Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
It's summertime and it is officially self-care season. How are you taking care of yourself? Are you working out? Are you eating healthy using that sunscreen that you're supposed to use? Well, whether you're off to the pool, hiking, or traveling this summer, you can bring your microbiomes with you too. That's right.
Seeds DS01 Daily Symbiotic benefits your gut, skin, and heart health with just two capsules a day. I've been really trying to figure out my health journey. I've been telling you guys about this, especially since I'm 30. And one thing I've noticed is that my gut...
I have to make sure that this is all the way together. And Seeds DS01 Daily Symbiotic has been so great for me. Your body is an entire ecosystem and your gut is the central hub for various pathways through your body. And a healthy gut microbiome means benefits for digestion, skin health, heart health and immune system and so much more. And trust me, this is backed by science. A lot of science.
So support your gut this summer with Seeds DS01 Daily Symbiotic. Go to seed.com slash sisters and use code 25 sisters to get 25% off your first month. That's 25% off your first month of Seeds DS01 Daily Symbiotic at seed.com slash sisters code 25.
25 sisters. I love being outside. And when I mean being outside, I mean going to events.
concerts, baseball games, basketball games, anything that you can think of. I love being just in the mix. My family has a tradition of going to the Braves game every single year and I haven't missed a year yet. And this year buying tickets is going to be easier than ever with the Game Time app. I'm using the Game Time app to buy Father's Day Braves tickets for my cousin and for the rest of my family and we'll all get together. And the deals that I see for these seats are a
So much cheaper than they would have been going through any other app or the team website. I can customize my spot. They've got flash deals. And I am so excited about all the MLB games that I will be able to see this year because finally there's something in my budget. You can save up to 60% off when buying last minute tickets for sports, concerts,
comedy theaters, anything that you can get a ticket for. And trust me, it is the lowest price guaranteed. And you know that means a lot to me. And if you find a price that's lower, don't you worry your pretty little head. Game Time will credit you 110% of the difference. Now that is a guarantee that I can work for.
So take the guesswork of buying tickets with GameTime. Download the GameTime app, create an account, and use the code SISTAS to get $20 off your first purchase. Terms apply. Again, create an account and redeem with the code SISTAS to get $20 off. Download the GameTime app today. Last minute tickets, lowest price, guaranteed.
If you're listening to this, you probably already know what I'm about to say. That today is the day for you to start your podcast. You have everything that you need. Your computer, a little microphone, and Spotify for podcasters. It is the all-in-one platform where you can host, edit, and record your podcast and distribute it everywhere. Where you're listening right now, you can have your podcast there. I promise, for real. And it's free. And you can make some money off of your podcast. For
For free. Free money. Free money is out there. Just go get it by starting your podcast today. We are so excited about our sponsor for this week.
This week's episode is brought to you by Fatal Trials. Now, Fatal Trials is a Black-owned monthly murder mystery subscription box game. So with this subscription box, you get these high-profile murder cases that are created by the owner, and the box includes your victim profiles, you get suspects, you get alibi statements, you get interrogation logs, you get crime scene photos, everything you need for a murder mystery.
for you to be the detective. You also get evidence and the goal is to determine which one of these six suspects actually committed the murder, what is their motive to kill, and finally you can decide who you think the murderer is and what their motive is.
and you get to unlock prizes and become a part of the leaderboard. Now, Fatal Trials is inspired by the podcast Fatal Crime Confessions. This is another black true crime podcast, so make sure that you check this out. It is handcrafted by the team over at Fatal Crimes Confessions, and each case is extremely specific. They went through a lot to get this subscription box out, and we are so excited to get our first box because you know that Tazzy and I love a good mystery, and we love to think outside of the box.
So y'all, it is time to visit FatalTrials.com or you can follow them on Instagram and on Facebook at Fatal Trials Game so that you can get your subscription box and become the detective we already know that you are. All of their information can be found in the description box below. Happy interrogation and now on to the episode. What's going on everybody? I'm Marah. And I'm Tess. And welcome back to Sisters Who Kill. Hello.
We have a very interesting episode for you today. So, have you guys ever heard about a black widow spider? Well, the reason they got their name is because the female spider, the black widow, would mate with the male spider and then kill him for food. And that's exactly what our murderess does today. ♪
So let's start with our players. We have Norman Stribling, husband number one, William Robert Gray, husband number two, Clarence Good, who's the boyfriend, and Josephine Gray, our murderess.
Josephine Gray was born in 1946 in Baltimore, Maryland, and that's about all that I can find about her life before this scandal. Right. Like, usually I get a couple of background information for y'all. I don't have it. I'm sorry.
