AI Girlfriends, Stonks! Roaring Kitty Returns, Trump Biden Debates, & Testosterone Makes You Gay?!
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Rocky, that's quite a statement.

Peace is someone going to fall love, this thing I don't see myself falling in love with in artificially the intelligent being. However, brand, and you did say that where you not married SHE might have got you.

I said I felt the pool of the thing.

Biden is gonna do a debate. I've never seen a presidential debate that wasn't a complete line show.

I think both candidate should do three hours on rogan.

ideally sort of like click baty title is the doctor makes you gay, got a lot people but her but I .

think it's so britain thoughts on the voted out guys .

head into the .

gay bar yeah, he sounds so like almost defeated by this topic.

What's up, guys? Welcome back to the pod. We have an incredible special guest with you to john cogan returning to the pot, say, how did john cogan hat? John, thank you for coming.

Is always we also got for the first time today ever, you probably know from the daily takes, Riley from the power wires team is coming into you a little bit, reporting on roaring Kitty and the whole means stock return, which is exciting. And he's actually want to take about IT this week, but we're going to get them on. We going to talk about IT.

Let just get into the show. First up, we have to talk about A I girlfriends. So IT was a huge deal monday. I guess last friday, we knew that there was going to be some kind of a huge announce cement at OpenAI.

The associated press said he was gonna be a google search competitor and at the time I wrote, you know, probably this isn't true because they don't get anything right. And sam said it's not true. It's going to be something else. But that would be very exciting. I didn't know quite what I was.

I was hoping that was going to be poor not because I want IT, but because I think that's gonna really interesting for the discourse once a OpenAI starts uh generating like endless amounts of porn which they're planning on allowing people to do um but what IT wasn't instead with something we all kind of have been waiting for and then finally saw, which was if you've seen the movie here IT, was that it's like an A I assistant that sounds like a person that can interact with your physical world in terms of, well, maybe not interact with physical world that can look at your physical world and understand IT and speak to you and reason and uh pretty soon it's going to be able to do things for you um so I mean, I am speculating but what I would love is in A I assistant that can go through my emails and tell me like when I talked to so and so and get me this piece of paperwork, fill IT out for me, sort of do minimal tasks so like what about order me ubi ts or whatever like literally and assistance um internet exploded and not really because of the AI assistant part not because of like I can't believe the computer can do this. Uh people have basically gotten used to that. What they really freaked out about was the fact that the voice of the woman was kind of like a little bit cultural and maybe a little bit fury and IT evoked, like A I girlfriend.

Just need to know, do I look presentable? professional? Well, rocky, you definitely have the, i've been coating all nights ook down, which could actually work in your favor. Maybe just run a hand through your hair or lead into the bad chinese.

I don't have a lot of time, so i'm just gonna throw this on what do you think.

Rocky.

that's quite a statement piece. The idea of am I onta fall in love with this thing? Um is someone gonna all love with this thing? Are the in cells going to fall in love with this thing? And what does the world look like in which people are running around with A I girlfriends um I don't there's google followed on with another AI assist in the very next day.

Their sort of release and demo was a lot of stranger. There was a guy and weird rainbow colors chanting for something. I didn't double clicking there.

Really no idea why he was doing IT was very cloud nish IT was very google. Um but this stuff is coming A I girlfriends, I guess I read around the corner. Um I don't know. In the paradise group we have a bunch of opinions. You are I know the people sort of disagree different points. Um is this something that's going to happen, I guess but maybe we start with just what do you just think about the demo generally and I stop generally and then our A I girlfriends coming and and and what does the world look like in which, you know a non trivial percentage of the american youth shocked up with a fan boat? I mean, I I think it's .

definitely to happen. It's already happening. Uh, there was an interesting article in the new york times by Kevin roose. I think that tell you says last name um where he dated a bunch of these different AI girlfriends and he fell really, really hard for one that was kind of like a therapist bot. What's interesting is that like the quote that he used, IT IT leverages this cognitive bias called the barna effect, which is basically there's the set of phrases that you can use that sound hyper specific to an individual person, but actually applied like basically everyone.

So if I say something like um you have you have a complicated relationship with some of your family members would be like all damn like you know me but really like everyone has a complicated relationship with someone in their family or like you you know that you're capable of Better things that what you're doing right now, like everyone is a striver in some capacity. So most people will be like, that feels right. And if you go to like a terror card reader or psychic, they will exploit this.

And A I is like, perfect for doing these types of things. And when he hits you with one of these chat lines that are already out there on the internet, IT feels very personal. And so you're just like, this is amazing and that's why it's easier to be like a girl friend or a therapist then to actually read your emails and tell you when you talk to someone, do that actually a task where there is a correct or wrong, right or wrong answer. But there really isn't when you're talking about like, you know, do I have a complicated relationship with someone in my family?

I think it's interesting that it's Kevin rose who saying this. I read a whole as peace. It's a chatbot. Kevin is the name you guys check IT out um .

IT was a IT was a preview of chat of GPT four wrapped inside bang .

OK so interesting about google no IT was microsoft but microsoft was IT was .

ChatGPT under the hood for they released earlier through microsoft being and because they released this so quickly, you can kind of like break the model jail break and and get IT to act like this kind of like X D.

T on T, I T even have to jail break IT. I think another thing that was happening back then and it's hard to get any strain answers because in interviews, that's just not what you really get with the OpenAI team. Um it's just like whatever to whole conversation from the day.

But on this, my sense of what was happening was IT was google itself or bringing itself IT? IT was like reading about what other people were saying about A I like, imagine you train and A I to go review the news or something, or you traded on information that's on the internet. And most of that, when IT comes to sentient AI beings, is like pretty terrifying, right?

It's like a lot of fiction that we've written, a lot of non fiction that we've written. There's not a lot there that super utopian and friendly. And then especially in the question of sydney, all of the press was negative.

And so I just I guess I I wonder if maybe that's what was happening there as well as that IT was just researching itself and people were saying that was evil so was like, I am a scary monster. I don't see myself falling in love with an artificially intelligent being. However, brand in you did say that where you not married, you might get.

