Balaji & Beff Jezos Respond To Forbes Doxxing The e/acc Leader | Pirate Wires Podcast #26 🏴‍☠️
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They not only dogs, the coalition between my precious identity and after js, but the the voice dogs need. I don't want to talk to them, but don't like, look, this is going to really come out. I'm like, all right, well, i'd Better try to control the narrative that I thought there is a sort of like ethical protection like, no, i've been trying to to figure out like why did this happen to me? Like where did I cross the fish hold, becoming enough of a problem that they needed to have leverage over me and expose me.

Our movement .

is about freeze ech, freedom of compute, freedom of the I, and not, like.

talk down on a crush IT. I have failed you. I don't know .

why you're talking to that. Do not talk to journalists. I said don't. To journalists to violence will regret.

Welcome back to the pod. We have the um we've gotten are we seeing death jesus or where we do, where we're going with this?

Uh, you can call me both names. I go buy both names now. B, O, sir gale verden, a amErica geo felt and da in france if you are so finally.

after it's been honestly too long the legendary ology doesn't even get does not even need a second name. It's like madona or who the other ones I even yeah you know it's not what it's not it's ology. Um we are here today. This is I M stoked about this episode.

This is going to be agree when and what you guys thank you are a different times home and it's been a while setting the stop um but ology and I ve been talking about embodiment for me separately from each other but also together media and the shape of media uh for years through like attack dark ages. Back when we had no counter voice whatsoever up until today where I think things are still not baLanced but very different than they were three years ago. Certainly different code before that.

Um gill E U were oldest break IT down. I mean so bef J S S kind of popular anonymous account on twitter. You uh run something called the E A C C which will get into in a bit or E X docks ed by forbes um analyze aker White of forbes in concert with alex conrad which is an important part of this story because alex, it's important to meet at least and I want to talk about IT with body guys in a minute because that is so influential in tech I mean runs the mightst list. Everybody knows him.

Everybody talks to him and that is a allum and and I I do want to get in into IT but long story short, these guys hit you up or Emily hit s you up and she's got you she's got your real identity so you've been writing anonymous ly about E A for what about a couple years at this point when this happens um I have a little bit of community I would say i'm a kind of character is what I think you guys do and then you can come in here give me the real version according to you. I think you guys are meaning about the future and you're definitely counterpoints the E A stuff. You're sort of like cleverly cutting against the dower narrative in a fun way.

I always seen IT is very like light hearted. I have noticed this week the E A crowd has been very personally aggrieved by you and I gave me a giant question. K then I was like, why is why is the media gone to to war against you? I have a few theories. I'd love to hear ology your theories especially um because i'm sure you have all of this point. Sure your link gail to market rion and gary ten specifically seems to me like the reason that you became something that needed to be destroyed and shamed um so that's my version of events you know yack born you represented is a positive futures st anti dummy pro progress pro A I specifically kind of movement um you are they think fascinated, obviously doesn't work out that way for them. You are much more popular now um hans, to talk about what first things first, like what is your version of those events?

Yeah I mean, for me there was there was a crazy friday and it's been a crazy couple days since then. I'm like half way across the world, right undisclosed location that is not china and you know on a business trip. So I am still you know doing what I do.

I'm entrepreneur yeah originally basically I get attacks from like investors so so first of all, you know I came know as I was docker and I came from google ax and I worked on projects with the leadership there very closely. You very secretive projects. I was used to sort of secrecy as my baseline um and to some extent like spending years uh, super secretive.

You can talk about what you do and so on IT it's kind of a burden and that's originally how I started bef jesus was just like as an outlet for me to community with people about stuff and just I um and now i've kept that account since then um but you know I had to start up as well that was not dox like this. They not only dox ah the correlation between my principal identity and bef jesus, but the correlated my principle identity, my current company and even they trace through you know name changes of the company even like went through my facebook, they went the voice docks me. They just correlate everything I was like a full like, uh, you know, in the full test constitution .

identity IT was like something out of a spy movie. They went in. Are you 1IT really through this verses that yeah like.

I mean, for me, you know like I think, like, you know, I believe what I I believe large majority what I says bath sometimes is kind of like ironic extreme post as one does on twitter but like most of IT you like i'm all and like I don't mind like, uh, you know backing, you know, using my main identity back what I say have what I have said with bath but to me was like I didn't give you the right to to disclose like that. I'm doing this like deep tax start up as well. You know I mean, some technology .

have the right this is a it's like this is the whole thing for me watching this is this is this is not the first time that the press is done this um this happens often and it's it's this question of rights comes up it's like we can do this they say is like, yes you can but the clash IT is like easy, ethical.

What kind of world on to live in um and obviously from where i'm sitting IT just seems the purpose of revealing your identity is to um scare other people who are sharing their opinions in this space anonyme sly from doing so IT is a strategy to chill speech. I don't have to worry about speaking for the most part within reason it's way easier for me. I don't run a tech company and self.

I work for Peter til at founder fund and on the pie wireside I run my own business. It's like there I am. The business is speaking like it's it's easier for me to do that.

For someone like you is harder. They know that. And the point is they want to take you off the map. Think I mean, you any you can take this anywhere you want. Obviously, you want to share in particular, but really like to know kind of like what you think what do you think the motivation behind this paci c targeting was?

So my views on this summer revolved fundamentally the journalists are are tribe and their right now IT is of the overall, you know, what you call the regime, the paper belt, the cathedral, the establishment, the deep state, what have you? That is a set of people. And IT is a grouping of people.

That is, you know, foobar. You guys remember foobar from the nineties for us, bias. okay.

So like the regime is nationalism for the regime. You know, it's like the first order. You could say IT democrats.

You could say IT deep sit. You could they do. There's like a lot of different names for this, which are all overlapping. But basically, if you take the whole social network of, you know, eight billion people in the world, in three hundred million americans and so and support, this is a sub graph in the social network is densely connected and IT certainly is professors, its regulators, its bureaucrats and so and sofa and everybody who is not them is an enemy.

And that means that they're at cymatics war with tech, with trump, with china, with russia, with india, with is like, and you can ask some of these, they are more worried than others, right? They don't like india very much, but they are like someone fighting IT. They don't like israel very much.

And you've got some alt right. But basically, once you look at IT as a giant social network in different colors of sub graphs, the journalist you know, uh, like blue sub graph is at war with within america, the red sub graph in the grey or tex up graph IT. And so that's like the first shorter, like visual of the whole battle space.

It's not, this is not like a discussion. This is not like a Normal story. This is information warfare of one diverse another. This is meant to harm you and even if this first one is just like a tracer er bullet or like a flair to sort a light of the position right, then subsequent kinds of things may or may not be so positive would have you right. And um so that's like first is basically it's not a it's not a positive thing to go in dog.

Somebody against you do not do that to your friend, right? You do not do that to somebody who you mean well to. You don't stock them for months and um you know basically in your in your and you know correct me for wrong game but um they basically gave you you know they told you that all the jordon you they're like, well, you Better speak with us or else right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like i've got a text from investors and I before from that he was Alice contra IT told investors like, oh, hey, I correlated beograd I think he's a portfolio company. They had the old name of my startups so I changed the name of my startup for further upset and for branding eventually uh but the the hand put IT all together.

And then the sensor refused across reporters like. And then they had much more, they had too much put together and they wanted to. They are going to put IT out, right.

And then so the morning of as I could look, this is going to come out, you have a chance to give a comment like it's it's happening ah, whether you like IT or not and for me I had like two things. One of them was like, okay, well, how do I I just went into damage control, right? Like, I mean, i've i'm building stuff that I I really believe and i've been wanting to build this for like eight years.

