H.H. Holmes, America's First Serial Killer, Part 2
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Welcome back spooky season Rami. Sisters? Sisters!

Okay. So by the time this has come out, I'm sure I will have watched it. But Tess, I've actually heard amazing things about Hocus Pocus 2. Wait, is it out? It comes out Friday, I think. But you know, there's been screeners. Okay. I've heard that everyone has been like, the trailer is trash. Trailer is trash. True trash. Apparently Sarah Jessica Parker is phenomenal in it. Which I mean, that whole cast. I know. And it's such a good role for her. It's such a good role for her. It like started her acting career, I feel. It like really just skyrocketed.

Yeah. So she... Okay, okay. Yeah, I've been hearing great things. I've been herring. Herring. So...

It's hard when you compare to the first because it's just such a classic. There's no comparison, really. And sometimes you just get irritated. You have these kid actors, but I don't know why I have such little patience for them. That's my own thing. No, because they're annoying. I'm with you. Yeah, and you're like, you don't deserve fame and this success. Nor should you have it right now. You're so young. Go play. Yeah, it's gross. That's why I didn't like Stranger Things. I could do a whole episode about child actors and how they trigger me. Well, we talked about how we needed you to do the Coogan account.

Oh, yeah, we do. We should do a lambie on that. I think what we should do. Maybe that will be my next one. Ooh. Whether you like it or not. You guys are interested, admit it. Yeah, admit it. And then if not, we're here to just chat. Always. Honey. But today, again, you guys know you came back for it. We are resuming with part two of HH Homes. Ah.

This freaking man. We've just gotten started. Well, we ended with our murder. Murder number one. A murder. Which might be the most dark murder I've ever heard about, to be completely honest. So also, he has his castle built. He's been scheming. He's been doing fraud left and right. A little bit of everything. A little bit of everything. Find a guy. Who can do it all. So, R.A.P. Julia and Pearl...

Shall we move on? We shall. So in the May of 1892, now Holmes is 31. He's relieved that no one suspected him. Okay, so no one's coming after him for Julia and Pearl. They're in Iowa. Uh-huh. They are living their best life. On a farm somewhere. In the, what's this, Iowa state? What's it called? Boise? No, like what's like the blank state? Oh, is it corn? No. It's cone. Potato? There's, now here's Nebraska. Okay.

The corn kid is my new favorite thing. It's like taking over the internet. Because I do also love corn. Yeah, so do I. What's it like? I love it. It's like, have a corn-tastic day. What? It's a pan of that cone. All the remixes. It's too much. It's so good. I love it. I also love the stress kid. I'm so stressed. Have you seen him? I don't know that kid. I feel like I embody that kid sometimes. I will send him to you.

I also did too. Shout out to Recess Therapy. Love it. Love it. Love it. So, all right. Okay. So...

Also at this time, Holmes has this guy named Benjamin Pitzel. P-I-E-T-Z-E-L. I listened to it on audiobook enough. You would think I would know how to say it, but I don't. You're doing great. So he uses this guy to do fraud stuff. I'm sure he's helped him murder a few times or cover up bodies. I think cover up bodies because Holmes liked to do that on his own. Right, a little sidekick though. But he's like this...

alcoholic dude, like really bad drunk all the time. He has a wife and like six kids or something like that. And I think he has six kids cause he's just so drunk all the time, you know, like multiplying like bunnies. So he sends him home, sends him himself to rehab. So what were his motives for sending him to rehab? Was it to sober him up because he was starting to get a little sloppy and he needs his right hand man to like be on it or

Or was it to get intel on the Keeley gold treatment? Have you ever heard of the Keeley gold treatment? I mean, no. Why would you? It sounds like a facial. Yeah. Kind of. Because you're not an alcoholic in the 1800s. But it was what people really thought was the cure for alcoholism in the 1800s. I didn't even think that there was rehab in the 1800s. There was. There was in the late 1800s. Interesting.

we kind of talked about it in our prohibition episode that's never been released. It's like around this time that so many men were just drunk as a skunk and so many people were like, okay. And like the women were like, for love of God, it's just time. Please sober the fuck up. Right. So this formula was the thing that they had that was a mix of something, but gold was like the big ingredient and they would inject it into people's arms. Um,

three times a day from this huge-ass needle, and it would leave a yellow spot on the skin. And besides gold, the formula was kept a secret, but they think it included substances that caused euphoria and sensation. I said euphoria and sensation. I don't know what sensation means. It's probably more drugs. Just like a nice sensation. Yeah, exactly. I feel like they've shot them up with something else. And they said anti-amnesia.

Right. It's like when people have trauma and then there's like a certain therapy that they're like, take this. Yes. It's almost like that. It's like along that same sort of... Like replacing it. Right. Kind of. Like makes sense. Yeah. So, but I don't think it worked at all. Also, I thought this was so interesting. At these rehab facilities, men would line up for their injections and women would get them in their room and keep separate from the men to protect their reputation. Right.

It's like, so men can be drunks, but women, you can't. Exactly. So annoying. But there was one woman. Oh, also, the reason why he wanted intel on all this stuff is because Holmes is like, rehab is the perfect scheme, like fraud for me to get because no one's more desperate than an addict and it's going to be so easy for me to sell fake shit to them. Well, I was going to say, he's also probably like, I could pretend to administer them this stuff and like I could kill them. Exactly.

