Jasmiyah and Tasmiyah Whitehead
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what's going on everybody my name is mara and i'm jazz and welcome to our very first episode of sisters who kill oh my gosh we finally made it it took a long time it did it did we're here we're queer we're ready to start our podcasting career all of it all of it

So we are two best friends that are obsessed with true crime. We discuss it all the time. We love quite a few true crime podcasts as well as all the true crime that you can watch on television. But something that we noticed was true crime has a large spectrum. And we decided that we wanted to pinpoint on black femmes that are the aggressor in these true crime stories. You know, somebody asked me, they said,

I was telling them about this podcast and they said, do you feel like black women are underrepresented even in murder? Black women are underrepresented in everything. Everything. And I think that... And I was talking to someone else and they were like, well...

When you look it up and it's, you know, a nigga. Well, when you look it up, it's just going to be black women that are killing they spouse because they mad. And I was like, actually, the research that we've done, we haven't come across hardly any. I mean, yes, it happens, but...

That is, there is such a wide range of why people kill, crimes of passion, crime of opportunity, anything. And I think that's my favorite part to get into, is why. Mm-hmm. Why things happen. What pushed them, what was the catalyst to get here? Exactly, and I think that that's why this story is so important, because it poses the question of when horrible crimes are committed, why?

How is the person who, or in this case, people who committed the crime portrayed, are there other factors involved? How are they pushed over the edge? And how does their race and their gender specifically help form their story for the public eye? Yeah.

If you're listening to this, you probably already know what I'm about to say. That today is the day for you to start your podcast. You have everything that you need. Your computer, a little microphone, and Spotify for podcasters. It is the all-in-one platform where you can host, edit, and record your podcast and distribute it everywhere. Where you're listening right now, you can have your podcast there. I promise. For real. And it's free. And you can make some money off of your podcast. For free. Free.

Free money. Free money is out there. Just go get it by starting your podcast today. So today's episode, we are first going to get into the

who we're talking about we have a couple of main players i'm a theater person everybody so bear with me so these are our players in our story so first we have della frazier so della frazier is the great grandmother of jasmine and tasmia whitehead and they're the grandmother to nikki whitehead and the mother to linda whitehead so keep up i promise we'll keep repeating these names

Murderesses. Murderesses.

I love it. I want you to put an E-S on the end of that, but yeah. Our murderesses, twins Jasmine and Tasmia Whitehead. So that brings us to our twins, Jasmine and Tasmia Whitehead, who are called Jazz and Taz. Obviously not the Taz that is the host of this podcast. As my best friend is not a murderer yet. Yes.

So Jazz and Taz are identical twins and they are the daughter of Nikki Whitehead. They are the granddaughter of Linda Whitehead. They are the great-granddaughters of Della Frazier. So when I tell you they are twins, the only way that you can tell them apart is because Jazz has a mole on her face and Taz does not. So other than that, they are completely identical.

Okay, so I think before we get into any more, I think the first thing that was the catalyst to this story was the family history. Sure. So if we go back through these characters, none of the mothers raised their children until about the age of 12 or 13.

So Della did not raise Linda until that age. Linda did not raise Nikki until Nikki reached that age. And Nikki did not raise the twins until they reached about that age. On their own, yes, absolutely. So I think that is a key contributor to keep in mind throughout this story. It's a history of family trauma going on in here. Right. So Nikki Whitehead, who is the mother, she was born Jarmeka Yvonne Whitehead. And according to her friend Yucca, who has a book,

We'll get into that later. Who has a book about this crime. She kind of, like, renamed herself Nikki after the Prince song, Darling Nikki. And you know that song, right? Because you're a huge Prince fan. I am the daughter of a huge Prince fan. Right. You're the daughter of a huge Prince fan. So, um...

Darling Nikki is about this, you know, promiscuous, out here, doing her thing, Darling Nikki. So she was under the care of her grandmother, Della, the majority of her life.

And she partied, she was in and out of the house. And so by the time that she was 17 years old in 1993, she found out that she was pregnant. And if teenage pregnancy wasn't enough, it wasn't until she was in labor that she found out that she was having twins. Could you imagine? Oh my God. They're like, keep pushing. It's like, no, she's out. And it's like, no, no, no, there's another one in there. So the twins were like hiding behind each other. So

Nikki had no idea until she was leg wide open that she was actually having twins. So clearly Nikki was not ready to be a mother. Luckily, she had the support of her grandmother, Della, to not only take care of her, but to take care of her twin daughters too. While they're all in the same house, the twins' authority figure was their great grandmother. And their mother was more like a friend. So, um...

They were all being disciplined by the same woman. So there wasn't a, like, clear mother figure other than Della, the great-grandmother. Like, that was the adult. And Nikki was, I guess, the fun one who came in and out. Right. So Alice Queen reported in the Rockdown Newton Citizen that Della stated that her granddaughter was a person who liked to come and go as she pleased. And she did that, even though the twins were there. So let's jump to the year 2007. Okay.

Taz and Jazz are 13 years old. They're still living with their great-grandmother, Della. And the mother is now living in Conyers with her boyfriend. She actually said her boyfriend wanted them to move and he wanted to have a family. And he was like, bring your girls over, move in, like, let's get real about this shit, right? So... Wanted to make it happen, Captain. Right, settle down. He was older, too. So, like, I think he had at least 15 years on her. Let's go at least 10. Okay.

At least 10 years on her. So the twins loved living with their great-grandmother and did not want to move in with their mom. They were, one, transferred into a whole other city. Like, Rockdale is not near Clarkston. It's not. It's not. And for people that are outside of Georgia, they're like, oh, it's Georgia. It's Atlanta. They are two totally different cities, two totally different environments. Mm-hmm.

So, throughout their life, you know, the twins were responsible. They're straight-A students. They're in extracurriculars. They each play an instrument. They're in ballet. Like, they're involved. They're intelligent.

They're even said to be polite. Yeah, they're very well-behaved girls. But the pinpoint of change is when their mom was like, hey, y'all are coming here. We're going to make this family thing happen. And the girls were like, ah, no, that's not going to happen. And so then that's when throughout that year, there was like a storm brewing in the Whitehead household, the Whitehead and Whitehead.

truck driver's household and boyfriend's household. So on June 28, 2008, this is kind of where we can start pinpointing some major conflicts where the police actually had to intervene. So Jazz sneaks out of the house with her boyfriend. And then when she returns to the house, Nikki calls 911 because her and the twins had gotten into a fight. So the girls are starting to see other older boys. They're starting to sneak out. They're starting to just do their own thing without...

Really thinking about the authority. You know, when you're coming into adulthood, and I think it's very hard when your adult figure... Was once a friend. Yeah. Was once a friend. And I think that it's like, oh...

Because my... Like, for example, my mom was always a mom figure. You know what I'm saying? She was always an authoritarian. So I always knew that her word was bond. But... You even see, like, on TV, you know, like, stories where the mom has died and the older sister has to now become the parent. And there's that conflict between, you're my sister, you're not my mom, but I've been raising you. You know what I'm saying? Right, right, right. And I think that is the same type of conflict that was happening in this house. So...

Nikki and the girls get into a fight. The police arrive, and Nikki says that the twins attacked her. So they're like, oh, this is a fight. This is a knockdown, drag out fight. And so the police arrive, and Nikki says the twins attacked her. Okay. And the twins are like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. She attacked us. Like, we are defending ourselves. We're in this house. We don't even want to be here. And she attacked us. Yeah.

They're like, we just wanted to go to our grandma's house, and it just went out of control. Right. So the officer on the scene was Officer Maya Scruggs. A white officer? Obviously. A white female officer. So let's just call her Karen. Let's call her Karen.