I've been like super healthy about IT for all sorts of reasons for security reasons, for you know I P reasons and so on. And everything was at risk, right? Not only the movement, the arc movement and hopefully the movement is not at risk, but it's supposed to be enter fragile or trying to make IT. So but and my company so I went in damage control mode um and I don't want to talk to them but then I like, look, this is going to really come out. I'm like, alright, well, I Better try to control the narrative at least for the first for the first thing because i'm sure they are got a pilot now the .

media is definitely a pile on. Exhibit, let IT.

let IT be interested .

to the .

record and exhibit a.

Okay, this is, uh, from data journalism dot com. Okay, by one of the Walkers walks to ever woke is .

one of the three head, one of the head on the three head of dragon I would say.

yeah yes I mean some mult the thing is every one of these critters like basically is um essentially starza officer the that's what these uh these folks arts they actually have a whole article at data journalism dot com and what this is actually titled if you i'm sure if you pay systems to ChatGPT or would ever ask you to paraphrase that is how to dogs. He is investigating social ahead. I'm just shocked.

I shouted, be shocked. But I i've never seen IT this explicit.

It's this explicit, right? All of their stuff that's all of their you know good .

bRandy works for I think c right this works. These are major significant journalists .

that's right. And they teach how to dogs, how to these other articles on how to essentially assassinate except they don't assassin the character assassinate right? And um it's all so you know once a while they'll actually admitted when they're talking to each other and they put on a different face, right so here it's like um you know be prepared to read thousands of tweet, click until the end of the google results and die down a social mei abb hole if you want to collect the tiny biograph clues that will help you answer the question and who is this okay?

So you know, I mean whether you can read this if you want. The useful thing about reading articles like that is IT tells us as technologies how to build privacy country measures against these are people who who are literally like a, like a four profit intelligence agency. And I don't even say that likely.

How did they get your identity? G, V, right? They they went in use like some C, I, A voice recognition thing straight up.

I mean that I guess that that makes IT of that makes me a bit more bad as that they had to do that. I I don't think IT was necessarily that hard, but I thought there was a sort of like ethical protection like they will like up. I'm not doing anything illegal and literally just this is going to free speech hey guys.

thanks for listen to the poor wires pod. Make sure you like subscribed comment below and shadows with your friends. I have failed honestly. That was one of the big things I thought while I was washing this go down I thought like I we not and bollock youtube, we both how do you I don't know why you're talking to them. Like that's what I think i'm like.

How do you we've been talking about this four years like the are not all of them and maybe ball, I may be disagree little with something. I think there are some good things out there. Um it's very clear, in my opinion, who are not and it's very clear usually by the approach like that was on a friendly approach that's a hostile adapt what you're a war and what what you do.

And I this is for people listening now who maybe anonymous online and they don't know what to do if this comes and happens to them, you ask for help from people like us who are who are able to be back with media who can defend you like that. That is the very who really separate food defense publicly is like like advice because by participating you first of all IT, they're using that against you. They're saying, no, he participated IT wasn't against his willa, whatever.

And it's very clear from the emails youve share with me h in the private messages that they sent you know to other people on things like that's not obviously not the case. IT was curious reading the piece that wasn't the case. But I I can confirm here officially that that is not the case.

You were uh, not forced to participate, but you are going to be docked ed, whether or not you liked IT um but have you not participated? They ouldn't have that weapons to use against you and uh they wouldn't have had much to talk about because you, they also had not, yes, they were. They had.

They used their C I R. Voice recognition. And they really, really thought that was you. You know, mathematically, whatever seemed like also certain, but you had not actually confirmed IT. So they would have had a story where IT was like me are very, very certain, but we don't know for sure. And also he is sort of associated with this guy who we're telling the world is a nazi. And that would have been so good to ris that, I mean, we would have just gone to whole internet, would have exploitative and furious and they would have bit be eaten back like you kind of gave him a little bit, a little bit too much in the future. I mean, I I wonder ology devices, but I like you give them nothing and you then can you you dog yourself at that point possibly um to take a way the story like I don't know apology what what would the advice when you think in that situation?

Well, so one thing is I usually don't even repeat their charges because they throw around every base you know everything like i'll call anybody or not right? So I don't even give any created to their charges right um setting that aside yeah I mean so I mean here's thing like um how do I think about IT uh you're playing you guys really uh, video games not .

enough to urge this reference, but let's just on that. So there's .

like there's various video games where they're like first person shooters or something like that and you guys just keep beaming into the arena, right? They have no context on what just happened and where the you know shells are flying overhead and so on. And that's how I think about the new guys who know their heads down may be maybe they were just like in a different part of the battle field.

They don't have contacts and they are still beaming into arena. And it's a good analogy, I think, right where it's like, you know they are on our team, they're just beamed in, but they you they may not know all the battle tactics are whatever IT. So they actually incoming upon us as I hate at least you know, so on.

I'm not sure what the convention is, but I guess i've become a little bit of an elder. God helped me. God, her soul.

you're in in school.

IT happens really fast. The grey comes really, really, really fast. I'll tell you that, okay, but IT is in common upon us to literally compact the stuff down into months that people repeat.

And you assume it's almost like college where there is like a new class and it's obsolete in two years or three years and you have to like say, IT again and update IT, right? So that's that's one part of IT. Let me pause or gay your thoughts well.

I mean, I agree, I really like, get at the top of this little piece here. I felt bad. You like like I had not done a good to know is loud as I have been on this issue, i've written about IT as much as I tweet about.

And I feel like somehow that message it's like, do people think i'm kidding around? Do they think that I mean, this is an information war and I I do believe there are good actors out there. There are so many in various actors.

This, for me, the alex conrade piece is really crazy, because so many people treat him like A A reasonable reporter in tech. And this action for me is beyond the pale, not only way able after you, but the way he tried to go after gary and mark through you. Um is, I think, really nefarious and I am like frustrated that people aren't as upset about that peace as I am.

But yeah I know agree. I think we'd have a little bit of a Better job reaching out in these moments. And I don't know.

It's like, do I I just hope that people know that they can hit up people like us for advice in these situations. Uh, there are a lot of great people online. Luu is another great person to luu.

Uh, measurable is a great person to talk to you on this kind of stuff um I was saying I read a piece about this and in IT, towards the end, I get to the point where it's like you actually in this is what I really love to talk about things that change yeah there are a lot of people who are great online talking with big audiences. And it's not just like their anonymous people. There are anonymous cannot ever pronounce IT semi anonymity um there are ceos, big, huge, popular public ceos who are posting and they are all just like a dm away.

And you can see on twitter, you can see who's connected to who like. You don't know them directly. You want some advice, you talk to anyone.

It's prety cool. Um the vibe has shifted somewhat. And I was just watching um the at the regal defense forum. This is like the super bowl for both forms you have first while you have last week you at elon mosque telling the advertisers to go fuck themselves um on the on the state of the near times then this weekend at the the regan form, you have palmer lucky sort of telling kids not to follow their stupid dreams um if there no contra a reason and you know self to feeding or not for society to get very sort of anti, I don't know, mainstream message IT was strange to see him up there being so honest and on apologetic and palma selling specifically who just lays down his opinion every day and does not give a fuck and has really gone directing that way with his own message about his own company which is healing IT by the way um underworld then you have Alice card who just espouses like an incredibly anti work message openly on stage and it's like I am not hiring people who are idiots on the following topics, all of which would have been considered beyond the pale just three years ago, would have been articles. And you are times about, you know, the terrifying minutes of alex card but .

I am running one of the cause companies in the world and i'm telling Young people you are breathing the aper of a dangerous new fake and uh self destructive religion when you are sitting at your Ellie e school pretending because you watch tiktok twice and got an a plus on some crazy paper because your professor couldn't get a job anywhere else that you actually understand the .

world and you're not welcome .

at my company yeah I think things are different now um I don't know what do you get in my right in my wrong I just nave optimistic .

to all for well yeah I mean so you know saw on a uni again we're like literally grizel combat veterans. Ten years in the mean wars, right? Yeah time is really.

