Are RFK Jr. & MAHA Coming for Your Vaccine?
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Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. For our Sunday show this week, we're going to do a deep dive into Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the Make America Healthy Again movement, and the dangerous changes to vaccine policy happening right now.

While Trump's illegal deportations, unconstitutional airstrikes, and crypto scams get most of the attention, RFK Jr. is quietly dismantling the public health infrastructure that Americans have depended on for decades. These changes and the rise of the MAHA movement are having a profound and dangerous effect on our science and our politics. My guest this week is someone who's been keeping tabs on MAHA and RFK Jr. since the very beginning.

Dr. Caitlin Gedalina began writing the Substack, your local epidemiologist in the early days of the COVID pandemic, and it's now the platform's top science newsletter. She's an epidemiologist and data scientist and the co-host of the America Dissected podcast with former Crooked collaborator, Dr. Abdul El-Sayed. I invited her on the show to discuss what this movement is, why it's resonating with so many people, whether there's anything we can do to stop it. Caitlin Gedalina, welcome to Pod Save America. Thank you for having me. I'm honored to be here.

I have so much I want to talk to you about. I have been thinking and worrying about what's happening with RFK Jr. and HHS and the Maha movement and vaccines for a long time. So we have a lot to get to. But I want to start with this week's meeting of the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices.

the committee that sets vaccine policy in this country. Before we get into the specifics of this meeting, can you just level set here on what that committee does, the role it plays, and the changes that RFK Jr. has made to that committee that are concerning to so many? Yeah.

Yeah, sure. So it's called ACIP, Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices. And it's basically an external committee of typically experts in vaccinology, pediatrics, medicine, epidemiology. I mean, you name it. And it plays a really important role in the way we get vaccines and medical products from

you know, clinical trials all the way into people's arms and access. And so this is just one step in a really robust and

I guess I'm saying this all before of everything that's changed, but usually- Was robust, yes. Yeah, thank you. Was robust and grounded in evidence and very clear and really a well-oiled machine. And so their role in this process, so FDA first decides if a vaccine is safe and effective. That's basically the two questions they're answering.

And then it goes to ACIP, which is the advisory committee for CDC, and they basically decide. Also, they look at the evidence if it's safe and effective, but more importantly, the policy. Who gets these vaccines? When? At what schedule? Where? Who's at high risk? Et cetera. And then it gets signed by the CDC director, and then it becomes available to us.

So what's happened in these past, I can't believe it's only been like two weeks, is that RFK Jr. all of a sudden completely gutted ACIP. They were 17 members, really highly qualified for policy decision-making around vaccines and basically handpicked eight people for their replacement. And these people that were replaced, uh,

people that all the way from have no experience whatsoever in vaccines, all the way to anti-vaxxers, some COVID contrarians, and really a mixed bag of wild people that are ultimately making decisions for 330 million Americans based on vaccines.

This was always kind of a worry of ours in public health. The Health and Human Services Secretary has a number of levers to influence vaccine policy and uptake and access. This was a huge red line that RFK Jr. crossed and is very concerning.

The original 17 people who were on the committee, were they appointed by the Biden administration? Are they longstanding? Because you can look at this in one way, which is when a new president, new administration of a new party comes in, there are a whole bunch of people who are in the government who are political appointees or they're on boards and commissions. They resign and they get replaced by people who are more ideologically aligned with the new administration. That's not typically what happens here though, right?

Well, you know, I'll be honest. The ACIP appointments have always been somewhat opaque, but usually you're right. I mean, the appointments last for about four years. Biden administration, I think they put eight of those last 17 members in there because that just is what, you know, those terms end. Yeah, it's just there's a turnover. And historically, I'll be honest, this process has been grounded in

a nonpartisan belief system, right? That vaccine policy should be shaped by science and experience and diverse perspectives, not ideology. And that hasn't changed for the past 70 years, whether it's a Republican or Democrat administration.

So, yeah, these appointments change over time, but it's never been based on necessarily ideology like it has. It's never been just this sweeping gutting of it. And the process in which this has happened has been incredibly swift and obviously been planned for a couple months to execute very quickly.

One of the critiques you hear from people in the Maha movement, the RFK sort of junior acolytes about ACIP and some of these other committees that advise FDA, CDC, HHS, is that their ties are too close to pharma, right? The people who profit from these vaccines. What is the real truth there? Are there any legitimate, even grounded in the conspiracy theories of it, is there any legitimate concerns there?

I mean, I think it's a great point, right? Like we don't want people making policy decisions if they have a conflict of interest in pharma stock. I mean, I think that's completely legitimate. The thing that has been missing though, is that these committees go through incredibly rigorous conflicts of interest vetting. And what's even more interesting to me is that

RFK Jr. himself reaffirmed this process after he called for a full review of that ACIP, the last one's committee's disclosures, and nothing was found. I think a few people got like $3,000 here and there, but nothing, no smoking guns that were used.

insinuated and no systemic evidence of undue pharmaceutical influence on these members. I do find it highly

hypocritical because this new ACIP membership, also, sure, they don't have the typical pharmaceutical conflicts of interest, but we can't ignore that there's other conflicts of interest out there, including selling of supplements, anti-vaccine advocacy groups, making millions off of vaccine litigation trials, and none of that's been disclosed.

