Love Hurts And What's Making Us Happy
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One of the best Oscar stories of recent years was Ki-Hui Kwan winning for his performance in Everything Everywhere All at Once. Now he's the star of the new action movie Love Hurts. It has hand fighting, it has knives, it has guns, it has staple removers and pencils because let's face it, almost anything can be a weapon. And yes, it does have a romance on the side just in time for Valentine's Day.

I'm Linda Holmes, and today we're talking about Love Hurts on Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR.

Joining me today is Regina Barber. She's a host and reporter for NPR's science podcast, Shortwave. Hello, Regina. Hey, Linda. I'm so excited to do this with you. Yeah, me too. Also with us is Jeff Yang. He's a cultural critic and author of The Golden Screen, the movies that made Asian America. Hey, Jeff. Hey, Linda. So glad to finally do this with you. It is high point time.

Honor. It's an honor. It is wonderful to be doing the show with both of you. So Kiwi Kwan plays Marvin Gable, a real estate agent who has remade his life after leaving the employ of his terrifying gangster brother, Knuckles, played by Daniel Wu, but a beautiful and mysterious former associate named Rose, who once betrayed Knuckles, returns to Marvin's life and everything goes haywire. She's played by Ariana DeBose.

The film was directed by Jonathan Eusebio, who has worked as a stunt coordinator and a fight coordinator on everything from Black Panther to John Wick. Oh, wow. The movie also stars former football star Marshawn Lynch, credited here in full as Marshawn Beast Mode Lynch, as well as fun piece of trivia, one time America's Next Top Model contestant, Leo Tipton.

There is a lot going on here. We're going to talk about all of it. Regina, I think we all went into this movie as fans of Kiwi Kwan, happy about that win. Definitely. Kind of rooting for the movie. How did this land for you? Yeah, I mean, I was watching, like, clips of just him accepting awards, like, honestly, days before. Like, oh, yeah, you know, I just want him to do so well, you know? Yes.

I went in with a little maybe too high of hopes, but I will say I think he was really great through the whole thing. He was wonderful. I think the rest was kind of all over the place. Yeah. I tend to agree a little bit. Jeff, where did you come down on this one? This film should be straight down the middle of my strike zone. Mm-hmm.

I mean, everything about it, like Ki-Hoo Aek-Kwan, the fact that it is a particular kind of film with a particular kind of skills, right? Martial arts and fighting. Comedy. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

I mean, it should be kind of the perfect beast for me. And that's part of the reason I think why, for me, it's almost like the glass is like one quarter full. Sure. Every time Key is on screen, he is wonderful. And I will follow him into the fires of hell. Beautiful. But there's a lot of other stuff going on, a lot of other business that just doesn't really seem to click for me.

Yeah. Agreed. I think I had kind of the same reaction. The interesting thing is I was watching this and –

For me, my struggle was there was something going on tonally that I was having a really hard time kind of wrapping my head around. Because sometimes it plays like a comedy. It plays like an action comedy, like a fall guy or something like that. Which also is part of the DNA of this group of people who have made the John Wick movies. And these movies are all connected via a lot of behind-the-scenes talent. And...

Sometimes it was playing like that, but also then it goes into these really deeply melodramatic and feeling kind of like self-serious segments. And also, to me, there are certain kinds of violence that you can do in an action comedy. And I felt like it was somewhat transgressing those things for me. Agreed. 100%. But then I started to think about it differently and I thought, I wonder if...

I am thinking about this as an action comedy, and I should be thinking of it as a more traditional martial arts movie. Is the tonal mix that is going on here more common in martial arts movies that I haven't watched as many of? So here's the thing, right? I'm kind of a fight film nerd. I mean, it's sort of like there are two sort of schools of...

action comedy, right? One is the full-on slapstick action comedy. Like if you're... Right. If Jackie Chan is above the title, you know what you're going to get. And what you're going to get is great fighting, great stunts, lots of like...

powder blasting off people, but you're not going to see eyeballs being popped. You're not going to see this sort of like over the top. Blood. Yeah. But that's the other end of the spectrum is sort of this action comedy a la Deadpool 2 or Bullet Train or a lot of the things that these guys are associated with where the comedy is in laughing at how over the top the violence actually is. And this film, I mean, I was talking about it with my friend and podcast co-host Phil when we were coming out of the movie and

