Episode 410: Is Porn Use A Problem In Your Relationship?
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You are listening to the Sex and Psychology Podcast, the sex ed you never got in school and won't get anywhere else. I am your host, Dr. Justin Leigh Miller. I am a social psychologist and research fellow at the Kinsey Institute and author of the book, Tell Me What You Want, The Science of Sexual Desire and How It Can Help You Improve Your Sex Life. Have you ever been in a relationship before where either your own or your partner's porn use became a point of conflict? If so, you're not alone.

Porn years seems to be becoming an increasingly big source of relationship problems. So let's talk about it. In today's show, we're going to dive into some of the reasons why so many couples fight about porn, as well as whether porn is really the issue. In many cases, porn is the symptom of an underlying problem with communication or connection. Also, sometimes the fight is really more about masturbation than it is about porn.

We're also going to explore how many people in relationships use porn, why men's use of porn in heterosexual relationships is where we see the most problems, as well as how to resolve issues with porn in relationships. In addition, we'll talk about how we can prevent porn from becoming a relational issue in the first place, and that starts with open conversations about the topic of porn.

I am joined once again by Ashley Weller. She is a human sexuality and health psychology professor at Chapman University in Southern California. Ashley also works in mental health clinical research and has more than 15 years of experience in sex education. She also has a podcast called What's Your Position, which tackles issues surrounding sexuality, relationships, life, and love from a comedic yet educational point of view. This is going to be another fascinating episode. ♪

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Get your ticket to be inspired, educated, and empowered. Note that this conference is open to anyone and everyone. Head over to sexualhealthalliance.com, select the annual sexological conference page, and save your spot today. Okay, Ashley, let's talk about porn and relationships.

Now, porn is something that seems to create a lot of issues for a lot of people. In fact, one study I was looking at before the show found that one in five couples reported that porn had become a source of conflict in their relationships. And that tracks because I've heard from countless sex therapists who have worked with couples where porn has become a big problem area. So why is this such a common issue? Why do so many couples fight about porn?

Because porn is the fantasy. It's the fairy tale. It's like asking the question, why does Disney ruin marriage for all little girls? Because it isn't real. Because it's this horrible representation of sex and

And it's where a majority, I'm so sad to say, a majority of our youth is getting their sex education. So sadly, it is the only teacher that many young men have.

It's where a lot of young men go to engage in masturbation and in fulfilling desires. And it's where a lot of people go in secrecy because if you tell... Who's telling people that they're watching porn? The number of people who watch porn, the range is so wide. That's how we know it is so entrenched in shame. 70% of men and above

about 40% of women in relationships report using porn separately from one another. And I think that is one of the biggest problems is that they're using it separately. And I want to just start out, come right out of the gate and say, I do not think porn is bad in a relationship.

What I do think is bad in a relationship is lying. I think deceit and hiding things from your partner is where we get into trouble. Yeah, I mean, I think you're so right about this issue of shame around porn use. So I shared an article on Twitter

my blog recently that looked at the most common sex secrets that people keep. And if you look at the top five sex secrets people keep from their partners, porn use was in the top five for both men and women, which is very telling of the fact that people feel a lot of shame around their porn use.

And I think that that's one of the reasons why it becomes such a big issue in relationships is that people are doing this thing that they feel like they're not supposed to be doing and then it becomes this big secret. And then when that secret gets discovered, because let's say you have a shared computer and your partner stumbles onto your browser history or you accidentally leave a tab open on your browser, like that's when it becomes a really big issue. And I can't tell you how many emails I've received from people over the years who are like,

I wasn't looking for my partner's porn history, but they left a tab open or there was something in the browser history and it's like, and I discovered they had this sexual interest or that they were watching porn and then it turned into this huge thing. And again, it's because there was that level of secrecy around it and they had never talked about porn before at any point, so there were no established boundaries around it. And that's another thing that leads it to become a big issue is that we just haven't talked about it. So then when it comes up, it's like this big surprise, this secret, and it's like...