I think, where most of the action took place.

That's right. That's right. So basically, um you know tech versus media, you know I kind of a right i'm just gonna write a off the history here and then i'll be turned this into a blog post and so and so forth with the rules and the history and then the the history, the deep history, right but very roughly tech kind of arguably you can argue when tech exists a culture, but maybe you did a to ninety five with the graphical web browser.

okay. And then from ninety five till um you know two thousand eight or so because of the dot com crash me I didn't even really take tex seriously there, just like gadget guys or but have you just doing their stuff on the west coast? Basically an axillary of the democrat party like you had, you know unions and you had this group in that group and then there were Steve jobs and the tech guys making gadgets and over there in the corner over immediate concern themselves with their expense accounts and iraq and all the other stuff going up in to two thousand nine.

There's even this article at that time, I think, by joel stein, that's numerate, like the power centers of the U. S. A.

And its real time capsule from two thousand and eight because you know it's not on there. What's on there is a pentagon and wall street. And so you know it's not on .

there in in ninety eight.

two thousand eight.

two thousand and eight with all social media.

Silicon valley is not on. There is a power center. Two thousand .

eight at all at all yeah that is that the phrase big tech had not even been innovated at that point.

exactly. This whole system that we're in is so much more recent than people think because yes, what happened was after away after the financial crisis, um tech revenues went vertical. Okay um out there's a great uh graphic that shows what happened right then.

Okay the hate of coziness what is craft? This is showing print media revenue top set at six seven billion and year two thousand and it's like down after the docking crash but flattish and then a complete collapse down to the sixteen billion in four years. This is advertising revenue.

And newspapers.

advertisements in newspapers of line, right? And then including digital, digital doesn't say them doesn't come on fast enough. And google eat their lunch and in facebook eat their lunch.

That's a Green line over here. Google is a red line, right? So basically it's one thing to you know see your neighbor or become like a billionaire. It's quite thing for them to come a billionaire while you become uh, a thousand year over, right? okay.

And so these guys, essentially, over the first four years of the above ministration, saw these tech guys who had been, you know, a box or whatever, didn't think of as anything, suddenly rock IT up ridiculous ly fast. And because I was the the iphone. And that was the relocation of budget after the financial crisis to online, as which finally mature and converting. That was the fact that, like SaaS starting to work, why comminatory actually remember why I share two thousand and five, that only that whole modern seed era of things only really started working in the late to thousands a bunch of grey companies found around the time stripe, airbnb, uber, all of that basically by twenty thirteen after obama got reunited even in twenty twelve, by the way ah you guys remember in twin twelve the nerds go marching in how a dream team of engineers from facebook, twitter and google built the software that joe brock, obama's reelection okay, when the nerds go marching.

you see, I rever that narrative of of the obama being the first part of internet president and he have his his team around him from tech, basically, right? Not fully believing .

IT but well in the reason for the ideas because um you know facebook and then twitter started in very blue zones in the harvard area in the tenant ces ago. And so IT was assumed that technology was blue and blue was tech and that IT was just good, and that if he had any effect on politics would be to overthrow oppressive regimes. And over through, you know, caub spring, right? That was just assumed .

until I was reading, that was they thought was great. We don't hear much about the sort of consequences of that. Yeah.

a lot of disaster. Unfortunate, right? So we come back at that point. But basically what happened then, from twenty twelve to twenty sixteen, and a bunch of things happen first, is all these conservatives started to getting android phones.

okay? And there is a really interesting sort of mean that makes this concrete, if you're seen, and this is kind of late twenty ten and starting to get a little absolute or whatever, right? But there's a there's a collage of a bunch of democrats visages and a bunch of republican visages on twitter.

So democratic sages are uh guys with glasses indoors and like you know kind of unshaven or text right there like unshaven programmer, graph designer, yes, queen and types or whatever you know the guy's pointing at the the thing, right? okay. And um but the republicans are more interesting or this is like it's an interesting different kind of visage.

There are people with sunglasses in trucks outdoors taking self fees on their phone. So the fundamental difference is the democrat indoors and republicans are outdoors because almost all the problems are in sunglasses and they're clearly on the go with them like cheapo android phone. So part of what happened for twenty twelve to twin six scenes, the polls got online, and that started shifting twitter in.

The interact thing that happened is after obama got reelected to a twelve, the media, which had played nice with tech guys as they needed them to get a bombs to get elected, now had four years to settle scores, and all the knives came out, and all the valleywag type stuff happened around that time. Would you just look at all those rich people that's value eti al vision in nutrition, but could be so much more bia monju, who has become a full communist now and radicalized, right? But I was like ten years ago when he was essentially central left, he was complaining about attacking them as rich people. And certain of its just I remember .

people being mad about that. But I in my mind, i've remember dave more and complaining about this, which made sense because he was being attacked. I don't even the press rising to the defensive of those guys. That's interesting.

That's right. So basically a few years later, he's all abolish billionaires. Is literally he's writing that okay? The radicalization happened to the journals, okay. And essentially though IT IT um IT IT was a boxers clinch where that tech and media alliance didn't make sense anymore because the media guys were like way to second. These tech guys aren't just like some vote bank, gadget bank, whatever is making the the bedroom toasty on my desk that is an imac. They're coming for everything.

yeah. And in two things really got me out. He was, cocker is destroyed.

Yeah, that was that that comes a little bit latter. Be, yes. That's right. That's right. course.

This is important episode and in trouble wins the election. And at that point it's that's right.

But crucially, the negative coverage starts in twenty thirteen. In twenty twelve, you can even then find them writing articles like there's no is a programmer and so on, right? So this goes back to that visual I had of the blue tribe, right? Red tribe, great tribe.

If you're part of the tribe, you get friendly coverage. If you are not part of tribe, it's information warfare. yeah.

right. And now that can mean, by the way, you can be part of tribe. And then kicked out the tribe you can choose to leave like clan Green world has. You know he he was like he had all the prizes as so I give him a lot. I don't agree with glad on every issue, but I respect him because he had all the Prices within blue and decide to kind of go and do his own thing and see, and for a principle that he stood for. right?

Conference, sly IT is also possible for something to be kind of a rengade, but then to become incorporated into blue and to be part of this border, right? Like google early, google was much more bucket ery and swashbuckling and so on, didn't what's become which is not as blues IT was like a few years ago, maybe, but it's pretty blue, right? 行。 So once you kind of have that visual, it's really the, you know that's a friend, enemy, the tribal destination and it's not exactly left, right or have you IT is group non group was there? I ve got a lot more.

Well, I want IT. I mean, I have a slight push back, which is that go? I agree with I in the whole history I think is correct. And inside full, especially the peace on the revenue is really important.

It's we I think I maybe get somewhat distracted sometimes by the ideological combat component of all of this is just very clearly feels me like a classic information war and classic s it's not classic. It's a new kind of it's a very scaled up information. Live IT happens every day that is in our pocket.

IT never ends. But at the end of the day, like we are, the M S is a point that is now I hope people just forget. It's like we are we are competitive ves, we are competitive.

There's a business piece that is competitive, like just hot light industries are competing and then online that I think the new thing that we've been over the past few years and we let just focus on tech for a moment is we're not just it's not just some money issue like it's it's an actual the all import is a massive success and that is, you know, a side project for David sax. And that would be a dream come true for every single person in media. So it's not like the platforms are taking the money.

It's like the people on the platforms are also taking the attention from them. They're not even they don't even get to be the attention people anymore or or are not exclusively. There's come there, there's competition there. So separate from the ideological peace, there's the reality of just competition. And when you're in IT with someone for something that .

you can see life, it's funny you say this because um you know now again, this feels like and actually G V, I want you to jump in because we were just chatting. So um do you want to say something .

or I know there's kind of the broader is the broader information war between a tech and and you know the paper built a line media but the the media, the the pit bull for for some the the paper belt against you know whoever in tech is an enemy of. Whoever is like helping place various stories, you know, to me it's been like i've been try, like figure out, like try to back propagate.

