The Money Strategies That Are NOT Dave Ramsey Approved!
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Today, we are setting the record straight on what it means to be Ramsey-ish. I can't get on board with the debt snowball. Highest interest rate first all the way. Oh, what's so bad about having a credit card if I pay it off every month? I follow all the other rules. Hey guys, I'm Rachel Cruz. I'm George Campbell. And this is Smart Money Happy Hour. ♪

Well, this is a show where two friends who happen to be money experts talk about what you're talking about. So everything from pop culture, current events, and money. We are setting the record straight on what it means to be Ramsey-ish. And I have feelings, Rachel. All right, George, before we dive into that and judge everyone, what are we sipping on? We are sipping on a cranberry fizz mocktail that is, it's really dolled up.

Yeah. I think if you like a mocktail, this one's going to impress. So stick around until the end. We're going to give you our rating and reveal the cost per glass at the end of the episode. So great. Okay, so George, when I say this line, what do you think of? Oh, yeah. I follow Ramsey and I am debt-free. Love it.

But I do have a car loan. Okay, very confusing. And I've heard that just too often as we take calls on the Ramsey show. Yeah. And they go, okay, so I'm out of debt. And I'm like, okay, well, I have a car loan. I'm like, well, did you not think the word loan is in it? Maybe it's debt. Yes. So there's a lot of Ramsey-ish behavior. How do you...

sum up what it means to be Ramsey-ish or if you're old school, Dave-ish. Yeah, it's kind of like, oh yeah, I'm going to follow the Ramsey principles and do money the way Ramsey teaches and talks about, but I'm going to have like on the side my own caveats. So like, I'm going to do it all, but I'm still going to keep a credit card or I'm going to do it all, but I'm still going to like...

get some crazy mortgage to make it work for me to be able to get in a house right like i mean like you kind of do it all but they think of it like a buffet it's like i'm gonna take what i want yeah that's a good way of putting it yeah but a couple of things here and there it's like yeah we're just gonna kind of change it up if you will and i would say ramsey ish would be big things not small things i don't know like yeah i feel like there's like small things you can do that wouldn't necessarily quote unquote be ramsey but it's it is what it is

But then there's kind of the big stuff, like debt would be one of those big ones, like that kind of thing. We'll get into it. I'm curious to see how many of our viewers and listeners would consider themselves Ramsey-ish after listening to this episode. So tune along at home and see, oh my gosh, that's me. Well, there's other areas of life that we do this, right? You think about someone that like does CrossFit. Yeah.

but then they smoke and drink or something. And you're like, wait, what? Does it cross each other out? Yeah, what is that? How does that work? Or maybe if you're a big quote reader, but you only listen to podcasts and go on Reddit, but then you still say, hey, I was reading this article the other day. Just say you saw a Reddit thread. Totally. Or saw an Instagram reel in 30 seconds. Yeah.

Yeah, so there's a lot of these areas of our life, George, that people kind of like, yeah, they like claim something, but then they kind of like, to their own devices, do their own thing. Yeah, which is very human. Yeah, totally. You know, nobody can be 100% all the time, but when we say, are you doing the Ramsey plan? There is an order to do it in. There's a way to do it that we know will cause success. That's right. Okay, so all of this has been drilled into me since birth, right?

Since I was in the womb, if you will, George. Since your mutual fund parties you had as a young child. Yeah, that's right. That's right. But for you, you kind of got on board as an adult. So what were areas of your life that you were kind of Ramsey-ish that you had to change? Ooh, so I started at Ramsey in 2013 as an intern. I was just a knucklehead 20-something-year-old with a bunch of student loan debt, some credit card debt. My most Ramsey-ish thing was that I...

bought a house before it was time in the steps. Oh, yeah. So then I was like, oh gosh, there's a time and place for that. Baby step three B to save up for a home down payment. And so if I could go back in time, I would have done it differently. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Knowing what I know now. That's good. I love it. I love it. Well, there's a lot of different scenarios on this topic, George, that we put in that people say, well...

I'm doing it but here's my own way and I think we should talk about each of those here's my thing that makes me unique and special okay let's hear it Rachel George be nice that's how it sounds in my head personally be nice okay alright you ready for this one

First topic. I'm so nervous. I can't get on board with the debt snowball. Highest interest rate first all the way. Oh, so this is debt avalanche method versus what we recommend, which is the debt snowball method. When you're paying off debt. So you want to focus on the smallest balance instead of the highest interest rate. Yes. And math would say, well, the highest interest rate, you want to knock that out faster because it's costing you the most.

depending on the situation. Which mathematically is correct. Yes, if you're going to do it. Here's the funny thing. If you do both methods, it's usually about a wash. There's not a huge cost savings to doing it the avalanche method. But what we found is if you do it the snowball method, there's a much higher chance you'll actually complete it.

