Watkins interest assessed and where's Mbeumo?
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This is Talk The Devils, the athletics podcast dedicated to Manchester United. Coming up on the show today, we talk Ollie Watkins and assess the latest name linked with the move to Manchester United.

A player who should be making a move to Manchester United at some point in the not-too-distant future, we think, we hope, we thought he might sign by now, is Arbry. Why is he not Arbry just yet? And there's also a new role for Darren Fletcher as well. We look at his switch to coaching the under-18s. Obviously, everyone is here, as you'd expect. So, hello, Carl. Hello, Laurie.

And hello, Andy. And it's a very exciting day, isn't it, for Talk of the Devils? Because you may have seen already on social media that we have launched our YouTube channel. So the first video will go up there next week. There's a little trailer of what you can expect on there already. A sneak peek of our actual faces. Quite a few people have said already, oh, right, that's what you actually look like. Rather than just listening to our voices, you'll have the option to see all the smirks, smiles, and

and side comments in vision you can subscribe now there's a link in our show description to do that or you can search tot devils on youtube we also have an instagram account and a tiktok account which have been set up as well it's the same handle tot devils on both of those very exciting times the comments are already kicking off on youtube as well so

Let's have a quick look at those. John Lawler says, Laurie's discovering the summer solstice day and now a brand new YouTube channel. It's truly the stuff of dreams. You in dreamland, Laurie? I'm absolutely in dreamland. And I'm just looking at Andy Mitten's reaction to the TikTok news and all the possibilities whirring through his brain. He's thinking, finally, I've got a platform where I can show off my dance moves, my

my synergy with the youth of today. He is loving this. So I am buzzing that we're able to show our faces on YouTube. It's been a long time coming and a lot of people read my name online and think,

you know he's a woman uh so this would be nice just to confirm that I am in fact a male okay that that will be good for for everyone I think to have that clarity uh Jesse as well first it'll be YouTube then Hollywood I'm not sure about that but he says one thing is for sure Andy will mention a stadium he visited in Guadalajara so have you ever visited a stadium there Andy I'm sure you have

One of the few United pre-seasons I missed was in Guadalajara. I think it was in 2010. United played in Houston and then they travelled south to

to guadalajara or maybe it was a couple years after it was to do with the chicharito deal maybe it was two or three years after that so i'm a bit gutted that i didn't go but i have been to mexico i once set off to visit the azteca stadium and ran out of time in the middle of mexico city but yeah looking forward to the youtube if anyone ever comes up to me and says you're my favorite tiktoker i think that'll be the time when i call it a day content creator andy

content creator Andy Mitten are you Carl indeed happier than Laurie watching Mason Mount score from 50 yards that's what Iman wanted to know oh

I remember squeezing your thigh when Mount scored, didn't I, Laurie? Probably like short of arches. It was a perfect reaction, yeah. Yeah, I'm very excited about this. TikTok, YouTube. Was it actually the squeeze of the leg that prompted the reaction as opposed to the goal on the pitch, Laurie? It was a fabulous, let's say, cocktail of sight,

touch feel smell sound all those things combined you know elicited that noise right okay um i think we better move on actually and talk about football but yeah our youtube channel is there such glorious content like you've just heard will continue i'm sure um so go and have a look at that tot devils on youtube tiktok and instagram right let's talk ollie watkins

So Laurie teased us on the last podcast that he had heard a name, that he wanted to reveal the name, but he had to do a little bit more work before he could do that. The work's been done and the name has been revealed. So how interested do you think, Laurie, Manchester United actually are in Ollie Watkins? That is a good way to phrase things because as ever with these things, and this is why I was cautious, I suppose, on the last podcast, you kind of want to make sure that there's some concrete...

you know, interest there. And I said, there you go, you go and make a way, go away and make the calls and try and firm things up. And yeah, he's on, he's on a list basically. And his name hadn't been linked with United to my knowledge, you know, in any meaningful way before that point. So I thought it was fair to record the fact because,

The questions are there. Who will United sign as a centre-forward if they sign somebody? Because Victor Jokeres, it feels like, does want Arsenal. I mean, there's a lot of claim and counterclaim going on around his position. People are now tracking all these targets every move on social media like it means something as well. This is it. So, I mean, hopefully we can remove ourselves from that a little bit. We have got an update coming on our TikTok account.

