Mega Pod! Debate Recap, Trump Coin, DNA, The Downfall Of The Squad, Green Cards (ft. Martin Shkreli)
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So now, is that an official trump coin? Like.

what does that mean? The best part is that I didn't make a doll from this. Parents make fifty million dollars from that. You kind of left me in the large year. I think there is still crazy people out there to think you and I are making everything, but half of them are that I love the the is like.

but there's supposed to be on our side. They donated their whole life savings. They say every dollar I have, I bet on this. And like, well, I believe IT one and two that sounds like a you problem should have thought that ah the news that I reported on for gw fireworks at the time was correct. You're welcome.

What's up, guys? Welcome back to the pod. Um a little bit switched up this morning.

We've got first of all, mad in the hot seat today. So the uses producer mad. I mean, I shout out mad all the time. I always the many he going, get me a clip or fix something, you're finally getting to meet the man the myth, the legend, the reason that in the hot seat is because everybody else is fucking at the town.

I is going on break um where the last ones left we have to before the rest of this episode which we recorded yesterday, we obviously have to talk about last night unbelievable debate um and and I can't do that alone I need my boy met to help me out just like guide me through IT I just before we get to IT, we're off next week. Um um any other updates I did like we're off next week. Um we have a whole episode coming up. We got we've got gilling episodes in huge moster episode. And now the debate recap, I think I had I was taking notes like for this I was taking notes you know going through points and positions and somewhere I mean like ten minutes I realized this is useless because the debate is not about these issues that I have to start with.

An apology might take the other day and something I say a lot is um you know debates are meaning list their point, list they're useless st they're more about you know redirect them positions they're never meaningful and we should probably just get rid of them generally like I think of three hour rogue conversation or really a conversation on pie wires set me up um would be more useful just uninterrupted a meandering talk through through policy issues and things you can really get to know somebody in the mechanics of this debate. I was like there's no way it's like cnn's involved. They're to be clamping down on the mike thing.

Um I thought trump would be fine in that format but overall, because he's a performer and he can you know he cracks cracks any medium is what he does like IT separating his policy positions or him as a president you cannot deny that he's savant level entertainer um so he was always going to thrive no matter what the medium was but I just didn't think we d get anything important out of this debate. I thought we'd walk away and everybody would declare Victory and nothing would matter and we've move on as if IT never happened that i'd have some fun tweet whatever. Um no what happened instead was we had, I think, the first meaningful presidential debate in um my entire life and maybe there was one like back decades and decades ago that I don't know.

I maybe like the nixon Kennedy debate because IT herded in america, new era of debate. IT was a medium shift. That's interesting. What we saw last night was a man who was so in joe biden, so mentally not there right? Like so degraded, so obviously seen, ie.

That we should not even be discussing the new primary with who's going to be his replacement, which is now the sort of dnc discussion is like how are we going to get rid of this person who's clearly mentally unwell? We should be discussing the twenty fifty men. We don't have a president right now.

He's not mentally there. Like two minutes into IT I look over at a friend with me in in the room. I was watching in tween and stuff and I just want to make a quick check check with him.

He's like of not super online, more of a moderate on all of this stuff. And I had said, no, this is crazy, right? Like or is IT crazy like my what am I seeing here? And he's like, this is fucking crazy.

Um he seemed to forget where he was. He lost his train of thought on every single question. He couldn't make a single point. He fumbled and mumbled through everything.

I I do, bro, I don't what IT was your take? I don't even, I don't even really know to say other than like, listen, the facts are he's mentally unwell. I don't know how he will be running for president.

I think there's almost no chance at this point. Every single democratic Operative is in sort of redolent status right now. Everybody is talking about what happens now that the democrats have ditched dodd's an entire primary season.

And there's gonna some weird black back room machine. We're going to learn all sorts of the new roles, i'm sure, in the next coming weeks. Like weird rules we never new existed.

They'll be like you're an idiot for never knowing this existed. Obviously we can just select gait will be some strange ship like that but but their democracy from the democratic party has been averted. Um I think that there there has to be a new canada if there's not.

I mean, that's that's inconsiderable to me. I guess that's just inconceivable to me. I know I think there there's just there. He's not going to be the president. These are the presidential candidate.

Yeah, there has to be. I slike last night I was like, i'm just sad like legally said, I I do school twitter. It's one a few times on twitter that everyone agrees on an actual opinion even CNN ebb c where having they're like funeral last night for biden and was just pathetic.

I was like, this is really, really fucking pathetic. And no navely, I think we both went to, I ask some questions, organize my ark. I want to ask them this question about this. We didn't get the fucker issues. No, you know and I answer .

some questions that was cool to see.

I like here are not talking about that today, right? To think about everyone is talking about about you know he just he's unfair to be presented and you thought maybe they drug up enough like when he does the stay of the union. So I think navely, that's how we thought we get your usual or a copy in pace debate, but he could .

even do that a no. And I think there's a question obviously that you have to be asking yourself at this point, which if you just saw that the performance which was unlike anything i've ever seen, like in humiliating for the country, I would say not not only for him but for all of us on a world stage um I thought that you know like I mean trump's clown.

I like he's a kind of clown entertainer, reality television star running for president and twenty sixteen that that was sort of like, oh god, what are we doing here and then and then you grow, evolve your empty ion on trump based on what's happened in the world. Uh, you have kala Harris gig ling over you falling out of a coconut tor, whatever you're like. What the fuck is going on? This is embarrassing.

This is the worst one. This is like, and it's bad in a classic sort of way, which is just we are not capable of defending ourselves right now he is not the commander in chief and um and so yeah IT IT was totally humiliating. And you have to ask yourself this question of what there's no way that his handlers, which he definitely has, didn't know this and haven't known this for months and months and month and months, including all through out last year when there was an opportunity for primary.

So all of the piece of starts snapping together. And this is now increasingly, and I really saw, I saw pag gram going after biology for this kind of accusing him of a conspiracy theory and dangerous ideas. This is not a conspiracy theory.

IT is very, very fucking obvious that the dnc wanted to avoid a messy primary, a messy chaotic primary um which is why they pretended he was well and then moved the debates and others just enough time for us before the democratic convention in the summer to choose a new candidate but is going to a put him right in and I do think IT was I don't know if biden was involved in this decision making process. My sense is probably not my sense is, is not making any decisions at all right now. But I I do think that he was not put on stage with any sense by anybody who knew him that he was gonna.

okay. I think that they knew what was going to be a complete disaster that the entire country sure is going to be shocked to the point that they would accept the democrats once again because back that is with berty standards as well, once again fucking a primary um you know totally bypassing the democratic process and just picking somebody. But this is much more religious than what happened with hillery.

Um this this is like, this is really this so separate from the fact that he is not mentally bare, there's he. The story is that the democrats are are not democratic. This is, this is like a, this is like a mob party.

Shit, I am. I guess i'm shot. I I knew he was bad. I've said that he was bad. And I would get some of walk at the stage, walk up the friends from the shuffle. The very first step I was like, oh, no, this this is going to be this is way worse than I thought um and I think I think I thought I was bad we would get attacked you you're just being a party and hack whatever i'm like I mean, he he seemed seene to me and whatever I guess we will see um of course I am I don't have any special I don't have any sources close to the president. I had no idea that I was this bad that had degraded to this point.

And I think that today really and you see like math glaciers and who's that as from M S B C joe yeah the people doing side by sides of of commentary there's from just a couple of days ago um you yeah chAllenging anyone who said that the president was mentally unwell or make the new york times like these people all knew Better are we go they did and um he was like, I want to say I was tactically stupid but IT wasn't because I think that like for the machine democrats scabrous is not that scro just a clown on on television but you glacier is certainly is this and the york time certainly is this. I think that they wanted, I don't, you know, I don't think feel like part of a conspiracy, but I think that deep down they didn't want a messy primary either. A messy primary with what is face the Kennedy involved in probably caio jumps and anything could have happened in a primary.

They don't want that. They want SMS backroom shit where gave newsman is annoyed um and that's that and I do think it's that here i'm not confident my prediction this is we are in uncharted territory. Um i'm very confident that I won't be running because why would you? He's not only going to lose, he's a danger to every other democrat on a ticket with him. So I don't see a world in which they're able to keep him on at this point.

The cope on reading this morning is that you're vote for a minister. Not the president like trying everything .

that's been yeah that you you're voting for the deeper state you're voting for like me exactly ting for mine your voting for the machine around him that's been propping him up you know for years and years and years the administration of state and that's I mean that's a whole other if the idea that they are in this much control, I say they i'm standing spooked by foil hats on um but is just like this is a conspiracy.

I think there was a conspiracy to circumvent primary in order to have control over the selection process. Now I think maybe there was a chance that I could go. And they were like, whatever I give IT a shot, you um and he just crash and burn in a manner i've never seen.

I was I was watching on cnm. So the moment that I ended, all the panellists came on and just like, this is a fucking disaster. There's never been a disaster.

Van Jones has got to cry like, know, jack ss. Joy read on M, S, B, C was like, I was talking to people. Jesus cries. They went all in, every.

every single china. I mean, they have try to throw in stuff like I will trump. Trump .

trumped his name. The army.

He was, he was nasty. He's never going to get suburban women when he's this nasty. And like, he needs those suburban women and like one I don't know that that's true that he that he needs anybody right now. I like needs I got a certain contingent.

He seems to be doing generally well um and then too I don't can you imagine being so sexy that you think a suburban an woman is looking at the television right now? She's like, I Better take the vegetable because that guy was a little bit mean on T. V. To the vegetable I don't think so that just not my having been raised by a superman woman, I can tell you that's not the way that he thinks and that's not the way that any intelligent woman thinks. Um this is like we're in an access central dangerous territory.

And I also think there is some risk democrats now because um separate from by to weth, do you think are going to replace, which is sort of like how dare you put the country in this position? This is an interesting this is an interesting vector for attack now that we've never seen before because there are so many crazy developments happening behind the scenes that do feel conspiratorial and do feel anti democratic and do feel like really a giant middle inger not to republicans um but first obviously take republicans and so far that is a dd finger to the country generally but it's a specifically a middle inger to the democrats who are voting who have no say who their candidate is right now. Um that is um I think that that has to matter and um I don't know I I got to say I thought this was going to be A A boring I suspected there was a chance that something like this I did I thought maybe maybe drop out before the convention but I don't mostly I didn't.

Mostly I thought that we were signing up for a boring election. Yes, and and it's no longer boring. It's a wonderful thing.

I can't believe I dad at trump. I can't believe I dad at trump s is going to give us an exciting election. I really did.

But here is in I eat the the image of a the the band play on the tie. Tani, I just I feel like last night so I keep coming back to this morning as I think about IT. I'm just like the years of gas lighting now that goes back to covet, that goes back to inflation.

And some of these obvious, I was under trumpet like covered inflation and now bite its health. And like the videos have become out the past four months and like sure, you can argue on the margins there's for a doctor for like they sort of IT edited for. However, each dance wants to be so like you think you should have pants for really had trouble sitting down. But any views, look at the video unedited you go, that's an old man who I can function properly yep. And the problem was so much the past couple years like you, you know what's going on? You're city smart human beat, you know what's going on and you just told, no, that's not what's happening in not that bad the president's great and you're like what and like anyone who would like have a brain knows what's going on here and IT just the years of this and it's just is so fucking tiring and disgusting and shameful is shameful like even even you just watch a gave a newson speak yesterday he said even good he's terrible government in california release I can speak and he like got on the .