Let's just call her a parent. No, so, um, so Myra Scruggs comes to the situation. Yes, you guys were drinking wine if you didn't hear that. She comes to the situation and then she leaves after everything calms down, but she kind of feels like everything, she feels uneasy, right? She thinks that something is wrong. She's like, mm, this was kind of tense. I didn't arrest anybody. I want to make an important note about how she described it. She says she checks out the scene and she can tell that the twins were well taken care of.

The reason she said this was because their hair was done and they had nice clothes, which does that equate being well taken care of? Does that equate being well taken care of? Because like... Again, focusing on black people, I know plenty of families or people who get things as apologies. Yes. So the more nice things you have, the more shit things you went through. You know what I mean? I was just... There's this game in my car. We should play it. And it's called Black Card Revoked. And it's a card game. But it's like...

what ways does a black mom apologize? And it's buy you something. And it's, do you want to go get some food? Come on, let's go shopping. Um, did you do, let me check your homework or something nice, something nice, but it's never an apology. It's never, I'm in the wrong. Let's have a conversation. I'm a human being. You're a human being, especially now, especially with teenage girls with their mother or turning into young women. So, um,

She feels like the scene isn't right. She sees that the girls are taken care of. She thinks, oh, these girls are just so great. So she leaves. And then she kind of just stays around the area just to make sure. But literally, like, five minutes later, like, five minutes after this happens, after Officer Scruggs leaves, she says...

Nikki comes running out of the house. She's screaming and yelling. And Officer Stroik says, quote, Nikki is running out of the house with a courtless phone in her hand. Hysterical. Okay. So let's stop there. So we already know that there are two sides to every story, right? There's your side, there's my side, and there's the truth, right? So three sides. Right. Three sides. So that's the two. I meant three. So there's three sides to every story. So in this case, it's Nikki's side, the twins' side, and the truth, which really honestly may never be known. Right.

So, I'm going to say Nikki's side. Okay. So, according to Nikki, Officer leaves. Nikki's tired. A lot of riling up has just happened. So, she goes and she sits on the couch and she's just exhausted. She doesn't say anything. It's just she's overwhelmed. So, she sits on the couch. She's exhausted. What the fuck am I going to do with my twin girls? And as soon as she sits down...

literally as soon as she just thinks, oh my goodness, the girls start physically attacking her, beating her ass. And so she is running, trying to get back to a police officer. That's why she has that cordless phone to call the police again. That's Nikki's side of the story. Do I understand

She's fighting, or they come inside, and then the mom just flips and says, y'all ain't going nowhere. They want to go to their grandma's house, or their great-grandmother's house, Della's house. And she's like, y'all not going anywhere. Y'all stay in here. Apparently, she starts beating the twins again, per their story. That's when the officer comes back around, and the officer says, the mom, of course, like Mariah said, is hysterical. She says her hair is, like, a little frustrated. She looks frazzled. She says the twins are calm. Yep.

Cool as a cucumber. Coherent. They're speaking calmly and clearly. Like, oh, she did this and da-da-da-da. She says her hair is not riled up or it's still in impeccable shape or whatever. They still look well taken care of. Which is kind of weird to me. And I'm not saying that obviously we don't know what the truth is, but... Are we being objective? Are we being objective, right? Like, if you and I got into a fight and I'm the aggressor...

both of our hairs are still going to get messed up. If I'm still, if I'm whooping your ass into the ground, your hair is going to get messed up. My hair is going to get messed up because there's going to be some type of, you're going to be on the defense, but the girls had no scratch, no marks whatsoever. And Nikki also had some defensive wounds. So they were like, Oh, it had to be the twins. So the officer then arrested twins and she charges him with simple battery. Yes. So three days later they have their day in court. Okay.

And that is on July 1st, 2008. They're in court. They asked if they were being true and if they were being defiant. Of course they say no. They're also flipping the blame onto Nikki. They mentioned how Nikki is a party girl, how she tries to enforce rules, but can't and how she's basically a hypocrite. She's saying, oh, we can't drink. We can't smoke. We can't go out and party, but she's smoking weed in the house. She's drinking all the time. She's out. And then Jazz brings up this huge rift in their relationship that happened because Jazz

Okay, so what happened was, you know, the twins...

were dating older boys like their mom. They were smoking like their mom, just doing shit that they weren't supposed to be doing at the age of 13 or whatever, which, you know, granted. But apparently while the mom was at work or sleep, they would sneak boys into the house. And the mom saw evidence of this, like the windows being open and stuff like that. So she asked around and found out. She confronted the twins and she was like, y'all been sneaking niggas over to the house, right? She's like, first they denied it.

Then, when she pressed them about it, they said yes, and she's like, y'all been having sex? And they're like, no. But that's when Jazz says, well, I had sex before, but I was raped. And I guess Nikki took it as, you wasn't raped, you was just being fast. Which is hella traumatic. Like, I... Isn't that what every rape victim fears, is like not being believed? But not being...

Fear of not being believed by the police, by doctors, by whatever, but not being believed by your own mother. Like, that's completely wild to me. Especially somebody who's trying to enforce themselves, newly enforce themselves as your mother in your life. Right.

Because take it from somebody that was sneaking niggas in and out of the house, that was doing shit she had no fucking business doing. Like, I know that I was doing shit that I had no business, and, like, I admitted to my mom that I was having sex at one point in high school. But if at any point that I told her, like, yes, but...

Yes, but she would have been up in arms and called the troops. I just know if I would have said to my mom, I was not running around wild or whatever, but...

I didn't start running around wild until 2011. I mean, but even in the twins' sake, regardless, if I brought rape up to my mom, my mom would sit down and have a real talk with me and be like, this is serious. So if you mean it, mean it, you know, but like, what's up? She would be very clear about the facts, make sure that everything is in order before I go out and start fussing heads. Right, because I'm about to go after their ass. So you might want to make sure you're telling me the truth. Right, right. And...

for it to be completely dismissed. Like, that's really, really horrible. So the court orders that the girls are placed in the home with great-grandmother Della. So they got what they wanted. So they got what they wanted. So hooray for the girls. They get what they wanted. So now we're going to jump to December 12, 2009. The girls are back in court.

They have been living with Della, their great-grandmother, during this time. And they're still basically doing their own thing. They're going out. They're having boyfriends that are much older. Rumor has it that they were stealing money out of Della's purse. It also was rumored that Della started putting a lock on her bedroom door to keep the girls from stealing from her. So, basically, this is their great-grandmother. You know, she's...

This family also has a history of having children very young, but this is still a great-grandmother. She's still much older than it. She basically says, look, I am getting too old to chase after these twins. They're way too out of control for me. And I get that, you know? Which, sorry to cut you off, but that statement seems so weird to me. Because if she went to the court and said, I cannot handle these twins, why throughout the rest of the story does it feel like she impedes the whole process of

of the mother getting the twins. You know what I'm saying? I think she just really, maybe it was a moment of exhaustion for her, you know, but I think at the end of the day, she knew what the twins were up against. Or maybe she was just looking for something more, like maybe more help or more support or whatever. I don't know. Yeah, because I feel like the court system should be able to give that support to families that are literally in the courthouse begging for it. Even the police!

Why are you not helping? Because, I mean, think about it. Child Protective Services, they are overworked. They are underpaid. They have...