I think that that is probably one of the biggest problems. So I do a survey in my human sexuality classes where I ask them, what do you consider cheating? And I list 10 different things. Dancing with a member of the gender that they're attracted to. I thought you were going to say dancing with the stars for some reason. Dancing with the stars is...

Is dancing with the stars cheating? And 95% said yes. Well, watching it without me is cheating, right? That would be so rude. No, but like I list all these crazy, getting a gift from someone of the same gender that your partner is attracted to, liking an Instagram post. The porn one shocked me. 30% of my students said this has been given in the last six years. I give it to every class. So there's probably like, I don't know, 700 responses per,

30% say that it is at least somewhat cheating to watch porn. And when I reveal that statistic, the look on people, and when I say people, I typically mean heterosexual men's faces, is one of absolute fear because they don't realize that their partner considers it cheating, which is

tantamount to the end of a relationship. And I think that it's more so the betrayal of trust that you're not talking about it

Rather than, you know, I told you not to watch porn and you did it anyways. I don't think that that conversation is happening. I really truly believe that a lot of people don't know what porn is, what it looks like. And I honestly think that having an orgasm to someone else, even if this person is never going to be in the vicinity of this human being ever and would never have sex with this partner.

it's still to them some form of cheating or infidelity. I think lying is the bigger problem. And I think that with porn comes deceit for a lot of people. I mean, even people who discuss porn in their relationships. My husband will tell me, I'm going to go rub one out and I know that that means I'm going to go watch porn. I'm not asking him what porn he is watching because I don't want to know. I

I don't want to know. But if I asked, he would tell me. He would ask me to come and sit with him and watch it with him if I wanted to. But there are some people who don't want to know the porn that their partner is watching. And there are a lot of people who don't necessarily want... You can actually go back to the episode that Justin and I did about anime porn and...

listen to the porn about tentacles and monster porn. There are some types of porn that people are going to, or faux-cest is a big one that people are very ashamed of watching and being turned on by. Consensual non-consent is another form of pornography that I think a lot of people would have a difficult time

explaining why that is something that is exciting for them. And I think that this idea of deceit and shame are probably the bigger problem, not porn itself.

Yeah, you know, and you raise a really important point there when it comes to pornography, because what I find in my own research is that people are often going out to porn that represents or reflects their sexual fantasies. And, you know, porn is a way of kind of vicariously living out that fantasy. But most people have never told their fantasies to their partners before. And so porn use then becomes like...

also this secret sexual desire or fantasy that you've had. And so when your partner discovers your porn news, it's not just about the fact that you're watching porn, it's like, "All right, I've learned this whole new thing about you and your sexuality." And that's where I think some of the issues come into play here. But I think also in what you're saying,

You know, the next most logical question here is when porn becomes an issue in the relationship, is the fight really about porn or is it about something else? And I think porn is often the symptom of underlying issues, like say a dead bedroom. Like if you and your partner find yourselves in a sexless relationship, but your partner is still watching porn, you know, a lot of people become resentful in that situation because they're like, well, why aren't they directing or channeling that sexual energy toward me instead?

You know, and my hot take is that in many cases, porn is just the easy thing to blame, but that it's masking some underlying issue like a longstanding sexual disconnection between the partners. And this isn't to say that porn itself is never the problem, just that it's a lot easier to blame porn than some of the deeper issues. And then also to add one further level or layer of complexity to this, is the fight really about porn or is the fight about masturbation? Because...

porn and masturbation go together. Like people aren't just watching porn and not masturbating for the most part. I actually would love to meet a person who just watches porn just, just to watch it. I watch it for the plot. I watch it for the plot. Like for sure. No, I think that that is a really excellent point. I think that there is a lot of issues with,

around this idea that your partner is pleasuring themselves without you and that that is somehow a form of infidelity or somehow a form of betrayal. And I think to your point,

It doesn't even have to be that it's sexless. I think that there is this difference in desire throughout the course of a relationship. And I really love to talk about desire with 18 to 25 year olds, right? Because I say to them, look, you may be a full pedal to the metal at the beginning of the relationship. And anytime your partner walks in the room, you're both hands all over one another, drawn to one another. You wake up in the middle of the night, you want to have sex, but

Get three years, two months, six months, nine years, seven years into it. There may come a point when one of you has the flu. Heaven forbid you have the flu or COVID or you have to go on a work trip for five days or you have children or whatever.

