Amad hat-trick spares United blushes against Southampton
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The Athletic FC Podcast Network. 1-2, 1-2, this is Karl Anka recording locally. Good morning, everyone. How are we doing?

It's a mad world, we're just living in it.

But before we get into all that business...

I've got to do some introductions. I've got the newshound himself, Laurie Whitwell, fresh from Old Trafford, and the man of 100 passport stamps, Mr. Andy Mitton. Hello, gentlemen. How are we doing? This is fun, isn't it? This is like a little Easter egg for people that used to listen to us back in the day.

when this all started, right? This is the trio that kicked it all off before Ian came in and messed up the equilibrium. I'm obviously joking. Brought greater midfield balance, I would say. Exactly. But this is lovely. Can I just also point out to listeners, you won't be able to see this, but Andy is deciding to celebrate last night's monumental victory by rocking a United jacket and

with the collar up that makes him look like some kind of amped up Eric Cantona. Are you feeling yourself, Andy? Yeah, I like it. I've never wore like a club merchandise for decades and decades because it just wasn't considered to be cool. I remember making an exception for the European Cup final in Camp Nou.

sort of wearing a Manchester United shirt and also Rotterdam in 91, War One then. I don't know. It's more practicalities because I'm cold. So I'm wearing it on top of a jumper. But yeah, it's... That collar is pretty big. You do look like Count Dracula in it. Cheers, Laurie. Thanks for that. It's an Adidas tracksuit top with Manchester United on it. So yeah, my way we go. Bad is not bad. Right. Listeners already said Talk With Devils are going back on the road. So let's do a bit of admin. We know...

A number of you were disappointed that there was no London date in our recent run of live shows. Be disappointed no more, because we will be live at Leicester Square Theatre on the evening of Monday, the 17th of March, 2025. So that's St Patrick's Day. Tickets are live now, and there's a link in the show notes for this episode. So, of course, get the details for our usual social media channels. By the time you are listening to this episode, I'm pretty sure every single member of Talk of Devils will be posting about it on their social media. So, we're off to London. That's it.

That's fun, isn't it? I can't wait. It felt like a bit of an aberration that we didn't do it again because it had been such a great atmosphere last summer in London. Carl, you were MVP that night, I remember. You really turned on your A game for that one. Too kind, too kind. Nothing like a good home turf to get you. Get the juices flowing.

Now, speaking of home turf, that's my attempt at an Ian Irvine segue. Let's talk about the game at Old Trafford. Manchester United 3, Southampton 1. Do you want to skip to the end and talk about Ahmad being the best football player in the world? Or do you want to talk about that weird 65 minutes before everything kicked off, Laurie? You were in the press box. I was, I was. And I'm intrigued to hear how your experience matched this because you were in the Stretford end where everything went down, right? So I'll let you...

Give your reflections after me. But yeah, I mean, really, I don't know, awkward, bewildering game for the majority where Southampton ran through United, created lots of chances, were well worth their 1-0 advantage into that point. I know that United had chances themselves and it was kind of an end-to-end game for the large club.

but it felt, you know, Amrin asked for a repeat kind of performance that he'd had from Arsenal and Liverpool and he was going to find out a lot more about his play as well. He certainly found out some troubling details, I think, in this one. Kobi Meynu going off at half-time, Manuel Agate going off seven minutes into the second half alongside Rasmus Hoyland who looked pretty deflated as he walked around the perimeter of the pitch. Joshua Xerxe came on and, to be fair, changed the game, was able to kind of link play a lot better and obviously,

Ahmad then decides to do his thing. Yeah, I mean, Carl, you should definitely do victory laps on this one from years ago. And I think, I mean, it did sort of tell me, he started the game at right wing back, right? Because Diogo Dolo was suspended. And,

I felt that this is a game that just had to emphasise that he really should be in that number 10 role because he does so much damage when he's driving into the box. He just kept running and eventually he got that look, didn't he, with the sort of ricochet off Kyle Walker-Peters, deservedly so. But what a moment for him because he soaked up the adulation, a hat trick, all kinds of stats, right? I'm sure you're going to reel off, but the fact that he's creating these big moments for

time after time now it's this sort of like three or four big occasions that he's stood up to yeah what a guy to cherish It's the first hat-trick from a Manchester United player since Cristiano Ronaldo against Norwich

Ahmad is now the second youngest Patrick goalscorer for Manchester United since Wayne Rooney, behind Wayne Rooney. And he's looking like, if he's not a cult hero, he's well on his way. Rapturous applause at full time. But I do want to wind the clock back to a bit earlier in the game. Andy, what did you make of that first half performance in particular? Worrying. Really, really worrying against a team who've picked up two points away all season. They've not had a win yet.

That is the worst away form of any team in the top four divisions in England. And they were the better team. And they were cutting through Manchester United like we've seen so many times, especially at Old Trafford. And I know we'll finish on a high and results do set the mood. So we will be more relaxed today because the team have won and Ahmad's got that fantastic hat trick and a win just is a bomb. But Southampton were the better team for most of that game.