I said, I felt the pool of the thing which is true so might take on the girlfriend thing is not like, of course it's um IT being like emotionally resonant, like convincingly. So that needs to happen. Four people have A I girlfriends, but I think it's more like the type of person who would who would have an A I girlfriend is the type of person who will order jordas h instead of going to the grocery store to get their groceries.

Like I think what open is done has like created a new path of least resistance to social interaction. Like if if you're trying to date previous to this model, um you go on tender, which was the path of this resistance IT was easier to go one tender than I was to go to bars, for example, and actually meet people. I think now if you want social interaction, you have this thing 嗯 GPT four oh um that you can just you can turn on， you can talk to, you can talk to her or him. Um I think that like the sex part is still not there and I don't know I think what's going to happen is that romantic love will be and can be um separated from from sex and there's also like know like sex is already solved in my opinion. Um you know I don't know if you guys know what gun caves are, but like the the the the whole sex, like the this .

I described to describe .

search, I go to read IT if anybody .

y's brave in to .

and then you .

learn what doing caves are going. Caves are basically um the men who are they like plaster their walls and fill their rooms with images of porn and like pornographic stuff. And they like they'll like gov like ten twenty times in a row all day.

And they feel like there's some sort of transcended effect to this. They've like basically given up on life from my read. Anyways, I didn't mean to go all the way of good caves right away. But my point is says like this is just an easier thing to do to talk to somebody. And I think that's why this of four o has more tension, al, to create a girlfriends than anything else that we've seen so far in the A I space.

I I think it's very interesting to say sort of we're already seeing pieces of this player. And so that makes sense in away though I would disagree with the the frame of its like tender or something um I think tender all the dating apps in general lead to some sort of real world physical touch at least promise that which is the draw of them and then getting signal from someone. It's always that's the carrot.

I think there those separately in sort of interestingly, are all down, right? The dating apps are in a sort of disaster moment right now. And that has to do with the fact consumers are not having sex, which brings me what I think this is really more like and what is probably actually happening here.

He reminds me more in video games. And as video games become increasingly excEllent and people spend more, more of their time playing them, i'm always shocked when I going. I look at the video games, says just how many people are totally addicted to video games because I just i'm not not because above, but because I know that I also addict pretty easily.

I mean, when I started playing like final fancy or something that was IT until I finish the name you i'll see you next week ah so I just I avoid IT generally, but a lot of people don't and this feels very much like that, right? It's like the best Tommy got you you ever have in your life. And um I think that for a lot of people, maybe that would be maybe that would be the draw, but then that's the problem that I think that we need to address is people being completely absorbed inside of the digital already. And it's like this is just another version of that to me.

I think maybe I hope on the game side, I think about I have a good point, mike. I think i'm just imagining right now like an APP that use that that portion uh GPT for a through through A P I and give fies a relationship. So like you can get this far with her. If you talk to her this many hours and and you say the right things, you ultimately get to marriage with her. I think that that that type of APP is nothing going to happen if it's not already in development.

I voi kind of a black pill, White pill here, like the black pill is kind of like you entertaining ourselves to death. This is something that people have written about, like the answer to the ferme paradox, why there no aliens? Maybe all advanced za eventually develop an A I that just entertains them endlessly.

And we all go into kind of the matrix and sit there and talk to A I girlfriends, but we all die off. And there's an interesting question behind that, which is like the AI dumas are worried about ai killing everyone. But like if you look at the births statistic, like it's possible like artificial intelligence is already killing some of us because it's limiting ability reproduced.

And if you want to kill humans, if you just drop the birth right low enough, eventually all the humans will be gone. Victory for the A I um but there is like a weight pill side of this, which is like if if if everyone is talking to an A I girlfriend, you could actually learn an incredible amount of what that person is looking for and then you could match people across the network to real people. And so, uh Whitney'll heard the founder bumble was in the news just last last week talking about how like in the future you'll have an AI that goes out and talk everywhere else.

I think that kind of unnecessary. I think the more interesting thing is you have an AI that you're talking to about what you're looking for in someone IT learns an immense amount of information about you and then matches you more effectively because when you show up to these apps rate now it's like what like height, gender, race, like a few. Interests a few answers to a couple jokes.

It's wildly different to match someone if you have you know chat logs of them talking about what they're looking for in someone for you know hours and hours and hours of talking to someone and you get that across the entire network. Now the question is, like our IT, will this be equally waited a bounce? Men, women? Will you are other economic incentives for an A I girlfriend and company to actually make real life connections because then they kind of lose the customer.

There's a lot of you know kind of hurry things that could happen down stream. But there is there is the potential for to take all the data that's collected through these A I girlfriends and use IT to actually match people in real life. Be amazing.

One question I want to ask saga actually I realized, ed, that throughout this whole conversation we keeps saying A I girlfriend and that is that the that's what we're talking about the um what is that at? Why are we thinking A I girlfriend rather than A I boyfriend? Why is IT so relentlessly that focus right now and then also whatever else you maybe thinking? But I specifically i'm wondering that now, and I think you might have an interesting insight.

I mean, I think IT comes back to what you are saying, like about how so much of our perception of what this A I is gonna be is informed by, like, science fiction films that we have. I mean, even the comparison between her and the the open eye launch is, I mean, it's because in her there's an A I girlfriend, right? And they tend to use these female voices, I think because women that people respond Better. Female .

driving is um like text family. What was her name? The girl, the woman who navigated for us anyway? Yes, specifically men and women .

perform a read. More people.

yeah. I mean, I think it's an interesting it's a kind of ironic point that we always tend to think about the AI girlfriend of the insel case because I do think there's a lot of research out there that suggests that women are more likely to engage in these like fido sexual relationships with fictional characters and have you completely non sexual um like what is IT called when you form like a pair social relationship with A A celebrity or something um women tend to do that I mean the kind of like onic fan girl who just devotes her life completely to her idol um which I could definitely see happening with this A I I will say I mean I don't immediately think about A I girlfriend when I see this launch.