You have a stressful job and you do not have the same level of sexual desire Your partner should not be forced to abstain Because you too are abstaining and this idea that a person should be able to acoustically pleasure themselves without pornography, that's the acoustic version of masturbation by the way is sans porn it's just with your mind and

is difficult for a lot of people, especially in the digital age. We don't all have a vivid imagination. I myself not included, thank you very much. But not everyone has a vivid imagination and can't just conjure up the last time they had sex.

And porn is a very easy way to initiate desire, initiate erection. It can also be used for individuals who are older, who may have a harder time achieving that level of desire. They may not be a starter. They may be a, let's move into this. And porn can be a way to get an erection moving. Porn can be a way to get lubrication flowing. Porn is not the enemy, Justin. Ah. Yeah.

Yes. It is not the enemy, but it's the easy target to blame. It is. And certainly there are negative aspects of porn. Sure. I'm always happy to acknowledge porn is a complicated, complex, nuanced subject. I'm sure that you have episodes where someone has acknowledged that porn might be a problem, but this isn't it. Well, and you did at the very beginning of the show. Porn is a problem in terms of when it serves as the default form of sex education because it is not...

-an educational tool. - Exactly. But it's one of these things where used in some ways, it can be positive in people's lives. Used in other ways, it can be negative. So I think in talking about how to deal with issues related to porn use in relationships, a good starting point is acknowledging just how common porn use is. I think many conflicts around porn boil down to, "My partner shouldn't find anyone other than me attractive," or, "My partner should seek sex with me before they look at porn."

So in other words, I think sometimes, I'm not saying this is all the time, but sometimes there's some insecurity that's at the root. So I think it's helpful to recognize that just because somebody is in a relationship or is married, that doesn't necessarily mean that they're never going to masturbate or look at porn or be attracted to other people ever again. And just because they do any of those things, that doesn't mean that they're no longer attracted to you or that they prefer porn to having sex with you. So I think we need to normalize the fact that

People in relationships, including married people, still masturbate, sometimes still use porn, right? So, you know, I think you mentioned a little earlier, it's very common for people in relationships to watch porn. And in one study I looked at right before the show, published in the Journal of Social and Personal Relationships, it found that 80% of couples had at least one partner who had watched porn in the last month.

And if you break it down by couple members, the number was actually 97% for gay men, 75% for straight men, 56% for lesbians, and 40% for heterosexual women, right? So lots of porn news happening in relationships. I also think it's really sad that heterosexual women are the least likely to report using pornography. Yeah.

The fact that they're the least likely to report it is probably accurate. They probably are the least likely group to use it. And I do know that porn is something that is shameful and taboo. So the numbers are probably skewed lower as far as who is using pornography on a regular basis. I'm sure more people use it than admit to it. But I think that

those numbers should tell you something also. Those numbers should also tell you a story. The fact that 97% of gay men use porn, the fact that what was the heterosexual 80? 75%. 75% of straight men. And then that lesbians are using porn more often than heterosexual women. When we look at those statistics side by side against the orgasm gap,

they're pretty fucking similar. And I think it's important that we teach people porn literacy, um,

alongside like orgasm literacy, right? So the fact that porn is fake and that it's a fairy tale is a great thing to teach people. It should not be taken at face value. It should not be taken as something that you should be able to emulate. I do think it's important to recognize that a lot of individuals in the LGBTQ community see themselves sexually for the first time in porn.