And get through it. Yes. Because you're knocking out a payment faster. You're attacking the smallest balance, free up that payment, apply it to the next smallest debt, and you get the momentum, the progress, the psychological win. We found that's what actually causes people to become debt-free. That's right. Yeah. Because it's less, I mean, a lot of this personal finance stuff, it's less knowing what to do in the math and trying to finagle like formulas around it. It's actually just doing it. And we found that doing it, you're more motivated to do it if you're getting these quick

Yeah, where was this inner mathematician when you went 25% APR on this credit card? Into the credit card debt. Yep, I know. So there's a time and place for math. It's not when you're trying to justify doing it a different way. It's dead snowball all the way. All the way. All right. I'm so nervous. You get nervous about things? What's so bad about having a credit card if I pay it off every month? I follow all the other rules. Oh, yeah. This is a very Ramsey-ish thing. The credit card thing is one of the hardest things.

Hurdles? Things to break in people's financial life for them to do something so different because you're just so used to it, having a credit card. Well, you're conditioned to think, well, I need a credit card to live my life. It's going to be so much more difficult to live my life without a credit card. Yes. Once I cut up my card, I was like, oh, this is not that difficult. Where are people getting this from? It's a lot of, it's just in their minds. Yes. And you feel like you're playing a game and winning some kind of...

you know, industry standards since like, oh yeah, I'm getting the airline miles. I'm getting the cash back. Why not get the points if I'm going to spend it anyways? Yes, that's right. And every study shows that you spend more when you use someone else's money. 12 to 18% more. Yeah. Some studies are showing. I mean, like it's a pretty significant and we've had people do their debt-free scream. And I remember one lady was saying that they did everything, but they kept the credit card. And then halfway through their debt snowball, she's like, because they just use it for like their utilities. Like what was they were going to pay anyways? Yeah.

And she said, when we cut it up, I realized, oh my gosh, we did actually use it for a little bit more.

And then those things were like, oh yeah, there's just like not this emotional attachment to your money when you're using someone else's money. She's like, we did end up spending more. Like we did. She's like, it's great. We literally saved more the month we cut up the credit card to when we went to debit. So here's the experiment. Don't use your credit card for 30 days and then track how much you spent between the months on a normal given month. You'll be shocked. Because if you're thinking I'm going to spend 12% more, that's like saying I get 12% cash back on my debit card.

That's effectively what you're saving by not using a credit card. By not doing that. Yep. It's good.

All right, next. I know I need to get out of debt, but I'm scared to take my savings all the way down to $1,000. Can I just leave a little extra in my starter emergency fund? This is a tough one. Yeah, and this is real. So baby step one in the Ramsey plan is save $1,000. Once you have that, anything beyond that, any savings, any non-retirement funds you can sell to get out of debt, do it. And that scares people because if they have 10 grand, we would say use 9,000 of that to attack debt, keep 1,000 in the bank. Okay.

That's scary for people. And they go, Rachel, it's not enough in today's world.

And the retort is it was never enough. It wasn't enough in 1992 when Dave came up with these steps. It was just enough to cover the ankle bite or emergencies causing people to fall off the wagon. Yes. And it's really interesting when you think about it because people want to keep money in savings because they feel like, okay, there's like safety there, but yet I'm going to have all this other debt over here. And if something were to happen to your job, that savings probably won't last you very long anyways, where you're going to have three or four debts that you could have paid off.

sitting there waiting for a payment. And if you can't have the money to pay it, then it's going to go into collections. You're going to get late fees. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, there's risk either side of the coin. And so might as well use that motivation to get out of debt quickly and

to then bump up that starter emergency fund to three to six months of expenses. That's my favorite part is people don't think about the psychological fuel you gain from a thousand bucks and you go, oh my gosh, I need to get out of debt now. Yes. You get too comfortable when you have 10, 20 grand sitting in there. That's right. And we know, you know, if there's life things happening, you know, if you're about to have a baby, if you're moving and you need money for moving expenses, like there's a time and a place. If a big emergency really does pop up. Yeah, deposit at Snowball, fix the thing, do the thing and then go back to it.

It's great, right? So like there's caveats around that. But overall, yeah. And this is not forever. This is 18 to 24 months on average is what it takes people to do the debt snowball. That's right. Then you can work on your fully funded emergency fund. That's the goal is three to six months of expenses as you're never going to debt again insurance plan. Love it. So I hear you. I see you. I understand. But four in 10 people have nothing in savings.