So in 1967, Josephine married Norman Stribling. They lived a pretty quiet life. They had five kids together, real simple shit. And Josephine worked as a janitor at a public school. But family members described her as flamboyant, flashy, show-offy. She wore heavy makeup and tight skirts. She was fancy. She knew how to look good. She knew how to tie her hair.
Around 1974, the marriage had been having some trouble because Norman found out that Josephine was having an affair. And her mister, I don't know what you call the opposite of a mistress...
Your monsieur. Your monsieur. So her monsieur was a co-worker named Mr. William Robert Gray. And he was also married with children. Right. So Norman found out about these affairs, obviously, and their relations started to go downhill fast. One night...
In late February of 1974, Norman told his friends that he woke up in the middle of the night and standing above him was Josephine Gray pointing a gun at his head. Luckily for him, she shot, but the gun misfired. And you'd think that that would get you... The hell up out of there? That would be my sign to go, right? But not him. Right.
He also told his friends that he thought that his life was in danger and they were like, how? But he couldn't really specify how. So a few weeks later, on March 3rd, 1974, Norman's body was found parked on the side of the road with a single gunshot wound to the right side of his head. Now to the outside world, it seemed as if he was a victim of a robbery gone bad, you know? But police already suspected that Josephine and her Monsieur Robert were together.
were to blame. Now, why would police automatically assume this, you ask? Great question. Well, two witnesses came forward and they were like, look,
homegirl asked me if I would kill him like she tried to hire me to kill him so that's got to be your girl and Norman's family they were already on high alert they were already extremely suspicious because just so happens Norman just took out an accidental life insurance policy
Now, after two weeks of investigation, Robert and Josephine were arrested and charged with murder. But we are nowhere near the end of our story because the murder charges were dropped because
none of those witnesses came forward when it was time to really get the ball rolling. Everyone was talking big shit then, like, when it get time to really say something, everybody got really fucking silent. So, without any... Say it to my face! Right. So, without any evidence and without any witnesses, they
They had to let them go. And Josephine received $16,000 from her late husband's insurance policy. Now, I did the calculations with inflation, and that's about $86,000 today. Josephine and Robert, they were released from jail pretty quickly because...
Couldn't nothing stick, right? And they continued their little affair. Robert actually left his wife, Frances, and their six kids, y'all. Six of them all. In November 1975, just a year later, they got married and had a child of their own, him and Josephine.
And in the mid-1980s, Josephine and Robert opened up their home to Clarence Good. Now, Clarence was Joe's teenage cousin, and he was shy and quiet, but he kept finding himself in trouble up in New York. And so her relatives kind of reluctantly sent him to her. Like, they needed something better for him, but was this the best place? Things seem okay. Right.
They sent them down anyway. The marriage seemed strong. They were going on 16 years, but by August 1990, Joe and Robert were having trouble. Robert complains that Joe was very abusive. He says one night she chased him around the house with a gun, and he ended up having to jump off the second floor balcony and run a mile down to his mama house to escape her. It was at this point that he had had enough and decided that he was going to move out.
Robert's mom even told the newspaper, like, she described him as living a miserable life with her. As if it was deja vu, Josephine was once again having an affair with a co-worker and her current husband, Robert, was fearing for his life. So...
Robert Gray's ex-wife said that she knew that something was just off with her ex-husband, right? She said to the Palm Beach Post that he was distant, he stopped going around friends, family, everything. And she knew that something had to be wrong because she just had a hold on this man. Like, had to have that good good because Robert was... Got a hold on me. Got a hold on me.
That's a good song. Which, like, having a hold on somebody and changing their personality, that is, like, the main sign of being in an abusive relationship. Yeah. Like, now, Robert said multiple times that Josephine was beating him. And the co-worker was not the only person that she was cheating on him with. Like, she had a fucking lineup, okay? She also began a relationship with Clint.
Clarence. Oh yes, Clarence, the younger cousin that ended up moving in five years earlier. So Robert started to begin the process of removing Josephine as his beneficiary on his life insurance policy. So like,
My man was on the right track. He was trying his damnedest to cut ties with this woman. Right. Because he knew. Things had gotten so bad that Josephine's oldest son went to the police and was like, hey, I think that my mother is going to kill my stepfather. Which you think would end this madness. It would be over. But when the police came to speak to Robert, he really wasn't trying to fuck with the cops because he already knew what happened to husband number one. And he.