They are working day in and day out, taking their work home with them. So it is so easy for cases like this, for girls that are in the court systems, in and out of the court systems, saying, hey, we need help. Our family needs help. It's so easy for them to get slipped through the cracks. Because you have to understand, throughout these court proceedings, they were assigned, they didn't just get

moved to their grandmother they had court-ordered therapy yep not just the twins either the mom did della did and then they had to have family counseling too but it also said within a year they had six different therapists so how are you wanting to do it how can you have a consistent relationship and build that trust because with the therapist they're always going to start at square one so we are back starting at square one we need to get to square 50 and we need to we

We need to be actively doing the work to get there. On top of that, notes from the therapist are saying there's a disproportionate amount of responsibility on the twins, which you have to think, what does that mean? Yep. Like...

did they have too many chores or was it that their responsibility was to also look at, look after their mom who came home drunk in the middle of the night. You know what I'm saying? As 13 year olds, that's a disproportionate amount of responsibility. That's a lot. That's not divulged because of course it's counseling session. But another thing that was mentioned from the counselors in court was that

None of the adults in this situation are taking responsibility for the chaos that they bring to the family. And this family thrives on chaos. From the counselor, this family thrives on chaos. Yeah, conflict is how they function. So Nikki is in court, and she says that she has...

done therapy. She actually passes a drug test and she says she wants the twins back. Bring them back to me. And then she also says, so this is, remember, this is December of 2009.

She says, she claims that the only reason that Della wants them is for financial gain. And so she's like, I'll take them back. And she passes the drug test. So they're saying, okay, we'll send them back. This is where my mind blew. And I am completely, everybody, I am completely speculating. This is all Mariah just allegedly. December 2009, and you want them girls back, and you're claiming that Della wants them for financial gain. You know where my mind went? Tax season. Mm-hmm.

niggas are going to try to claim a kid during tax season. And this is completely speculation, everybody. None of this is going to be written in any of our source material that you'll find at the end of the show. It's right on time, though. I mean, like, technically, the kids do not have to be in their custody to claim them, though. But who has...

Isn't it whoever is the guardian at the time? Because right now, isn't Della specifically the guardian? So Della has to take that to... Not at the time, but at the time that you're filing for taxes. So had they been with Della throughout that year and she was... You know, they ask, what is it written on your tax form? Who is their... Dependents? Dependents. I was about to say, I got a kid. Who are they dependent upon? You know what I'm saying? So you don't even technically...

have to live in that house. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's plenty of families. They're going to split their baby and the mommy and daddy ain't together and they'll be like, alright nigga, you can claim them this year.

And I'll get them next year. So, I mean, and this could be completely wrong, but, like, my mind went straight to tax season. And the fact that Nikki was like, oh, last year I had them for taxes. They left for the year. And now I need them to come on back up over here. Because, I mean, I can go downstairs and ask your mom real quick what tax is like for twins. Because you're a twin. Oh, we forgot to say, Taz is a twin. Still not the Taz in this. Still not the same. It's just that you get double. Double.

Everything with twins comes in two. And so, like, so dependents, you get paid a certain amount per dependent. A bit of money. Not a groundbreaking. You know, but also, I feel like Nikki. So, you know, when you get into, you're like,

Nikki, having this kid so young, she's got to be approaching her 30s or just entering her 30s. And that's when people try and get their lives together. So she's probably like, I'm a mother. You know what I'm saying? I'm going to take care of these kids. She's probably forcing herself to grow up and change. And actually, her friend Yucca mentions that in an interview that she did. She just wanted to step up and establish that she's changing. They said she even went back to calling herself Drameca.

There's a right and wrong way of doing that. It is. You know what I'm saying? And just saying, like, I've changed, so everybody needs to change around with me. Kids need structure. Kids need structure, but also, like, change doesn't come with you just saying, like, I'm going to change. Action. Real action. And people tend to take feelings away from children because they're children. And that's not fair. Yeah. It's not fair at all. So...

After this court proceeding and she passes the drug test, the court orders the custody of the girls will go back to the mother.

This pissed off the twins. It infuriated them. There is nothing that they want at least than to be back in that house. So... In fact, at the courthouse, Jazz said, and I quote, if I have to go live with you again, I'm going to kill you. At the courthouse. Now, okay, she didn't say it in the courtroom, but she said it at the courthouse, and it was loud enough that everybody heard it. Witnesses. Multiple witnesses said that. And...

Even then, even when that was said, even that is a threat. You know what I'm saying? And it should be handled accordingly. And especially, I don't care if you were in court session or not. You're in the halls of family court. Who was not concerned enough? You know what I'm saying? Right. To turn around. Cause that seems like a valid reason to turn around, go right back in the courthouse and be like, we have a threat right here. Everybody's like,

They killed their mother. They killed their mother. But like... It wasn't random. It wasn't out of nowhere. It was build up. This is 2000 and... The first arrest was 2008. We're in 2009. And we're not done, yeah. And we have not even got to the murder yet. Everybody is still alive.

they prepared to return home with their mother. The court said they had to go home. So now jump to January 5th, 2010. So we are in the top of the new year and the girls are now heading back to the house. So remember right now, Nikki is living with her boyfriend who is a trucker. His name is Robert Head. So, you know, I don't know anybody that knows truckers. They're home for a little while, then they're away for most of the time. And so they're in and out of the house. So she is pretty much has most of the time has this house to herself, her and the twins.

Let it also be known that this was a two-week trial period. Right. So they were supposed to return to court two weeks from the date of move-in to see how things were going. Right. So this is supposed to be like, see how things go. But it also says that Nikki was a bit concerned about how the first night would go. That she actually asked her mother, Linda Whitehead, to stay over because she just...

Wasn't sure. For somebody that was so sure, I'm so ready to have the girls back, she was still apprehensive. So according to that AJC article, which is the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, when Linda Whitehead came over, Linda said, you know, the night was uneventful. The twins didn't leave their room at all. So that's basically normal, angry teenager behavior. Now we're in the days of the girls back in the house. This is where our research gets a little sticky. Especially...

Okay. Go ahead. Go ahead. Shit's not making sense because I know I went to school with these girls. Okay. For sure. And Tucker is not mentioned. Tucker is mentioned in AJC because they interview, I'm not going to say the names, but some people that we know were like interviewed and quoted in the AJC articles. And yeah, so go ahead.

But yeah, so basically a lot of the papers say they were transferred from Newton to Rockdale. They were transferred from Newton or Rockdale to Tucker. And that is only written in like two articles, but I promise you. I had civics with Dad, so I know that that bitch was there, okay? I promise you. Tazzy and I both went to Tucker. There's a reason why we chose this as our first episode.

Them girls, them hoes was there. Okay. So don't believe them. It was Tucker. Okay. So the twins were enrolled from one of these Rockdale County schools. And it was said that the family was very disruptive. They said the process, and this is on the 6th, a day after they moved in with their mom. They said the process should have taken about 30 minutes, but it took hours.

Then the next day, they were being enrolled, disenrolled. But this time, the people who commented said that it was Nikki, the mom, who was disruptive. And she was asked to step out. And so...

I've heard speculations that maybe it was Della, the great-grandmother, not wanting to give up the information needed to transfer. Right. Like, was she, again, impeding Nikki being the mother to these kids? Because if you listen to comments from Linda, Della's daughter, Nikki's mother, it was Nikki...

And Linda versus Della and the twins. Right. Like, that was basically the family battle. Then we fast forward to the 9th. They've been here four days. And Taz is being disruptive. Mom called the cops to de-escalate. Nothing serious went down. And then we have the welcome party. Because Nikki's so determined to be a mom. Right.