So to try to get someone to save up $5,000 as a starter emergency fund. Takes them forever to do it. They would never do it. And in that process of saving up that much money, you could be paying off debt, but you're paying more in interest and still debt payments, right? So like, it's just, yep, get a quick emergency fund and start paying off that debt. Move on. Move on. Is it okay to buy nice things? Sometimes I feel guilty since I've worked the baby steps so long.

What do you think about that? I think it is great to buy nice things. When is the time to buy nice things? I mean, if you have the money for it, if you're intentional and knowing like, yeah, I have saved for this or it's in the budget, it's within the boundaries that I've set for myself, you can definitely enjoy things. And one thing that I love to buy and enjoy is Cozy Earth. Yes. So nice. It is like good quality products, you guys. And it's like the sheets are...

I got a robe. Oh, yeah. I need to get the robe. I know, the robe. I have a blanket. I have a blanket. I have... Winston has the socks. I have joggers. PJ set. PJs, yes. I've gotten so much stuff from them because seriously, their products are amazing. And I love specifically the bamboo. Anything bamboo? Bamboo.

I didn't know. Where have we been in society where we didn't know we could make clothing from bamboo? That's an amazing invention. I don't know, but it's amazing. And they're giving us an amazing discount too. Yeah, up to 40% off for our Smart Money Happy Hour listeners if you go to CozyEarth.com slash smart money or use the promo code smart money at checkout. And again, this is one of those things where you go, I'm out of debt. I have the emergency fund. It's okay to buy nice things because you're doing it with cash, with intentionality. Love it. All right, next, George.

I invest about 10% through my company match, but I have about 5% going to crypto.

It's fine to have a balance, right? So here's the take. That might be controversial. People don't, they think I hate crypto. I'm not a crypto hater. There's a time and place for it. Most people are not investing 15% into retirement. Instead, they're putting everything they have into crypto because they have all this FOMO. Yes. And so if you're investing 15% into retirement and you want to use some of your fund money to,

to gamble on crypto or whatever else, a single stock, and it's not a big part of your net worth or your investment portfolio, go for it. That's right. Just know it's more volatile. Yeah. It could go up a thousand percent. It's not an investment. Like you're investing in a currency. You're trading currency. You're trading currency is basically what that is. You're trading a US dollar for a crypto investment.

And then you, yeah. A store of value, as they call it, Rachel. There you go. On the blockchain. The blockchain and everything, yeah. So, listen, if you're going to put your hard-earned money...

a way for savings for me at least. I'm like, I want to know that it's going to work. And when you invest in the market, you're going to get anywhere, you know, 9, 10, 11, 12% returns. And I'm tired. In 2024, the S&P 500 returned 24%. Yes, I know. Some of our funds, when we pulled our stuff, I was like, oh my gosh, it was a great year. Amazing year. So do that 15%. And then yeah, if there's other things you want to do outside of that, then go and do it. Just make sure you have the money for it.

Good word. I think we settled that. That's good, yes. Yes. I want to be a doctor, but I can't cash flow an eight-year-long medical education. Is it always bad to take out student loans and pay them off later when I know I'm going to make really good money? I know, this is a hard one. Whew.

Medical and law is tough. Law school, medical school. Because nobody, unless you come from a lot of money, has $300,000 sitting around to cover the cost of education for a lot of these schools. Yes. So what do you tell someone as they call the Ramsey show and they go, Rachel, I want to go to med school, don't have 300 grand sitting around?

Well, I have found and talked to people that there are programs out there that you can actually apply for, you can get. And again, it's going to be school specific. So you may not be the school, the medical school you want to go to. But there are programs out there that you can, you know, you can work, you can do. It's like, I don't want to say internship because it's medical school, but there's this level that they will actually pay your way through. And there are some places that it's like, yeah, if you go and work for a certain place,

they will help as well. So there's, it's been interesting because throughout the years, it doesn't happen often. Usually we get the call of like $250,000 to be a dentist and like, we got to pay it off. Right. I mean, that's usually the call we get is on the backend, but we have talked to people that have done these like creative ways to get through higher ed and even medical school and law school that it's like, oh my gosh, it's, it's incredible. And they actually look, and I think that's the thing is actually be curious about it and

and go in and research and talk to people because there are other options out there. Again, there's SLEP. I'm not saying it's like everywhere available all the time.

But just go and get creative about it and be curious about it because you will find other options. I just don't like the idea of this is it. This is it. This is all you got to do and that's what it's going to be. And life happens and we hear those calls too, George, where someone's in the middle of medical school. Or you might not graduate. Something happens with their family. Yes, and then they have to drop out and then they have $100,000. They don't forgive your loans just because you didn't finish. You still have to pay back every cent. So it's still a level of risk even though, yes, you probably will make great money

you know, at the end as you're starting to work and everything. And you could stair-step it and go, all right, I'm going to become a nurse practitioner and then wait, save up, get some experience, and then go for the MD. So there's other ways to do it. There's a lot of options out there. But just saying, no, whatever, just going to go for a hundred grand debt and hope for the best, not a great plan. Yes. And I have some family that's in the health field. Yeah. And that's kind of how it's viewed. It's just sort of like they can't even look at the number. They just go, well, I guess...