Gavin knew something is this is every single and he's a surrogate for the president they Brown is like Younger and by Younger, I think like close to sixty. So it's not not these people of that Young. He's like comparatively Young. But they are like bringing all these like the Young people out to talk about how great, bad miss in front of the cameras after buying collapses post debate because everyone knew that we only was too tired to keep going up to the debate regardless of whatever this new very clear and present danger version of mental calamity is our mental degradation is.

Um but they kept interviewing uh newsome after and then like you know, people are saying you're gna have to run now and he just like that out just and you can just see like a little smile yes, he is just friend of mine tweed a picture of side by side of him in the cheshire cat and she's I can not see IT now and it's like you could just see he's having the best night of his life he's like he recommended fucking and he also cards my way into the into the oval office now my time skipped the primary going straight up against trump it's like it's IT is IT is I mean IT makes seems like not wants to be into democracy, to be honest. It's like this it's just degraded at this point where you're like like the king just like, yeah we're right. How many for adult to just sort like take over for a minute? I would love IT if we could just have IT for four years, like a four year king and then it's got a time eline and and he he goes away. But we just in a second to like like clean this set up.

But we were told and twenty and twenty, we told the adult back in the room and like no of that has been the case.

I was told the adult or back, well, no, I mean, he's certainly, I feel like he was he wasn't he born like before world war ii or something? And he had to have been I don't know how old is he like he? This is an ancient man we're talking about.

He's gone now. I feel a little bad form. But and also, I remember no one ask him to run for president. Well, I guess a lot of people asked about the president.

Yeah, but but he was the president and um yeah and I felt bad even tweet about IT last night while was watching I genuinely did. I was like, I feel like i'm attacking this for your old guy. I saw his eclipse of him from when he was Young and he was a Young senator talking about, one was robby wade, and in one was later, I was crime.

Republicans love to attack him for the predators comment that, like you're calling black people super predators, he never did. He was talking about the problem of crime eloquently and correctly. And I was like that can I vote for that guy that he is like, we're clean enough the streets and i'm like, yes, thank you, please.

And he just he was a different guy like he was already old when he was talking about predators before that, I mean, he's been in politics ever and he wasn't I don't believe he was always a bad guy. I I think that this is a tragic end for someone who's yeah he said tried for a long time and I I think it's like the people around him have a lot to answer for. Um but then again, I think IT also is a strategy.

So it's like to answer for answer for what I didn't do IT by accident and or it's it's all on purpose. It's they're trying to get someone into the White house right now and they think that this is the best strategy, which is crates because they're supposed to be the party of norms. But I have not seen a Normal thing. And of that party for many, many, many.

many years you can see democracy on the world and not even have a primary. And just like sneak a candidate like you said, house part that great .

reference what you're going to do keep doing. They place a new guy and we're straight back to democracy. democracy.

You got a save democracy. And like, well, this is democracy. If this is the definition of democracy, I am not a fan.

I am open to, uh, new. I'm open to alternatives. If this is what democracy, if democracy, this means that a few mob bosses in dc to select where president is. I'm not interested in democracy that this is, this is crazy. This is unacceptable.

I think that's like there can be no tolerance of people now who who are defending this is like IT is so much worse than they brought up january six that was a funny line. I will say they, rob, january six last night and it's like, no trump. I forget the exact framing of the question but I was like, sir, like like, let's talk about january six he was like, let's talk about january six.

The border looks great on january six um and I thought that was funny. I don't believe, I do not believe there is a cure attempt. I I don't believe that IT was an insurrection. I believe IT was messy riot and a trump acted like a clown and could have been lot Better. But um I think that calling IT anything else is really ridiculous, especially while anti polloi is including with generals. Um you discussing what orders too into not obey while trump as president, given some whatever set of circumstances like they just have no ground whatsoever to be talking about cows or insurrections while the deep state is selecting for our next mile, I want to see the deep listen that's but I .

think that but I don't I think I just .

don't think the .

trump is .

the danger here. I really don't after last night like got be you really think about this. It's like the alvin brag, the sort of fake show trials IT is um you know who actually LED the q attempt, certainly not trump.

That was we had six months of rise that that were um you know identical proceeding preceding january six all over the country at one point. They uh on that january six question. Um after trump naked IT out of the park with his diversion, a sort of like funny diversion, biden was like, it's awful what you're defending in.

I'm not going to do with justice because it's sad to me. I don't want to like get into what I saw last night in terms of like cabins of the speech but he mentioned mobs of people um crashing into buildings, breaking windows, knocking over status. And I for a second I was actually confused.

I was like his heat. Is he talking about the B L M stuff? Like, I like the six months that was like locked in my apartment while roving mobs looted and destroyed, like the status of our four fathers across the country.

Grant being pushed over shadow to the name of anti racism like IT was a fucking cultural revolution. And I was harried ying, but no, he was talking about that one day. That was the one riot they were OK with.

And I was OK with that either. I know about time. I'm against all of the riots. I don't like any of them.

I've talked to bit on this podcast multiple times like there should be swift and very firm justice for all of the people who were riding. But IT wasn't a fucking q attempt. That's how our government works.

You don't have to just like walk into the capital and stand at the podium and then you get to be the king. Like what planet are we on? ridiculous.

But anyway, we have bigger problems now. Um yes. So now with the debate IT was wild.

I was totally wrong. Um IT was a meaning debate. I think that we're watching history unfold right now. I can imagine that something like this ever happens again in our lifetime, but then again, the rules of the clown world apply. So um you know I think it's first long as the internet exists, reality is going to be very, very weird and bucked up, I guess.

IT just said, I mean that I was see ma policy questions and we didn't even get anything. I did just it's just just the sad data that we're in and I don't know and it's .

I don't know .

where we go from here.

but it's why know where we go. We go to california, Gavin m to ford to go a couple weeks. Like what was that all about why IT was as his home? He's moving back to his home is moving away from the seat of california, a government and to a more comfortable, friendly environment.

Like for what reason? Um someone was pushing back against me online when I I defended ology from paul and I was like actually outrageous that you deny something like a conspiracy on the dnc side. This is like cover.

This is like labor c denied m at this point, I think um and someone make a carner push back like, no, no, it's really hard to do a primary and baba a is like, okay, yes, it's hard. But what do you think what do you think Gavin newson had to beat with wrong to scientist last year? We think he's running for governor florida.

You think he has did IT for fun or to what give descendest a boost in the primary race? No, of course, there was a primary on the table. It's fucking ridiculous.

It's ridiculous that we're denying this. It's it's just absolutely absurd. There's that's clearly what was happening and um and i'm outrage but i'm also i've got to be honest, like.

I've got a lot to write about now. Well that's a good to be crazy like we've got to the clown world. Chaos has returned and um we are on the front lines, my friends um thanks for tuning in. We got a crazy show free today with uh which screening we're talking about um like the me coin, we're talking about a tech round randomly. We've got a whole thing on embro ic election with delay and kh from from nucleus to me fn show we're off again. We're off next week for fourth july uh go watching fireworks which should be happy birthday on the first of july please some pieces coming out empire wire and make sure to subscribe um to all of our news letters to get all that great content and catch you back in a couple weeks.

I'll see you guys for the next american disaster.

What's up, guys? Welcome back to the pod we have honestly in an iconic guest with us today, the legendary Martin square. Um I think thoughtful artist um perhaps I mean looking you're autistic and loney t shirt I just kind of working with IT sort of to some internet villain.

We can unpacked a little bit that today. Um I don't think so. I think it's I think it's a complex question. Um but we are here to talk about a bunch of stuff, Martin zon for the whole episode. Um we have a bunch of topics to hit and i'm going to get, I think to start with one that you can I kind of involved in together. And I think there's no way sort of not out of talk about this.

Last week we talked a bit about the um dona trump coin sort of the story and the controversy and all of that I think this week but I really want to talk about this is really this other to me quite interesting piece of this puzzle um which deals with betting markets in general. So the trump coin news was breaking by us a the bedding markets tt involved and there was a question of, um there are two big ones that I want to talk about. Uh, the first was like, is the is the D J T is IT real I think was the framing of IT.

Um and I think that's a complicated question like what is what makes a mean coin real? And it's like that there's more nuances that are in my mind. The second question was is bearing trump involved um which he was so I both of them resolved as no which to me is incredibly controversial and calls a lot of the sort of fundamentals here to question um I will say U A which U M A which is the um protocol that is used by a what was used by polymer this case on the barn trump question in particular was he involved.

Uh this is like the vote is how people vote um so you have a bunch of sort of people online who are anonymous voting on the question. Um you're looking for a sort of ponderous of evidence before x date and and they they said no ah which is sort of really distorting for somebody who knows that is not true. And it's further complicated by the question of like where they betting honest themselves.

There are other people who have now lost money for being right. Uh uma was sort of proudly announcing the decision. I would say they kept come piled driving into they wouldn't just leave IT alone IT was like they were like of course we're ride and like fuck you for questioning IT um they add just endless people online attacking everybody who was like a wait a minute it's you have no evidence that IT didn't happen.

I seems like I get correctly what is going on here, but poly market broke with them and sort publicly denounced their decision. And I think that IT seems to me like this is going to be um a huge thing moving forward. I imagine this probably some sort of firm break with U A in general coming.

And I think there has to be some reconceptualize ation of like what are what kinds of questions are we allowed to even not even allowed? What kind of questions are we capable of answering here? So brief primer betting markets we talked to about them before.

But for people just sort of catching up, um you know is Donald trump going to win the election straight for our case uh, yes or no. People bet they make their predictions. And I just like yours of gambling.

I think it's interesting that as a new layer onto reality, for me it's a new tool for sort of assessing um how much people believe what they're saying. You know do you believe this thing enough to put money down on IT? That's an interesting piece of information.

I think it's scale is sort of still we don't know quite how that's gonna break down and reshape cultural conversations and things, but in general in favor of this new piece information ah but we did come to A A point you know here where I got more complicated and Martin, you you're sort of what of the central character you would probably be central character at this point um I would love your perspective on this specific like big of conceptual peace. Um what are these betting markets capable of doing? And then also just narrow, what is your thoughts on U M.

A? Yeah I mean, thanks for having me. By the way, it's coming anytime. Obviously, you know markets are sort of information discounting machines. They've been doing that for really welfare hundreds of years. Um you know a stock market is good at sort of predicting if a companies going to be successful in the future because lots of smart people maybe like you uh and let's show me will will go study the company and say, okay, this looks like good company.

This one isn't and you sort of have uh a market, whether that's private equity in duta capital, uh, like you do or uh you know public companies like I used to do, lots of people in the room can kind of generally get IT right now. I I think that taking that and applying IT to other things is a good idea. Um you know I do think that stuff like who will president be IT wasn't surprising surprising to see the very famous um you know pollster uh sort of arrive at the same conclusion as polite market for presidential lots.

A lot of people thought that was kind of like art imitating science, or science kind of following art or whatever. I think that um you know pretty accurate but but the problem becomes like what kind of things can you apply this to? Our markets good for everything.

Can markets be determined to say whether or not your your shirt is actually like that has really not kind of great because there is subjective opinions and some experts to say, no, that's that's wonderful shirt and some if the crowd says no, it's terrible. Who are you citing with who's right? And I think markets just don't have that ability to solve everything.

And in this case, you have this like very basically irrelevant thing. Like did this guy make a mean point? I said this guy is the president present on the still you know something that basically relevant um you know it's not about you know something that will remove billions of dollars or something like that too.

You you're really trying to like force these these tools to apply the things that are really kind of micro markets or are irrelevant. I think ever you do that as in in in the financial markets, these really small um markets are more inefficient than say the bigger market for like an apple or whatever. When you get to these really small markets, you can get IT wildly wrong.