So, Nikki throws the twins a welcome home party. So, this party is people from the family are there, family, close friends. They had food, played games, everything that you expect at a welcome home party. So, now the girls are back in the house. Well, I mean, at Robert's house because it's not technically Nikki's house. And it's said that Taz participated in the party. She was playing games. She interacted. But Jazz...

was not really having that shit. She was not, uh, she was pretty standoffish. And then eventually she ended up getting into a shoving, a pushing match with one of her

and it was actually Taz then that called the cops. Now, Taz participated, Jazz got into the shoving match, Taz called the cops. I think another interesting comment that Yaka made was that Nikki would say, Taz, I can sometimes get Taz, but if I could just break through Jazz, we could get here. You know what I'm saying? Like,

She was like, Taz, she might fuck with me, she might not, but Jazz was that brick wall that she couldn't get through. And it's showing again here, but we also must remember that Jazz is the one who said that she was raped and not believed. Right. The 12th comes, the weekend's ending. Things have been pretty cool since the party. Makes us wonder, is it because Robert Head was still home? Because he then leaves to head to Indiana for work. Remember, he's a truck driver. Right. So...

He is on road. The twins say that the mom came home drunk this night and they were up late due to their mom arguing with her second boyfriend. Oh. Joe Carter. Boyfriend number two. That one.

So, Joe Carter was a barber, and basically, the twins said that the argument was basically they were breaking up due to her other boyfriend. Right. Her having other boyfriends. But it is also said that the girls called Della, or Della called the girls one way or the other, but basically, the girls said, things seem all right. You know, we're doing pretty good. We think we can manage. Okay? Right. So...

So the next day is the 13th. The twins wake up late for school due to an argument, that argument that kept them up. So they arrived to school late and then they come home from school and they find their mother dead. They,

They find their mother dead in the tub. She has been stabbed brutally and she runs. So the Taz ends up running out of the house and she sees a cop who is there for unrelated matter to for a civil suit. Probably just saying, hey, checking up on one of his on probation people. Yeah. Doing some.

bullshit cop shit. So the cop car was running through and Taz runs out, flags down the cop and says, oh my gosh, someone has killed my mother. So now everybody is kind of in a frenzy. Nikki was found in the bathtub. She had several stab wounds. Four were major. And then she had one that was identified as the fatal wound. She was stabbed

Left lung, right lung, interior jugular. She would have survived all of those. It was the fourth one that was the fatal. The spinal cord. So she, yeah, her spinal cord was pretty much severed.

and that's the one that killed her and if she would have if paramedics would have arrived pretty much at the time that she was being killed then at least at that time that she got that spinal cord that spinal cord was the killer exactly so the cops take the girls to the police station it's clearly a crime of passion overkill so crime of passions are crimes that are due to heightened emotion it's usually someone that you know it's usually known as

as a crime of passion because there is overkill. Because, like, if I shoot somebody in the head and I kill them, and even if I planned it, great, first-degree murder. But a crime of passion is, like, all that anger, all that tension is built up. So the first thing that people look at when the girls are at the police station is this ex-boyfriend, this new ex-boyfriend that she just got into an argument with last night. Well, you see, the twins actually pointed the finger. So the twins were interviewed doing victim interviews. They were like, yes, a sp—

Yeah, a suspect. And they were asked, who do you think did it, you know? And it was like, oh, well, you know, my mom had two boyfriends. Right. And they found out about each other. And so maybe it was one of them. So the cops go and they check out both of the guys. A truck driver has GPS on his truck. He states away at the time of the murder. Yep.

So then they check out boys number two, Barbara. They're like, can we check your body? He has no wounds. He says, you know what? I actually got a girl on my own on the side, so I'm not really sweating that shit. Right. I ain't got nothing to do with it. They're like, can we get your DNA? He said, sure. They said, can you take a polygraph? He said, sure, we'll clear him of everything. Right. Which like I picked this rule up from another one of like my podcasts that I love.

I will never, ever, ever submit to a polygraph. First of all, it's not admissible in court. So why are we doing it? So, exactly. And it can easily be swayed. I can literally just be nervous about the fact that I'm being questioned and worked up, and then they look like I'm lying, and then next thing you know, I'm committed for murder, and I didn't do shit. But, you know, they don't care if we did it. Especially black folks. But I digress. Keep going. Okay, so the twins are...

in the room. They are crying. I want my mom. I want my mom. Now, it's a little sketch because the girls are inside the building. Jackets, hats,

Yep, blue gloves. Fully bundled. And you can tell that they've been there for quite some time. And I don't know about you, but once you get inside and your hands start getting all clammy and shit. It's time to take it off. It's time to take that shit off. So, you know, the kids are kind of crying. They're staying close. You can see. Biting on their arm. Jazz is biting on her arm. Taz is consoling her. We got to be strong for mama. You know, you got to be strong. You know, you can see them consoling each other in there. The cops say, tell me about your mom.

And they proceed to say negative things. Oh, she smoked weed. She drank a lot. She stayed out late. Had multiple boyfriends. She was a hypocrite. You know what I'm saying? To which the cops are kind of like, you know, your mother just died and you have nothing but negative things to say about her. Which...

First of all, like, you never know how somebody is going to grieve, right? Grieving is completely different. I know, like, for me, when I'm in shock, like, it usually takes a while for the actual tears to come. When I'm scared, it usually takes a while for the scream to come out. So you never really know. But the way that the girls were acting was particularly suspicious to the white detectives that were interviewing them. So what was said to be the most alarming

The alarming thing was that he said, is there anything I can do to make you more comfortable? And they said, could you turn on CSI? Now, why the hell y'all do that? Why y'all do that? Okay. So at this point, they raise a brow and they're like, sis, why you got them gloves on your hand? Take them off. So the twins take off the gloves and you can see scratches, bite marks, cuts. A particularly deep cut on the index finger of Taz.

And a bite mark on her arm that is kind of significantly deep, like clear bite mark. Now, mind you, she has been biting other places of her arm. She has already told the police. It's a nervous tick. I bite myself when I'm nervous. Now they separate the girls. They're like, okay, these twins, one of you over here, one of you over here. And...

They don't like that at all. I mean, they're twins. They even said when they were babies, they always found their way to each other. They were always cuddled up. You did that too as a twin. Your mom said that. Yeah, we were in separate cribs and she said somehow I always found a way to climb into the other crib. Well, I could see that with you. Like you were the adventure. They separate the twins. The twins don't like that at all. And then they start questioning. They start grilling them a little bit harder. What do you know? What have you seen? What do you know?

until the twins start asking. Actually, we'll insert a clip here. Feels like the twins begin to play into their story, right? Right. So,

Jazz is in the room, and she's biting her arm. Continuing with the story, if I bite my arm, and I'm nervous. Taz is in the room by herself, and she's kind of sitting there quietly, and you see her eyes glance up and people camera. She instantly, guys, begins playing. Dear God, please let them find the people who did this to my mama. Please let them find who did it. Please, God, make me a bird so I can fly free. A bit overkill, but...

You know, they did not have enough to hold the twins at this moment. So they were released into their great grandma Della's custody. Twins kind of go back to their normal life. But of course, they were number one suspects on the police's radar. They ended up wiring the girl's car. They were they had the girls on very deep surveillance. They were trying to figure out anything that they could do.

to get these girls to incriminate themselves. I heard they had an informant in Tucker. Oh, bitch. I would love to know who that is. I would love. Which one of them niggas at Tucker's? Which one of them niggas had to lower their case? It had to be one of them. I bet it was ROTC. I bet it was somebody in ROTC. Because they were in ROTC. So they don't have a problem with discipline. They were in ROTC.

Never mind you, it was. Well, it was Tucker's ROTC. It was Tucker's ROTC. I was not in ROTC. I was definitely in ROTC. They had a fucking techie machine in there. Especially when it was fucking one of them niggas in ROTC. Nah. But it's not like they were totally adverse to authority. Right. It's not...

