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What's going on, everybody? I'm Marah. And I'm Tez. And welcome back to Sisters Who Kill. We all know that everyone in jail and prison are not there for murder, right? But when an inmate kills in an act of self-defense, being at the intersection of being black, a woman, and an already convicted felon shapes how the court system will see you. ♪♪
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Free money. Free money is out there. Just go get it by starting your podcast today. Okie dokie. Let's go ahead and start off with our players. We have a lot of lawyers and a lot of names that are going to come later, so just hold on for that. But our two main players are Clarence Allgood, who is a white man in his 60s, and he's a jailer. And then we have Joanne Little, our murderess.
Joanne Little was born in 1953 in Washington, North Carolina. Now, Washington, North Carolina is commonly known as Little Washington because this is a very small town where everybody knows everybody's business. But it actually was named Washington before Washington, D.C., so they're very proud of the fact that they are the original Washington, not just Little Washington. So that's there for them. She was born the eldest of her six full-blood siblings and four half-siblings.
half siblings to a father who was a security guard that mostly worked in New York and a mother who was a root worker. She was the typical older sister, right? So she was basically the second mom. She had a ton of responsibility. She was taking care of the kids, cooking, making sure their homework was done, everything that older sisters do. Older sisters do, right? She tried to drop out of high school, but her mom was like, no, you are not about to drop out. And she was like, yeah, I am. So her mom
went to the court and got Joanne declared truant. Because of that, they sent her off to this place called Dobbs Farms Training School, which is basically one of those farms that are supposed to turn bad kids into good kids. Like the ones that Dr. Phil sends kids to. Bad bitty kids.
Bad Barbie. Bad Barbie. Bad Barbie. But Bad Barbie just came out and was like, that place was horrible. They treated me like it was hell on earth. I know somebody who was on a Maury episode. And were those camps really bad? I never asked her about it. I never could catch the episode with her on it. I got some family that's been on the Maury show too. I'm not even going to sit here and lie to you. So she hated that...
she was in this farm, this school that was supposed to be making her a better person, but they really treated them pretty shitty. And so she ran away after a few weeks of being at school. She hitchhiked her way all the way home to officially leave the school. She called upon the lawyer named Jerry Paul. And this lawyer was like, sure, I'll help you. And helped her kind of get disenrolled from the farm. And then she ended up staying up north.
with some family and continued her schooling there. She got really sick due to a thyroid issue and had to come back home to North Carolina. This did not make her happy. And to add insult to injury, her high school did not accept her credits from the school up north. And Joanne was like, fuck no, and dropped out. You know what? Now that I think about that, you know how like kids come from up north and they always end up a grade behind?
That has happened. I have seen that happen. Oh, you know, Kiana, she was in Tennessee and they tried to push her back a whole year in math because they changed it. You remember we got, you know, we got switched to a new math. Georgia was trying to play with math when we were in high school. Yeah. So it's a thing. Yeah.
It was even hard just coming from Tennessee, but she started hanging with the wrong crowd. But according to Joanne, brothers in the hood protect you. And if you're familiar with some of our past Sister Who Killed cases, you know that that's usually the truth. Now, out and about in her late teens, she was dating and living with a man named Julius Rogers, and he ran a local pool hall.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's called Isaac's. It seemed like that was the name of the pool hall. Yeah, because all the newspapers was like that's where she spent all her time drinking cheap whiskey and smoking pot. Ah, sounds like the life. Cheap liquor, good weed. But you know what? They said cheap liquor. They said the bar sold liquor bought from the local liquor store and up the price 100%. So T is that apparently she worked at a pool hall.
met women and convinced them to you know go down to the pier and have sex with whatever man and you know get their money and she get her cut so she's basically out here pimping these hoes the police already have her on their radar due to what her her nigga got going on the police they're keeping their eyes out but they can't find reason to arrest her but between december 1973 and 1974 she ends up getting arrested with julius quite a few times for breaking and
entering being in possession of stolen property and possession of a
a sawed-off shotgun. Each time she was arrested, the charges were dismissed due to lack of evidence. She was arrested in January 3, 1974 for shoplifting, and those charges were also dropped. The police are pissed, and they've been trying to keep Joanne in jail, and she just keeps slipping through their fingers. Six days after the charges were dropped, she was arrested for shoplifting again and was prosecuted and received a suspended six-month sentence. Six days after that, she was arrested with her brother, Jerome.
It's a lot of sixes in the air. It was a bad omen coming already. Six days, six months, six days. Yeah. Come on now. That's a mess. So, yeah, she was arrested with her brother, Jerome, and charged with three felonies for breaking and entering and grand larceny. They said she stole...
$1,300 worth of property from the trailer park homes. I can only assume that Joanne was not worried about these charges because she got not all her little pickles the last time. Right. They can't keep her in jail. I definitely would have gotten some confidence. That's how it works. And that's how you end up in trouble. Every single time.