I think about like A I tutor and i'm excited about the possibility of this for like you know that the example is bring up with brennans like this could be a language tutor for you and IT could teach you uh a language and talk to you or could teach you you know something in vancouver math or something like that um but I think with the her comparison, the thing people always forget is that in her his not everyone has an A I girlfriend like he is kind of an anomaly even with his friends. And I think that sort of speaks to this point that there's probably will be a portion of the population that is like disposed to having a completely AI relationship. But most people I don't think are um and for me the company the most apt comparison is actually like widely available internet porn where you have like broad uptake of some degree of porn, like lots of people watch IT casually maybe and of course this very well documented negative effects, but very few people are in Green caves. Goon caves are like a very specific niche, extreme, a demographic of people. And I think that A I girlfriends and boyfriends, because i'm sure theyll also crop up, will be a similar kind of like weird french phenomenon.

Well, a couple. First one on your tube thing. I think it's a great thought, and I think that you're right. And I think a lot of people think that you're right based on the fact that do a lingo stock tanked after the release of uh after the launch of the demo.

Um and then I guess when he comes to the who will or who won't use IT or if they will become in one thing I worry about with the porn stuff is that we don't really entirely know what the effects of that are. Um we know that people are having less sex, Young people are having less sex. We know that the birth rate is down.

Correlation is in causation. But it's while corners has always been around, no one has ever had so much access to pororo. And I I do wonder sometimes kind of what the effects of that are.

And this if IT is, that would be just a much more difficult version to escape. But I want to talk about her for a second because we keep everyone keeps bringing IT up. And uh, we've have written about her in the conic V I for years now.

I'm glad that people are finally following power wires. IT is definitely the apt comparison and is what we're going to be creating. I saw people talking going after some men who tweet her after the launch of the demo.

Um one guy in particular, jeff Miller, he is an A I sort of not a skeptic is a an x risk person. He's terrified of the killing us all um and he said, you know, sam, you fall on paraphrasing here. Her was a detox, an movie the assumption being that people isolate and the AI is like this fake girlfriend and how sad or something.

And it's not a destroy a movie and it's not even about, in my opinion, a guy with an a girlfriend. If he recalled the protagonist of that movie was a divorce sea, he just got out of a really terrible, uh, or I don't know, that was a terrible relationship, but a relationship that was important. Him ended in a terrible way.

And the A I girlfriend was his rebound. The movie concludes with him dating another woman. And the A I do how much of other crazy things and they believe the galaxy, I think, and I don't even know exactly what happens.

It's like all pretty interesting, not super scary. And what you really have is in there she's a girlfriend, but she's sort of a therapy helping him heal in this really awful moment. And so it's a utopia in movie.

I think it's maybe one of the only european interventions we have of artificial intelligence. And if it's something like that, i'd be super stopped. But um I mean I I think .

that applies to terminate also all the I .

terminate.

I watch, I watch her matter and am like, oh, you mean the movie where that what humans win at the end of every single movie? Like what could be more exciting than fighting the A S and winning like no is talking about that scenario. Go to war with the terminals and we win, will feel so excited united as a human species, if that happens to be amazing.

I guess that's I mean, that's to take that that take I do I want to I mean, last thoughts on A I girlfriends and the future of A I and I don't know is I mean .

I I do think like like using this is a language to or using this is an a girlfriend like that. The core GPT APP is too general purpose for any of that. Like people are going to create like spin offs right now, like even even to do a lingo thing seemed like maybe a little bit overstated because like if you if you actually try to switch today, like IT would be pretty, pretty hard to fully switch. But the technology is clearly the future. And so I think that's why people .

are excited about this. I think the question the question on my mind is like are we going to be wearing this technology within five years because that I think that there's like we're not we went all the way to A I girlfriends.

But like if i'm wearing my meta raby's, my meet A I rabs and so that the A I can see whatever I see and i'm listening to her all the time, right? And like let's say i'm like reading a news article and it's talking to me about what i'm reading um and a lot of people are doing at the same time like I don't actually don't know who you are anymore if that's what you're doing because that's essentially like a layer over your own perception, is like a filter and it's also controlled by a corporation, is likely in a sort of exchanged um some amount of uh I don't know autonomy for the government for regulatory mode. And so you actually do like i'm not usually a conspiring spirit or person, but like you start thinking about mind control in the situation and actually seems like a possibility .

mean that have in a couple months, like apples doing a deal ChatGPT right now supposedly, if that happens, it's gonna in your airports like as soon as they update IOS.

Do you also have to think about I think it's not conspiratorial to ask yourself a question of what this technology will do to us. I don't want to see physically, I guess you sick, uh, your brain is plastic, right? How does IT reshape us? What do we become after? And I want to so I always think back to, um what is IT a the navigation? What is IT called a map stuff?

Um GPS GPS turn by turn.

So think about, I was embarrass ona recently, and I used to live there, and I somehow navigated those streets with a pay by the minute phone that did not have a map. I haven't navigated around a city without a map for a decade, and I could not remember how I got around in barco. A um I think that we have lost something really important when he comes to just that.

One thing, the navigation thing, some important part of our our brains are atrophying. And what we're talking about now is not just navigation, which is an important part of being a human being, but uh, sense making and that's very new. It's it's a whole new kind of uh of internet experience.

When you look at something like the difference between search in the early two thousands and search in the twenty teens um or let's say social media in in the early two thousands and social media in the twenty teens, we used to log on in the early two thousands and sort of direct our own search for information and we would learn that way and develop interests and taste and we would go deep into various you know niche places and discover things. Um now we log onto the internet and our giving things. And I do think that changes the way our brain's work.

This is going to change our brain, uh, just going to change our our brains. This is going to change our our mind is gonna change the way that we think in the in the way that we interact with each other. Um I ve been a great addition brand in and a good place to leave IT for now because this stuff is impossible to predict but we will be here to talk about the A I girlfriends as they proferred and boyfriends and probably more boyfriends and he said earlier that women um in general are seem to be more open to some of this kind of stuff.

It's so true. It's also I used to work in a publishing romance novels are one of the biggest they were then for fifteen years ago. I don't know what's going on today, but like romance novels were one of the most important parts of the publishing industry and they were were almost entirely by women uh fictional romantic experienced fictional characters um and by roman.

I mean a lot of this was like smart like the the female porn was on the page that was the popular version of like porn for women basically. Um and I do think this is very adjacent to that, but I want to move on too. I don't know.