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rocketmoney.com slash sisters you know what though I'm glad they enjoyed their time because I'm mad I'm glad they enjoyed themselves because they're in for a world of hurt damn now that you tell me that we're going to have to open up a yearbook listen who was it I have to know

Who looked too old to be there? What if it was, like, some 21 Jump Street type shit and they put, like, an adult? Nah, who... We gotta figure out who got, like, a daddy cop. Somebody at Tucker's gotta have a family member that was a cop. We gonna find you. We gonna find you. Or feel free to step forward. Or, you know...

Write me an anonymous. I want to kill podcast at gmail.com. And I promise you, we will not tell. Just each other. It won't be earned. Their fun lasted up until the last day of school. And you know why? Cause it's informant.

Said that they had plans to go and reunite with they daddy in Jamaica. Yep. They were fleeing the country, you guys. They had tickets for the next day to dip out. So the cops were like, we have to act fast. They had a bit of evidence.

It's not like they just had nothing. Around this time, they also had gotten some stuff back from the lab, which included recreated teeth impressions of Nikki's teeth that they were able to match to the bite marks on Jazz's arm. Yep. They have a boot that they found in the closet. In the back of the girl's closet. With the drop of blood on it.

Stuffed inside the boot was a paper towel. Inside the paper towel was a wad of hair. That tested positive. To come from one of the twins' head. But they couldn't tell who because they are identical twins. Identical twins have the same DNA, which is something that I learned. And that's why I asked you, Tazzy, do you and your twin have... No, we're fraternal. You guys are fraternal. We're like two completely different people. I mean, I know that y'all are two completely different people. No, but I mean like completely, like...

You can tell us apart. I mean, yes, I can tell you apart. Genetically. You can genetically tell us apart. Like mom. Under a microscope. Are you sure you birthed both of us? Like literally, we are just sisters who happen to be born at the same time. Like we're twins by default. We're twins by day and gestation, but like nothing else.

Yeah, they found that, and the hair, what's interesting about the hair and why it was wadded up, they also found hair in between Nikki's teeth, as if she bit it. As if she, defensive, fighting back. And so what it was said was that...

or like how they recreated the scene to explain why the hair was there and the bite mark, was that one of the twins were up behind her and kind of had their arm around her. In a choke hold? Yeah, in a choke hold. And she bit down to get free, but like their hair was in the way. And so she bit, got the hair up in there, and I guess nobody was letting go, so it got pulled out. And yeah, that's how that evidence came. But why would you stuff it?

In a boot. I feel like girls shed hair all the time. You could have put that in a trash can and, like, or stuffed it in a brush. Dishwasher disposal.

I just read about... Nature in the yard. Like, a bird will make a nest. A bird will pick it up real quick. Real quick. I just feel like there are other options than in a boot. In a napkin, in a boot. But, you know, when you panic, you know when kids think they slick and you find out that they're really not that slick. Right. When you're in a panic, you're not thinking straight. Especially when it seemed like the girls...

They wanted to clean up the scene, but they just were unable to, and time got away with them. You know, cops said that this was one of the bloodiest scenes that they had ever seen. Yeah, when they walked in, they could smell the iron of blood. And it was evident that they tried to clean up. There was a load of laundry that was done. Uh-huh.

but it was just an overwhelming crime scene. Like maybe they thought they could clean it up and they just realized that there was no way in hell that they were getting all this blood out. And so they was like, all right, it's time to point the finger. Yep.

Which also goes into, that's how you know this is not like no premeditated shit. Because if it was premeditated, I'm one, going to confine you to one room. Yep. Two, I'm going to have a plan for that body as opposed to just sitting in the bathtub and flagging down some random officer to, you know, with the clothes still in the wash. This was not thought through. At all. This was a how to, what the fuck did we just do?

We made it worse. The girls are picked up, one at school, one from the house. Yes, honey, because that walk, that arrest walk was the talk of the town. At TU, motherfuckers, see, okay? Yeah.

Listen, it was like, this bitch is getting arrested. Right. And there was some other evidence. So the girls told the officers when they initially came in for their interview that they were at school all day, that they were late for school, but they made it to all of their classes. However, Tucker ain't dumb, and they got cameras because...

boy have i been caught in school it was a brand new so the girl said that they were they were late for school but they were at school all day school starts at what eight uh surveillance shows that they arrived at 10 10 as well as the fact that they had to get a pass to go to class when they were signed in at 10 10 forensics also shows that they might have tried to put her in the attic at one point trying to get rid of the body but the thing was the girls that you

You will see pictures on our source material. The girls are tiny. They're two of them, but they are stick thin. And Nikki was just too heavy for them. There also was a video of them hitchhiking to school, which I never figured out who they got into the car with and why they didn't figure out who... Because CCTV got them walking to school and then hitching a ride to school. The boots were found in the closet, the hair, and the bite marks. Also, the twins wrote in...

to each other in a journal saying they had to get rid of their mother soon. So this was before Nikki was murdered. But it says, like, they figured out they had to get rid of her. So now there's this argument of... And they were running out of time. And they were running out of time. So now there's this argument of was it premeditated or was this just...

came to a boiling point right the girls are picked up in the same car which i guess was a trap yep um because they have audio recording in the back of the police car which everybody is saying like oh and then these girls you get to see their real personality which i figure out you know niggas gonna say fuck the police and it's always fuck the police always so

they basically the conversation goes jazz is like they're talking about these damn bite marks as yeah they're saying I got mama's teeth on my arm they're like the twins tone change I'm not going down for something I didn't do yeah me neither and then they're like talking about them looking at me and fucking donuts and shit they don't care about us they just having a good time while we sit back here blah blah blah it's always fuck the police it's always fuck the police whether I did it didn't do it or anything so to be like their tone change of course they did they're in handcuffs in the back of a squad car you know what I'm saying right like

Innocent or not, I'm mad. The girls have maintained their innocence. They also, no murder weapon has ever been found. The twins said in the back of the car, find a murder weapon. And then we could talk. And that was the big thing that was waiting. Where was the murder weapon? Because I know, like, the report says, you know, of course she was stabbed. They said that she was hit upside the head with a pot. There's a broken vase on the ground that they said was hit. They even said that they choked with...

one of their ribbons, like an honor roll ribbon or something. Their own honor roll ribbons, yes. Which also, again, people are like, their own? Would you have felt better if they went out and bought rope to do it? Now we are on 7-12? Yep. 2010. So the twins are indicted for murder. Yeah, they are. I think it's important to mention that these twins had two different lawyers.

They were being tried separately. Mm-hmm. But as co-defendants or plaintiffs? Co-defendants? They're defending themselves? Yep, they're defending themselves. But also, they have the same judge. Yes. And I think there was just really a big difference. And Taz got a state-appointed attorney. Mm-hmm.

got Atlanta criminal defense attorney Dwight Thomas, who was also T.I.'s lawyer. I wonder if he's... Is he representing T.I. in this new case? This, like, six-a-fifth case? I'm sure that... T.I. and T.I. because... T.I. has him on retainer. You know what I'm saying? T.I. is always in court. And he volunteered his services, so I would love to know... This is pro bono. ...why you did one twin and not the other. Like, I guess... I guess he couldn't.

it's a conflict of interest at that point if that if if it had been decided that they were going to be tried separately then you can only represent one of them in the case okay but you may have one of your other nigga uh lawyers to be like hey shawty no because that's competition you

You know, somebody pointed out to me, they was like, you know, of course, maybe it was you. Of course, you take this case because it's a high profile case. Yeah. But what you're not going to do is put a bomb mass lawyer on the other side because the thing is, their evidence is there. They just can't separate it. Which twin is it? Right. Is it both? Is it one? The blood, the DNA in the blood points to Pope. I wonder if he was trying to get her to point the blame at the other twin. Right. And those twins, they stood together. Nah, they...

