Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
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Over the next few years, I actually still played in the same band with the same group of guys, but we changed music genres many times over the years. We played with a lot of local bands, and Tiffany actually was
dating a guy in this local band that we really looked up to. He was in a signed band and they toured all the time and they were from our city so they were just like the coolest of the coolest and I slowly became friends with Tiffany over time. Over the years, I would see Tiffany from time to time at different shows or events and was friendly with her.
While I was going to college, one of my classmates was actually one of Tiffany's best friends. And Tiffany started hanging out around the school more. We were chatting and I actually was looking for a job at the time. And Tiffany said, "Hey, I work at Starbucks and we're always hiring." And I was like, "I have a lot of coffee experience." So she actually hooked me up with the job application and I ended up getting the job there.
Within about two weeks of me starting the job and having a new friend at this job, Tiffany quit. Our first close interactions, Tiffany was putting money into the safe at Starbucks and I was turning around and didn't realize she was behind me and my hand totally grazed her ass. And she turned around and looked so shocked and just insulted and I felt so embarrassed.
Like, I really hope she doesn't fucking think that I did this on purpose. And she's like, did you just touch my ass? Which I didn't expect to be confronted so heartily. And I just said, yep.
What did I do? Did I laugh? You looked at me and realized that I was just being sarcastic like you're not a creep perv. I just didn't want to deny it because I definitely did. It was just definitely an accident. So, after Starbucks, after Tiffany quit, we still only saw each other occasionally although I thought we were gonna be seeing a lot more of each other especially after the accidental butt touch. We eventually...
It was through our mutual friend, Isaac. We ended up hanging out, me and Tiffany and Isaac and another girlfriend of ours. I've always been very sarcastic and not afraid to be sarcastic in hopes that people knew the niceness of my personality will shine through those stupid or sarcastic statements.
And I laughed so hard.
Which if you knew me, you knew that I was saving myself for marriage. You would know how out of character that was for me to actually mean to say that. That was actually the day we had our first date. Being as though at this point still I was playing in a band and don't think I had a job at the time. My entire life savings was in the ashtray of my 1988 Honda Civic. So, I asked Tiffany out on a date to 7-Eleven.
The day that I did ask you to be my girlfriend, I believe I asked you if I could ask you a question and you said yes. And then it then proceeded to take me about 45 minutes. Yeah, it was about 45 minutes before I could actually get to asking you to be my girlfriend.
I was raised in a conservative Christian household, charismatic Pentecostal Christian family background. My father was the leader of the house. Really, his opinion is the opinion that mattered. There
There wasn't really much opportunity to speak up or to voice your opinion and if you did voice your opinion, you were talking back. So, I learned to not voice my opinion. Going into Tiffany's house and her family dynamic was completely the opposite of that. It was if you had an opinion, you were definitely going to say it. Just people screaming over each other. They did get to share their opinions.
Although I don't know if anybody actually heard their opinions ever or if they mattered anyway in the end. But it was a lot different than my house. Like when we first started dating, Tiffany had told me about her dad having gone to prison. I could tell she was nervous to tell me that like it might be some sort of deal breaker. I also had a lot of extended family.
family who struggled with substance use issues, going in and out of jail or prison most of my life. So that sort of news was not drastic information for me to hear. It was something that I had experience with and it wasn't something I based a lot of judgments on.
Bob never discussed any stories about his first time going to prison. I always felt like your dad's drinking was less impactful on how shitty of a person he was. His criminality was much more hidden. Meeting Tiffany's dad, he's a jovial, happy guy, never would guess the stuff that he did
He's like the true definition of a dog who's licking your face while pissing on your leg because you're having so much fun, but then you realize you're getting fucked over. You think you know me, you don't know me. What's wrong?
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One of the things that I remember the most about Bobby was that he was very passionate. He was 15 when we first met. He was really into skateboarding. He was really into symphonic metal at the time, which was not my favorite genre of metal. But there's some common themes that we could bond over. As much as I love music, I'm always down to experience new bands and listen to new things. And he was more than happy to show me the newest CD that he had got.
I remember him being very passionate about his hobbies and the stuff that he liked to do. You know, he's also very, like, kind and thoughtful even to his detriment in a sense.
I went to Humboldt and then I moved to Rockland and then I moved to Auburn and then my dad went to jail the first time. After Bob got out of jail, he was on an ankle monitor. There was a period where they were sober. My parents, in addition to the like family is everything mentality and scripting that they gave us, they also tried their best to convince us that alcohol was to blame.
