LA Protests, Trump's Authoritarian Playbook, and Warner Bros. Discovery Split
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Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway. Scott, we've got a lot to get to today, including the Trump-Elon breakup getting uglier, plus another breakup making headlines. Warner Brothers' discovery is splitting up.

First, let's talk about what's happening on the ground in California. Governor Gavin Newsom says California will sue the Trump administration challenging the president's recent order to federalize National Guard forces amid protests in Los Angeles over immigration raids. Newsom already asked the White House to rescind its deployment of 2,000 National Guard troops to L.A., accusing Trump of manufacturing chaos and violence.

Trump made the order over the weekend, invoking a rarely used federal law. Defense Secretary Pete Hegg says it created more of a problem. He also got in the mix by suggesting active duty Marines could be sent in. Newsom called these comments deranged behavior. I would tend to agree. We're going to be talking to someone about what's happening who is on the ground there right now. Let's start with that. Is a New York Times reporter, Livia Albeck-Ripka,

Livia, welcome. Thanks for coming on. I know you're busy. We're recording this on Monday morning. You've been on the ground in LA reporting over the last few days. How are things looking right now? Well, yesterday when we left downtown Los Angeles, the police and other authorities appeared to have largely dispersed the crowds. I haven't been out yet this morning, so I can't say what's happening right now on the ground. But yesterday was a chaotic day.

Mm-hmm. So talk about what, by chaos. Now, President Trump described Los Angeles as invaded and occupied by illegal aliens and criminals, that's a quote, and said, quote, violent and insurrectionist mobs are swarming. Now, I know a lot of people in Los Angeles, they say that's poppycock to me. I've gotten dozens and dozens of people who live there. I am not there. But does that align with what you're seeing? What are people getting right and wrong about what's happening? I can't really speak to what people are getting wrong about the protests.

but I can tell you what I saw with my own eyes yesterday on the ground. I arrived at the detention center in downtown Los Angeles. It was fairly quiet, then one person with a sign showed up, one person holding a Mexican flag arrived, and that slowly a crowd began to grow. There was one protester calling

imploring the other protesters to remain peaceful. Then at one point tear gas and projectiles were fired into the crowd. I did not see what instigated that. I too was trying to protect myself. I can't speak to exactly what happened in that moment.

But then after that, as the day wore on, the crowd grew and grew. There was another protest happening up at City Hall. That protest converged with the one that was going on at the detention center. So at that point, there were thousands of people. The protesters eventually went down onto the Highway 101, took over the highway for some time. Traffic was stopped.

And there were a lot of people there. So eventually the authorities dispersed the crowd. And that's what I saw at the end of the night by the time we had gone home yesterday. From what you can tell, what do the protesters, when you speak to them, want? What are they looking to do? Several people I spoke to yesterday said that they had been watching events unfold online.

on TV, on the news, on social media over the last several days, and that they'd reached a personal breaking point where they felt they could no longer sit at home. One man I spoke to, his mother had immigrated from Columbia,

and he's a physics professor who lives an hour and a half away, and he said, you know what, I've got to get on the train. I'm going to Los Angeles today. And that was the story of several people who I spoke to, that they just felt that this was the only way they could survive

have their voice heard and take a stand against what's going on. So people like a physics professor, just regular people who are not criminals. A mom and her teenage son, who, although she had safety concerns in bringing him to the protest, also felt that it was really important that her son understand the power of individuals and community when they come together. So that was her story. There are other people who aren't

personally affected by this, but also coming out in great numbers to protest the deportations and to protest the actions of the current administration. What's your sense for sort of the vibe right now? Do you get the sense the temperature is going up or going down? I think it's hard to say with protests.

when you're there in the moment and it is intense and chaotic. It's unclear what is going to unfold the next day and that's why we do our jobs. All right, great. Livia, thank you so much. Thank you, Livia. Thank you so much too.

So, obviously, Libby is a reporter, so she can't characterize what's going on. But I think it's a shit show that Trump is creating on purpose, as many people do, and that he's creating tension in order to pick a fight, essentially. This is what he's trying to do. And creating immigration actions that are things that would cause a vote, would cause people to protest, and then trying to egg them on into worse activities.

So let's talk a little bit more about that. I've called this a complete overreach by a desperate despot. Your thoughts? Well, I've been called hysterical for a while now comparing or drawing similarities between America right now and 30s Germany. And you don't have to be Hitler to borrow methods and worst practices from his playbook. And that is when tanks roll through cities, it doesn't feel like strength.

It feels like a funeral for civil society. Germany in the 30s didn't collapse overnight. It slid into tyranny by normalizing soldiers where citizens used to stand. You know, early Nazi propaganda decided, and we're doing the same thing, we have real problems overseas. You know, there are still...

Russia is still invading Europe. There's real significant issues around China, Pakistan, and India could eventually digress to a nuclear conflict. Iran is trying to spin up reactors. But if you look at, and again, I think this has so many echoes of 30s Germany. Early Nazi propaganda emphasized that Germany's problems were due to internal saboteurs, communists, Jews, immigrants,

And that today, if you look at this rhetoric, they're blaming immigrants, academics, protesters, journalists. It mirrors kind of the same playbook here. And when you have a government who turns its military force inward against journalists, migrants, or citizens who believe in exercising the right to protest in a civil, peaceful manner and justice, you're not defending democracy. You're rehearsing for something much darker.

So it's not the protests themselves. It's not what's going. This is another step towards normalizing an attempt to rebrand

as patriotism. Right. So do you think it's working? Just for people who know, historian Ruth Ben-Ghiat wrote on threads, fascists want to provoke violence so they can justify crackdowns and get some good footage to distort the state propaganda outlets, for state propaganda outlets like Fox News, et cetera. And the media is ill-prepared to push back in saying this is what it is. You know, they're on, like, we just talked to a reporter, she can't say much.

much, right? But it's obviously you bring troops in and you create all kinds of, you know, people. There's rubberneckers, the people that show up. You know, if you recall what happened around the church near the White House when people were protesting, Trump created chaos in order to say it was chaotic, which is sort of like fascism 101, essentially.