For example, when strike you know sold comment stock at five million dollars, every money they got a wrong, you know they sold for a lot more. The guide bought got a really right and obviously uh you know the opposite has happened with all of our bad adjustments in the world um you know where we should have never done IT, but we we had a mispricing and apple, you're more or less your chance of mispricing. Apple is very, very small in the public market.

So you know I think that when you apply them to really, really small markets, you're going to get that massive kind of inability to get the right answer because when nobody cares, there's one of people to actually put enough money into a market this small to actually care enough to get the good market outcome for that. You need time and eating money. And you sort of missed both here where Polly market had a very short ation bet and over long hall, even a small market will probably resolve reckless if it's time for players to come and stay away as I can.

I study this. I looked at all the evidence. I don't have time on monday because I have business, business. But on tuesday, I figured I started my research. I day figured out they wanted this done in like twenty four hours and and that .

leads to a ton of of issues. Yeah, I think that if you'd frame IT slightly different than you had said, just will barren trumpet talk about IT by friday? Will in trb admit something or deny something by friday? That is very easy to prove. But to say like is IT true by friday is IT feels honestly well, I don't want to really crazy words out there, but IT certainly doesn't work.

And even if barn trump in that week, in a few days, had come out and said I wasn't involved, what would that have proven? That wouldn't prove anything if he said he was not involved, not in my mind, because I know that he was involved. So who whose, where do you take at that point and like that that just obviously proves I think that this paci c kind of question that is you mentioned I heard you on uh spaces last night talking about this is talking about like, you know, is the dress pretty or not um I bet even that's an even obviously and even stupid example that should never happen.

This one is a little bit less nuance but still just like how do you prove these things in court? I got a murder trial, right? There's not an obvious answer to this like you're weighing ing evidence in deciding.

So I don't it's like interesting to know what the market thought, but if there's no answer here, then it's ultimately not a very meaningful question to ask. Like there's there's an answer that they can actually answer and they worked. I was in a very surreal place where I was like, you know, hundreds or maybe I ve noted many people were voting of people who don't know anything about this.

We're deciding what they thought about, what I knew for sure, based on vibes. I like just genuinely like the overall vibe. And certainly I don't think that I was really a big part of that thing was really you IT was really like a referendum.

You like, do I like Martin hot, right? And resolution was no. And and that is not useful to me like that and it's certainly not.

I mean, maybe if I was like if polled, will most people say they don't like matter? I don't even know. I don't know this is stupid stuff. But anyway, yeah can say I think there's a flaw there. I'm excited to see how it's patched up.

Yeah I think the uma um people were were actually like you could see that they had a sort of you know bias here, like the way they needed about IT and stuff like that.

They won in an interest in worthy bedding also on Polly market.

I don't know what they did and I want to be careful about that but I do know that there are tweet and messages and stuff like that. We're all like we want this to be true. It's obviously true in terms of um me not being involved in that I am sorry we are not being involved that I made IT up.

They're like, we are sure that this is the case, this guy, such a bad guy, and it's just something that we know what happened. They don't. And to vote on something that you weren't, therefore is just bizarre.

And this this is why media, you know uh needs to be trusted, is actually an important institution and that you know a lot of people know right wing want media to crumble because we hate them and they tell lies when you read the wall street journal and the walsh journal says of microsoft is in talks to buy um activision, you believe IT because you know somebody the blustery journal doesn't want to get fired. They don't want to just put that you know down and pretend happened and some editors looking at and saying, he john, before we run the story, would you talk to at microsoft? H, I talk to.

Thank you. Oh yeah. Can you send me that or or you you know, maybe I can verify from somebody else. You know, you don't want to just run with something without sort of having researched IT. And I think people know you in your reputation and your access information and and you you would never do that and even on just me, uh, embarrass sort of telling you about what what we were up to. I think even that alone isn't enough that you know we we touch around fifty people and you talk to some of those people like that. So ultimately, it's it's just kind of insane to me IT was real and and partially kind of resulted to me acting a little bit like surprised and like what you guys are really crazy, aren't you? Well.

and also your reputation is on the line clearly like you ve gone through a lot. You have a certain kind of reputation online. You know that if this is framed as you're lying about something in doing a scamp thing, it's over forever like it's you have a lot at stake. Understand that um to be clear, talk to many people and i'm going to reveal them because remarked you brought you kind of announced that you had talked to me and so I was happy to sure of speak about that but I don't am not quite if someone firmly denies something that I reported who was involved in this and there .

are still crazy people out there to think you and I are making everything up IT is really I really .

bothers me so one and I would love you're professions on the two sons um the one piece that I thought was like much more easy to sort of tackle and it's going to lead in to our next topic, which is fuck in tech rich. Um they there's I saw hope there are other bedding markets and they're all shilling their market right now. And so I think I love Polly market um just pulled the exposures and also to invest the ban and I I love the guys over there um but there are bush and they were so like we're running this thing and uh only the only reputed able news sources it's like like fox news or CNN like not pirates res in my sala and that is bags or is sort of IT puts to the forefront now um a kind of classic question that we've been grappling with for many years at this point um which is like what makes them Better than us um why why do you have to work for the new york times for your opinion as a journalist to matter for like it's it's just trust space. They get things wrong all the time. I don't trust them um and that is um like very frustrating to me that we're having this question again now with people who are supposed to be like, I don't expect that from the degen community like like deep, like online, like ship posting peppy the frog in their image and they are like Better get A A new york time source that that's crazy is like what are we doing here um you god mark what you think about a text difficult .

and one of the things that you I learned a little bit crp twitters you've got like this subset of a crypto tor that's really smart you know whether that's a charlie uh noise or like you know um joy who you work with or like there's real juices out there talking about crysta. But I think most of crypto twitter you know and then then sort of i'm being hear cleaner's i'm talking about the plurals, but half of them are deplorable if what I love the five .

of deplore like but there's supposed to be on our side.

they're actually deplorable. Like I like the departed les that we like, there are the forty percent of those we like in fifty percent of because there are literally just people that have gotten like they're so either in or out of all out of their mind that they want instant gratification. They can think or logically, they look at something and and shop from the hip ah. They don't want to believe something that doesn't feel right to them. And so what everybody did hear, as they said, post proof, post, post proof and I said, well, you know, this is pretty uncomfortable the .

present so it's great who's going to give you inform? Who's going to trust me ever again? If i'm like the second I get into a bind online, i'm like, well, here's everyone I talk to, hear their names, go help them.

And then IT drags damp like their people. There are people who I think of this point, people know are involved. There are many who nobody has even mentioned, like very prominent people, people whose name you will know. And i'm like, i'm going to give you that in fucking the million years at some random anonymous to generate like szot onic child, probably a thirteen year old, is telling me to tell them who I like. never.

I got five hundred box on some check coin or something like .

that and had done in their whole life savings. They every I have, I bet on this and like, well, don't believe in one and number two, that sounds like a huge problem.

Should have thought that through. Yeah I mean, I do think that that's right. And ultimately, that's what the role media has to play.

So we have to trust media. Uh and if you don't trust strong media, you can trust others. And at the very least, could take with a grain of sol.

I'd might not fully trust the new york times, but if they're saying I didn't considers firing, you know. Hg, just director, this probably consider IT mean, you know, that could be a plant that could be fake. But you know whether that happens or not, you have to make your adjustment.

We have to use the information. And what's unit about this is the whole crypt. Twitter said, more, you don't believe you.

You making this a lot be going back to jail and I said, cool. Uh, what should I do? This said, post proof, post proof. So I post the proof they said, it's so terrible of you to take a year just taking .

adventure of him, and he wasn't involved. Both things are true at the same time.

And the best part is that I didn't make a dollar from this. Parents made fifty million dollars from that. You kind of left me in the lurch year having to defend this and defend myself, and I will bearn, but ultimately put me a really uncomfortable. So now, you know, the accusations are, we know you, we know you guys made this with you in you by giving him and making him fifty years you know he is just a child is eighteen years no one you think and i'm just sitting here like you people are fucking crazy and I think you're instant reaction all this was i'd never want to report a critical that yeah it's people .

I want to out as like how do I get out of IT now? How do I build a time machine and never touched this is like I don't people is assumption is like, oh, he doesn't to get involved because he he's in what i'm right about every there's nothing that I said that wasn't true at the time that I so now is IT an official trump coin?

Like what does that mean I would I would require trump to, I guess, announce or something like the the news that I reported on for three pair wires at the time was correct. You're welcome. I want to talk about tech runs though.

This is a mainstream media, uh, source. Tech log is interesting, but how I don't know how plugged in to sort of dumb techne you are. Okay, so so we're up tech rudge. I don't know. Thirteen years ago when I started working profound respond um was this .

kind of like embarrassing.

like silly. They're like the crunch awards. They are giving awards out to start up founders and like uh, they have a whole stable of people who are just writing stories though about startups like weirdly, not that bii ont think that bias, just almost like press releases, just like this company exists.

They are trying to do X, Y, Z. They were funded by whoever IT was like a this era of tech that was kind of rava. Like, yeah, start up.

We're going to build companies, change the world, which we all like role our eyes about at the time, but in the hindsight was like really kind of charming in sweet and a look, a nice time to be in tech. IT was actually very exciting. A lot of companies did change the world, reshape our entire reality that were built .

during that time. There are all kinds .

of there s at the the list that would had nothing to do with us. technical. Ch, you.

but he was.

I know he was. He was a nice era. Now a media changed pretty sharply in like twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen especially and in two thousand sixteen. And once trump when I was over tech runge ceased to make sense in that world. And they tried they piped IT and tried to be like last year and they like didn't work and um they just they kind of fell off there were no longer relevant. They continue to be sort of gooey but not relevant.

And just recently, um I don't know if you could say they're relevant anymore, but they are at least interesting because they could become sort of like unhinge ed, like psychotic I would say you into a certain extent the first time I picked up on this there is a writer arias or something rather she's their space reporter. I don't even know. I mean, okay, uh SHE tweet about a new defense technology company that made IT almost impossible for soldier to miss and he was like, this is, you know, SHE framed me as a flying just tech, this topia type thing.

And I thought it's horrifying that american soldiers are not going there like less likely to die. IT was a crazy framing that you maybe give a pair like this is like just some stupid old White woman thing, you know, like you you get used to these sort of takes. You even sort of get used to them from the press.

It's weird from tech crunch because they used to be the sort of like gay technology firm or or or press on IT. But whatever the same woman now um bullying bullying had a failure in space that resulted in a huge delay for astronauts are sort of like stuck in space story is not that bad, but it's funny. And bowing sort of couched in this uh, the disasters sort of couched in this series of disasters.

You know boys are famously terrifying right now. Like, do you want to write on IT? I don't necessarily. I had an option not to um SHE went after john cook in a colleague of mine for this. Uh like like john was like sort of laughing about this and he was like, oh, that feel where you wanted like trash boeing so bad that you throw some asking ots under the bus and SHE sort of defended she's now taking up her boeing over Smith next right and now you're going defending a huge, huge like prime uh, over a start up uh as the space reporter for tech rung um by the way.

the spoils, the bigger defense contractor in the world, they make bombs and missiles. They are trying to get their target yeah .

but don't but don't come for boeing. Don't you dare come for boeing. Um then it's like there is an A I question headlights popped up IT was tech rush ring for an A I blood bath, the A I blood bath that we need um and then finally IT was this uh M I attacks so Alice, one of scale um sort of uh I don't want say famously because like everyone was just like, yes and I didn't do this like crazy news thing wasn't that controversial?