When she went to trial for this crime on June 3rd, 1974, her brother slash co-defendant Jerome turned on her. Can't really say why he did it, but you can only assume that the police were so desperate to get her behind bars that they, you know, bribed him to turn on his sister. You know, it's a racist time. I mean, they were saying that this was the type of city where even though
segregation had been outlawed white folks and black folks did not interact and so you gotta you gotta understand like he was in jail he probably was bribed with money he was up for five to seven years they probably beat the shit out of him made him confess because they wanted her behind bars so badly you just don't know of course we don't know for a fact but one can only infer I think he didn't want to be in jail man I mean I wouldn't be in jail either but I'm not finna turn on my sister I don't know I'm an only child
I wouldn't turn on my sister. Not a single one. And that's on that. Not for some shit we did together. Right. Like, even like last week when Centoya's brothers and sisters were like, girl...
We are grown and you are 14 running away from Juvie. I'm sending you back. I can, even though it's fucked up, I can feel that love. It's like tough love, right? It's still love. Because they were adults with a 14 year old younger sister that was running away from jail. This one? Nah.
Man, when she left trial, she was charged with two seven to ten years prison sentences to be served one after the other. Jerome, on the other hand, was slapped with a misdemeanor and released with probation. Now, I heard somewhere else that he got five years. Maybe it was the same trial but different charge.
No, I heard that the deal he took was to get five. But why would I take a deal to reduce a seven to ten to five? That doesn't seem. Because she already she was 19 at this point. And he's younger than her. Exactly. So he probably like I've got to go live a life. And maybe maybe as an older sister, she told him to.
i don't i'm like i said i'm an only child so that ain't my place to comment but i know what the fuck i would do in my only child brain so there's that according to the podcast true or crime the judge was like look i'm gonna make a deal you promised to no longer have contact with that man julius you know her pool hall owner boyfriend
And I mean, don't fool with him a little bit. I don't want to even see you in the same vicinity as him. He said, I'll take off one of your seven to ten year sentences. She's like, I can leave him alone. I can let that go. So after that, she was hauled off to Beaufort County Jail.
And she started her sentence in a five by seven cell. Now, this jail was an all male facility. Sometimes like women would come in just for like spending the night, maybe a day or two. Maybe they have to transfer to court or they're headed to another facility. But no one really stayed there for more than a few days. Our sources are kind of split on that.
why she was actually jailed in this facility instead of the closest women's prison, which was in Raleigh, North Carolina, female facility. Now, some sources say that she decided she wanted to stay in that facility, that it was her choice because it was closer to home and she wanted to work off a $15,000 bond. Other sources say that she was in the jail because she was awaiting an appeal for her sentence. But her lawyer was like, I'm not going to appeal your sentence until you pay me a little over $100. And...
She'd never paid him, so she was just kind of waiting in limbo of needing this money to pay this lawyer. She went on to spend a total of 81 days in the jail and was its only female long-term resident. She was in this 5x7 jail. Basically, in there was a toilet seat, a bed, and a camera. Now, the camera was pointed at her, and the monitor was on the jailer's desk because she
There weren't enough female guards to the point where she literally had to like request, put in a special request for female guards to come in. So there finally was like one or two that came in, but they really weren't.
It's still only one or two. And you're supposed to be watching me 24-7. Right. One or two people cannot watch me 24-7. So because this was an all-male facility, Joanne spent most of her time in complete isolation. Yeah, she was basically in solitary. Yeah, she was basically in solitary confinement. Each time that she took a shower, she had to ask for the shower.
And when she was able to shower, there was still a camera pointing right at her while she was showering that streamed live to the jailer's desk. One day, Joanne kind of like had enough and she really just wanted some fucking privacy. And when you go into the jail, they give you two sheets. So she took one of the sheets and she put it on the camera. They came in, they confiscated the sheet. She never got it back. Her attempt at privacy was short-lived. While she was there, she spent her time reading, writing, and her mom came to visit pretty often. Wow.
One of the frequent guards was 62-year-old Clarence Goodall.
Clarence was a former farmer and truck driver. And he's like this kind of big guy, married with six kids. And he also had six siblings. That's a whole lot of sixes in this thing. And the Allgood family was well known in the town for centuries for their farming. It's said that they're the oldest family in this county, right? So some folks told the news source that they were shocked that Clarence even got the job.
At the jail? Because he was so incompetent. He was simple. Touched, as some would say. Now, he had only been working as a jailer for about 18 months. And while he was there, he was doing certain favors for Joanne. He'd do things like maybe bring her a sandwich in the evening or he'd let her take collect calls from the phone at his desk.
And although he was nice enough to Joanne, he was known to be a little racist. He was described as racially biased, but in a good way. Everyone's a little bit racist sometimes. His own wife said in a newspaper article,
Yeah, he ain't too much like colors. So one day that camera that had Joanne under constant surveillance broke and the jail had to have it taken down to be sent off and be fixed. While the camera was broken in the wee hours of the morning on August 27th, 1974, Cleopatra
Clarence enters Joanne's cell with the ice pick in his hand. Now, the ice pick was confiscated from some other inmate some other time, and he had just left it in his desk, which I'm sure is not protocol. I've never worked in a jailhouse, but I almost can guarantee that it's not. He enters Joanne's cell, and he's like, listen, girl, I've been nice to you, and now it's your turn to be nice to me. And she's like, no, that's not what's about to happen right here.