And some of these people, they are proudly anti-vax, right? Like they have described themselves as that, right? This is not the pro-vaccine people ascribing people who may have questions as phony, but these people have called themselves anti-vax, right? That's right. I mean, even one of the members right after, like a week or two ago, Robert Malone, who we've always known as very anti-vax, he writes about it all the time, came out on Twitter and said,

But everyone says anti-vax is a bad thing. I'm proud of it, and I'm excited to serve on this committee. I mean, they're not even hiding it. It's just the next level to watch unfold. This movement here, it's in violation, at least, of the spirit of what RFK Jr. probably promised during his confirmation hearings, right? He got a lot of questions about how he's going to handle vaccines, that science would lead it, the process would not be upended. But this is the upending of the process, right? Oh, completely. Yeah.

I mean, and it's not a surprise, right, to all of us in public health that are very familiar with RFK. I mean, he's had a 20, 30-year history of ignoring evidence around vaccines and even – and sowing doubt in them. I mean, he founded Children's Health Defense, which is an anti-vax advocacy group that makes millions. And –

And so I guess this was not a surprise, but you're right. He did promise to Cassidy, who is the chair of the HELP committee, that he wouldn't upend ACIP, and he ended up doing it anyways. You know, Cassidy got played, and I don't think there's ever been a question of what the intent is from RFK and vaccines. Yeah.

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So let's talk about what happened at the meeting this week. It took place Thursday and Friday. There were a number of items on the docket, including the flu vaccine, RSV, a couple of things. Tell us what happened there.

Oh, it was exhausting to watch. I mean, it was basically watching a fox in the hen house or foxes in the hen house. You know, it followed the usual format. So if you just tuned in, it looked really legit. And some of it was, right? CDC scientists presented data and CDC scientists demonstrated really high competence, thorough, thoughtful, well-prepared, listened to questions, answered questions.

But this new committee, I mean, it was just clear there are not vaccine experts. They questioned basic epidemiological methods. We tallied, my team tallied more than 50 falsehoods around vaccines mentioned in two days. It was very clear that with some of the decisions made like around thimerosal and flu vaccines that they

They began with conclusions and then attempted to force evidence to fit it. We call this policy-based evidence-making, not evidence-based policy-making. And so it was wild to watch. I mean, it was sobering. I don't even know what the word is. And it really put into question what's going to happen. How does the health ecosystem function?

broader health ecosystem really step in to fill this gap? What are the legal implications, not only to our fall vaccines, but routine vaccines later on? I mean, it opened up, quite frankly, a lot of concern on my side. So what were the decisions they made? The most notable one involves thimerosal. Can you talk about that?

Right. So thimerosal is in some of our flu shots. It is used across the globe and it is a preservative within our vaccines. It basically makes sure that the vaccine formula doesn't have bacteria. It's really helpful.

But this committee, based on falsehoods, voted to not recommend thimerosal flu vaccines, which means that they won't be given this fall. Now, this isn't that big of a deal. About 4% to 7% of our supply has thimerosal flu vaccines. So I'm not

concerned about the supply. I'm much more concerned about the groundwork in which they did and how this is going to apply in the future to other vaccines like Hep B or HPV or measles vaccine, for example. I'm also very concerned about the ripple effects that we'll have on the global community, given that a lot of vaccines out there include thimerosal because it is safe. There's

And then there's also possible implications on pandemic preparedness, biosecurity risk, and the need to use this in future vaccines. And so overall, not a big deal, but does lay the groundwork. On thimerosal, thimerosal has been part of a long-running conspiracy theory tying it to autism, correctly?

Yeah, it is. And there's no evidence to support that. We would be very clear on that, yes. Correct. It's very safe. And it is based on basically in the mid-1990s, we didn't know too much about the toxicity. And so we actually removed thimerosal from the vaccines out of precaution. But since then, there's been so many studies that demonstrated that it's very safe, especially at the levels used in vaccines.

Okay, and now on to the other decisions made. Okay, other ones. The other decision was RSV, that we were going to have RSV protection. In fact, we are going to have another monoclonal antibody for infants for RSV. And this is not a vaccine, but it basically gives us antibodies or gives our infants antibodies to protect against RSV.

Interestingly, there was not a vote for COVID vaccines, and that is definitely not normal, and we need recommendations for fall. And so it leaves huge questions around what will be available to who and when this fall for COVID vaccines. Interesting.

And so what does that mean in practice? If they never vote on it, will that mean there will be no COVID vaccines? How does that work exactly? I know we've never been down this road before, so you're speculating. Well, that's the big question, right? So, I mean, we know right now that manufacturers are making vaccines and they're based on last year's formula, not this year's formula, because FDA now says we have to do placebo controls that are not feasible and unethical, whatever. But they're making them.