We did it. She did this and I did that. They never at one point did they turn their back on each other. And that is, I mean, they're twins. So I don't expect them to. But that is to be applauded because, like, best believe a bitch over her. All this time that they spent in jail. And they were not even in the same jail. They separated these girls from jump. Yes. And it took.

Now, Mr. Delight Thomas, he was really out here fighting for his... I really think that's how they got their episode of Snapped. That makes sense. Because their episode of Snapped really spoke...

uh how this was a crime of passion and how it wasn't just a first degree murder like so it it spoke up the fact that this could possibly be manslaughter but definitely and talking about how nikki was a partier versus like they're evil you know so he initially that you know they were went before a grand jury and the grand jury said go forward with the trial

He then went back and argued that the grand jury was not representative of the peers and that, you know, they were nine years into a census and, you know, do a new census, then pick the jury. Right. They did that.

But to still sit and dite them hoes. So they stayed in jail. Right. The girls have not been out of jail since the last day of school. 10th grade year, 2010. They're in jail. They're waiting on their trial. They're waiting on their trial. They are waiting on their trial. They were waiting on their trial for a while.

To the point where a petition was set up by friends saying, look, they have not gone to trial. There's clearly no evidence. Let them out. I just remember, like, being in school and being like, so what the fuck happened? And there was no update on the case. I remember they wanted, like, one of their friends was like, oh, can you donate books? Because all the girls just want to do is have something to read. Like...

I wonder how long it usually takes to go to trial. I mean, it usually takes a while, especially the court system. It's backed up. You have to find a jury that is...

Far enough removed from the case, which also, like, why didn't they petition to have the trial in a different city? Because, I mean, it was such a high-profile case, but you can petition to have the trial in a different city just so that you can find a jury that is... Truly your peers. Yes, that is truly your peers, and also that is not succumbed to the media, you know? Mm-hmm. We will now fast-forward to...

January 9th, 2014. Yes, so this is almost four years later, almost to the date. Yeah. You know, the mom was murdered on the 13th, 2010. January 13th, 2010. This is January 9th, 2014. And Taz was the first to enter a plea deal.

She pleaded guilty for voluntary manslaughter, which gave her 20 years. She pleaded guilty for falsification of government matters, five years, and possession of a knife during a crime for another five years, for a total of 30 to be served consecutively, which was the maximum amount that could have been given. Right. Consecutively meaning... Back to back to back. Right. Then five years, like...

It's not happening at the same time. You're doing all 30 years. The next court date was... Jazz was set to go to trial. Yes. Yes.

Yeah, so Jazz was actually going to go to trial. Take that shit to trial, bitch. Take that shit to trial, bitch. Take that shit to trial, bitch. Take that shit to trial. Trial date was March 17th. Remember, Jazz is the one who had T.I.'s with her. She was going to go to trial on March 17th, but she ended up accepting the same plea that her sister had on February 7th.

So almost a month later. And Jazz actually requested that she be a part of the First Defenders Act and have her record cleared once she was finished serving her time. And the judge said no. He said, y'all are identical twins who committed the identical crime and y'all need the identical sentence, which I call bullshit. Like, just because her court-appointed attorney didn't know to ask for that.

Right. And I just, it just goes to show that these court, court appointed attorneys also, they're, are one of those people that are overworked, underpaid. And now what? Now. And they work for the, they work for the same. So how do I, exactly. How do I trust you to represent me by law? You're supposed to be able to represent me if I'm not, if I'm not able to hire someone to represent for myself and representing yourself in trial is just stupid. Um,

Especially if you're 16. Especially if you're 16. So at least they were smart enough to do that. But like, I feel like the First Offenders Act is something that should definitely be considered for people this young. Shit. I was trying to get it on my little minor charge of a misdemeanor, bitch. I was like, ah, fuck. Listen. And...

So the fact that it wasn't even proposed for Taz gives me side eye cock to the side. And I guess we forgot to mention the twins were tried as adults. Oh, yes. Committed the murder at 16, tried as adults because the crime was so heinous. Taz did not speak at her sentencing. Right. But Jazz did.

And she said, I quote, just want to say, I'm sorry that this happened and all the pain that it caused my family, my sister, our friends, and most importantly, my mom.

I'm sorry for everything and I take full responsibility for my actions I want to thank y'all for the mercy and leniency in my sentencing this is not where I want to be I wanted to contribute I'm sorry for everything she sounds remorseful you know family was there Linda was sitting on the side for Nikki Della was sitting on the side for Taz and Jazz too and you know our lawyer he's

Like, I think everybody in this society is entitled to some modicum of redemption or the opportunity to be redeemed, especially in terms of the laws in the state of Georgia. The state of Georgia allows an individual to seek redemption through the court, which should have been granted for this First Offenders Act. Again, 16. Mm-hmm. Very young, you know? Finally, we get their confession. Yeah.

Yeah.

Your mom's yelling? Everybody's yelling. I had to depart from her. This is when she had my kind of turn where he said, get back. But she didn't keep the knife in her hand. My mom is winning that battle with the knife or whatever. So I picked up the pot.

And I hit her with a pot. She bit me in the chest. I'm not an obedient soul. When she bit me, she latched on to me. I'm trying to get her off of me because it hurts. I'm trying to punch her, I guess. And I think they had stabbed her. Did they stab her? So I was stunned. I think I picked up a knife and I stabbed her. They were in cuts like they were deep because I...

I couldn't worry myself to do it. That was their version of the story. And so basically, I feel like we're supposed to feel like we have the full story, but there are still a lot of questions. You know, Linda is torn. She has lost her daughter. Her grandkids are in jail. And

And her family is fucked up, to say the least. You know what I'm saying? She is interviewed a year after the date and has said that none of her family has reached out to her. Not her mother, not the twins. You know, she has just, nobody's reached out to her, which I know is probably hard. You know, you're mourning your daughter. Right.

Right. You know what I'm saying? And just dealing with that. Della, the grandmother, great grandmother, is said to still be in contact with the twins. Oh, yeah. Visits them, sends them money, writes, you know, calls. Still sticking it out with them girls, which, you know, I think is important. They need that. I think it was very interesting that the family wasn't speaking to her. And then.

you know, in speaking on the sense of redemption, again, they are painted as these evil twins. Stay in jail. 30 years isn't long enough, which I think you have to ask yourself at this point, um,

Given what we know, it was obviously an issue from the jump. Right. And I feel like the court system, which is going to be hard to do, I feel like the court system needs to take some level of responsibility for these girls. Which they never do. They absolutely never do. Admit they made a mistake. How would that affect next year's election? Exactly. Exactly.

admitting that like these girls were crying out for help they were begging pleading crying yelling screaming anything they could to say please help us we do not want to be here this is not a safe situation literally yelling a threat in the courthouse just for them to be completely ignored and

It's interesting you were talking about them being tried as an adult because they were 16 when they committed the crime. They were 13 when things kind of pinpointed and changed. They were 15, 16 when they said, I'm going to kill you. They are telling the court, we do not want to be here. But constantly the court was telling them, you're too young to make a decision for yourself. You're too young to know what is good for you. We are the court. These are adults. They all have your best interests at heart. But as soon as...

you know, like if you're popping a pimple, as soon as it comes out, as soon as it comes to a head and it splatters all over everywhere, sorry for the metaphor, but as soon as that happens now, they're like, well, you were old enough. You should have known better. Right? Like you're an adult old enough to understand the consequences of your actions.