This film really does feel like there are people who are in different movies at different times in the film. Okay, that's how I felt. But I don't have the background that you do in being like a fight movie nerd. I would just say that it reminded me of like Kill Bill-esque bad dialogue scenes.

fighting gore, but the gore was too realistic. Like it was like this movie wanted to be ridiculous, but it wasn't ridiculous enough. And it was just very jarring. And it, you know, the gore wasn't like Shauna the dead gore, which is like funnier, you know? And so I think it was really jarring. My, my daughter who like is on the film track in high school in this art school, she said, um,

That they were obviously trying to parody many tropes and typical roles in action movies, but like nothing really stuck with me. Like it was just different genres like in fighting scenes. Yes. Fighting movies, fighting each other, right? Yeah. The thing is there is this entire set of sequences taking place in what is essentially a video store, which also happens to be the Big Daddy's hideout for whatever reason. Yes.

That, to me, lampshades something about the movie, which is, of course, everybody in it loves Hong Kong cinema. But at the same time, you very much feel, I mean, you mentioned Kill Bill, you very much feel what I would call QT syndrome in this film, right? Where they want to quote films, they want to sort of

Right.

But look, I'm rooting for everybody in this film. There's so much talent associated with it. There are so many reasons why it is lovable in many ways. And if maybe they had, I don't know, even just sort of like wound that down a little bit, just try to be who they were instead of trying to be something they weren't. Kind of the theme of this film. It might have landed better for me, right? Yeah. And I think, you know,

What threw me off here was some of the stuff with Kiwi Kwan is really kind of earnest in a way, which is sort of one of his sweet spots. Yes. And it's not that I didn't like that.

There's also at the same time, there are these two kind of other comic side runners going on, one of which involves, as I mentioned, Leo Tipton, the formerly of America's Next Top Model. So happy for them. But also Mustafa Shakir, who plays one of the kind of bad guys. And Leo Tipton is playing Marvin's kind of office mate. Right. So there's this kind of they meet and there's this kind of comedic scene.

between them. And it gets... That part's very silly. And I didn't not enjoy it. I thought parts of that were funny. It was just jarring. But it doesn't seem to belong in the same movie. And it's the same thing with...

the Marshawn Lynch stuff because Marshawn Lynch is playing one of two kind of henchmen who are I always talk in action movies about like the guy who stays in the car they're kind of the guys who stay in the car for much of the movie right and that's also comedic and I sometimes think it works but for me the central thing and you can sort of tell maybe the fact that we haven't talked about this might be

an issue. I think the character of Rose is the biggest sort of weird, didn't work part of this movie for me. It's nothing against Ariana DeBose, who I really like, who I think's really talented, but,

But I think they don't, like, make her much of a person. She sort of shows up and she's this mysterious, like, he's always had a thing for her. But it's not really clear why. She seems very unpleasant. And don't get me wrong. I love an unpleasant woman. But...

They have to be sort of unpleasant and smart or unpleasant and funny. I was a little lost about that character. Regina, you look like you have thoughts about Rose. Yeah, I think the director was like, more. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, I think someone who would talk and I think the director was like, more, you know? And I think...

the actress who plays Rose, I think she's a really good actress, but like that wasn't allowed to come out. And I also want to say something about the narration and this movie is like more tell than show. Like, you know, like his thoughts are being like narrated in the movie and then suddenly hers are, but they weren't before. And I was like,

It's like a weird anime where they have to explain every single part of the plot to you. And that's what I... And I agree with both of you that it's like all these kind of different genres because that was really weird too. And I think that took away from her character too that like it was weird. I think that the thing I couldn't really get over with Rose and I really like Ariana DeBose when she's doing her thing. I mean, she's a musical theater and I'm kind of a musical theater nerd too, weirdly. And at the same time,

It's hard for me to get over the fact that there is like this two decade age gap between the two and it's just very obvious on screen. And the mutual attraction is just hard to see. Look, it's one thing to say oh, they don't have chemistry, but