How do you assess how California is dealing with this? Obviously, Gavin Newsom has suddenly found his backbone and is pushing back. He said, come on and arrest me because they were making threats to arrest Tom Holman, who is literally it looks like the drunkle is running the show over there. But but he he said, arrest me then or or but but stand down. This obviously has to go to the Supreme Court.

in some fashion, which is problematic in and of itself. But when the state governors are asking them not to do this and have it under control or say they have it under control, how do you assess what's going on with California itself? I actually think this is, I think this, Governor Newsom comes out of this a winner, most likely, because I think what it's doing is it's sort of setting up the next presidential election between Trump's

appointing J.D. Vance and Governor Newsom. And I think so far, Governor Newsom has tried to stay forcefully and dignified. I thought he was smart to say, you know, he's not trying to whip people into a frenzy or he's trying to dial it down. And he's basically taking on Tom Holman and saying, arrest me. I think he's handling this. He's handling this quite well. So I don't, you know, it's, it feels like literally, Cara, the analogy I would use, I was trying to think of an analogy. It feels like you're trying to fix a smoke alarm with a flamethrower.

And they're just looking for a reason. They're trying to provoke someone into shooting someone in uniform such that they can have an overreaction. And in 1992, I came home from graduate school and I found armed National Guard on my corner. I lived in this very peaceful neighborhood in Westwood. And on the corners, there were two what looked like boys, high school boys, in fatigues with, you know, M-15s or assault rifles.

That doesn't feel like safety. It feels like a breakdown in society. It makes you lose faith in your government and it forces you to choose a side. It's just very strange. Then just more broadly, when I think about the role that the presidents or past presidents have played,

And when I think about the role of someone who's powerful and really well-respected, the biggest compliment you can ever receive is someone who asks you to play peacemaker and to deescalate a situation, right? That's when you know you've made it in business is when people

I'm patting myself on the back, but a lot of times I serve as a buffer or someone to mediate disputes between a board and its CEO. That feels really good. That makes me feel important and it makes me feel like I finally have some business maturity. Typically, the President of the United States is deployed all over the world to help bring warring parties back from the brink of war and to settle things and de-escalate.

And so when you have a president who appears to be just manufacturing and escalating, what could ultimately be, I mean, I want to be clear, I'm a bit of a catastrophist here. I think this is one piece of the chessboard to what is a civil war. And that is when you have a government cosplaying authoritarianism that seems to have missed the last or the first half of the last century and what happened in the

in Europe. I mean, this is how it ends. I don't think America ends with a bang. I think it ends with a thump and some, I imagine the next move, all right? Newsom says, we're sick of sending $80 billion to the federal government that you can deploy to red states that then you use to demonize us. So we're not paying our federal taxes. And then, or Texas, say Governor Newsom is elected president. Texas says, we're not certifying the election. We don't honor the

your federal elections. Then before you know it, California becomes a tech economy doing trade with Asia. Texas in the South become an oil and gas economy. The East Coast becomes a financial services economy doing business with Europe. The Midwest, a manufacturing economy with strong relationships with Canada. They maybe developed their own currencies. Governor Newsom tried to weaponize volunteers to create his own army.

This is what they did in the Weimar government. And before you know it, we're like the European Union, but a disunion of states. So I think this is another step to America breaking up. That's the plot of Hunger Games, but go ahead. Oh, really? I literally didn't. I was like, huh, wait a minute. Who's Jennifer Lawrence? That's me. That's funny. I never saw the full series of Hunger Games. Yeah.

Although I'm a big Donald Sutherland fan, I'm not a huge Jennifer Lawrence fan. But anyways, they break into districts. That's the story of Hunger Games? Well, they break into districts and then the center tries to hold them. It's a version of it. My point is people think that the end of America would be some huge civil war. I think it could happen much more quietly than that. Oh, interesting. This is what's being set up. There's going to be a number of states, I believe, who are going to economically...

sequester and/or refuse to honor the next results of the presidential election. I think that is what is being set up here. I have a different thought. I think all these people are going to jail.

Eventually. When you say all these people. The people that are creating this fake war, the fake war people, you know, wag the dog. They're trying to wag the dog. So Tom Holman. Holman. I think they're going to be on investigation the rest of their lives. But he'll get a full pardon from the president. I'm not saying I disagree with you, but let's play this out. All these people will get full pardons at the end of the Trump tenure. Do you think that that could be pierced?

I think it can be pierced. I think there'll be a, I think the further they go, the issue is they're so incompetent. They're so like obviously incompetent in a lot of ways. You don't have to be competent, by the way, to create chaos and create destruction. They're quite good at that too. But someone like Kristi Noem, Tom Holman, you know, Marco Rubio has been dragged into here and has ruined his reputation forever, I suspect.

I think they're all in a world of trouble the minute Donald Trump is out of the picture. And that you can't, people, I don't think citizens put up with this. I don't. I don't. I absolutely do not. I think I'm seeing more people getting more activated in good ways than ever before. And so, you know, it doesn't take much to crack down on people. But this is a big country and it's very hard to control.

And the more they try to control, the more they try to do this kind of nonsense, the more people see through it. Absolutely. Oddly enough, a lot of my relatives who are Trump people are like, this is fucked up. And it's not the leftists they're saying are fucked up, which is usually their way to go. It's more, he's crazy. This is nuts. This is ridiculous. You know, so we'll see. We'll see if other people buy into this. But I do think he exhausts his base and

regular people begin to take back control of this. He can try. That's what he's doing. He's trying desperate. That's why I called him the complete overreach of a desperate despot. Every move he's making lately to me is both despotic, incompetent, and also insecure in a lot of ways. But what you just outlined is my vision of how you would restore and heal America. They'd have moral clarity,

and have the effectively like a Nuremberg trial where you said, okay, you knew this was a lie. You purposely tried to create violence and mayhem. You purposely tried to overrun our elections. You purposely committed fraud. You purposely leveraged

our international sway to enrich your children. I love the idea of a stream of perp walks and moral clarity around this stuff, that America's laws have a long memory. I love that. That's a fantasy of mine. I dream of that at night. My fear, Cara, is that there's actually a lot of people who like what's going on right now. I would push back. Hitler was real popular until he wasn't, wasn't he?

Real popular. Oh, he was popular up until the end, Kara. That's right. That's correct. And he still is in a lot of ways, oddly enough. Yeah, but he was never tried. He killed himself because he knew the Red Army was circling. Of course. I'm a long view person. I think there's going to be a lot of damage in the interim. I think your scenario is perfectly possible. Absolutely. No question. But in my scenario, every single person who's behaved like Trump ends up

ends up badly. I would say badly. Whether it's Mussolini, Saddam Hussein, Gaddafi, the Ceausescus, it just always ends with the same story, which is, you know, the people around these people...