And it was pretty alarming for me to watch how Manchester United's defenders struggled. We can talk about them as a collective. We can talk about them individually as well. The midfielders struggled as well. The forwards struggled. I think if we're looking for positives apart from Ahmad, Xerxe was the best player when he came on. He's had a good three games, hasn't he? When you consider where he was previously,

at the last home game at half time I tweeted United have not scored in 250 odd minutes at Old Trafford

Is it anxiety? Is it because we're not very good? I feel less confident today than I do before the Southampton game, despite Manchester United winning. Delight for Ahmad has probably been the brightest point so far this season, but I'm worried what I see at Old Trafford. And that was the first of five games at Old Trafford in three and a half weeks. And the players who were bigging up, people like Manu Ugarte, Kobi Mainu,

Just to see their performances drop off so much, as well as the defenders. Lenny Oro, I mean, he'll never forget that game, will he? But for the wrong reasons. And I don't like to put the microscope on individuals and hammer them because footballers do have bad games, especially young footballers. It's part of the learning process. Fans have got very selective memories about how X or Y was great all the time. They weren't. I can remember Cristiano Ronaldo being absolutely terrible for Manchester United.

But I'm pretty worried about what I saw last night. Absolutely. This was a really weird game to watch standing in the Stretford end. First off, in my opinion, United were really flat-footed.

After the comments from Amaran and Bruno Fernandes talking about how they need to make sure they maintain their focus and intensity, it really felt as if things had dropped off. Maybe that's because they played extra time in penalty shootouts against Arsenal. Maybe it's because they invested so much emotion in those bigger games. But I did think, particularly at halftime, the team would have benefited from having some more left-footers in there.

And also, the midfield wasn't quite in sync with what Rasmus Hoyland was doing. Hoyland really had a tough time. And I think, yeah, as you said, things did change a little bit. Well, not even a little bit. Dramatically, when Joshua Xerxe came on, we've got a lot of questions about Xerxe. One from someone called Andy.

and one from someone called Harish so I'll just get one out to you Laurie not sure if I can take any more of this die for 80 minutes and then our very own get out of jail card saves the day Xerxes deserves a lot of credit he needs a run in the team and Rasmus needs a break he gets no service whatsoever uh

This is really interesting to and from in who plays number nine for Manchester United right now. Do you think the momentum swung the other way to the Dutchman now? I mean, it has to have right after that game. And yeah, I would take issue with the idea that he gets no service because yes, that's definitely a factor. An hour in after the game was asked about Hoyland. You know, he's thinking he's scored two goals in 15 Premier League games so far this season.

And although he is better in Europe, he's got a pretty good ratio in Europe, as we know, for two seasons now. But there was a couple of moments in the game when it looked like Amarin and Bruno Fernandes were kind of trying to instruct him. There was an early part where Jorah had the ball right back and was looking for that cross-field pass and Hoyland was kind of too far over on the left and Amarin was calling over to him to say, you know, you should have come straighter so that Jorah could find you. And he was...

Hoyland was kind of replying that he was kind of trying to look for the channel over the far left. So there's obviously not quite in sync there. And Bruno at a different point was sort of telling him to drop deeper and link up with play. And there was a moment in that half actually where the crowd got annoyed because there was a ball from Onan that was good actually from goalkeeper through the middle to Hoyland who had the advantage on Bednarek, but he kind of just waited for it. And Bednarek sort of nipped in and the crowd were groaning and you could see

that I think maybe weighed on Hoyland as he kind of came off in the second half. Now, that being said, he was actually really good for the big chance the first half that Garnaccio should have at least got on target, should have scored really, when he's done that give and go with Fernandes and he's absolutely tore past Bednarek. And that's what he's great at, right? Running into space, down the channels, and he can finish. It's just that it feels like that connection with the team in terms

other ways isn't there. And it does leave, you know, Amrin with the decision to make because Xerxe came on and then was able to, you know, find those pockets and link play. And maybe that's because Southampton are tired a bit, you know, that has to be considered. But yeah, I mean, it's a conundrum. United scoring goals,

has been an issue for three seasons. Amarim reflected on that after the game. I think we've touched on it before, where 57, 58, 57 goals in the Premier League is nowhere near good enough for a team that should be regulars in the Champions League, at least if they're ultimately trying to challenge for the title, as Omar Barada has said, by the year 2028. I would slightly say...

weirdly being in the stadium, I don't know how this felt for you, Carl, sort of in the, amongst the fans and, you know, it looked great from our perspective, the limbs going everywhere and, and what have you, but, you know, okay, maybe a 5-0 over Salampton would have been much more preferred, but,

a late comeback win when it feels like the game's edgy when it feels like there's desperation around the place and there's not really much hope to then come back and actually win it sort of 3-1 with a rousing individual performance from Ahmad and kind of a collective spirit from the players because they were trying right to the end and obviously the substitutions had an impact Christian Eriksen as well for his ball there is a certain invigoration about that kind of victory over perhaps a more routine expected victory against the bottom side in the Premier League

Gets you G'd up a bit. I will say, one thing that was noticeable throughout the game was the striker then really wanted to get behind Xerxe. So when he was doing his warm-up, every time he came that close to the corner flag, oh Joshua, Xerxe chance. When he came on the field as well, a lot of goal on Josh. So there's been a very strong response after what happened in the Newcastle game of recognising that if Joshua is to get better, perhaps maybe United fans need to not...

uh be less harsh on him so to speak and I will say one thing that was quite nice is when Joshua came on he was he just looks a lot sharper than he was at the start of the season he's releasing the ball a lot quicker things that may have taken four or five touches are now taking two or three which is nice Andy Ten Hag used to use the term internal competition when comparing Varane and Maguire

Do you think it's internal competition between Xerxe and Hoyland? There might be two of them thrown in the starting lineup now. Or do you think eventually one of them might finally settle down?