So I started to essentially believe that sobriety was the key to a change in my parents' behavior. I do think that clearly alcohol and substance use accelerated their abusive behavior, but a piece of a much larger picture.
The reason why I highlight this is because I think myself as well as Bobby started to think that if they could just eliminate alcohol, that that would solve the problems and that alcohol had caused all of our problems, not the behavior and attitudes and actions of Bob and Liz, but essentially that alcohol had forced that behavior or was to blame for that behavior. Because I was young and inexperienced,
It made it a lot easier for me to sort of comprehend how horrific they had been. It was more convenient to believe that eliminating alcohol would eliminate the problem. But that period of time did not last long. And fairly quickly, they started drinking and using again and chaos ensued.
I had moved. I was renting rooms from people, sleeping in my car, whatever it took to not be around them because it was just too emotionally taxing. I would stay a lot with my friends and their parents. And I'm very thankful to anybody who ever gave me a safe place to sleep when I didn't want to go home because it was a different kind of relief. It was significant.
My mom and Bob started drinking again, and that's when they started National Medical Services. My mom started being really abusive and volatile and aggressive towards me again. And to be clear, the reason why I would return after I moved out was twofold. One, California is so expensive.
I was putting myself through college and it was very difficult. So it was constantly assessing which was scarier, experiencing homelessness or having to deal with my parents. I tried to stick to myself, would check in on Bobby, handle my business and move on. But the second reason was that I wanted to be there for Bobby. I knew he didn't have a stable parent in his life. And my dad constantly made me feel like it was my responsibility to do so.
A term I learned later in life through a coworker, she said something to me about her partner having been put in a role. It's called surrogate spouse. Essentially, the idea is that when a child is parentified and they have a single parent or there's some sort of gap in the parental relationship and the child essentially becomes in a non-sexual way, like a surrogate spouse. And I feel like my dad made me his surrogate spouse intentionally.
in a lot of ways, again, in a completely non-sexual way. Your mom wasn't functioning a lot, right? She was drunk too much of the time. I mean, as the safest... Yeah, she just wanted somebody to babysit, basically. Yeah. Like, he needed somebody to be in charge, make sure she was alive, make sure that Bobby was okay. Yeah.
You've also said in the past, he's used you as a tool as like an eight-year-old in the office, right? So of course he's going to continue that because now as you're entering adulthood, of course he's going to use you for that. Not because he should, but because of his unhealthy boundaries. Well, yeah, he's a user. That's what users do. Because of years and years and years of manipulation that was already laid before all of this came, I wouldn't...
I would go and I would try, but my mom was so abusive and so difficult to be around. The volatility and everything, it would just become too much. This new house would be the last house that we all lived together in at any time as a family. They were definitely purchasing a house that they could not afford anymore.
And it was right before the housing market crash of 2008. They were definitely in that group of people who were given loans for houses that they couldn't afford.
It makes absolutely no sense that they were able to even get into this house. It was an extremely nice house in a very nice neighborhood. And they were bouncing back from my dad coming out of jail. So they get into this very nice house. And it's so strange because, again, they're living in a place that they can't afford with no money. How is this peaceful to you? Bobby was struggling. He was traumatized.
He had been through so much and then it's like you're just expected to go to school and perform when you're navigating so much emotional stuff. Even adults struggle to perform when they're going through very deep waves of grief and depression and responding from trauma. So I wanted to be there as much as possible, but it got to a place of needing to protect myself. I had gotten a job at Benefit Cosmetics. I hated the sales part, but I loved doing makeup and making people feel good and working with people. I had
I had already graduated with my liberal arts degree, AA degree, but I started taking fashion courses because I wanted to potentially transfer to get my four-year degree in fashion and merchandising.
Michael had actually worked with Bob at National Medical Services. When your mom was not absolutely intoxicated or on alcohol or pills or both and like sleeping on the couch, when I first started working with Bob at the office, she was still, quote, working there.
What that consisted of was her coming in, looking at a computer for about 30 minutes, maybe, maybe making a phone call, and then she would go out to lunch.
Then she would come back and sleep on the hospital bed that was in the office. That's literally like when I used to work in the office with my dad when I was a kid. She seemed like she only went in to do the stuff that she like had to take care of. While I was working for Bob, one of my jobs would be to answer phones when he said I should answer the phone.
Which, looking back, I realized that he wanted me to answer the phones when he knew that debt collectors would be calling. They would call and ask for Bob and I'd tell him he's not in the office because he would tell me he was busy. Like, hey, don't let anybody know I'm here. I have a lot of stuff to do in the office. And I'd say, okay, you know, no problem. Let me take care of that for you. I would get a phone call and it would be somebody saying, hey, I'm looking for this chair that was supposed to be delivered today.