I'll just die with it or I'll just make amazing money hopefully and pay it off quick. And just like, you know, a traditional four-year degree, every school is different. Right.

And most people don't care where you went to medical school, right? I mean, I guess if it's like, oh, I went to Harvard Medical, that's like pretty amazing, right? I mean, like, yeah, so there's certain ones that you like actually know and hear about. But overall, like, I don't know where my OBGYN went to medical school. I really don't. Like, I don't know where doctors go to school. And if he told you or she told you, you would be like, oh, I've never heard of that. I'd be like, okay, that's great. Like, I don't know. It's just, it doesn't matter. So the price is going to change too, depending on the school. So look into that too. It's a good word. Love it. Yeah.

Oh, my turn. Your turn. Sorry. I don't want to steal. Sorry. Why pause investing for any reason? It is free money. Oh, they're talking about the employer match. So we say, hey, if you're getting out of debt, pause investing, focus all of your efforts, every spare dollar you can throw at your debt. And that means bringing investing down to zero for a short time. Again, 18 to 24 months on average. Yeah, and again, people are like, well, it's free money. But what we've realized is the faster you can get out...

then you actually have the margin to go and invest 15% of your income, which is maybe step four. Instead of 3%, 4%. 3%, 4%. Yeah, most people aren't really investing like a ton, if they are even investing. There's a lot of people that aren't even in a position to invest. So the idea is to get yourself, yeah, focused, get out of debt, and then suddenly all this is freed up. Like you think about the average car payment for a new car is $737. You think about that, you think about, you know,

who knows what, like a credit card bill, a student loan payment of 400, 500. Like you add up all this debt and when all of that's freed up,

It gives you a lot of margin to do things. And most people would tell you, well, I can't invest 15% and I would dig into their finances, find out, well, they have a bunch of debt payments. Of course they can't. Right. And so getting out of debt is so important and pausing investing again, puts a fuel. It kind of lights a fire under your butt to go, I want to get out of debt even faster so I can get back to investing. If you're really that excited about it, you would want to free up that payment to throw into the market. It's good. Love it. I have so many. You got two. Two.

Is internet safety actually something I should care about? This is a plant, Rachel. You planted this one. I love delete me. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I just wanted to talk about delete me. Because it is true, George, regardless of where you are financially, we have to be thinking about this because our data is out there, y'all. I mean, think about all the forms you fill out online. I mean, there is so much that we do online and our information is there. And this is what makes me mad, George. Can I just tell you what makes me mad? Please. That these companies go and get your data and then they don't.

And then they take it together and they're like, hey, company over here, I'll sell you George and Rachel's data for money. They're making money off of us, these data brokers. Give me a cut at least. Yeah, give us something. Send us a check in the mail. Golly. Using our data and making money. So Delete Me goes in and removes your information from those websites.

And it's a beautiful thing because we want to be protective of our data these days. Yes, because you're playing offense when it comes to the baby steps, but you also got to play defense. And that comes into play with your insurance and products like this to protect you online from the risks of online scams. And so if you want to check it out, they're giving our listeners a great discount, 20% off any of their plans. They're already super affordable. Go to joindeleteeme.com slash smartmoney. I just got my parents on this. Oh, you did? Yeah.

Mr. and Mrs. Camel. They're stoked on it because their information was all over. I was like, Mom, Dad, this is not okay. Yes, yep. Get that out of here. So get your info out of there, and they'll send you a report showing you exactly what they've done and how much time they've saved you. I'm at 66 hours. Don't like to brag, but I'm beating you. Sounds a little braggadocious. I'm beating you. Yeah, you are. That's amazing. Well, so great. We'll drop a link in the description as well. Check out Delete Me. All right, since you got another one. Yeah, keep going. I have a bonus question.

Is it so bad, Rachel, to dip into my emergency fund savings for a summer vacation? Why is it just so bad? For the blank that I feel like is an emergency because I want it really bad. I know.

So, and this is always funny to me because to me, the emergency fund, I'm like, I don't want to touch it. Like, I don't want, I'm like. It is a truly breaking case of emergency. Yes, yes. So, yeah, I mean, the emergency fund is there for an emergency. And that's when things come up that are unexpected. They're urgent. And they are necessary. It's like pop quiz. And so it's just there as your safety net. So saving beyond that for things that you want is so key. Yeah.