one Toronto be caught in that crossfire you know we move on to October 5th and Robert's driving down the road and he sees Josephine's car come up behind him and flash the lights like trying to get him to pull over he's like fuck that crazy bitch I'ma keep driving so she pulls up beside him and it looks like it's just her in the car and then boom
Clarence pops up with a gun and he starts pointing it at Robert. So then Robert's like, oh shit, slams on the brake, whips that car in reverse and hauls ass out of there. Like, these bitches are crazy. After that, he was like, alright, I really need to go talk to the cops. Right. So, on October 9th, he goes down there and he's extremely nervous and you can tell, like,
he's on the edge of his demise like the end is coming right and he told the detectives that she's been at his work chasing him around with a club or a screwdriver she's chasing around a house with a knife just all types of crazy shit and the detectives they took down his report and they left him with a business card in case you know they always say here's my card if anything shows up yeah
So, November 9th, 1990, it's almost exactly, no, it is exactly a month after he went and talked to the cops. He comes home like 2.30 in the afternoon. He walks in the door and he started to take off his coat and before he can even get it off, boom, boom, two shots fired. One in the neck, one in the chest. And,
And he's laying down, face down in a puddle of blood. When the cops find his body, they find the detective's business card laying a foot away from his feet. That's fucking creepy. Sounds like a message to me. That sounds great. Again, Josephine is the obvious suspect. But again, nobody's willing to testify. I mean, I'm not saying shit. You saying shit? I know.
Not at all. It was stated she looked like a robbery gone bad, although everybody knew what the hell was going on. Even though Robert tried to make changes to his insurance policy, I guess he wasn't quick enough. Maybe he had some bumps in the road, but she was still able to cash that check for $54,000. That's like $110,000 in today's time. Okay, so about double that.
We cannot thank you all enough for all of the love and support as we've been growing Sisters Who Kill podcast. We have found some of you guys on TikTok, on Instagram, on Twitter, everywhere. And we are so happy that you are here hanging out with us every Friday. We do this for free and we are so happy to do it for you every week. If by any chance in your heart, you feel like donating to the podcast so that we can upgrade equipment, so that we can make sure our content stays coming to you every week, please
please check out the description box where it says donate to the podcast to find any way that you can. Maybe you just feel like buying us a pizza one night. Maybe you feel like buying Tazi a piece of cake while she's stressing on writing an episode or buying me a coffee while I'm up all night editing. Either way that you decide that you want to donate to the podcast to help keep this content coming to you free will be helpful to us. So go ahead and click on the description box where it says donate to the podcast and help us out. Now back to the show.
So dealing with the loss of a lover is a lot easier when you got somebody to fall back onto. And that is exactly what Josephine did. She called her lover boy. She said, Come here, lover boy. And if he doesn't answer? No, lover boy. If he still doesn't answer? I simply say, play, play.
Good thing Clarence was there to wipe her tears. Yes, young old strapping Clarence. So they shacked up and they were really happy-go-lucky until about April of 1991 when Clarence, who is now 23, and Josephine, who is now 44, are arrested and charged, you guessed it, with murder. But...
investigators fucked up because they set a bail they were out on bond and as soon as Josephine came out word on the street was that she was running around to her family trying to get an alibi and threatening people and everybody was like great no witness over here don't have anything to say not talking shit against her now Josephine said first of all I wouldn't do anything like that I'm an innocent woman
I don't have to run around asking for an alibi. But since you asked me for an alibi, I just so happen to have one. And that right here is my daughter. So the daughter that she had with Robert, who was a teenager at the time, decided to come forward and say that the night that her father was shot, Josephine was at her job. She was, you know, she's working as a janitor at Richard Montgomery High School. So that's where she was. Eventually, the daughter broke down and was like, okay, that alibi wasn't true.
that's not really what happened and then when she was on the stand she was like I don't remember I don't remember I don't remember nothing it's like A, B, or C all of the above right once again Josephine gets what she wants like she then got rid of these crusty ass niggas in and out you know and
got paid, you know, for her suffering, having to deal with these crusty ass niggas, you know, how she see it. And, you know, her and Clarence continue living together because she needs that man to fall back on. Right. Of course. And the two never officially got married, but they stayed together for some time. Although Clarence may not have given her that ring, he did give her what was most important, a life insurance policy for a hundred thousand dollars. There it is. Well,
with her listed as the sole beneficiary. The detectives that worked on Norman and Robert's case, Detective Mondano, was determined not to let Josephine get away with it. He went to Clarence to warn him and explain that he would be no different. You know what they say, the way you get them is the way you lose them. Mm-hmm, and here we are. Here, here. But Clarence knew that his girl loved him.
and he wasn't trying to hear none of that but that might have just been out of fear you see clarence had become real miserable in his time with josephine she kept him very isolated he didn't have a car he didn't have money he didn't have a key to the house neighbor said that had to sit on on a porch and wait to be let in because she couldn't handle he couldn't have no keys he probably couldn't get mail there neither she wouldn't even let him work like didn't want him to have his own money
And she even took all the phones out the house. Right. Everything had to go through her. Once again, signs of an abusive relationship. Okay. This led him to bounce from house to house, from relative to relative, just looking for a place to crash. He ended up moving with his brother, Leron. Marilyn, y'all talk like that? Leron. That's what it say. So he ended up living with Leron and got himself a job. But when Josephine found out that he had a J-O-B-O, she was livid. How?