And I would say, hey, you know, give me one minute. Bob told me that, I don't know what story he made up, but he said that because his credit was bad because somebody screwed him over, he couldn't put the business under his name. So he had to put it under his stepson's name. And he was the true owner. And that if anybody called looking for Bob, tell them that Bob was not in and that they need to get a hold of Tony.
Well, Tony was never, ever in the office because Tony didn't actually do anything there. He literally had like no idea of anything that was going on.
Except for the fact that he had authorized his stepdad to help him out in the beginning to start his business. He had nothing else to do with it. He would tell me to let him know that Tony was going to return their call or that he would be in office later. And he never, ever was in office later. Oftentimes, he was really excited to tell you anything you had to do. He made everything sound so exciting. That's okay.
I would have to dust the showroom a couple times a day and he would get the dusters and he would really excitedly show me how he wanted things dusted and then dust maybe about half of it and then tell me to go back over all of it. There was a time where he needed me to move all of the medical equipment from one storage unit to the other.
And then two days later, I needed to take it from that one and split it into two other new ones. And he was very excited to tell me what to do and how to do it and how to organize it every single time. And he was always very excited, even though you knew it was miserable news. He also was a really big fan of people being clean. And he would often say to me before I touched anything in the office when I came in,
He would ask me if I washed my hands, and he would tell me that clean hands were happy hands. Fuck. Oh, wow. That took me back. He never said anything racist to me about being Puerto Rican that I can recall. Most of the stuff he said to me that was offensive was homophobic. He would say a lot of homophobic statements, and I had to tell him to stop talking to me like that, and I don't want to hear it because I disagree with what he's saying. And he would laugh it off like, oh, you don't get the joke kind of a thing, you know?
To me, it wasn't a joke. I could sense that he might say it in a joking voice, but he really meant what he was saying. Tradition, as it was explained to me and your family, you guys would go out to Chinese food on Christmas Eve. We were at your house.
And everybody's getting ready to go. You were probably upstairs still getting ready. I was downstairs with your dad and your brother and his girlfriend waiting. Your dad said that he had like a cough and needed to take some cough medicine. So he went into the pantry in the kitchen and I was thirsty. So I got up to go get a drink of water in the kitchen. And the pantry is right next to the refrigerator where you get the water. And
And I remember walking over to grab a glass and just looking into the pantry and your dad had like a whole 750 milliliter bottle of gin. I saw him unscrew the cap and I could hear the thing crack open, right? Like it was brand new and I could see that it was full. And he literally took this and just chugged it joyfully. Like I don't know how to explain it in a way. Like
Like when I see our kids get like a slurpee, they get so excited. You know what I mean? I just saw him do that. We're about to leave. He said he was going to drive us. There's absolutely no fucking way I'm going to get in the car with this guy. You came downstairs or I went upstairs where you were getting ready and
Like, hey, your dad said he was going to take some cough medicine, but I literally just saw him chug a full bottle of gin faster than I've ever seen anybody drink. And his face is like completely red purple now. Can we drive our own car? To me, it was a surprise. But to you, you kind of rolled your eyes like, are you fucking kidding me? I could just tell it's happened before. You just went downstairs and confronted your dad like immediately. Yeah.
That's not what I wanted. I'm not a confrontational person like that. And I was trying to be like, hey, let's make an excuse to we take our own car. But you were like, nope. And went downstairs and were like, did you just drink a full bottle of gin? Because he was going to drive Bobby in the car. Yeah, because he was going to drive. We took our own car. Bobby and his girlfriend took their own car. And your dad still drove your mother. Fuck.
from Auburn to Citrus Heights, California. The Chinese food restaurant that we went to
It was a buffet that your dad had been hyping up to us, saying how wonderful it was and me being a young person without a whole lot of money was always excited to eat at a buffet. When confronted about drinking it, he like laughed and he was just like, no, I didn't do that. Like it was a joke. And of course, he's getting more drunk as time goes by. Yeah.
And we go into, we sit down to eat at the buffet, which you hate. I hate buffets. Hate buffets. So we're all feeling awkward already. Bob was wasted, but when he was wasted, he was like a happy drunk, did stupid shit, but was generally joyful about it. He wasn't like flipping out on us or anything. He was happy and joyful. We sat down and at this buffet, the highlight...