The question is eligibility. And the reason that's a big question is because in July, in a few weeks, physicians and hospital systems need to order these vaccines. These vaccines then need to be distributed. Then the public needs to be, have an expectation of what to get where. The physicians need to be educated. And so there's, there's this, um,

The insurers, we need to know if insurers are going to cover it, right? Because usually insurers only cover what ACIP recommends. And so there's this domino effect of what happens after a June ACIP meeting in regards to fall. And there's just, there's so many unanswered questions. I'm not sure how this plays out.

I do think what's going to happen is we're going to see the formation of professional societies like American Academy of Pediatrics make recommendations and maybe even like a shadow ACIP to help fill this vacuum and get the fleet moving in the same direction. But I mean, time's a ticking and lives are on the stake. It's like there are so many interests that are in conflict here, right? Where you have... So it's like you have these...

Pharma has made these vaccines, right? And they want to sell them. Correct. We have insurance, which may not want to cover them because... And so it's just like, it's very... We're obviously into the sort of very dangerous uncharted waters. When does the committee meet again? Do they meet every month? October. They meet three times a year. So we will be...

into flu and potentially COVID. Like the typical time, if I recall my many COVID shots I've had over the last five years here, we usually get the boosters in the fall, right? Like I think I get mine with the same time as my flu shot every year, right? Correct, yeah, yeah. And so it'll be October before they could even make a decision. So it's possible everything's on hold till then.

Oh, October, they won't even make a decision. They're on to the next thing. They'll be talking about measles and vaccine schedules and everything in October. And so this was the meeting for that. And that's why there's a lot of confusion. And that's why the broader health ecosystem needs to step up. They need to find courage. They need to coordinate and have a united front to make sure that Americans have the confidence to make informed decisions. But they did approve the flu vaccine, right?

Yes. So what's, yeah, flu, RSV, I would say are guaranteed for, and everyone over six months or whatever, the eligibility is there and you need to get protected. COVID is the big question.

I mean, it seems like a pretty giant deal that the committee just took. I mean, I know a lot's happening in the world. That's one of the reasons I want to have this conversation is that there's so much happening around all the other stuff Trump's doing. We're bombing Iran. There's these deportations. They're all huge deals. And right underneath the surface, there's massive changes happening to how public health is done in this country with real-world implications to every person. And it doesn't get the attention. In a different environment...

The committee filled with anti-vaxxers taking a pass on even considering the COVID booster when we've done it for every year since the pandemic seems kind of crazy to me.

It is crazy. And you're right. I do think it's going below the surface. I mean, I try with my newsletter not to. You're doing everything you can. I know. I know. That's why we're having this conversation. Yes. Yeah. And there's a lot that people have to pay attention to. It's a magnetic storm and it's exhausting to keep up with everything. But it's our job in public health to keep really close tabs on this. And it's very concerning how it's unfolding right now.

Does ACIP have to make recommendations on other longstanding vaccines? The one I'm thinking about most is MMR, the measles vaccine.

I understand every year they're going to approve or not approve these new things that are coming up or new vaccines that come on the market. I'm not even going to get into what happens if we have another pandemic and they have to approve vaccines. But we're in the middle of this measles outbreak. RFK Jr. and others have spread misinformation about the measles vaccine and how to deal with measles. In a normal world, would the committee weigh in and tell people to go get a measles booster or how would that work?

Right. So and this is what I actually think was the most concerning about this ACIP meeting this week was watching them start to lay the groundwork for routine vaccinations. In fact, the ACIP chair announced two work groups that are going to look into the routine childhood vaccination schedule today.

And they're going to revisit vaccines that like hepatitis B and HPV and MMR vaccines. And so while they're very safe, they're very effective, I can kind of see where we in public health see where this is going and incredibly concerned about the future of routine vaccinations. I think one question, like you have a bunch of people

you know, now on this committee or this, this minority in the Maha movement or the anti-vax movement who have concerns about vaccines. And now you have people who have always believed in vaccines, who vaccinate their kids on schedule, who's got the COVID vaccine, get their boosters. And now we have these questions potentially of a bunch of anti-vax cranks looking at our vaccines. Like what, like you say in here that FDA are the ones who ensure the safety and efficacy. Like what,

How much fear should there be that an RFK Jr. FDA is not, you know, even one gutted by Elon Musk and Doge, is not doing that part of the process, right? So you have, someone's got to test it, make sure it's right, and then you've got a bunch of people who's got to approve it. How do we feel about the process in the testing and efficacy part?

All of this is like a checks and balances movement. And so with FDA, the interesting thing about FDA is you have counterbalances that have huge lobbyists, right? We're talking about like pharma and like stepping up. And so I think that if FDA did something shady – because usually in these FDA meetings, pharma companies –

present the data and then FDA scientists present the data. And the assumption is that they match because that means that everyone's working in honesty. I think when they start not matching, you're going to hear an uproar from pharma. Give what you care about pharma companies, at least there's some sort of balance there. The challenge with CDC is there is no like

counterbalance there. There's like not a lobbyist, I guess, that is like going to come out and be very angry that these policies are not recommended. And so like, I think,