How dare you be self-sufficient? Right. She was pissed. So she started becoming extremely paranoid that like now that he has independence, he's going to tell he's going to he's going to start snitching and telling everybody what happened, which in my opinion, like I kill for you. So just let me go.
Right. Haven't I done enough to prove myself? I already got a body for you. I don't, we don't need, because if you go down, I go down. So we in this together. So we in this together. Just let's, let's just let each other be. They don't like to do that. They don't like to let go of that hoe. So you guessed it. On June 21st, 1996, Clarence's body was found in the trunk of his car with a single gunshot wound to the back.
The car was parked on like the shady, the bad side of town. So once again, it looked like a mugging or a drug deal or a robbery gone wrong. But we all know who the number one suspect was. Oh yes, Miss Josephine. Some weeks later, the cops got a search warrant for Josephine's house. Inside of the house were bullets to a 9mm handgun, which just so happened to be the bullets that were found in the back of Claire.
In the garage, they found a red stain, they sent samples to the lab, lab test results,
It's blood. There also was a vacuum cleaner by the red stain. Sent that to the lab. Lab test results. Positive for blood. So even though everything was positive for blood, for some reason, maybe DNA testing at the time, not sure. Because it's the 90s. Because it's the 90s. Things develop. They were developing quickly but slowly. They didn't have enough DNA to determine whose blood it was. So.
So once again, Miss Josephine is off the hook. Josephine's off the hook. She gets some insurance money. She got $90,000 in insurance money. And then the remaining $10,000 of that $100,000 policy went to his son. Now, if y'all thought that Josephine after this was about to be lonely, you thought wrong. Because now she's got a new lover, Andre Savoy.
Here we are three bodies later and Josephine is just living in her bachelorette pad in bliss. And the question is, how does she do it?
Like, and it's not that people, you know, didn't talk. They was talking. Her brothers, her sisters, her cousin, her own mama was like, she did it. She killed all three of them. But why was she not in jail? Because word on the street was Josephine was a witch doctor, a voodoo witch doctor. And it was rumored that she put a spell on her first husband, which, in case you forgot because it was so many niggas ago, was Norman. Yeah.
And they said that she put a spell on him that caused him to scratch his face so much. It's basically like he was scratching his face off, like, to shreds. Then Francis, now this is the first wife of the second husband. Francis said that she doesn't necessarily believe in this voodoo shit because she's a woman of God. Right, the Lord. You know. The cloth. And her God.
Don't let that shit in. The whitewashing. She was like, I'm not saying that I believe in all of that, but she must have been feeding him something to make him do whatever she said and turn like that. And you know what they say about feeding them niggas bread, sauce, and pasta. Okay. For those of you who don't,
It's like a spell, like a binding spell. Binding mean like you're attaching yourself to someone or something. So it's a binding spell, like to put women's period blood into the nigga's food to make him hooked on her. And then he can't let go. And you hide it in the red sauce. Niggas ain't never gonna look at spaghetti the same no more. Ouch!
After he left her house, like, y'all remember, Robert was sick of it. Right. And he left the house, you know, running to his mama's shit. So after he left, it seemed like the spell had been lifted. A week before he died, he had his old family come around and they had a dinner. And it was like, you could tell my dad was like back to the same person he was. Like, he was no longer under her spell.
So the detectives couldn't wrap their mind around this woman and her supposed powers that she possessed. So they searched her house and they find what they described as like witchy ingredients. Like, I don't know, dragon's breath or some shit. And they said there were even voodoo dolls of her former lovers. There were like potions and spells with people's names on it. And they wiretapped her house. They said they even found...
have a recording of her casting a spell on the investigators i guess to throw them off the track and i guess the shit was working because sis still ain't in jail she must have had one hell of a protection spell because nobody was getting her nobody nobody was nobody was touching her so josephine was just out here y'all she was out here she was living her life she was doing her thing she wasn't giving a fundamental fuck about shit and then she finds herself a friend not a male friend
friend like a real friend a real friend and this real friend's name was Wilma Jean I'm telling you they countries all get out okay boy now her Wilma Jean became real good Judy's and Justine became comfortable with
And in 2000, she told Wilma Jean that she killed her first husband. Now, of course, this news shocked Wilma Jean. And she was like, girl, why did you do it? And Josephine was like, he was abusive and I was tired of him hitting on me. So he had to go. So Josephine says that they were driving and she shot him and she staged it to look like a robbery. And boom, she got away with it with some money.