I'm trying to like I want to connect IT. I don't know how I can connected to a girlfriends, but we just going to talk about truck and biden uh, so biden is gonna a debate. These are the headlines.

People like, yeah, everyone is, you know how courageous by and chAllenge to trump to, uh, presidential debates. They're coming up soon. There are coming one um in june, I believe and trip immediate accepted, of course, because he loves debates and he loves attention and he's about to get a lot of IT and A I look a little closer.

It's not it's very weirdly framed as a courageous act was actually happening. As biden is saying, he's not going to do the debates the people have been doing for another, like all the modern histories since debates Normal ize in the seventies, basically so longer than any of our lives, a closer to the election in in, in the fall. And then there might be one in september, but they used to be much later. Uh, he's not doing that.

Obviously this is now my opinion because he's scene e and there is a chance of him saying something, a very high chance of him saying a lot of things that are very stupid on stage and he hoping people are gona forget IT about the time of the election um now I think the take here that is common is sort of like, uh, just do the debates like this is an important part of american whatever and norms and what are you a scared of trump er or something? My feeling about the presidential debate is that they're totally useless. I've never seen the presidential debate that wasn't a complete clown show.

IT is just an idiot journalists asking either stupid or coding questions to two people who are much more important than the journalist, who then responds, only have what a minute to respond so they say nothing of value. And so I just if this is the debate format on television, and it's like the medium is the problem here, it's TV ever since we've been televised in these debates, it's like you have to appeal to A T, V audience. There are commercial breaks and should I I don't think there's any value in that at all.

And so i'm not going to stay here and be upset that we're not going to have debates like we usually do because realistically, they don't move the dial at all. I cannot think of a single time something important happened in a major presidential debate. I personally am going to enjoy life to eating them um because they're fun, ridiculous uh but let's not delude ourselves, it's a circus. It's not like an educational experience. I know what you guys think about the debates.

I don't care about debates and all I here with you, I I think that I will vote for whoever does a longer, uninterrupted podcast appearance. I think both candidates should do three hours on rogan. ideally. I loved when burning went on there and your Young. I think it's a great format and I think it's really, really good for just us to be able to just sit back and see how this person has a conversation for a couple hours. Doesn't never be with rogan, but I want multiple hours of uninterpreted conversation of them just talking about the world, their job, their history, everything uh I was looking to see what the longest um uninterrupted interview that bindings done during his presidency because I figured like yes, sure he's not going to go on rogan but like he might have done something that was like an hour long. The longest I could find was just twenty minutes long and ironically, IT was on sixty minutes but but .

it's just like that was the .

longest I could fine crazy and i've heard these things really, really scripted when with those folks that we know, rogan is not scripted and and so whoever IT is, I just want to see they don't like the actual of debate in the back and forth doesn't matter as much as I want to see them and just have a really long unedited conversation um and I would love to see that happen for for both candidates I think would be great.

So famously we always go back to the dawn of the T. V debate which was uh, nixon and Kennedy. And the story is people listening to the debate thought that nick and one and people watching the debate thought that Kennedy one mixing was sort of sweat and .

older and Kennedy was like.

yes, he was always uh and uh and then you had um you know the handsome came a lot. Kennedy, just really looking great for TV um I like to contrast this with the famous another famous debate but people often talk about in this moment which is the link and Douglas debates which were not made for TV these were like our I think I think I might have been six hours of debating erupted by like a picnic lunch.

And so you have these people going out there giving long monologues on the way that they think about the world. And that is the important thing. As you mentioned, cogan is long, uninterrupted periods of time where someone is sharing their thoughts.

That is the only way. This is why rogan s is good, not because rogan is this genius interviewer, though I do you think he's fantastic um it's because of the amount of time you have so much time you can't hide behind sound bites. You can't hide behind uh, you know, a mission.

You have to just reveal who you are. There's no escaping in that kind of a format. You have a lot of time.

And that's what I would love if we're going to do a debate that would be valuable if people really cared about educating the public. You would see something along those lines where these candidates show up. They get thirty minutes of it's A A thirty minute opening statement and then you have a fifty minute rebuttal.

Maybe you go back and forth that way. On top picks are much sure exactly, but it's just it's long periods of time. Uh, it's not a combat zone because that's also what is it's fun again, I I will be live tweet the Donald trump hers joby in war but it's combat.

It's not it's not actually a demonstration of how great their policies are, how component of a leader they are. It's just one thing that they can do which is performed on a stage. And and it's that you want that long that long thing that you you want that uninterrupted um you here's my brain just judge IT kind of opportunity yeah I mean you're gonna get thrown .

balls and you're going to be out of your debt as the criticism the people always lay on these like three hour pot gasses that after a while it's like, why is this doctor talking to me about working out or whatever, something that they're not expert in. But that's exactly what I want to see because I I anticipate that the president is gone to get thrown a curve ball and all of a sudden it's going to be like you ve got to go figure out the problem in new zealand. And maybe this person isn't an expert in new zeal, but all of a sudden, like how do they respond to those curbs that actually valuable? IT maybe is a little less valuable when it's just some random pundit, you know, who is talking about random stuff but for the president seems perfectly .

valid soga debates how are you feeling about about the june debate?

I mean, I will watch any debate trumpton because I think he's hilarious um and he commands the stage um but I agree that the televised debate format has always been superficial. It's always been just away for people to kind of form um you know immediate judgments about someone based on their appearance. I mean that the mixing Kennedy debate kind of set the stage for that I think and I I like the idea of the podcast, I would imagine that they wouldn't, you know, these candidate probably wouldn't to go on anything but like a soft ball podcast where they could review the questions in advance and you know, they would probably choose the moderator.

But I still think that, that would be a more like I the thing i'm interested in is like why do we still have this outdated television paradise that we're using that was developed in the sixties? IT was made for a time when you had three TV channels and everyone was watching them. Um and you know it's twenty twenty four people are listening to podcasts.