I could put like poison in there. It's like the perfect target. Once again, ill. So one woman does catch, um, pizza's eye though. And it was a nurse who works there. So he comes back to Chicago when he's out of rehab and he goes to Holmes and he was like, I saw the most beautiful woman I've ever seen in my life. And Holmes was like, excuse me.

He's like, I've already dated her. I've already killed her. And killed her. So she, he was like, give me her info. And he writes to her. And her name is also Emmeline Sigrand. I think that's how you say her name. Emily, Emily, Emily. Oh, my God. Emmeline Sigrand. She was blonde, 24 years old. It's like just Holmes type. Beautiful. Beautiful.

Right. He loves a blonde. He really does. So Holmes writes to her and offers to pay her double if she comes and works for him. And within, and she's like, oh. Red flag. Yeah. Why? You don't even know me. Exactly. So she's like, hell yeah. And Holmes hires Emmeline in May 1892. Wow.

Um, and she's also like, again, Chicago, Chicago was such an interesting town. So it's this woman being like, I could go live in the city. Yeah. And it could be provided. I can get out of my small town. All like doe eyed and hopeful. So within just a few months he seduces her. He buys her gifts like a bicycle, which at this time was a huge deal. Oh yeah. Expensive. Expensive. And like women weren't really on bicycles, right? Or no, were they? I think that they were. I think that the people would like couples would go through the parks.

Oh, yeah. Hard in the skirt. In the long skirt. Truly. Like, you get caught up in that. But, so she's pumped about that. And he convinces Emmeline that he's the son of an English lord and promises to take her to his father's estate once they honeymoon. And he asks her to marry him in November of 1892. Wow, quick. Doesn't waste any time. So, despite several warning signs, Mm-hmm. Yes.

That Emmaline had. Even Ned. Remember Julia's ex, Ned? Oh, yeah. Poor thing. He comes back into the castle and is like, I need to talk to your boss because I have some money that's owed to me. He thinks that his wife and daughter are in Iowa at this time, too. Check in on them, maybe. I know. Come on.

go visit truly your daughter um he she's like oh I actually know your name because I work as home secretary um she's like he's not here at the time but they get to talking and then from the way she's talking Ned picks up that she's dating this man and he was like this guy is bad news you need to stay away from him and is she like oh he's probably just saying that because he's like a scorned ex-husband and all the creditors that would come and ask for money Holmes would be like

they're honestly just jealous of my success. That's why people are coming after him. Right, every way, like he's prepared to have a twist and manipulation on anything that people accuse him of. He has an answer for everything, exactly. So after she agrees to marry him, Holmes gives her a dozen plain white envelopes

and asked her to address them to her closest friends and family. He's like, we're going to send out these beautiful wedding invitations soon, but right now just pick your closest 12 friends and family and just write on the envelope. I'll type up a letter announcing it, but just address them, and I'll handle the rest. He's like, pick your bridesmaids. The original bridal party? Yeah, exactly. He started it? He started it. Okay, so she does that.

She goes to visit a friend and the friend kind of starts to get the vibe that her feelings might have changed. Like maybe like her love for him was fading a little bit. And she was also pissed that he took 800, her $800 in savings and hadn't paid it back yet. Again, remember like Clara, his first wife paid for his medical school. He just takes and takes and takes.

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Over the next few hours, Holm listened through the door of the safe as Emmeline screamed until she ran out of oxygen and suffocated. Yeah. Her body was sold off to medical school. It happened so fast. If he's like this, like, psycho who likes to, that's, like, it's a shocking way for him to kill her. I believe he was getting off on her screaming as well. Oh, okay. I mean, well, yeah, that's.

Horrible. He loved tricking people. That was his thing. Yeah, yeah. Like, it wasn't necessary. Like, he did, like, obviously, like, kind of skin them, and he liked the dissection and all that stuff, but he really was such a psychopath, like, with the creditors, with the women. Like, he liked fooling people. Yeah. Also, later, when police finally searched the castle down the road...

They would find a single footprint etched in to the steel inside of the safe's door. Now, how the hell did this woman get her footprint etched into the steel door? Holmes had covered the floor of the safe in acid to speed the asphyxiation process along, and the acid on her foot had made the footprint in the steel door. She's trying to kick the door open. He is a supervillain. Ew. Crazy. Crazy.

So, Oh God. Now Emmaline was a popular girl. Remember how I remember the envelopes I just talked about? I mean, of course you do. Um, and,

She had a lot of friends and family, which is why Holmes had asked her to address the envelope. After she disappeared, he took the envelopes that she addressed in her own handwriting, typed up wedding announcements with another man instead of him, and sent them out to her friends and family, making them believe she had run off with a rich European man with the last name of Phelps.

And it had her handwriting on the card. So they were literally like, oh, it's an address letter from Emmaline. And she's in Europe. I did think he was going to use those addresses and kill all those people. So I do feel somewhat relieved. Yeah, seriously. It's not even more people. I don't know why that made me laugh so much. But.

No, he did not. It's even crazier than that. God damn this man. Crazy. God damn his intelligence. Right? His creativity, honestly. Creativity is what it is. Phelps also was actually an alias that Benjamin Pietzel used the name of when he met Emmeline in rehab, which like makes it even more sick because it's like his assistant used that name.

The same name he uses in a letter that he's lying to her family after he just murdered her, that she ran off with the man of the same name. Does that make sense? It makes as much sense as it can. It can. Exactly. It's so sick. Meanwhile, Holmes de-skins the dead Emmeline from the waist up. The dead Emmeline. He then asks two men living in the mansion to help him carry a trunk outside.