People are pretty much on board at this point but he did not see I cracked definitely yes he's like company hearing based on sex or race obviously you have this huge hit point is is huge hit piece uh comes out of technology was quieter beyond APP but I think there's another one coming actually end up inevitably talking about IT um but he was weirdly quite a except for them and IT puts them in this interesting position of sort of no longer ger being goofy, relevant but being sort of nasty and insane um which makes them more interesting. I think I actually think that there is planted the market here and I encourage them to keep going because IT gives me something to be mad about which I am going, to be honest, sometimes enjoy on occasion. H, what do you guys make of the sort of technical evolution and is a just kiss.

I mean, I think it's I almost, i'm like entertained by them and I am glad that they're doing something that's different than just the kind of um I don't know like sort of predictable stupid reporting that places like wired put out, which is just you know you know they they kind of hate they're technical pessimists, but it's also have written the same GPT generated style. I mean, they're taking at least a position.

I guess that's kind of, I don't know, controversial. And it's nice to have know as as someone is part of a media company that I think we sort of wear our bias on our sleeves in many ways in our reporting. And we're not in in no way are we doing kind of uh, impartial.

Well, sometimes we're doing what we're doing. A lot of fact is reporting, but it's not I don't think, impartial. Um it's nice to have a kind of uh caricature like enemy I guess in tech ronge.

But um I don't know how consequential their pieces are because I don't really hear many people talk about stuff they were on tech round recently you like. I don't know how many sort of clicks and views. And part of this is a .

micro change where people are really going to sites at all. They're seeing what they see online comes down to the question of where do you get your news online? And because links don't share well at all on any of the platforms, you it's basically like what influence are told you about what story there are not about or excited about um at a place and then maybe you go and find IT, but usually you're just talking about the headline.

I think what's happening there are few things to say about this. The first is that the die spoor of journalists from like vice and these other places that have closed down or shunk dramatically, they have to go somewhere. And and a lot of these folks decided to learn some python and stop in journalist, but some of them decided that they want to to say, in the career, and they've moved to places like technical.

They warned before, if you notice where where did the journalists come from is pretty critical. And what what they do just before this and if they were in tech or something like that, that could kind of make sense. But all of these fools who are just not even covering tech, like they were just like doing something else or cover women issue is or or or, you know, whatever was social issues or local issues for for.

And now they are reporting on startups and tech. Ono always thought of the place where you, anna, serious and answer, you're something like that and you give them the exclusion they do in view. They say so and so unveiled forty eight million dollar financing with so and so you know when it's just basically corp P R.

But you know, I think the idea that they want to bash the industry and is really interesting. I had to deal with this in arma where there's a algate summer called stat and status sitting. There's A A crapping on me everyday and I was like, you understand that like every drug company, your revenue is dg company at paying stat money to, you know, get their name instead.

But at the same time, you're writing about them and you kind have to be careful to shit on them. So I think that's a really weird thing when the only tech ranch ads there were going to get are, I think, people trying to recruit or sell tech software whenever is uh any any SaaS platform of something to users and readers of tech rasch that's, you know the audience they have. So for them to sort of say what I want to seen, A I blood ed bath will hold on a second, you know.

So I got a eye company. I'm not good advertise with your spoken thing if you're talking about wanting and I like that. So twenty one eight percent of of of their revenues gone there. And then defence tech soft, oh yeah, another ten percent go on. So like how many things are you going to crap on before all your advertisers say, you know, hopefully a spell my industry yet?

I think a separate problem is the tech cultural side because you said, you know, well, this what A I company he is going to want to advertise with them now. And the problem that they will keep doing IT like they actually will, they have a hide. Everyone, attack has is really high tolerance for being spit on. And I ve never understood that I, you don't need to go to these places.

I don't know how much you've been getting from them when it's like you're what is if tech catches attracting is usually hateful audience that hates A I and hates tech conceptual than like what good is IT to advertise those things that I don't know I I don't know like it's practically why they would do IT and then I don't know just i'm willing to sort of take practice ly all the time to sort of take down on an enemy. Um I don't know like I doesn't make sense on either one of those uh on other one of those points. And I wish that tech people would grow a little bit of spine here because total yes.

I do. No, I as you know, there's there's one sort of P R genius out there now out there right now in lulu luu chain is kind of the go to person for for any who are related and you know she's been sitting on teacher on, oh, they say why I would you ever go these guys and know the problem that existing world there's there's only one luu and there's fifty thousand and other P R people who advise you like, okay, you're going to pear from fifty thousand retainer and i'm going to sit you down with with the tech times reporter you and tell them story. You're story they're going to write about units going to go great and it's it's really kind of grenade because ah you know there's this uh sibiu tic relationship between the P R consultation of the reporters and eventually, you know I think the reporters want to still bring their biceps from the last job advice or wherever was feed where where they were you know saying, can you believe all trump at x and they they kind of feel confined in this environment there. There's only one thing they get, which is go head power from their institution.

Why I would see on the bias quest exception, the bias thing is interesting. And as you imagined earlier, like we would of wear bias on our sleeve. And I want to say that like our our face space reporting is backspace reporting. But our perspective that is important for how you navigate the way that we're looking at the world or something and everybody has a bias is we're actually saying there like think your time has a bias first tech art as a bias.

What's of not as when they say they don't and then report things that are incorrect because of their bias ah and I would say in this case, it's like the bias is you either use IT as a tool or I think it's like there they're having this sort worst of all world here. Um they're pretending their neutral, but they are clearly not. And that lack of mutuality is not helping them in a way that a voice elsewhere might.

And the reason that the cases because they all share the same voice, if every single other outlet other than pirate wires is like we hate tech, then and it's in the same sort of not interesting ways, just like it's bad, all business is bad, these people are bad, ee is bad. Um you know how many how many like i'm thinking of a person is not Peter because he is the easiest one. And like, but how many? Like Peter steel is a blood sucking vampire from hell stories do you need to read like the first one did IT and they can let a go like who's reading this stuff um and I think that many people because obviously the micros really that that they're all totally feeling now they need subscription revenue. They can do that because nobody pays for things unless they really love them. And IT turns out nobody ever certain ly not enough people really love this type of content.

It's just it's like the information uh, a place that don't exactly love, but they're actually one of the few places where people actually pay for the news because they are kind of journal. For tech, they get actual scopes right that like do actually pts. I think and .

this is either feeling this stories is going to become bigger over the next six weeks, the information specifically, I think there is something in this over there shall be be to say, and I don't have too much to talk about there. But like, I am not here to ground a couple of stories that have been some of the worst things i've heard over the last couple of years in media. I, I, I have to wait for these stories to actually come out, but um it's it's been people dealing with them and um yeah so I know I just I think really .

quickly block works is the sort of like media thing for cropt and they literally put out an natural that said, um you you're not supposed to both for trump because you're bad dude and and and the heck ally, no matter what his crypt al policies are and everyone is sitting there. Do you understand how many of us are going to jail because and how because of being prosecuted, sued by the R. C, C, they want all our money and you're sitting here in littoral like it's not so bad, don't give up your principles, vote and and go to jail and stand with and the guys like literally trying to destroy this industry and the tone deafness of the reporters who are just coming from a different background.

I think yeah for a long time nobody else vote about this stuff. And so you were sort of at the mercy of of that is still a problem. There are many Young writers. There are there's not a lot of money in media um the pickings are slim. But the good news is like if you are not a sociopaths or of a dumb person who is going to attack the people that are covering for no good reason, then you kind of have a little bit image in this space actually right .

to say something yeah I think that ultimately is the the sort of cultural shift is gona have to come from, uh, you know, this transition to submit tion based revenue. And and as we're saying, like people, I think that's going to have call the ranks of these bloated media companies. I mean, vice falling is a harbin gir of that.

But I think that there's a lot of these kind of legacy companies that basically you know had a big sort of surface during the the rich ad years um and now are sort of slowly um being called. And I ouldn't be surprised if if like several more of these kind of tech publications whose articles now basically just go viral for their like stupid headlines that people dunk on on twitter, things like that and occasionally do have good reporter I mean to tech crunches credit, they do have some good reporters over there. And like I, I sometimes read some of their pieces and get information from them. But for the most part, my interaction with them as someone who's who's writing about someone to go and covering sort of broadly tech related things in public policies is pretty minimal, which I think says um something I guess this is a lot right .

yeah you that alone just in fact that they are not really in the discourse anymore is the kiss of death for them. They're not doing subscriptions.

So all they can do is attention and if you're not clicking like what you are, they okay we are going to take uh a break from this conversation to uh loop in an interview that I did uh moment ago with uh dalen and a keen of nucleus about some embryo selection genetics more broadly and um how to create a moon people race which will be prety interesting when we come back from that little convo, we're hitting A L C. bowman. And uh should there be asylum for foreign sociology graduates? Maybe according to dollar trap reback.

All right. So we are going to switch IT up a little bit. I want to introduce two guests to the pod. We've got uh, key on sea gi of nucleus, sound of nucleus and the one the only delay of founder spd.

I was just saying before, I like I really think done and I don't I don't I don't hear your last name a lot. I know that I can spell IT golden. I can pronounce IT. I'd i'll never ever use IT. It's like you're like a maDonna founders fun um but it's it's dalian um so do I want to talk k and I want to start with you and then we're going to the funding history here and then the controversy, I don't say you your company's controversial there is there are controversies for us to talk about ah just tell me about tell me about nucleus.

sure. Yeah, thanks so much of me. Sana, well, the first thing is everyone has da d is the language of life, right? IT shapes everything about us from our disease risk, well, toward trade dispositions as we will get into.

There are two fundamental changes in genomics, and last twenty years or so, that has basically allowed for the creation of nucleus. The first is in the reading of DNA, the sadness in the analysis of DNA, and will talk about some others, but those the ones that most immediate effect, nuclear st. Regarding the reading of DNA, you to actually sequence the entire human genome, all six billion dina letters IT used to cost around ten million dars percent in two thousand and six today.

Nuclear as can do that for around three ninety nine. So the first thing to knows that old DNA test, look at small snip. Its of someone s da may be a single gene, twenty thousand, maybe just a couple of markers, right? Nuclear success, all one hundred percent of your DNA.

So as the first shift, the second shift is our ability to actually analyze this DNA and analysis layer has become much more sophistic last twenty years as well. So now we can read all the D. N. A. And now we also know that diseases entries or something called polygamic in nature, when we take polygamic with that really means is they're not driven by a single variant in a gene, but instead the result of many DNA differences throughout the entire genome. So by employee, basically these new polygonal models combined classical genetic analysis, which looks for the presence or absence of DNA differences on a whole genome, you can basic provide people the most comprehensive assessment ever of the gene risk disease as well as a disposition for trades that's a dedicated ous does.

And so but this is like when we talk about embro selection, this is like you're applying a sort of like apologetic risk score embryos.

So we don't we don't do. We don't do I V F. We don't do anything on embryos.

We do everything in adult humans. There is obviously interface with that, right? Like we can do preconception screening, so we can do basically at scale. You can sequence all, obviously, you know, your children's DNA comes from the parents, right?

So you can actually you simulate offspring from two parents DNA, as well as you can do things like, you know see their Carriers so you can do mass. So you can think of is like bugged in preconception screening, which is what nuclear does do. That's actually very soon. Plug them in with an ivf clinic so that is actually integrated want got IT.

So I have misunderstood based on when we were going back and four of the emails before um I so gave me like the ten thousand foot down view, how are people using this?

So how do you .

want use this?

So to get question, so today there's genomics is pretty frag, granted, right? So maybe there's like cancer test, neurology test, heart test, preconception screening, farm eoconomy s right? Like for some reason, well, not for some reason for technological reasons, is historically genetic has been so fragmented.