Uh at least I don't think we're going to get a substantive win Douglas style debate out of either of these two people because I think they're both two mentally feedle to think on their feet in that way. Um we're to speak extemporaneous sly for extended periods of time in trump collection, but it's unclear whether or not IT would all be you in a logical sequence. Um but I think at least updating the format would be a welcome change um and you probably be pretty we want .

to update the format. We should just lock both of them in a room with cameras, no moderator, three hours, and we just get to watch them talk to each other. I think that would be very interesting to see.

Yeah, maybe watch we have to trick them into IT. So they are they get stuck in elevator together.

exactly. And then you .

just shut IT down and that's IT. Sorry, guys, you're stuck in there for six hours.

H, I mean, it's already a joke. Let's turn the presidency into a prank show. Basically, you know, Jamie Kennedy pops out at the end of this.

I mean, we are just elected. I had a dream that I had a dream. The Taylor swift became the president, and I remember feeling not used.

Even I was resigned to IT. SHE was the president. I didn't know he was running for president.

And I thought, well, I mean, that's just what IT is now like, that's just what IT is. And no one was upset. Everyone's like, what are you going to do.

Taylor swift, the president, this for a long time.

I remember not only that, but I thought to myself, like, come on, like White tail, you're onna. Pick a powerful whatever slow. I couldn't be Opera like if you just go with that option.

And that was my train thought in the dreaming. We are totally beaten down at this point as a, as a nation. Our expectations for the president are so low that we would accept almost anything.

And it's crazy to me because all you really have to do to get some great candidates in there is offer them a tune of money, just make IT like twenty million dollars a year, something crazy like that, and we're blowing in on all source of dumb shit. Why not the presidency? Do you know how many awesome people? Everyone, great.

Excuse me, everyone, great. Would, uh, would run for president? We were real. We would have a real contest at that point if there was what potentially eighty million dollars on the line? I mean, I think that's the problem.

Like what is the incentive to be president? There is no financial incentive unless you're totally a monster and uh very good at at fraud. Uh there's only fame or power and so that's what we we attract crazy fame like ego maniac trop and then horrifying creatures who want power. And that is just like incentive shape the world and the incentives for the presidency are very bad. And you anything for I remember .

um the debate between trump and Hillary and I also remember watching the debate between biden and trump and both felt like moments of national humiliation. I felt like embarrassed .

quite is very .

dignified for them that the country through that and I don't see how that this time is going to be any different. I'm thinking about what are the why you know what are the benefits of the candidates themselves of going through this debate. It's not clear to me why bite in thinks it's IT will help him to debate trump.

I can see why trump would probably get a bomb this because he'll just come out looking a little bit smarter and more put together then by in. But I I don't understand like the benefit calculus that these that their teams are running on this, like why why do they even do IT? Like what's the benefit to them? I don't. I don't totally get IT.

I am making preacher like this. I think there is really hard to know ever like it's really hard to know what's what's going to happen here. But I would not be surprised if there were no debates, brighton asked specifically, the team is demanding mike cuts and uh, no audience.

So trump loves and not actually said specifically effort. But what I was, I was really ridiculous. Like IT adds like an exciting environment or something like he just wants to perform before a crowd. Um double I think stand up. Yes yes.

And that I think he might tolerate not having, but the my cuts would be designed to silence him and I think that might be significant enough that he would not do the debate if that happens so I wonder if maybe the by administration will just make a bunch of demands that trump say yes to and that will be that uh, but I agree, there's no benefit at all for biden. There's only the potential for major gaps. The problem perhaps that he is looking at her, really his hand wash are looking at, is he is plumbing in the polls.

So he has to do something. His policies are not popular. Inflation is still a problem.

And no matter how many times the left economists tell us like, oh no, everything's actually good, the economy is great, you just don't care. Maybe there is some truth to that. He's not popular.

So he got to do something. And maybe he just think ks at this point may be whole team things at this point like might as well. I can't kit any worse, but I think if that's the feeling, why did they even why not step down and have another person run? I just don't understand what you're doing over there.

Did you go see that video today of I think you actually posted this, mike, the the banking executive talking about how bank failures like more of them are basically imminent .

and logy had quote witted IT and is talking about IT. I mean, I expect they were to have more back values. I don't see rates coming down, you know this year. So um if you you .

keep .

every rates up there right down along, the financial student is have negative equity on a mark to market basis and when there's a run of the bank, know the city is going to step in and take IT over. So I think we're going to see more big failures this .

year that we did last year. Bite this for can cooked image. If there's one bank failure like around dock over, you know like it's over.

he's not going to allow that to happen. He'll just there's no way he's going allow a bank failure before. I just don't think there's anyway.

But what do you think about the idea, the hypothetical of a double down presidency, which is where your your first term is four years, but if you get reelected, your second term is eight years? I think that would really change the conversation because the age thing would be a bigger deal. And it's like, you are you are you seen this person in action for four years? If you've go back and vote for them again, like you must really love this person, yes, then they have more time to work, more time to do something impact for I .

think it's if trump wins again, there is no way that he's not going to say something even just in a rolling way. He's going to say something at some point that's like a i'm allowed to run for again because I I having I haven't had a consecutive years even no, that's not what he's definitely going to say something like that. And we are going to have a week of news about dictator of dotal trip like on there's no way that we I want to move on.

Uh, saga, you wrote a fantastic piece about, I want to say team makes you gay. H to start makes you gay but I know it's a it's the I can't think of IT now the synthetic, the synthetic um basically yes, trend, thank you. Uh, something that I noticed as well and we talked about that I thought you were very interested. You have a bunch of background to bunch of a research on the fantastic peace um this weird trend of um body builders reporting a like new homes, actual feelings after taking uh stereos basically and um I sort of was legitimized for me when played not dates talked about IT I was like oh there must be and I listen the episodes interesting um but you wrote the whole peace and you do the research tell me the truth about stereo ids making us gay yeah I mean .

I will start by making a distinction because people have been very peden's about this in the reaction. I mean the piece is basically expLoring to connected phenomenon. So the first phenomenon is male body builders who take something called trimble loon which is a annibale x steroid. Um it's yeah so basically a synthetic uh under than IT um is like three times as potent to stop rim but IT bands your android receptor ors and they report that IT makes their lebed's skyrockets. Um so people you know train induced ed rage and risky al behavior is very well documented um but some people say IT also makes them want to sleep with usually tran's women IT was treatment.