Well, I know. I mean, I think our country is slightly different. I think we let Nixon go off to, you know, we tend to be more forgiving in that regard. But it's the same version. It's a metaphorical version of that. And we'll see. I think he's...

Look, he's an old man, so we'll see how long he lasts, right? But the, and this is just, as you say, biology is undefeated. I mean, all joking aside, he did the same trip Biden did the other day, if you saw it, the same exact trip that Biden did. On the stairs. Going on the stairs. So I was just like, well, you people, hold on, because he's what...

Hold on to Trump because he's all you got to these people. That's my feeling. But to your point, I like to move to what Democrats should be doing. I don't understand why a Democrat hasn't forcefully... We're so obsessed with grabbing social virtue and taking the higher road. I don't understand why a Democrat hasn't announced her president and said, and on...

The order I'm passing, I'm getting congressional approval to arrest people who've engaged in fraud, to arrest people who have engaged in trading off our country's geopolitical power for personal enrichment. I'm arresting people who have fomented violence while using the military, while knowing that these actions were un-American, unconstitutional, and not needed. And here is the exact legislation I'm going to propose

that will pierce any pardon. Why has no one stood up and said, hi, I'm a Democrat and I have actual fucking testicles? What would they be saying? This would be the mother of all lock her up. Can you imagine what they would be threatening? What's really interesting is that Kamala Harris warned about troops in the streets.

So did Hillary Clinton. Everything Hillary Clinton mourned about, he did exactly. So I'm going to listen to the women in this case. She also, Kamala Harris talked about this. You can make fun of her all you want, but she had this one cold of what he was, his movement. And she's not the only one who said he would do this.

But she was probably the most outspoken. There was a great story in The Atlantic this week by a friend of mine, Mark Lubitsch, about Obama's sort of chill pill kind of attitude. I do not know where this man is. Like, I'm sorry. There is not a strong Democrat yet who has emerged. And it could be someone who announces for president. You're right. That's a great way to do it. But the only person

person with the gravitas, and people are like, why doesn't George Bush Jr. do it? He doesn't have the same gravitas that President Obama has. Stand up and not just when he feels like it, not just when he wants to make some announcement and then he goes off and plays basketball with celebrities, which is what he's been doing, honestly. But someone like that, they're very, I was trying to think, who could do this and create a nationwide movement?

problem for Trump. And it is only Obama. It is only Obama who can do it. I think it could be a new voice. The problem is, I agree with you. I'd love to see Obama do it.

But the office of president, there is a generally accepted principle that former presidents do not get involved in politics and come out swinging. Not this guy. This guy doesn't deserve that. I get it. I understand it. And I'm not saying I don't disagree with it. The better opportunity is for someone to emerge with a new vision for America who's a Democrat.

and just comes right out and says, "I think there are crimes that have been committed here. I'm not going to threaten my political opponents with incarceration, but I'm going to uphold the Constitution and my belief

is that there have been several criminal acts committed here and I'm going to hold this. By the way, if some Democrats have continued to engage in insider trading, I'm going to hold them accountable. Somebody needs to stand up and say, I am running to defend the Constitution and on day one, I'm going to demonstrate and put on full display what the Constitution actually, if we don't restore incentives to the downside as well as the upside,

then it's kind of game over and no one's running on it. No one stood up and said, I'm ready. This is what I'm going to do. I'm not sure who has, you can't name, I can't name someone. I think it's someone TBD. I think it's probably a democratic governor who we don't even know yet because at this time, we know who they are. Well,

Well, yeah, but we didn't. OK, they weren't household names. Clinton and Obama were not. Nobody knew who they were in this part of the election cycle. This is a huge white space and opportunity for a Democrat. All right. I see. I see that. I think right now Barack Obama's got to stand the fuck up and stop. Stop playing basketball and hanging out. I'd like to see it, but I don't think it's going to happen. He's got to stop. He did the whole if this were me. Can you imagine if I did that? But.

I think, quite frankly, he has such a nice life and he's so focused on maintaining his brand equity. I don't think he wants to take the risk. I agree with you. I think he should. I don't think he will. I don't think he will because I think he's the only one who could and he should do it. And it's his duty as an American citizen. What about Bill Clinton, if you're going to pull people in the past? I think a lot of the exes have a lot of baggage compared to President Obama. I think a lot of them do. I think...

Bill Clinton. I know it sounds dumb, but he's older and his voice is bad. There's only one who's looking good and in fighting shape is President Obama. George Bush does not have the same. I mean, all of them together, great. But President Obama is the one that needs to stand up. And I got so stressed. Like,

I pushed that article and they were like, what about George Bush? Why should he come out? Why should he come out against this? I'm like, because they've ruined his legacy because it's the right thing to do. And he's the only one, honestly. I can't think of anyone else in public life. It's a huge white space for someone who wants to be

I mean, I've, and you received these calls too. I've received calls from six people who are excited to come on the pod, which is their way of saying I'm running for president. And what I say to their PR people is like, well, tell him to start actually running for fucking president then. And come up with actual sober plans and talk about bold solutions, attach real money and numbers to it, talk about what we actually need to do. And also-

I mean, they were saying he was, President Trump, and it was effective, I'm not being indignant, it was infected. He was saying, chanting, lock her up around Hillary Clinton's e-mails.

And we as Democrats are like, no, we've got to take the high road. Well, that's what I'm saying. Let's stop standing on ceremony. I mean, I don't know. I think Obama, get off your tail. Yeah, but I think it should be a stepstone to this person being elected. I guess. I think he's the only one. I think it's a big opportunity for somebody. We'll see. Okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, how Trump is threatening Elon, even though Elon has acquiesced, it looks like.

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Scott, we're back with the latest fallout from the Elon Trump breakup. Trump says his relationship with Elon Musk is over and threatening serious consequences if Elon funds Democratic candidates. Trump is pushing everyone around. Trump has been busy talking to reporters and working the phones over the last few days, calling Elon disrespectful, a big-time drug addict. He's also selling that new Tesla, apparently. There's been talk about a possible truce, of course. Political reporter, there was a call with representatives for both men on Friday. I think that was just David Sachs calling Donald Trump up.