I think they're totally different types of players. There needs to be more internal competition. And if there was, Hoyland wouldn't be playing every week because he'd be rested, he'd be taken out. Xerxe, I love the way that he links the play. He came on and made a difference straight away. He's got a really nice turn on him and some of his balls are effective. And as I said a couple of minutes ago, he's had a good three games after that Newcastle point. He did well at Anfield, Arsenal as well.

the team is drastically short of goals Marcus Rashford not figuring impacts on the teams that are being chosen because you've got one of your best players there someone who's been top scorer where else do you go for goals I know there's a couple of kids who are young and they're exciting but

But we're not moving on from this point. Look at the goals scored. Look at the goals scored last season and the season before. This is becoming the norm now. Is it going to change because Manchester United have changed the way that they play? And in theory, the end result should be exciting and it should be attacking. Laurie's right to say it's not just about service. There has been times where Hoyland has not had service. But there's a lot of wastefulness as well. Garnaccio had a very good chance.

I think the best thing Hoyland did showed how fast he is when he ran onto a ball in the first half. But this team missed chances. And maybe that comes with experience. And I always just go back to Ten Hag wanted Harry Kane. Wouldn't you all?

And I'm sure he would have made a massive, massive difference to Manchester United. I spoke to an analyst at another club the other day who works with a national team. And he told me there's not many strikers around. There just isn't. And I spoke to someone who works at a Premier League rival about strikers. Said exactly the same thing. Totally different.

unconnected conversations, who do you go for? There's actually very, very few people about. Where were you in the Stratford end, Carl? Upper or lower? Upper. Big baseball cap in disguise. Did you actually? But you told us that some people recognise you there, you said. Some people recognise. It wasn't a great disguise. I've had a few reports, Carl, of stewards telling people to sit down on the upper tier. No, I'm not joking, Laurie. Did you see anything? I know I'm normally doing a wind-up and...

My own side, like the boy who cried wolfy. I know someone a couple of rows above got told to sit down, but I managed to get through the majority of the night without anyone. But not just you. Did you see anything else? Because I've had quite a few reports. No, no, no. Just two or three. Could you sit down nicely? To you? No.

What about getting in? Because I'm also getting pretty consistent reports of queues to get into Old Trafford. And I know that there's a multitude of reasons why this is happening. And some are because of changes in configuration. The security is full on. I often get into the ground quite late myself. I see how busy it gets in the Munich tunnel. But I had more reports last night. And another reason is fans arrive too late and always have them.

I spoke to a mate of mine over Christmas. He simply refuses to leave the bar.

until 10 minutes before kickoff. But there is serious congestion around Old Trafford before kickoff now. You are correct. So I think I arrived at Old Trafford maybe 20 minutes before kickoff, which is... Oof! I know. That must be so alien for someone who usually arrives like two or three hours before. I know, I know. And I was at W15 entrance, and it was a very sizable queue. I think when I left the pub... Ah, that's why. I did it sort of. I like it.

Left the pub, had a five-minute walk and went, hang on, I'm going back to the loo because I don't know how long this queue is going to be. Looped back. And when I finally saw how long the queue would be, and you're absolutely right in terms of the security, the security is a lot more full on now than it has been in the past, which I suppose is a good thing. The security guard was very confused as to why I tried to bring in a disposable camera to Old Trafford. But hey, look, I want to take photographs of a football game. Why not? So yeah, big queues. Took a little bit to settle.

A couple of drips and drabs before maybe five minutes in. But once everyone got settled, the atmosphere was, I'm not going to say lovely in that first half because it's hard to get behind your team.

When so many loose balls are pinging around the place. But I'd say once Ahmad got his goal, you could really, really, really feel things change. Which pub did you go in? So I started off in the Old Nags Head. I had a drink in the Bishop's Blaze as well. What was the Bishop's Blaze like? The Bishop's Blaze is like the Bishop's Blaze how it normally is, right? So very busy. Packed. Packed. Sticky floors. Good atmosphere. And you can get a decent Newcastle brown ale in there if you want. And what was it like when Ahmad did score with

with the first, the second, what were the different emotions and sensations in the Stretford end? So the first is, oh, thank God we've got a man. This is good. This is really, really good. And like you say, that goal involved a little bit of a stroke of fortune because he beats his wing, he has a shot and it sort of ricochets back to him and he has another bite of a cherry. The second goal is when everything takes off and the two gentlemen I've spent most of the game talking to back and forth

they reached behind me and gave me a big bear hug from behind me like this is incredible this is amazing and then of course when a man gets his third goal i mean i would be very happy with a two-one victory but a three-one victory sees everyone just start laughing loudly and calling him the best football player in the world

So it's a new year and you're thinking, how am I going to make this year different? How am I going to build something for myself? I'm dying to be my own boss or see if I can turn this business idea that I've been kicking around into a reality, but I don't know how to make it happen. Shopify is how you're going to make it happen. And let me tell you how. The best time to start your new business right now. Shopify makes it simple to create your brand open for business and get your first sale. Get your store up and running easily,

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Should we just talk about this Ahmad Hattrick and why he just keeps doing this again and again and again, Laurie? Do you have any insight as to how or why? I mean, what I was really pleased at actually was that third goal. Well, you know, the goals came in different ways, although they all came from the same area. And I was really pleased that last one because you just know that Southampton are going to give you a chance that way. And I was befuddled as to how, I think that's one of your words,

that United hadn't taken advantage of that prior to that moment. Brentford scored two in a 90-odd minute against St Mary's in a similar kind of way where they're trying to pass it out from the back and they're seizing on it. And it's just how he starts his run slowly and then speeds up at the end. It's not like he goes full pelt from...

to the press from the beginning and obviously he was in that number 10 role there in that moment I'm trying to figure out when he might have switched with Anthony or whether they just kind of were you know when Anthony came up because Anthony came on in the number 10 I assumed he would go wing back and Anthony would push on but actually he kept it where it was

And then obviously the lovely interchange with Eriksen. So he's got good understanding. He's got positivity. A lot of his game is about positivity. Even in the first half when United were struggling, he was getting it and just running at Kyle Walker-Peters. And, you know, he could tell that he was going to make something happen. And like I say, that's what he did for the first goal. He got the bounce, the ball, which I think he deserved in that moment. And...