What strategy says? Strategy say that .

trend makes them one asleep with like SHE males, trans women with everyone to call them um or with men. Um and then separately, but related dly female to male trans people for trans men um say that taking to stop drone makes them more attracted to males.

You have a lot of biological females who then become men who were previous .

yeah yes yeah.

So you have lesbians who take, or yeah lesbians or or you know whatever mysell ual women who take to stop and report that IT makes them exclusively tractive men or very tracked to men. And then you have heterosexual males who take trend and say that that makes them very attracted to men as well. And so the kind of funny um like whatever sort of like click Betty title is disasters makes you gay. But really the the overarching sort of uh point of commonality here is like IT seems like these annibal c steroids synetic isar one and tremble one are uh inducing attraction to men in both males and females, which is interesting and got a lot people but her. But I think .

it's so .

when I is, resist a joke there. But yeah, it's a very interesting phenomenon and there is not a ton of scientific research out there substantiating IT. But there happens some studies of uh like female to male trans people that find that to changes their sexuality or based oneself reported data um and then there's also quite good data that's found that homosexual men are more likely to take any box steroid than heterosexual man.

Well that is easily explained. That's just like they want to look like candles. Um the weirder one is the way that the sexuality might change.

A most of IT does seem to be anxious, but you see IT everywhere. Um and there are these very limited studies like you mention. I think one I mean tabling the the the strike guys who wanna have sex with trans woman thing after steroid. The idea of basically a lesbian an taking a shot and becoming not a lesbian an but now looking like a man is very interesting because I am not actually sure who I know everyone's can be mad about IT but I not IT doesn't but the anger doesn't clock to sort of standard political lines because this is sort of a gay cure maybe but also you're becoming a man um and then how weird to be a lesbian who ends up just staying gay but now is a man anyway a lot of weird things there but I the fact is so confusing politically it's one of the things I find the most fascinating about IT. Everyone is sensitive about this. I mean, can you what do you make of that part the fact that IT just seems to trans send typical political um I guess bounds political arguments there IT doesn't clock IT doesn't graph to anything in the discourse in a sort of um obvious way and um yeah I don't know what did you what do you make a part yeah I mean.

I think this pieces people off across the political spectrum for a variety of reasons. The first reason I think is because the contention that sexuality was fixed at birth, is fixed at birth um and is immutable able was such a central contention the gay rights movement right this was like that you're born this way thing I think for lesbians in particular, this is not a phenomenon that um is very welcomed because some of the people who are saying that they previously identified as less band and now attracted to men sort of retroactively are explaining that as maybe they were they had some kind of trauma that prevented them from wanting to be with a man or something like that which plays into ideas that may be some women identifies lesbian because of sexual trauma um and and yet he does still suggest that sexuality on the other side of the spectrum where people might want to say that sexuality, homosexuality particular is like has no biological basis or is entirely psycho social.

This is actually suggesting maybe there is some kind of chemical basis or that you could induce IT if you just give people enough of beto boost. Maybe they I mean, my my personal read on this is maybe if you just make people honey enough, they want to have sex in the most available way possible. And IT just happens to be a lot easier to sleep with men in many cases and women. I don't know that's just a sort of working theory um but it's definitely something that pisses people off across the spectrum. Yeah britain.

Um thoughts on the rotted out guys, the head into the gay bar. He sounds so like almost .

defeated .

by this topic.

No, no. Yeah I don't know what to think about that. I mean, i'm not seeing so so what i'm seeing in our mansions and our twitter accounts mention S I don't think any passed off lesbians and the mansions at all。 I think people who understand trend and are in sort of the body building world who have who think that we got some facts wrong or are displaying some level of coper something like that. So that's what that's what I am seeing. I think one interesting part about this is and I think sungei and and might be both kind of touch on IT, but the um being gay is not a choice thing was really important twenty years ago and maybe even fifteen years ago, four gay rights like there was there a, there was a, there is a utility to that mean so to speak and now I feel like nobody cares anymore whether being is a choice. I am not seeing people rage against the implication of this article, which is that you actually could maybe change your sexuality. Um we ran another piece that implied the same thing or or was actually explicit about the same thing which is rivers um humer conversion therapy um which the subjective of which was these guys who were watching sissy had no porn in an effort to turn themselves from gay to straight and the whole thesis of that piece was could you actually turn yourself straight if you're gay if you try hard enough and we didn't get angry reactions from gay people defending that position that um being gay is not a choice and I think that's just interesting that we're not that me more that position is no longer useful in the conversation.

I think just confusing now because the fundamental people are fundamentally what they are even you know gaga born this way, probably ironically. The end of that mean um everything after that is you decide what you are and can become anything um regardless of biology.

And this is really speaking to the conflict, which is a deep conflict within the sort of L G B T Q arena uh between homosexual men and women and I want to say trans but it's more complicated than that. It's it's all of the other weird shit in there besides the train stuff. So um you know you have your age, gender and your by gender and your demi gender and I mean all the weird stuff.

Um this is a kind of thinking that while I do think very much like I ve never met someone in person whose um like a blue gender or something these are people that you sure of only meet online but they they dominate the conversation and they really represent fundamentally different things. So um because theyve sort of been winning the conversation, I think that at this point there's not no one really knows how to how to have this have this conversation on on the tea stuff, which is interesting. Um I also think on the push back, probably the bigger thing that's happening there on the push back is like most of the guys were taking trend, don't have this experience of wanting to have sex with men and they feel on the front you know like um don't tell me i'm gay.

I think there's an interesting gender thing here where uh men in general and culture field and I think for a lot of good reason um attacked by the media. They think that anything that has to do with masculine ity is constantly assaulted to toxic masin as of as a slogan in in any sort of typically male characteristic, including working out, just like the concept of working out famously over the last few years of handful of articles saying, know, working out is coded right wing, it's coated fascist things like this. Uh, I think that they looked at this this title to stay drone makes you gay a question mark.