Elon, for his part, has deleted several of his tweets from last week, including the one tying Trump to Jeffrey Epstein. And on Sunday, he appeared to be kissing the ring, retweeting posts from Trump and J.D. Dance about the L.A. protests. I've been actually, unfortunately, going on Twitter and watching what he's up to. And he seems to be—first, he was focused a lot on SpaceX and things like that, and now he's—

He's sort of retweeting a lot of support for Donald Trump again. So I think he's probably trying to get in there. He doesn't want to. He realizes he's in a deleveraged position and he's decided not to go rogue. People have

actually calmed him down. I don't think it's going to last for him. But a lot of people are trying to get Elon to back off and acquiesce. And I think a lot of it is because his businesses will be at risk. Tesla's not recovered a bit at the end of the week, although the company is still facing some pain of Trump spending bill passes. In terms of SpaceX, Elon appears to have changed his mind on decommissioning the Dragon spacecraft. That was so ridiculous.

The NASA and the Pentagon officials are urging SpaceX competitors to quickly develop rockets and spacecraft, according to The Washington Post. And we're just learning now that some Trump officials had some concerns about the Starlink getting installed at the White House around this year, which we brought up many times. A lot of Tesla's getting downgraded all over the place. And obviously, people in mega world have to choose sides.

Though new polling by YouGov suggests that Republicans are not conflicted with their loyalties. Ask who they would choose between Trump and Musk. Seven in 10 Republicans said Trump, although three, that's interesting. Same thing with J.D. Vance, who was pushed forward by, who got his job through Elon Musk and Peter Thiel, essentially.

He's always going to be loyal to the president. He hopes Elon eventually comes back in the fold. David Sachs, of course, because he's an unctuous toady, has been privately encouraging Musk to call the president, try to mend the relationship. Now, Steve Bannon, on the other hand, is making trouble. He's urged Trump to deport Elon and seize control of SpaceX. Bannon also provided details with Elon's Oval Office fight with Treasury Secretary Scott Besant to The Washington Post.

revealing how the fight got physical. Apparently there was a ramming. Elon rammed his shoulder into Besson's rib, gave like a rugby player and Besson hit him back. Musk has called him a liar. And we haven't heard anything from Stephen Miller's wife, Katie, who recently left Doge, up in the White House to work for Elon, though Elon had to rebuke his AI chatbot, Grok, after falsely claimed a tweet where Elon brought about taking Katie Miller from her husband was real. Grok believes it was, and Elon said it wasn't.

As I said, Elon called a ban on a liar. So what do you think? How do you look at this? What do I think? I think if this ran in Gayer, it'd be a Bravo reality show sponsored by Grindr. I just, I mean, forgot. Can you imagine two bigger bitches than this? I mean, it's just like, God. If I had two 12-year-olds behaving this way, let me get this. And I just love how

Okay. Trump or Musk thinks he's illuminating to the world that Trump was guilty of a sex crime on an island. And then Trump threatening to deport him. No, not Trump. Bannon. Bannon suggested it. Oh, is that? I thought Trump said it had come to his attention that he was here illegally. Oh, he might have said something. I don't know if he said that. Bannon's the one pushing that one. And then Musk.

Musk basically puts out a tweet that basically intimates he's fucking Stephen Miller's wife. Well, he says he didn't. He said it was a false tweet. Let's just keep it clean. Oh, yeah. I bet. Grok doesn't think it was. Yeah, I bet. He says Grok is wrong. I'm with Grok on that one. Anyways, look, I don't...

Again, this is all just such a distraction. To be clear, Trump, Musk has no problem with the bill. He knew what was in the bill. He's part of the architecture here. This notion that it's exploding the deficit bothers him as he tries to cut 40 or 50 percent of the IRS. This is what happened.

or my read, he wanted to get involved in China relations. He wanted- He wanted to be co-president. Yeah. No, he wanted to be an unelected president and Trump said no. Scott Pesent said, "I'm not letting you pick these people." They got into a fight. He got punched in the face, it looks like. Now he's decided that all of a sudden he doesn't like the tax bill and Trump is hitting back.

The problem is it's a huge distraction from more important issues here. Musk has more to lose because Trump is not about absolutely weaponizing the government and threatening specific punishment for his companies, whether it's tariffs, taxes, rescinding EV taxes, canceling all contracts.

with SpaceX, but we've said it was dangerous. Investigating, bringing back the SEC, bringing back, he could do all manner of things. Or what he's done to other citizens. He's been sending other citizens to concentration camps. And people get triggered when I say the word, the definition of a concentration camp

is an incarceration facility that is purposely put outside of your own country such that the people you send there are no longer protected by the laws and norms of their home country. These are concentration camps. They fit the definition. Are they exterminating people there? No, not that we know of, but these fit the definition of concentration camps. If you can send people that it ends up have not committed a crime,

Why could he theoretically not send you, me, or Elon Musk? That's the problem with all of this is that we have decided a pillar of our justice system is we err on the side. We have made a decision.

to give people really wonderful rights. We have erred on the side of occasionally someone who deserves to go to jail doesn't rather than accidentally lock up a gay hairdresser who's done nothing wrong and at Hellscape and El Salvador. We've decided to err the other way. And this guy has decided to go the other way and err on the side of people who are innocents. Anyways, my point is he can...

You know, Musk, to his credit, I mean, you know, Honey Badger don't care. He's under the impression I'm more powerful. And to his credit, he's true. He's right. He did get, you know, you could make a very solid argument that he, in fact, did get Trump elected.

So, but again, I worry, I worry it's not, it's again a distraction from what I think is the bigger issue here. Which is the grab for power. Absolutely. What's interesting is I'm just looking at Elon's tweets now. He's absolutely backing Trump on this, on the, on what's happening. And he's putting, and he's, at the same time, he's putting out there, like he just, if Elon Musk hadn't bought Twitter, none of us would know what's going on in LA right now. Right.

And so he's just retweeting everything anti-immigrant and he's back to that. And he goes, if you talk to someone who gets all their information from legacy media, they're living in a different world, they're getting it from your podcast or news from X.

