Brentford loss forgotten as Bilbao beckons
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This is Talk The Devils, the athletics podcast dedicated to Manchester United. We are here once again to reflect on a defeat in the Premier League against Brentford, with actually Manchester United's youngest ever Premier League line-up. But more importantly, I guess, we are also here to preview the second leg of the Europa League semi-final against Athletic Club at Old Trafford.

on Thursday and we'll also be reflecting on the derby draw in the WSL which has secured Champions League football for Mark Skinner's side for next season. Charlotte Harper will be joining us later on in the pod for that but Andy and Laurie are here. Good morning gentlemen. Hello. Hello. You okay? Yeah. Yeah? You struggle with hello there Andy? No I said I said hello. You got there in the end that's good great start.

The listeners won't know, but I've taken three attempts to read out a sentence in the intro as well. But never mind, it's Bank Holiday Monday, it's bright and early, and we're here to talk about Manchester United again. So, Brentford, another defeat, 16 now in the Premier League. Youngest line-up, though, in Manchester United's Premier League history, Laurie. So, really, that aspect, it was very interesting to watch, wasn't it? I think so, because it's clearly...

it's not a free hit, is it? Because it feels like, you know, we're sort of still slumped in this Premier League malaise. Yeah, but it's just like Groundhog Day, isn't it? It doesn't feel like it's deepened anything necessarily. So at least then, as you say, it was a chance to see how these young kids did, right? I mean, it was only really, you know, Chido Obi, Harry Amass again, obviously he's featured a little bit and even Tyler Fredrickson on his second start for United. Veterans, the pair of them, eh? Yeah, exactly. Season pro. So, I mean...

How are they developing? How are they experiencing this sort of period? They're up against a Brentford team that are direct. They do not mess about when it comes to getting forward. Yeah, let's have it. Let's see how you are. And obviously they ended up scoring four goals. I'm not saying that was particularly to do with the younger players at all, but it just shows the level, the gap really, right? From academy football to first team football, as we've touched on before. And yeah,

It was an occasion, I suppose, that at least United showed some fight back at the end. Pretty dispiriting how they crumbled for those four goals after opening the scoring. But yeah, it feels like we're just in this holding pattern until Thursday and then until...

Fingers crossed, the final. Until next season, in many ways, yeah. Just to spell it out, 22 years, 270 days. That was the average age of Manchester United starting XI against Brentford. Like I say, it's the youngest for United in the Premier League, but it's actually the third youngest of any side ever.

in the Premier League. Chido Obi became the youngest ever Premier League starter for United, 17 years, 155 days. It was eight changes, Andy, in total from the first leg against Athletic Club. And I guess it was an understandable line-up from Ruben Amorim, really. Yeah, because it's all about Bill Bauer. It's all about the game on Thursday. He made it clear the type of changes that he was going to be making. I think most fans welcome youngsters getting a chance to

But we did see men against boys. Manchester United struggled to deal with their forwards, their runs, their penetration. And it was a mix of a Manchester United team. So you can't expect them to come up against a very competent side away from home, given how poor Manchester United have been, consistently poor in the league and somehow magic a result. However, when United went ahead, Garnaccio put a lovely ball into Mason Mount. Suddenly you're like, you're telling me there's a chance here? Yeah.

And then I thought it was pretty harsh. I know Brentford didn't break any rules, but playing on when De Ligt went down, it was just pretty harsh to watch. Definition has been round the block a bit, that goal. Yeah, I didn't like it. And I started getting a bit arsey towards Brentford in my own mind, going, you had 5,000 fans 11 years ago. You're just a load of glory hunters. Calm down, Andrew. It's not a big, big deal. It was Andy versus Andrew, was it, in your own head? Yeah, because...

I know that they're an incredibly well-run football club and they've moved to a very smart stadium. They've got an hardcore fight, thousands. Stockport County are considerably bigger than Brentford, but I'm not going to let this ruin the podcast. If you look at their goals, they came in in little bursts, a two and a two.

The young players, I actually thought Fredrickson did well. I thought Amas, it was probably one of his weaker games. Chido Obi, very difficult when you're getting a limited service. He...

Tried to snatch a shot towards the end, but had a pretty quiet game. And again, they're a very, very good team. People will not accept it, but understand it for now. The problem is if this carries on into the next season, the manager will have a major problem. Yeah, and Amarin said that, didn't he, as well, that this can't be the standard moving forward. It's an exceptional circumstance, the end of this season, because of the fact that the Europa League...

is, well, has basically so much more reward than the Premier League in the remainder of this season. There's still the prospect though, Laurie, of 17th looming, to be honest. I mean, United are now only two points away from what would be a pretty embarrassing finish if sort of 13th isn't bad enough. That looks like pretty much the best they can do. I mean, if Palace win against Nottingham Forest later...