So you have different test for different applications. There is actually around seventy thousand jenee tests on the market today, which is pretty the same thing about IT because we basic combine all those seven thousand tests into one. So nuclear is billion, the kind of all in one whole genome platform.

What that means is we can do on just one test for a three ninety night. We can do all heart disease later analysis. We can do all neurology screen analysis. You can do pee conception screening, right? Which is based, I described, to see if both parents are Carriers for a condition.

And if they aren't Carriers, they should probably go to ivf clinic, as I know we can talk about later to make sure they don't pass on a very serious, delicate management disease to their offspring. Farmer congeners ics, how someone genomically shapes their drug response. People think of genetic testing today, especially consider genetic testing as strank. Ly, does my peace spell like a Spark or something right? Nucleus, the complete opposite of that.

I mean, I also wanted know my peace calls like a spirits. I like IT all. I'm in favor of the entire column string days.

We can get in to each of those later uh or in a bit, darling, what was IT about um what was about this company that you like? What brought guys together? And I would love to know like what about the space to you? Are are you really interested right now? And then why is um is nucleus the one for you?

Yeah I think even before short of meeting uh you key on i'd had a uh interesting in genomics partially from a sort of sort of A A broader er of society you know interest that I think it's a understanding the area but then also very specifically, as I started out of play in my family and going through you do a genomic sequences, a screening, uh you ultimately edition have came to the conclusion that there are more things that we wanted to basically you do have a screen out of our you do sort of children uhh in our uh embryo s and so while um you should the nucleus is uh today not either focused on each embryos and have focused on a sort of whole genome sequencing sort of adults.

Um part of the limitations today in screening on embryos is that you have more limited you know sort of data sets on you sort of how you hold genome relates to file typic expression in human adults right you keon you to mention that historical a lot of the genomic analysis was done in a sort of single gene, you know sort of you uh, light polygamic out of a you gene, you know sort risk scoring, uh, but know most of those data ATS weren't based off of whole genome asa. And so so for very strong you know sort of uh single gene expressions you think like uh no probably far the most popular sort of amErica h which is a breast cancer, a short gene or a sort of single gene that's very well characterize more understood but there maybe other things that you want to screen out of your embrees where you you know the phenotype you're trying to screen from the adult but you don't really know yet what the you know the. That affect that are and really the only way to build that up is to have sort of mass scale data sets of human fino types with their whole genome seats. And that just like doesn't exist today again, because IT is comically that's not how to you today. And so the only way to .

really impossible is too expensive is way too expensive.

Yeah wait to expensive. The even today where cheap, it's just it's not um clinically relevant to like convince twenty four year old to do whole genome sequencing um and then you have to also record a butros typic data um that's not clinically you know what of IT put .

IT you like like so insurance would pay .

for that but IT is yeah that is extremely consequence to building up the embryo tremeau. But probably the only way that together that data is a direct consumer you know sort of application um that has the healthy twenty four year old doing you know sort of hold you know sequencing.

And so um yeah i'd you sort of proving this ideas based for a little while and then you know you make on, you know, I want to say, like two years ago now, and I think, yeah, I think the two things were, you know, sort of one, this is an idea that I arthly previous out about, I think give little in the MIT to the pitch. I was her pitching him back basically. Um and then the second was idio having also been a little one thousand year old drop out founder. Those are pursuing slightly less radical idea but in the world of health care, yes, definitely you felt like I go through a little bit of a seventy of you when talking to key on in his journey, which doesn't typically happen to me, even with super Young founders. So I think is that you one, two punch kind of made you feel I can no brain, or even fifteen minutes in the .

car I want to get you were just mentioning something more moment ago. Dalian, it's a personal topics. You can say we're not doing IT if you don't want to. But did you and nadia, you went through the process of um testing beforehand before you guys had a kid?

Um i'll provide some light level of detail and you hopefully my wife doesn't you hate me for the level of detail that I provide but uh we conceived our first child you know that of naturally uh which um maybe you are more per of the moment than anything but even before conceiving him, we'd actually previously gone through um you know sort of uh multitude cycles to sort of create embrace and then also uh use um apology ic you know of risk oring uh scarf p uh a code of prediction um to uh do uh the um uh some of that they are screening on our embrace a what's available today is you not what will be available use for a decade from today, obviously and hopefully you know companies like key's massively improved the data that eboni uster screening gets even more sophisticated ah but there were a set of these sort of single gene markers that are are able to be screen with today's technology that we wanted to be sleep.

You just have to screen out obvious. Ly, we have you have gamboled uh, with our first kid and just you IT didn't naturally so you know we care a decent amount about screaming out. Not so much.

So don't i've see there's other things like counting in the tea where we ouldn't have you should a gambled on that uh so we don't have anything that like you should that severe um but yeah we we we did go through that and so I have very little out of um say clinically levent patient experience where ah I had to go through and actually to convince my I V F clinic to do this type of political scoring in this kind of you know screaming and had to connect them actually with the um uh the startup that was doing that type of sequencing. So I was we were the first patient ever and is one of the top four I V F clinics the entire united states. I was the first person that ever pushed on you previously had a much more uh, limited, uh, you know, have a analysis partner .

and I think dealing is good pointsman in there, which is that there is still like a lot of resistance for polygon scores, right? Even in the all populations is what we do, right? If you look at there is a you know an article version about us and basic the head.

the cdc. I first it's unarm magazine .

which is an mt publication they're very thought ful they're very regress but they also very wrong um which is that they wrote they see a long long essay about you know me our chief scientist of or nucleus um discussing kind of political scores and one coin there was from the process genomics division of this dc IT sounds like we were interesting in department name um and they had the city at the head of this department said you know there is no poligny scores said that of any clinical utility that is like actually not true I mean best cancer typed diabetes, AMD, schizophrenia, a alzheimer and I can go on right you have models that can predict equivalent to classical genre analysis terms, the predictive strength using just common deniability ance. So IT is simply not true.

And I think there is a theme throughout the genomic stack, right? But and I think the thing is that like if I first gLance, I M I seem like oh like adult populations very different than embryo, but actually it's all gonna very much integrated. When I talk with this all in one D N A, as you gonna see that, everything going to be integrated and to and genomics。 And to that point, I think, you know, if you came and give a political and score to adults today, right positions are initially trained in IT.

There's obviously resistance for kind of the public health of state and you know different academics, economic concern, people's understanding, probabilities, all these and is also a culture of kind of pretty nal ism in health care as well. All these factors today that mean today that twenty four, that twenty five years, that twenty six year old can't actually get what what could actually be the most consequential piece of health information they could ever get an entire lives. Because if you're actually going to prevent these conditions, you need to start early. You need start Young. So one, my favorite.

Yeah, go head ahead. I just I wonder how much resistence there really is. People are super IT seems like enthusiastic about this when he comes to like point three am and stuff. I think that if you were to saying, hey, we're onna tell you if you have telling you mention the bra one like IT seems like people do want that so I guess I came out I was going to ask a moment ago, you know, do you think it's just this weird social push back that you're receiving? I don't doesn't feel right actually go at this is just a part .

of the motivation in the investment in that I think the thing that I hate about the current ecosystem x nucleus is that they give um and logical tools to consumers like twenty three and me and everything enthusiastic about IT but they purpose sly hide stuff from them.

They don't trust consumers with the full and political capabilities that are available in nature papers so if you're like a PHD scientist, your ability to like read into, hey um do I have a polio gen ic risk on potentially high cluster a something as simple as that. There are datasets that you can go and look at that are like scientifically published and companies like twenty three and me and others don't released to consumers because like oh well, consumers aren't ophite ticad like h PHD. Or I think it's ethically wrong to like releases types of dat this type data.

And so I don't like the fact that like you know George church you know at harvard has actually to a certain set of analysis that he has to do. But you know, john Smith on main street is considered, you know, too dumb, deplorable. It's out around so we can possibly let him know the health information, know because he's not sophistic ted enough to interpret IT. And there was a lot of a sort of frustration .

with this field. I remember um what I first got my DNA test. You exactly right that was like super super limited. And um you could actually take your debt to these like third parties and do this like jackie version of IT and fight out all this other crazy shit.

But I remember just really wanted to know, um you know based on available data, what were my odds of I don't know, a bunch of shit. I I would have like something I I like the genetic stuff, the anti stuff is a cool. But IT was cool to how much they fell.

enemy. I felt like super accomplished. I'm of the ninety like five percent five or something.

Thanks a lot.

I know the funny about that. There is like going in. Um i've just a little like, obviously anyone who was like a lot of all DNA fucking idiot, you know you definitely want like a little of that as possible. At the moment that I got my results, I started thinking like they have those huge heads like the I think I think it's like those are the ascended people for shower IT was like immediate one eighty and I didn't actually I wasn't conscious like I caught myself doing IT um but yeah very interface and our medical very pro the and fall in general open to the inter fall conspiracy series um OK .

so do you think it's like.

I mean, people a lot of that being held back probably just because of liability purposes, right? Like they don't want to take on the risk of telling someone, you know, oh, you have x percentage chance of this and then they get IT anyway and they're like, this is, you know the DNA no, you think it's something else?

I don't telling our both turning our heads and exactly the same things like we're did together. I think it's like people okay, I want to explain this is basis. However, this twenty to me, everyone train to me, try to me.

It's cala snapp chips. So IT looks at less than point one percent. Your DNA so inherent, its fundamental, limited. And what you can tell people what that means is like the analysis that gives you any nosis that gives you is even if they like, oh, you're negative, you don't have something. It's extremely comprehensive this time with breast cancer deletion tion brack.

Alright, twenty to me, for the longest time they looked at three black ovarian when there's actually more than a thousand than or no, for example. And not not just in B R C one, B R C two, that other genes as well. If you look at these across these genes as thousands.

Of breast cancer sociate dena variance, twenty things will look at three of them, right, which is obvious, terrible, and now applyed out to every disease they play analysis for. And the fact they don't provide political scores, historically, they didn't at all, not only to provide a couple is actually still worth the nucleus is together. So we do this kind of old school analysis across every single human genome.

So in other words, look like a clinical genetics to say from like marriage genetics. There's just weird dicon ling where people like take twenty three and me like like that like the only the test in the world, then they go to a hospital and get like a breast cancer test and alzheimer test, a parkins's test and somehow that treated like so seriously. But in point me isn't right.

Imagine you took the kind of clinical consequence of one of these ma test right for given disease, and then did that whole genome. So across the highest es. And still looking in the single, you look at twenty thousand genes, and then you also get the non gender regions.

So you can also run polygon and scores. So what i'm trying city is that like train to me like it's like a horse. It's it's like it's like really like, oh, horse was autonomous vehicle.

It's it's like what we need to talk about here. It's like twenty years nothing changed. And i'm just like, what like why we time of microwave make any sense? This is the garbage test. No one in medicine and take a serious ly. You know, scientists would take a serious ly.

Then once you go from there, there is the ideological issue, which is the second issue, the officer was the technology issue, that's the ideological issue, which touch, which is like, why would twenty three were not provide analysis on something like intelligence? For example? Why would they not provide analysis and something like sofa or other new psych? We have just talk about .

my sense about all of this is that that is like the main thing that's holding us back is just like the sense that the there are genes associated with intelligence um among the third general population and it's like this feeling of like we don't it's just Better if we don't know. It's just like socially Better not to know if people don't want to fully know and I do think that was holding people like this twenty three and me thing back. I think there's also a religious peace um so let's talk about I can .

will be able .

to describe describe Better than I can but like um it's not due to liability reasons like as long you're not making a sort of clinical assessment and just providing the data but not saying a prescription of you should or you should not go to these X, Y, Z clinical things, you are not you know a sort of clinical live obvious. You and you maybe can describe the like you are .

of new ones there, but you can actually be pretty open and describing or do they make two points we have tell people what to do once they receive the information, they should go to an account and they should go to physician for that information. Secondarily is that we're not diagnose anyone, even a black of very instant diagnosis. So that's something that's very important.