The trunk was super heavy and he kept being like, please be careful and do not open it. Just carry it out. And he ships the trunk off to Charles again, who further processes the body of Emmeline and sells her skeleton to medical science. Her parents later on end up thinking she died in Europe and that the rich man just didn't have their contact info. So whatever. Oh my God. There's like no...

There's no consequences for people's actions, like at all. Did people just disappear completely? Was that like a normal thing back then? I'm sure it was. Yeah, I'm sure it was more common. It's just crazy. And like, what are you going to do? Like, you can't look them up. You can't just go to them in your car. You can't text them and be like, are you okay? Nothing. It's crazy. So yeah, I guess this did happen.

And I think a lot of people also like left home and then like parents didn't hear from them again, you know? Yes. It sounds so sad. Oh, it sounds awful. Did people love each other back then? Was it real love? You know, like, or maybe it was the most real love. Wow. Letting someone go. Right. Right. If you love something. You must set it free. Wow.

Well, I wish that her parents would have like checked in a little more. I mean, same. I wish they didn't have to end this way. Yeah. So in 1893, Emmeline is gone and he's like, okay, back to business. Besides the murder mansion, he currently owned a portion of a legit company that produced, because you know, not all of his companies were legit. He would just take in money. Yeah. It produced a machine for duplicating documents. So what we would know is like a copy machine now. Oh, right.

He had a mail order business that had ointments and elixirs. And by now he had established his own alcohol treatment company, the Silver Ash Institute, which is. Oh, so he's just completely coffee. He's like, but my silver. You know, if you're a creative guy, at least like go do different branding. He doesn't give a fuck.

He's like, because people are going to be dead and I'm going to be happy. And I'm so charming that it doesn't even matter. God damn it. So between May 1st and October 30th of 1893, over 27 million people attended the Chicago World Fair.

27 million at that time. That is crazy. Like everyone. People from around the world came in. Crazy. So many of them were out-of-towners needing a place to stay. Mm-hmm. So Holmes is like, this is perfect. And starts preparing the mansion for fairgoers to stay in. Mm-hmm.

He's just putting mints on all the pillows. Lavender as well. He starts bringing in furniture without paying a dime, but he also knew his time in Chicago was kind of coming to an end. People were starting to ask more questions. Creditors were coming after him more often.

And those who stayed at the castle long term or those who worked for Holmes noticed that he was particularly forgiving of young women who would suddenly leave without paying their bills, which happened a lot. And they were like, why doesn't he care if they didn't pay? He's like, because they're hot. And I murdered them. Exactly.

It's as easy as that. So what else do you need to ask me? Exactly. So people in the neighborhood also notice an unusually high rate of turnover in the staff. Uh-huh. And the first floor, the mostly young and attractive women who worked for home seem to just leave without warning and leave all of their belongings behind in their rooms that were always on the second floor.

Oh, because the second floor is where they stayed. And the third was like kind of his office and all that stuff. And police start, oh my God, I just got so excited. Your eyes just lit up. I know. I'm like, what's about to happen? Like nothing really. Police started receiving letters from parents looking for their missing daughters. And if a girl sends a letter to her family with the return address of the murder castle, the detectives would go to the castle and talk to Holmes. And Holmes was like, I know it is horrible how people are just disappearing left and right.

And then they would leave shaking hands, being all buddy buddies by the time they were done talking. By March 1893, Holmes needs a new secretary, probably because he kept killing all of his. So the fair had brought in a ton of women to Chicago, which is what he looked for the most. And...

The fact that he could... Oh, also, like, one of the things that was known is, like, when fairgoers would go to stay there, he always had room for women. But if a man would try to come rent from him, he'd be like, we're all booked. Sorry. God. I know. It's a horny man. It's so gross. So...

Let's see. The last woman that was close to Holmes that would meet her fate in the murder castle was a one-time actress, 25-year-old named Minnie Williams. Minnie Williams. Minnie Williams. He had met her several years earlier in Boston while traveling on a business trip under the alias Henry Gordon. I keep imagining H.H. Holmes in that red wig that Jennifer Garner wore. Oh my God, with the black turtleneck and leather pants.

Every time he has an alias. So good. I was here for Halloween once. Oh, that's a great costume. Thanks. I was really into that show. I remember having it on like my mom was always watching. So good. I need to go back and watch it. So underrated. I mean, Jennifer Garner is one celebrity that I've heard is just as nice as you think she is. And thank God there's one. Thank God we need her.

especially in this dark time okay so this is also this is so sad this is how many is described in the book oh god she was plain short and plump she had a masculine nose thick dark eyebrows and virtually no neck her expression was bland her cheeks full a baby face she didn't seem to know a great deal oh my god you're not very pretty and you're not very bright

Like, they could have just stopped it at no neck. Seriously. Like, you don't have to keep going on. You don't have to be cruel. Yeah, justice for many. Like, literally, this woman...

probably got killed so like let's at least give her some nice uh compliments sure you were stunning thick dark eyebrows are in these days many you were just ahead of your time and like being short and plump is a beautiful thing absolutely it's just different than what homes usually went for six foot julia you know but hey switch it up sometimes variety is a special life life they say that's what they say well so like why would homes want many sorry many but like if you're not as tight as they did i thought you were defending me i'm

I don't know why we went into Tuffy's voice. I don't know why we did our talk. But we did. So, okay, why was he into Minnie? Well, little Miss Minnie was a land heiress. Going after the money. Yep. Her uncle left her an estate worth $100,000, which today, clerk you later, is over $3 million. Oh, sad. I bet men did this to her all the time because they knew that she was rich, that they were like, Minnie. Minnie.