Which she deserved because he was beating her, right? Right. That's exactly what she said. And then she tells her friend that she killed her second husband with Clarence's help and boom, got away with it again with some more money. Then she said that Clarence was trying to blackmail her for money to keep quiet about the murder. And we don't have time for that shit. You know what I'm saying? We don't have no time for loose ends. So boom, we had to get rid of him.
and make sure that I got some more of that money. Which, if that is true about Clarence trying to blackmail her, like, you were withholding everything from him. You could have gave my nigga a little allowance. True. But she couldn't trust him. What if he was blackmailing her before she was withholding everything? Look, two can keep a secret if one of them's dead. That's how it works. And she said, there it is. I bet you're wondering, why the fuck is she starting to speak to her friend?
So she told Wilma Jean, look, Andre, my new boo, I need some help getting this insurance policy out on him. So you can help me? And Wilma Jean didn't say much, but they ended their little tea party, their kiki session, and Wilma Jean went to the cops. Wilma Jean said, hey.
Hell no. Wilma Jean's told the cops everything. Now, Wilma Jean either didn't know that she was already a voodoo practitioner or she didn't care or she didn't believe it. She ain't know. But it didn't stop her. Because it didn't stop her because she wasn't scared like everybody else. So even though they had Wilma Jean, the cops...
still did not have enough to charge her with murder. Because remember, when you take somebody on trial for murder, you have to make sure, without a reasonable doubt, that they will be convicted. And they just didn't have that confidence. Mm-hmm. The detectives are racking their brain, how are we going to get this woman off the streets? What are us going to do? So they decide, let's take a different approach.
Let's try and get her caught up with insurance fraud for all those payouts she's gotten. There's this thing called the Slayer's Rule, and it's basically one of those rules that protect your insurance policy under these hypothetical situations. Let's say the situation is that you're the beneficiary of my policy. You can't receive the payout
if you caused or were involved in my death. And then it turns into a federal crime if you use a communication device to collect it. What does that even mean? Like, if I pick up the phone and say, all right, he's dead, I need that money now. It's like, whoop, did you just make that call? Well, it's like...
wire fraud it's like how the money is transported so that's what they was getting her on wire fraud and insurance fraud so she was indicted with both of those for collecting a total of 165 000 when sisters who kill began an online store was the furthest thing from our minds i mean
We didn't even know if this podcast was good or not. Now we're selling hats, we're selling sweatshirts, we're selling t-shirts, we're selling rolling papers, and it is so easy. All because we at ShopSistersWhoKill.com use Shopify. Shopify.
Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business. From the launch your store online stage to the first real life store stage, all the way to did we just hit a million dollars stage? Shopify is there to help you grow. So whether you're selling sleuthing supplies or marketing mystery merch,
Shopify helps you sell everywhere from their all-in-one e-commerce platform to their in-person POS system. Wherever or whatever you're selling, Shopify has got you covered. Shopify helps you turn browsers into buyers with its internet's best converting checkout up to 36% better compared to other leading commerce platforms. And now you can sell more with less effort thanks to Shopify Magic, your AI-powered platform.
All-Star. One thing that we really love about Shopify is that the analytics are absolutely amazing. We love looking at the numbers, love seeing who's coming to our page, love to see who's purchasing. And it just makes us feel like we're really growing as a brand. And Shopify has everything that we need so that we can make it to the next level. Shopify powers 10% of all e-commerce in the U.S.,
And Shopify is the global force behind Allbirds, Rothy's, and Brooklinen, and millions of other entrepreneurs of every size across 175 countries. Plus, Shopify's extensive help resources are there to support your success every step of the way. Because businesses that grow, grow with Shopify.
Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.com slash sisters, all lowercase. Go to shopify.com slash sisters now to grow your business, no matter what stage you're in. shopify.com slash sisters.
If it is one thing that I really love, it is shopping for jewelry. If I'm buying jewelry for myself or if I'm buying jewelry as a gift for somebody else, I really enjoy the process. But sometimes it can be
it can be a bit overwhelming. You don't know the cut, the style, and buying jewelry is a very serious purchase. That's why I love shopping with BlueNile.com. Blue Nile offers thousands of independently graded diamonds and fine jewelry at prices significantly lower than retail.
So whether you like a classic bracelet or need a new earring to make your outfit pop, you should try BlueNile.com. And if you have any questions about anything that they have on their website, Blue Nile's jewelry experts are on hand 24-7. They're available via phone and via chat. So if you have technical questions about the jewelry, if you're trying to figure out something within your budget, you can know that somebody is on your side to answer everything, making the process easy and enjoyable.
