when you used to be funny? There are people that find me very funny now. But there is something about that fire that is good. And it's finding a balance, I guess. Look, I think everybody is vulnerable to a white knight complex at some point. It's hard for me to imagine, though, that you really crave the approval of an Internet troll.

And I still think it counts as a meaningful act of kindness that you reached out to this person. And you didn't stop there. You had a whole conversation with him. And he apologized to you. And you ended up offering to pay his medical bills. And you developed this friendship. And I don't think you should be so dismissive of it. And I think the reason why you're bringing this up now, I have a little bit of a heavy heart is because we lost touch. I couldn't find him. And I was just left...

I don't know what happened to him. Well, Jeremy, if you're listening, Sarah Silverman is looking for you. Support for On with Kara Swisher comes from Elf Beauty.

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Support for this show comes from Google Gemini. Imagine an AI assistant that doesn't just spit out answers, but that you can have a real conversation with. You can use Gemini to brainstorm ideas, prepare for something big like a test or presentation, or to just learn something new. And the best part is, it's easy to use. To get started, all you need to do is start talking. And by the way, this script was actually read by Gemini.

You can download the Gemini app on iOS or Android free of charge. Must be 18 plus to use Gemini Live. Support for this show comes from Klaviyo. You're building a business. Klaviyo helps you grow it.

Klaviyo's AI-powered marketing platform puts all your customer data, plus email, SMS, and analytics in one place. With Klaviyo, tinned fish phenom Fishwife delivers real-time, personalized experiences that keeps their customers hooked. They've grown 70 times revenue in just four years with Klaviyo. Now that's scale. Visit klaviyo.com to learn how brands like Fishwife build smarter digital relationships with Klaviyo.

Jeremy gave an interview a couple weeks later and he said, I was once a giving and nice person, but too many things destroyed that and I became bitter and hateful. Then Sarah showed me the way. Don't get me wrong, I still got a long way to go, but it's a start. I just think our purpose is taking care of each other. If we can realize that, boy, I mean, I just think we'd all be happier. I just looked at that and thought, I wonder if this can scale. Could more people do this?

I wonder how much of it mattered because you're famous. And if he had been interacting with a random person, would it have had the same impact on him? Would he have stopped and said, huh,

Like there's a real person there. I think it would have. It's energy. And it's not just because I moved to California. I think it's science. It's not subjective. It's subjective. Energy exists. And I mean, they do say it cannot be created nor destroyed. Thermodynamics. I did not expect a thermodynamics reference in this conversation. But it can be changed.

And I did have an experience of changing energy with a guy who was screaming at me outside of a weed store. He said that I bumped into his car with my car and I consciously thought this is an opportunity to see if I can change this energy because he screamed at me, got out of his car and screamed at me. And then my heart was pounding and it was converting into rage. And I just said, hold on, I can catch this energy or I can try to change it.

And by the end, we hugged and we were laughing and it was so successful. It was clear that his rage was not created from me. I...

I really did not touch his car when I was parking. I didn't even kiss it, but he had decided. Whatever was going on with him, he needed this, you know? You, you went right into my car. And, uh, oh, and he said, and you're a woman, so I can't even do anything about it. Like, well, you're gonna punch me? And I got out and I go, show me the damage because I'm gonna pay for this. I'm gonna make this right.

And he goes, don't forget it. I said, no, I want to see. I'm going to pay for this. I'm a woman of means and I'm responsible and I'm going to pay for this. He goes, forget it. Just don't worry about it. It's fine. You know, there was no scratch. But so he backed off of that. And I said, well, I'm going to the pot store and I'm going to buy you pot. What's your preference? He goes, you don't have to do that. I go, I'm doing it.

And he goes, the full body one. I go, indica. Okay. I go into the pot store and I'm standing in line.

And I get him a big indica, like, spliff, and I'm getting some other things. And I'm still in line, and the security guard there said, hey, the meter person is stopping. You're going to get a ticket. And I go, shit. And then he goes, oh, that guy that was yelling at you is putting change in your meter. And I go, oh, you know, like, I just...