Yeah, just, he's just really, really impressive. When he first came to the club, it was, there was confusion exactly where he was going to fit. It was like, why has he been signed? Especially that the transfer fee, you know, even with the initial fee alone was bigger than people expected for a guy that, you know, for a kid, you know, that played three games.

So I think he's always, for me, been judged through that prison where I've sort of been a little bit curious about it. And you could see early on that he... I think I did a piece on the Athletic that I'd love to go back now and just see what I actually wrote in this piece from three games. But it was... You could see that he had incredible touch and he did have aggression in his game then. He was small, but he wasn't getting bullied off the ball. And I'm kind of really intrigued to know exactly what was going on in training because you had a series of managers that...

tried him but it didn't seem like they really fully believed that he could do it and maybe at that point he couldn't do it and he needed these loans at Rangers where it didn't work out for him at Sunderland where he then did grow it felt like into a player that fans could depend on and you get that almost

kind of feeding off each other sort of moment and he clearly is feeding off the crowd, you know, he's kissing the badge, he's showing the enthusiasm that you want to see from a United player scoring in that kind of fashion. Every time you put a microphone in front of his mouth, he's saying he wants to stay at United for a long, long time. He's obviously just signed his new contract that he seems very happy about. You sort of wondered, you know, does he,

Does he have any pay rises built in within that? Because you sort of wonder if he keeps going at this rate now, he's kind of taking off here. I don't know, I'm trying to probably not get too ahead of myself, but you feel like maybe that would be something that gets looked at. But yeah, you look at

you know, stoppage sign winner against Liverpool in an epic FA Cup tie and then get sent off for holding his shirt up, which is, you know, iconic. Then, last gasp winner at the Etihad having, you know, forced the equaliser. Equaliser at Anfield late on and now a hat-trick to rescue a game that looked desperate. I mean, it would have been four Premier League defeats in a row at home, as Andy says, not scoring a goal, right? Although I swear they'd got two against Forest, didn't they? But, you know, that,

It was looking like a desperate situation with Sir Jim Ratcliffe in the crowd. I was kind of surprised to see him for that one, although he's now did sort of track back and the last three times he's been to watch United, they've won. So City and Leicester. And he was sort of clapping and shaking his head as Ahmad's second goal went in and he was sort of celebrating by the corner flag. And the queue of teammates to celebrate with Ahmad,

shows the kind of esteem he's held. And I think it looked really warm and genuine. You've got Xerxe lifting him up above his head, just in a kind of just total moment of joy and wanting to raise up his teammates to show how much he's thankful, gratitude for him. So yeah, you're getting to a point where you're kind of getting very, very excited about him. Absolutely. Charlotte Harper was also at Old Trafford with you, Laurie.

Her match piece is, Ahmad continues to set the standard for Ruben Amaran's Manchester United. Andy, I know you've said previously on this podcast that you've spoken to people who said he's a player who might not win you the Premier League, but can certainly offer you something. Do you think we're seeing a development? Yeah, I think this team is absolutely miles off winning the Premier League, but it's exciting and he's a young forward player and he gets you off your seat even when he doesn't score and he's improving. But, you know, to

you need to be doing this for a Manchester United team in the final rounds of the Champions League and

he's exciting Sunderland fans absolutely loved him there I think it's really nice how they watch out for him he had a real rough loan spell at Rangers but you know when Manchester United first scouted him properly it was in Manchester against Manchester City in 2019 in UEFA Youth League and a mad terrorised City and you know who played for City that day

Taylor Harwood-Bellis. Well, well, well. That's a good start. And Cole Palmer. Atalanta won 3-1. And Ahmad, he assisted one and he scored the third. And it was Jim Lawler, who was United's head scout. He was like, we've got to sign him.

But United felt it might be difficult in the post-Brexit world. And credit to John Murtagh, who's had a lot of stick. He really pushed through. Matt Judge did the negotiations on Ahmad, but it was Murtagh who went to Bergamo to talk to their CEO. Now, this was at a time during COVID. So when he came back to Manchester, he basically had to sit in a rabbit hutch for about three weeks there.

And then... It's his garage, wasn't it? And then two weeks isolation. And then fast forward to when it's all done and it cost a lot of money. People going, why have you even signed him? But United had four scouts working on him. I remember doing a big piece for the Athletic. If you want detail, read the piece I did a year ago. I spoke to loads of people in Italy and we should name him. Kevin Hughes, Marco De Sisti,

and Christian Ercolani, they were all in Italy. When Ahmad got his papers, finally, he sent Murtagh a picture of him stood outside the British embassy in Rome saying, I can now come and play for Manchester United. So there's a happy ending to this. I'm told he's a good lad. I'm just cautious having seen so many young players who've come through. Too much too young, whatever, whatever. The circumstances are often completely different regarding the different players, but...