Why did this happen to me? Like where did I cross the thresh hold of becoming enough a problem that they needed to have leverage over me and expose me and I mean, obviously, you know I markin gary have been supportive of the movement um you know for all sorts of reasons, one of which is like obviously we think that um you know the current sort of regulatory capture attempt by A I safety uh the A I safety complex and some of the bigger combs, uh, you know it's camfed just like antiguan try to save us, you trying to save us from open source models, right? They're do will use and so on.

And you know we were calling that out and getting getting people fired up, calling this out and and became a problem. And of course, um you know um gary witted this that ftc chair lina kon was invited to Y C. Know I was there and we had a little chat, know I was are concerned of our the concerns of our community like, hey, actually this this is kind of uh some of the big inconvenience kind of covering up uh h the fact that they are try to capture the market with sort of like, oh, this is you're you're on safety and that's when I became like efficient political a problem right you know there's all sorts of interests in the background, uh you know trying to pull strings here.

Um you know I have some hypotheses. Maybe I won't go until like exactly who I think is pulling the strings. I have my and my thoughts on that but what what's been public is that you know, secretary remondi believe called out ex specifically as like a dangerous uh, movement and something we should suppress .

with AI they want to is .

about free speech, freedom of compute, freedom of the I and not like top down oppression eated with A I and they're literally proposing cheddi down with the eye, which proves our point.

which is kind of like the way by way you know, that's like, it's like, will nobody rid me of this metal? Some priest kind of thing, right? Well, no one read me of this metal.

Some iac, right? Like IQ is a problem. And that's like a decentralize signal to the journals to go in, you know, right? It's sash .

journalism. yes. Come this pretty good get. Yeah, you're holding up the target. This is where i'm trying .

to think of what the illusion to scc terrorism. Okay, I thought that was funny to cash .

journalism scartaris I want talk about IT was what i've talk about iat, you are just getting IT to what I mean.

what this is a little .

bit of topic and can visit any time a time there we war, peace. but. This you know so it's dangerous of what not what is iac? How would you even describe IT?

What is the act? I think for me, it's kind of like A A cultural framework really or or meta cultural framework. We're trying to understand where's this whole thing going where civilization going you know from first principles the in the day the only laws are the laws of physics um and know the former theoretical physicist and you know I do the sics base A I now I always think about physics and nowadays I think about a self organizing systems and you know to me IT was IT was just the exercise and writing and trying to understand where it's all going and rather than have like completely like uh on anchor to realities sort of theories like like the dumas do of like AI taking over as soon as IT reaches human level, I takes over and homes and takes over the planet like i've been trying to actually find like where's this thing going and say, okay well um you know civilization at the other day is a system that's like alive all systems that are alive or that are basically life from a physical standpoint, seek to grow.

They acquire energy to maintain their their sort of state and and they seek to grow and crease their ability to quire free energy so, okay, well, citizen wants to go up the what is called the Carter shift scale so this is the scale of energy production or consumption um and so that's where we go, you know and that's where the system wants to go. And you know, IT keeps more thing itself and you searches over the space of technologies, of cultures, of memes, of genetics, of everything uh in order to to to ascend uh uh this skill and and you know basically it's like we're just pointing that out to us. Like like it's first a framework of like what is and and you know that's what's going on and and then it's what how should live your life giving this fact is like, well, actually if you help the growth of civilization, uh you know you will uh likely prosper and it's kind of a self a filling propac's.

If you're optimistic about the future, you work on hard things, right? Because you believe in a Better future, you want to contribute to IT to that. You own a piece of IT and and and and then you you go and build and do hard things and then the good future happens where as if like you believe in doom and and nothing, this is going to happen.

You know, a longer bill, you know longer want to have kids, you don't bet on the future and then the future is actually worse, right? And to also is the sort of reaction to the pervasive dumervil and the the pervasive m tech pessimism, uh, that was just dominating the new cycles and were like, can we have a viral optimism movement that you know hyperspace ously induces, uh, growth of civilization, right? Don't we all want that? Don't we all want to be?

It's more that's the thing .

that's actually I mean for us us three, yes, but that's actually like a core.

It's different act. Obviously A C, C was talking about acceleration is the word you're using. It's E A. You're making a play on effective ultra ism.

The effect altruists are very concerned with accidentally building a god that kills us really is what whether heads up and um they not a day now you the safety us in the media who have they want to slow down tech for all sorts of reasons but their position, all of them in this sort of uneasy alliance between very smart people in A I who happened to be E A pilled and a little bit of deer um and the press and you know the government that wants to slow to shit down um IT is it's slowing things down endlessly in the press especially you hear mark eckbert said move move fast and and break things and then things bright, we have to move more slowly. And you're not saying that, you're saying me to accelerate. So if the positive visit is there is awesome and I thank you for your service.

IT is very important. The means are excEllent. And I think I agree they're powerful. I think they're motivating. I think they are helpful, but they identified correctly your critique of them and uh and so that is you know you you're locked in this sort of at that point. It's if people hate you and I mean, i've see why why I must they hate you till this week, they're definitely mad.

Can I make a cup poser? yeah. So um there are deceleration is and there's also what the current use of shim is, which are stagnation ists, right? What they want to do is there in their own way, conservative, where they want to freeze the world in Amber. And so you will find, for example um that you for example, right mondo is talking about the tariffs so on and expert controls and they want to kind of freeze china as a power and actually I can understand that, okay.

But and so they are like, oh, you know the us needs to be a leader and I we're gonna an exports in there and then literally, you know that's what they're saying on monday's and thursdays and then on tuesdays and fridays, they are doing I bans in the us and saying you need to slow IT down and not accelerate and some sober trade. So they want to kind of think they think they can be a policy levers, which, you know they're not silicon valley, they're not shann, you know they're neither these things, but washington, D. C.

Thinks they can freeze the current disposition in amer. But they've got a healthy lead. And nobody abroad and nobody at home goes too fast. And nobody they they just want to stop the disruption because that's a thing. Acceleration is good for lot to people, but it's not good for them.

not over power. Any technological innovation that I think pretty much simple.

So that's the thing. So i've got i've got a perspective on this being out here in asia, right? And india loves tech. India loves tech. And the reason indian loves tech is you've got a guy who was on a, you know, like very poor ten years ago who's now got android phone. We've got a lifeline to the world, and they are able to study and they can learn and all this stuff.

So IT is correlated with the massive improvement in their living standards, right? But for the journos, and more generally do ous establishment, you saw that crafts, it's correlated with a massive decrease in their living starts. So they have a learn correlation where the faster the tech growth, the less money they have, the less power they have, which is kind of true for you.

You will be extremely painful for you, right? Acceleration is extremely painful for them, right? And that's why they're fighting the internet and they're fighting every four sets against them and actually a .

conservative way. And in this cause you're talking about general oba, many things. The the most attention at this point is are the generative models. When you're talking about like language specifically, this is something that IT looks like a journalist.

Yes, PC level. It's literally the thing. You know, this guy, I I got to get this guy to put this project back up, which, you know, I used to say, not even jokingly, that these, uh, journalists there are just like a sports articles, a wrapper around a box score.

You know, box x scores is like the, you know, how many rebounds, how many steals, whatever, in the best ball game or a financial article is a rapper around ticker. Like, you know, stocks were up on a hobby trading blob of blood, just like a verbal narrative. I used to say that these articles are just rappers around tweet.

You give you three tweet and you can write the article. And I used to say that as a joke and go fine, not even as joke is not true, and also a joke, right? A firm like years before a ChatGPT.