12th place will be nine points away with three games remaining and we know about United's goal difference so it looks like 13th to 17th is United's finishing place now. That 17th place is looming large isn't it because United are just tumbling still in the Premier League I think that's a fourth defeat in six games the other two were draws so it's not like they've picked up any kind of form whatsoever in the league.

and obviously West Ham picked up a point, Tottenham picked up a point, they're the two teams directly below United. Everton are already above them, Wolves are already above them, having been that fourth team threatened with relegation for so much of this season. It's a pretty embarrassing finish, whatever happens, obviously, but I think 17th would be a rubber stamp of a truly awful Premier League campaign and a pretty huge black mark against the whole team

whole structure, the personnel. So yeah, I know that Europa League absolutely carries huge weight and it'll be interesting how that all will get onto it if it actually happens, but how that then reflects on the season. But yeah, I mean, I sort of agree with Andy that at least I suppose you get in a little bit of opportunity for players in this period. Obviously, I was very happy to see Mason Mount start a game and score a goal as

as I got a few. I was wondering how long it would take you to bring it up. I thought that'd be your first question, to be honest. I did consider it because we had so many bloody messages about it as well. I was even getting private messages on social media, DMs. How happy is Laurie? You should have seen our WhatsApp group. There was fire emojis and all sorts of stuff popping up. Love heart eyes.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was a very good goal. And I mean, the sort of irony as well, just when we're talking about the youngsters, you know, is that you've got a guy, Alejandro Garnaccio, who's still only 20. You know, he's not exactly, you know, he feels like a much more experienced player because he's played so much. Even Ahmad, who scored the final one, 22. So you've got to bring that overall level of the team down. You've still got these guys, Kobi Meynu, 19, right? So, yeah,

you know these players that feel like senior pros but are actually sort of still the same kind of age as these younger players that are coming through okay Harry Amas and Chido Obi are 17 but yeah Tyler Frederickson is 20 so yeah it's a it

even the ones that are kind of seen as established are still very young and therefore I think you have to give some latitude to their performances. But yeah, clearly Ruben Amarin wasn't even going to risk, was he? Some of his players, obviously Bruno didn't make it off the bench, Casemiro, Hoyland, clearly a big negative about Matthijs de Ligt as Andy touched on there. It was quite difficult to discern exactly what Amarin was saying after the game, whether he was saying...

you know, it's not that bad or whether he just doesn't really know at all that it could actually be season over. Yeah, I read it the second part of that. It sounded like he was concerned that it could impact next season even potentially if it was that serious. In terms of when he was mentioning Lando Martinez as well as a comparison. Yeah, exactly. With it being a knee injury. But I guess we'll get more information ahead of the Europa League second leg. There's a press conference on Wednesday. So,

I'm sure there'll be questions about De Ligt if he's not in the training session in front of the media earlier on on Wednesday. He'd just come back after six games missing as well. He'd obviously come off the bench in Bilbao.

but only lasted 35 minutes we'll come back to Garnaccio actually Laurie you mentioned him there there's some really interesting stats on him but just to underline how excited people were about your reaction to Mason Mount Gareth how long into the next pod will it be until Laurie is crowing about that Mount goal well he was crowing about the Mount start he'd call it a very good goal uh but

Yeah, he did it within 10 minutes, Gareth, so you'll be pleased with that. Simon, after Mount's goal against Brentford, I instantly thought of Lawrence Whitwell and how delighted and smug he must be feeling at the same time. On a more serious note, that build-up play to Mount's goal in the finish looked so simple and effortless.

It's a joy to watch those type of goals. And I wonder why Manchester United can't do that more often, as I'm sure does Ruben Amarin. Does Andy Mitten wonder? We've seen little pockets of play throughout the season, even when Manchester United have been losing matches. And it was a good goal.

Cobby released Garnaccio and then it was a really nice cross and Mount finishes because that's what he does. He scores goals for Manchester United at Brentford. Yeah, that's weird, isn't it? His second United goal, right? And his first one came at Brentford like a year ago. Yeah, Luke Shaw needs minutes. He started as captain. He got some minutes. You can clearly see that he needs more minutes because he's not at the level that he has been. Frederiksen did some stuff really well. I know the goal...

awkward for him and you could see a lack of strength and experience but these are people playing their first ever matches for Manchester United I was a bit nervy watching Bayon De the goalkeeper if I'm honest I know it was his second Premier League start of the season I wasn't convinced De Ligt was just just

awkward. Another repeat offender against Brentford, wasn't it? At Old Trafford when he left the pitch covered in blood. Wasn't that against Brentford? Yeah, happened twice. Garnaccio, probably the most exciting player. I thought Ahmad was good when he came off as well. Some lovely moments from Ericsson. Harry Maguire looks pretty stable. But

What are we expecting when you've got such a changed, inexperienced team up against a highly motivated and very good team? We've got to pick out little bits. It's not really fair to judge it in its fullness, even though to the outsider, a 4-3 game should have been incredibly exciting. Yeah, it wasn't an exciting 4-3 game, really, was it? Although when Ahmad scored and it went through Fleck and I was thinking, oh, you're saying there's a chance?