But it's kind of like they don't even have physics. You know what I mean? I don't think it's that you can't have a convincing relationship with an age gap. I think part of it is that they simply never mention it and that it's not part of the story of these characters, how they came to be this way. Yeah, that's true. I think it's also just that they don't put in the effort

to explain what these people like about each other. Go ahead, Jeff. I sort of jumped in. Yeah, no, I mean, that's exactly it. I mean, they don't really plant enough in this movie early on. And this has stuff to say about the direction as well as, again, another guy I'm rooting for. I think Jonathan Eusebio is a great stunt coordinator, great fight guy, great stunt man, but

This is his first directorial debut, and he's got a lot of stuff he's juggling. One of those things happens to be the fact that this romantic chemistry, I mean, it's called Love Hurts for a reason. You've got the hurts, plenty of the hurts, but the love part is a little harder to bite on in this movie. And it's part of the reason why some of these subplots feel a little bit perfunctory. Yeah.

But the central one, you know, this attraction, which is like, we have to believe these guys really, really love and want each other. And honestly, for me, I feel like Key's heart eyes are primarily for the audience, right?

And maybe a little for Sean Astin. You know what I mean? Oh, my God. That first scene in the first like 10 minutes, I was like, I almost cried because I was like, these are actually just these two people in real life. These two actors really caring about each other and being proud of each other in that moment. That chemistry was great. Clear. Very, very clear. Yeah.

you know, you see Sean Astin and you're getting your little Goonies reunion. That's very cool. I would say his chemistry with Leo Tipton, I think with the assistant is much better in terms of the fact that you, I believed those people had known each other a long time. And worked together well. And worked together. And Ashley, the assistant character, cared about him and, you know, that they had this bond. I do want to say that,

in fairness to the people who made this movie, I enjoyed the fighting. Yes, I agree. Particularly when it wasn't the kind of overly like this is too over the top violent for me. But a lot of it, I did enjoy these fights a great deal. I thought they were very engaging. I thought they were inventive, which is always what I want from fights. Except they're shelves and fridges, so you can't just throw somebody in anyway. Well, that's true. Also,

Also, you only get one Boba straw stab per movie. I'm just going to like – I think you can play that card once. It's true. After that. I will say something about this movie. It made me want to get Boba. We got Boba right after. So one of the best things about this movie. You know, one of my friends in college used to say when he went to Jackie Chan movies, he always found himself thinking less plot, more ladders. And I think like –

There's part of me that feels like maybe this movie needed less plot, more office supplies. Because those were the places where I felt like it was the most in its groove was when they were doing – which makes sense, right? Given the background of sort of everybody involved, especially the director. There is a particular genre that 87 North and pretty much like everybody associated with this film have kind of pioneered. Yeah.

And that is the crouching hitman, hidden badass film, you know? It's like the killer who's like, I'm out, but they're dragging me back in. And the thing which I think makes those movies different is it's not just external circumstances, right? It is very much, there's something about them that's,

Where it's like killing is so much a part of them that when they're not doing that, they're not whole. I mean, I Love Nobody, that's basically what that film was about. John Wick, basically what that film was about. This film is also that. But because they also want to, again...

quote and homage like Jackie Chan films totally makes sense because Ki Hoi Kwan actually can do those stunts, actually can do that martial arts work. Yes. That's where I think the genre jigsaw starts to happen and you start feeling it. I think that if it was a little more straight down the line of that sort of 87 North genre, it might have played more smoothly. Yeah. And

Frankly, I think the charm of Kihoy Kwan was seeing him a little bit more relentless and a little bit less comic in those fight sequences and

Might have actually sold them even harder. Yeah. But again, it's like you want to which end of the spectrum you want to be. You want to go full on action comedy slapstick or do you want to go again with this 87 North more like relentless killer type thing? Right. But the interesting thing is they have done, as you mentioned, 87 North, the kind of production house and the people associated with that. Right.

They have tended to go either more heavy, heavy like John Wick is or more fall guy, which is more of a straightforward comedy. Still has tons of stunts, still has tons of fighting and kind of over the top silly action sequences. Um,

And maybe what happened in this one is that they tried to kind of land in the middle. And it's sad to me because I love the idea of him as an action hero if for no other reason because he's over 50, right? I get the fights. I get him. I get the comedic, like, side plots. Yeah.