The highlight of the buffet were the crab legs, as they should be. I went and got a plate and I didn't get any crab legs because people snag them as soon as the tray comes out, people were snagging them and Liz comes back to the table and
lamenting over the fact that she didn't get any. She was already mad at your dad. Right. I think mostly because he started drinking without her is the way it felt. So, your dad, drunk off his ass, leaves the table and he's gone for a little bit and we're like, what is he doing? We see him come back and I could see him straight away walking from the other side of the buffet line with the biggest smile on his face and
And the only thing that was bigger than the smile on his face was the pile of crab legs that he had got for your mom. The whole plate, dinner plate was piled at least eight to ten inches in a giant dome of crab legs. You could tell as soon as Liz saw it, not only was she embarrassed that he had done this,
She was insulted that he would possibly ever think that she could eat that many crab legs. He sat him down. She wasn't happy. He was like, what? I got the crab legs. You wanted the crab legs. You were complaining. You were unhappy and I got the crab legs. And then your mom got up and left the restaurant at that point and waited in the car. Yeah, she threw a fit. She threw a fit. As she did. Stormed off.
I remember you were like, "You could stay the night at my house." I was like, "No, I'm not going to do that. That makes me feel so uncomfortable. I don't want to be disrespectful to your parents." I slept on the couch actually downstairs for a little while because I still didn't want to be disrespectful. I did sleep in your room eventually. I remember not really knowing your mom at all and her telling us she wanted to talk to us one day.
You were like, oh God. And me being like, what's happening? Your mom wants to actually talk to us? We sat down at the kitchen table and at first she sounded like a normal person. Then before you know it, she's screaming, if you want to fuck my daughter, get a fucking hotel room. And I'm just like, I'm not, not in your house. Never. I thought she was going to talk to us about like dating or something. You know what I mean? Something motherly or
I remember she said, your dad said he doesn't like waking up and seeing Michael's shoes in the morning. But my brothers could have girls in there. Part of that conversation was your mom accusing us of leaving a condom on the top of the trash can in the bathroom. It was definitely not ours because if it was ours...
I wouldn't even have left the evidence in your house. I would have taken it to a faraway trash can to hide my sin from the world. I'm not exaggerating, but like I would have not left it in your house. I don't think your mom believed us, especially believed the fact that it was your little brother and his girlfriends who they could apparently do whatever they wanted.
After an event where my mom ended up screaming at Michael and me over something that was completely unnecessary to be screaming about, I once again packed up my stuff in a hurry and got out of there. But where I could afford to live was...
one of the most dangerous neighborhoods in Sacramento at the time. I had nothing to furnish it with. I had barely any money, but it was my space. I mean, as long as I paid my rent, it was mine. And that was like a completely different freeing feeling. I was about 19. I still was going to be struggling to even afford rent.
the rent for the one bedroom. Michael and I had a friend and this friend is known only as Dirty Luke. We love him so much. There's Dirty Luke and there's Clean Luke in our group of friends and that's just what it is. So anyways, Dirty Luke was living in a barn at this time. He was in a band. Michael was like, hey, you mentioned you're living in a barn. My girlfriend is living in this one bedroom apartment. Would you prefer to share a room with her instead? Yeah.
And he was like, sounds great. He's just like the friend that would do the wildest shit. And we love him for it. It's all love. We have two friends named Luke. And at this apartment, when all of our friends would come over, you know, and hang out all the time, it started being like a hangout spot because I was one of the first to like move out and have my own space in our group or whatever. One time somebody was asked me like, which Luke is coming over? And I said, dirty Luke. And they knew exactly what I meant. Yeah.
And from that day forward, there was dirty Luke and there was clean Luke. Everybody gets a nickname. He was the best roommate I ever had. He's one of the sweetest guys. He's like a brother to me. I love him so much. He's married now with beautiful children and we don't get to see each other as much, but like he's forever a member of my chosen family.
It started out with just me and Dirty Luke. Michael lived with us some of the time. Our other buddy Nick lived with us some of the time. And we had great times. And it was mostly us working, going to college, partying, hanging out. At one point, we had four of us living in this one-bedroom apartment.
I actually ended up moving into the kitchen and that's where my bedroom was. And then the boys took the bedroom. But I also have so, so many good memories of that time because I was with people that I loved and we were all doing what we could to make it work.
My name is Lucas Allen, also known as Dirty Luke or Dirty or now Uncle Dirty. I met Michael from being in bands. We were both drummers. We met each other through the Roseville scene, if you will. We hit it off playing music and having the same friend group ever since we've been really good friends. I actually remember the night Tiffany and I met. We were at this venue in Roseville called the Underground.