I'm a little less concerned with FDA than I am with CDC just because of that point. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's how I'm thinking about it. I mean, like, I don't want to trust Big Pharma. I know. But they do have a strong – if you believe that the problem with Big Pharma is that they want to make money above all else, they do have a strong financial interest in having effective –

and safe vaccines, right? Like if they don't, that's bad business if what they care about is business. But like this is, I guess this is sort of the end result of what the anti-vax people want is they want to raise questions and all these things, right? To be able to, like you can see, like you mentioned, they're going to get to the schedules. It's one of the things you hear more

When you're a parent of a young child, like really I'm supposed to stick my kid with all of these vaccines at one time on one day and there's science for why you do it. But if they start raising questions about that, they're feeding doubt into the system and that can metastasize over time. Oh my God, yeah. And you know what? Like I think we need to ground ourselves and I try to like think about this often, like

95% of people agree with vaccines. When was the last time that many Americans agreed on something? And so what I'm very concerned about is that the very minority representation is now, one, making these decisions, but also have this huge...

megaphone around this sort of stuff. And it's going to start chipping away at that 90 plus percent of Americans. I'm very concerned about that. So yeah, we'll see how this plays out. We'll see. The last thing on vaccines here is RFK Jr. announced that the US was no longer going to contribute to the global Gavi, the global vaccine compact. Talk a little about what that means for the world.

Yeah, it's incredible. So incredibly bad. So Gavi is this international collaboration that provides vaccines to half of the world's children. I mean, we're talking about a ton of people here.

And Gavi just had a meeting this week where they basically plan for financial – it's financial planning for the next five years. And RFK comes. He recorded a video and Gavi played it. And it basically said that U.S. is removing its commitment to Gavi because of – and he just started spouting off anti-vax falsehoods.

And so it wasn't necessarily about efficiency of the budget. It was literally anti-vax. And so it's going to create this huge hole. I mean, we've saved billions of lives across the globe because of Gavi. The whole reason we needed Gavi was because

there was a huge market gap for pharmaceutical companies because there wasn't really a market in low to middle income countries because they didn't have the money to pay for vaccines. And so it's, I don't know,

I don't know. I don't even know how to say it. I mean, we're going to lose lives to this. It is cruel. It's cruel. And it's also, I think it's important that it's also already congressionally appropriated funds through 2030, first of all. And HHS doesn't even control those funds. It's through the State Department. So again, another example of just completely disregarding processes and lives will be lost because of it.

And even like I'm of the view and call me a bleeding heart liberal here that we that saving children's lives around the world is like an ending of itself. But even if you were to say, I only care about what happens in our borders, it matters to the U.S. that there aren't diseases spreading all around the world. Right. Like, isn't that doesn't that help? Like, that's one of the reasons why we prevent global pandemics is to make sure that there aren't measles spreading all across or smallpox spreading all across continents in the world. Right.

Right. I mean, we're a globalized world. I mean, we're just a train plane right away from any disease. And saving lives is really important to my value system, even beyond America. But if we're just thinking about America first, there is huge value in soft power around health and ensuring that other societies are healthy too. Infectious diseases, viruses,

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All right, let's pivot a little bit beyond vaccines to the MAHA movement, American America Healthy Again movement broadly, and RFK Jr.'s role in it. I mean, obviously, he is someone who is proudly anti-vax. He has come to great national attention and in some parts of the country, infamy for that position. But can you talk a little bit about his role and how he got here? Right. So yeah, he's always been kind of in this space of...

And, you know, it's really interesting. Environmentalism. Environmental and, yeah, anti-vaccine. But he's always been on the left, which I think is fascinating. But what we've seen over the past year, and this is what is interesting, is that this movement really came out of nowhere, maha, and really fast.

As you know, Dan, there was a big movement back in 2010 with Michelle Obama around healthier eating, childhood obesity, blah, blah, blah. That was completely shut down by Republicans saying we're the nanny state. You can't take away my ultra processed foods.

This movement really came out of nowhere. There's this huge groundswell of support. And for us in public health, we were like at first, we're like, all right, here we go. Like, let's do prevention. Let's prevent chronic diseases. Let's fix the health care system. But then you start peeling off the branding and knowing RFK Jr.'s history and you start looking at the details and solutions and Maha really starts losing me and other public health colleagues.

So yeah, I mean, RFK really created this grassroots movement and then hitched it to MAGA. And that's where we are today. Yeah, I understand that.

And this is something that would be clipped socially, it would come back to haunt me, but I sort of understand the appeal of part of the Maha movement. I live in the Bay Area. I do too. I'm a parent of young kids. I read Omnivore's Dilemma 20 years ago. I'm worried about the food system. I saw Michelle Obama plant a garden and talk about all these things and sugar and everything in our diet. My wife and I spend a lot of time thinking about what are the healthy snacks for our kids? Should we serve them?

You know, food in glass as opposed to plastic and BP. Like we think about all of that and, you know, and because we have young kids in the area, like it's something that is like talked about all the time. I can't tell you how much the local first grade parents WhatsApp chain has blown up about the cinnamon rolls at free breakfast in the California public schools right now. Like people like we're very into this. And so you can, but you can see.

And because of that, I can see how the pipeline works. It starts with, oh, here are the healthy snacks for kids. Here's the recipes you should make. Here's the chemical-free sunscreens or whatever else. To all of a sudden, and I'm going to get to some of these specifics, the dangers of seed oils, fluoride, all of those things. Red dyes.