Even then, it probably would have only been a 4-0 draw, but the commentators mentioning Lyon, those juices are beginning to flow again, and then you realise there's about 30 seconds left, so never mind. Let's talk about Alejandro Garnaccio then. He finished yesterday with a goal and assist. He's now scored 11 goals this season. That's his most ever in a campaign, and it's 11 goals, 10 assists, Laurie, in a pretty struggling side, which for a lad of his age...

is pretty impressive. I mean, the stats bear that out as well, really. Out of the under-21s across Europe's top five leagues, only Laminia Mal and Desiré Doué have better goal and assist numbers this season. And of course, PSG have already won the title in France and Barcelona look on the way to doing that. They're not in a battle for avoiding 17th spot. Yeah, they actually are pretty compelling numbers, aren't they? Particularly when you set them against other clubs

historical teenagers at Manchester United that made a big impact. It was a very good game for him. So obviously it's interesting that he was the one that started, that's probably going to start right, started away, probably going to start the home leg, unless he does shuffle things around a little bit, Amrin, maybe he will. But he's clearly in the first 11, right? And so he's the one starting and playing the full game. I thought his assists...

was excellent for Mason Mount and just another word on that guy you know the anticipation to get in the box and let the ball roll across him and finish as he did I thought was excellent so you know let's keep an eye on him for the season running Ugarte was maybe the other one who started and finished I mean Dogi went off at half time they were the three survivors from the first leg starting XI that also started at Brentford but yeah

His durability is another plus for Garnaccio. That's it, keeping him out there, right? And then obviously he was out there to score that late goal. Fantastic, you know, cut inside and finished with his right foot. You would love to see more of that. So again, there's this debate over does he...

Is he better off the left or off the right? Those two number 10 positions. He's kind of been off the right a bit more, hasn't he, more recently? Obviously, he had that missed effort to Mason Mount's cutback, which is probably Tyler Fredrickson's best moment, actually. That pass down the line to Mount, I thought, was really sharp. So, Garnett could have had a goal before he even got on the score sheet. But, yeah, he's kind of... This period is really interesting for him because, obviously, he's starting so much. He's playing a lot of games. And...

I think it's almost a trial or almost a, I don't know, a real fullest effort to give him that chance to show what he can do for United. And it's about getting the end product. I think that's what they want to see before the summer market. I know we've had this kind of in the background, these rumblings all along, and I still feel like that's,

a possibility come the summer because you've got this new contract potentially needed. Also, I mean, that will be, it's either a new contract or a sale really. They're the two options for United this summer. So this is a chance at the moment to really understand what he can bring to the table. I know it's still early and you want to see them develop but I think the fact that he's now actually providing those

cutting moments. Away in Bilbao, he was the guy that was actually making sure that Bilbao were kind of a bit edgy, I think, at the back. I think he was... I know he wasn't necessarily involved in the first goal or so. Well, he scored the offside goal, which was like a warning, wasn't it? Well, there we go, that was it, yeah. And he actually could have... Well, it was probably Ugarte taking a bit too long on the pass to let that be offside. So I think he's starting to show that in these last few games, that kind of edge to him. So, yeah, I think it could be a really important end to the season for him. But I was...

In a game where it was all about Brentford's direct attacks and muscularity up front, I think that's probably, as Andy was reflecting on, perhaps the part of Harry Amas' game that they took advantage of, that aerial ability, the second balls, that kind of thing. I think Garnaccio showed that. Actually, he's got that in his locker. It's just bringing it out more often. I think it was a top finish from Garnaccio. He had a goal, he had an assist, he got booked.

he couldn't sort his feet out just after half time he had like an air shot and

Maybe he could have done better there, but he was one of Manchester United's best players. And you mentioned Agate. I thought he broke up play well again and did well to find Lamine Mount on a counter-attack after 19 minutes. With Garnaccio, I've often heard it said that he is not best suited to play Ruben Amarin's style of football. So I think Laurie's point about getting some proper minutes now, look, you're getting a proper chance here because he might be sold because it's that pure profit thing because

Because he's going to want top money. You've both said it now. How much doubt is there about his future? There's doubt. Absolutely doubt. 100% doubt. And just on Andy's point, so I think Ameren wants a kind of

you know, really, when he gets to grips with this team, a kind of more patient build-up. Whereas, obviously, Garnaccio's strength is that transition, is that sort of strong running late into games. It's mad though, isn't it? That's still United's best source of attack. Well, exactly. And it should really be. You know, United's DNA, United's history is fast attacks. You know, we were talking about it on the extra podcast here, the counter-attack goal at Arsenal that still lives long in the memory. And so...

You need a bit of a combination, really, but I would be hesitant to move so far away from that kind of counter-attacking thrust that it becomes, yeah, pass, pass, pass. The issue is how much should his new contract be worth? Because Manchester United have overpaid on players, overplayed on young players who haven't won anything. So if someone wants the earth, at some point Manchester United...

we'll have to say no. And I'm not saying this is specific to Garnaccio. I was going to say, he has won something. He scored an FA Cup final for a start. Yeah. The other issue with him is he's one of the few players who you could probably get a considerable fee for.

And that would be pure profit because of the way he's come through the system. You've got to say he has been one of the successes of Manchester United. The fact he only cost 150 grand was incredibly well scouted and he's come through and we know he's had his ups and downs, but he has undoubtedly been a success set against a backdrop of so many players around.

who haven't been. There's going to be two sides to this like there often is. Yeah, I mean, obviously United are already working on Jadon Sancho's departure, Marcus Rashford's departure, Anthony's departure. You add Garnaccio to that, that's four wingers really who are at least wide forwards who look like they could well leave this summer if Garnaccio's future isn't as much doubt as you're saying.