Remember when we applied this stuff to I mean, obviously there there are two of two speed on this. One is knowing yourself.

And I think that sort of closely related to like a prediction on what me in my partner, we have a kid, what what are the probabilities there that we're looking at going into this? Then there's something more bite that's already controversial for for many people um but I think that once much less controversial IT is certainly much, much less controversial than the next one which is uh two prom one just the sort of increasingly there's the concept of I B F seems to becoming controversial certainly you believe the baptist anti ibf now that's that's the tone for the religious right in amErica IT becomes politically important the republicans keep trying to say, no, no we're not entire ibf um because they're terrified of fucking up. The next selection um I have is super.

It's popular on both sides of the I le you right many people have kids that way and um you sort of wants you have a kid that way. You're are you fucking kidding me like it's not controverted that my child exists um but you have uh rep rose and dail came out um just this week uh with IT wouldn't like a bill to stop IT or something that was a good of funding suggestion but it's like the first antibiotic thing part of that is just religious ly motivated in general and ibf but then when he comes to selection now we're talking about the question of like what kinds of kids were going to allow to exist is the framing I think that would be like the negative framing that that people are coming out this from. Um there is a lot of anxiety there.

There are certain things that are seem to be acceptable washing for diseases. There are certain red lines that are absolutely not an intelligence is certainly one of them. I would look at how you guys are thinking about this sort of controversy generally, and it's much perspective as you're willing to share on IT. I feel like dalling, you're going to be little more well let to see you know what you guys just tell me what .

you think I know. I think you just be, you know, powered to the people. Basically, it's just I have X, Y, Z number of embryos that I create. Give me all of the scientific tools that are available to A P, H, D in a lab and let me make my decision.

Basic y on what I want to be sure of births is night um yeah I think in some ways um you know this is like you know a parallel to uh you know a part that you're given once the child is born right like um I would like to choose um you know um what medical treatments I gave my child and i'm going to choose to give him the polio vaccine because I don't want him to have a miserable life having polio um if I want to you sort of screen out you know hunting, disease or other things that I think we will make IT like this role beforehand that should also be to in the power of like the parents. And so I tend to take, I think, of a very sort of liberty and viewpoint here we're like I may choose for a certain SATA traits. Shako neo may like fully optimize for height and that you entirely in his projective and he once like like massive and B A bb and other people may optimize other things.

And it's not to say that like there should be some sort of like government social wide here, the types of babies that the exit is not, I think everybody should. You should decide what kind of babies they want to have. And people are kind of already making that implicit decision by music ais partner they have. And so people are already doing genetic screening of their kids by choosing a partner, which the difference between that and basically, just like once you're with the partner doing even further, more specific, basically screening .

yeah this is sort of the G M. O debate is like, well, all our foods genetically modified where picking up th Epace a lso w e've a.

ll b een g enetically m odified. You we're not like the plant to post that. You came out of the water for the first time. We got modified a bunch of times through evolution. You, I think where in this unique point, you know of a human history where you to talk about you sort of an enter thought, but you know, there is a whole set, you know, some species within homo, right there is homer reactivation. I will see us homosapien um you know know ort of A A multitude, those we happen to be in this rare moment.

We're like the homosapien s you know, sort of species happen to be the one with so slightly more brutal, slightly smarter, actually slightly smaller than some of the other ones and so that ended up you are dominating murder, dollar or other a species um and I said, I think we're this like really rare sort of ten to twenty thousand year period where all humans will happen to be the same species um and then in the future, through evolutionary pressures, if there is no sort of a species of humans lives on the moon, there's going to for sure be selected pressure on the moon. It's a totally different environment. There might be things that you know in, like lower gravity, you know, naturally, things that like, you know, certain genes do Better versus not.

And so over the course of you, and like a thousand years of the slide, pressure of the moon, almost certainly humans will special. But then also, these, like artificial pressures are to see a massively out to speed of that up. And so I think we're in this be very interesting to a societal moment when you are trying to maintain basically like democratic republic eto sort of civil society. And we're having such a hard time doing that today. We are all the same species, let alone like, you know, a thousand years, three from today when there is no a homo Martin hoo lunar .

and whatever hoo Q A new is crazy. This is a crazy to defend the technology though. It's like we're talking about asian and like it's like we're creating like lord the rings universe, right? We're going to like elves and and .

you point years go on point years that sounds pretty sick, like make yourself with rever and point years going to make a bunch of like nine foot normous sort of you to humans that are going .

to just dominate at basketball.

And I think what thing which is that like, I think dye makes some excEllent points there. And and I think just like today, if you look at the night, states this around, you know a twenty thirty million people that have an inherit more genetic disease, twenty thirty million, if you actually do population level, hold in sequences rights.

If you do preconception scheme with nuclear saying, then put that into I V F clinic, you could basically eradicate all diseases from the population of a couple of generations. So that's a very practical, tangible, real thing that affects everyone. I mean, obviously you should be up to the liberty of the parents, but I don't think most parents want their kid to be enforceable. Born with a very serious disease, I think, with my cousin who sudenly died sleep but you know it's fourteen and I think about like you know if most placation can can stop that from happening, that seems like the single kind of most obvious prevented measures that obviously everyone you say you just swap their je can do right um so I think like dalian ryan, the kind of like the super size I vision of this, but also is a very real tangible with the technology we have today, a fact for of companies like nuclear genomics.

I do have one last question here and then we got to move on, unfortunately, except tone of them. But what I am going to ask is we're talking about here. We are talking about, obviously, it's like the health stuff. Ground floor I give IT ah I want.

but I been done yet. That's what's insane to me right now. But right now, like literally right now, a there are millions of people in the united states that have A A pathogenic variant right for breast cancer, collate cancer, high clash role.

And you know seventy three thousand people die a year from these conditions like these, the number one killers and created the ninety percent of you don't nearly have a pathogenic garage. So like we're time out of millions of lives are at stake over a swap. That's three ninety.

I mean, how much is like? It's it's like I totally think we like we should talk to kind of have the the next like today. I'm astonished that all these people are trying to to quantify health.

It's they take like twenty item and sea supplements. They don't have their genome. But he doesn't make sense. So I think you integrate.

we fully know about some of these. Somebody are really easy, right? Like cystic fibrosis is one gene and it's like a knock out. You could potentially like knock IT out, uh, early on catching or something.

It's a margin disease, yes.

So within summer, more complicated. You've like mutio genes or are working in tana and you know you sort of a knock one out or two out and who knows what else you're doing? Intelligence seems to be this way where it's like there are clusters of things and we're not hired. Sure how that works.

Um I guess just the last easy .

but should be an easy question is just like how do you think about second order effects? Nervous about what you don't know.

So I think about this in a lot of respects. So as you mentioned, a lot of these diseases and traits are polygenic nature, right agan just the audience understand polygon is the first, the fact that it's not my single gene but the complex interaction of many DNA differences or variants in some the genome, which is means older DNA um so what is that happiness? You can actually make predictions from these different variants without nice to understand the underline cause of mechanism, which has interesting implications for genome editing.

I think about the art institutes publication yesterday about the kind of evolution of crisp r in your Patrick shoes. Also invested nucleus is work there, but that we can put that to aside for saying, go back to your question, which is that what you find is that like what scientific they do is they measure how much the variation in a specific trade like intelligence could be maximum attributed to genetics, right? So across every diseases, every trade, they map a number intuitive ly, height, height, basic.

Scientists asked me that eighty percent of high can be genetics, right? So I ideal, if you build a kind of perfect genetic model, there would still be twenty percent on account intelligence is asked around fifty percent, right? So if you build the perfect next model, you get to fifty percent, the environment kicks in.

Um so that's one thing to consider, which is that even if you build perfect next models, there would still be obviously, there's still some great freewill and environmental facebook without say. Moreover, I would think the thing to considers that there to your point of kind of unknown unknown is that you certain genEvans are associated more than one thing. Should I take intelligence for example in implicity, as you optimize for um you know someone's intelligence, you also optimizing for autism by these things are associated at the international level, right? They don't just have a single effect on on specific you know a trade.

So that's another implication which is if parents all go and say all I want my kid to be super in intelligent, they should have the right in the sovereignty to potentially do that. Um obviously abstracts sounds and you know we should be conscious and clever in that there are there are on unexpected consequences. You could also be optimized to be super autistic and that's that the parent has kind of understanding calibrate and that we have to be, I think, cautious as we in police technology, which is there's always this baLance in nature. Nature is never just .

just .

like a one side solution here. Make sense.

Yes, i'm going to give you the a last word delay and we're going we're going to go this one thought, I mean, what any sort of what does IT take away that that you think just on the subject the subject level like people need to cana, keep in mind.

I think for me is just an excitement around um you know this type of accessibility on whole genome sequencing to be the Price point was literally only accessible became possible in like the past like twelve months. And so I think by like takeo would be that I hope people recognize that this is now I like sort of tool in your tool set and it's a tool that is relevant even if you're like Young and healthy because IT IT allows you to then just a focusing on the areas like if you're twenty two years old, do like a man.

And do I really bother going for like a liver screen or a stomach screen or X Y C E organ versus, if you know, have a whole year that tells you, hey, you actually highly, highly likely have like liver failure. Go take that children of council. And now you can be like OK, I can focus most of my like, you do that energy, what i'm doing, my angle screening.

I just like monorail ed, like my liver, the health and receiving longevity. And so you know the way that I described as like you for the first time, we have a bit of like a like google maps of your body and people should just download that map. I know what IT is, so they're informed over the course of there.

You don't sort of life and there's all these are doing mother implications that I like super about. But I think the most important thing that I take ways, if like here and not to member this, listen this. And you haven't ever done a whole genome equant. There's various providers. I obviously fully pretty ppos to recommend, you know, so nuclear, but either way, you should find like the map of your body basically.

And if you want to have kids, if you want have kids is an obvious thing. If if you want to have kids, you should know your career for today.

And if you want, you should also ask the person you I mean, that's the thing about, obviously you should do if you serious about about you, I question, I don't think about the question eventually you an integration people can obviously, after choosing if would like to basic b opted out of being mashed, someone who has also care of for a condition. I think that that in the individual sovereign, the of the customer. So these are all things. I think if if you wanna be you know um healthy, live long and have healthy kids that I think it's .

is a must that you are so much um for joining. This was awesome. I had a million more questions I might have to bring about back on to talk about them, especially the moon.

People know events. I know the health stuff. Yes, and your company amazing.

But I I have a lot of questions about the moon people. Seventy years later, it's been real. They, so we had a kind of fun political couple of days. Uh, we had L, C, jumping around on stage to wasn't IT enough by party.

B, U, R, B.

painting on, see, not much of a crowd there. She's getting chased by a mob of pro palestine, an people. I think maybe that's a little bit of a exaggeration. Santa, break down on the second.

And all of this is sort of like a passage ever to say bowman, who is the craze squad member who pulled the fire alarm in the middle of a vote in congress, and then that somehow was at a crime. And nobody care. We just have let IT go.

But I guess someone cares. Red, his constitutions cared. Uh, he just lost his election. There seems to be some ort of interesting leftist of our leftist thing happening. So gena, can you break IT down for us?