Red dye, red dyes, right? There's so much discussion about red dyes. Then you get to the vaccine stuff. And so this pipeline has been created. And like, as you say, not everyone in the Maha movement is anti-vax, right? You're talking about 95% of people agreeing. And so you have a bunch of people who are on board with RFK Jr.,

For all the, and this whole movement, this idea for all the stuff that gets up to Vax, maybe they're going to get moved to an anti-vax, but you should start asking questions around it. But it's the other stuff. And I think we, as like people, my like political positions, like myself can get into a dangerous place when you dismiss all the other concerns, not the solutions offered by Maha, but the concerns as a bunch of anti-vax cranks.

But I want to go through some of the specifics because I have an actual scientist with me today on some of these things they're concerned about. And I want to start with seed oils, okay? Which is like, I can't tell you how much seed oil content I see on Instagram and TikTok and the dangers of it. What does the science say about whether seed oils are bad for you or worse for you than other oils? Right. So seed oils are...

Just to back up a little, they are... Yeah, describe seed oils. Because most people say the word seed oil, don't know what it means, but yes. Yeah, they're extracted from, I mean, the seeds of plants, like soybeans and canola and corn and sunflower and grape seeds. And this is in contrast to oils like olive or avocado oil that are extracted from fruits. But you're right. I mean, there's been this recent...

around seed oils. And the reality is that they are part of a healthy diet. I mean, seed oils are protectors

particularly high in this thing called polyunsaturated fats, which are important for heart health and cell function and metabolism and immune regulation. And our bodies can't make it on its own. We have to get it from food. And seed oils are a really important part of that. We've had huge studies showing the importance on heart health, for example.

But you're right. There's been a recent backlash, right? Critics have called seed oils toxic or poisonous and even blame them on the chronic, the rise of chronic disease we've seen in the United States. And it's really based on conflicting evidence. Correlation doesn't equal causation.

Some just plain out rumors. Also, there's a lot of money in this that I don't think we can ignore, right? The wellness market profits off of fear. It's valued of over, I think, $6 trillion. And so people who demonize seed oils, for example, are also selling products that are

claim to reverse the damage or detox or seed oil alternatives or beef towel. And so a lot of this, I think, and the theme around all of these topics, whether it's seed oils or red dyes or fluoride, is that our information landscape has just dramatically changed and

It's really confusing on social media. And we've also unleashed this curiosity-driven class, which I love. People are asking really tough questions. It just means that we have to rise to that occasion.

All right, so let's talk food dyes. Like this is the one you see all the time. The argument is while there haven't been studies, there have been these – and I saw the interview with the head of the FDA in Megyn Kelly recently where he – Megyn Kelly was very concerned that she was going to make a birthday cake for her daughter that had – and she looked at the icing and it had all these red dyes in it. And then the FDA head went on this long thing about the dangers of dyes and that although there weren't studies on it per se, there's a lot of anecdotal evidence of parents who took their kids off dyes.

You hear all the time, the dyes we use in America are banned in Europe. If you buy Froot Loops here and Froot Loops in Canada, they look very different because of the dye. So it's like, what is the reality about the dyes we use compared to the other countries? And what are the risks of dyes at all? Because I mean, they're being banned in states across the country. Even here in California, Governor Newsom signed a bill that did it in school lunches, I believe. But it's like, what's the reality here?

Yeah, first of all, the reality is contrary to popular belief, a lot of these dyes are allowed in Europe. They are not banned in Europe. They just have different names, right? They have different names. I'm like, guys, come on. Like, what's...

Let's start. Anyways, so they have different names. So first of all, yeah, it's not banned in Europe. There has been some like rat studies that have looked at red dyes. When we look at it in human studies, at the dose, we usually get it. There's certainly, there has no harm around it. You know, with substances, dose is the toxin. I mean, water can be toxic if we have enough of it.

And, you know, I think fine. If you want to take out red dye is fine. But like candy is also still candy at the end of the day. And I also think that with this red dye discussion and honestly a lot with Maha with this individualistic approach, it fails to look at the tradeoffs at a population level. Yeah.

And it'll be interesting to see what those tradeoffs are for red dyes. But natural colors are more expensive to make. They're less consistent and they have less shelf life, which means higher food costs and potentially more food waste. And so there's a tradeoff for people that can't afford these very expensive foods. And we are really...

Losing, what is the saying? The forest for the trees. Forest for the trees, yeah. Right, because there are huge changes that need to be made to our food systems. Red dye is like the small, it's like going to be turning our wheels to fix the chronic health problems. We're not tackling these root causes, which-

It's frustrating to see. So there would probably be no health downside to switching to beet juice for red dye. I think that's the natural alternative. But the argument against would be, I guess, I'm going to kind of just drill down this. One, food costs would go up.

So that's one of the reasons why we have these dyes and these chemicals. They would spoil more. And ultimately, the big thing is we're not focused on the things. Like we should be getting kids to eat less candy, period, not less candy with dye is sort of the way you'd say it. Right. And like food deserts and food insecurity and industry influence and like all of these big things that really impact behavior, right?