George, are we so legalistic? Is this episode? I don't know. Are we nitpicking? No one's having a good time. Are we just taking a hair and we're just splitting it? Just, I don't know. Here's the thing. I'm not legalistic at all. I just feel like the people who say these things are also the ones who aren't making progress, but then want to complain that the plan doesn't work because they're not doing it. Yes, that's good, George. If I was your personal trainer and I was like, Rachel, follow this workout plan and this diet plan. And you said, well,

I tweaked it a little bit. And then I get mad that I'm like, where's my results? I went to Sonic twice this week. Does that matter? The mozzarella sticks.

They're so good. They're just so good. Yeah, but then you're like, but I'm not looking great. And your trainer's like, well, I'm sorry. That's the thing. If you want results, follow the plan. I think that's it, y'all. Yes, because I'm like, we're being nitpicky on some of this stuff. But also, we have to be nitpicky on it because it's things that have come up that we've realized people get screwed on. So the emergency fund, someone uses it for their vacation. And then what happens? Like something happens with their car.

You know, they lose a job and then they're like, oh no, what do I do? It's like, there's a reason that all of these things have come up and why we have those answers. So we love you. There's grace in life. We want to see you win. Things are going to happen, but we do. And this is like the most effective painless way to live. Painless? Yeah.

Painless, yeah. It's hard, though. Well, there's sacrifice involved. Yes, there's a little bit of pain there. Do you want pain for the next 25 years of being stressed and broke and not getting ahead? Or do you want to sacrifice for 18 months, sell some crap, work a little harder, get out of the debt so that you can have the next 25 years of freedom? Freeze it up. Flexibility. That's what we want for you. So it's the fastest way to go from point A to point B, and we are here for you. We're not fuddy-duddies. I know. I just felt like we were just being like...

Pecky. There's a reason why. Rachel doesn't like conflict. She wants everyone to have a good time. No, I like conflict. I like a good debate. Get me and debate me. Fine. We'll debate on this next one. Those were my fists. I'll play devil's advocate on the next one. How about that? Okay, that's fine. Let's do that. Is it okay to do the baby steps a little out of order? We already have a college fund saved for my eighth grader, and I don't want to give that up now to pay off debt. Well, I would say, yeah. I mean, I would not take money out of the college fund to pay off debt, so just pause it. Keep it there.

But Rachel, you always talk about the power of compound growth and how important it is to invest early and often and consistently. Yeah, but all of that money that's sitting in that fund is getting compound interest.

Your money is making money. But it needs to be more. Have you seen the cost of education, Rachel? It's out of control. I know. Well, then you may have to choose a different school if your students don't have the money. If they don't go to my alma mater, what's the point of anything? They got to go to my sorority that I went to. I was going to say they don't rush. They don't rush my sorority. Live in the same dorm and I'm willing to pay 10 times the price I paid for the privilege. Man, how much do you think that kind of parenting and parenting in general is so much the parents' issue and not the kids'?

It's almost 100% the parents. And I don't get that. And the parents train the entitlement into the kids. I love the University of Tennessee. Go Vols. Like, I am. I cheer for them, love them. But I don't understand this whole college of like, oh my God, you have to go to the school I went to. I don't get that. Who loves college that much? I think, you know, the truth is,

The parents, it was like their heyday. It was the last time they had freedom. They were cool. They were carefree. Do you think that's it? And now they're fuddy-duddy parents and they want to relive the glory days vicariously through their kid. But see, I think it's less of like, oh, the fun of it. I think it's like this ego of like... Yeah, I think it's more pride than like fun because they could go have fun anywhere. That's why I didn't go to like a cool college. I wanted to go to a college so not cool that I never was like, you got to go to my college. It was so cool. You know what I mean?

You chose it purposely for that reason? I purposely chose it. Why? I chose a small private Christian school that had like a thousand kids. I know you did, but you did that just to give the middle finger to like this like idea. No, I did it because I liked the idea. I'm stressed out by groups of people. I was like, I don't want to be 20,000 people. It's too much. No. I know. So I don't know. Yeah. No real reason. So I would say to that question, yes, then you may have to change schools, meaning go in state community college.

I'm having fun. But the truth is you've got to put your own mask on first, and that means getting out of debt. Junior will figure out college. Between what you've saved in scholarships and working part-time, they'll figure it out. But you need to retire someday. Yeah, you're going to retire. So don't live with debt forever. That's my take. So good, George. All right. Money is so tight. I cannot imagine giving up 10% of what little margin I have for tithing or generosity. Is it okay not to prioritize giving right now? Yeah.