And they are thinking this is a group of people who are saying the hormone most with masculinity is is bad or something and that's what they're reacting to. They think that you're saying that this chemical is like toxic, and that's not what you were saying. But that is the that's the cultural terrain, I think. And that's what important appropriate .

response to in a way, if if you don't read the article because we actually published another article about test to a few months ago that if you read IT IT just called called the stock eliphas. And if if you read IT, it's by drawn castle, there's a whole section on how the media has covered in the past, like five to ten years. And they connected to the seas.

They connected to White supremacy, White supremacy. They connected to toxic masculinity. Everything about he is bad. And this headline definitely I could see how you how one would would interpret this headline is .

as in now in age um I guess now I mean, I wanted transition into another IT feels like a star and heavy space IT is the space of day trading and mean stocks. IT is the very first appearance of Riley. What's up? Riley Riley works for fired wires. Um you'll see in the takes if you subscribe to the pie wires daily, which you absolutely should please subscribed right now if you don't tell your friends to subscribe, if you do willies here today to break down the news surrounding the one and only means to Kitty break IT down.

sure thing can do. So i'll try to keep the break down part like as neutral as possible because I know we have a lot of die hearts, both in the pro Kitty wall street bets apes together strong kind of camp and also in sort of like the anti Kitty like, um you know uh if he's a fraud dsr have dirty rafle feather sort camp so I just for a fresh everyone's memory aboo the sky is what sort of the whole game stopped ed shorts weeks of twenty twenty one was about so what we're in Kitty also known on redit by the named deep finding value um is a massachusets by the name of key girl I know IT um but he became most well known uh through posting youtube videos and on the sub redit wall street beats um he is in real life a charted financial analyst um for several finance companies ended up working a mass mutual um we're in two and nineteen when he's posting on wall street beats again he began to sort of lay at the case for buying game stop chairs which back then were like a dollar a share um he said, look, these are super undervalued and critically, you have people like short selling the stock, which is essentially placing a bed that the stock will fail.

So i'm not going to get super deep into what a shorts because not a financial expert, but basically the people trying to short the stock and opening by shares at a higher Price because of all these individuals posting on wall street bets um which only drives the Price even higher. And that's where you sort to start to see. So the Price of GMV shares are like a dollar at the start of twenty twenty.

By the end of the year, they're up to like five dollars um but they really hit their peak in january twenty twenty one. Um and this is when the whole games stung soga like really started take off and yeah this is just when tons of people start buying up game stockwhips um as well as similar like mean doctus like AMC um but eventually a results in a peak of G M E hitting five around five hundred dollars a share. So just exponential growth all prompted by the guy on win Kitty.

And there's a lot of other factors I play here. So this is like peak pandemic stimulus checks had just gone out. So people had a lot of like money despair um but in total he ends up making like forty million dollars off of this uh the hedge fund was shorting uh the stock melbourne capital.

They end up needing like a rescue funding um just to stay of flow eventually Robin hood of restricts trading altogether um which is sort of what brings this whole craze, I guess like to an end um but when all is said and done, it's not all smooth sAiling for gill. Um he eventually has to testify before congress that this wasn't some like complex scheme that this was just a guy who would like to stock um so that's what he does before congress. His employer even gets fine four million dollars um mass mutual because they weren't uh supervising their employees enough. But aside from queen ratio testimonies and I guess like hollywood biopics, he essentially just lazed low for three years naturally as one does after .

making forty .

million dollars SHE have so he's he's off the grid for like three years um until the end of his highest, which recently was um this past sunday, let's see. So G M E Spiked one hundred and seventy percent. The company hit a ten billion dollar market cap, trading for the stock had to be halted four times, and the game stock became one of the six hundred largest public companies in the country.

And so what was that single post that resulted in this just seismic, uh, shift in the stock market that we typically only see red after Nancy policy invest in something IT was a single name of a gamer leaning forward in a chair. Since then there have been some subsequent post like movie clips, which I guess assist thing to sort of post um but the catalist that really Sparked all of that was a guy leaning forward in a chair um caused the seismic shift in the stockmarket. Clearly that just shows like the insane amount of power that this one individual has just over our stock market that I mean can cause a talk to have its sherise halted four times in a single day but kittie still hasn't said like what prompted this return.

Um if he's getting in on game stop again, if he's getting in on entirely different mean stock, several others of rich are on the rise right now. Um I personally think we should all get in on chairs of bed bathroom beyond that's not financial advice just have got feeling but yeah so he he's back and there been several takes in response to his return that just ranged the game IT on one hand, you of people saying this is proof the entire economy is rigged in fake on the other um you have people like former S C C Cherry j. Clayton who on cnbc uh was demanding the Kitty answer for this uh questioning whether we should tolerate this in our markets not insider trading.

That's clear plessy and he's trading on his own information. That's why it's not insider trading. But is is this something that we should be tolerated in our markets? And whether it's leg, I don't think so um and .

yeah don't know my take is just that IT shows how powerful Kitty is like this dude with a single mean of a gamer leaning forward in his chair can cause a stock to be halted four times. That's absolutely insane. Um and I think yeah it's just yeah insane. I think .

that it's close.

It's more closely tethered to the sort of stuff that you were saying you so you mentioned poli um and now you have j laden sort of should we allow this? Should we allow this person to what posted mean? And then a lot of people like him and they want to buy random stocks, he even talk about should we allow IT allow what I think that the whole there's an you can see the financial experts, not all of them, some of them have sense of humor wanting to frame this as here's this guy manipulating a lot of dumb people.

But what I see in the mean start community is a lot of joy and happiness and excitement. And the idea that this person, this one person, can up end the market in this way, it's more like he, he's s only powerful because people are giving in the power. And they're doing IT.

Not because they are stupid, because they want, they want to a feel empowered. I think that when you talk about the polis in the claytons of the world, you have a lot of people who have a sense in amErica that they're not in the driver seat and there are always other rym m people who control everything. They're making lots of money and they never get to do anything.

Um but here you are. The whole thing starts with the short squeeze straying a company that was trying to destroy another, uh, by shorting them to death. And this feels kind of like populist rage to me IT doesn't feel like stupidity IT feels like anger and and humor. And that's expressed on the internet the way that everything is expressed on the internet, which is in like clown language and cartoon physics. And so IT all looks really stupid because everything on the internet looks stupid.