Last time we gave him a bit of praise on the podcast, we did get quite a few comments back. So I do think he is still someone who seems to split opinion. The end product's in question still at times. Little moments like sorting out his feet or choosing the right ball still seem to be an issue for him. But just to put his performances at this age into context a little bit more. So he now needs just one more

goaler assists before the end of this season this is before he reaches the age of 21 and he's 21 in the summer to equal Cristiano Ronaldo's record of 25 Premier League golf involvements for United before the age of 21 he has played nine more matches made my nine more appearances than Ronaldo at this sort of equivalent age but that's still a pretty good marker for him and the thing that

The thing that really impresses me, to be honest, is his durability. The fact that he is available week after week after week and United have had so few players who have been able to do that. I mean, again, he's now started the last 13 matches in a row. He's only failed to feature in one game out of all 55 matches this campaign. And that was when he was left out of the Manchester derby for what Amarin described as disciplinary reasons.

He's actually, that's the only game in the past 100 matches for United that he's not featured. He started 74 of those games. In fact, the last time he was named in a squad and not used was September 2023. So that just underlines the,

How much has been used, Laurie? And that's actually the type of quality that United need more of, in a way. Absolutely. I mean, durability has been such a key aspect again this season, hasn't it? After last season with the injury problems. So you can't take it for granted the intensity, particularly that he plays the game at. You sort of think that's...

you know liable to get a muscle injury here or there but he's pretty robust he does get kicked and he seems to carry on okay sometimes you can see him you know get annoyed and I think he did that the G-Tech actually as well at one point when there's a counter attack that didn't reach him and he obviously picks the wrong option occasionally as well you know perhaps more often than not because he wants to shoot because he wants to kind of make an impact but you know I think

I think we go right back to a couple of years ago when you first saw him coming through and you were like, that's the kind of player I want at United, Ian, you were saying, because he has got that kind of mentality to own the stage and to take responsibility. And yeah, he was obviously doing that again at Brentford and you know, no doubt that that's what he'll want to do, you know, in the Europa League games to come, you know, hopefully I'm pluralising that, but he, yeah, he's a player that does seem to have that strong mindset and yeah,

Yeah, his life's changed, hasn't it? Obviously, he's got a young child and his family that were across with him when he first joined United. They've gone back, you know, his father and mother and brother. I'm not sure exactly where his brother is, but they've moved out, so they've got their own place now, him and his girlfriend. So, yeah.

Yeah, I think he's obviously had a lot of maturing to do at a young age, but he certainly seems the right kind of mentality. And I know we had this with Eriksen Haag, didn't we, where he sort of said he needs to just make sure he's on the right playing, I suppose, as a young player coming through. And he kind of won Eriksen Haag round. He seems to be doing it

with Ruben Amarin as well I know maybe it's a bit of a case of needs must given the players available but he also I don't think Amarin would be starting him as much as he is in these big games if he didn't have that element of trust with him that he's sort of forced his way back after that derby dropping that you mentioned He's featured in every game for Amarin apart from the derby whether starting or off the bench

That's good quality to have to win what it feels like two managers round. Yeah, when there are doubts. Like we say, it is that little bit of refinement on the decision-making, isn't it? And maybe the selfishness is maybe a bit misplaced at times with some of the efforts that he takes on. But yeah, I mean, there's definitely, I think, well, it'd be interesting to see what happens ahead of the summer. There's definitely some debate about what happens next for Garnaccio. Just to round off this section, if we can, Andy,

We had a message from Todd. He said, the more I hear you talk about how much better United play in Europe than in the Premier League, the more I wonder about Ruben Amarin's coaching style and experience. Is he just better suited to Europe? And might this be why United's leadership insisted that he join the club mid-season? Better to get that wake-up call now than in the first half of next season. What do you think? It's certainly a wake-up call. I think United have done better in Europe because...

of several factors the main one being the physicality of the Manchester United players against most of the opponents in the Europa League and

Also, the experiences really suited players like Casemiro in Europe and the fact that several of the games have been in Spain, for example, where he knows what it's like to go to the Basque country really well. And a lower standard of opponents. Let's be clear about it. If FCSB were playing in the Premier League, they would probably be bottom of the Premier League. So...

United have gone to slightly weaker opponents and beaten them. And when you've got really good ball-playing teams like Lyon, it's been pretty close fought. And I thought that the Athletic game would be even more close fought. I thought they were favourites to win away. And that obviously didn't happen. I've seen the reaction in Spain to that game and in the Basque country. And it's very much...

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Well, as the men's team battled to win the Europa League to get into the Champions League for next season, the women have already ticked it off. That's because they drew 2-2 against Manchester City in the WSL at Old Trafford yesterday to confirm their place in the Champions League for next season. Charlotte Harper was there to see it and she joins us now. Good morning, Charlotte. Morning, morning. Was it any good? The atmosphere was great. 31,465 at Old Trafford today.

That isn't a familiar ground for the women's team. It's hard to go and play your rivals there when it hasn't been created as a fortress. But 2-0 down, down to 10 players, and you're just thinking you just need a point. Are we going to throw this away because then United have to go and...

play against Arsenal, but to all, one point, Champions League, qualified, tick box, done. Yeah, it's an amazing achievement, isn't it? Certainly. You put in your piece about it not being pretty, but they got the job done. And basically, you know, United has had some brilliant comebacks at Old Trafford of late and this added to it. But then the red card really was a twist to make the end extremely nervous. I think I was really disappointed because United played so well against Chelsea midweek and

And they lost 1-0 and deserved to get something out of that. They were aggressive, they were disciplined, they were organised, they created chances, just didn't finish them. And so the contrast to that...

was night and day you know it was just really stop start really bitty and that probably played to their advantage because City got frustrated you know City are a possession based team who like that who like the ball who like the rhythm who like the flow and they just couldn't get into that um so yeah it wasn't pretty it wasn't a vintage performance um

But that has kind of defined this United team, that they have picked up points even though they haven't played to their best ability. Top comeback, Charlotte. I know loads of people were there who really enjoyed it. Obviously, a huge amount of sympathy for Manchester City not making European competition next year and Manchester United making European competition. Were you happy with the attendance, 31,000? Because...