This is a good one. This is a tough one because a lot of people go, well, Rachel, you're telling me to be so intentional and throw every dollar at the debt. Why would I give 10% to my church or this charity when I could be using it to get out of debt faster? That's right. Yeah, so when it comes to giving, for me, I think it's one of these things we put into our lives as a rhythm that it is like this is just part of what we do. And there is something about giving

Again, I don't want to be legalistic with it, especially with giving. That's really sad to be legalistic about something that's so good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So again, give a little until you can give a lot. Like whatever. We recommend 10%. It's just kind of this baseline. And as Christians, right? Like that's in scripture. You're a person of faith. Yeah, there's a level of that. That's a part of it. That's a good baseline. Because money is so much more than just the money. Like it is so much about the person. And when you are giving, what you are doing is releasing a level of that control and opening your hands and

And just saying, yeah, this is, this is world in my life is not all about me. Like there's a level of selflessness that starts to happen when you open your hands and you give a little. And when you do that over time, and as you start to build wealth, it just is a part of who you are. You are a giver. Because let me tell you, if you build wealth, I think sometimes the more money you get, the harder it is to give. Because you see a dollar amount and you're just like, oh my gosh, like that's a lot of that 10% of that income. Yeah.

And if you're not in the rhythm of it, it can be harder to finagle. It's not that big of a deal. You know, you can kind of talk yourself out of it too. And so when it does, when your income grows as you're building wealth and all the things and giving is a part of your life, that continues to magnify who you are. And that's what we want for you. Like money is not going to make you happy. It's not.

Like, it's not. And we live in a world where the center of so much of what we do is to be successful and to like make a lot of money and earn a lot of money. And it's just like money, money, money, money, money. But you're missing the point, if that's it. The point of building wealth is to, yes, change your family tree, enjoy it. Yeah. But it's also to help people and to give, like use it as a great tool in life. And I just think you miss that opportunity regardless of where you are in the baby steps. So much tact, so much wisdom. Wow. Wow.

Preach it. Well, the only thing I'll add to that, I wrote in my book Breaking Free from Broke, I have a whole chapter called Generosity is Joy where I break down not just like the spiritual aspects of like the benefits there, but also the scientific benefits of giving.

Like you live longer, you have less stress, you're a more attractive person. It's more contagious. And I do think there's a piece of it where you have a flat tire in life. If you're so good at saving and investing, but you're terrible at giving. Yes. Or if you're a great spender, but you can't save. You want to have a well-rounded tire there to keep it inflated. And that means being able to give, being able to spend, being able to save. Those are the healthiest people I've found. Yes. Again, it's that well-roundedness. I love that. All right, George, let's do our last one.

We went through the whole fishbowl, y'all. I'm impressed. Let's end on a doozy. I'm proud of owning my house at age 24, but my income isn't high enough to handle a 15-year mortgage payment. The 30-year is decent, right? So here's the way I hear it. This is what I get a lot. Why wouldn't I do the 30-year mortgage and give myself wiggle room? The obsession with wiggle room is fascinating. Oh my God.

But it's always about wiggle room. They're like, well, Rachel, I can pay it off like a 15 if I want to. Wiggle room. Let me have a lower payment. I'm like...

Why don't we think that way with all types of debt? Well, give me the car payment that's lower and extend the terms by a double. You'd be like, no, no, no, no, I'm getting ripped off. But with mortgages, all of a sudden we go, this is the smart thing to do. And we know how to do math. Yes. The math says you will spend over double in interest. I mean, so much in interest. Because the time is double, but also the interest rate is usually slightly higher on a 30-year. That's right. And now with interest rates where they're at, you could be paying hundreds of thousands. I did the math on this.

you have a $300,000 loan, you could end up paying $430,000 in interest. So you ended up paying over double what the house is actually worth for the pleasure of the 30-year. Yes. And everyone has great intentions, but the fall of humanity has already happened long ago. I don't think if you get a 30-year, you're going to pay it off in seven years. Yeah. But I think if you get a 15, the chances of you paying it off in 10 or 7, much higher. Yeah, I agree with that.

And again, I think that there's things and even some of these questions in today's episode, you know, in the grand scheme of life, can I just be a little gray here? It's like, you're not off the rails, right? It's like, that's one that it's like- It's not a sin. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not like, oh my gosh, you're like, you know, you've left the Ramsey plan, right? Right.

But our whole point of this is like, what's the fastest way? What's the most effective way to get you from point A from where you are to point B? The most probable way. Yes, to be debt-free, build wealth, invest, be smart, be wise, have peace with this part of your life, like all of that, right? We want to do that as quickly as possible.