And that's probably why the numbers are so high among LGBTQ individuals over straight individuals, because we see straight sex constantly in mainstream media. We see it in Netflix. We see it in fairy tales. We see sex all the time with straight people. So it's a lot easier for straight people to say, oh, this is what sex should look like. I don't need to go to porn. We still have people using porn as sex education. So that's a problem. But I think heterosexual women are missing out.

I get that, but there's also another layer to, I think, how heterosexual women in particular relate to porn in that a lot of them see pornography as being exploitative to women. That's fair. And this is part of the reason why a lot of straight women actually prefer to watch gay male porn. Oh, yeah. Because they don't have to, like, mentally project themselves onto one of the characters on screen, and they can just, like...

focus on the enjoyment of or the pleasure of the people involved as opposed to thinking about like oh is this woman like did she consent to be here does is she enjoying what's happening and so you know i think women have a more complicated relationship with porn for a lot of reasons but i think yeah we'll get back to this more in a little in a moment because i want to talk a little bit about ethical porn and how it might be a solution for some of these issues

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I want to dive into the gendered aspect here a little deeper for a moment, because when porn use becomes an issue in relationships, it's almost always men's porn use that's the problem. You know, I can't think of a single case I've heard of where a man was upset about his wife or his girlfriend's porn use. And I'm not saying that that has never happened. It's just that if it does, we don't hear much about it.

Now, you know, men on average, as we've said, are much more likely to abuse porn and they use it more frequently than women. So that alone is one reason why men's porn use is more likely to be an issue. You know, they're simply the ones who are using it the most. But I think it's deeper than that. So why do you think porn use becomes more of a problem in relationships?

for men than it does for women in terms of their own use. And, you know, another layer to add to this is like, porn use rarely becomes a problem in LGBTQ relationships. It's really a problem in heterosexual monogamous relationships with regard to men's porn use. So I think a lot of this has to do with what we talked about at the beginning when it comes to secrecy. So I found a study that

that said one in four men hide their porn use. And I think that this is starting from a place where we are not even asking our partners if they watch porn, like when we start dating. So you automatically assume your partner will be mad if you are watching pornography. And so you hide that from them.

Because you think, as a man, I have to fulfill these sexual desires and my girlfriend or wife or whomever can't fulfill the desires that I have, so I'm going to utilize porn and masturbate and I masturbate and she doesn't. And we have all of these assumptions about our partners that we don't clarify ahead of time. Do you masturbate? How often? Do you watch porn?

How often? What kind of porn are you watching? And we don't include our partners in these sexual scenarios that they could actually be a part of.

I think another layer to that is insecurity on both the part of the man and the woman. If we're just talking about heterosexual relationships, because as you said, it doesn't tend to be a big problem in gay relationships. It doesn't tend to be a large problem in lesbian relationships. Where we're seeing this problem is in heterosexual relationships. So there's clearly something going on when we are raising young girls and young boys and

Whether we're telling boys, oh, you can watch porn, but don't tell the women that you're watching it. And we're telling young girls, young girls don't watch porn. And if a man watches porn, it means you're not giving him what he wants. So there's this degradation, this feeling of I'm not living up to my end of the bargain. I'm not doing this right.

I'm failing in some way. And when we feel like we're failing, we become defensive. And when we become defensive, we start to make assumptions about the other person. And we're no longer curious about what they desire. And we know as scientists and researchers, our desires change constantly as we age and as we get exposed to new things.

And it's really fun to learn about your partner and what their desires are. I have a fun story. Do you want to hear it? Oh, sure. So when I decided that I wanted to teach human sexuality, I read your book.

And I was a fangirl for a very, everyone knows this. I'm like madly in love with you. And I read your book and I found that threesomes were a constant fantasy among everyone. And among the populace, among the populace. And I came in to this kitchen where I'm sitting right now and looked at my husband and said, I want you to tell me what porn you watch.