And then when IT came out, IT became literally true, where you could pay in a few article, like a single tweet into this thing that like a new year times article generator. And I probably got even Better a year later, and generate entire ful N Y T. Article that's like dark times ahead and technology as acceleration continues.

You know like you can literally do that, right? And there's no intelligence. It's totally paint by numbers. You just have the statistic kind of thing off the prom. Go, go, go.

Yeah yeah. I think like the the thing that scary right is kind of like the old world media deserve the incomes, deserve those that have interest in top down sort of control. They like to like they gain proxy power by being instrumental to authoritarians, right? Those that argue for more control.

And iac is about like saying that acceleration technical capital, celerity is a positive force to create amazing technologies that gives us wealth. And you know the counter argument to IT is that, well, if we if we don't control who who ends up in power, that's that's bad. You know really what their thinking is like, we might lose power and so that is bad, but the reality is like the system would adapt and powers would shift to, you know, those that are disrupting the convention, right? That's good.

That's how the system know optimizes itself and finds, you know, whichever technologies are our most beneficial to the world and and helps them scale up. And of course, those that to produce those technologies get to have sort of a more power to allow gate capital and controller IT goes right, which is sort of natural meritocrat. And they are trying to break that.

They're trying to maintain the sort of status quote they are. The real conservatives they call themselves may be progressives in some cases, but they're really just trying to conserve the powers that be. And then the media, they're just mouthpieces for the inconvenience. Again, like you know, there's the only people that still talk to them and they they use IT like you. They use them as the media is kind of like an information warfare ARM of like, you know, the incumbent on the he rebuilt right and in the I worry a little bit and I want .

to get both of you to take on this unless but you want to you think I going .

to jump in a little bit which is um you know this more I can see i'm kind of the history of this and so on. But there's a huge difference as to where we are in two thousand, thousand and three first, where we are in two thousand and and two and two and twenty one. And I think salona, you did your part. I think I did my own little part. We did our part.

which and shakes, no, and shakes.

there was no handshakes, please.

exactly that what yeah.

essentially what happened was starting in two thousand and thirteen, only just break up the history that began bringing the present day for trade thirteen to roughly, you know, twenty twenty. Uh, the journals essentially began a rain of terror against tech. Where there was all manner of cancellation.

We didn't have the word for IT then against people large and small. That's why the homeless problem, which is not really homeless problem, but a dragon and meant to loans problem, is and john or freed men, one of your you have many talents writers, particularly chAllenging writers, and johna salute. Oh right.

Is IT SHE 好 OK。 Okay, sorry, I did. I don't know.

Be careful.

So um so genre freeze done a 4 omenn job on documenting how like the what homeless problem。 It's not just a almost problem. It's a drug and mental almost problem. Point is in the early twenty tens, when something could have been done about IT, there were a few tech guys who made in politician comments about, you know, the sudden epidemic of needles and syringes and pop. This guy greg gotten nor guy Peter SHE and yeah maybe they posted in like, you know maybe you might not use exactly that language, but obviously there you know it's a lot less a offensive then some crazy guy throwing feces at you in the street, right? And and more importantly than the N G O, whose feeding in drugs and getting paid by the city to do so.

they can mean things about the people who were chasing you down the block and down.

That's right. That's right. So what happened was the finals at that time that was tech people turned on.

well, well.

but but the reason was there is a bunt. If you go back and look, Peter shi, greg government got destroyed by the media at that time, and then people cut off of that as well. That's what i'm supposed him, was to yellow them, right? And they became for years, IT was incredibly unp c to even mention the problems that temptation could be happening.

So IT was like disabling the immune system during the period when IT maybe could have done something more. And then this thing just got completely out of control, and IT became what IT is now. And these ngs became totally entrenched and so on. Many other kinds of things happen like that. That just like one of example of IT, where the journalist caused a giant problem, and then only after he became massive then could have be acknowledged I can see I was .

nervous to write about local politics and I I forget that sometimes but like when I have first started seriously writing in like twenty um I was nervous to touch the homeless issue and the drug issue and I just thought like this is this feels dangerous. People going to come after me. I don't care. I got to do IT and IT doesn't feel that way. Now it's it's a weird .

it's a weird thing where I have I always asked myself, is that because they're so strong or because they've become weaker?

And I think it's both of the same how they want.

Is that why they don't care anymore? Yeah, exactly. That's right. So I think it's both where the the left， the democrats, the blues, whatever, have captured the state. And so they've got the budget and so they sit their parapets and matter what we see online, the money just keeps flowing to these ngs.

They flow to them or whatever, right? So we can yell and they can law and then just go back to shipper syringes, right? Um but they have lost control the network and you know thanks, ian, and thanks to also coin by sicknes stand and slam and a bunch of other people, they've lost control of the network enough.

They're getting crushed in soft power terms every single day. And that does also matter in terms of building a parallel consensus over here. But the matter is in so far as we can convert that energy into parallel institutions. And so that's actually G V, where you are, I think um obviously you know talented and as soon as a mean maker and so on your own right. But it's also fortunate that this happened to it's not good that happen to you, but it's fortunate to in two and twenty three, when we have this whole ecosystem, right?

So you know in in the mid twenty tens, what happened is some poor tech guy and IT could be very junior person, or the most senior executive will just get targeted and just torn limb from lib on twitter, where he was such an overloading advantage of forces for the bad guys that even somebody liking a tweet in their defense would get power. Zed, for the like, right? And that means do you think about like the, you know, the eye balls are just cowering twitter for anybody who had the thought of defending somebody? okay.

And so that was a level of, you know, control that they had over the platform. And thus our minds and the signals, everything rarely very ugly time. And a lot of people.

the killings that would feel like you like the James, the more thing where he wasn't even posting publicly, he was posting internally on a channel. F he was, uh, google right? Was a google face.

yeah. Or like, what happened to one person? When do I get up completely fake episode okay. Um you can look at this article and facts. Conditional tly be held OK there.

There's tons of these kinds of things that happened in the twenty tens where good people were just attacked and the nobody to defend them. And so then what happened though, sadly, gradually, year by year, we built enough followers until there's a really interesting tipping point. So in twenty twenty, I funded this.

There's an I made that public as an nigeria go to the annaly's is tech journalism is less ever in tech low now of course, now we're in two thousand twenty three. So we know that D I D I E stupid, okay? And we can actually say that fine.

But back then, essentially there is a huge to do made about how why the ticket and not the kind of person who believes why is an insult. They are and yet they were far, far Whiter than all of us. Okay um but here's the thing you know a song at to your point is when you go and look at the raw data over here, you look at the raw spread sheet, you see a very interesting phenomenon.

And the interesting phenomenon is that back in two and twenty, this is like three years ago, there are only a few journalists who had more than like a hundred thousand followers on their own. It's like three or four, okay, what what? But lots of founders had way more than that.

And I realized something. He was like a lightbox, like, wow. The journalists are not exceptional in their own right as individuals. They're not like carissa tic people who people want to listen to.

They can only win if they team up and groups behind brand names and then attack the guy who stands out that, you know, it's actually this remarkable thing when you start looking at, of course, followers aren't everything in some. But IT was IT was remarkable. What a difference there was where IT was a hugely right shift distribution of founder following to journalist. And so then once he long took over twitter and he stopped whatever algorithm boosting, artificial boosting those guys were getting.

yes. Well, that this just that has been that has been framed by journalists. I've seen journalists talk about this on threads are as ella is now boosting nefarious people.

He's not boosting. He's just twitter doesn't have enough people working to to manage all this at this point. There are just simply no longer boosting these kinds of people for years.

They ordered like how that random VC, who says everything that they like but has never made a successful deal in his life, like the face of venture capital on twitter. Or like, why do these people stood so much gazing? They're being pumped in the trending topics by a team at twitter that was propping them up that no longer exists.

And now in twitter moments, twitter moments, remember twitter moments?