And we have found, yeah, the 15-year, getting out, putting yourself in a system that's going to get you out of debt. And half the time, even if you followed it 15 years, but we also find that people are paying off their houses in like 10, 11, 9 years. Like we're kind of getting all over the map in those years that people are doing the baby steps. So again, it just kind of puts you in the system, kind of a forced payoff plan. And it works. Yeah. And it works. And here's the deal. When you have the wiggle room, you'll take it.

You know what I mean? You'll go, well... Your lifestyle creeps slowly over time. Yeah, we could spend that money on this instead. And how many people are really investing the difference? Close to zero. Right. That's exactly right. Not buying it. Not buying it here. Soapbox over. All right, George, what do you think? We really, we really... What is the end? I mean, this was a real bummer of an episode. But here's the thing.

I wanted to address it because I think people think, well, they don't ever talk about this and I'm the exception. We're not saying that you can't be successful, that you can't be wealthy if you don't follow the Ramsey plan to a T. But I also know that if you do follow it to a T, you will find success. Yes. So like it ain't broke. And faster. You don't need to fix it. That's right. And so is it harder? Yes. What you're really saying is,

I don't want to sacrifice more. I don't want to work harder. I don't want to save up a bigger down payment or have to go further out of town to find that house. I don't want to have to figure out how to use a debit card to rent a car, even though I know it's possible. It's all these hoops that are in our minds. And really, we just want convenience.

because it's a tough time to be alive. So I have a lot of empathy for everyone out there that says, I'm going to do it my way. That's fine. Just don't complain to me when it doesn't go your way and you're not making the progress you want to make. Yeah, there you go. Coach George. Yeah. Coach George. Nothing says Coach George like wearing whatever this old woman jacket is. What would you be a coach of? Chess? Is there a chess coach?

Come on. What would be your sport that you'd coach? Is chess considered a sport? No, I don't know. I just thought of it. I think it is amongst chess professionals. Have you seen the puzzle competitions? What if you're like a ref for a puzzle? I'm going to go Little League badminton.

It's just bougie enough. Just bougie enough. Yeah, if your child is playing badminton, you're living pretty good life. You're living okay. I don't think you need smart money. I don't think I have to yell at the kids. I don't need to yell at the kids. Okay. You know what I mean? We're there to have a good time. I'd be a swim coach. Not because I'm a great swimmer. I just like the like...

I just feel like it's intense. Go, go, go, go. I think the smell of chlorine would be enough to steer me away from that. Yeah, that's true. And the sound of indoor pools with the noise plus the smell. That's fair. It's a trigger for me. That's fair. But good for you. Were you a big swimmer growing up? Nope, nope. Never done it in my life. Can you swim? I just felt like, can I swim? Like professionally? Like the strokes or like... Survival. How long could you last in a lake? Yes.

I could float for a long time. I'd just kick my feet back and wait for that rescue to happen. You think it would just happen for you? You're like, I'm Rachel Cruz. I think they'd find me. Do you have a chip to where they could find you, like a dog? No, I'm a good swimmer. Are you a good swimmer? No, terrible. Never learned growing up. Wasn't a big swimming family. What? Yeah, I could stay afloat. I'm not saying that you'd throw me in a pool. I'm like, duh. Yeah.

But not trying to hang out in water where I can't touch the ground. Not enjoyable for me. You know what I mean? I'm there for a good time, not to impress anyone. Okay, if you're over, if you and Whitney are hanging out at our house, and one of my kids pushes you in our pool on the deep end, how are you getting to the side? Give me like a motion. I will say this. It won't be pretty. It will look masculine in the way I flail my muscles, but it won't be like, wow, that was so...

The way he crossed. It's going to be like, you know, I do like floaties. I think floaties are underrated. Just going to put it out there. So good. All right. So glad. Okay. Well, before we spill the tea on our guilty as charged, let's give our drink a rating, shall we? Yeah, this is a cranberry fizz mocktail. Let me do one more to make sure before I land my rating.

I'm going 9 out of 10. Wow. I liked it. I'm going to go 7 out of 10. Okay. I wanted it to be a little sweeter, a little more sour, a little more tart, just a little more of everything that it wanted to be. It tried. You know what I mean? But it was a very good drink, and I'll say aesthetically...

10 out of 10. It's kind of like a mocktail-ish. Yeah. I always underestimate how sugar on a rim will just get on everything and make it stink. So I'm still not sure about sugar rims, but it was great. Here's what's in it. It's got rosemary thyme syrup, which includes rosemary, thyme, maple syrup, and water. It's got cranberry juice, cranberry sparkling water, and the garnish...

that was adorned is maple syrup or honey, and then you use coarse sugar around the rim with whole cranberries and rosemary inside the drink. Wow. That's a lot of effort. Thank you all. And this is not a cheap mocktail. $3.82 per glass. Oh, yeah, that's a pricey one. So this is one you want to pull out with the fine china if you want to impress the in-laws. Yeah. That's what I'm going to categorize this. So get the recipe in the show notes. Give it a try this weekend. Get the kids involved. It's a mocktail. Have some fun with it. I love it.