And he was like, okay, really? And I was like, yes, because I watch lesbian porn.

And he was like, you do? And I was like, yes. And I also watched threesome porn. And he was like, me too. And it blew our minds that the kinds of porn that we were watching separately with both of us knowing that we watched porn, but the kinds of porn we watched separately were actually the kinds of porn that we wanted to watch together. And it changed our relationship.

And we have been together for 20 years. So this isn't like a new relationship. We changed the dynamic of our sexual relationship because we recognized that our fantasies over time had changed. Your partner isn't the same person they were an hour ago, let alone seven years ago.

And you should be constantly asking your partner about their desires and their fantasies. And we don't teach this. And so poor women are being told if your partner is using porn, it's because you're not doing something right. And men are being told you should use porn so you don't cheat on your wife.

You know, what I heard from all of that is that my book saved your marriage. It did. So you'll be invited to the vow renewal and you are now part of our marriage. Cheers to you. Cheers. And I'm going to be using that clip to sell books in the future. Yeah.

Perfect. Consent granted. So how do we deal with a problem like porn in relationships? You know, this is a big question because how and why porn became an issue in the first place is going to affect the path forward. So let's consider like a couple of scenarios. So let's say someone is uncomfortable with their partner's porn use because they believe porn is exploitative to women. Is this a problem that we can fix by, say, looking to the world of ethical porn?

Absolutely. I think that if you really get down to what it is about pornography that bothers you, so we break down the, I hate porn. You shouldn't watch porn. Okay, well, let's break that down a little bit. What is it exactly that is bothering you? Let's use our words.

If it is that we see a lot of degradation towards the female body, right? Towards the female form. We see that there is violence against women in mainstream porn. Absolutely agree with this. Let's find some ethical porn sites that we can utilize.

I love, now I'm on the spot. Erica Lust. I love her. I've also written. Paulita Poppel. Yeah, love that one too. Got more. There's so many that are. Lustery. Yeah, that one as well.

Bellissima. Bellissima, yeah. Yeah, love that one too. I've written copy for after porn, like how you can read about what was going on in the porn. And there's so many great ethical porn sites. And to be honest, we should all be watching ethical porn anyways, because that means the performer is getting paid. So ethical doesn't just mean that women are treated like humans.

Right? It's not just that. Ethical doesn't just mean that everyone's pleasure is valued. Ethical also means everyone's getting paid for what they're doing. And like, you're not just pirating random sex videos off the internet. So if really what you're worried about is the way that women are being treated on that...

or like that your erotic platform in your brain and your erotic template is being changed and you now need more violence in order to achieve orgasm. Yeah. Look into ethical porn and, and dial down the violence and the degradation that's taking place. Don't search for that. Search for more racism,

women-friendly, women-pleasure-focused terms in your porn search if you aren't going to choose to pay for your porn. Yeah, and for folks who want to learn more about the world of ethical porn, there are previous episodes of this podcast where I've interviewed Erica Lust and Paulita Papel, both of whom are ethical porn directors and can give you an inside look at the world of ethical porn. And one of the benefits of ethical porn is that it tends to be a place where you see more real bodies as opposed to

to the kind of exaggerated bodies and genitals that you see in a lot of mainstream porn. And so, you know, it's more representative in a lot of ways of what people's bodies and what sex looks like in the real world. So lots of reasons to check it out.

So I think there's also a lot that can be done in advance to prevent porn from becoming a problem area by simply having open and honest conversations about porn and your sexual values. But porn, like sex in general, is a tricky topic of conversation for most people, so they just avoid it.

But if you never talk about what your boundaries are around porn, you can't really be that surprised when those boundaries get crossed, right? You can't just assume that, well, I don't watch porn, so that means my partner doesn't watch porn either, right? Not a good assumption to make. So early on in your relationship, you and your partner should have a porn talk. And you should also talk about your other sexual values that are important to you and also what infidelity even means to you, right? Don't you agree? Yeah.