And I don't think this is it. I think the other interesting thing is, yeah, you're right with shelf life and making it more expensive. Also, it's important to know some people are allergic to beets, right? So some of these natural colors may pose an individual risk with food allergies too. So there's important implications, but like we need to step back. And if we're really going to move this needle in the United States for health.

So let's do fluoride now. The state of Utah has now banned adding fluoride to public drinking water. I mean, really for most of my life, when you've ever heard anyone talking about fluoride in the water, it was like a real sign that they were a kook, right? Like you would cross the street if someone was to the other side of the street if they're talking about fluoride. And now it's becoming public policy. What is the truth here, especially given how much fluoride we get in our toothpaste and all of that?

Yeah. So fluoride is really important for our teeth. Uh, this is why toothpaste contains fluoride, why dentists apply it to us directly. I think the question that's being debated right now is whether we should add it to our public water supplies. This, we started adding fluoride in the mid 1900s, uh, because, uh,

And it really helped decrease cavities, like an incredible amount. I think that once, you know, we've started introducing fluoride in toothpaste, the benefit is definitely more modest. Like, let's be honest with that, right? Like, it's especially...

Well, I'll get to that in a little, but it's definitely more modest, but there still shows clear improvement. For example, we've had case studies like in Calgary, they banned fluoride in just five years. Cavities increased almost twofold and use of antibiotics increased eightfold due to bacteria in teeth. And they ended up putting it back in fluoride in 2021. So we still see it's important.

But what's even more important is that, and this is where public health comes in, is that the public water system reaches everyone equally. And so fluoridation mitigates the impact of disparities and access to dental care in the United States.

Low-income families struggle to, one, find dentists that take their insurance like Medicaid. If they have insurance at all, right? If they have insurance at all. There's definitely dentist deserts, right? So access is an issue. And even going beyond cavities, poor dentition can be a source of stigma for our kids in schools. Right.

And I think that this really highlights what public health is, is that it's an invisible intervention. You don't really think about it much. It's incredibly safe at the doses we receive, and it benefits the most vulnerable. And so when we remove fluoride, me and San Diego and my kids are going to be just fine. We go to the dentist. We can afford toothpaste.

But what I'm very concerned about is the health disparities gap is just going to increase and increase. And that has major implications for Americans. Would you say in all the concerns we have about our water in this country, fluoride is low on the list, right? Like between pollution and chemicals. It's so low on the list. This is sort of the point here, right? Which is like what we're bringing, this is what I think one of the dangers of the Maha movement, because it's taking a legitimate, legitimate concerns of,

about health, a broken food system, trying to feed a family on a limited budget or what they're fed at school, right? It's like you want to do that, but then the answers are not answering the real problems and they're kind of distracting from the real things that we should be addressing, right? It's totally true. And that's what's so confusing with this Maha movement. I mean, Dana, you mentioned you're totally –

for some of these things, and I am too. But it's mixing really reasonable statements with one, outright falsehoods, but also too, just like not the solution which will keep our wheels spinning, right? There are distractions or misdiagnoses, and we don't have time.

have time, right? Like our health isn't great in the United States, right? We need to do things better and it's hard to watch. More from my conversation with Caitlyn Gentilina after this break, but first some housekeeping. If you like Positive America, you'll love my newsletter, The Message Box, which dives deep into what's happening in our politics, how Democrats can return to power and has actionable ideas on how each and every one of us can do our part to defeat MAGA

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So you've done something that not a lot of people do, which is you've actually engaged with members of the Maha movement, not just by seeing their content on Instagram. You've actually met with them. Can you talk a little about how those conversations came to be and what you learned from them? I did. I

was invited. A good friend, Brenda Akari, was the executive producer for Jon Stewart, but also co-hosts a podcast, Why Should I Trust You? And invited a couple of us in public health to meet with Maha Grassroots. And I'll be honest, like,

At first, I was like, hell no. Like, they are in the middle of this destruction that I'm seeing with public health. No way. But I ended up going. I went in after a lot of wrestling with a goal of about 75% listening and 25% speaking my truth. And we've met a couple times since that first time, been doing texts. And I'll be honest, like, that first conversation was one of the most raw, honest,

honest and important conversation I think I've ever had in my professional career. I learned a lot about the Maha movement, what drives them to do this, how they view life. I was able to tell my truth as well, like slashing Medicaid is not going to help make America healthy again.

And these have turned over time into relationships and where we can learn from each other. We can agree to disagree. But also what I've also seen is that we can partner on things that I agree with, that we have common ground. And it's been a fascinating journey. I'll say that. What did you learn about how someone, about how they ended up in this place? What are the values that drive them there?