Well I mean more women lost his his primary uh in new york sixteen district um and IT was kind of a well wasn't really landslide but IT was a pretty dramatic loss for bowen. He lost to George latimers who I believe formally represented that district in the new york's state senate. And you know, the squad sort of adjacent left is chalking this up to APEC contributions because a pected poor tens of millions of dollars into this race. I think IT was like one of the costliest primaries of all time but really like James bowen from what i've been reading uh is sort of seen among people who live in this district, which is basically west chester uh canyon and part of the bronx is kind of out of touch um and you know this sort of the the symbol of this out of touches was that he held this rally, which apparently wasn't even in the district. There's there's a map that shows some of the where is rally is and where his district is and it's pretty far out um and it's like this expletive filled rally where he says, you know the south bronx is going to show mother fucked in APEC who's boss not the shit and you know the south bronx is like a tiny he's got like a tiny bit of the bronx in his district and it's not even the southern portions so it's this kind of you know insane thing from you've sad but L C did show up and SHE you know marches on stage and sort of does little dance to carb is like fifty people in the crowd kind that he .

took her I notice she's this right like i'm going to get enough five right now. He d let her her down. Like when you ever see a girl is about to get in a fight, her hair goes up.

It's like it's a pony tale. It's tight. He is about to kill someone. Lc, impulse that fight to like, look.

hair yeah no IT IT was all very performative. You couldn't really understand what she's saying because she's ort of screaming at the crowd like we're going to fight and the crowd seems a little bit confused actually.

I means like these like stogie middle aged democratic Operative who are like listening to this really vogue cardy b song and and you know meanwhile there is this concurrent protest being held by um within our lifetime which is this very um sort of radical propane estan group um that's chanting you know A O C your hands are dead A O C your hands are red. Forty thousand dead or something like that um and you know apparently SHE SHE was mobile at her bus which they graduated afterward but he did win her primary that should be said by. A very sizable margin. I mean, there was very little money in that way uh from what i've read because IT was kind of A A forgone conclusion that he would win. But bomb's loss I think um is pretty remarkable because he was a rising star for a while and then you know the fire alarm antics happened and he did get away with I mean, he was censored, I think by congress but not really he didn't really receive a pond and I think that must be brought of I don't know.

It's true. I was told as a kid they were like, if you pull the fire alarm in a school, you're going on to prison like that. I was member in a second, we will take you to jail.

We have like will know IT is there's like just special dust on there. We will get your fingerprint slike that's IT you're locked up for life. I was by living fear of the fire alarm in fear. So I was not like, well, what if I think it's a fire? Then I pull IT and .

then I go to jail and I was wrong. Yeah.

I told me, people are pulling a fire alarm. Ers, it's almost like to me, it's like that thing where people say, you know, you could technically bite your finger off, but you've got this you know, mechanism in your brain that would stop you from, uh, you know, exerting the force necessarily to buy IT off. I feel like for most people, pulling a fire alarm, if there is no fire, is like butting your finger off, it's just your brain wouldn't wouldn't allow you to do IT but bone missing that there.

He was just cash really in the pictures of are really crazy like he just he's like, do you like, no big deal and in lies about IT is like we could see you what is going on and that is sort of that's such a good sort of metaphor for reality right now is like we can see that what our old eyes and they're saying, no, you're wrong. That ever happened. What's you're take on the, I mean, this or maybe started, do you have take before I say what would like marti's opinion this just like what is going on right now in general .

to think I guess I would say a high level. I mean thermal bowman, I think is like he was an exceptionally bad candidate. Um I mean, there's there's I don't know people are sort of saying this might be the death of the squads and you know I did think I was really funny.

The L C. Gets mob by these palestine people and she's probably the most, you know radically pro palestine, one of most radically some people in congress. And so I do think this could kind of like irony of the left, the far left of hering. It's children like satan devouring his son uh, is is sort of power and weird and funny. But I don't know honestly how much we can extrapolate from the woman stuff because I just think he was like so widely disliked in this district where he was seen as like really out of touch um yeah I I think there's .

some homeostatic, right so like if if an organism is sensing that is killing itself for starving itself, it's going to module itself to get to a place where I can succeed and if that means a demotic party actually seen a bunch of republicans, actually the mom as no on attended, uh, saying that they don't want this to happen because the republicans are gonna less competitive. If if you you I guess, running against a budget crazy, you can kind of just not be crazy and win and yeah sort of like, okay, if they're not going to have the aoc, the ball, the leaves, it's eta and we're going to have to run against like these very sober candidates that you could be inspiring in other ways, more competitive. And I think you're going to see both parties sort of like try to like reach the city library on where they can be maximum ally competitive.

Yeah, I agree with that. I saw someone tweet something once I saw someone tweet something along the lines of the democrats are getting very good at removing their crazy and um they they we're talking about cord bush specifically who is the next one that seemed like he was having a hard time in her primary um this is the faith healer, one of the of the of the school.

She's one who believes that he cared someones I think like cancer is wealth or something IT was her um which I didn't dear bit her honesty I was like and I also thought because people are making fun a bit obviously I mind how because you know I thought like one I hope I would subscribes to the filters later. I want to know more about what we are so you think you can do and number two, I think there are probably a lot of people who that resided with because he wasn't embarrassed about that. He was not joking about SHE was just like I played to jesus and this happened and the people underestimate how Christian many people are in the country.

Um uh I know where the labor is like one of the more enduring things that she's ever said in my opinion uh but how you a hard time and I grow with you, Martin, this for the obligations is easy. No, you don't have to even talk about what you saying if you can just point to um recited to lib who IT might I mean recited to leave is like I think most of I think we d like full on would like us to be destroyed. I just genuinely feel that way, whether I think that like economics come this up knoxes.

She's people are like she's I don't think she's I don't think he is muslims. I think that she's I think she's like I really don't. I think that she's like a walke like like kind of ology sort of america.

I know she's you know from smaller whatever would like. I know that I think that she's super american. I feel that energy for marriage like a well american and and she's pretty good on free speech stuff.

SHE has defended previously like i'm during the january six thing I never heard expressing some scape ism of what was going on. I thought that was adverb and um a typical and while I disagree the enormous everything I do respect someone who has values that they're committed to that are also you instead bly pro america, right? Like we have a lot of people in tech who that hard core free speech message resonates with yeah like these are the Edwards snow den camp. But if SHE is not that and it's very easy to just put her up and be like, look with this person said about amErica that this guy and if you lose that um what is going to be a harder race but that I also not going to in these like really, really left wing is like A O C can't lose .

right but super quickly. You know, when George santos was a congress, I thought I take A C and just like till you know was a partial like considered the full two years, just a partial like six, nine you thought you take me is what is the story there? Well I actually lived into IT because I I know santos a little bit.

I wanna close friends anything and I was like, you know what pocket let me let me be the congressmen for and I actually live in the district. I act because of my um uh probation, whatever I have to live here and I can't live in manhattan, so I live in the district. I know the guy is like, look at all this is easy, everyone know hands and all this no problem as opposed these other two guys that yeah I really ever heard of.

And IT turns out that they've needed almost impossible to n for company in IT, especially in new york. So if they change, the rules are recovered. Where if you you can only go on the ballot of your republican moc rats um the dependent the hops .

you have .

to go through as an independent are are so told and it's it's impossible and um IT was really really I opening because I actually went through the paper were replace OK I will spend a little money on this, lets see what happens and they said you need like fifty thousand signatures hand sign notarized we have got marine .

we can get you fifty thousand and signature get IT like a great into IT .

this tiny like time frame and like they have to be notarized or signed bio witness and IT has to be registered voter and it's like jesus Christ like this the person that actually gets to go and like ten thousand people voted to decide who who's going to place at us and you know, there was more work into just getting you on the ballot than actually running the election. So IT would be great if we could actually use technology. Uh, instead like why can't we, ducky in this? Now i'm sitting there like I really onna fake all these addresses .

and why is necessary at all? Like I .

think .

IT just should be easier to run and maybe also, I mean, I I want to because you have gone as a republican a little bit, is time framework. You have to have you had to have been a republican for exam of years.

probably before fools that you have to check off is just like specifically made so that only political insiders could do this. If if you are guy, that's just somebody off the street, there's no way do IT. If your a rich guy or deal, you could theoretically, if you hire the right people and plan the side years in advance, you could do IT. But IT really has to get easier because there's there's a lot of people that we'd love to see in congress that just don't have that will till I go through every stupid checkmark um for months and months and months um before you can even be you know on the ballot.

I've been thinking about this in a broader sense, just the rules of society and what they um like at the number of rules in society and what the outcome sort of nature are. And I think there's a business version of this is well like a small business version of this. So to start like a food truck in sanford, sco or something is so difficult to do like they .

are you're really killing all .

of these potential opportunities. And um and you're also kind of biasing the entire system in favor of a certain kind of person who has a lot of time on their hand and a lot of patients for bureacracy. And so like IT.

And so in politics, if you're weighing towards bureaucrats, just that's the first hurdle is like do you have the tolerance for this level of bureaucracy? And if you do come on in and create more of IT, that's overtime very crippling um of of just sort of new businesses of the kinds of new ideas you might get in congress. And I don't IT doesn't see like we have a precedent for like a bureaucracy at scale.

Um democracy is preview. And I just of his historically americans been around for a long time. And I keep wondering, you know, is there point where you you get to this point where you have so many rules that nothing is possible? You actually do just need like a reset of some kind and um IT feels to me like we're very close to that and I don't know what tips IT over where we're like. Okay, we got to get rid of you ninety percent of the rules that we have right now for everything, not just getting into office but starting a company. Um even just like what you can do in your dito date life right I don't know what what do you I think about that crazy idea that exploded?

I love what you said about like the people who can tolerate bureaucracy end up being selected for, and the people who tolerate success get selected for business. They don't want to be anywhere near, you know, bunch of forms. And you know, the docker sine example is a really good example.

You guys have invested how many companies, but how many deals do you now see on docs, in verses, sign by paper, pen, know there are almost, I mean, sam bank men filed for bankrupt of F T. Ax on dockyard. You know, like IT is the standard, you know, kind of thing to do now.

But for me, to me, I think would be like overwhelming candidate um because just the name recognition alone, even if seventy percent of people hate me, thirty percent I love me will go to the polls, you know everybody else, mongo, the poles and you'd win a one side. That's how trump happens and then you actually hear the message you like actually going to like this guy and and you go from seventy, thirty to fifty, fifty and and as as long as you guys are energized, you can win. So I think that you know the only reason I to do to sort a troll and say that i'm not going to quit my job, you know, to be a congress person.

I'm silky working as software guy and let me know when there there's votes and stuff and although when I meet you, but i'm not GTA stop doing what of doing and that sort of what the wake congress was evident actually uh, to begin with. So I think that you know the the docker science test is actually really good, but because IT IT sort of like IT really puts up the gate of rationality of like no, to enter this gate, you've got ta be really irrational, bureaucratic and stupid. That's the only way you're coming in. And I looked at a light, i'm not fucking in doing you. If you getting me .

thinking about california is the example of this governance, I think there is california is massively mismanaged, I mean, doing a deep dive into their budget right now and they have just got this like massively underfunded pension liability um you know they just have close their budget deficit quote, quote.

But like almost forty percent of that closure is relying on differing one time spending um you know initiatives, ves and things like these sort of gimmick things. And I think that there is like a relatively high level of discovering and bureaucratic bloat that a population and kind of a civilization can. But I do think that at scale and long enough time horizon, the kind of um civil rot ah and social unrest that that promotes will ultimately undermine a democracy.