So experience the ease and convenience of shopping Blue Nile, the original online jeweler. Go to BlueNile.com today. That's BlueNile.com. Now that I'm a real adult, I've been really thinking about getting myself together financially. I have subscribed myself to a lot of things, started subscriptions on a free trial, and then I just started paying for things that I haven't been using. I found myself paying for subscriptions sometimes twice, and
I didn't know any of this until I downloaded Rocket Money. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel unwanted subscriptions. It monitors your spending and helps lower your bills so that you can grow your savings. I love Rocket Money because I can see all my subscriptions in one place and if I see something that I don't want to see, I can get Rocket Money to help me cancel it with just a few clicks.
Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved members a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions. That's up to $740 per year when using all of the app's features. Stop wasting your money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com slash sistas. That's rocketmoney.com slash s-i-s-t-a-s rocketmoney.
rocketmoney.com slash sisters so now all they had to prove was that she intentionally caused the death so fuck trying to prove murder did you make sure that these men were dead for the purpose of collecting this money right right so it's december 5th 2001 josephine is arrested she pleads not guilty she's like i'm 55 i got six kids 11 grandkids i work hard i don't even know black widow yeah and she's like a voodoo i do not practice
She said, I do not practice no voodoo. That's exactly what she said. She was like, I might use a little oil. You know, that's in the Bible. She's like, I don't do any of that. She was like, all this shit is regular shit. Like, I ain't, which is true. You know what I'm saying? You can light a candle. You can put some blessing oil in it. And it can cross over to different religions. Right. And I think, like, the practice of voodoo is very, like, closed. It's a very closed society. Like, you're not just going to know what they're doing over it.
Exactly. She's like, you can't even prove that this is what you think it is. You're just making up things in your mind. And so the other thing is voodoo is a black practice and white people hate what they can't understand. Right. And vilify what they can't understand. So we know voodoo as this, ooh, like, you know, evil person, you crazy type of thing. Even on the documentaries where they show her as a voodoo priest or whatever, practitioner.
They've got her, like, making crazy eyes and, like, has... Yeah, they make her look absolutely bonkers. Right. She's like, that's just not who I am. So, y'all remember Andre, right? The last lover? Well, it turns out he'd been around for a while, been in the rotation. And he told the police that in 1990, Josephine actually came to him saying that she was planning on killing Robert.
He says that one night she pulls out a .45 caliber gun. She was like, I don't give a fuck. I'll use this on anyone who steps foot up in this house and I don't care if it's my husband. And Josephine just denies it. She's like, I didn't have any gun. Right. I didn't do this. He also says that
She used Robert's spare key to get into his apartment the night that he died. He said that she dressed up like a man, hid in his apartment, and they was like, well, if you know all this, why didn't you report her? Why didn't you say something at the time? And he was like, because I love her. Because she got that good good. What are you talking about?
He even goes on to say while she was waiting trial, he calls her and he's like, she's like, listen, bae, you gonna have to plead the fifth and not say nothing. But you know, all the calls are recorded from the jail and the cops are like, is she threatening you?
Or is she implicating you? But it's a little bit of both, right? Like, you're threatening me because I know what you've done and I know what you're capable of. But also, you know that this call is recorded, so you're implying that I was there and that I know something about these schemes and these scams. Because the Fifth only protects you from your crimes. Right. So, I guess he did feel threatened because he's spilling all his beans to the police now.
And, you know, they were just like, it had been habit for the new lover to kill the old. So, like, what makes this any different? Yeah. Right. Why shouldn't we look and think that you're involved in it? So, finally, on August 16th, 2002, she was convicted. The court said her schemes to defraud involved two premeditated murders, those deaths being Robert and Clarence. They said that she was not only involved in the death, but convicted.
But used that to illegally collect insurance money. So boom, insurance fraud. Got you. She was found guilty on eight counts of mail and wire fraud by the federal jury in the U.S. District Court in Greenbelt, North Carolina. The court decided to sentence her to 40 years for her crimes. So naturally.
Josephine decided it's time to appeal. So in these court documents of her appeal, she says that there are multiple reasons why Gray should be resentenced to less than 40 years of imprisonment. This is all quote from the court documents. Gray's counsel first contested that the cross-reference from the fraud guideline to the first degree murder document
was inappropriate because the indictment setting forth the count of conviction alleged intentional murder rather than premeditated murder. So trying to get them on a technicality. They also argued that the murder is like, you can't prove that it's first degree murder because I mean, she never was convicted of a murder and you know, first degree is premeditated, right? So you can't just say I did it. And finally, the defense counsel did various circumstances that,
this is the only thing we have of her childhood because the court document says that she had a difficult childhood and that she was strong. She had moral character. Also, please take in consideration her age and that she has health problems that mean she needs to get out early. You know what I'm saying? She's a grandma. Exactly. She's a grandma of a,
a grandmother of 11. The government opposed these arguments, and they said that her 40-year sentence would remain appropriate for the following crime. Here's my thing. She never got charged for Norman's insurance. She got away... So she got away with one. Right. She got away with one. So she is... Everybody says she's probably still alive because you really can't figure out if she is. I mean, there is so little about her. I mean...