Yeah, you know, we were talking about this earlier, but Maha is not a monolith, right? It's a very eclectic group of people. You have Democrats, you have Republicans, you have independents, you have anti-vaxxers, you have pro-vaxxers. I mean, it's a huge group. But what I learned was a common theme is that everyone,

Everyone in this room has had a story of heartbreak, betrayal, and mistrust from the health system, whether it was a mom caring for an adult with autism or a family ripped apart from the opioid epidemic or a small business owner that had to survive pandemic shutdowns. They were lived experiences, right? They're painful. They're messy. They're very human. And

what matters the most to them is that these systems that were built to protect people didn't show up for them when they needed it. And so they are going to other sources and other voices that see that and respond to that. Um,

The other really interesting thing I learned, and I was genuinely surprised about this, was that some of the members acknowledged that hitching their movement to the broader MAGA movement was a risky bet and actually very much grappling with those consequences right now, right? Because there are cuts to research on diabetes or food access or maternal health, and it's really hurting their ability to make progress.

And so while they're all very supportive of Kennedy's vision, I think some believe that blind allegiance to MAGA is hindering their development of solutions. And I say, yes, it is. So, you know, yeah, I've learned a lot. And these these discussions have been incredible.

That was one of the things that I've been very curious about. Because you can look, if you take everything that these folks believe in good faith, right? And you can see like RFK Jr. saying what they want to hear on food dyes and processed foods. And then if you are anti-vax, obviously he's doing exactly what you want, much to the detriment of the country and the world. But then everything outside of HHS is doing the opposite of what Maha wants, right? Like we're talking about seed oils. I've got to stop seed oils.

The top lobbyist for the Seed Oil Association has a senior role at the Department of Ag. Everyone is so worried about glyphosates, right? The herbicide used in Roundup and then in getting that out of our food and it shows up in our fruit and vegetables, whatever else. And you have the EPA cutting the regulations that would govern and prevent these chemicals from getting in our food and water.

I mean, all the regulations that Obama and Biden put in about clean air, clean water getting gutted. And then if you care just like healthy food, they've gutted the program. They've ended the program that helps schools buy food from local farms. Farmers from USDA. Yeah. And I'm just very curious if they're like how aware they are of that tension and whether it makes them – I'm glad to know you see that there are some –

But like how aware are they of that stuff? And I guess the other question is like maybe the leaders are aware, but I'm assuming maybe the members of the movement, not the ones who are like showing up at meetings, but who now identify in Maha and have these concerns are even aware of that stuff.

Yeah, I mean, you know, I think that they're definitely aware, I will say, very aware of Medicaid cuts. They're very concerned about that, as they should be. Very aware of SNAP benefits being cut for 2 million kids that rely on this for food. And so, you know, I think that they are aware of some of that. They're not aware, I'll be honest, about other things that I've tried to keep them up to date on, like cutting clinical trials for diabetes or cancer research, etc.

Because like we said at the top of the hour, there's just so much to pay attention to. I think the ultimate question they come to answer is, are we making more progress within MAGA than when we wouldn't have been through there? And what their conclusion is, is yes, is that even though we've hitched our wagon to this, we're still doing some important work and that was better than before. And I think that they hang their hat on that.

You brought up Michelle Obama, her healthy food initiatives when she was first lady and I worked at the White House. And when I put on my quasi-retired political strategist hat and I look at this and I'm like, these are – the people who have these concerns are people who –

used to be Democratic voters, right? I'm not getting into the core anti-vaxxers, even though a lot of people were on the left pre-COVID. But the people who really are worried about broken food system, worried about clean air and clean water, how you feed your healthy kids. And I always think about Vani Hari, who for people who don't know is someone known as Food Babe, who is probably the most influential food influencer. She's become a leader in the Maha movement. She sat behind RFK Jr. during his confirmation hearings.

She was an Obama delegate in 2012. Oh, I didn't know that. And like at some point, yes, and had volunteered on the campaign in 08, like a true blue Democrat. And she was doing food influencing back then. She started Food Babe in 2011. And like at some point, the Democratic Party lost these people. Do you have any sense or theories about how that happened or how we could communicate with them better?

I mean, I think that the larger Democratic Party, now we'll get into just politics, but has lost the thread and is not responsive to the needs on the ground. I think a lot of what Democrats in public health, I'll just say, hear and sound like is defending the status quo. And

and people aren't, the status quo isn't good, right? We're very sick. We have these profit-led health systems and people are done with it. And so I do hope that people see this groundswell, that they listen to these concerns and provide alternatives to RFK Jr. I'll say, I think, you

Through these discussions with Maha, one of the most hopeful things is I've seen a ton of opportunity, that there's these huge fractures between Maha and MAGA. Well, guess who else cares about making Americans healthy? It's public health. It's Democrats. And so what is the strategy for that? I mean, one example is I'm surprised no political party has taken up health care costs.

And I think that's a huge opportunity right now to gain a groundswell, to create a movement and to push us forward to a better health care system. So I guess that, I mean, I think that people move because people weren't being listened to. Or being spoken to, I think, in this case. Spoken to or spoken with, right? Like engaged. Yeah, exactly.