You're hot, Vinny. I like your no-neck. Oh, and your masculine nose. I find it charming. She was obsessed with Holmes, or as she knew him, Henry Gordon. I mean, he totally seduced her and then would go visit her and then go back to Chicago. And, you know, of course, she's not the hottest thing. Or the brightest thing, apparently. Right, exactly. So this hot guy is paying attention to her. That's a doctor and has a castle. Right. So...

Holmes contacts Minnie and he's like, come work for me and live with me and we can be together all the time. Now, in this time period, again, that is scandal, honey, to live with a man before marriage. But she was like, that just must be how they do it in Chicago. Yeah.

You know, it's not a different Chicago. Yeah. Like let's not, it's not Europe. You know, it's like probably a two hour train ride. So, um, she's like, women live freely there. She's stoked. Says yes. He's like, great. One little thing. When we're out in public, instead of calling me Henry, call me HH Holmes. And don't be surprised when other people call me HH Holmes.

Ladies. Come on. Ladies. I mean, I know you're not bright, Minnie, but like there's got to be something there. There has to be one redeemable. Right? Quality about you, sweetheart. So she's living with him for a few months and he asked to marry and he asked her to marry him. She was stoked. She writes to her sister, Anna, and she lets her know all of the good news. And her sister, Anna, was like, what?

She's like, don't do this. She's like, this is way too fast. And is essentially like, Minnie, I think he might be using you, sweetheart. Because she found out that he knew about the land. And then she's like, you don't think anyone could love me? And it's like something that they've been going through their whole life. Yep. Totally. I'm sure Anna was like a little prettier. Right. Oh, God. There could be a movie just based on these sisters. Yeah, there really could. Anna and Minnie. So Holmes promises...

her like the world. He's like, we'll move to Europe and all this stuff. But, um, he's like, I do, I have a great financial plan that will bring a huge profit, but you have to sign over the deed to your land to a man named Alexander Bond. Um,

He is the original Tinder swindler. He is. He is. Just like going after these rich women and being like, I promise I got you. Give me a couple weeks. Exactly. All this will be yours, but you have to do this for me first. So she does. She signs over the lane to Alexander Bond, which was another H.H. Holmes alias. Cue the red wig. Oh.

Oh, cue the red wig. Yep. So he's like, let's get married quickly and quietly. They do, but it's not legitimate. Oh, they actually got married. Yes. But I think this is, I don't know if he actually married Julia, but this is, he married Myrta in our beginning episode and Clara. So this is his third or fourth wife, but it's not legitimate because he's still married to Clara. Oh, that's what happens when you kill one of them. Yeah. But none of them know about each other. Right. So,

And so Minnie tells Anna she transferred the land. Anna is super suspicious. And so Holmes is like, why don't you just tell Anna to come meet me and hang at the Chicago World Fair and I will charm her over. No. No, not both of them. No. So as the World Fair was starting and visitors were coming in, again, he always had room for female customers. And with more females coming in, Minnie is starting to get more and more jealous, which

Which is inconveniencing him. So he rents out an apartment outside of the hotel. And he's like, we'll go stay there. Or at least you live over in this apartment while I take over the hotel because it's such a busy time. Is it? No, it's not. So he has her outside of the hotel so he can start enjoying the ladies of there more. Okay. So they already put that.

At this time, a waitress disappeared from the restaurant without no explanation. A stenographer. What's a stenographer? It's like a court reporter. Oh, oh. Yeah. In the family. It's all in the family. Which I think actually a stenographer at this time too would probably be like a secretary. Like anyone that can type. Yeah. Got it. Which it's crazy to think that not everyone could type back then. I know that like you can type. That's so chic. It'd be like the equivalent of...

Like codeine? Yes. And like also we should value that more. I think it was only women. It's so true. And like what a hard thing to learn back in like when you had a fucking typewriter. Seriously. You couldn't just delete things. No, you really couldn't. White out. So you had to be skilled. Yes, you did. You did. And precise. History of stenography. Truly. Cindy would be so pleased. We got everyone's against. So the hotel really started to smell like chemicals and or gas. Yes.

And like decaying bodies. And this was because he was killing gas by letting gas in their room or the chloroform rags. And what he would do with the bodies, he had a few options. We have the kiln where he would burn them. He would sell the bones to the medical science or he would put them in quick lime and dissolve them. Yeah. Disgusting. That's what they did to the Romanovs. Remember, they tried to do that. Oh, yeah. When they were burying their bodies.

So Anna gets into town and Holmes takes Minnie and her sister out every single night to the World's Fair. And they are just so completely charmed by him. Do you know some things that were invented at the Chicago World's Fair? Tell me. Juicy fruit. The gum. Oh. Yes. Cracker Jacks. We already said the Ferris wheel. And shredded wheat. That cereal. Yum. Isn't that crazy? Yeah.

That's crazy. I know. So people were just walking around looking at like inventions? Yes, exactly. So cool. It sounds so fun. And going on the Ferris wheel. Or like, was it like... The Ferris wheel was an invention. Oh. Which I would not want to be the first one. Absolutely not. Honestly, most of these things I'd be like, oh wait, for three to five years. Yeah, exactly. But I will try the Cracker Jacks because those look delicious. And the gum. Yeah, of course. Always the gum. Always the gum.