And actually, Michael's band, Atherton, and my band, we played there quite often. So I don't remember the occasion if Michael had a show or something like that, but Tiffany was hanging out with Michael's band, and that's when we met. And she was super sweet, just very nice. And we just hit it off immediately. And soon after that, we were roommates, and we've been great friends ever since.
I actually bring up Tiffany every so often when we're talking about podcasts or something. I'll be like, "My buddy Tiffany is killing it." But as Michael and Tiffany's people might seem a little cliche, but they're very genuine and really family. Our friend group is a core group of people and couples that are more than friends. They really are family.
we would do anything for each other. They're so special to me and I'm just so grateful to have them in my life.
I could barely pay my rent. I think I had to borrow money from my roommate, Nick, and I'd pay him back when I got paid. It was just a weird time, but it was amazing because it was just hanging out with Michael and Tiffany and then Nick. I'll never forget staying with Michael and Tiffany and sharing a room and then Nick coming in. It was just amazing and a good time.
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Michael, being extremely thoughtful, had planned this special day on my birthday to take me to the Bay, San Francisco, and take me out to dinner, do something sweet. And that was a huge luxury when we had money to drive from Sacramento to the Bay, which is about an hour and a half, about 100 miles, to go into the city. And to be able to have a day was such a treat. So he was planning to do this. I was
I was working at the benefit counter and I was closing. I get a call on the floor. It was my mom. She said, Bobby tried to take his life. He's in the emergency room. You need to come now.
I remember dropping the phone and dropping to the floor, feeling like completely frozen in fear. And there was this woman who worked with me. She and I didn't always get along, but in that moment, she and I were like the only people working near each other.
I told her what they said on the phone and without a hesitation she said, "You can't drive. I'll drive you to Michael and he can drive you." Because you know it was going to be like a 30-45 minute drive to this hospital and she could see that I was in no position to drive. I'll never forget that act of kindness especially from someone who didn't particularly like me. She drove me to our apartment and then Michael drove me to the emergency room in Auburn, Auburn Faith Hospital.
I think he had taken some pills and they had had to pump his stomach and put charcoal in a tube down his throat. And I just remember going into the hospital and seeing him just so thin and hooked up in tubes and just wanting to disassociate into the sky because the pain was so significant to see somebody that I loved so much die.
feel this desperate for relief from their mental anguish to even consider this possibility as their only option. I felt like I had failed him. It was really difficult and I felt so heartbroken for him. Thankfully, he was treated at the hospital and then he was 5150 as California state law requires. He was held in a mental health facility for 48 or 72 hours. I don't recall.
It would not be the last time that I would see a family member in that position or that I would visit a family member in a psychiatric facility. But it was the most difficult to see Bobby like that because I loved him so much and I just wanted him to be happy. Then I felt like there had been so much that had been done to him that that may not be possible at this point. And I really worried for his mental health.
mental health sorry just like it i just want you to know i'm actively listening i'm wrapping you with love i'm hugging you thank you for listening of course i'm so sorry i'm so sorry it was actually my birthday by the time i got there i mean i've always kind of hated my birthday but i really hated it after that and it took many years for me to finally start liking my birthday again somehow i just felt so guilty that it was my birthday and this was happening i don't know it's so weird i
how much guilt you can put on yourself that you don't deserve. He was in the facility and Michael was like, if you want to still go, I'd still love to take you. Maybe it'll be a good distraction. It's just the two of us going and I love going on long drives and it's like bomb to my soul. So we went and we were listening to this album by Copeland, this band that I love. This album is Beneath Medicine Tree. There's a song called Testing the Strongwoods. It's
it started playing and I remember looking over at Michael and seeing tears falling from his eyes and it was the first time I had seen him cry and I remember being like are you okay and he's like yeah it just seems like it really symbolizes the moment and so it moved me and whenever I hear that song I think of that now I'll tell you I'm sorry and take this pain but it's
I think it's important and why I'm thankful for his participation. He also was harmed and impacted through a lot of this. He loved Bobby too, and it was hard for him too. He cared about him and he cared about me.
The number of victims that have been harmed by all of this trauma and the ripple effects of the chaos are abundant. That's why when I first started telling my story, I said, it's not just mine, it's many people's. And thankfully, he was there to help me carry the load. A lot of times when nobody else was, we were both two very young kids who had been through extremely abusive and violent
traumatic, painful experiences throughout our childhood. Now we were together taking care of each other, trying to help each other survive, pay bills, and survive this shit. I'm really, really thankful that I had his support and the support of my friends at this time, my chosen family. There was also incidences where my mom tried to unalive herself and she would be in a facility and
And I would do my best to support everyone through that. It's very difficult emotionally. Obviously, the person who is suffering is suffering greatly when it's your parent and they are continually trying to unalive themselves. It's very complex. And she's also your abuser. So that's a whole other layer. Right. Very layered. And it was a lot of grief and heartbreak.