It is like RFK Jr., long before he was running for president and then becoming agent secretary, was omnipresent in the wellness space. He's talking to Mark Hyman. He's on all the podcasts. He's talking to Vani Hari. He's doing all these things. And there was no –

democratic voice there. From 2008 to 2012, you had Michelle Obama. She was doing those things. It was easier in that information ecosystem that if the first lady of the United States was talking about these things that everyone in the world would hear about it because it worked. But now we're all in these information bubbles and these interests a lot. The way I was thinking about this from a communication perspective is

We now, because of the way Instagram and TikTok and YouTube work, like the world's on an interest graph, like it's what you're interested in is going to send you down a path. And so the people who are opting into wellness and health and that sort of stuff are not people that we have been – we have not been going – Democrats have not been going into those spaces to speak to those people. And so conspiracy theorists love a vacuum, right? Yeah.

And there is a vacuum. I mean, there's a clear vacuum. And you're right. I think that largely Democrats have this top-down approach to communication where information flows linearly. We are the experts in the ivory towers, blah, blah, blah. What Republicans do and Maha does incredibly well is this bottom-up approach, is you talk to people, you activate networks, you meet their needs, and...

People love that. And I don't, I love that. Like, I wouldn't, I don't blame them for that. But like, let's do it in an evidence-based way where we really need to step up.

Have you thought about, you know, from a public health perspective, right? Like I come at it from a political persuasion perspective. How do we get these voters back? How do we persuade them about what, you know, what Trump and RFK Jr. are doing is wrong. But like ultimately we have to communicate, you know, it's the role of the job of public health to communicate people how to keep their family safe, what vaccines to take. Have you thought about if the Maha movement taught you anything about how the public health world should communicate differently with the public?

Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean, I've, I've been on this adventure the past five years just doing my newsletter. I've like learned a ton about this, but, um, you're right. You know, I, it's, there's a value of nuance, right? Never underestimate the public. They want to know, um,

What mRNA is, what red dyes are, and if they're safe. I think there's huge power in trusted messengers. So how do we start engaging physicians and librarians and whoever that people get their information and trust also? There's this importance of meeting people where they're at.

And there's – the thing I think we're missing the most is creativity needed to develop these two-way streets like with Maha Group. In these Maha discussions after I was like, hey, can you guys help me just look over my FAQs around routine vaccinations? And they sent me back this incredible feedback and –

It was, and even better, and I was like, I integrated their feedback, and they wanted an added question answered. And I just sent it back saying, so thank you so much for doing these routine vaccination questions. And they're like, no problem. We sent this out into the entire Maha network. And so there's this value of engagement and co-developing and the idea that curiosity can be a bridge. And

And I hope that public health, not hope, public health needs to learn that as quickly as possible. The Democratic Party needs to learn that as quickly as possible. Or there's going to be continue to be a void as well as that's just how communities thrive. And we need to empower individuals at this moment.

Do you think this group would be open to talking with someone like a Democrat, like Cory Booker, who's a vegan and has talked a lot about our broken food system in a lot of ways, would think they would want to engage with someone like that?

Yeah. I mean, I think that what I have heard them say, to me at least, is everyone treats Maha like they're radioactive. And so I think that there's really opportunity. I mean, I'll be honest, they're kind of radioactive in some things, but like there's other things that it's really worth engaging on. And we've seen that. I mean, they've started talking to other public health leaders around Medicaid. We're partnering with

with nutrition, we're partnering with toxic water. And so it's happening. I think it just matters of everyone, you know, take a deep breath. Like, let's, let's try to find that common ground and work from there.

Last question for you. We're having this conversation because I'm sort of obsessed with the wellness to Mahatma Maga pipeline, how we get these people back, the Vonnie Hari Obama delegate to RFK Jr. surrogate thing haunts me in my brain. How did we lose that person? We should not be losing Obama delegates to become RFK Jr. acolytes. But one of the things is that I would hope that as Democrats move forward, we would come up with a

Our version of a Maha agenda, like what we would go to these people, go to just – it's not just the people who self-ID as Maha, but like just people who have legitimate concerns about our food system, chronic disease in this country, worry about their parents, their kids, etc.,

In addition to health care costs, are there other things you think that Democrats should be talking about that would be persuasive but also more effective than these sort of obsessions with seed oils and red dyes and those sorts of things? We need to provide an alternative path. I mean, it's that simple. I mean, what is our plan, right? Our plan is not to go back to 2024, 2019. Like, what do we want to see in the world? What is our solutions to this pandemic?

fucked up healthcare system. I've been thinking about this a lot. In fact, I don't know if I should admit this, but like I started writing like a project 2029 for health because I'm like, someone just needs to start, you know, part of this, you know, the past six months have been defense. And I'll be honest, like that defense is really important, especially in public health when it's getting destructed, but also, also,

You need an offense of like, where do we want to go? What is valuable? What are Americans saying? And meet them where they're at. And so that's just not something I've seen. And it's been quite depressing, but also it tells me why

We lose people, right? We lost people to RFK Jr. And we need to do a whole lot of work to plan ahead and try to lead down a different path that we see matches our value systems.

Well, Caitlin, thank you so much for this conversation. We started off quite scary and alarming. I think we've ended in a relatively hopeful place. As you put the finishing touches on your Project 2029 Healthy America agenda, let's talk again because I'm very fascinated in this. And this has been really a great conversation. Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me, Dan. That's our show for today. Tommy Love will be back with a brand new show in your feed on Tuesday morning.

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