And before the words could even fully escape her mouth, he stepped into her cell. He held the ice pick to her head and began to sexually assault her. Through all of this, he lost hold of the ice pick and Joanne grabbed it in an attempt to save her life. She stabbed him 11 times in the head, chest and leg. And once he was in the ground, she grabbed his keys from his belt.
runs into the room, grabs some clothes, and heads out the jailhouse doors. The keys were found thrown by the side of the road and Joanne was nowhere to be found.
After Joanne was gone, at about 4 or 5 a.m., a cop was bringing in a woman to bunk in Joanne's cell because this woman was picked up for being very drunk and they just needed to put her in the jail cell just for her to sober up. But when the cop walked into the cell, he saw Clarence Allgood face down, pants down, ass out, with only a sock on, with multiple stab wounds to his chest and
and head with the ice pick in his hand. So basically like he tried to remove it. Blood was everywhere. And there was a bra hanging on the cell door. So this very quickly turned into a media frenzy to find Joanne. No one knew where she was. He put a sock on the door? He put a bra on the door. Oh. I feel like he was trying to show off to the other inmates. What other inmates? I mean like there were other cells around, right? That's not how they set up.
If they're still set up how they're set up today, this is not how they're set up. Yeah, he put a bra up on the cell, which is like... Maybe it just kind of flew up there in a...
You know? In his frenzy. Yeah. Within the struggle. Yeah. So no one knew where she was. And the media, of course, was portraying her as like this crazed killer. And they also said that Clarence died in the line of duty. Like he was in the military or something. Doesn't seem like he was... His line of duty included being... Yeah, I don't think of what he was doing. In a woman...
Inmate sale. Doesn't seem like that was his line of duty, but I don't think I don't think anywhere in his duty. They said become naked. Nope, not once. So the newspaper also reported that the ice pick was stolen from him while he was on a phone call with the radio dispatcher down the hall. So basically, like while she was having a, you know how he was letting Joanne have these phone calls. The media was like, oh, well, he was letting her have these phone calls and she saw that he had contact.
Maybe he hadn't, you know, put it up yet, taken it where it needed to go yet. And so she stole the contraband from his office or his desk and used that to stab her. Which is so funny because I know a girl that works at the same prison that Tiffany Moss and Jazz are at. In Alton? Alton? Mm-hmm. And she said that one of them girls stole her lotion at her...
How did he get in there? One of which girls? One of the inmates. Not one of our girls. One of the inmates stole her lotion out of her office. Oh, she said when Tiffany Moss has to go anywhere, the entire jail is shut down. The entire prison is shut down. What? I was like, have you ever seen her? She was like, no, I haven't seen her. But she said when Tiffany goes to the shower, when Tiffany does anything, everything is shut down for her to move in the hallways. She...
Tiffany is still in isolation. So no one knew where Joanne was or how she escaped. But now they went ahead and they put out a warrant for her arrest for first degree murder. While running away, Joanne was like ducking behind trees and bushes every time that she saw any car light because she didn't want to be caught. She didn't want to be returned to jail. She made her way to her cousin's house. And when she arrived, she was like, I think I killed a man.
And her cousin was like, ah, you cannot stay here. You gots to go. Cannot help you. And so she left and she found an older black man that was like sitting on his porch in the wee hours of the morning. And he was drinking early in the morning. She was just begging him, please, please can I stay? And finally he was like, all right, you can stay. This manhunt was still going on and the judge was trying to get her declared to be an outlaw. Now, the thing about being declared an outlaw is, especially in North Carolina, is it's
Once you're an outlaw, anyone in the state, anyone in the state can shoot you dead and there will be no repercussions because the state declared you an outlaw. Now, the judge really tried to get this happen, but it was averted by the sheriff at the time, Sheriff Davis. Just because the judge didn't get that officially on paper, that still doesn't mean that a white man would not shoot her in the street and still walk away scot-free. So it was a very dangerous time for Joanne to be reelected.
running the streets of North Carolina in Beaufort County. Now, the search went on, and they brought dogs, and they were really trying to pick up her scent. The old man that she was staying with, his name was Evita, and he would find all different types of ways to hide her. Every time that the police came, and the dogs were, like, tracking her to his house, every time the dogs came, she would slip out the back. And one day, they had the house completely surrounded. They kept coming back to the house. They had the house completely surrounded. And he was like, okay, listen, in my bedroom, I have two dogs.
Feather mattresses. They're one on top of another. And don't go underneath them. Go in between them. And Joanne was an itty bitty thing. Like she was tiny. She was small. She could kind of fit into nooks and crannies. So she slipped in between the two mattresses. And the police came. They looked under the mattress. They looked around the room.
room they couldn't find anything at all and it seemed like she was about to get away with it and then he sits down on the mattress and starts interviewing this man for 30 whole minutes while joanne is underneath him trapped in this feathered mattress that must have been one thick ass mattress you couldn't feel her body underneath there i mean she was like 110 pounds and even though he was sitting on top of her the police finally left and she was left undiscovered
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Joanne has been hiding out for eight days at this point, and she's finally had a chance to reach out to somebody who can reach out to 32-year-old lawyer Jerry Paul. Now, remember, this is the same Jerry Paul that helped her get out of truancy school or out of that farm school so she could go back to regular school, right? Mm-hmm.