Yes, I I, I ask almost, I think. And like every couple months, I like, take tear down this wall. Yes, to your moments.

People didn't know IT by name because IT wasn't like like google maps. You go to map to google or colum, right? So to her moments was not something that was publicly named. So people to know what IT was. But the basis is a thing where when you logged into twitter, IT would show you the trending new story of the day that they had picked, and you'll give you some prompting as to how you are supposed .

to think about IT in a .

person you are supposed to attack. Yes, exactly. So some poor smoke would basically have the two minutes hate of our world directed at them.

right? Raising that IT was like the lottery that surely .

Jackson the story, the negative lottery. Oh yeah. yes. exactly. right. So here, here's basically though, now what we have is what we've done as we've flanked the the traditional legacy media from two directions, both ultrasound from content of tweet and ultra long form of podcast, where they're a relatively weaker, you know, then there and so now it's obviously its content, but it's also distribution channels.

They didn't have years and years and years of lexi dispute changes are there in the message, right? And in tech in general is about going going you know to the extremes on on some new channels like the office. Very small is the content and very long, right.

And um so now and then you tweet out the podcast right? Or in the podcast you talk about the tweet, right. So we're fleeting and of course, what he an is done with the video self has made that even easier to do.

That said, by the way, I do think of twitter. You know how like there's a famous or least family can istanbul consistent able it's which is hands back in fourth because it's so strategic its location, you know that's what twitter is. And IT was know free in the freest party and then IT switch hands and IT became the regimes tool and now it's back to consent. Noble, but I don't know where it's gonna in two or three years. They are checking the heck out .

of out of elon ahead. I think the next battleground is l EMS rate. At the other day, it's about information supply chain attacks rate.

If the media is you, they have absolute power over information flow, then have extremely high soft power. We eroded that power with technology in the age of social media. They're still bitter about that.

And now the media are trying to serve certain convents or or or who have whichever authority ans are pulling the strings. They're trying to ensure that this complex that they are part of maintains, controlled over or gains control of the new information supply that's emerging, that is, l ms. They want to be able to shape the cultural priors of the L M S.

That shapes how they speak. And if l ms. Become like the new google search on steroids, right, which they are poised to do. They are going to become a source of truth, right?

And that's why we need decentralize .

A I exactly I say, um you know this this is the same battle over and over. There are kind of like still. Or that they lost the the social media battle, right when when they have like so of uh a sort of regime installed within twitter and they have like soft control over twitter.

Everything was fine when elon came in, bought twitter and disrupted everything. Then then they demonized him and they said that he's dangerous and and what not when he's just trying to ensure people of the freedom to speak further record, you know, like in the older regime. My first bejesus account got god boot IT right. I said that and I I got locked out and I couldn't get back in. So the original sub stack was from my um um my my original account because I I said, you know cover him from a lab which IT seems higher, you know very high likelihood right.

while that the O G bef got cancelled for recovered because I feel like at this point, journalists look back on that. A lot of people, I mean, anyone in the kind of in the one party state, looks back on covey and really tries to pretend that IT didn't happen.

And the soit lability in particularly is one, it's like that in hundred bidens laptop are the two things that they really just will scream to your face that nobody was censored for, nobody was kicked off a flat or know what never happened. I was like here just making this up. And they have to do that because those two examples are so incredibly damming.

I have a couple we're honest journalists say, you know hundred five laptop one for example. Yes, IT happened, but it's it's just this one thing. Why does people get talking about IT? That people get talking about IT because it's incredibly important that we were sillies whether there was attempt made in that way.

And a label for me is also right up there. I just we couldn't talk about this very obvious question. I would say that was .

worth asking there. You know, in the background, their cybernetic control of of information propagation, their turn to control people's thoughts by by biasing what speech kids, our grath's kally amplified or surprised. It's pretty simple.

I think that you know, for code is if we there was points where we had locked down and like, look, you this was like the the authorities there were like, give us a time of control will keep you safe. This thing is very dangerous. We gave them a time of control.

IT didn't help. IT didn't help at all, right? I didn't help at all. Total failure is actually the bottom up sort of uh you know the technical capital machine is is what saved us. I did all this biotech engineering that helps save some lives um and so the only day of the lockdowns just didn't work, right? Like we still the thing is still spreading to this day um and so it's a failure of the sort of the narratives that if you give in comments in those in power, a more power right for your own safety, like voice and narrative that will do anything useful right and they want to suppress the that story fundamental .

ick thing on twitter and then get back the and my thing and to ask you maybe uncomfortable question um based on what you were just talking about so the on the on the twitter thing and the to ople P S which changing hands back and I would say one person who does not get nearly enough credit for understanding that and acting, I think morally in a sort rightist manner.

Ah what is jack dorsey who at all like first ball founder of the company, was on the free speech side, things tilted in the other direction. And then we have coverage. We see this is all the of public.

He is the reason, one of the key reasons that iran was brought in and then was able to do what he did. And I have no doubt that he knew things would get crazy with elan in the company and that things would change romantically. But my sense was, especially after hunter biden's laptop, jack felt like, IT this.

This is a power that is too great for any one person. And I like, IT needs to switch hands. IT needs, IT needs to recede.

Now speaking, a power a as biology were saying before, like we don't know where this will be in a couple of years which is why I get nervous about things like community notes existing and like the celebration over people who we don't like um you know being that checked in things like this by the platform that makes me nervous but no power I think more powerful maybe than the a IP you talking about both of you now um the centralization and I and biology you think this is the thing that we need I agree uh because from where i'm sitting, IT looks like A I is a naturally centralizing technology. I am skeptical of people who think that A I is the solution to all of our problems in we do have to keep IT. Yes, there's a super broad conversation here on this topic specifically.

I am nervous about the amount of power that very few people have on't worried about some way. A I um I don't see a lot of a small players, you know, upstarts with powerful L, L. I see um I see the giant companies have these things and they have terrible track records on this question of speech in particular.

And I when I look ahead, it's you know it's there is a very real possibility to the people who control these are the sensors and these things know like you have a handful of these things that are shaping our reality. Who is writing those rules? Certainly not me.

And so you need our center. They seem like centralizing native centralizing technologies to alizad to A I I don't see that I don't really see that happening. Um I think that you can want that, but I don't know that is the natural I know .

what so you know I mean I I agree that in the current pair dim with the sort of our efficiency and density of neural computer have use, there is a huge advantage to just building a football field supercomputer, scraping all the data over of the internet and like training one big aliza model. But at some point that sort of the advantages of doing that are sort of get to get eroded away.

And you know the big income vents hopefully can compete each other, others margins out a and and then there's gonna sort of like uh an advantage to sort of decentralizing A I bringing A I towards the data. Um we're still far from there for now. That's right.

There's kind of like um just a big advantage and just being a big centralized player. And unfortunately, right, like I said, you know, l, ms are kind of the future information. Uh, you know, highways, right? For for people, you is much more natural to ask. And L, M, that's human like to to get information either from the internet or from your database and what not and if what else are like to say is shaped by few people in some in some room with like normous uh cultural uh and soft power, I think that's that's pretty the stop an and IT opens up. You know it's kind of turn to authority ism, right? It's kind of like it's even more subversive, uh, sort of form of uh, sensor ship and you know those that want to have that sort of power, of course, uh you know are going to push for uh you know A I to be centralize that they can go up these organza that have the monopoly alcopop and they want to you know they want to form such an aly open so that they have such power.

And and it's not disruptive by by say, up incoming startup s and so you know that's why sort of like you know this executive order they have like compute cap rate, like very close to what you know current begin comments, uh H A matter computer throw into their models H R and they want to ban sort of open source models uh or or or make them like a dual use technology that you need to report the government so you know they they'll have control over whoever pops up as a as a big um you know provider of l ms uh to me that's really the stop. Um I think the p probability of one thousand and eighty four superior to P A. I doom ah by a lot.