God, how much fucking trauma can one person hold? Oh, we're just getting started. No, I'm just kidding. I know, but God damn. Just kidding.
Going to college and taking psychology courses started to open my mind to understanding the brain and personality and psychology and family and marriage dynamics. That was also very assuring to me because I could see in black and white what abuse was, narcissistic personality disorder, mental health challenges, how they impact people and learning and expanding my worldview.
I definitely entered college a very different person than I left it. College really opened my mind and understanding to the experiences of other people's political beliefs, religious beliefs, and things that helped me mature. Later when I was studying fashion, Michael had decided to go to culinary school and I supported him in doing that.
I supported him in doing whatever he wanted to do. Unfortunately, it meant we would be living apart for a year, but luckily it wasn't super far. He was going to a very prestigious culinary school in San Francisco. When Michael went to culinary school, our lease on the apartment we had off Sayonara was coming up and I moved out and I moved back in to the house, the last Auburn house again for a short time. Bobby...
was still going to school. Was he in like about 10th grade or so? He was in 10th and 11th grade around this time, I would say. He had gotten a girlfriend that he was very close to, and I know they had like a very special bond, and he would spend a lot of time with her. That made me feel good that he had someone else to love him and care for him in a nurturing way.
I had learned through Liz that Bob was doing shady shit again and the stuff that involved Tony's name. And essentially he stole someone else's money and started this other fraudulent business. Michael worked for Bob for a short time in the office before he went to culinary school. And I also worked sometimes if he offered to pay me.
But like neither of us had any idea of the business or what it was. And even when Liz came to me, she wasn't like, hey, your dad's committing fraud abuse against the elderly. It was never, never that. It was just like he's buying too much equipment that he can't afford to sell or he's just fucking up and he's going to mess up Tony's credit. That's all I knew. I didn't know if he was doing anything illegal at this point. None of that.
What I could sense was that they were living financially out of their means and Liz was very concerned about what was coming down the pipeline. And she was very unreachable. So most of the time when I had moved back in, like she was in her bed. I didn't see her a ton. She'd pop off sometimes, but most of the time she was intoxicated to doing her own thing. Bobby was very in and out with his friends. He would touch in here and there, check in. But like he was kind of living the life that I lived in high school, which is doing whatever the F you want. Yeah.
Tony had in some capacity agreed to let Bob put the business in his name or something like that because Bob was a convicted criminal. And that was all he agreed to. He did not agree to let Bob destroy his credit and rack up thousands and thousands of dollars in debt and all of the fuckery that he was using Tony's name, pretending to be him and operating this business. My mom tells me this and I'm horrified.
I confront Bob about it. He admits it. He says that Tony consented. I'm like, well, mom says that you are destroying his name. And he's like, no, she's just, you know, she's so fucked up. You know how she is. Tony wasn't even living near us. He was living all the way in the Bay Area, working his grown ass full time job, being a responsible adult, doing his own shit, living his own life. And I have to call him up.
And be like, hey, so you know how you helped Bob with this? Well, this is what he's allegedly doing. And Liz said he's doing a bunch of shit. And he's just like, okay. That was pretty much the whole, I mean, that's Tony for you. It's basically like, okay, I don't know what you want me to say. Something like that would be a typical response from him. And I'm just like, cool. I just thought you should know.
Later, I would discover that Bob and Liz were divorced. The way I found out, Bob was telling me that Liz had cheated on him with a 19-year-old. He happened to be like driving by and saw them making out. Okay. My mom is like a fucking 50-year-old woman at this point. He tells me this. He just says, your mom cheated on me. Tells me this story. I confront her about it when I see her the next time. Like, so dad tells me you're making out with 19-year-olds.
Like, that's what we're doing. And she's like, did he tell you that we've been divorced for over a year? And basically like, fuck you. And I was just like, no, he didn't mention that. She's like, well, we have. Okay, good to know. Because they were still living as a married couple. And clearly the divorce was related to these crimes and whatever paperwork fuckery they were up to.
Weird shit would always happen with Liz. Like, there was an alleged incident where a friend of my dad and mom's showed up at the front door of our Folsom house, knocked on the door. My mom said he confessed his love to her, kissed her, and left. And then...