When we had you on a previous podcast in September, you perhaps felt that the club had not marketed the last women's game to be played at Old Trafford? I think it's a decent turnout and something that should definitely be celebrated. I know there was criticism for the opening game against West Ham, where the attendance was really, really poor. The club did a kind of huge campaign around taking a seat. You know, this is...

a much more marketable game given there's something at stake, it's against your rivals coming into the business end of the season. So there's more strategy around that. But they were going for an attendance record and they didn't break it. It takes time and effort

energy and a specific targeting of an audience and getting your message out to the right people to make sure that that audience builds organically. It's the same sort of stuff that we've been talking about repeatedly to be fair isn't it? It's the challenge that

the women's side have got when they play the games at Old Trafford. I thought it was interesting that Mark Skinner said after the game that the crowd made the difference for United and got them over the line because you wrote at the very start of your piece, stoppage time felt like a lifetime for the team to get over the line and confirm this place in Europe ahead of City. Yeah, and you know, at Leigh Sports Village, up until Wednesday night, United had been undefeated all season. So they've created a real fortress there. That is their home. They're more comfortable there. Yeah.

This is not just a United problem. Chelsea had it before where they outgrew the capacity of King's medal, which is only a couple of thousand, and then needed to make that step to Stamford Bridge. Arsenal, the same with the Emirates.

It's the ever-evolving question of where the women's team should be. The crowd were really important, but I think City would have preferred to have played at Old Trafford rather than Leigh Sports Village because Leigh Sports Village has that bit of hostility around it. My friend Hassan actually took his daughter Isla to Old Trafford yesterday, I think for the first time, to watch a women's game. I just don't think he'd go to Leigh Sports Village, particularly it's such a long way out, and he said it was very busy.

chilled family atmosphere that obviously then, I guess, responded well to the game and kind of got involved, right? Can you describe what the kind of atmosphere is like for that kind of thing? And is it different then to Lee? And I also thought the goals were really high quality when I was watching back and the red card obviously felt like it changed the game, sort of made it that United were kind of hanging on rather than going for the win. But yeah, I mean, it seemed like a bit of a silly booking to pick up the second one. Yeah, I think...

The crowd, definitely there were ebbs and flows and they got behind the team and you know the Stretford end, you have the same public announcer as the men's game so there was that bite, there was that vibe, there was that energy. It's not as that like cauldron of energy that you get at LSV because it's... It's not like the hardcore is it? Yeah, it feels a bit more cavernous because Old Trafford is so big and...

The red card, I know that was foolish. The referee had no choice. And that really put United in a pickle because Jade Riviere went off injured at right back. One of United's strongest front-footed players replaced by Ethan Mannion. Mannion then gets sent off and you think, right, City are really in the ascendancy here. They're going to nick a late goal. But United hung on.

Is Chelsea winning the league every year a problem for the women's game, Charlotte? And what chance have Manchester United got of beating Chelsea in the FA Cup final? I know it was 1-0, I think, in 2023 to Chelsea. I think in any competition you want jeopardy. You want something at stake. Who's going to win it? And so having the same winner every six years is not good for the WSL because it becomes predictable sometimes.

This is the earliest that Chelsea have won the WSL for a long, long time. In the previous four years, it's gone down to the last day. I do think United have a good chance in the cup final. They lost to Chelsea 1-0 in November, were extremely passive, didn't create anything and just sat back in a low block. On Wednesday, they actually took the game to them, put them under pressure, had higher XG than Chelsea. But Chelsea...

The quality there is unmatched in the WSL. And we're looking at budgets. For 2023 to 2024 season, Chelsea's total expenditure was over double United's. So they spent...

20.2 million pounds United's was 9 million big difference so you have to commend United for you know doing as well as they have done on a shoestring budget we've talked about the challenges that the women's side have faced in the last year or so as well of course at the club with all the changes

Obviously, United have qualified for the Champions League once before, like we said earlier, two years ago, but they were beaten in the qualifying round against PSG, which felt like a very unlucky draw, to be honest. But they're going to face the same sort of challenge again, having to qualify to get through to the group stage. And the budgets...