And you know I still invite A I do mors to you know explain to me how they think like A I get a firm and take over as someone who's used AI in their career to you know engineer matter and biologists and all sorts of stuff. Like I can do much hard than you think. Obviously, logy has a lot experience in this area.

Much harder, you think. So the kind of side scenarios are implausible, but the thing is there like those kind of create the demand that like talk about whom and like all these crazy sizes and areas, the instrumental to those that seek power and and and want to have the sort soft power of shaping the cultural priors of the l ms. Because then they will shape the culture of the people, and then they're going to be able to control the people.

And so you know, I think there's this this tech disruption and you know, chaos is a latter. And the existing and commence are trying to secure power in this new era, just like the kinds did by you severity and copying some of the social media giants. You know we don't want to have a twitter situation, a predal on twitter situation for l ms, again, right? We don't want that. And so you know the whole point uh of the AI policy part of ex is to maintain freedom, maintain competitors in the market, don't overregulated that serves the incumbent and that service the authoritarians ultimately. And and we should have freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of compute so yes.

you on this question, yeah what is your I mean, do you have some some any concerns at all that that you might share with the E A. People like you yeah well see the thing is .

that um you know twitter reduces the first bet is which tribes are you in you know are you this tribe that so certainly among the acceleration ist side of things in the zero one with that said, um you know when you had a second bit is uh is there a real chance of a super intelligence? I absolutely do think there is.

And the reason for that is um what most people have seen and you know over last year is let's call IT ChatGPT style A I right which is generated A I where there's a human in the loop, you know and you're prompting IT and you're typing in things and it's basic just like search engine plus plus right where you know it's not that different from google search or google images is just do you get Better results on the other side? You know, it's might be magical, but it's kind of like that, right? However, deep mind and style day I okay where it's got artificial intelligence that is winning games of goal, right? Winning games of starcraft.

That something and just looking at the map, looking at the video game, you pixel and able to figure out what the moves are and so on. Reinforcement learning that's different. That's actually the ah there's no human to loop there that just playing the game and it's superhuman already, but in a constrained and not time wearing environment that's really important.

IT is um where is a game of go give a chess a video game, right? That's something where there are rules and that thing is a kind of a bounded environment, fundamental way, right? Still, you can envision a world where the combination of, you know, the kind of planning and starcraft, you play starcraft. So like starcraft is something which you I mean certainly knew I could be very good at, like research, allocation and so on decision making.

Take that hill and send the troops and what not and you can easily imagine that the real world with drones being starcraft style you know controlled right um and you combine that with the ability to speak and general images in general video and appear in any form right like you know today of course it's appearing as text right tomorrow when when you know A I returns um a result to a query its text but soon IT can appear as if we are thing floating in three d that speaks to you in your language fluently like you know the blade runner kind of seen okay, when you combine both those things, you get something is actually fairly powerful with not that much squinting, right? And so so what I think is that every community of fairly large size, every country that survives, in my view, crop phones, or when I say crowd one, I mean the broad, a sense that could be lily with tax revenue that the most, you know, a traditional method, you know, in voluntary crowd funding, right? So but every large of community has its, I will call IT A.

I got, okay, it's network got which is all of the knowledge of that community and the values of that community, right? And so you could imagine a Christian version of this. You can imagine though there will will be different Christian version. It'll be a production version and Cathy version in a russian orthodox.

And of course, there's different dominations okay you can imagine um so I imagine many hindu versions of this right as many different kinds of you know subsection and and darmon sex and I don't know how many different ones of these are. They're definitely going to be a chinese version, right? Absolutely, there will be a chinese version and that will be a pretty fear, something that commands all those drones.

That's like a crazy kind of thing. Okay, that is only something i'm concerned about. Um but I and I do think that the part which is very underrated a the A I dumas is the difficulty of taking physical form. What I think is for a long time they'll be a synthetic oc relationship between the digital intelligence which literally lives in the cloud.

It's like lives as an electronic tic wave, you know in a sense, right? And us as physical beings, right? And these are like coordination mechanisms for us at one way of thinking about IT is um the network god replaces George washington or leak on you or the leader or the state that's at the center of you know your hubs spoke apology of your society, right? You have some wise thing, some decision maker that you go to for decisions, okay? And if you could go to something that just had infinite band with and that gave you an immensely amazing answer that was really good, that was supported by all of your history, and IT could do so instantly well, that almost like a really good CEO that um you know can almost micro manage the entire society. Okay, that's not impossible given what we've seen.

Let me I would I would I don't know, like I I think from my perception and control standpoint, like yeah if you have perfect perception and prediction ability in principle, you can have like centralized top down control that in reality, you know having sufficient perception everywhere and and having a predictive model of the world that has many variables.

very link i'm not saying to be clear when I say Better than human, i'm not in i'm nited right. I'm just saying that basically your civilizations ai will have just like you know there's like a the catholic church and IT has a bunch of um you know various cardinals and step and then there a pope at the top right, the interpreting scripture and so on.

Imagine something sort of like that where you have a bunch of engineers milling around and making edits to the network god or the AI god or whatever you want to call IT that at the center of your civilization. And dyak edits almost like breeze, you know, interpreting scripture, or today, lawyers interning the constitution around the president. That's a known form, whether it's cardinals and press circling, you know, some have religious figure, or its lawyers and politicians and sign circling, some had political figure. You have engineer circling this sort of head A I figure right? Yeah, yeah, yeah good.

So the future like you you said this is, well, like is is the tic I got yeah um instead and what what sort of the income bits want is they want monotheism. They want to shape that god, right? And they want control over that god.

And it's kind of funny how the is. And A I do mors or you know, they actually work very often for these organza. They work in anthropic at open the eye. They get jobs there and they both like fear this god but but are working to create IT and want to make sure there's only one and that's kind of IT.

which is so like yeah but the here's what IT is A I alignment is actually ea alignment. That's the key insight, right? They want to create the A I.

And what they define as alignment is aligned with ea values. yes. Now here's the thing. Eighteen that centralized cannot be aligned with the values of eight billion people, obviously. right?

Like at a minimum, like I know india is working on its own stuff for whatever it'll have steps to buy, is got its own everybodys gona have their own stuff. And now, by the way, on the open sourcing, right? So decentralizing one way of talking about desensitize, another word of up made this open sourcing well.

So the diffusion models actually have made significant progress in open sourcing because they're easier to open source. The L M. So here, for example, playground just released one.

So give me something getting to mars right um on a shuttle. Okay, you can go here right now OK. This is the logic leases yesterday, seventy thousand downloads already.

I'll take twenty seconds and you can download this model and you can run IT in the script. Okay, that's like an okay example. I know what I was generated, I just know is but at least you can see IT works. You might have to prompt IT with more inquiries. Okay, so point point.

Like, we want a diversity of all sorts of subcultures, and we don't want to have a monoculture like, like what happened with social media. If you lize control of spread of information, essentialize control over power, the alias, the power of shaping culture, and then you end up with a monoculture and anything, the divergence from that money culture is suppressed, your cancelled.

right and right. This is the problem. What was doing about IT sounds? Obviously, what you're describing sounds Better, but the path of on is not that and skepticism or concerned over A I fuel your the giant is what is google ah IT is we have a open the eyes microsoft like bit we both .

seen what they're do.

So I like we should not trusting people and they have the power.

So so so my guy grew you but I D also say, uh, the rebels aren't without anything. Lama too. I mean, zc is a real MVP on open source. Seeing A I right is .

is zx the champion of speed?