But I think the feelings but beneath IT or more um sort of classically of this moment it's like the trumpet thing and the berny Sanders thing and the mean stocks thing IT all feels like the same thing to me IT feels like an american trend uh against the elites and I for one am glad to see Kitty back. I also not financial advice and I have no idea what he's up to, but I just think it's fun. I don't know IT just IT makes me feel something bread. Are you following the new .

stocks of at all? Yeah, I mean, I follow IT back in twenty and teen. I'm surprised that I was .

five years ago. Now that's .

crazy else like before code .

that remember IT was .

IT was twenty twenty .

yeah that was when everybody .

was like super yeah .

I think ripping yeah and and .

game stop was particularly down because it's .

in it's a .

physical .

retail store buying things online like but this is for the company is still bad like it's all that look is not good, but you know people are piling in. I I always thought that he was just going to start a fund like a warn buffer.

When he takes a position in bank of america, he writes an out bed and puts in in the wall street journal and kenric fin, who's kind of key guilt growing kitties like, you know, moral enemy at city del, uh uh, kind of had a similar start like he so OK, I think one hundred thousand dollars when he was in college, traded convertible debt through, like these really scrappy means, gotten edge on the market, grew up to twenty forty million, and then raised the big funded. Now we managed billion and billions dollars. I feel like there are so many people who would say, hey, I don't want to be finding out about this.

Mean, you know, two days later on twitter, when the stocks are moved, like, Kitty, take my money, you run IT. This is what, Kathy, what does etf? She's out. They're talking about all the stuff she's investing in like this is very common in financial markets. It's just odd that it's decentralized and he's not getting a fee for like the service that he's providing, which people think is good financial analysis.

Do we know that me? IT seems like key. I looked at his twitter account and his activity that day, Riley, and so he post the gamer meme, and then he posted videos that seemed to indicate that he was like coming back or that he was back.

I just like that as youtube account. He still doesn't posted anything for three years, which I guess he just probably stopped after all the hype die down. Is maybe this just like an announcement that he is going to start publishing videos s on his youtube channel? Like what do we know? What is intent is out as of this recording .

we we sort of done and that sort of the speculation so when he first made this initial post of the guy sitting up in the chair, I guess game stock had made like a brief little rebound so maybe that's what he is attributing that too like he's just paying attention to this brief little bug. Um but there's still a lot of speculation.

Is he getting back in the game stop? Is he getting into some other you know mean thing? Is this related to any of these financial things like altogether as he just posting again? Yeah still still don't really know, but just his post alone has ready caused like seismic shifts in the stock .

market is very so I think the like you mention the popular aspect of and I I think I think IT is populist now because we're in this populist moment, but also that this sort of means stock franzy is like a natural evolution of retail um because we because of the internet and I don't think I can happen any other ways and IT always be that way.

People will be piling in and feeling fom o and that's just like the nature of um in the stock market alway back to like to umana or whatever. So I don't think it's that surprising. I think another concurrent thing that happened in twenty twenty and twenty twenty one was web three and like mania around show queens essentially and that that all fell apart. And at the I don't know sometimes during twenty twenty one, but I think what you had is a lot of people cut their teeth in that world who were highly online and are now no longer trusting. Shake coins and just going back into retail um and so just like you have this like highly online community of people who can make a big noise when when there's like a new stock around that make sense.

yeah. But I think IT h first all not even we don't know what's going on right now. We don't know if this going to be a long term trend.

We're entering like another mean stocks season that's not really clear to meet all, let alone you know what kittie's thinking. It's not clear that we're going to do another meeting mean stock thing. We would be fun and funny and probably disastrous. But I mean, I I don't think so on the internet though that is definitely true.

This is like a lot of things only possible because you have now millions of people who are connected uh online who are sharing the exact same information feed and can move and act instantaneously together and in in the trading this so this manifest in lots of ways this manifests from uh, spreading viral information about a pandemic, for example, that leads to the shutdown of the world. Two, in the case of trading, now that you have Robin hood, the market and you are seeing these huge, I wrote about a lot of this stuff, not this, because this didn't happen yet, uh, the sort of trend of the internet towards mass instantaneous action in a piece called jump. And this is a version of that.

Yes, for sure. definitely. I think the populism is why this one is happening, but yet it's only capable now. And that is the interesting thing about the moment that we're with the internet, I believe is um as tried as IT is. I mean he was tried ten years ago to say the internet changing everything.

Now people don't really say that at all, but we're seeing new, new sort of examples of the internet having fundamentally transformed human civilization much more now now that it's more mature, now that everybody's online, now that everybody's connected uh, by their mobile phones, you are seeing really crazy shit. And I wonder, I guess the most interesting thing about this all to me is not even necessarily Kitty are the me stocks, but what other mass action is now capable that never was before that we haven't seen yet and and don't and sort of don't see coming? That's that's what I always wonder.

That's what I wondered. In the case of job, like what what is the is there a danger that we are not prepared for? I don't know。 So you know, have you follow the mean stocks? I have not OK time.

I was like very, very vegan, aware of even what happened this week, to be completely honest. So yeah well, sorry.

last thoughts. anyone? Yes, I mean.

i'm not sure. But like I I think the there's like odd filter on the internet because the way the algorithms worked like like posting a big win on on the internet will go much more viral than saying I lost on my money trading a mean stock. And so you get this reinforcing feedback loop of people only posting the positive things.

And I think if you look at the full structure for the last me cycle, like IT was not this massive well transfer from wall street to main street. IT was definitely a situation where yeah was bad for one hedge fund that god bailed out. But I like game stop. IT was great for them because they're able sell a lot of shares during the mania. And if the stock keeps going up, i'm sure theyll sell more shares, which will allow game of the company to raise more capital and then you'll just have more money on their baLanced to do whatever they want with um but I I wouldn't I wouldn't bet on this being like a permanent source of well transfer from hedge funds to intel trattes .

IT will be a permanent source of entertainment. IT will be john cogan and Riley from pirate wires. Then he guys both for joining, we will see more of you both in the future. Um it's been real. Audio s been real.