All right, George, now it's time for Guilty as Charged. And this is where our producer Kelly gives us a new guilty as charged question every week. And if we're guilty, we take a sip. All right. If you were not a Ramsey personality and you didn't know anything about our principles, which Ramsey thing would you be most likely to slip on?

Oh, great question. So you were men in black, your memory is gone, you don't know who you are. Credit cards. That was way too easy. How long have you been dreaming of this? For sure. Okay, why credit cards for you? Well, I'm a spender, so it's going to be something in the spending. It probably wouldn't be in like the investment saving side. It would be in the spending side. And I would totally play the game, the airline miles, the, yeah, all that stuff. I would totally play into that.

Because you would go, well, I spend enough that I'll get the rewards and you do like to travel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would finagle all of that. Would you have like 16 cards or whatever? Like you think you'd be really maximizing? That's a good question. Or would you have like, oh, here's my three cards. I have one for travel. I have one, you know. I think I would probably just do like a travel. Have a card, but all the points go to travel because I love to travel.

And I like bougie travel. So if I get like the lounge, right? Oh, yeah. Or upgrade to first class with miles, like you kind of get perks, right? That's part of their selling point. Yeah.

So I don't need perks to like Amazon. I don't need perks for like a specific store credit card. Like a Target, I don't think I want perks. I think I want perks for travel. So for me, knowing that I'm not going to have credit cards because I think I would massively overspend to play into that whole like perks. While telling yourself, I would spend exactly the same on a debit card. Yes, that would be me. I mean, seriously. But a debit card, it keeps me in check. And there's something about spending in the present. Right.

In the moment, like literally when I know I'm buying something, it's going right out of my account. There's no delay. You feel it more. Yes, it's an instant feeling knowing that this is happening. It's not a delayed response for later on. And it gives you a level of control. And I like the idea too of at the end of the month, there's not a bill.

Literally, you just pay your way through life and it's great, right? We have bills for like electricity and cable or those. But just to know that our life from our out to eat, grocery, like everything that we're doing, it's done. It's done. You're living in the now and you're building for the future. And it keeps me in a safe place. Yes, there's no risk in that because it forces you into a system of living within your means when you're living with debit. And that's genuinely a better place to be. I would much rather have peace

than to have those like extra airline miles, right? Because I can save up with the money I wasn't spending on a credit card and still like travel well. That's what we do. That's what I do. That's great. And here's the thing. We are $0 in debit card debt as a nation. We are $1.2 trillion in credit card debt as a nation. So don't tell me that they're the same and that you use it... Like if that was the case, we'd all be doing great. But here we are, record levels of debt. It's only going up and up and up. And for those reasons...

I can't go into debt using a debit card. That's right. It's impossible. So I like that level of having some discipline. I would rather chase peace than anything. That's good. All right. Okay, how about you, George? Yours would be like investments, I feel like.

Oh, that's true. I might, if I was Ramsey-ish, did know Ramsey, I would go like, oh, I'm going to invest up to the match and I'll take on a 30-year mortgage. Those would be my two things I would probably do if I had no idea. I was just going in blind. I'd probably be living that life. Yeah. And I think the 30-year mortgage I could justify because I go, well, I could invest the difference. I could probably make more in the market if I'm going to be a mathematical nerd. Yes. Instead of chasing freedom, I'd be chasing a spread on some investment opportunity.

And probably get burned on it eventually and probably still be in debt. Yes. But be like, well, it's okay. You know, I've talked to some friends who are like, well, I still have my student loans even though I could pay it off because it's a low interest. Totally. So that would be me. Yeah, you'd play the math game a lot. I could see that. I would be bragging about my low interest on my mortgage instead of bragging that I don't have a mortgage and that I have a 0% rate. Mm-hmm.

So happy to be on the other side. That's good, George. Good for you. I'm glad to know what I know. You know, ignorance was bliss until you were just like, oh, there's a different, better way? Yeah. Let's try that. Yeah. So that's my encouragement to all of you. Just...

Just try the Ramsey plan as is, not a la carte, and just see what happens and see if you don't make more progress than you ever thought. So good, George. Well, this was a fun, fun episode. Fun for you. I took a sip. It was fun. And if you enjoyed this episode, make sure to leave us a review and check out our other episode on our most hated advice. And that episode is after this. And make sure to subscribe to the channel so you don't miss an all new episode next Thursday of...

Smart Money Happy Hour.