We're living in an alter. So his fake reality, he's pretending, he's using it to pump X, which is doing rather well, you know, because of this, because of his war with Trump. So he's just, he's back into the fold. And, you know, my only thing is he's going on a bender again, Scott.

he'll go on another bender, which is what I think happened with Trump here. But he's not going to get back. Trump is not letting him back in. Apparently, he's quite hurt that Elon and he aren't friends anymore. But I don't think Trump will let him in only if he is completely prostrate on the ground to Trump. All I think Trump wants to do is just get him to neutral. I don't think Trump's going to let him back in. He's like, this guy

this guy is dangerous, uncontrollable, very powerful. I think he's just going to want to come to some sort of detente with the guy. Yeah, that's the smartest thing. But he's not going to let him near the West Lawn again. I will say this though, I think Musk is just such a terrible role model and a weird person, but I would 100 percent, because I have heard indirectly from Elon Musk, I would 100 percent accept an invitation to do a weekend in Vegas with him. I can't imagine anyone better to roll with in Vegas.

48 hours, I'm in. You, him, and Katie Miller. That'll be great. I also want, I'd like to roll with Laura Loomer. And if we can dig up the spirit of David Carradine, who was caught strangling himself in a Thai hotel. Okay. I'm down. That would be a pretty good weekend. Who would be the fifth? Maybe George Michael. I think he liked the party. Well, did he? I mean, did he? Right? Yeah. I'm not abusive like that, though. Yeah. Anyways, we'll see.

Let's think about it. This is important. He'd be a lot of fun. Anyway, one thing, though, Doge has collected two wins from the Supreme Court. First, the court granted an emergency application filed by the Trump administration to allow members of the Doge to access Social Security Administration data. Second, SCOTUS ruled that Doge doesn't have to turn over internal records to a government watchdog group for now. Now, the three liberal members dissented from both rulings. You

You know, I think Doge is over. I think they're leaving. There's people that are going to stay embedded, and different cabinet members will do what they want and use the Doge people there. But, you know, they've cut the head off of this thing. And the Doge father, whenever he calls himself the Doge father, it's ridiculous. It's just cosplaying. It's so stupid. It was interesting. My favorite part was Bill Gates reportedly visited the White House on Friday to argue for reversing Doge cuts. Just moving on in there.

And they will, all those different tech people will do whatever they're in. In Bill Gates's case, he's trying to reverse USAID things. So good for Bill for going. Good job, Bill, is what I say. Go right in there. And it's showing how he was the original Doge father, really, and a lot of Godfather in a lot of ways.

But I think pretty much Doge is over and they will, the cabinet members will do whatever they want. But Russell Vogt still remains in charge and trying to push through the idea of dismantling government. And that certainly isn't going to stop. Doge, I think it's, yeah, you're right. It's over. It's, I'm really curious what the state of the tax bill is. I'd love to be in those Senate hearings right now.

around if this thing has any chance of getting through or if this is all posturing from Rand Paul and the few Republican senators who claim to care. If you upload the tax bill into ChatGPT and ask it to summarize it, it says it's an authoritarianism wrapped in bureaucratic language. It doesn't even talk about the tax end of it. It talks about things like essentially,

these senior officials can no longer be found in contempt of court. It transfers massive. If they get congressional subpoenas to come testify on an alleged crime, they can ignore them. It massively transfers power from agencies where it's full-time,

full-time government officials to a massive transfer of power from them to appointed officials, Trump-backed allies. Yeah, the executive. It moves everything to the executive. Yeah, it moves everything upward towards appointees and the executive. It's so funny that ChatGPT focused on

the authoritarianism as opposed to the economics of this tax bill. And it also said what was interesting, one of the points it came back with was this is a really elegant, legally deft piece of legislation. Russell Vogt. Russell Vogt is the one you need. Not focus on Elon, that fucking clown. Russell Vogt is the one that's trying to dismantle and give power to the executive. That's the whole goal here.

I think they'll regret it when Democrats come into power if they give these powers. Well, that's a really interesting point. And again, I would love to see Senators soon to be Governor Bennett

basically put out a list. There's so many things a Democrat could be doing right now. - Why don't you get your friend Bennett to get up there and start talking? - Yeah, I'm a huge fan of the senators. You know, actually based on that, I am going to reach out to him this afternoon. But why wouldn't someone who's interested in running for president put out a list of executive orders they're gonna do on day one? - Yeah, yeah. - These are the executive orders I have planned.

Yeah, right. All right. Let's go on a quick break. And when we come back, Warner Brothers' Discovery is splitting in two, as we said it would. Support for Pivot comes from Quince.

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By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quince gives you luxury pieces without the markups. Quince was kind enough to send me a few items. I have to say I'm wearing them all right now. Actually, I find them very comfortable. I got a shirt, I got a sports bra, I got some pants, all kinds of things and they're very comfortable. I think Scott should have a more leisure wear. I think he would look

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Thank you.

That was so sus.

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Scott, we're back. Warner Brothers Discovery will split into two public companies. Streaming and studios will be one company, including movie properties and HBO Max. And the other company will be the global networks company, including CNN, TNT, Sports and Discovery Network.

CEO David Zaslav will lead streaming and studios, and the company's current CFO, Gunar, I think his name is, will become the CEO of Global Networks Business. The split is expected to be complete by the middle of next year. Shares of Warner Brothers Discovery are up over 7% at the time of the taping, although they've been really down. Scott, we discussed that possibility last month, and you got this partly right, but this is something we've talked about previously.

for a while that this was going to, a la Versant, which is the Comcast runoff. And we both have talked about this extensively, but let's listen to what we just said recently.

I think I know what's going to happen here. The company is going to go good bank, bad bank. It's going to be HBO and Warner Brothers, the theater business, the characters, the IP, which will feed into HBO. HBO is the brand. It'll have another component, a subset, HBO Max or something that's all the other shit. And then they will spend all the TV and the cable assets into, they'll either consolidate or be part of a consolidation with Comcast. And that is, they're just...

These are still highly profitable businesses, but they're shrinking, so that means consolidation and cost cutting. All right. It's almost exactly what happened at Comcast here, which is about to almost be completed, I think, and therefore possibly a merger acquisition or the opposite, they merge in some way. The company has not yet announced that it will split Warner Brothers Discovery's huge debt, $37 billion, although it's cheap debt, but it's still debt nonetheless.

But it will take out a $17 billion short-term loan ahead of the split to bring down that. How should they divvy up the data? I mean, again, a bunch of small little boats, little media boats. I was on a panel with Anderson Cooper over there again after they showed Good Night and Good Luck. And

Anderson was asking me, you know, are there going to be this big thing? I'm like, no, everything's getting split up. And like, that's at least you can't have these big entities anymore that are spending enormous amounts of money and don't make any sense anymore from an audience point of view. So how do you look at this and how should they divvy up the debt? I think that's probably the most important thing here. Well, this was absolutely the smart thing to do because the market wants...

a consistent story. And the story around legacy cable assets are that they're still hugely profitable, but they're declining businesses. And really the business strategy, and it can be a very effective strategy for creating shareholder value, is to go acquire other struggling cable assets and cut costs faster than the business declines.