I do. I was just going to say, this all starts from a conversation that you should be having before you get into this relationship. There's no way the person you're going to date has never watched porn. That's just...

In this society, that's not possible. So asking a question about... Well, it's unlikely. Not impossible. Unlikely. I'm going to go... I mean, like, honestly, if you think about what we would have considered porn 20 years ago is...

What is on Netflix right now? Like, Oh, sure. We're watching sexual interactions between people and innuendos of people. And, um,

Like what used to be on HBO late at night in the 1990s is now an episode of you on Netflix. Like it's... An episode of me? No. An episode of Justin. I would watch that. Shit. Let's go. I mean,

You know, I've been working on my sexual memoirs lately. And, you know, it's funny. I was writing the other day about my own, like, first experience encountering porn and how it was, you know, vintage issues of Playboy from, like, the 60s and 70s. And, like, you know, for me, like, my first exposure to porn was just seeing some

breasts and bushes. And compared to what people today are seeing, their first exposure is dramatically, dramatically different. And so, yeah, I mean, the nature of porn in terms of how it affects us and what it means and also what it means for relationships, I think is very different just given the way that porn itself has evolved and changed so much over time. I think the definition of porn

has changed based on the media and not the media like news, but like the way we present it, whether it be in art, whether it be in clay, whether it be in paintings, whether it be in photography, whether it be in video, um,

The media with which we use pornography has changed over time. And so when I say it is almost impossible for you to have never seen porn, I really truly mean it is almost impossible for you. Yeah, even if you're not intentionally seeking it out. Exactly. And so it's important to have this conversation at the onset of the relationship and really clearly establish that

what your expectations and needs are, I would like to throw in that I think it's really important to know your attachment style when it comes to pornography and a relationship because anxiously attached individuals...

I myself included different people, different attachment styles can have different reactions to porn use. And it's really important to bring that up to your partner. Know thyself, right? Know what you want, but also remember your partner does not have the same desire as you today, tomorrow, yesterday in six hours, in five hours, you guys might line up at some point and that's fantastic, but everyone's desire is moving throughout the day.

And releasing that, releasing your orgasm, having the dopamine, serotonin, the oxytocin, it isn't a slight against you. It is your partner taking control of their day. It's your partner alleviating menstrual cramps. It's your partner getting rid of a headache. It's your partner getting rid of tension before a big meeting.

releasing an orgasm, again, back to this question of, is it the porn or is it masturbating? We really need to narrow that down for sure, because masturbation is not the enemy. Porn also is not the enemy, but understanding what your relationship with both of those are prior to getting into a long-term relationship is imperative for your mental health and for the wellbeing of your relationships. And honestly, difficult conversations are

are what make a strong relationship.

Yeah. So I think, you know, the path forward in terms of like how you deal with porn and your relationship is going to look very different for different couples, different people in relationships, because what it is that leads porn to become an issue is going to be very different. And, you know, so sometimes it's an issue of working through attachment, anxiety or insecurity, because sometimes that is what is really at the root of the disagreement around porn use.

You know, other times it's around those concerns about exploitation of women and pornography. And in some cases, you know, it can also be maybe one partner has actually developed a compulsive relationship with their porn use, you know. And if your partner is using porn in a compulsive way where it's like spiraling out of control and it's starting to affect every facet of their life,

you know, that's a very different story that's going to require a very different kind of solution for it. But no matter what the root cause of the issue is, I think speaking with a certified licensed sex therapist can be a really helpful path forward if the self-help solutions aren't working and you and your partner are in an impasse, you know, talking to a licensed professional, again, look for a certified one, ASEC certified specifically to ensure they're sex positive, you know, and don't buy into the whole porn addiction myth

that's out there. Make sure you're speaking to the right person so that they're not ending up shaming you for your poor news and instead are providing you with healthy coping tools.