It was a love language. And I said, can you believe this? We were enemies and now we're best friends. And I just, I left there beaming. It's such a sweet story. I do feel like if this were your standup routine, you would have been like, and then I found out I gave him COVID and he totally deserved it. And he passed away. Okay, there's a pattern here, which is you respond to these people who are nasty and aggressive by being aggressively kind. Yeah.

Yeah. And it works. It reaches them. People are just in so much pain and have no tools. You know, I play Call of Duty. This is probably not healthy at all. It doesn't, I don't know that it's doing anything good for me, but lately it's, this is what I enjoy.

And I've always played like just with bots. And then I started playing with real people, but I'm on mute and they're on mute. And then I put, I unmuted the people and they were like 14 year old going, fucking kill yourself, dude. And I just screaming at me because I suck. Oh no. It's a very dark place. I mean, we were saying,

really a lot of language that you don't hear in polite society anymore. The game will be over and then all the scores are up and you can see who's talking and what their score is. And I'm always last, almost always last. And I'll go, you know what? Whatever score you got, you guys, I'm so proud of all of you. We should all be proud. And then they see who's saying it and they're so mad. And for some reason it tickles me, which is another side of me, I guess. Yeah.

I think what you're doing, there's a foundation for it in psychology, right? Which is what most people do is they meet aggression with aggression. And then it spirals. And you're diffusing it by countering their expectations, making them feel seen and understood. And all of a sudden, there's nothing to hit. They're showing me that they are craving care. I'm reminded of a riot experiment. I think this was on League of Legends, right?

where they have all these players who are contributing to toxic chat, basically. And they create a tribunal where when people report a player for toxic behavior, they just display the chat logs to the community and then people vote on whether the person's behavior is toxic.

And through this self-policing system, they're able to get a lot of these people to reform because they see their reputation. Like, oh, wow. Like, I'm not proud of the way that I acted. And a lot of people end up apologizing for it. And so it makes me wonder, like, is there a next step here where you say, okay, the first part is to show the person kindness, who's being cruel. The second part is to show them the pattern of behavior they built up.

Like, here's your chat log. Here's your timeline. This is the way you're showing up in the world. Is that who you want to be? Is that how you want to be seen? And for most people, the answer is hell no. I don't know. I just, I find a lot of success in gestures of care. And, you know, is that a form of manipulation? Yeah, maybe.

I mean, if it is, it's the healthiest manipulation I can think of. I remember like the kind of new wave of feminism and trying to appeal to straight men to be feminists as going like, you're going to get so much pussy. Like if you're, you know, like you're at like feminist marches and stuff, you know? Yeah. You don't really want to draw people in that way.

For the wrong reasons. It's like The Bachelor. You don't want to be there for the wrong reasons. I think some people would look at this kind of outreach that you've done and say that you're too empathetic and too forgiving.

What's the downside? Well, if trolls are using aggression to get attention, is there a risk that you're reinforcing the behavior? Right. Like are people now calling me a cunt online to try to connect? I hope that hasn't happened. 99% of that is I don't respond to or and a lot of it I don't see. But maybe, I don't know.

Yeah, I don't know. And if that's how you choose to operate and your hope is that that kindness then is going to be paid forward, it seems like an investment in creating a more respectful community or at least planting those seeds of a different kind of behavior. And that seems to be an investment worth making. Yeah, well, good energy is also catchy. It may be a...

A couple digits less can't you the negative energy. But that means we need more of it. Listen, I'm not a perfect driver and I mess up a lot. And what I've noticed is when they come up next to me, I'm already there waiting for them going, I'm so sorry. Or I'll roll down and go, I'm a terrible driver. I'm so sorry. And I mean, it diffuses it immediately. It's pretty wild. Or even like if someone honks at me like, or something,

One thing I'll do, and this is not nice and it's very manipulative, is I will look in my rearview mirror at them and pretend to recognize them like I know them and go, you know, and then they are immediately terrified and horrified because you wouldn't do that to someone you know. It's fun.

I really like that. That is a way of holding up a mirror so they can see their own reflection and not like what is staring back at them. I had a boyfriend once and we were fighting via email, back and forth, back and forth. And I have three sisters. So while it's happening, this big fight,

I'm forwarding to my sisters all the back and forths because I need them to weigh in. And I accidentally one time forwarded it to him. And then he wrote back, I see that you're sending all this to your sisters. And I said, you know what? Talk to me as though all of my sisters can hear. That's how I want you to treat me. Is that when the relationship ended?