Thing is, a big question. What do United do next? How do they try and improve on what they've managed to do so far on a fraction of the budget of the other clubs that they're challenging against? Because they still have this target of winning the WSL by 2028. And to me, it feels like if a team's spending double what you're spending, that's a very unlikely outcome.

thing that you're going to be able to do. It's going to take a lot of clever work to be able to usurp Chelsea. Yeah, and when you say you don't have the financial means, you have to think differently. United firstly have to work with what they've got. Mark Skinner acknowledged that that's his job to improve these players that he has. And he referenced new recruits from last summer like Anna Sandberg, Celine Bizet, Simia Wujo,

and nourishing and developing those players. But if you're looking at a United squad, which is like a six or a seven out of 10 player and Chelsea have got an eight or a nine player

out of 10 player, then that is the difference. And if you're saying, well, Chelsea, Arsenal, Manchester United have Champions League, great. Well, who's going to offer the best project? And with that comes inevitably the question of wages. And when you look at the difference in budgets, then that is perhaps more enticing to a player wanting to play Champions League than

They may be choosing Chelsea and Arsenal. So United have to be really savvy with their recruitment. Skinner spoke about this new kind of data team that Jason Wilcox is pulling together that is applicable to the men's and women's teams. But you have to have knowledge of the women's game over the last year

five if not ten years Paul Green is the master of succession planning at Chelsea he knows the women's game inside out players all over the world so

It's going to be tough for United. It's not easy knocking Chelsea and Arsenal off their perch. And they're finding that. They face Arsenal, of course, on the final day as well at the weekend. But if you want to know more about the challenge facing the women's side and the achievement of getting the point against Manchester City, Charlotte's piece is up on The Athletic now. We'll let you go, Charlotte. Thank you for joining us. Cheers, guys.

It feels like we've been waiting for this moment since we saw the team selection on Sunday, if not since the final whistle went on Thursday night. Manchester United against Athletic Club.

at Old Trafford on Thursday in the second leg of the Europa League semi-final. If you want to get yourselves in the mood, go back and have a listen to our last couple of extra podcasts. You may have already heard them. You may want to listen to them again, I don't know, just to get you in the right spirit. They were all about the greatest...

Old Trafford nights in Manchester United's European history. And then the second one was all about the greatest away days in Manchester United's European history. We had a fantastic response to them. So thank you to every single one of you who got in touch and everyone who listened. If you want to get yourself ready to go again on Thursday, as Andy Mitten would say, go and have a listen to that. We want Manchester United to be ready to go on Thursday, Andy, don't we again? Yeah, United need to go. Lyon scored four goals at Old Trafford in the last round.

I've let it clubber a better team than Lyon they're incredibly vengeful after what happened in the first leg I think the Harry Maguire was very lucky on the challenge at the start of the second half the red card we can argue it both ways it looks 50-50 when it's the hand arm area it's a huge risk but I think

I've also said to a few bass friends, Garnaccio had a clear penalty in the second half as well, which wasn't given. I don't know if we talked about that after the first leg, you know, but I can't believe that was barely even looked at, it felt like. They moved on from it very quickly. Yeah, well, they're going to move on from it quickly, but I'm not. So let's discuss it. Should have been 5-0, absolutely. I'll stand like a stuck record here, but United fans have got to be up for it.

Because if the backsides of United fans fall out, as it did against Sevilla in 2018, that is not a good thing. United have given themselves a huge advantage to get to the final, but this tie is absolutely not over. Let's be honest, there was a few arses falling out when Lyon had their comeback at Old Trafford. And the atmosphere dipped, by the way. The arses left. Oh, United fans patting themselves on the back for an amazing atmosphere. At the start of the game, yep, I agree. At the end of the game, yeah, absolutely.

But when Lyon started scoring, or even before that, when Lyon fans got their flares out, when they'd not even scored, Old Trafford had gone flat. Yeah, okay. And United fans can do better. They can do better in the second leg. It's got to be a wall of sound.

against the Basques. They've won at Old Trafford before. They've got a brilliant manager. They're feeling vengeful. They don't feel that they've done themselves justice. And they have got the biggest motivation ever. The final is in their home city. Yeah, I think that's why there was that collective head loss when the penalty was given and the red card as well because...

you know you can imagine if that was at Old Trafford and Manchester United had been into playing the Europa League final at Old Trafford there'd be a lot of emotion attached to that as well do you know what's planned Andy by the way before the game on Thursday is there a similar sort of thing to what we had against Lyon in the quarter final I need to check I've heard a couple of murmurings but I need to stand it up properly I

whether the club do something or whether the TRA, but I'll get on to it. To be honest, I got back from Bilbao at midnight on Friday. The weekend was a whirl. I'm finishing off the United wee stand, but I'll get on to it. I think the next few days we're going to see building right up to... What is a European semi-final, Ian? It's a massive game. Yeah, absolutely. We're doing that now, aren't we? We're beginning the build-up. Yeah.

Right, so in terms of Athletic Club Lorry, they drew 0-0 in the Bastarby against Real Sociedad at the weekend, seven changes, so similar to Manchester United, I guess, for the game against Brentford. Nico Williams out of the squad completely, he'd been battling a groin injury before the first leg, so maybe that's a situation to keep an eye on as to how fit exactly he is. But

Is 3-0 a dangerous lead or can you feel quite confident that United are going to get this job done without too much drama on Thursday? Dangerous lead is funny, isn't it? It used to be 2-0 was the dangerous lead. Now, obviously, United are perhaps in some quarters fearing the worst and I suppose it is a full 90 minutes, potentially more, ahead for that lead to be erased. But as we said on the last podcast...

All the precedent, all the history and the stats are in United's favour. I know that then you've still got to play the game, but...

surely they're not going to let this one slip. Greg says, a three-goal lead is great, but as we proved in the 20-minute span against Lyon, and again on Sunday, the speed and ease which the team can surrender, this team, sorry, can surrender four goals, means the tie is certainly still in the balance. That feels too strong to me that it's still in the balance. I mean, United just need to score first, don't they, and move past any of this conversation, essentially. Yeah.