These things usually don't decline as quickly as people think. No, like AOL dial-up. That's right. If the business is declining 6-8 percent a year, as long as you can go roll it up with Comedy Central and name your team Bravo or whatever it is, as long as you can consolidate the back end and cut costs faster than 8 percent a year, that is a creative to the bottom line and that's a decent trading stock.

And then you have the other thing that requires capital to grow because HBO and Warner are still technically growth assets. So you have to have a consistent story and these stories don't work. So it makes sense. The argument they're having right now, and I knew this before it happened, David Zasloff gets the cool shit, he gets to be on the cool side, he gets Warner Brothers and HBO,

And the CFO, who is always a bad cop. Who actually is considered a very good executive, but go ahead. I'm sure. But his job is to consolidate and cut costs and go on an emanation. He's very good at cost cutting. That's what he's known for. And to call Brian Roberts and say, all right, how do we put these two things together? And the argument they're having right now, and consultants are in there and they're all posturing, is how much debt

is the bad bank going to have to take with them? Because they're the more profitable one in the short term. But they're all looking at, I think they have a total of about 33 billion in debt and they're all saying, "Okay, who has to take mom?" It's a divorce and we're taking care of our parents and their real liability. Dad's a real liability living upstairs. Who has to take dad?

It's like in the fight between Musk and Trump, who gets custody of JD Vance? Who has to take him? Who does?

Well, they'll come to some accommodation. One won't get all the debt, they'll split it, but it's just a question of what the split is. Why should the money-making one take it at all? Because they have the ability to service the debt. Right. Okay. What they want to do is make sure these companies still have, and their existing shareholders are going to get shares in both. Also, if you saddle

If you saddle the bad bank, the cable TV news company, let's call it the cable division, with too much debt, it creates a poison pill where no one can acquire it or merge with it. They're doing a delicate dance here to try and as you, this reverse engineers, it's all very,

incestuous. David Zaslav was the highest paid CEO in media or old media. He made $53 million, 52%, I believe, of shareholders said, we don't approve your compensation while the stock has gone down 66% because his compensation was tied to paying down debt. And he has done that. He and the CFO have paid down the debt, I think, from like 50 or 55 billion to like 33. Also well-paid, by the way. But they've got to figure out a way to figure out who's going to take...

who and how much of this 33 billion in debt. But this is a smart move. We knew this was coming. There's going to be massive consolidation. Let's talk about what's next. So Versant's coming out. That'll be its own thing. And they'll split off from NBC. It's exactly the same thing here. So what happens? Does the people buying Paramount pick up one of these things? Does ABC pick it up, which has its own troubles with Terry Moran doing that stupid post that he did?

about Stephen Miller. 100% accurate, but he's a beat reporter. He never should have done that. What do you see? Where does it go next? Because we all knew this was coming, so it's not like...

You know, it's interesting. I have said this publicly several times over at CNN, and all the different people there are like, do you think they're going to split? I'm like, yeah, like, that's what they're doing right now. They're figuring out how to do it, you know. But where does it go next, I think, is really...

I assume they merge with either they merge with a versant kind of thing or they get bought by a by a rich guy like David Ellison and that gang over there or a hedge fund. Right. I mean, where does it go? So the ecosystem is getting it's getting late very early. And that is these are declining assets and every deal they've struck. The deals get worse as time goes on.

And I don't know if it's legal, but if it is, I would imagine the Roberts family, the people who control Comcast, are basically advising on how to structure the Warner deal such that they can almost immediately merge with the bad bank of the Warner assets and start consolidating the back end. There's no reason why

CBS and CNN can't share a lot of the same. The CBS newsroom can't be mostly the CNN newsroom and vice versa. Does that create the same thing they're in now with mixing Paramount with them? Is it just richer people? Because it's the same, it just puts, instead of Warner Brothers, it's Paramount. Well, no, what I'm suggesting is just that we don't need all these newsrooms. Newsrooms are really expensive. You might have different front-facing brands with different distinct audiences and advertiser relationships.

But you'll say, okay, CBS Newsroom and CNN Newsroom, they're each 1,000 people. Combined, they're going to be 1,200 people. And we're going to rebrand it, and we have our front-end anchors. We have

I forget, it's Gail Keane, CBS, I forget, and Anderson Cooper over here. But a lot of the back end and the office space and the studios and the benefits and the HR manager and the CFOs and the tech people and the, you know, it's all going to be, they've got to massively consolidate the back end. But why would Paramount grab it? Because again, I don't know if it would be Paramount. I was just using that example. Paramount. So merge NBC with CNN. I think the most, the cleanest one right now, the most obvious is Comcast's assets and Warner. But because Paramount

Paramount, Jesus Christ, she is being backed into a corner. There is a non-zero probability right now that National Amusements slash Paramount declares bankruptcy in the next 12 months. Well, it's owned by, it's going to be owned by a

wealthy group of people. It's out there. Yeah, but here's the thing, Cara. The FTC will not approve this until Trump gets his pound of flesh from his ridiculous 60 Minutes lawsuit, of which Sherry is under huge pressure not to bend a knee. If she doesn't bend a knee,

the FTC will not approve this transaction. And she has somewhere between, based on what I've read, somewhere between a quarter of a billion and half a billion dollars in debts coming due from loans from David Ellison's father and money she owes investment banks. And if she can't pay that debt, they can bumper into a restructuring at which point all the suitors go, you're weak, we're not paying you this, we're paying you less.

So she's in a really weird spot right now. She's got some health problems too. And she's battling thyroid cancer. So this ecosystem, this is going to be a very interesting 12 or 24 months. Yeah, it'll be interesting where it all ends up. What's your likeliest? I would assume maybe the Warner Brothers assets and the Comcast assets get brought together, right? That's 100%. And so it's CNN, NBC. And that's why I was saying Brian Roberts and his team, and they're very smart,

is probably in conversations, if it's legal, I'm trying to think if they're allowed to do that, if it's to say, this is what the combined company would look like and how we make this as seamless as possible post-COVID.

post the spin. It would make sense for those guys, the Versant group, they'd be stronger, they'd have more options, they could cut costs better. They'd have the MSNBC more obviously like Fox News, I'm not calling them Fox News. But why do MSNBC and CNN need independent newsrooms? I mean, this is heresy. Actually, the NBC newsroom is going with the other gang.