So they are chopping on some juicy fruit and enjoying the world. They're like, man, this is the best life. Oh, it's so sad. Okay. So Anna, yeah, she's completely charmed by Choms. And it's like, you know what? I'll stay for the summer. Is she falling in love with him? I think she just is like, thinks he's so funny. I think she's happy for Minnie. Like finally. She's like, none of us thought it. Yeah.

She's like mother and father too. All of us are shocked. All of us are shocked and that he's actually a good guy. And she's so sad that he is not for Minnie. I know. So the next day Holmes decides to take Anna on a tour of his hotel while Minnie stays back and packs because they were going to go to Europe for the summer and packs for the trip.

So he's taking her through the castle and he ends the tour in his office. God. He then asked if she would go into his vault and grab a document that he left in there. And she's like, no problem. She hops on in there and he follows behind and quietly and slowly shuts the door. Again? Again. You know what? Like...

At least do a variety of. I know. I mean, I guess he did. Who knows how else he did, but like crazy. So at first she wasn't even scared. She was just kind of embarrassed. She's like, oh my God, I like locked myself in this vault. And then longer and longer, he can't come out. Her panic increases and he just sits in a chair and enjoys what he hears. He gets off on this. Yep. No. And then he fills the vault with gas and kills Anna.

this just didn't happen that long ago. Also, what didn't happen that long ago is I started Dahmer, the Jeffrey Dahmer Netflix show. Excuse me. Bless you. Um, I don't know what that is. Oh, Tess, I don't think you would enjoy it. I was so scared for the first two episodes, but it's another serial killer and it was in the 80s, I believe. And it's like similar things of crazy shit that they would do with bodies and stuff. I just hate how it's always like against women. Well, actually, um, Jeffrey Dahmer was against men. Oh, oh. Yeah, so...

It's hard to make a joke about that. It's hard. I know, guys. We have to. We're trying. With this episode. You have to laugh to keep from crying. You do. So Holmes, so yeah, he fills the gas, kills Anna. And then he goes back to Minnie and is like, let's go join Anna at the castle. By the way, I just love your sister. I just think she is the greatest. I'm so glad we're getting along. So a couple days later, the people who rented out the flat to Holmes and Minnie receive a letter from Holmes saying that they no longer needed the flat.

Holmes calls on a guy who transports furniture and Holmes has a box and a trunk to haul. And he tells the man to deliver the box to the train station and the trunk to his friend who makes skeletons. Holmes then gives Minnie and Anna's belongings to his friend Benjamin Pietzel's wife and children. Wait, but is Minnie confused? No, sorry. I kind of skipped over. Minnie is also killed by gas. Gas.

Oh, got it. Okay. So both of them go by the gas and he hires someone to carry a trunk down that has both their bodies. I think, I don't know why he just says the train station is what I heard in the book. So I don't know what ended up happening to that body. And the other one was sold for medical science. And then he ends up giving their clothes to his friend's family.

Do the doctors know that the bodies are always coming from him or does he just basically like leave them? They don't ask. No, I don't think that. So there's like no questions asked. No. And they need it. Like again, they need it for studies. Right, so they're like, we don't care. Yeah, exactly. It's so dark. Like maybe you should ask some questions. Yeah, please. The lesson this whole episode, if you have a feeling about anything in your tummy, a little gut, bad feeling, ask. It doesn't hurt to ask. Truly. You know, like it could be nothing, but it could be something. Always. Yeah. Yeah.

So Holmes is single yet again. He's like ready to get back out there. He really is. And now he also has a ton of land in Texas because of Minnie's family that he had that signed over. Tinder swindler. Exactly. So he wasted no time and brings in a new woman, Georgina Yoke, who was blonde hair, blue eyed. He's like, I'm back to my type. I missed it. He's like, I will not show you away again. Um,

Um, he met her a year earlier at a department store that she worked at. And it's all the same shit of like, I've never met a man like him. He touches my arm. He looks at me in the eye. It's like, again, raise the bar ladies. And she felt so bad for him because all of his family had died except for an aunt in Africa, which is like, well, you're getting crazy with these lies. And his last uncle had just died and left him a large property in Texas. That was many's uncle. Yeah.

God, it's so sad. The lies. And they're just getting worse and worse. At some point, it gets hard to keep track of them, doesn't it? No kidding. And it's just like, it's one thing to completely make stuff up, but the fact that you're like sprinkling in information from your victims...

as your own lie it's a darkness I I don't think we've ever even talked about on this podcast psychopaths are so crazy because you can't understand them I know it doesn't make sense and they're just like maniacally laughing at all of it exactly they're getting off on it yeah so he buys her he buys her presents like a bible which is dark I'd be like can I exchange this what's her return policy gift or something

Um, diamond earrings. He asked her to be his wife. I'm not skipping time on this one. I believe it happened this fast. Yeah. And she agrees, um, to be his wife instantly, but, um,

Then again, he's like, okay, so for our marriage, I'm going to have to use a different name. And I'm going to use the name Henry Mansfield Howard because my dead uncle, when he left me the land, it was really important to him to carry on his name. So he was like, when you inherit the land, you have to change your name to my name. And everyone's just like, oh, makes sense.