He, along with another professor from UNC Chapel Hill, worked in secrecy with Joanne to get her out of Beaufort County so that she could safely surrender herself and have a chance to actually go to trial and tell her side of the story, which was...
was of course that she acted in self-defense they were able to make a deal with the state bureau of investigation that if she turned herself in she would not be returned to Beaufort County Jail now I heard that the way that they were able to work in secrecy is they met at like a KKK meeting spot because they say we don't think anybody will look for her here
There's no way that I would show up to. Because what if they had to come home? What if they came back because somebody left their hood and they see her black ass there and her face has been plastered all over the media? They would have shot her dead. Yeah, they would have. It's a big risk.
All they do is criticize, criticize, criticize. All I hear is criticize, criticize, criticize. Don't ask me and mom for nothing. For nothing. Nobody's saying they don't appreciate what she did. I'm just saying they could have been better. If you're going to do your work, do the best work you can do.
When Joanne finally surrendered herself on September 4th, 1974, her lawyer Jerry was with her. She made a statement that day and during that public statement, she was saying that she acted in self-defense. She looked scared. She was shaking. She was holding a Bible. She was talking very low into the mic.
And she was then taken into custody at the women's facility in Riley, North Carolina, which was like 115 miles away. She was indicted two days later on first degree murder charges and her bail was set at a total of $115,000. After that, the team prepared to take the case to trial. Take that shit to trial, bitch. Take that shit to trial, bitch. Take that shit to trial, bitch. Take that shit to trial.
In addition to Jerry, she had Morris D., 39-year-old multimillionaire and civil rights attorney, Larry Little, the head of Black Panther Party Winston-Salem Division, Chapter, whatever they call it. He would speak at a lot of fundraising rallies for her.
Helping her raise money for the Joanne Little Fund. Right. Helping for the cause. For the cause, right. A few young college activists were also on her team and she had Miss Karen Galloway. Karen was 25. She was the only black person on this team of six and
She had just passed her bar the day that Joanne had surrendered. And that same day she went and joined her legal team. Right. Just for everybody to make sure, just so that everybody is clear, Larry Little is also black. He is just part of like the campaign team and not part of the attorney team. Right. So there are still black folks involved.
But Karen was the only black person on her attorney's team. Right. So Jerry Paul said he didn't see this as a political trial, just a test of a poor person's basic legal rights. Jerry used to act as Larry Little's lawyer for free when he would get caught up in Black Panther shit. He did a lot of pro bono work for black people, period. He was known as a freedom fighter.
Once things started blowing up in preparation for the trial, activists from all types of organizations started popping up because what happened to her was really a combination of so many ways the system had wronged black women. They had everyone. They had Rosa Parks donating, Angela Davis speaking, Ralph Abernathy helping. Everybody. Now, the state of North Carolina was know-how about their shit.
They had the most prisoners on death row than any of the other 50 states in the country. If you're taking the whole country death row population, North Carolina holds one-third of it. That's an excessive amount. I feel like somebody should have been like, something is wrong here. How is one-third...
On death row in North Carolina, we should look into that. You know what? Things that make you go, hmm. Well, listen, though. You know, North Carolina is where the Unabomber ran to because it was that secluded town where they was like, we're undercover, you know. Law don't mess with us. We don't mess with law. And this is where people go to hide out in them country-ass woods. See, I always imagined that that would be like how, what the state of West Virginia is like.
You know how people tell you really stupid things when you're little and you believe it? Like random facts, like the cabin light, if the cabin light's on, the police will pull you over, things like that. So I was told when I was very young that in West Virginia they eat black people. And so you scoot your ass on out of there every time? Yeah, because no one has confirmed that fact for me. But somebody told me that when I was impressionable and I was gullible, so I still believe it.
They was just killing folks for the fun of it. And of course, most of them were black or Native American. That does not surprise me one bit. Now, the team was very aware of how much the media had taken hold of this case. And they wanted to make sure that they were fully prepared to defend Joanne in the best way possible. So they had three goals. Their goal was to move the trial to another city.