True. But, like, is 16 old enough to calm your irrational anger? Right. Especially with all the trauma that you've been through at that point. And it's obvious that the mom is feeding into it. You hear from the confession tapes that the last word said was, kill me or I'ma kill you. You know what I'm saying? I hate you. I hate you.

y'all going to jail like but that shit it adds up it does and you're telling me that they're supposed to have enough woosah in them at 16 so if they mom pick up a pot per what they're saying and swing it at them and who they didn't see as a mom but as a sister sister's bra family's bra you know what i'm saying the twins actually were up for parole in 2017 which

I want to also call bullshit on the court system for that because parole, you usually serve a significant amount of time so that you can go in front of a parole board, say, yes, I have learned from my crimes. Yes, I have, um,

you know, made the commitment to be a better member of society. Being indicted in, well, being indicted, being arrested in 2010, sentenced in 2014. They did get time served. They did get time served, but 2017, I'm sorry. As much as I think, as you just heard it, like, I definitely think that there are plenty of people to blame, but that was less than 10 years.

And that's the thing. I googled, what's the average amount of time you serve before you're up for parole? And they said usually at least a third of your sentence. So it wouldn't have been until 2020. And they went up for parole in what year? Like 2017? I feel like the court system set them up to be denied for parole and then having to finish out the rest of the sentence. The girls will be back up for parole in 2024. So we need to see, we have to see if they're

going to actually make parole there is quite a few people saying that they don't need to be out there's quite a few people saying they do need to be out okay i think it's important to talk about where the girls are doing today like we cannot just be like they killed their mom and that's the end of their story you know what i'm saying the whole point of prism is to be reformed the prison system let these girls reform themselves

Jazz is in Arendelle State Prison, which I hear is like an army, and Taz is in Pulaski State. Okay, so like she said, they both got their GEDs. At Arendelle, they did...

did a trial program to try and get these girls enrolled like into an actual high school class you know what I'm saying right within the prison this would allow them to get their high school diploma the purpose for this program was that there was a lower recidivism rate if you have your high school diploma you're also more likely to get accepted into college with a diploma as a

Versus a GED. And same for a job, more likely with a diploma as opposed to a GED. So this was more to look out for their future. And it is said that Jazz was weary about doing it. She was well past high school age. This program didn't come into place until 2014, 2015. We graduated in 2012. Right. You know what I'm saying? So she was like, I'm supposed to have been done with school.

They said, we think you would be a great candidate. Please consider it. She does. She actually ends up becoming the valedictorian of this program. She gets to walk across the stage. Della gets to see her. She's such a proud. You know, it's a very happy moment. She says, quoted from nowhabersham.com, when I was sentenced, I thought, even if I do get out, I'm already past the point of high school age. Educator pushed her, and she said, I want to be

a family counselor or something. I was a kid when I was first incarcerated. If I could help kids not make the same mistakes that I made or help families not make the same mistakes I made, that would be wonderful. So she went and wanted to study child psychology. The following year, she became a teacher's aide for this same program. You know, really wanting to do good. I feel she's remorseful. She sounds remorseful. She's putting...

her education to make the changes that would affect it. And once she gets out, she wants to implement that change to everyone else. So she has the firsthand experience to notice the effects, to call bullshit within a family. To be like, you're not doing enough and this is not helping and people still feel this way because that's important.

Taz, unfortunately, did not get the chance to participate in this program, but she was last set to be taking computer tech courses. But she still has her GED. She does still have her GED. She did not give up on life and just, you know, say fuck it, you know? Right. And so the girls will be back up for parole in 2024. Hopefully this podcast will still be around and we'll give you some updates. Hopefully. Now it's time for our segment, our final segment of the night.

it's called I'm not black I'm OG I ain't do it but if I did this is how I would okay okay would you like to start you want me to start I mean I

I just feel like, first of all, it was a crime of passion. We already know who, uh, I'm, I'm blaming the court system always. I'm blaming the police always because I feel like these girls were crying out for help, but when they did it and please note that I take it from somebody who was actually estranged from their mother. Still murdering her is not on my to do list or ever was on my to do list. Not saying it's right. Right. I just feel like the cleanup, the girls kind of freaked out. I,

And I kind of know your side of the story. Because they were 16. Right, because they were 16 and freaked out, and they definitely were not prepared. All the fighting was... Nothing can prepare you for something like this. Your anger being built up, nothing can prepare you for what happens when your anger is built up. And take it from somebody whose anger has boiled over and put them in a lot of situations that I definitely should not have been in or should have been prevented. When your anger builds up, there is like...

Good thing I'm working on my self-therapy is real, y'all. When that anger is built up, you really just don't know what to do with yourself. But boy, if once that happened, I think the most critical thing is that that cleanup is real.

It's just the fact that it was a crime of passion. It wasn't premeditated. That blood was everywhere that makes it so hard. What do you think? I just feel... Pretend you and your twin are actually identical. Okay. So we're identical, right? Except for this mole on our face. Now, she's heard my version. I say what they should have did.

was took the one without a mole and recreate the mole right they should have popped in for a couple of classes just to say that they were both in school you know what I'm saying somebody saw them make sure somebody saw them they were known for being truant they were known for you know not coming home and being over their niggas house be home but be at

your nigga house. Right. If you'd have asked me, well, I went home to the next day. So that's the whole 24 hours unaccounted for. I just came home to my mama and these flies, officer.

Something, but that would have been my time to clean the fuck up. And Trucker wasn't there, so they had plenty of time. Because who was going to come? Right. The nigga's gone. The mama's dead. It's cool, y'all. I guess the only thing would have been if she didn't show up for work because she was a hairdresser. Yes. But a missing person is way different than a murder case, and it would have bought them a lot of time.

What do you think they would have done with this time if they bought it? I mean, but the thing is, like, because we watch a lot of... How do 16-year-olds get rid of a body? Bleach, baby, bleach, baby. Bleach, baby.

Of the body, though? But, I mean, how... There's no... They already couldn't carry her while she was alive, so it's almost impossible for them to have gotten rid of the body, especially now that she's dead, unless they dismembered her, which would have been... They probably didn't have the tools. Definitely, probably... They say in their interview, like, it was...

They couldn't bring themselves to do a lot of things. So I think dismemberment was something that they probably wouldn't have been able to do. I know my ass would have been... I would have been just... As much as we loved dissecting in science class together. We used to be science partners. But a human, definitely not from a frog, okay? Listen...

I'm a baby pig and all of that. It just sounds, it feels your mother, not even a human, your mother. Right. Like, it's not that they were unremorseful, you know what I'm saying? Like, literally in the confession, she said, this was no fight on the street. Somebody had to die. And to imagine, like, you know when you're fighting for your death, you know what I'm saying? And if it was, like, you know,

see red, see red from both sides or whatever. Right. Like, especially with three people, could one really calm down? Because as the twin, I'm not going to let you keep fucking on my twin. Right. You know what I'm saying? Period. Yeah. And the mom probably was not backing down. Right. At all. She was trying to assert her authority. And was sick of it. I've had it with you two. You're going to goddamn listen. And talk to me nice, you know? It's a bad story going worse.