No, I actually roamed on for a few more years. There's a Curb episode on this. It's the accidental text on purpose. You could have planned this instead of just botching the message. No, I was like, my heart was like, oh my God, you know, that phrase and then you're like, oh my God. But in the end, I was just like, no, I want you to have people you talk to about this, even if you're representing it from your skewed perspective. Yeah.

I don't know if this is true, but it seems like men have fewer people that they talk to about their relationship, about what's going on in their lives. And I just think people need that. I went on one date with my boyfriend.

my current boyfriend, we've been together for four years, and was turned off for whatever reason, my own shit. And then I was FaceTiming with my best friend since high school, and I'm telling her everything, and I'm telling it from my perspective. And she just listened to it, and then she just goes, you're a fucking asshole. And I was like, what? She's like, you're so judgmental. Like, can you even imagine how, he was probably nervous. He was probably, you know, whatever. And

If I didn't have that, if I didn't have that sounding board, I wouldn't be with this person that is my person. That's my family, you know, now. That is such a good example of a friend not just being a support network, but also a challenge network. And I love that there's a relationship that's strong enough where somebody can just call you out directly on that. Part of my living as a comedian is being flawed. To me, it's like,

A massive relief to be, to realize I'm wrong. You don't even have to admit that you were wrong to say, I'm sorry for the impact my behavior had on you. Oh, that's so great. Yeah.

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Support for this show comes from Google Gemini. Imagine an AI assistant that doesn't just spit out answers, but that you can have a real conversation with. You can use Gemini to brainstorm ideas, prepare for something big like a test or presentation, or to just learn something new. And the best part is, it's easy to use. To get started, all you need to do is start talking. And by the way, this script was actually read by Gemini.

You can download the Gemini app on iOS or Android free of charge. Must be 18 plus to use Gemini Live. Support for this show comes from Klaviyo. You're building a business. Klaviyo helps you grow it.

Klaviyo's AI-powered marketing platform puts all your customer data, plus email, SMS, and analytics in one place. With Klaviyo, tinned fish phenom Fishwife delivers real-time, personalized experiences that keeps their customers hooked. They've grown 70 times revenue in just four years with Klaviyo. Now that's scale. Visit klaviyo.com to learn how brands like Fishwife build smarter digital relationships with Klaviyo.

Are you up for lightning? Yeah. What is the worst advice you've ever gotten? My dad, who became my best friend, but was a very angry, unhinged, ragey young dad. If I cried, he would say, only babies cry. Please don't think of my father that way. He had an incredible turnaround in his older life. But that's how he dealt with tears. Wow. Yeah. How about best advice?

Only babies cry. No. I'm thinking of something my mom said after being hurt by a man. And I was just devastated. And we were walking in New York. She came to visit me. And she said something like, don't learn to protect yourself from that because love is worth risking everything.

That kind of pain. It was something I couldn't imagine in that moment that I would ever get over this person, which is thinking of it now is insane. But of course, that's the joy of time. Sage advice. Charlie Kaufman said, don't fear failure. Wear failure as a badge of honor. It means you risked failure. Here's one that I know will be easy for you. What is an unpopular opinion you currently hold? Oh, wow.

I will say I'm right now enjoying Call of Duty, and I don't know why I get joy out of this, but the haptics of killing, it's just like this little vibration from the controller when you kill someone. And it's...

incredibly satisfying and I don't understand it. I'm really hoping it's the haptics of success, not of killing. Oh, that makes sense. I won the game. What's a prediction you have for the future of comedy? Comedy always finds a way. I'm not worried about comedy. There's just such brilliant stuff out there and it's exciting and it's important for someone like me who's getting older to

to be connected to it and not be out of touch. I mean, you can see when comics become very successful, they either stay in touch and grow and change, or they become caricatures of this once popular thing, or they become totally out of touch. They're not shopping for groceries for themselves anymore. They're not doing for themselves. They're not living a life that is necessarily relatable anymore.