Their goal was to make sure that they had a jury that could really help them. And their third goal was to make Joanne just a little bit more likable to the public. Yeah. So due to this, they started changing her image. They trained her how to speak, how to answer questions. They tried to get her on a couple of talk shows and they were trying to get her to really just be
out in the public so that people had a positive view of her because think about how many trial by media is sometimes somebody is actually genuinely not guilty but they have been drugged through the mud by the media of course we're gonna think they're guilty before they even have a chance to say their piece in the court of law which you should have that you're supposed to have that right to do this whole process cost so much money they decided they wanted to use science to prove
that they should have the trial in a different city. And this is basically socioeconomics, right? But what they were doing is they were basically creating the data that shows that this place is completely racist. They spent almost $35,000 and within that $35,000, they were asking questions to the public like, hey, straight up, do you think that Joanne killed him? 40% said no. They said,
straight up do you believe that a black person is more violent than a white person and that a woman should be locked away for violent crimes and the people in the town were like yeah absolutely and they asked do you believe that black women are more lewd than white women and they said oh yeah for sure two-thirds came back saying yeah so this is already showing that
the surrounding area's outlook viewpoint on black women was not going to give Joanne a fair and impartial trial. And you also have to think about the fact that he's the old, his family is the oldest family in that town. Come on. When sisters who kill began an online store was the furthest thing from our minds. I mean, like,
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rocketmoney.com slash sisters type of pool they got pool and they need to make sure that they got away with that so they help helping to pay for all of this donations were pouring in like pouring in the more media coverage they were building the more donations were coming in they spent they sent out like two million letters asking for donations and telling joanne's story so they
This was a big deal. So finally they got approved to move the trial to Wake County. But as soon as they get there, they figure out that the county is being sued because the judge there, the county is sexist. One of the judges said women should not be on the jury pool because I don't want to sit around with a whole bunch of high chairs in my courtroom, basically saying that women should
Their job is to take care of children. So how could they serve on a jury pool? They're going to have to bring their kids in and there's going to be high chairs. Excuse the fuck out of me. I can do my civil duty. And if I need to do it with my baby on my hip, guess what? Y'all are telling me what I can and cannot do with my body. So why are you telling me where I can and cannot take my kid? Since we're here.
They got out of Wake County and they decided that they were having the trial in Raleigh, North Carolina. And then they went on to jury selection. Now, jury selection. This was jury selection like we had never seen it before up until this point.
They were really asking questions to the potential jurors. They wanted to know who they were. They were looking at body language. They had a body language expert come in and assess if that person would be a good fit for the jury pool. They were trying to figure out people's auras to the point where they even had a psychic come in.
They were using any resource they could. Any resource that they could. They had a psychic come in just to see if they were going to get the outcome that they were looking for. And they had gone through hundreds of people that were summoned to jury duty to finally get a jury of 12 that were six white people, six black people, nine of them were women, and seven of them were under the age of 40. So like,
Here it is, the first time in Sisters Who Kill history, in our few little episodes, that a jury actually represents. I can say, like, okay, you might be trying to get something that represents at least could give me a fair trial. Right. So the defense had to ask that there be preservation of evidence throughout the trial, which seems kind of weird that you would have to ask for. Mm-hmm.
Because isn't that just chain of, what is it, chain of duty? Chain of duty, yeah. Like, paperwork is part of your job. Right. You file things correctly so that they can be brought up in court and people can have a fair case. So let's start from the very beginning. When the SBI got there to assess the scene, the jail had already been cleaned. How are you going to clean a whole crime scene before the police get there? Y'all are jailers. Y'all ain't even allowed to have guns.
How are you going to clean up the crime scene before the police get there? Then there were some bloody tissues and bloody sheets that were lost. And most importantly, the ice pick didn't have any fingerprints on it. And you know, that's the ice pick that they found in his hand did not have any fingerprints on it. And the cop who removed the ice pick from the room did not wear gloves when he did so.
Now, I just host the lowly true crime podcast. I'm a whole bunch of nobody from nowhere. Yeah. But what I do know is that if I come up across a crime scene, my fingerprints will not be on it. I don't give a fuck if I knew this person. I knew exactly who did it. Don't need no smoke.
that part. The eve of her trial began with a prayer vigil with all of her supporters, which were a lot of supporters. The next morning, they marched from the women's prison to the courthouse, and the trial began on July 14, 1975, and lasted a total of five weeks. When Joanne showed up, now she had a new look. Her hair was pressed. She was wearing a very, like, modest dress. She was actually a few pounds lighter than
She was very, quote, carefully coiffed and well-dressed. She seemed like she was more confident. She had, like, a smile. She wasn't, like, beaming from ear to ear, clearly. But in a news article, they said she went from a bushy afro and a thin-length miniskirt, the knee-high boots and sexy slacks, and now she wears short, straightened hair, longer, soft, silky dresses, and almost a quiet, almost demure demeanor.
I wonder what she looked like with them thigh-high boots. You liked the outfit? Yeah, I did. I did like the outfit. But it's all a show, right? Right. It's trial. So first up is the prosecution to defend themselves, which of course is the state. And they really didn't have much. They were like, look, she asked for it. She is a black woman with a bad history of doing what she wanted when she wanted. Her character is flawed.
So here's what I'm going to tell you that she did. She lured him in, promising sex, and she stole the ice pick, and she killed him. She's guilty. Give her the chair. That was pretty much all the prosecution had. So much that the judge was like, um, that's all you got?
Great. So that's not enough to indict her for first degree murder. So the judge in the middle of the trial dropped her charges to second degree murder. On July 28th, the two cops, there was a cop that was like holding the girl up, but there was another cop. There were two cops total that found the dead body. And they had two completely different stories. I don't know if it was like... Some parts matched up and some parts didn't. But like one says...
That he had, he came in and he found him with his pants in one hand and an ice pick in the other. Right. The other says nothing was in his hands and he knows that for a fact because he checked his pulse. So they were trying to figure out, like, did he have the pick? Did he not have the pick? We both reached for the gun, you know? Right. They both said that they saw men's shoes outside of the door. So this man literally took his shoes off outside of the cell. Isn't that the crazy part?