My dad threatened to beat him up or beat him up afterwards. I don't know. There was an incident. We were at a gas station and she's pumping gas. I'm in the back. Some guy comes up. They kiss. It looked like a completely friendly exchange. She finishes pumping the gas. She gets in the car. I question her and she like laughs and says, oh, this guy just thought I was so hot. He came up and kissed me at the gas station.
I was getting ready for school one morning and there was a loud, the sound of like a baton rapping on the door. I hear that and I'm like, the fuck?
And then the door busts open. I hear countless people entering the household, charging up the stairs. I hear yelling and chaos. There was saying cop things. I don't, you know, like law enforcement things. I think it was SWAT. Actually, now that I think about it, it was like people were in plain clothes, but they had FBI or like SWAT type jackets. But there was like
so many of them. There was like 20 people in this raid, men and women. I hear these people like charging up the stairs. I have no idea what's going on. I am completely in shock. I think I naturally just started putting my hands up like you do when you're like, please don't shoot. I remember the officers screaming at me saying, get down, get down, put your hands on your head, screaming like you see on fucking cops. And I'm like, what is happening? And I'm like, shh.
shaking on the ground with my hands up, just like, please don't, screaming, just like, please do not shoot me. Please do not. I do not know what's going on. Please do not hurt me. I have no idea what the fuck is happening. Please, for the love of God, I have to go to school. I don't know what the fuck is happening. I'm telling them my name. I'm 19 years old. There are police everywhere. Just
ripping the house apart, tossing my room, screaming. Thank God Bobby was at school already. Bob and Liz were both there. I don't even see them. I'm just hearing things. And then some of the officers walked me down the stairs. They took me to the driveway and they told me to sit down. I think Bob and Liz were in the house. They were at the kitchen table. It's very fractured. I
memories. I don't recall seeing Bob and Liz a lot during this whole thing. I just remember being surrounded by cops with guns drawn and these vests on and they're like in plain clothes and they're just like fucking pumped and happy to be here. It's so weird. I'm on the driveway and I'm just like
what is going on? I don't understand. And they're like, we can't discuss that with you. They're like asking me questions and I don't know what the fuck they're talking about. All I could think about was that I had this assignment due that I really had worked hard on and I needed to go to school. As weird as that is, they let me go. And I went to school. I called Michael crying on the way to school.
I was attending culinary school in San Francisco and Tiffany called me. She was out of breath, upset, crying. I could not understand anything she was saying because she just was so upset. When she was finally able to calm down enough to describe the situation, because I'm starting to panic now like what is going on. SWAT busted into her house and Tiffany's room was upstairs, busted into her room. They
They held her at gunpoint while they flipped her room. And I'm like, why do they need to like hold you at gunpoint? First off, you have nothing in your room except for like clothes and CDs. They told her they were looking for weapons because Bob had registered firearms under his name, even though he had sold them off or pawned them or whatever at some point.
So they came in full force assuming that there's weapons in the house. Tiffany told me that they arrested her dad for some sort of fraud. She wasn't really clear on all that, especially due to the circumstances and her mindset at the time. It's not like Tiffany woke up before school expected to be held at gunpoint on her knees in her own bedroom.
I just remember feeling so helpless and also dumbfounded. Like, what the fuck? What did her dad do to have the cops come in so full force and hold a teenager at gunpoint in their room? I don't remember much else about the conversation after that. I had to go to school and you had to go to school. Yeah, I think...
Maybe one of the hallmarks of people who've had to deal with a lot of trauma or stress is that you already know how to pack up your shit and move on to the next thing because you've had to do it so many times. And we just kind of picked up our shit to do what we had to do, go to school. I also remember feeling like, fuck, I worked for him for, I don't know, six months.
Am I going to be arrested? Am I going to be charged with these same things that he did, even though I literally had no idea what was going on? I just remember being very scared at that time.
I got myself together. I went into class. I sat there and usually I was very bubbly and outgoing in class and interacting with my teacher and people in the class. My teacher could sense that I wasn't myself, probably because I was just being so quiet. And she pulled me outside and she said, are you okay? And I said, I think the FBI just raided my house and I was held at gunpoint.
pretty sure my dad is going to prison and maybe my mom and I have no idea what's going on. I started crying and she was like, looks at me just bewildered. She was like, I am so sorry. That's all she said and that's all I needed to hear in that moment. There was nothing else that she could say and there was nothing else that I could even comprehend.
She gave me a hug probably or encouraged me and we went back to class. I had such great teachers there at Sierra College. This other teacher I had the next day, she pulled me outside again. She was like, "Hey, Mrs. So-and-so told me about what happened yesterday and I just want you to know that I'm really sorry and I'm here for you if you need to talk."