A bright spot on a bad night, a bright spot in a bad season. Indeed. This is the result that took Manchester United up to 12th in the table. They've now had 11 points out of a possible 27 in the league under Amarin. I'm not quite singing the Europa League theme song yet or thinking the Premier League is going to be won in 2028 yet. We have had a really interesting question from Michael T. Remember, listeners, you can send in your questions via email to devilspod at theathletic.com. So Michael T. asks...

Having gone through this cycle multiple times in the last 10 years, I feel like I've seen this before. New manager comes in, it's counterattacking football against the big teams, get some amazing results, but then struggle against the smaller teams before trying to play possession-based football, before struggling to make the jump. Are there any reasons to believe things will change this time?

Laurie, you're pulling a face. He's right, yeah. We have seen this film before and that was the moment when Ole Gunnar Solskjaer's reign perhaps unravelled. You know, obviously you can question the signing of Cristiano Ronaldo within that, but they had a

an attempt to become more of a possession based team and go on the front foot with things when he'd obviously had really good success as a counter-attacking team it's difficult isn't it to be able to control possession in the Premier League you've got so many different teams now that have good quality within them have you know a punch about them where they want to come and challenge you know they're not just going to sit back and yeah it

I think you can perhaps hope for a change. You have to always hope, right? What's the point of watching football if you think it's just going to end one way? And even last night, you don't know what way it's going to end and it finishes in such a dramatic flourish that it sort of just sparks that enjoyment within you again. But I feel like with Ruben Ameren, he has done that at Sporting. So you've got that kind of...

And I know it's maybe a bit easier in the Portuguese league where you've got sort of three big teams and then it's less of a challenge perhaps at different places than it is in the Premier League. But I do feel like he did show that against France

some of Europe's best teams as well in the Europa League, in the Champions League. And so he's kind of got that blueprint, I suppose. So you kind of think, and he's speaking eloquently about that. He's not blind to it. He's very much embracing that head on. And just quickly to Andy's point, again, he reminded us about Ahmad being a young player and not getting too excited as well. So he's trying to keep it on an even keel in him individually, but also the players

the team as a whole as well. But he does need results like that last night. He needs sort of little...

shoots of encouragement that the players can have buy-in for so that then you buy yourself that time to get to summer because this is a squad that was built with a different kind of management in mind, different system and I know that he doesn't want to focus too much at times. He does oscillate a little bit between how much the squad isn't equipped for what he wants and then also saying that the tactics aren't the most essential part of what he's trying to do. But I do feel that

if he's able to sort of make those trades that he would like and the club feel are the correct ones and again i'm not saying that they definitely are the right people to be making those calls this is a challenge for everybody but they i think there's that there can be optimism about this being different if if they are if they are fully bought in and it was interesting that he said he had five minutes with sir jim ratcliffe after the end of the game um

I wanted to ask a follow-up question, but it got taken away to somebody else in the press conference. You've got to share these questions out. But I did want to sort of ask, and maybe he wouldn't have told me, but what kind of stuff were you talking about? What was Ratcliffe's view of things?

is he able to actually give a bit more money so you've got some flexibility in what you can do in the transfer market because I think real change will only come when they're able to properly revamp the squad in the way that he would like Andy you've interviewed Sir Jim I think your interview was 35 minutes?

How much of a conversation can you have with them in five? Yeah, 36 minutes. I was told to get half an hour, so I stretched it for six, as long as I could. Classic journalism there. Well, we know you can stretch these bits, because obviously you're finally, finally on the Rio 2000 story. So I'm sure you were well equipped in that scenario. I'm just thinking every minute is of interest, isn't it? And you want to follow up with a second and third question, but you can't. You've got this imaginary sand timer going,

clicking away in front of you but you try to engage him and you're thinking every word that you say is a wasted word you just want him on the record don't you but equally that my interview technique involves trying to get people interested trying to get people um talking with Ratcliffe I mean the pressure's on him as well because change has been promised for the better not for the worse

And it's not unreasonable for Manchester United fans to think that you're beating Southampton at home. It'll take all the wins. It'll take all the smart bits. But it should also be accurately reported. How much do you think Ahmad cost? Because I see this 38 million figure everywhere. He didn't. He cost £20 million.

plus loads of add-ons. And if he gets the add-ons, great, because it shows that he's making progress. It's a good question to ask her, how much of those add-ons have been realised? What were they based on? Yeah, I don't know. I suppose a journalist should do that job, right? Yeah.

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Right then, it's Friday January 17th, so we are approaching the silly part of the January transfer window. Laurie, loads of conversation about Alejandro Garnaccio and Naples. It feels like a live one. You know, obviously we did the story about United not being...

100% against selling an academy product if the bid was high enough and obviously Garnaccio falls into that bracket. And then myself and David Ornstein sort of did a story on full-time. It was kind of in the works as the game was going on and we were kind of figuring out when to maybe put it out about Napoli's approach to United over Garnaccio. And there's been other reports on this and we're not sort of saying we're the first to hear at all, but it felt significant that there is now conversation sort of club to club

we're told that United aren't entertaining any bids and perhaps haven't even set a valuation but I think clearly that there must be a number in mind that might get the conversation to continue and it was interesting perhaps then watching Garnaccio in that context because if a sale is on the cards does a head coach really pick a player playing for the full game he stayed on and

how he played was very committed you know he should have had an assist shouldn't he for that shot that Anthony I'm not even sure what he was doing you know just tap it in yeah that wasn't great why are you sliding and that came from Xerxes you know hold up play in the middle and ball out to the wing so but yeah Garnaccio he hasn't felt like a natural fit in this system and he's obviously got to learn and sort of figure it out but I thought I don't