I'm telling you, if she's actually practicing voodoo, she did a great job of keeping her name. Like, people just know vaguely the story. There is protection all around her. You cannot get into, like, the nitty-gritty of this woman. You can barely find newspaper articles about it. You really just have to go off of, what, Deadly Women and the other podcasts about it. But even a newspaper that you do find, they're just repeating this story. Exactly. The newspaper story doesn't even really start until, like,
the last murder. And it's like, alright, she's got away with this three times and we're sick of it. She's got an in and out and this woman has stayed under the radar so like, you go girl. So remember y'all, she's in prison for insurance fraud. White collar crimes. Right. She has never been convicted of murder. Okay friend, I guess it's time for... Well I'm not black, I'm OG. Do you want to go first? Okay. Honestly...
She did quite well. But if I were her. You're supposed to be. This.
powerful voodoo woman right but you killed them all with a gun there's like flowers you can give people to make them die and like i'm sure there's some better way she could have well she says she doesn't practice voodoo so she keeps saying she keeps telling y'all it makes you have to kind of believe it like the fact that they really went and ran with this story i mean i guess they found voodoo dolls in her house but like those were just her dolls and she wanted them to look lifelike right
but I don't know. I think if it was me, I'd have, I'd have put a spell. I'd have, I'd have put it in their food or something. Like it's the eighties. You could poison. Yeah. They probably would have toxicology probably went all the way there yet. I feel like she could have got away with poisoning them. She should have changed her manner of death. Some type of herb, something a little more low key than bullets. Like it's like gun, gun, gun. Okay. Sis.
We get it. You gotta chill. You're off on these niggas. Yeah. I ain't do it. But if I did, I've got two things for this. First of all, girl, why did you get a friend? Like, I understand that it's hard out here. But, like... That's really where she messed up, right? That's really where you messed up is by getting a friend and then spilling the beans and saying, like, oh, girl, let me tell you about what I did.
So do you think the cops wouldn't have resorted to the mail fraud option if she didn't? I think they still would have been racking their brains. Finally, they had another lead. So they're like, okay, we've got to get something. We've got to get something. And the fact that she told Wilma, oh, and they got her insurance probably, and she bragged about it to Wilma. So Wilma brought it up to the cops. So the cops were like, oh, shit, insurance fraud.
Girl, like Tazzy is my best friend, but I don't, you know, depends on the murder. You wouldn't tell me she committed a murder? It depends, bro. Depends on who it is. I be shamed sometimes. Right. Sometimes my actions I be shamed of. So here's my other thing. Josephine, sis, you were a janitor.
And you kept marrying men that were also your coworkers, that were also janitors. And taking out these low-ass insurance policies. But did you peak that she went up each time? We started at 16, went to 54, then 100. 100.
No, I don't care. You know, no. Let me tell you what the white women are killing their husbands for. OK, girl, the white women are killing for no less than half a million and goes upwards from there. So you have to pay into that. And they are on a janitor's salary. And if you but here's the thing, girl, if you got that good, good, which it seems like you do. Why? Even though you're a janitor, girl, go out to the bar and get you a rich nigga. Like, come on.
Oh, $100,000 insurance policy? These white women are not killing for anything less than half a million. But see, here's the thing. A rich nigga is gonna be like a janitor. Rich niggas got that... They be the bourgeoisies, you know? But she could have at least been acting like she had... Like her job is to be a homemaker and live off of this rich man. I don't care, girl. You just should have played it better. Exactly. You should have just played your cards better. But also, a rich man probably...
It's going to be like, I'm putting you as my insurance for why? Right. Why are you even talking to me about my insurance? You don't think it's too soon to get married? You don't think it's too soon? You did what now? She killed the first one in 74. Went to jail with each other and then came out and said, all right, you ready? I'm ready. Let's get married. Killed him in 74, married in 75. Like, come on, let's jump the rope. And I just wonder, like, the nigga was married. The whole divorce process and you got that done.
Swiftly, bro. You know how long it takes bitches to get niggas to leave their wives? When you got that good good. That's all that is, is that she just had it. She just had it. She just had something that we have never seen before, you know? She's got the whop.