And here's a thing like I know that sounds crazy, but here's the thing um ceos in any given vertical will counter position against the arrivals, right? If one guy is leading with the close source centralized version, often analytics one C, E, O, who will counter position with the open source version, right? And so what's up decide to do, which is very smart, is is like, okay, rather than go ahead to head with ChatGPT and so on, we're going to go the opposite stream and were gonna lease this open source and lona I is I mean my wrong like lamta is quite popular as yeah, yeah.

yeah no. I mean, that's totally true. I would say that there are startups mistral know, I mean, we have perplexity replant that they've all started tons of startups or training their own model. And and the point is like it's a road power away from the big centralized players, right? It's like i'd rather have a model that has less problems or maybe had a bit less data, but at least it's it's it's free to actually tell you its thoughts.

IT doesn't have sorts of prompt engineering and reinforcement learning uh to to suppress its own speech uh you know like, I mean, now there is essentialize models are so scared to say anything, cancel able, they're not that that useful. I think like I think the market is gna like value freedom. Uh, you know, at some point and we got a, we got a like it's been a very fast sort of um it's been very fast progress in the I and and the difference between a centralized approach versus a decentralized approach.

The centralize approach, you can steer IT very quickly, right? If you have billions of dollars of capital, you can build a supercomputer. You can hire a bunch of people and train a massive model on a wanted to your time scale.

The thing that kills the incumbent is time, because the variants of having many open source folks kind of searching over hyper primary space, searching over space of techniques. And A I is that at some point, the explore an area of the big centralized players can because they need to make one big bet on a one huge centralized model. And so over time, variance winds over centralized control is just were on a short time scale right now.

So IT seems like we're losing, but the realities that we're not trying that far behind. And if once you've trained these large models and and they got at some point they put in so much capital per model, there's gotta like leave IT there and just let IT, you know, recp, it's a losses through through revenue at some point. Uh you know that's going to give time for the open source models and the open source community to sort of uh do a more diversified search over uh uh the space of models .

and start eroding away their market advantage.

就是 G V can you uh can you raise your right hand and go like that？ OK why? Because that we can do IT. I'm not sure where the videos are that like high five crypto ex OK because. You gave a talk right around to our home, whatever, but I am sure you can make that work in the video right, because he was why reinforcements are coming. And let me make a few arguments here.

First is um viti put a proposed other day and decentralized acceleration and that means I think the third community is gna get into uh crowd funding uh open source AI models um bef gave a talk at the nevers conference a few weeks shows the great talk also one kind of aligning cyp to and and it'll be various schools of this okay you know the bit kind people have one view and here and people in another view and song of people have another view. Uh the other so lot as lot of people right um and that's a huge pool of capital right to crowd and and come back to that point number two is that um these centralize eyes are getting lobotomized right there. They're being made dummer because they have to be inoffensive.

They're even becoming like millennia in another way, not just woke but lazy where they're like on strike and you know they won't finish your uh code snip IT and we'll say you can fill in the rest yourself and like I don't want you to fill IT, I it's all point the the suggest to fill IT in right okay number three is um as president um I know where you talking about is a cathedral in the bizarre G V right which is you know decentralized for profit development win or does decentralized open source development win? And we often find in many spaces IT is a still mate between them right? Like linux is very, very popular.

I mean, linux on the desktop is arguably worked in the sense of android is linux on the desktop and even IOS is bsc under the hood. It's unique on the test top in the sense right is a very customized version. And so you know whether it's uh windows, linux or its IOS android or IT is you know the close source SaaS version was the open source version.

You know you have get up and then you get get lab right and and then you know you I am pretty sure for because of the huge vantages as a developer and engineer, you can have consortia. You're always seeing this would to buy in other places. You have consortia that say, look, we don't want to be choke pointed by microsoft as as much as I respect something in those those execution, as much I respect some altman's execution in the firmly, firmly, well, should make tons of money.

I want them to have as much money as, you know, stacks of money. That's great, right? They deserve IT still, money is fine.

Power is not right. We need to decentralize power. And and I think a lot of organizations, lot of smart people around the world, they're kind of working on that. And I think the undammed tal thing the gb is saying is the two time concerns that are not obvious. How it's gna pan out is how much Better the centralized models get before the decently alist models catch up.

Like that is to say, you know can these improve so much faster before these other one's catch up? Or you know what are those two time concerns look like, right? That's not obvious to me how that how that works um and I guess we'll see I mean the fact that google with all google resources put out this um you know you I saw the gami video yeah yes right.

If you look at their blog post, they are I mean they kind of helped IT along a bit right like that video was edited and so going to post this, I love the people. There are some of them really, really skill, but in some ways that doesn't look like these are improving as fast as we thought. You know in the sense of like you may maybe general vi um is uh there's five thousand applications of IT.

But um what I said there's a world where these things saturate and then open source catches up. If they don't saturate and they just keep going like this and open source can catch up. I don't know what happens on that.

I will wrap IT up and I want to do IT I want to tie IT back to kind of like the the original sort of yeah opening of the chat always railer day um on this topic of yeah I guess walking tours and more dealie ed future a big part of the dad is protecting the players involved in that space. And I think increasingly they will be under attack in all sorts of ways. I don't know that.

I don't know that you're at risk really in the way that you want to work is look at you down. I mean, you totally fine. Your companies raise SE the money as like your go here, you say no, you say you think .

you're not really I think I mean, I know you know obviously is more they're swarming now as you as biology, you predicted the scarious sentence in the english language is biology was right and i'm experienced in that. So you know there will be more pieces. They come out and you know um there probably could be as nice um we've .

seen your tweet. They're not it's like .

i'm literally just arguing for freedom. And if if I get taken down for that, then so be IT.

Um and I think you know the great unification here is like, you know mike, you want sort of freedom of press of freedom of you know freedom of speech and pology wants freedom of exchange, freedom of the nomination and I I want freedom of compute and all these three things were kind of all unified as pro freedom against convenience, against the authoritarians trying to have centralized control of everything. And and that's why we're all problematic, right? And that's why we have to band together and fight.

That's what we're doing here. And we're having this discussion. And hopefully, IT inspires people from sort of all three types of liberty on camps to to collaborating. so.

But that's a really good that's a really good way to kind of slater freeze to speak balloch you for me to act. They are framed to compute. I think that's really good. You know, summary go.

And well, I guess I wanted just ask them, and this was for ebola. Gy, like how do we? How do we? I guess how do we how do we fight until we achieve our goals? Like what is the wait to keep you mentioned earlier the video game analysis of the new government swing up on the field, right? Like how do we protect those people um and how do we, I guess, protect like the key players um as we build towards a world I think to be all kind of want to be a part of.

So I think first is probably you know you and I should write um like a post that has both immediate tactics and history lesson for the Young guns. And we also make a video like a tiktok style ninety second video, do not talk to journalists. And then was the second I said, don't fucking talk to journalists.

You do not try to violate this rule. You will regret IT right and then give all the kind of things there right. And then you know truly by the way, I can talk about this like but there's the the concentrate journalist by the way, there's um is talk er or in a journalist even though he's got A T V show.

No is not why? Because he's red. Is CGTN a journalist? Know their chinese right? Is black Green wall or are we journalists?

Know we're tech journalist so but we're tech media, you know so it's not actually the practice is the tribe. And so we have just built up our own tribes capabilities. And when you think of tech tribe as its own tribe, we have our own media.

We have our own decentralized, ideally A I. We have our own gypt currencies and certain soft. And so I think that's really the the right step is tribe formation. And then if you're in the tribe, then we have certain guidance from the tribe elders. And if you're not, then okay, god help you, you know and then we probably want to have some admission mechanisms and and so and so for the badgers and things of that nature. So I think that .

might be where things go in a city .

with that and a city, yes.

but I was a podcast for another day. Um you guys IT has been the realist. Thank you both for joining a big fans, obviously of both of you, embodiment friend as well.

Gilt will be soon, especially out that you're out of the shadows. Um why is subscribe to this podcast? I never asked. And IT actually is very important for the algorithm. Please subscribe like IT so it's your friends ah and we will catch here next week later.