And I think that like we saw a kind of low level instance of that um during you know black life's matter and some of this kind of like massive looting that went unchecked and we had you know a suspension of Normal rules of of of law order and I I sort of I wonder if um you know how I I almost think IT would take a sort of massive social change that don't t that almost inevitably looks like violent revolution. Uh, unfortunately for some of the bureaucracy, I don't know, I would like to think not. But when you've got such a claros sort of powerful bureaucracy that um command so much capital and has you know um monopoly over state violence, like I don't know what the sort of outcome is. I mean you can sort of chip away at IT through reforms but I I don't know I agree.

I mean I I laugh because I I take a crazy thing, but I thought I am saying we need a violent revolution but I agree that like, I don't know how else you get rid of this crippling, not just stifling little little crippling bureaucracy. You look at public transit in california, for example, we talked about the high speed rail.

Um we talk about long order that these are things that actually people care a lot about like the a of long order that's that is the social contract. If you're not if you're not protecting people from violence with your monopoly on violence, then you have you're on the legitimate government and there is only so long that people, I think will tolerate that. Um I think they are probably the violent test to get worse that happening to people and then something is triggered um and IT will feel something like a like a big reset of some kind. I do think you just need the expiration dates on laws would be helpful.

That be all, I think idealism giving way to pregnant ism is exactly happening. You know, women's idealistic, you know, well, i'm going to change the world and people are like, well, this change is actually agree. And I want the police to protect me .

for being murdered yeah, that is a great I I love the idea, the frame of um of idealism being replaced with primitive sm, I think that is actually just personally how I felt over the last five years or something and become super programatic.

And I have these ideals of things that I care about there like my north stars, you know libertarians or something um but in terms of like what I want politically is I just want things to work and that's really my bar is like what does this work or not and if it's not working, that's a problem. I don't care what the ideology was behind IT wouldn't be nice if does that work or not IT doesn't host system in service sq does not work great. What are some ideas for how to fix this problem? And if you're not coming at me with a solution, then um then i'm not supporting you in any way.

In fact, I will oppose you with that everything going to have if you're just talking about weird, stupid ideas rather than like how do we get these people off of the fucking streets. I don't want to hear from you anymore um my tolerance for that kind of talking is it's zero. I've no tolerance left for that.

My cup is full of bullshit. I cannot take anymore um I speaking more bullshit. This one was a this was a trouble one um I may be that bullshit.

It's an other question. Let lets see what you got. It's sort of bullshit. Uh truck went on the all about IT obviously that concurrently like the wheel stances of of the world um accusing people who want deportation of illegal immigrants of um ethnic cleansing. So this is like the far left of saying, like deportation is equivalent to literal genocide and doubling down, tripling down. He's still talking about this uh truth .

in their opinion is like you know the most .

entire immigrate president of all time and he's going to kill a lot of people um twenty million helped taking people who are not even immigrants is going to be going to people's houses for american citizens and I guess shipping into mexico for some reason but then truck gets on the all import and he's just like, I love immigration um and it's like a smart county and uh we're going to do he said a anyone .

with a college .

degree like he says and he doubt he like goes back to its like way anyway. The color degree, not even just a fold, not even a four year degree. Anyone who gets a two year degree in any subject um we're going to give citizen of a Green card we're going to give in amErica um which just to me sounds really stupid for many reasons but maybe I Martin, what was taken all that .

yeah I actually don't mind that i'm a little bit different you know I don't just believe every right thing thing so like I I I like kind of subscribed most of the other than the immigration stuff, so I don't mind IT. It's not a huge distortion for me. I do you think we need population in our country so it's not such a bad, uh, terrible thing is Better, Better than population shrinking or dramatically shrinking.

I think if people want to come to america, we let them. But I do think that one of the things we have to remember that all presidents is that they don't know what they're talking about, about virtually everything. One of the things that came out of my time crypt of thing was that trump laud IT was A A middle .

coin that we wanted to and that x yesterday.

you know, we explained them what wasn't is sounded, uh, very quickly. You know, he said no doubt, he said no doubt it's it's, it's egypto thing and he's all okay okay, got IT because because there's already a trump metal coin and so again, i'm not I think he's a billion guy and uh, embarrass I said that if he said, mark, if you gave him two pages about crypto that was just everything you need to know.

He would read IT and just know a cold in five minutes and I believe that you know um I can't blame seventy year old guy for not doing the final points of distributed ledger technology uh but in in fact that's not we vote for somebody to do or we'd vote for, you know with vita beter into the president. We vote for somebody who can make good decisions and iron people so I think if this is the way he wants to go know I write with IT and and I don't think that I do think you're write about like OK two years getting associate degree, you know, in history, does that earn your agreed card? Desert a skilled worker? Probably not you. I do think we at the hot side, we shouldn't be there shouldn't a lottery for like map P H D to like, you know pray that they could get into america.

I agree with that. But that's but that's easy to say that I agree with that like I think the bigger problem. So if the campaign that seems like it's been walking back that specific claim.

Um but I don't there's no that it's like the earlier conversation we were having about what is the value inherent of the new ork time that was I mean, your time deserves lot of the the brand that has for being excel reporting even though I ideologically very different but like a CNN for example, like what is the value in heart of CNN versus firewood and I would just reject that completely. I don't think they're Better. Um college, what is the value inherent of a degree from middle the country in like sociology or something to me is like close to nothing.

And what we really need are you going to be bringing people in? Um it's I think that we should actually just ask ourselves like what do we need and let's get a lot of them. They there are laws in the books to limit of doctors.

We can read, for example. And um it's like to keep rid of that shit. We should have unlimited, unlimited doctors.

We have tons of doctors. We have a lot and health crisis in this country um and people can't find doctors. We should have all of the doctors for, for example, to start there. But what I don't want to do is create this weird um we don't need any more staff associated with useless degrees and so do I believe you brought match something a while ago when we were first a couple days ago we were first talking about this ah you talked about the overproduction, the elite and how this is this feel sort of light to make these two of these two topics yeah I mean.

I think they're definitely well. It's just another sort of IT adds more even more elite cash I to um if the the Green card plane were to go through to add even more elite cash I to really non ill degrees in the sense that they don't necessarily sort of map on elite skillset or even an elite sort of disposition in the sense of like a noblesse lige kind of thing.

Um but I think that I mean my thought with this, the reason I was so shocked by by what trump said is because its Green cards he was talking about specifically I mean Green cards are path to like citizenship, basically its permanent residency. Once you have a Green card, you can stay in the us for us of your life. And I do think there's more sensible ways to do a kind of graduate VISA.

I mean, currently what we have with this insane sort of student VISA system as you get if one VISA and then you can apply for an extension to stay for another h twenty four or thirty six months depending on whether not if you're in stem or not. But that's an largest process um and you know england, for example, is a system where you can automatically convert a student VISA to a two year VISA while you look for a job or while you work and then you can transition that to a skilled VISA. Canada has a point space system um you know where different provinces can sort of decide you know what criteria they want in a VISA applicants and are sort of ranked according to a much more logical system that we have which is like this bizarre lottery thing.

And I think to me, the Green card stable to your diploma and the lottery are kind of like on the same end of the insane spectrum. They're just sort of different ways of of going about IT. I mean, I think it's equally insane to say O K math P H D have to go through his lottery where a sort of picking names out of a hat and determining who gets to stay here and who does in and has nothing to do with whether or not you've got an amazing business idea or if you can have a job offer necessarily um as IT is to say, you got a two year degree in sports management from a random university because your dad is maybe I don't know, an Emerald mogul who wants you know somehow to have influence in american politics or whatever um that to me seems insane and I think that obviously trump s kind of speaking temp anew sly.

So so I don't know if that's really gonna. I think it's it's a mistake. Also having said all of that, I think it's a mistake. Too extra polite, too much based on like off the cup .

of comments on yeah is making the health .

up I went yeah j Jason kalicki is to seem like he wanted that trumps like got that good. It's all years yeah I think that like many true things um he was hitting on and something you actually to b job this thought while you were speaking about the difference in different country systems on the college thing truck as a more sort of american first nationalist type guy, is maybe hitting on a problem more than a solution with the proposed solution.

And the problem that knows is really talking about at all is this um use of american resources to train people from foreign countries that we then thrown away. So there's this drain on our resources happening where it's like you could either ways to do about IT in his minds, like will let let them all stay. Well, the alternative other work thing is like we shouldn't have people over here if and be putting resources into their education of the expense of the american if, we're then just gonna give them away.

Um the problem is that it's like that it's that resource strain and um I think that is true and um an interesting way to think about IT. I don't think we wear more liberal country and I mean that in the classic sense. So we don't think about like well, what uses this to spiral and is just like what's free dom and anything goes um but yeah, the resources they go into that there is an opportunity cost when you're trading a foreign resident who then certainly when you just automatically send them back and that system is dumb.

So it's like I think he's write financial aid to yeah I mean.

that is like that is for me, that is a hard that is a red line and you're not getting money from us to do this .

is crazy that that happened yeah yeah I think trump, I mean, I will say also like people are missing the context of that discussion to where trump was IT was prefered by trump talking about his border wall and sort of his remained mexico policy and he he was very um in fact about the need to sort of reinstate a sane policy on the southern border um and so I think you know it's not as if the the the Green are thing did kind of come out of the blue but I do think like directionally the conversation was still like vintage trump uh sort of you know talking about he mentioned they remain mexico policy, which the bite administration immediately scrapped in arguably responsible for why we have this migrant crisis. And you know um well I .

want to leave the last year to you, Martin. We've had I mean, we had a crazy conversation. We discussed um the boy markets stuff.

We discussed this betting markets conceptually. U, M, A, um we hit tech rung in all the dynamics stuff. Um we have left ism, dearing left ism, devouring its old and now a border security, the border general asylum for sociological.

I mean, could you connect all those doubts? Probably not. But if you wanted leave this with one thought, what is IT?

Yeah, I think they all are sort of connected in a lot of ways. Where is just poor critical thinking? Like you have to be able to take your time with some of these really hard understand things, let your emotions sort of die down, and then think about what, what is the right thing or the wrong thing to do.

In the case of polling markets, you have this like fast rush, sort of rush to judgment. The same thing happened with bowman. And the idealism of, like all this guy is promising up our brave new world.

I love IT. I love IT. And then you start to sit there. And a way to second, I didn't love this. I shoud thought about this more. And the same thing, I think, applies to a tech lunch where you know you you sort of hope and wish that you have this independent use.

But then when you consider the source and realized that, you know, these are folks that are aren't taking that hard about, you know, they what the reporting about, they're thinking about, reporting about things they care about. They are trying to see the world the way they wish you IT was not the way that IT actually is. And they're trying to all reality and and sort of distorted into what they wanted to be.

And so a lot of this comes from just like, you know, uh, sort of economy type here sticking hours where we just don't have you an easy way as humans to sort of distil all the reality and think about IT carefully and IT IT always comes from like just emotions and just sort of your your brain playing tricks on you and wanting you to think something. And the the all of the mistakes I made in my life, all of them, which which some people say is like the encyclopaedia of mistakes, all the mistakes I made my life come from like a quick emotional response. And even this trump thing, the trump thing IT sort of came from this giddens of, you know, ww, we have this four hundred million dollars token, and this crazy guy was betting a hundred million dollars of the fake.

And i'm set here in the room with the guy. I know it's not fake and I got so getting that I I like kind of over for this. And you know again, you know we just have to be careful in in slow, in calm and it's it's a lot harder to do that .

that that seems word agree. Thank you so much for joining us and to the rest of you guys, uh, pie wires is off next week for the fourth of july. We take the whole week off. It's one of two weeks we get off a year um for america's birth, which happened to coincide with my own birth on the first so send me birthday cards and gifts it's been a real rate subscribe review we become IT um tell the world about the firewood daily dk Martin for coming and catch you guys in a couple weeks.