So, friend, parole and a parole. Parole and a parole, parole and a parole. It's honestly white collar crimes that we have her on. Right. You know, okay. Because she got away with the murder. Check this. This is how I see it, right? Okay. You have a black woman in the 80s, 70s, and 90s. And she has...
committed a murder in each of these decades, right? And then you have this white detective working this case. It's not as if it's this whodunit, you know what I'm saying? He knows exactly who did it. He knows exactly where to find her. He knows everything.
and he just can't prove it in court, there was no way that she was going to get away with this, right? But then does that also mean she was targeted? You know what I mean? I mean, I definitely think that she was targeted. I mean, he had his eyes. He had a bone to pick with her. She was defeating him at every turn. So, of course, he was trying to get her. Does that make her any less guilty? Also, I feel like... I just don't feel like it was proven fairly.
The only reason I say that is I agree with you is because they never proved that she killed him in the court of law. However, you got me on insurance fraud for saying that I had something to do with their murder. And I think the main thing was they said premeditated murder, but really to prove Slayer's, you have to just say that they were involved. If you said that she was involved and improved that cool, but saying that she premeditated these murders without her consent,
ever being found guilty of premeditating, of killing these men. So you can't catch me on murder, but you can prove that I murdered somebody to get insurance. Right. Who was her defense counsel? Sure. Um, so as far as parole or no parole, I'm gonna say I'll let her get a swing at it. You're smart enough. She give me a good case. I'd like to see what she comes up with. I just, she probably wouldn't make it, but...
Yeah, I'd let her sit in front of the parole board, but I definitely don't think that she's going to get out. I don't think she'd get out. Because that's a very large insurance fraud sentence. They did that shit on purpose. Because, like, white people go to prison for more and get less, you know? That part. Like, everybody says the white-collar crime, that's the one you don't do real time for, but she's going to be spending the rest of her life in jail. Right. But all y'all got her on was a white-collar crime?
on some insurance fraud and not even a lot of money like a i think they they in court they were talking about 164 000 that ain't a lot of money shit no wonder she had to keep trying to find andre and get another insurance policy but also she can stay there right because we'll just say it as she got her free time before not after you know what i mean she lived years decades
unscathed you know girl you are something else she got her time off before she's already taking it out all right friend well that is our episode today let's go ahead and read some reviews thank y'all so much for hanging out with us week after week week after week shout out to everybody on tiktok that hates me this week i love y'all listen the ones who hate you are not here because they said and just for that unfollow
And then shout out to y'all that were like commenting and like, no, it's great. Y'all should listen to the podcast. He was like, we're glad I clicked on that. Welcome in, guys. Let's go with D. Jacqueline. I listened to you on Spotify, but I had to slide over the app to leave a review. I love your podcast. It's so refreshing to not only hear true crime stories about black women, but also hear the stories told by black women. It's so relatable. I appreciate the research you do and the comedy you bring to the episodes.
as well thanks girl keep doing what you're doing cussing and all lol ah thank you so much because i'm not going to stop it's just it's just who we are i come from a long line of potty mouths and it's just it's in me now right all right i'm gonna do somebody that wrote a review on my birthday on may 6th so this is from snug baby and snug baby says this is
Okay.
So thank you so much, y'all. All right. So thank y'all again for staying with us for another episode. If you want to keep up with us, you can follow us on a plethora of places. You can follow us on TikTok at Sisters Who Kill Podcast. You can follow us on Twitter at Sisters Who Kill. You can follow us on Instagram at Sisters Who Kill Pod.
And then you can join the discussion group where we talk. We kiki. We have a good time. Oh, the discussion group is fun. The discussion group, we pop it. Okay, did you see that girl who was talking about that her job is to discuss?
The discussion group is fine, y'all. I was about to say, the discussion group, y'all got to get in there because we talk about some real ass shit. We talk shit. We have a good time. So shout out to everybody that is here. So shout out to our anchor sponsors. So these are people that have decided that they wanted to donate to the podcast monthly. If you want to donate to the podcast, you can click the link that says support the podcast and it'll tell you how to donate. But these people decided that they were going to support us monthly. So like, shout out to y'all. And they don't take a lot.
No. A dollar five or ten. That's all we asking. Exactly. So we have Stephanie. We have Luis. Nicole. We got Shannon or Shanine girl. We're not sure. Kiana. Tiffany. Ashley. Peyton. Roderick. And that's my daddy. Nikita. And Maggie. Thank y'all so much for supporting the podcast. I saw that last minute. I was like, wait a minute. Oh, that's your daddy. He was our first sponsor.
Shout out to you. He don't listen to this shit. All right. I don't have anything else. Friend, you got anything? Talk to us. We talk back. We really appreciate you guys. Tune back in next week. Peace.