I really find it frustrating. Again, I'm looking up research and I'm typing in how to utilize porn in a relationship. So many websites, Marriage First, Family and the Family, Friends of the Family, Friends of the Church, whatever, are all coming back and saying, porn is the enemy, porn is the problem. And I'm like, you guys, it is a... And I know that there is a very large...

section of our group of people, Justin, who say, hey, porn is addicting and let's talk about how we can treat this addiction and sex as an addiction. And there's another group of us who say, there's a larger issue here underneath that that probably needs to be dissected. Don't give your money to snake oil salesmen.

There is absolutely a pornography problem in this world. AI porn is creepy. And VR porn is weird, too. And that's just a whole other level of like, what is going on with that? That's an interesting one that we should maybe do in the future. Next episode. Perhaps. I don't know if I'm going to buy those goggles and I don't know if I'm going to invest in that. You made me watch...

MILF manner. And I don't know if I can watch that in VR. But I think that there is a lot to be said for really undoing the layers of what is happening. Is it affecting erectile function?

Is it affecting your sex drive? Is it affecting how long it takes you to orgasm? Is it affecting the positive relationships you have with your partners? Or is it really stress relief? Is it really because you and your partner are on different levels of desire? Is it because...

you and your partner are long distance or because your partner works long hours. And there's so many layers and caveats that I think really need to be examined by a licensed professional and not someone who's just going to outright say, your porn use is a problem or, you know,

your lack of desire for your partner is a problem. There's so much more to it. And if you can get on board with your partner and discuss what porn is to you and how you utilize it and possibly use it together in order to create more desire or to show fantasies, and this goes beyond what we are even talking about, but if...

If for some reason, let's say your partner wants to have a threesome. I use this Venn diagram model in my classroom. Very archaic. I use a whiteboard. I don't know if you know this term, but I do a Venn diagram where I'm like, okay, here is a threesome. Like this person wants a threesome and this person doesn't.

where do they line up? And that could be porn. And you could maybe watch a threesome or watch someone attractive on a porn masturbate and talk about how you would treat them if they were in the bedroom with you and incorporate your partner's fantasies because we all want our partners to feel better. We all want our partners to be excited and have a good time and

it isn't just about us. And it's kind of selfish to say, my partner should only be attracted to me. My partner should only want to have sex with me. That's literally one of the most selfish things I've ever heard. And I can't, it's such a hot take. I hope that no one is mad at you. Sometimes I feel like I give hot takes and then you lose like a million followers and I feel like it's terrible. I think the idea that

one person is only going to find you attractive for the rest of their life is probably unrealistic. That gets back to the fairy tale idea. So if it's your expectation, it's just going to be a very hard one to meet, let's just say. Yeah. That's a much nicer way of saying what I just said. Thanks. Well, thank you so much for this amazing conversation, Ashley. It was a pleasure to have you here. Can you please tell my listeners where they can go to learn more about you and your work?

Absolutely. So I am whatsyourpositionpodcast.com and you can always message me on whatsyourpositionpodcast on Instagram. I love chatting with people. As a matter of fact, two of your listeners sent me emails and let me know that they found me and love me because of you. So big hearts to them and to you. Anytime, whatsyourpositionpodcast is where I'm always at.

All right. And I'll be sure to include thanks to all of that in the show notes. Thank you again so much for your time. I really appreciate having you here. Thank you. Thank you for listening. To keep up with new episodes of this podcast, visit my website, sexandpsychology at sexandpsychology.com or subscribe on your favorite platform where I hope you'll take a moment to rate and review the show. If you listen on Apple podcasts, please consider becoming a sex and psychology premium subscriber to enjoy ad-free listening for just $3.99 a month.

You can also follow me on social media for daily sex research updates. I'm on Blue Sky and X at Justin Laymiller and Instagram at Justin J. Laymiller. Also, be sure to check out my book, Tell Me What You Want. Thanks again for listening. Until next time.