I actually think everything sort of works, but it doesn't seem to all work as one thing. I'm going to be fascinated to hear what people think. When I was walking out of this screening, the guys in front of me were like, I thought it was fantastic. I absolutely loved it. I love that for them. Yeah. Same with me. There was somebody who was like, it's so bad. It's good. And I don't think that's what these guys were doing. I think they genuinely just loved it as an action movie. And yeah,

I'm going to be fascinated to see how it plays out. All right. Well, we want to know what you think about Love Hurts. Find us at Facebook.com slash PCHH and on Letterboxd at Letterboxd.com slash NPR Pop Culture. We'll have a link in our episode description. Up next, what's making us happy this week?

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Now it's time for our favorite segment of this week and every week. What's making us happy this week? Regina Barber, what is making you happy this week? I'm going to break the rules. I'm going to say two things real quick. And it's going to be Chef John. Do you ever listen or watch him? He has this YouTube channel and he is a chef and he has the sing-songy voice and all of his recipes are like really good.

easy to like follow and his jokes are really corny, but I laugh every single time. So check that out. He's affiliated with all recipes now. And the second thing I was going to say, sometimes I just need comfort. So I've been watching a lot of Star Trek, The Next Generation, and like, you know, it's nostalgia and future hope at the same time. And I just been on my couch with a blanket, you know, watching Picard and being like, I love you, you know? Yeah.

Make it so. Perfect. Star Trek, The Next Generation on Paramount+. Thank you very much, Regina Barber. Jeff Yang, what is making you happy this week? So I am watching this site called Spring Training Countdown. And we are just two days and hours away from baseball coming back. Go Padres.

Baseball is the thing that I'm most looking forward to coming back in my life. It's been a long winter, lots of stuff going on. Yeah. I live in LA, but I'm a New Yorker in exile, so this has been a complicated season for me. Me too. I will say the Dodgers fans out here, a little insufferable, but very happy. Yeah.

The New Yorkers, not as much, but we'll make it through. Either way, I just love the sounds, the smells, the visuals of baseball so much. And I can't wait for that to be back in my life in a couple of days. Oh, same, Jeff. I am so incredibly here for this. I already have a ticket to go up to Philadelphia for the Phillies home opener. That is my beloved team. Woo!

So, yeah, we're all on the same page with this one. Baseball coming back, spring training countdown. Thank you very much, Jeff. What is making me happy this week? Teardown is a 2022 video game in which you own a demolition company. Already awesome. You go on a series of assignments in which you steal things or destroy things for your shady clients.

At the beginning, you're really just kind of running around with a sledgehammer, smashing walls to get into buildings and bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. That's amazing. As you progress, you start to realize that if you need to get into a building, you can like jump into a nearby construction vehicle and just drive through the wall of the building to get in.

Very satisfying. You get more tools as you go. Your assignments get more complicated. There's a lot of planning. At one point, I was trying to complete an assignment and I was getting delayed because you had to run around this big body of water. And then I realized that I could just drive all the construction vehicles into the water and leave them there and then run across the tops of all the construction vehicles.

that were in the water. It has a very particular aesthetic. It's made of, they call them voxels, which are like pixels, but they're 3D. So it has a kind of blocky look that's very appealing to me. I play it on a PC. You can also play it, I believe, on a PlayStation or an Xbox. I really do recommend it. You can also, by the way, just play this game in sandbox mode where you have no goal at all and you just run through the different places just breaking stuff and smashing into walls. And some days,

Like, that's exactly what I want. I just want to go around and take my blowtorch and cut through all the gates and then go in and just break everything and drive all the vehicles into the water. And sometimes that's just the mood that you're in. So that is Teardown, which I have been playing on PC. And that is what is making me happy this week. I got to say, if you love Teardown, you will love Love Hurts. Yeah.

Very reasonable point. Very reasonable point. All right. That is what is making me happy this week. If you want links for what we recommended, plus some additional recommendations, sign up for our newsletter at npr.org slash pop culture newsletter. That brings us to the end of our show. Regina Barber, Jeff Yang, thank you so much for being here. This was incredibly fun. Glass completely full on the conversation. Aw. Thank you.

This episode is produced by Liz Metzger, Hafsa Fathima, and Lennon Sherburn, and edited by Jessica Reedy and Mike Katziff. Hello, Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Linda Holmes, and we'll see you all next week.

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