I thought there was more encouragement in the system at least. I know he didn't do everything right. He missed that chance and there was maybe moments where he was perhaps running in straight lines too much. But I do feel that that was at least an example of, OK, you can work in this system. So it'll be really interesting to see. I think most people around it would be surprised if he left in this window. That being said, Napoli obviously want

a replacement for the Georgian winger whose name I always butcher, so I'm going to just call it there. No, I'm not going to try it yet. You can nail it then, Carl. I was almost there. I was almost there. Kavaroskelia. Oh, I've done it. I've paused. I've paused. Never pause when you're trying to pronounce the name. Oh, it's like a phone number because you've got to know the exact rhythm of your phone number, so you've got to know the rhythm of his name. Go on. Yeah, Kavaroskelia. There it is. There we go. Nailed it.

And I've been to George, I've been to Tbilisi, it's a wonderful city. So I feel bad for not being able to pronounce it. But yeah, he's off to PSG, isn't he? So they want a replacement. Garnaccio seems to be the one that they're targeting. And yeah, let's see how that goes. And then obviously, I don't know if we want to touch on the Marcus Rashford situation straight away, but out the squad again, there doesn't seem to be any resolution to that one. It feels like it's going to be an exit on loan is the kind of outcome that

because clubs are interested, right? We've reported about AC Milan and Dortmund. I do believe Barcelona have had talks. We haven't actually reported that. I don't think outright on the Athletic, but that's something that a few of us have heard in the background. So where he actually ends up, let's see. That's going to come down to financials, right? As we've touched on already, the wages are so big that clubs will try and get...

get him for less. And so that's why I think both United and the potential buyers, they're not really buyers, are they? Loanies? Suitors. Suitors will wait until the final part of the window because it's a negotiation round. It's kind of who blinks first. Andy, you're nodding your head here. Yeah, I think Marcus Rashford would love to play for Barcelona, but money, money, money. It's all about money and his wages and getting a compromise on

Marcus Rashford, one of his best games was actually against Barcelona a couple of years ago in Camp Nou. I'm glad you mentioned Anthony's miss, Laurie, because we couldn't not mention that. I think we should also mention Suleymane. I thought he was excellent for Southampton. And Dibling as well. How old is he? About seven, something like that. He's really young.

Dibbing's a very interesting player in that obviously he went to Chelsea yeah he did from Southampton's academy and then he went back at both clubs citing homesickness so fascinating player he does remind me a little bit of Jack Grealish when he was at Aston Villa the socks this is how can you be homesick going from London to Southampton it's about an hour on the train 90 minutes would you not be homesick if you had to live in Liverpool Andy you know when you were growing up in Manchester yeah yeah it's a good point it's a good point yeah definitely would have been

him going back to Southampton is a very very good case of two clubs wanting what's best for a football player and now look at him this is not me saying Manchester United should try and put in a bid for him right now I know very often when I say I like a football player the listeners think would he fit in at United I

I don't know if we mentioned this on the podcast, but Eric Ten Hag was having a conversation with Simon Peach, who is obviously a Southampton fan, works for PA, about Tyler Dibbling. Sounded interested when he was still manager of Manchester United, so I don't know. But I think you're right, Andy. Suleiman had a brilliant game and I felt bad for him because I think his three previous starts for Man Utd had all ended in defeat. And so this one was obviously headed that way. And I guess he was off the pitch when the actual victory was confirmed at least.

he did him like four times anywhere he turned and just was running at him and De Ligt had to kind of come across and sort of salvage situations and Onana pulled off a really good save as well in the first half I

I prefer to say that it was bad that he was left one-on-one against him. And I think that is a definite fair point. The only thing I say also is that he does want his defenders to be able to defend one-on-one. So I suppose his point maybe is that if you're sensing a situation is going one way in a one-on-one battle, go and help your teammate out. He's only 19. He's had two really promising moments with that tackle on Nunes, that penalty at the Emirates. So obviously this is not...

He looks a cool character. He seems like he's going to be really good for United, but that was a testing occasion for him. Saw Eric Ten Hag linked with Borussia Dortmund the other day and that was the first time where I thought, oh, I reckon he'd have that. That's the sort of job where they're struggling, his friends with the sports director. Him and Marcus Rashford back together? Yeah, I mean, I'd not thought of it that way, but yeah, Dortmund is a club which sells Manchester United players for a huge amount and takes them back for a much smaller amount.

I think we should do a ban on dealing with Dortmund. I remember when Shinji Kagawa signed, I'm like, this is too good to be true, this. And it was.

And then obviously Jadon Sancho. Yeah. Dortmund pushed for 110 million pounds for Sancho. United thought we had a deal getting him for 75, something like that. Oli Gunnar as well, being linked strongly. Well, I can say stronger than linked. Come on, Andy. Tell us more here, Andy. What's all this then? He's on his way to Istanbul as we speak. I got a message off him at 6.09 this morning. You don't get up at 6.09, do you, unless you're hitting the road. And he's going there. He

he's, there's been a lot of interest in, in Oli Gunnar from Turkish clubs. I'm going back like three years now, the biggest Turkish clubs and,

So I don't know why he's such a big name there, but I've spoken to him about like Turkish football culture. I know he loves Istanbul as a city. So just be ashamed if he never managed again. I think he's done that sort of three years with his family where he feels he's put serious time in having been away for so long. But I was just amusing myself this morning thinking, imagine Besiktas.

which is one of the best atmospheres in the world, by the way. If you speak to someone like Darren Fletcher, he will say the best atmosphere he ever played in was Besiktas away in an open-air stadium. So none of this nonsense about the acoustics not being quite right or the roof being angled at the wrong way. It is the most beautifully located stadium right over the Bosphorus.