Shayna Moore. So again, it's like an alias thing so that she's not like, why is the land or not under your name? Um, okay. So Holmes knows though, at this time, it's time to leave Chicago. The creditors are starting to tag team and more and more people are asking questions about the women. Uh huh. Well, good. Finally, thank God someone shows up. He sets fire to his third floor, the third floor of his building. Um,

but it does minimal damage, but he still filed a $6,000, uh, policy claim under one of his aliases, Hiram S. Campbell, which is like also the same last name as one of his other aliases. It's like, again, get a little more creative. Yeah, please. Um, but so an investigator for the insurance company was like, something's not right here. And he looks into it and he doesn't find any signs of arson, but he tells the insurance company, you know,

you pay the money, but only pay it if this Hiram S. Campbell is there in person. Oh. Like don't pay it to someone claiming to be like a beneficiary for him or something like that. I mean, at least one person knows how to do their goddamn job. Seriously.

let's cross check some things. It's like a miracle. Like the world, I wish it could be all like roses and daisies, but it's not. Hey, we all do. Yeah, but it's not. No. So he never actually collected the money on that. But as the investigator was looking into this claim, he managed to unite all the creditors that had been knocking on his door being like, you took money from us, you took furniture from us. So they're all like, wait, he hasn't paid you back either? He hasn't paid me back.

So then the lawyer for all of them calls Holmes into his office and Holmes is like, do to do walks in, think it's just going to be the two of them. He ultimately walks in to find two dozen creditors, all of their attorneys and a detective and they're waiting for him.

Ambush. Ambush. We love to see it. We do. Holmes ends up fleeing. They kind of talk. How so easy? They're just like, and go. Yeah. So they end up like kind of talking. And he's like, you know, guys, like my ambition got ahead of me. I'm really sorry. Why don't I take out another one? One of them was actually like, I believe him. But they're like, we'll remeet about this. And he flees.

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So Holmes takes off to Texas to his land. Oh, well, sure. With Georgina Yoke and his assistant, Benjamin Pietzel, which is like third wheel bugs. Yeah, sweetheart, like move on, get another job. Something. So he plans to use Minnie's estate funds to build a structure much like the one in Chicago. Just before he leaves, he takes out a life insurance policy on Benjamin Pietzel's life for $10,000. I'm like, you gone. Yeah. Please, like...

If all of a sudden you write Claire Gunn, I'd take out a life insurance policy. Can you explain more? I'd rather not. Yeah, like I'm good. Boundaries and friendship. Yeah, you can say no. You really can. I think that's actually what Benjamin Pitzel said was boundaries and friendship. Yeah, you

Like how have we not discussed this? Right. So they stop in Denver to get married along the way. Okay. Making her the fourth woman to think she was married to him. Good. They spent some time in Fort Worth and then they traveled around a bit, staying in cities such as St. Louis and Philadelphia. And it's in Philadelphia where Holmes convinces Piazzolla to fake his own death so that Piazzolla's wife could collect a $10,000 life insurance policy, which she would split with Holmes.

So the scheme called for Piazzolla to set himself up as an inventor under the name B.F. Perry and then be killed and disfigured in a lab explosion. And then Holmes would find a cadaver to match. Instead, Holmes killed Piazzolla by knocking him unconscious with chloroform and setting his body on fire. Enough with the chloroform. Chloroform.

crazy I think because he was such a drunk that he got him so wasted to knock him out and then use the chloroform and set him on fire it's like he trusted you like he was like your only person actually even helping you too he helped you find one of your wives no he was like one of the only except for the Charlie Chapel guy or whatever yeah like why would you want to ruin such a good like confident I think that he was like not ruin kill kill I think he was like he knows too much now because people were starting to come after him

So Holmes collects the insurance money on Petzl using his actual body instead of a cadaver. He then goes to Petzl's wife, Carrie, and he tells her that her husband went into hiding in London, and he convinces her to let him take her three children, Alice, Nellie, and Howard, to see their father in London.

He's like, let me take the kids. I know where they are. No, no, no, no. And he's also like, why don't you start moving around and I'll guide you so that when he comes out in hiding, you guys can all live together. I'm so excited for someone to like kill this man at this point. It's rewarding towards the end. Oh, thank God. I'm like something bad has happened to this fucker. Oh yeah, it's rewarding. So Holmes starts moving three separate parties of travelers from place to place. The kids

the mom and she had like a baby and then him and Georgina. But Georgina doesn't even know about Pietzel's kids because somehow he's managing to move these two other parties without her knowing anything. Of course. It's crazy. I don't even... Oh, God. Oh, God. Oh, God. I don't exactly know how he even did that. So when they reach Indianapolis...

Holmes cooked Howard, one of the sons, or the son, a poison meal, essentially. The boy's teeth and bits of bones were discovered in Holmes' chimney later on. Yeah.

So again, like I think again, he's like, I'm just got to kill. I don't know why. Why the family? I don't know. I mean, maybe they again, like he thought they knew too much. Also, like there's no logic behind. No, he just probably thinks the more the merrier. Exactly. Like he loves this. So then he tells every he tells everyone that he sent Howard to his cousin, Minnie. Again, he's using like names and.

It's so gross. At least respect them. That's, that's what it is. It's like the disrespect after they're already dead. After you brutally murdered all your wives, like don't involve them anymore. Exactly. Let it be. Let the mouse go. Let them rest. So Benjamin would, so he's like, Benjamin is actually not going to meet you guys in, um, Indianapolis anymore, but now in Toronto. Um, and meanwhile, back in Philly, an insurance investigator was having doubts about Piazzolla's death.