though. Okay, brilliant. I'm only joking. We've got Andy Mitten doing a particular dance to symbolise each of these transfer targets. Right for Watkins. Victor Osherman's wages, you know, considered too much. Hugo Ekotike's price tag for Frankfurt, again, seems too high. So who is out there? And Ollie Watkins is on the list, basically. They are considering that because

The situation at Villa is an interesting one. They were obviously open in some way to doing a deal with Arsenal back in January, but were pricing at about £60 million. Arsenal, I think, had them at about £40 million. So, yeah, maybe ultimately the price is too much even for United's blood at this point if they do push forward with...

you know a pursuit but I'm told that yeah contact's been made in terms of checking out what that might look like he actually to my knowledge was first raised in the Marcus Rashford transfer to Aston Villa where obviously they had that 40 million loan option to buy didn't trigger it I think because Rashford ultimately wants Barcelona but amid that conversation when Villa were looking at how it could potentially work I think Watkins name was brought up then and

So, yeah, let's see. I mean, obviously a play that United have looked at previously, 2023, they ultimately went for Rasmus Hoyland and his age at 29 is at the top end of what, you know, United would consider, I think. And actually they've gone obviously a lot younger and,

and maybe that's ultimately what Sir Jim Ratcliffe's regime want to go in for but I think Ruben Amerin would like players that can hit the ground running immediately hence why they're going after Mateus Cunha and Brian Mbomo so Ollie Watkins would fit that bracket now how much would he cost will they actually pursue it I do think it is linked to Rasmus Hoyland's future because if he goes which I think

I don't know, I'm speaking to people and it feels like that's perhaps more likely than not at this stage and even a sale perhaps more likely than not than a loan. Yeah, I think so. We'll see how it develops, but Inter are there firmly. So if he goes, I don't see how United can't replace him. So they would need an option and Watkins, to my knowledge, is one of those options.

Yeah, Carl, you've written about him on The Athletic, outlined the box predator that Manchester United are assessing. What exactly do you think he'd bring? Well, there was two or three episodes on the Ten Hag where I described Rasmus Hoyling as a young,

Ollie Watkins, and it seems like United have gone, well, if we're having problems with a young Ollie Watkins who needs to develop, why don't we just buy an older Ollie Watkins? Skip to the end. He was, or was known as being a very good channel runner in a way that a confident Rasmus has been in the past, but in the last two or three seasons, particularly on Una Emery's development, he's become more of a fixed point in that penalty area, really, really developed his work in and around the six-yard box. He's...

better in the air than every single striker United currently have in their books but also because he has that experience of being a channel runner he is pretty good at drifting left or right into those half spaces getting those cutbacks and setting up other people as well like this is a striker who not only is going to get you 10 to 15 goals a season but probably get you five five to seven assists as well he is a good striker I am only allowed to talk about this at this volume because my girlfriend is away because she still hates him for what he did in the Euro semi-final against Netherlands

Great finish. I think we mentioned on this pod before, United first asked about Watkins in 2020, just before he went to Aston Villa.

And that was the club saying, keep us informed of any developments, but not acting upon those developments. So that's five years on. I think another point here is Ruben Amarin wants premiership ready, Premier League ready players. This is not a transfer window when you are going to see substantial signings of the likes of Hoyland, players who are not ready to play in the Premier League immediately. Right.

amarin needs to start winning straight away there's no bedding in time they've got to be premier league players and laurie mentions players being on the list so maybe some context about how these lists work so if we wind back a year united had nine strikers on their main list and you have the top three strikers so that would be sesco

at Brighton was one of them, Bonnyface as well. They were the three, none of them ended up coming to Manchester United and then you have a bracket below that with maybe seven or eight players, alternative options where the club would consider a bridging option, where they might consider a loan option, where there might be issues with their age, with their cost, with their contracts, with injuries, so you

there's so many moving parts when a football club is looking at a player and

And there's a lot of junk around, as you see. This really is a silly season for transfer stuff. And I could sense a tiredness in your, Tony, and when you're talking about it, I'm with you on that one. But a lot of people are addicted to this sort of stuff. They just are. Well, I can tell it always perks you up, Andy. We've mentioned that before. Go on, Carl. No, Andy's completely correct about the list. We've also spoken before about the...

when United were in the market for a left-sided centre-back, Lissandra Martinez was on that list. Also, Pau Torres was on that list as well. And what very often happens, particularly when there's a club of United size, is if you are an agent, if you are a manager, if you are someone and you know that your player is on the list...