And I was just thinking, imagine 30,000 big sitcom fans learning the words in Turkish to the Stone Roses, singing Ollie at the Wheel. That's just the way my silly brain works. It would have a very tough job there because they're struggling. They're six in the table. I remember going there last year to interview Eric Bailly for The Athletic. And, you know, sometimes when you go to a club and you just know that it's all going wrong,

It was one of them. It was the people just walking on eggshells everywhere. Eric Bay telling me that everything was fine. Yeah. Every single person I spoke to, we go, no, no, he's absolutely not fine. Like that dog gif where there's flames in the background. exactly. Exactly. And then a month later he left the club, you know what I mean? So they were right and he was wrong. I'm,

I'm just fascinated by the idea that Oli might meet Jose Mourinho in a big Super League clash. Great stuff. That's one you've got to fly out for, Andy, surely. I've just been looking at... You and Nick Miller. I'd love to repeat this for both of you on that.

However, I will say this was meant to be a Manchester United transfer later, so we've ended up talking about former managers and whatnot. Transfers of sorts, Carl. Is this both of you subtly telling the listeners that the chance of players coming into Manchester United is quite limited? Well, this is what my follow-up question was going to be and obviously, you know, I mean, maybe when I said anything, but yeah, absolutely.

The sense is that the money is so tight that they'd have to be creative or they'd have to have an outgoing. As Amarin said, maybe Rashford then frees up that kind of salary space for a loan to come in. Although Rondell Colomwani is going to Juventus, right, on loan. So that is one that doesn't look like it's going to happen for United.

it's a curious situation I mean the left wing back role is one that they're obviously looking at although Amarin said in his pre-match press conference that Luke Shaw would be back in a couple of weeks I don't know if that was like back training or back actually available for selection obviously we've been here before with Luke Shaw so you kind of have to you know reserve judgment a little bit but

But it's interesting, you know, Malassi is obviously fit and he's not being selected. So, yeah, I don't know the exact situation there, but it feels like he doesn't necessarily have...

100% reliability with him. He's obviously come off at 45 minutes, hasn't he, in games previous? So you're sort of thinking left wing back role is something that they'll have to address. I think if someone goes out, then someone will come in. But we're ticking down. We're on the 17th of January now. And we absolutely won't be seeing a repeat of Bruno Fernandes come in for 60, 70 million, as we saw in January 2020. I know the manager would like to bring players in, but it's all about the money. And

If Manchester United, some of the biggest earners like Casemiro or Marcus Rashford moved on, then you'd have some wiggle room to bring players in. The closer you go to the end of the transfer window, the less probabilities of getting the players in that you want to get in. So it's a difficult one. Right then, Manchester United's next fixture is against Brighton at home on Sunday, a UK kick-off time of 2pm.

The return of Danny Welbeck, Laurie? Is he going to score against us again? Well, he's back fit, isn't he? Because he was out for a bit and then he returned for their FA Cup game against Norwich. And I haven't yet checked who played Brighton in their 2-0 win over Ipswich last night. He didn't score. Speaking of someone who has Danny Welbeck in my draft FPL team, he didn't score. Oh, do you? Of course.

I like it. Faith. Well, he always plays well against United, doesn't he? Particularly at Old Trafford. So let's see. The player I am intrigued about, perhaps from a United perspective, is Toby Collier, who you wrote a piece on this week, Carl, which we maybe should touch on. Because he came from Brighton as a teenager, right? And he was sent on by Ameren again last night, ahead of Casemiro. We were touching on potentially his exit and his status in the United squad earlier.

He obviously brought that energy that was lacking from Maino and Ugarte after perhaps their exertions against Arsenal and Liverpool. So, yeah, I wonder if he's... It feels like he's ahead of Casemiro at this moment for that reason, for the energy that you have in midfield. So Brighton, we know they can bring it in that sense. So, yeah, intrigued to see exactly which line-up he goes with because it's Thursday, Sunday turnaround.

He didn't really change the team too much, did he, from Anfield to Emirates to Old Trafford? So will he now think, OK, the energy levels were dipping there and we need to rotate it a little bit? I did do a piece actually on the approach that he took since the Newcastle defeat, which was obviously very bleak, and then the two good performances and then...

we were sort of debating the headline, how positive or not should we make it? Because I'm sort of saying it's still only two draws. I mean, this was the first win in seven games, right? So if you count 90 minutes or non-penalty shootouts. But I think the point was that this week, they were in every day, but they were kind of...

doing shape and it was recovery so it's not like he's sort of drilling them and running them hard he knows that it's a case of trying to get those energy levels to the right point and he kind of said it's my fault you know for regatta and mayne perhaps not being and hoyland not being quite at it so he's shouldering the burden there he does he does you know he kind of does criticize players but he does it in a way that it doesn't feel hard so i think hopefully he's kind of you know keeping the players on board in that sense

But yeah, I'm fascinated to see which team he goes with against Brighton. Thank you for bringing up Toby Collier. Toby Collier, of course, United picked him up from Brighton's academy there. I've also had producer Oli in my earpiece telling us that Welbeck was on the bench against Ipswich. He's slowly returning to fitness. He came on in his 78th minute. One thing that is interesting, Andy, Laurie's just brought up Manchester United's odd streak of form. Brighton's win against Ipswich was their first Premier League win in eight games. The league table...

look good but it is because loads of teams are going up and down and up and down in form. Brighton draw a lot they've drawn more than any team I think they've drawn 10 of the league matches and I know they had a good win at Ipswich this week they won in the FA Cup as well away at Norwich but before that they'd drawn four on the bounce against good teams you know Arsenal Aston Villa Brighton West Ham away they've been a little bit of a bogey team for Manchester United we

We saw this season how well United played in the first half at the Amex and yet still lost the game. Brighton are seen as a successful, well-run club. Would you take a draw now? No. No, no. I wouldn't either, but yeah. It's difficult. And I think...