Is that he took his shoes off. His shoes being on the outside of the door. Y'all see that? The caucasity. Like what? So they're also getting into, you know, in addition to the shoes being on outside the door, the cells unlocked. He only has on an undershirt and some socks.
His eyeglasses and men's underwear is on the floor. There's a little blood on his forehead. On July 29th, the Emmy testifies. And the Emmy's like, so her story lines up.
He suffered 11 stab wounds, one in the scalp, seven in the chest, one in the left stomach, and two in the right thigh. The one to the heart was fatal, and the other 10 were clear signs of self-defense, like trying to protect herself from an attacker. I could tell that they weren't defensive wounds on his end. Right. It was clearly that he was coming after her, right? So then they also said, there's no holes in this man's pants.
He's got two stab wounds to the thigh, but there's no holes in the pants, which means he wasn't wearing any pants when he got stabbed. Right. Try to tell y'all. Also, there was like semen on his leg. Also, there was semen on his leg. Rigor mortis had not set in by the time the medical examiner came in. They arrived maybe 30 minutes after the death. And the cops was like, well, did the semen come before or after he died?
before it happened before it was like actually probably right before so jerry is in this courtroom and he is testifying y'all he was like god chooses on certain people to take the battle just like god chose rosa parks and god chose joanne little it's always them folks
to take on this fight and the prosecution was like you shut the fuck up you know who says that Hitler said that Hitler said God gave him the power to do all this and whatever so what does that really say about you it's getting real petty in this courtroom right
So then the defense has some other people get on the stand, some other women who have been through the prison. They testify that Clarence has also made advances towards them. Nasty. They would say he said things like he would trade sex for favors or try to at least I'll get you some snacks or some telephone time, maybe even some magazines, you know. Yeah, it was like basic sandwiches. Right. Anything you need.
i know some articles were like there was definitely a frequent of of fast food being delivered on his nights that he worked and like extra see and they also they also said that he was also saying things to them like one of the women was there for like a couple nights while joanne was there and she said that she overheard him asking her do you miss your man
And none of your business. Him saying inappropriate things like, oh, they're so there and they're so horny. They need somebody. Just because, listen, I don't like going without the good, good, just like the rest of y'all. But I can if I was working in a jail, if I was an inmate, I think I could. I think I could hold off. I think I'd be all right. The medical examiner is also like it also looks like he did say
You know, she found him with the ice pick still in his hand. And she says the reason it was in his hand and not Joanne's is like he pulled it out of him as a last ditch effort to fight back. So, like, I guess she left it in him and ran and he pulled it out and he died. Because sometimes that pull out is what kills you. It's probably plugging something important. Mm hmm. It's like when you can't get a bullet removed. Mm hmm.
Um, finally Joanne gets to speak and it's actually Karen who cross examines her and she has Joanne tell in detail what happened between her and Clarence. Joanne said that Clarence came in several times between the hours of 10 p.m. and 3 a.m. asking for sexual favors, which she repeatedly said no to until finally he forced himself into the room. He came in.
put the ice pick to her head and forced her to give him fellatio as he was relieving himself he got a little distracted and you know kind of dropped the ice pick and that's when joanne took her chance to fight him off and break out when closing arguments were presented stood in a five by seven taped out area
she taped out this area because this was the size of the cell that Joanne was in. And while she was doing her closing statement, she was recapping why the jury should consider a not guilty verdict for Joanne. There were tears in the jury's eyes. And afterwards, Joanne was like, and afterwards Kayla was like, Oh, I don't know. I'm so nervous. Like I made them cry. Did I just blow my first case? So like,
her anxiety was like at an all time high. And then on August 15th, 1975, the jury went out and they delivered for a grand total of one hour and 18 minutes. When they returned, they came back with the verdict of not guilty, which is very surprising because the,
um I think it was I heard this saying when we were researching with Santoya Brown last week um one thing I learned was the faster that they come back with a verdict usually it's in favor of the prosecution because they're like great this person is guilty I think they're guilty do you have a shadow doubt no do you have a shadow doubt no do you have a shadow of the doubt no but
If I could have that jury pool, I'd be great. And finally, the verdict comes back with a not guilty. But the judge, even though she was found not guilty, the judge was not done with Joanne's team yet.
He was like, Jerry, you are doing the most. Bring your ass here, boy. You are doing the most in the courtroom. Very much trying to make this a circus. Doing the old razzle dazzle. Well, you didn't razzle dazzle me. And I'm pissed off. And I'm going to put you in contempt of court for 14 days because you was having a real snake attitude a couple days ago. So how about them apples? Jerry was like, bet. I will take my time in court. I will take it with ease because...
If this is the price of justice, then it was well served and I will wear this jail sentence as a badge of honor. Now, this made Joanne the first woman to ever be acquitted for killing someone who was attempting to sexually assault her in the act of self-defense. Everything seemed to be going well, but Joanne almost forgot, child. She had to go ahead and finish up that seven to ten year stint that she was still working on.