Yeah. So the newsroom itself is actually the actual news gatherers. But what you said, I,

I don't think it's going to happen that it might be a hedge fund because here's the thing, even at these discounted numbers, they still don't make financial sense. What's telling is that the three people surrounding the Paramount sale, obviously Sherry Redstone, Edgar Bronfman was in there for a while, and then David Ellison. What do all three of these people have in common? Rich kids as you notice. They're rich kids because guess what? Anyone who made their own money and understands how to make money and understands how to read,

who took accounting and makes money, doesn't spend daddy's money, isn't getting fucking near these things. Because these guys, David Zaslav and David Ellison, are willing to overpay with other people's money so they can go to the Academy Awards. And hedge funds aren't allowed to do that. I mean, a friend of mine co-founded Anchorage and his co-founder bought Lionsgate. And I remember saying, there's cheaper ways to go to the Academy Awards. And he ended up getting bailed out by Amazon and actually making money

But there's no accident that the players here are all rich kids. Yeah, it's interesting. We'll see what happens, but I'm sure there'll definitely be a consolidation here, a very obvious consolidation. It's a question of which way it happens. The thing is they get outsized attention given how small they are compared to other businesses.

I keep saying that. I'm like, you know, you're little. You know, you're little. You're not who you used to be. By the way, that was a really fun thing for them showing off good night and good luck on the network. I thought that was just a lovely thing to do. All right. One more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

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Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. I guess I'll go first. There were a lot of options for me for the win. DC Public Schools will enforce a cell phone ban starting next year. My kids are in DC Public Schools. I'm very happy about that. Also, the Tonys were amazing or amazing or really fun. I love Cynthia Erivo. She provided a really good show. And even though that's a small business too, in a lot of ways, I thought they did. It was really fun and entertaining, which is what they should be.

and minimum of lecturing. It was just really good performances, especially bringing back the Hamilton group together to sing. It was super fun. But I think my win of the week is seeing you in a satin boxing robe, Scott. Go on! I have to say, first of all,

I sent it to Alex. He's like, Scott's in good shape for a man of his age, essentially. That looked really fun. You looked adorable. What a cute thing. Your shirt off was the best part with the drag queens. I loved this Scott Galloway who's yelling at Piers Morgan, who's wearing a boxer. I like this Scott. I like what I've made here, this man that I've affected in some way. But tell me, explain.

Explain to me how that went very briefly. A good friend of mine, Pablo Derudis, does this thing called the final rumble where two people pretend to be boxers. They answer questions. They each answer them. And then the crowd decides who wins the round. At the end of the bout, you get a belt based on who wins. So the last one was Anthony Scaramucci versus Kevin O'Leary. And this one was me and a really impressive young man named

Mr. Michael Singleton, who I just thought was lovely. And I hope that I hope there's more conservatives like him. Yeah. I mean, let's be honest. I'm in Detroit. I go up against a 34 year old black Republican. The odds were he was going to win. But he didn't. You won.

Yeah, well, you know, daddy did a little- - Have you win, you had the belt. - I had the belt, yeah. - Are you gonna wear that? - But it was a ton of fun. I really enjoyed it. And the thing I'm so excited about is like, I said to Pablo, I said, "Okay, but I get to announce my entrance." You know when boxers come out? - Yeah, yeah, of course. - And sure, Michaels was really good. He did a drum line from an all black, I think college or high school in Detroit. It was really cool.

And I went through no small effort and expense. He was wearing a suit, it looked like. Yeah, he was wearing a suit. Yeah. What a mistake. He's a handsome man, by the way. He is a handsome man. He's a good looking kid. And I found five drag queens. And that was the best part of it.

That's why you won. Oh, my God. That is entirely why you won. Well, you worked out extra. Like, I got to say, you look, I've seen you somewhat naked. You look like you're in much better shape. You did some work there to get to that. Oh, yeah. Working out four times a week for four years. Must be the testosterone. Anyways, testosterone, excuse me. The drag queens were...

That was the best. But that was a lot of fun. Thanks for the kind words. I really enjoyed it. Good. And you won. I did win. Yes, I did win. That to me, it should have been a fail, but Scott, it was a win. I appreciate that. And my fail, well, obviously Trump's ridiculous behavior, but I'm going to do a tech one. Bill Atkinson, who was Apple computer designer and created software that enabled the visual approach of Elisa and Macintosh computers, died of pancreatic cancer.

Here's an unsung hero of—there's several of them, including people who are living like Susan Kerr and others. But Bill Atkinson was a critical, critical—the way we compute today is because of inventions from people like him and what a really important inventor was.

Lovely guy. And just one of these people you don't, you know, you hear about some of them like Johnny Ive and others, but Bill Atkinson was just a really critical person to the development, early development of computer design and everything. Just, as I said, a lovely person. And sadly, he had pancreatic cancer. But that was my fail. But people should look him up, read

up, read about him. He's an important figure. And you will have never heard of him, but he was critically important. What about you, Scott, besides your nudity drag queen thing? My win is, just to call balls and strikes, there is one component of the GOP tax bill that I do like, and that is they've threatened to raise taxes to

on endowments. So they're talking about increasing the tax on the profits of endowments from a little over 1% to upwards of 21%, which would be obviously a substantial increase in taxes, almost like what regular people pay in taxes. Aimed at Harvard, I assume. Well, let's be honest. It's a war on education for the wrong reasons, but that doesn't mean it can't have positive outcomes. And that is, I've been saying this for a while,

And the builders say unless they spend more than 5% of their endowments, they need to stop hoarding wealth. And I believe American universities largely set the tone for big components of America and this rejectionist bullshit culture where we're hoarding money instead of spending it on financial aid or expanding the size of freshman classes such that

These institutions can sit on endowments the size of the Costa Rican GDP. Meanwhile, they decide to only let in 500 people. That means you're no longer a public servant. You're in a man's back. So you want them to spend that money so they don't get taxed on it. And because of the threat in this bill of these taxes on their endowments going from 1.5% to potentially 23%, they are proposing a solution.

where they would spend at least 5% each year of their endowments on things like financial aid, new facilities, the local economy, or expanding freshman seats.

and that is exactly what they should be doing. There is no reason these elite universities, I mean, I've said this before, if higher education were pharmaceutical, it's a pill that makes you less likely to be obese, more likely to get married, more likely to stay married, more likely to be civically involved, less likely to kill yourself, less likely to be obese. And that pill is called higher ed. So why would we hoard that pill and make it so expensive?

when we have the ability to distribute that pill to vastly more of the American public. So I'm hoping that one benefit, even if this bill doesn't go through, which I hope it doesn't, is universities are responding and saying, okay, we get it. We should probably, if we have

$6 million per student, maybe we should spend money on financial aid and maybe letting in a few more students. We have to stop this culture of hoarding amongst the most fortunate and blessed. So that's my win. So wrong reasons, but the right thing. That's right. I think an outcome of this might be that universities realize once you get above a certain point, your job is to spend the money and add value, not to hoard wealth.