United don't even need to do that. United could draw 0-0, but they're not going to go out and go for a 0-0. They could lose 2-0. So United have given themselves a huge advantage, which is fantastic because a week ago, none of us could have seen this. Do you not think that they have to just go out and get it done? Yeah, yeah. Is the best way to deal with all this, attack them rather than sitting back and trying to soak up pressure and wait for them to score to then jump into action? Because that's the danger. You end up being just too passive in the tie, isn't it?

gets away from you. 100%. You're totally right. Look at the first half against Lyon. The team did exactly what they were asked to do. It was only then, and all the players were self-critical after the game, that when they tried to play a different type of game...

a very good ball-playing team like Lyon could pass through Manchester United's lines. And they did that with 10 men as well. But when Manchester United were on to Lyon in the first half, you were seeing Ugarte, you were seeing Bruno doing fantastically well. They were very, very effective. And United have got the beating of Athletic Club, but give them a chance and they're going to take it. And you might say that they're also due a little bit of luck as well, but your point is right.

United cannot go into that and think we're going to defend a lead. You're at Old Trafford, you've got to go out and attack them. And Manchester United have got the players who've got the ability. And an early goal would settle so, so much the atmosphere there. Yeah, Laurie, team selection-wise, how similar to the first leg do you think it will be? I mean, there's a question mark, I guess, over Nusmaz Raoui, who missed the game completely at the weekend and...

Hammerin said after the first leg that he was dead as in you know incredibly tired and fatigued so maybe there's a bit of a question mark over him yeah I feel like he'll probably be okay just on a hunch basically because he obviously left Onan entirely out of the squad even though he travelled to Brentford which was interesting watched from the stands I feel like the pre-athletic

away leg warm-up where you had Dorgo and Masraoui training solo showed that they obviously are at the limits of where they're at physically. So perhaps not a surprise. I mean, Masraoui's played so much this season. I think he's played like 55 games or something, which is way beyond what we perhaps anticipated, certainly when you factored in the potential injury issues that he had at Bayern Munich towards the end of his time there. I imagine it's the most he's ever played, to be honest. I've not checked that, but at Bayern he wasn't a sure starter every week and

Ajax, I don't know whether they even would have had this number of games, to be fair. Well, and in so many positions as well, obviously, let's not forget the number 10 role that he occupied in Istanbul. Well, even across the back, he's played four different positions. I mean, and then if you include the fact that he was in a back four at the start of the season, you'd probably argue that he's played six different positions this season. It's incredible.

Seven, if you include the ten. Yeah, I was chatting off air with a few people around United and trying to figure out... It feels like Bruno Fernandes is going to be playing with the season, right? But I think Masraoui's put a certainly good effort in to at least challenge it a little bit. But yeah, so I feel like he will come back in...

Obviously, Amarim was protecting him as well because you've got Dallow out. So you don't want to risk that player who can play that right wing-back role getting injured or having some kind of effect. So I think it'll be the same team, really. I mean, why would you change a team that's gone and done that? Lindelof starts? Yeah, sorry, Lindelof. So, OK. But then De Ligt, I sort of thought De Ligt would perhaps come back in. I mean...

Does Shaw start? Is that why Shaw went off at half-time? That felt to me like that was a sign he could do, yeah. Yeah, but do you also, has he taken him off just on the proviso of potentially him coming on in that game? He's needed a wing-back maybe. He didn't even want to risk it at all. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, probably Lindelof or Shaw is the one, right, that we're looking at and thinking, does that change around? Although obviously that was what Amram was reflecting on, wasn't he, after the game where he was saying, I might be really struggling for central defenders, which is crazy given how many they've got. It's just that they've all sort of fallen away at the same moment. So that's probably the one big thing to consider. I do also wonder, just on Andy's point around the kind of atmosphere, the kind of

the sense of sort of dissatisfaction that Bilbao Athletic Club will come into this with, whether they will immediately sort of get on the officials, because clearly that's what they were trying to do, right? As soon as the red card happened, they were then, right,

the plans, everybody was pressurising the officials to even things up, shall we say. I do wonder whether that's why they didn't really make much of that Garnaccio penalty. They were thinking, geez, we need to get these guys out safely if we give another penalty here. If VAR intervenes on this one, then we're going to have to get them an escort out of here. So I do wonder if they will come into this game with a

I don't know, just a clear mind to make sure that any possible infringements are emphasised to the referee. Yeah, we'll have to keep an eye on that, certainly. United will have to give their best

if they feel like Athletic Club are trying to influence the officials. I'm sure they'll be. Maguire will definitely do that. He was straight on for that red card and he knows all about how to just have a chat with the officials. Yeah, there'll be nearly 70,000 people attempting that if they need to, I'm sure, as well. We had a flick before of some of the travel stuff going to Bilbao for the final because this lead, Andy, has meant that a lot of people...

I've already booked to get to the final. I mean, it's maybe slightly dangerous considering the season that United have had, but in other ways, it makes sense because the prices are wild. Sometimes in life, you've got to hedge your bets. Some people do have an option of cancelling travel or paying for the privilege. On certain rail tickets, you can get...

high percentage of the refund, but Wild is quite right. There's evidence of some serious price gouging going on. We saw a little bit of it for the semi-final. So if you take, for example, Barcelona, which is a big connector between Manchester and Bilbao, a lot of the flights go through there. The one-way flights went from 80 to 281 for the semi-final before finding the market price. For the final, I'm seeing one-way flights 483.