That extension of kindness was so significant in that moment to feel seen and have space held for you. Those moments where my teachers held space for me that way, both them or the teachers who had come before them or coaches, that's how I started to learn and see and appreciate how valuable just holding compassionate and empathetic space was.
for traumatized people can add so much value, empathy, and kindness to people's lives. I'm very thankful. They could have just kept going in their day and not given two fucks, but they made sure that I was okay and they cared about me. Liz was not detained for anything, right? She was not detained. I think that they knew that they needed her to fully build the case against Bob. I'm sure they interviewed Liz.
this is her kid whose identity has been stolen and all of this shit. But like Bob gaslit the fuck out of me and made me think that he was innocent. I don't even remember like the explanation that he came up with. In 2003, he even justified it to the legal professionals in front of him that already knew he had been convicted. He was already sentenced. He had already served whatever sentence it was. And here we are with new charges and he literally was like, eh, they just misunderstood what I was doing with my finances. Even though
There was blatant information. So he will spin it anyway. And if you don't have that information as you and all you're getting is whatever he's delivering you, of course, it's going to be spun in whatever direction he wants to spin it.
Yeah, thank you for saying that. Also, Liz was a liar. So when Liz would say something, you're trying to figure out what's the truth between two liars. Bob was kind to me. There was definitely moments where he was completely abusive and unhinged towards me and would freak out and I would see his temper and it was like, oh, fuck. Because of how manipulative he was and his personality to come off like fake charming. Our
In our day-to-day life, he was the nicer parent to me. She was horrible to me. They're clearly both looking out for their own self-interest at this point. They're both afraid they're going to go to prison. They both don't give two fucks, it seems like, about Tony at all and how this is affecting him. What I was told and what I was led to believe, Bob told me, again, it was like his crimes are financial crimes against the government is basically how he spun it to me.
Because he knows me well enough to know that I care too much about people. That if he would have told me that it involves elderly people who are disabled, that I would have never fucking been able to understand that. So he didn't tell me any of that. He basically just made it like he was in trouble for creating the debt in Tony's name, stealing his identity, and owing people money. Like most really effective liars, they take a little bit of truth and they spin it in a lot of lie.
But that little bit of truth gaslights you just enough to make you think like, oh, okay, that makes sense or manipulates you enough to where you're like, okay. Also, like, I just didn't know how this stuff worked. I didn't, you know, I was a kid. I'm still like a very young adult. I couldn't even buy alcohol yet. They also were the type of people always to be anti-establishment, anti-any group.
because they're so antisocial by nature. There had been a lot of groundwork laid. Well, he indoctrinated you also in the way of saying like family or nothing, blood before all. You've established this over the years. He literally was planting this in your head over the years because I guess he knew some point the law would catch up with him and he'd need to have that kind of discrediting to fall back on, I bet.
Yeah, I think also you can't underestimate how his own arrogance is his own undoing, which is very common with this personality type, meaning because of their inflated sense of self-worth and their grandiose ideas about themselves and their impact on others. He thinks he's smarter than everyone and this happens a lot. They think they're smarter than someone and it ends up being their undoing in the way that they get caught.
After the raid, Bob went on the run. That's next time on Something Was Wrong. As a delay tactic, one time even faked a heart attack to try and avoid sentencing. I don't know what we expected to find, but it was very strange. His business is literally down the street. And get this, it gets better. I Googled him and then I go to images. He and I go to the same Starbucks and chat quite often.
You're fucking kidding me, Amy. No. What is happening? Sheriff Hudson executed a search warrant at the store. Bob's desk drawers had been emptied. The judgment had to have come down, though, unless they hid it from me, which is totally possible now in hindsight. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time, stay safe, friends.
Something Was Wrong is a Broken Cycle Media production created and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese. If you'd like to support the show further, you can share episodes with your loved ones, leave a positive review, or follow Something Was Wrong on Instagram at somethingwaswrongpodcast. Our theme song was composed by Glad Rags. Check out their album, Wonder Under. Thank you so much.
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I'm Dan Taberski. In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York. I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad. I'm like, stop f***ing around. She's like, I can't. A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast. It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls. With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low. Everybody thought I was holding something back. Well, you were holding something back intentionally. Yeah, yeah, well, yeah.
No, it's hysteria. It's all in your head. It's not physical. Oh my gosh, you're exaggerating. Is this the largest mass hysteria since The Witches of Salem? Or is it something else entirely? Something's wrong here. Something's not right. Leroy was the new dateline and everyone was trying to solve the murder. A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios. Hysterical.
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