They hired the Pinkerton National Detective Agency, which I guess is like a big deal, to pursue Holmes and investigate for... It does, doesn't it? Like, imagine pink uniforms. Yeah, yeah. Right? Because Pinkerton. To investigate further. Holmes knew he was running out of time, so he tells Benjamin's wife to go to New York, and he sets his sight on getting rid of the two older girls.

Okay, so Holmes later confesses to murdering Alice and Nellie by forcing them into a large trunk and locking them inside. He drilled a hole in the lid of the trunk and put one end of the hose through the hole, attaching the other end to a gas line to asphyxiate the girls. He loves the suffocating thing. It's so creepy. Again, it's like the tricking and it's like a slow way to do it. Yeah, that's so true. It's like extends it. Cruel to like...

And also it's like scientific and medical still. It's like when he was dissecting the animals to get them as long, alive as long as possible. Yeah. This is like such an upsetting episode. I'm so sorry, guys. So Holmes buried their nude bodies in the cellar of his rental house in Toronto that they later discovered.

Again, I don't think Georgina knows about any of this stuff going on because I think he'd be like, I'm going to go out for a walk and then would go do his business. Wake up. Wake up. So after killing the girls, Georgina and him traveled around for the next few weeks and landed in Boston on November 13th, 1894. Scorpio season.

Shit's happening. Scary time. Detectives are close behind them, though. Oh, good. Thank God. Get to them. Yeah. Because they're like, there's some missing pieces going around. All these girls have been gone in his castle. Yes. There's creditors everywhere. So finally, he was arrested in Boston on November 17th after being tracked there. The initial charge was horse theft in Texas. Oh, that's right. Leave the horses out of it. That's what I was like.

I was like, where's the horse that come along? So I guess when he was in Texas, he was kind of stealing horses. I also think he was like selling them illegally and all that stuff. He was like, leave me out of it though. It's like, guys. Tell me again. This episode is sponsored by Tubby. It sure is. Leave me out of it though.

So, because they arrested him on that because they're like, we know that he's done more stuff, but we've got to get him on something. Yes. So horse theft it is. Smart. Yep. So they were also worried he was about to flee the country with his current unsuspecting wife. So they like arrest him for something. Yep. And then they start discovering all the bodies of the Piazzo kids of, and then they realize Benjamin's like body and all that stuff. And so they start-

seeing things. So now they have evidence. So in October 18, oh, also Holmes, when they arrested him said, well, I suppose they'll hang me for this. It's like just what he says. That's what he said. I believe that's what he said. Like what exactly did he say, Claire? I'm like, am I mixing this up with Jeffrey Dahmer? But I think that he said, well, I think they'll hang me for this. Well, probably because isn't Dahmer in the 80s? Yeah. They didn't hang people. I don't think that Dahmer, um,

Wait, if you guys see that Dahmer says something when he gets arrested along those lines, but not being honest, the police are like, what? Like, okay. But so while he's in jail...

He starts writing an autobiography and that's where we get the quotes. The devil. I was born with the devil. I couldn't help it. Oh. Yeah. So, and also, we just don't have enough time. But apparently, like, it's really interesting. And they talk about this in The Devil in the White City of how they started following him. And they started tracking letters from Pietzel's kids and where they were coming from. So, it's really interesting. And I wish we could go into more details, but I won't.

So in October 1895, Holmes was put on trial for the murder of Benjamin Pietzel and was found guilty and sentenced to death.

By then, it was evidence Holm had also murdered the three missing Piazzol children because they found all the bodies. But not the wives? There's just no evidence? I don't think they find that until like later, later. And that's where they discover the steel door and they discover like they're tracking it all back and being like, fuck, the skeleton is actually her. Right. They're like, goddammit. Yeah.

We should have been more on top of this. Should we keep it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So also following his conviction, Holmes was paid $7,500 by a newspaper company in exchange for his confessions.

Which was quickly found to be mostly nonsense because he's a freaking psychopath. So he started saying that he murdered some people. So he confesses to 27 murders in Chicago. Oh my God. Indianapolis and Toronto. But the reason why they're like, what? Is because some of the people that he was saying that he murdered were still alive.

So I think he was trying to, he's like, I know I'm going to go soon. I want to be remembered as bad as they come. Oh, so he was like, I killed more people than you even think I did. Exactly. He's just making shit up. Like now you're a loser. He's been losers since day one, but that is super loser-y. No, now you're a loser. I was rooting for him. Yeah. No. It is so loser-y though. It is. So yeah. And he said he attempted six more murders, but. Oh, attempted. Yeah. But so again. I wonder if anyone got away. Yeah.

that's a great question. And we don't like, we know Julia and Pearl, Minnie and Anna, um, and the Pietzel families. Like we know those for a fact, but again, like more people disappeared. So I'm sure there was a ton of people, but I'm sure it's just not as much as like what he was saying. Right. Ew. So on May 7th, 1896, Adrian and Penelope's birthday. Oh my God.

They're like, down, down with him. Justice is being served on this day. Adrienne, you were mentioned in part two. Adrienne, these are your episodes. I'm so sorry. Listen, you don't choose it. It chooses you. Sometimes, right? Right. So on May 7th, 1896, Holmes was hanged in Philadelphia for the murder of Pietzel. Until the moment of his death, Holmes remained calm and amiable. Is that the word? I don't know. I think it's calm and chill. Amicable? Amicable.