Now, that's what they're asking. And there are parallels with the hoteliers asking ridiculous amounts. So my hotel in Bilbao last week was 180. Okay, so that was for two people. That is up on one of the travel sites for 4,000 pounds. Wow. It's a pretty standard hotel for the night of the final. Now, asking for something and getting it is very different. And Parisian hoteliers...

were bitten because they got very greedy around the last Olympic Games and had to drop the prices in the end. So that has happened before, but the prices are really, really high. So you're seeing chartered planes being muted should Manchester United get through.

the type of prices where you could easily fly to Los Angeles and back for. It's a pretty tricky place to get to. That said, there are four airports within an hour's proximity. We don't know who the opponents are going to be. We don't know if it's going to be Athletic or Manchester United or Bodo Glimpse or Tottenham. There are clear probabilities here. I think Manchester United are in a better position than Tottenham Hotspur when it comes to reaching the final. But if you look hard enough, you can still get...

some decent prices what you've got to give yourself is time if you want to go in and out on the day that is not going to be possible to do cheaply if you want to go out on the Monday and come back on the Friday you can still do it for a couple of hundred quid and enjoy traveling across Spain well yeah get a week's holiday out of it I suppose and hope that Manchester United make the end of that week particularly sweet we had a lot of people getting in touch with gripes about the situation um Jared for example who'd

made a reservation in January at a certain price and then it's come back to it it'd been cancelled it's now listed at a much higher price there'll be a lot of people I'm sure who have already got the grievances I guess Laurie the Spurs situation could change things possibly a little bit if Budaglint were to go through then you'd imagine they wouldn't travel in the same sort of numbers as Spurs and obviously then flights out of the UK might be a bit better because their lead will also mean that quite a few Spurs fans will have already made plans I'm sure.

it will change things if Bode Glimp gets through rather than Spurs you'll see it'd be hilarious for a start well I mean I suppose we can pause on that just for the moment until United are definitely there maybe but I accept that I've already counted my chickens a little bit no that's the only way I'll feel better if United don't get there if Spurs also go out and maybe not actually I mean that would be comedy but yeah

anyway yeah I mean yeah the hoteliers I think would be devastated as well because I think you would see a lot of cancellations and would they be able to charge the same but they couldn't and this is I suppose the big debate for UEFA whenever they pick a host city like how do you gauge the

the kind of calibre of teams that are going to be in it and you kind of have to just accept that the free market does happen but I don't know how you'd legislate for it particularly but it does feel wrong when this is something that's such an emotional attachment you know you kind of it's a one off it's such a special occasion and obviously you know

It shouldn't really be, in my opinion, that then people take advantage of that. But we are in a capitalist society, so there we go. But yeah, I think certainly it would help United's point of view if it was a team of lesser fan base and maybe financial resources as those from Tottenham. I'm sure the Budda Glimp fans will be able to afford it. They have to pay about 15 quid a pint over there, don't they? Yeah, fair play.

Four grand for a hotel room is probably standard in Norway, to be honest. I mean, I know people that are flying to various different locations. If you can kind of pit your path a little bit, the price comes down because it's an unusual detour and you just have to not sleep, basically, on the night of the game, perhaps. Who needs a hotel? Maybe...

Why would you sleep? I remember for 99, we didn't have a hotel. It was a day trip. Okay, it was a thing laid on by the club, but we kind of just danced through the streets of Barcelona on the way back to the airport, and our flight back was at like 6 o'clock in the morning. So you can save a bit of money that way. At Moscow, they couldn't get us out quick enough. We didn't have a hotel either. You went to the airport. It was just like, get on that flight. Well, that's not our flight. Don't matter. Just get on that and get out of here. So...

Was that like a 3am finish? It was like a really late one. Just went straight to the airport afterwards. There's a ferry. People are looking at getting a ferry from Portsmouth, I think, to Bilbao. That's a short 32-hour trip. A 32-hour ferry. Fantastic. There's so much to be excited about. Just got to get there. Just got to get there. And don't write Bodo Glimt off. They were missing their two best players. Their best player, Patrick Berg...

basically destroyed Roma in the first leg of the quarterfinals. He's going to be back. They're playing at home on the plastic in the Arctic Circle. Tottenham Hotspur are absolutely beatable. So I'd say Tottenham are still favourites, but that one's really in the balance. But isn't it great that we're talking like this in May?

Full of enthusiasm. After this season. After this season. It's such a Jekyll and Hyde feeling. How do you square these two sensations? The league team have not even got 40 points, but we're looking forward to a European final. It doesn't feel right, really, does it? No, but it feels wonderful at the same time. It certainly does. Because it's been such a terrible season, and it's alive. You've seen the league game. I don't even know who won the league this year in the Premier League. It doesn't matter, because all we're bothered about...

is possibly going back to Bilbao. Seems like a good place to leave it and let's hope that that smile we've all got on our faces can continue into our next record after the match on Thursday night after the second leg against Athletic Club. Let's hope that it's us who can look forward to that final. But for the moment, Andy, Laurie, thank you very much for being with us. Thank you to Charlotte again for coming on earlier on. Like I say, we'll be back after the game on Thursday.

Fingers crossed. Come on, you Reds. Enjoy. See you on the next one. Thanks for listening. Bye-bye. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.