And I think things that are not considered is just because everything seemed fine. Like to judge them based off of the clothes that they're wearing, I think it's very... It's bullshit. That's white people looking at material things and not realizing that in the black community, material things, that shit could have been boosted. Her mama was working at the hair salon. That shit could have been boosted. Was it even real? Do you know how to spot a fake?

bitch? Probably not. You could have easily had your nigga ride up to New York. They're everywhere, okay? And then it could have also just been constant apologies like, oh, we got into a fight, the police was called, that shit was horrible, let's get in the car, let's get you a new pair of shoes, everybody feels better, you know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm.

let's go out to eat and sorry, I didn't show up. Sorry. I was not there for you. Let's go get you a new t-shirt or whatever. And that's, that is unfortunately,

unfortunately like that is how black mamas apologize and a white person would know nothing about it no and like so you think it doesn't matter if a white man investigates we're interpreting this shit totally different on top of that mental trauma does not get enough like you know what i'm saying first of all growing up in a black family are y'all truly addressing any mental trauma that has been going on oh absolutely not this is generations over and over and over and over

over again. This is generations of it. I mean, and we didn't even get, we didn't even touch on the fact, and we'll tell you about the discussion group so that we can get deeper into some of the things that we didn't get to discuss today, but, like, Nikki had a lot of distance between her siblings and her mother because of things that she didn't even know about and that came out after her demise. Like, there are so many...

to secrets in a black family. Nikki did not even know she was born in a prison. Yeah. That's the reason why her mama didn't raise her at first. She was born in a prison, so she automatically got sent to her grandmother. Not talking about... And her mother, because of drug abuse and drug trafficking, so not even talking about the fact that addiction runs in the family. Not even talking about... Anger runs in the family.

Like, not only are you a 17-year-old mom, but you didn't have a mom during that time to teach you, you know what I'm saying? The basics. So how the hell are you going to teach her the basics? And she did not have a mom during that time to teach her the basics. You know what I'm saying? And so I get Della being tired, but like...

Della kind of was running through the same thing, had to take care of everyone. And so there's a bit of exhaustion that happens with that. And I just really feel like these girls really got the short end of the stick and then they were told, you are now... Responsible for everything. Responsible for everything that has happened to you when really...

They were young and they were just victims of their circumstances, of their environment. Yes, people tried their best. I believe that Della tried her absolute fucking damnedest to get those girls on the right track. But, like, there is only so much that she can do without the support, the full support of everyone around her. I think it's also important to ask...

would they have gotten 30 years if they were white? Hell to the motherfucking no. Because when I think of fucking Gypsy Rose... Speaking of girls who killed their moms. Speaking of white women that killed their mama...

Gypsy Rose got 10 years. But the thing about Gypsy Rose is that the white people could see the trauma. Exactly. You know what I'm saying? Emotional trauma does not get enough credit because if I can't see the scars, then I can't prove the scars. When you can't tell nobody how much something affected them. Exactly. And then they never had a therapist that was consistent.

consistent to dig into that family, to dig into how the trauma was really affecting those girls, affecting that household, affecting their emotions. And who even knows, as a black family, if they were truly letting the therapy do it. You done heard plenty of people...

Don't go telling your shit about this family business. What happened in this house? Stay in this house. Period. You know what I'm saying? And there's that loyalty to your family that you just don't want to lose. But they really needed somebody to dig deep into everything that was happening behind closed walls. Because Gypsy Rose, 10 years. Gypsy Rose got 10 years. And then Gypsy Rose's boyfriend that actually had mental health issues got a worse sentence than...

Why? Gypsy Rose ain't shit. You know why Gypsy Rose killed her mom? Like, yes, she was, like, abused and made to be sick. Gypsy Rose wanted to be with her boyfriend. Yes. Her mom wouldn't let it happen. So she said the bitch gotta die. Yep. And she had somebody in her corner that was... She premeditated this shit. It was premeditated, which the girls were not premeditated. I really don't... Yes, they were upset, they were angry, and they said things, but I really don't think that that...

The signs don't show, I have thought this out and we have a plan. Exactly. The signs show shit got out of control and there was no stopping it at some point. Because if it was premeditated, I definitely think you wouldn't have seen blood. Because a premeditated murder, to me, is something like, okay, this is how we're going to do it. It's going to be secluded into one room. It's probably going to be asphyxiation, which is suffocation. Something that can easily be cleaned up. We can easily get rid of evidence.

That is a thought-out murder. But a crime of passion, that is when anger gets the best of you, and that is when you cannot... You see red, you can't control yourself after that. There is no way that you can say that that was premeditated. And granted, the girls pled guilty for manslaughter, but if they went to trial...

They would have, I guarantee if they went to trial and they were found guilty, they would have had 25 to life guilty of first degree murder, which means it was premeditated. And, um, and the girls knew exactly what they were doing every single step of the way. Whew. That was a lot. And I just think,

We didn't necessarily mention it in the story, but you know, if it was premeditated, there was a point during the altercation where Nikki stepped out of the house and went to the neighbor's door and the neighbor did not answer. Yep. Premeditated. She's not getting out that house. And she came in. They said maybe she was Colts. Maybe she was drag, whatever it was.

Ain't no way you got out that house to the neighbor's door to ring it and then came back in the house and nobody saw you. Like, if it was that fucking scary, you think I'm stopping at the niggers? If I've been stabbed, I'm running until somebody's calling the cops saying there's a bloody lady running down the street. Like, fuck getting caught at my neighbor's. I got to get as far away as possible. Right, if I'm actually being stabbed. It's not like it's a gun. It's a short-range weapon. Let's keep the range between us.

It's really unfortunate. It's really unfortunate for all parties involved. And I just really hope... 2024, I am on the side of saying that the girls have done their due diligence. So you'd parole them? I'd parole them. I would parole them. I would at least parole Jazz. That puts them at, what, 14 years?

So why do you say Jazz over Taz? What does she have that Taz doesn't? I think just because if I'm looking at a person that doesn't really know the case and I'm looking at what she has done, how she's contributed, Jazz is somebody because of what she's done. She has not only gotten her GED, she's gotten her diploma, and she has proven herself as a teaching aide. She has clearly shown that she's reformed. Where with Taz, the argument that...

without that reasonable doubt you know you can say oh well maybe she's not reformed she just got her GED okay almost everybody gets their GED I'm

Which I'm not saying that I would parole both of them, but the argument can be made that Taz doesn't deserve to be paroled. However, if you think of the prison that Jazz is in, like, she's in a military-like prison. What else is there to do? And we're also, we don't know what their behavior is like. Have they gotten into fights in prison? Have they gotten into any altercations?

Those are the arguments that I think that a parole board could make. However, I think 14 years for a crime that was clearly not premeditated and they both have actually shown, assuming that they both have stayed out of trouble. And I think prisons, if you're going to...

prison is supposed to be reformed. And so the fact that jazz has had a chance to make some true changes, that is all based off of opportunity. Yep. You know what I'm saying? And I feel like, you know, quite possibly Taz would have done the same thing, haven't been given the opportunity. Yeah, that program was very specific. That program, that program,

all prisons aren't meant to reform. Prisons are here for cash cows, you know? Yep. And prison reform is a real thing. Fuck the police. Like, it's a cash cow. The longer they stay in there, the better for, you know, these people's pockets. So they don't really give a fuck about reforming these girls or anybody. So,

So, and then I feel like, and I'm, I don't know the facts, but I feel like keeping a woman's prison field is probably a lot harder than keeping a man, a man's prison field. So just trying to keep the money coming in, in it's sad. It is. Um, Jasmine, Jasmine, Jasmine, a white head. If you, you know, we're not going to, you know, paint you on one side. So if you want to share your story, hit us up. I'm interested. Yeah.

Okay. So, everybody, thank you so much for listening to our first episode. I hope you guys liked it. We did it. We hope you want to keep up with us. If you want to ask us questions, comments, concerns, likes, dislikes, anything, we're pretty much open. I could talk about this shit all day. You can email us at sisterswhokillpodcasts

You can also follow us on Instagram at sisterswhokillpod. You can also follow us on our discussion group on Facebook, which is sisterswhokillpod discussion group. All of our source material can be found on the discussion group as well as on our Instagram page on the day that this comes out, March 12th, which is the day that Broadway shut down, which is the reason why it came out on this day. Thank you so much. Any announcements? No. Okay.

Okay. No announcements. We'll see you all next week. Peace.