Maybe. Amiable? Amiable is like friendly. A-M-I-A-B-L-E. Amiable. Hey, this isn't a reading podcast. Sure isn't. He showed very few signs of fear and anxiety or depression. Despite this, he asked for his coffin to be contained in cement and buried 10 feet down because he was concerned grave robbers would steal his body and use it for dissection.

It's like not everyone's a psychopath like you, Holmes. Right. And also who's going to be like, okay, sure, we'll request like. I want to honor your body. Yeah. No, fuck that. So I don't think that went through. Over. Okay. So we're here at the hanging. Holmes neck did not break. And so he instead strangled to death slowly twitching for over 15 minutes before being pronounced dead 20 minutes after the trap had been sprung.

That is literally the energy from all of those women being like, we are coming together today and we are doing this to him. 100%. We are going to make this as terrible for you as possible. And I'm sure he had people like screaming and spitting on him. Karma is a goddamn bitch. It always shows up on time. It always does. I mean, it was a little late on this one, but it showed up. I mean, it's still like in these episodes to be like, thank God. Cause it's like,

But that's your feeling of being like, I'm glad that this person suffered because of how horrible he was. It does. It always feels weird to say I'm glad someone suffered. But in this case, it doesn't feel that weird to me because he was evil. Right.

I mean, yes, 100%. Very. Yeah. So upon his execution, Holmes' body was interred in an unmarked grave at a Holy Cross cemetery, a Catholic cemetery in the Philadelphia western suburb of Yeadon, Pennsylvania. And that is H.H. Holmes. Wow, what a dark, dark man. Dark. I mean, like, that's not even a good word for him. I know. It is. He's completely evil. Yeah. It's even different than, like –

Anyone we've talked about in the podcast – I mean, it's obviously – we've talked about a lot of evil villains, but – He's definitely more evil than Charles Manson because Charles Manson never actually even like – I mean, he did disgusting things, but he never with his bare hands like killed someone. Right. And so many – and people that he pretended to love, like there's just some – you know, he's like taking advantage of all these women. Yes. Making them feel safe.

Exactly. And he liked it. Yes. And then involving their families. And involving them in the lies. It's so gross. God, the murder castle. I hope that a movie actually comes out. I mean, I know. For the show. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What are we waiting for? I don't know. There's probably just like production shit. God, I know. But you know, it's going to be so again, like Keanu Reeves, you're so nice. Apparently everyone says so, but you're out. And what's the actor's name? Oh, Kevin Zegers. Yes. You're in. Now I just don't really picture him looking like Keanu Reeves at all. He doesn't.

He really doesn't look like him at all. I'm so confused. I also feel like, I know people love Keanu Reeves. I think he's like one of the worst actors of all time. Isn't that kind of one of the jokes too? Is it? I think you're onto something. Right, that people are like, what the fuck? Yeah. But he's not, like they should cast someone that's super charming and like intoxicating. Keanu Reeves is kind of just like a blob. Like a blob. He's just a blob.

I'm always just like, how does this man get cast in things? No, but I totally agree with you. I, again, you're going to see this, um, picture of H.H. Holmes and picture, cause it's black and white, but picture him with piercing blue eyes. Yes. The actor that you're talking about. Or like,

Honestly, even Leo would... I want to see Leo play a role like this because he is so hot. He would be so good at this role. And scary. I wonder why he backed down from it. Again, it is kind of weird, but I think we could make it work. H.H. Holmes was like 23 when he started all this. Right. And he was like 34 or something when he died. I mean, hey, makeup and CGI does wonders. Exactly. And also makeup. He doesn't do anything. I mean, there's 40-year-old actors playing high schoolers on CW, so... And it is always troubling to see. But...

This is what? We'll make an exception for Leo. Wow. But crazy. I want to just do a Ram tour so bad and go to Chicago. I do too. We need to go to Chicago. We need to go to Canada, Canadian Rammies. Yes, of course. Of course. What else did we say that we want to go the other day? That like made no sense, but we're like right off. Right.

Yeah, write it off. That's how it works, guys. You just write it off. Write everything off. If it has anything to do with your business. IRS don't come for us. Yeah, please don't. We don't have anything to give to you. Yeah, they're like, we're not concerned about you in the slightest. Like you were last on our list. Literally. Last.

But, oh, Tess, I'm sorry to just upset you. You know, it was the perfect, I feel like I'm so in spooky season now. We hadn't done a murder for a while and the time was now. The time is now. It's always October. You did a great job. Thank you for that. I could tell that it was so well researched. Thank you so much. Check out The Devil in the White City, the book, and we'll do the Chicago World Fair eventually. Yep. As always, let us know what you're interested in, if you have any suggestions for future episodes.

Yes, join our Patreon. I believe it's www.patreon.com slash rightanswersmessily. It's in our show notes. I didn't have to say all that. Look it up. Look it up. Look it up. And reach out to us on social media. Social media. And share on social media. Please. Yes. Please do. Every time you share, you know what it does to us. An angel gets its wings. Literally. A little follower angel is like, oh, hi. Hi, we're here.

Oh, God. Okay. Well, that's my cue. And with that, follow us everywhere. We love you guys. Yes, we love you. Happy Halloween. Yes, send us pictures of your costumes. Yes, dress up like Ram, a Ram character.