They didn't put her back in the Beaufort County Jail, but this time they actually finally took her to Raleigh where there was a woman's prison. Now, she was about to get out on parole. And when she had a month before her sentence was up, tell me why sis ran away from prison. This is she got thrown back in jail here. Huh? This is can't do right. You know, some people just got to call can't do right. This can't do right.
She got found. She got thrown back in jail. She finished, you know, her little extension. And then she officially moved away and she moved up north. Now Joanna's free. And she kind of disappeared from the media. There was talk that she was going to be like a really big activist. She had plans to do that, especially while the trial was going on. But that kind of fell by the wayside. No one really heard from her. But she did get a couple of breaking and entering charges and burglary charges. You know how that shit go.
Um, you know, activism is not for everybody. It's not. And I think with her, her case was just sitting at the intersection of everything. You know what I'm saying? It was women's rights. It was prison reform. It was inmate rights. It's sexual assault victims rights. It was so important.
intersected that of course all these activist groups were jumping on it and even racial rights a black woman killing a white man yeah civil rights like come on and it's she didn't ask for that tragic thing to happen to her and it kind of reminds me um after the guilty verdict for we're not going to say his name but the person who murdered george floyd who was that bitch that tweeted like
This is what George Floyd died for. He didn't ask to die. Right. He did not ask for people to be out in the streets protesting behind him. Right. He wanted to go home. He wanted to be cash his little chick. Think he was getting a little hustle and go home to his baby. That nigga begged for his life. Begged for it. He did not ask for this.
this is not what he died for he didn't die for anything exactly he was murdered he didn't die for something he was murdered anyways y'all already knew that was the truth though um when talking to one of the people that was on her team a man named marvin miller he basically was like yes she got off but let me remind you the american justice system is a failure joanne
Joanne is a poor black woman. And that's just the beginning and the end of it. You know what I'm saying? And the only reason she was never supposed to make, she was never supposed to make it. The prosecution was pissed. They were so pissed because they were like, we haven't tried cases with less evidence and still got a conviction. Like, yeah, of course you did.
because y'all are racist and you had a racist jury. So Marvin was basically saying, don't let this one success make you think that the system is fair. You know what I'm saying? And Jerry Paul, when spoke, he was like, listen, I'm gonna tell you straight up. The only reason that she won is because I purchased it.
And the check was $325,000. Donations are the reason that she was able to walk free. And I believe it. It wasn't because of her case. Because if there was no money coming in, there would have been no...
There would have been no research. It's all these, all these things that we are doing now to find nothing in life free, not even your freedom. Ain't nothing in life free, not even your freedom. I know that's right. And he was like, the state does not want justice. They want coin. You know, it kind of reminds me of like, you know, when like,
They were marching for civil rights in Alabama and with Martin Luther King. When they were in jail, they stayed in jail. They didn't have a jail fund like when everybody was protesting last year. Also, they wasn't about to keep sending money to the state. You're sending money right back to the mouth of the state. Yeah, it was... They put those jails at capacity because...
You're going to have to let us out. You're going to have to let us out. You got to let somebody go. And you're going to have to pay for it because I'm not. Right. I think some articles came out around October after she was released. And all the headlines was like, who's exploiting Joanne?
And basically they were saying that between the activist groups, the Black Panther Party and her team of lawyers that, you know, she was just being exploited because she fit every cause. Any Black Panther event she spoke at, she did for free.
And the only time she would get paid is like speaking at college campuses and stuff. And they weren't even doing her rate. They were doing they were trying to pay. She asked him for like somewhere between one thousand and three thousand dollars for every speaking engagement. And they're like, listen, we're not even on your calls anymore. You talk about free all black people from prison. And we actually starting to believe that some of y'all belong there. So.
We'll pass on that. In addition to that, she was not that likable in real life. Outside of the facade of the training. Outside of the facade of the training. In the Charlotte Observer, they quoted her. Somebody said, she really hasn't changed much because when she's out of court and away from the press, she's not that quiet. Her attitude is like she's on a big merry-go-round. She jumps up and sometimes just runs off without anyone knowing where she is. Her ego has gotten so big that she just doesn't relate to other people.
They just interviewed somebody else and they said, it has always been a symbol for me. Joanne just rubs a lot of people the wrong way, but they stay because the cause is important.
For the representatives of some of our causes, Joanne Little's case was a timely accident. If it hadn't been for her, it would have been somebody else. So basically, she lucked up and she fit the bill to get some help. Right. Because if it wasn't for that, she would not have gotten the help. And she would be part of those one third of inmates on death row. Mm hmm.
Because in North Carolina, if she was found guilty of first degree murder, that's automatic death sentence. Yeah. So she pretty much led a quiet life. She didn't want to be a symbol.
And some people do that. Like, Cyntoia Brown, like, I keep referencing last week's episode, but, like, Cyntoia Brown, like, being in that prison and everything she gone through really internalized and made her an activist. Like, you can't just force activism on somebody. And it's really got to be in your heart. It's really got to be in your heart. And then even some of the women's rights, they were really, folks, they were really upset about, um...
They asked Joanna a question because there was a riot in the prison in Raleigh, North Carolina. So, of course, this is supposed to be some like prison reform abolitionist. You're thinking that it's going to be a really profound answer. And she basically was like, no, she said, quote, well, that's what you get when you get a whole bunch of horny women together.