And I think that's a lesson for Americans. I decided seven years ago I was going to spend everything above a certain amount or give it away. Hoarding wealth is really a virus in America. It affects people and it affects institutions. Anyway, my fail is... So Harvey Milk, many people, some people might not know him. I know you know him. But essentially, Harvey Milk, who was...

a US supervisor, one of the first openly gay people to be elected anywhere, one of the first openly gay officials to be elected. Most people don't know this, he served in the Korean War on a submarine rescue ship.

and later as a diving instructor. And his military review records used the word outstanding, and he was promoted to officer. And then in 1955, his superiors learned that he was gay, and they gave him a choice. They said either resign and forfeit your military benefits with something called other than honor,

He had to give up his military benefits or face court martial. He resigned and then he went on to be, what's the term? Supervisor. He was in my district. Even between that, I forget what the term is. Anyways, he became supervisor. He was supervisor and he was murdered alongside the mayor, Moscone, by a fellow supervisor.

I think it was 2017, they said, he served honorably, maybe a way of compensating and also a way of recognizing and giving a nod to what is probably 5%, if not more, of our nation's armed services consists of gay people, given that somewhere between 5% and 8% of the U.S. population identifies as gay.

They played such a huge role. Wouldn't it be nice to give this guy his overdue recognition and name a ship? And they named this basically this oil tanker that's not an especially important ship, the USNS Harvey Milk. Secretary Hegseth, in the first week of Pride Week, commands issues in order to rename the ship and saying that this is in line with restoring what they call a warrior mentality, a warrior culture.

It is just such an affront to the gay community. It is so deeply bigoted. It is so unnecessary. It is so cruel. It is just so fucking weird and even distinct of the moral argument. What does that say to gay people who want to be in the armed services? And folks, just so you know, the straight people showing up or the straight men and the gay men, I imagine two thirds of them or 70% of them can't get through the initial screening because they either are obese or mentally unfit.

So you want to take an additional 5 percent of the population and say, you're not welcome here. And distinct to the moral argument, I can pretty much prove to anyone that gay people are no better or no worse than defending our shores and killing bad people. And so you're making us less safe.

When you decide to inhibit the pool of people to defend our country, you are making us less safe. So this not only like weird and straight up bigoted against the guy who served his country honorably and was unjustifiably discharged, right? A small nod to him, a small nod to the gay community. Oh no, we can't let that stand.

And it makes us weaker. It makes us, what is the message we're sending to good, young, gay men and women who want to serve their country? I know you experienced a little bit of this. I wanted to be in the military, Scott. And I wasn't because I didn't want to lie. And you refused to go along with don't ask, don't tell. Yeah. That makes us weaker. Yeah, my dad was in the Navy. When we shrink the pool of potentially great, great human capital, it makes us weaker. So my fail is,

is this bigoted, weak and weird renaming of the USNS Harvey Milk. This was a very, this was a really important man that gave people a lot of comfort, made it probably a lot easier for people to represent their community in a transparent way in leadership positions. And there's something just very, and by the way, I don't, I didn't like it when Civil War general statues were torn down.

I think it's part of history. If the community decides they want to tear it down, fine. But I thought we got way too fucking woke and started tearing down. Yeah, they're woke in a whole different way. There were people in London who wanted to tear down statues of Churchill. I mean, I hate- Why do you call it when it's the right doing this? Is it woke or is it just drunk in the case of Pete Hegseth? Well, this is just straight up bigotry. This is just straight up homophobia and bigotry. But all of these things-

make us less strong. It does. It does. Thank you, Scott. Harvey Milk was a great leader in San Francisco and was killed by crazy— And murdered doing his job. Murdered in City Hall. Which, by the way, gave rise to— Dianne Feinstein. A supervisor who became mayor, Dianne Feinstein, who went on to be, you know, a very important senator. Mm-hmm. And just a great—he, to this day, there's a place near my house, like, to the block from my house,

where they have the original, he had a photography store in the Castro and you can go visit it. There's a plaque to him and where he did his business. He was a business person too, by the way, in this city. I didn't know that. Very successful business person. He had a photography store. Anyway, thank you, Scott. God, Scott, you are amazing.

What is happening? What is happening? We're switching roles here. It's really interesting. I'll start telling penis jokes and everything else. I'm moving to San Francisco. You are. You're going to move to my house. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. A reminder, we have another live call-in show coming up. Call or email us and let us know what you'd like to ask us and make it spicy. We like spicy.

Elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe, this week on On with Kara Swisher, I spoke to NPR CEO Catherine Marr. Let's listen to a clip of her discussing NPR's lawsuit against the Trump administration. My concern is that this makes us feel as though we are in some way in an adversarial posture to the administration.

which is not the intent. - Well, that's what a lawsuit is, right? - Well, it is, but it's an adversarial posture in response to an adversarial action. And that adversarial action is one that we believe to be unconstitutional. So, I mean, if anything, I would say it's our patriotic responsibility to defend the First Amendment as a media organization.

She was really impressive. She's from tech. She ran Wikimedia. She's terrific and really it's a great interview. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Vivid. And be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Scott, read us out. Today's show is produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kevin Oliver. Ernie and her Todd entered in this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Mia Severio,

and Dan Shalon. Nishat Kharwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. This isn't law and order. It's fascism foreplay. You don't need troops in the streets. You need leaders with spines and policies that don't

read like rejected plot lines from The Man in the High Castle. What's going on here has nothing to do with patriotism, it has everything to do with authoritarianism.