So, you know, I love comedy. I'm a comedian is who I am. I'm assuming you've seen Tim Robinson. I think you should leave. I haven't. Should I? It is so brilliant and so funny and like nothing I've seen before. Yeah. I'm excited to check it out. Oh, I can't wait. Like, will you email me and let me know? It's it's really something. What is a question you have for me?

I didn't know this was a part of it. You don't have to ask one. What? I just, I always feel bad hogging the mic. What brought you to where you are? What made you interested in all this stuff? What was your inciting incident in seeking more? One of the pivotal moments for me was just being a really shy, introverted kid.

And struggling with first making friends and then keeping friends. And I think probably when my entire friend group dropped me in middle school after one of them stole my basketball and denied it. It was such a devastating in the moment. But looking back, fascinating moment of why did this happen? And what do I need to understand about people to make sure it never happens again?

And it turned out to be really useful because it got me thinking about what kind of friend I wanted to be and how I wanted to treat other people. And I think it was a character-building moment. And in the moment when you were a kid, what was that feeling? Were you enraged that your friend wouldn't admit that he took it? And that feeling of being wronged? Oh my God, I see little you right now. I had a lot more hair.

Yeah, I think at first I was confused because why would he do this to me? And then I think it turned into some kind of righteous indignation or moral outrage. And I decided I was not going to let people treat me like that. And if that's who he was, I was going to go find other friends.

I don't want to say I'm glad it happened, but it was a useful experience to go through. Yeah. And I still want the basketball back, Alan, if you're listening. But isn't it funny those things that on their surface seem so silly and really make an imprint on us, you know? Yeah, it still bothers me. I loved watching the emotional arc on your face as I told that story, by the way. I could see in your eyes. I could see little you.

Sarah, before we wrap, I wanted to give you a chance to give us a little preview of your post-mortem tour. What should we expect? It's called post-mortem because it's actually about my dad and my stepmother died a year ago last May, nine days apart. And it's all about it. Just the funny parts. Well, no, all of it. A lot of it. I'm sorry, but also I'm glad you found some humor in it.

Yeah. You know, it's, this is a really soon special for me after the last one, which came out as they were dying. And, you know, it started with my eulogy at my dad's funeral and there was just so much good stuff there. I was like, Oh, this is really good. You know? And, uh, and I don't feel guilty about it because I know that they love it, especially him. And it feels good. There's like a little bit of dread every time I do it, just because it's

fresh-ish and I ache for them. You know, I was very close with them, especially my dad, but really both of them. But it's really nice too. So that's what it is. It's really not political. It's, you know, and I'm on tour, you know, during the election. This is very on brand. Like, you need some help dealing with political stress? I have the perfect antidote for you. Death. We're going to talk about death. That's going to be your escape.

Yeah. Let's talk about lighter things like life and death and things that are guaranteed. Well, Sarah, I don't want to keep you any longer, but I do want to say this has been so fun, so thought provoking and just refreshing more than anything else, because I think you're the only person I've met in a long time who loves email as much as I do. Thank you. I love talking to you. Take care. You too. Bye-bye.

I love Sarah's observation that energy can't be created or destroyed, but it can be changed. Think of it as pro-social jujitsu, taking the anger and rage and pain that people are expressing and trying to convert it and help them channel it towards something that's more constructive for them and for you. We need more of that in the world.

Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is part of the TED Audio Collective. And this episode was produced and mixed by Cosmic Standard. Our producers are Hannah Kingsley-Ma and Asia Simpson. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Original music by Hansel Su and Alison Leighton Brown. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Jacob Winnick, Samaya Adams, Roxanne Heilash, Banban Cheng, Julia Dickerson, and Whitney Pennington-Rogers.

I have no idea what I was saying. What was the topic? Oh my gosh. I don't remember. Please let this be menopause and not dementia.

Support for this show comes from Google Gemini. Using Gemini is as easy as having a conversation. You can interrupt it, add details, ask follow-up questions, and Gemini will adapt to you in real time. But the best way to learn about Gemini is to try it. And by the way, this script was actually read by Gemini. Download the Gemini app for iOS and Android today. Must be 18 plus to use Gemini Live.