And so the women's rights group was like, nah, you can't be over here representing us like that. No ma'am, no thank you, no ma'am, no him, no turkey. So she lived a quiet life other than her little burly charge, and we don't know when she died or anything like that. All righty, y'all, it is time for... Well, I'm not black. I'm OG.
I ain't do it. But if I did, this is how I would have got away with it. You know, I think she did a pretty good job. She really tried her best because my my thickums would not be able to fit in between two feather mattresses and not get caught. Well, you wasn't that thickums at 19, 20. Girl, I had got my freshman 20 at that time. Yes, I was. Have you?
I'm probably the same size I am now that I was after my freshman 20. My freshman was like freshman 40. I had to get my shit together. We just went jean shopping. You know how sad I am right now. I do agree that she did pretty good. She lucked up and she got help. That definitely was a timely accident and you know everything worked out in her favor. Some people just lucky like that. But
If it were me, I would have capitalized the A in my name so that everybody would know that it's Joanne. And not Joan. And not Joan. If y'all hear Joan throughout this podcast, y'all just shut the hell up, all right? Ugh. At least something to let me know. My grandmother, her name was like that. She's always like, ugh, my parents were so country. Her name is Eloise.
And they spelled it E-L-L-A hyphen W-H-E-E-Z-E. Like Ella Weez. And she was like, that was the most ignorant shit she ever seen. As soon as she turned an adult, she changed that shit. I would be so upset. Like how I'm working with pre-K right now and they're tracing their names and they're having such, you know, they're learning how to write their names. And if I had to write Ella dash Weez, I'd be pissed. Ella Weez.
I would be mad. Like, one of my kids, he has a long name and he has a long last name. And they're typical names, but they're longer. He'd be pissed. But, yeah, that's about all I would change. Yeah. I mean, maybe also stop stealing all the fucking time. Like, I mean, I know it's a hard lesson to learn, but...
How many times are you going to go to jail and get away with it? Right. Like, you're not just, like, stealing and actually getting away with it. You're not stealing and getting a slap on the wrist. Like, you're stealing and you're going, you're getting felony charges. Is that who you want to be? Right. At some point, you have to sit here and ask yourself the tough questions. And, I mean, granted, just because she's a thief don't make her a killer. What they say, if you steal, you'll kill. If you lie, you'll steal.
She'll steal your kill. There you go. And so we have it, folks. All righty. Parole or no parole, she was out, and she decided she wanted to mind her business instead of become an activist, which I completely understand. Let's go ahead and get into some reviews. Streaming October 6th on Paramount+. First place I learned about death was a pet cemetery. Dead things buried in that land would come back. There's something else. Something's wrong with Timmy.
He needs time to adjust. That's not Timmy. Something's talking to him.
Sometimes dead is better. Pet Cemetery. Bloodlines. Rated R. Streaming only on Paramount+. Alrighty, this review comes from mbaby409. She says, Obsessed. One of my Facebook friends shared a pic of your podcast and that's when I dove into the rabbit hole head first. I've binged 26 episodes in the last two to three days. I love that I have ladies like myself
telling stories in a way that i would with my good friends i love the vibe keep it up ladies hashtag innovative i do not understand why people want to listen to my voice that long repeat like why do you want to hear me weirdos but y'all stick around tell a friend um this one is from asia km
titled love it i just got in the crime podcast and as a black woman this is the one for me they are so very well in the way they speak about crimes i really do feel like i'm talking with friends and only black women can get into nuances and the motives of these crimes it's my favorite thing i listen to it while heading to work cleaning the house while walking and running and working in my classroom because i'm a teacher
Somebody said in the discussion group that they be having their AirPods in and have a headband on. So they listen to their AirPods while they're with the kids. I said, oh my goodness. They know that you're not listening. They be like, excuse me. Did you hear me? But are you listening? My kids be, Miss Williams and me down.
boy. Anywho, I'm addicted. Oh, the last thing, the black pop culture references are everything. They have me dying with the color purple references. I can't help it. It's my favorite. I speak in movie quotes. Right, and I...
think of songs and I sing them. Alrighty, y'all. That is the end of our show. Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode. If you want to keep up with us, you can email us at sisterswhokillpodcasts at gmail.com. You can follow us on Instagram at sisterswhokillpod. Follow us on Twitter at sisterswhokill. And follow us on TikTok at sisterswhokillpodcast. You can join the discussion group. Make sure you answer all my questions to get in. And stop inviting your friends that don't know nothing about the podcast.
Tazzy, you got anything else to say? Yes, actually. Had a lot of requests for these hoodies and crewnecks to get the OG logo because y'all know it's about to leave. I have it up here for two weeks.
I'll let y'all finish off this month with it. And then it's going for good. So get what you want. Because we're trying to move to a different whole website. We don't even like the website that we're working on. I mean, I hate this shitty ass website. It's horrible. This shitty ass merch place. I want to shut the whole shit down. So get your stuff while you can. And on that note, we will see y'all next week. Talk to us. We talk back. Peace. Bye.