When you look at the recent form or recent games Brighton have had at Old Trafford, you've had not just the current manager, but also the previous two have had times where Ten Hag, I think in particular, the plan A was going well, and then Brighton had made an adjustment and United struggled a bit. So this would be an interesting case of who starts and also who finishes. I believe Amarin said he wants his players tired at the end of every game. Laurie, was that...

was what came up in a recent press conference? Dead, actually, Carl. He wants them to be flatlined and then resurrected the next day. So, yeah, obviously he has this way of using quite strong language and obviously it doesn't... Suffer a goal is my favourite one. Whenever United concede, he goes, we suffered a goal. Which I'm wondering if it's a Portuguese thing because I know Nani said use this...

Oh, we went through an old podcast and Nani said, oh yeah, we suffered a loss. I went, okay, this is...

which is a nicer way of saying the knight is still young. But I also do think that Amarin has a certain way with language. I mean, he was called the poet by Cristiano Ronaldo, wasn't he? And so I think he does choose his moments to go a bit harder in what he's trying to say and then row back and kind of be easy on the players in different ways. But yeah,

Run like mad dogs was his big one, wasn't it, from his opening press conference. And I think they were running last night. He said it wasn't a matter of effort. It was the timing of the press and the difficulty in playing against a team that, yes, they do like the ball, but they're not perhaps as dominant as Arsenal and Liverpool. It kind of feels like United should be the dominant team there. So configuring that balance for his players was the issue, he felt.

Are you confident going into Sunday? No. After witnessing that last night, I thought United were going to turn it on against Southampton. They'd been beaten badly by Brentford at home. They do give up chances. As I say, that way that Ahmad scored his third goal, I thought that would come earlier and then it would ease it up. I felt United should have had a penalty when Kyle Walker-Peters touched the ball with his hand.

if they get a penalty and that goes in then maybe it changes the dynamic of the game but I don't think you can rely on that at all so yeah you can't really go into any United game at the moment knowing what to expect I think Amarin is open in saying that it's going to be a rollercoaster for the rest of the season it's going to be a hard season still yeah I don't think you can go into any game with this current United team with an exuding confidence Andy? No I'm not

I've spoken off, so he's not going to say anything else. Nice and succinct. Right then, before we wrap everything up, we just want to highlight a piece from Charlotte Anchorich, who have been very busy writing about Carrington's development, as well as a piece on the lower league scene in Manchester. And before we close, we want to talk about a significant appointment in the Manchester lower league scene involving a certain Mr. Mitten, or shall we call him El Presidente? Go on then, boys. Absolutely. Salute you, sir.

Well, let's talk about the piece. The piece highlights how rich the football culture is in Manchester. And Critch and Charlotte went to places like Avro, like West Edsbury and Chorlon. And it's thriving, absolutely thriving. Wonderful to see whether you're at Altrincham, Stalybridge, Celtic. Kers and Ashton are probably punching above their weight more than any club in the country at the moment. And it's lovely to see.

What about Trafford? Trafford have had a decent season and they're a lovely community football club located between Old Trafford and Carrington Training Ground and they're getting like three, four hundred fans and yeah, they're a top club.

Do you think they've got the right people in place at the top of the club though Andy? What are you angling at here son? Listen all I'm saying is that I saw on your Instagram something about you becoming vice president of Trafford Football Club. They asked me before Christmas if I would accept an honorary vice president role of the football club and I was delighted to say yes. I didn't say anything about it but they made it public the other day and I started getting loads of messages going congratulations. I'm like I've not even done anything.

I've always, since the age of four, supported non-league football. I would watch my dad all around the north of England. All my brothers played semi-professional football. I think it's a really important part of community and clubs like Trafford and all over the UK and all over the world. Football clubs are so important as part of the community.

And we love what Manchester United and the bigger clubs give us, but try and support your local teams as well. Go and help out. They're often volunteer-led. But basically, my new position puts me on an equal footing with, I don't know, Florentino Perez in the football administration world. And I've got power now. Everyone's happy at the moment. They won't be when I put the ticket prices up to 66 quid. But I might ban you, Laurie, from the stadium just for a buzz, just because I can't.

Get a picture of your head outside the turnstiles, current band spectators, and you're the only one. Right, I'm sneaking in then in that case. If you're ever in Manchester, go and watch a club like this. You'll get pie, peas and chips. You'll get a fantastic welcome. If you're ever there, you know, a day before a game, you'll be welcomed at all of these football clubs all around Greater Manchester and obviously at Trafford as well.

Right. I think we'll leave it there. Londoners, don't forget, Talk of the Devils Live is at Leicester Square Theatre on March 17th. Tickets and information will be available on all of our social media pages and also in the show notes. Talk of the Devils is going to be back on Monday. Ian Irving back in hosting duties and we'll be back to discuss whatever happened at Old Trafford. Other than that, take care. Have a great weekend. Bye. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

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