It might be advantageous for you to say, we're on United's list, we're on United's list, because then you can start talking about contracts. Does it matter that you're 18 on that list? No. And that's how you get some really, really, really silly daft stories. I think Laurie knows Instagram slightly better than me, but I think maybe this is more...

United liking Ollie Watkins' Instagram stories yet, but not quite doing the old DM slides. I was wondering where you were going with that. I mean, listen, your Instagram story game was strong yesterday, Carl, playing in that heat. I saw the images, so credit to you for getting out there in 30-odd degrees. Just on this, Laurie, I mean, talking of lists, we'll talk about Brian and Bermo in a moment and the sort of protracted negotiations that they're now becoming, but

If United are to get better at buying players for better value, they do need to have lists and work down the list, don't they? It doesn't feel like there's been a great deal of working down lists. It feels like over the years it's been, he's the target, go and get him, what's the price,

And eventually they pay it. Well, yeah, and maybe pay even more, to be honest. I think certainly what's going on now as well is United are trying different things, that they're having conversations with agents, with other clubs at times, where they are seeing, asking what might be possible for different players. So, for example, that's where I think the Christopher Nkunku

link has come from, you know, United, Chelsea, you know, some kind of contacts, you know, Alejandro Garnaccio, who is obviously a player that Chelsea have been interested in previously, might still be this summer. So in those conversations, players get raised by either side and it's always a little bit difficult, you know, you get different versions from different clubs as to who proposed who, you know, because Villa, for example,

from a United point of view, they needed to sell a player to meet PSR regulations. Now they've actually sold the women's team to themselves and by all accounts, they're okay on that front. Now still, maybe there is some suspicion that they also need to sell a player. I don't know the exact finances of it, but that's the kind of detail that dictates whether I think a club pursues a certain target. And

And yeah, so I think you'll see a few more links maybe even still coming out because like I say, United want alternatives so that they aren't

you know, absolutely wedded to having to go for a certain player. Now, clearly they are doing that with Brian and Burma, and that's why you get in this log ahead, which we'll come to a little bit more with Brentford. But for example, last summer, they did walk away from the deal for Jared Brantthwaite at Everton. And in the end, they signed Matthijs de Ligt. So that's the kind of thing I think that they want to get into a position on. And I think when you come back to Watkins though, yeah, he's 29, but to Carl's point, he got 24 goals and assists last season. So,

So not only is he a scorer, but he's also a provider. That was only behind. Only Haaland and Isak, yeah. In terms of strikers. In terms of strikers, yeah, we're ahead of him. And he's scored double figures in the Premier League for the last five seasons. So overall, he's got 74 Premier League goals in 184 games for Villa. So he is clearly someone of pedigree. It's just the age profile is obviously a departure from what, you know,

Ratcliffe's regime has previously gone for. More of what United need Andy than Mbomo in some ways? This profile of player? United need goals. Exactly. That's absolutely true. I suppose it depends on what the future is for Asmus Hoyland. Is he going to be the number nine striker? Unless there's outgoings, my understanding is that the big B...

If he comes from the Beards. Creates a bang. Yeah, beard a bang. Then United have got to be careful with the money. Further funds will be released when there's further departures. But there's so many moving parts here. And in addition to lists, there's also agents...

fabricating the fact that Manchester United are interested. I could count five or six players in the last year or so where they said, United are interested, do you want to write about him? And I put it to people who I trust at United and they're like, it's not true, we looked at him last year. And then the agent, no, no, it's absolutely true and by the way, you better be quick because all these other clubs are interested. Yeah, but it's not true. So,

There's a lot of fabrication going on. You've got a lot of agents, loads of agents, pitching their players at Manchester United.

Added to the confusion of the fact there's been so many changes, who actually does negotiation at Manchester United is settling down a bit now, but there has been so many changes in the last years and every agent thinks that their player is absolutely good enough to improve a 15th place Premier League team. They probably are, in fairness. Anyway, let's talk about a player that Manchester United have nearly got. Nearly, I say. Brian Mbermoe.

As you've probably heard by now, we've teamed up with BetMGM this season. We'll be using BetMGM lines to make all of our picks, and we'll have special offers for our listeners each week. If you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code THEATHLETIC, and you'll get a one-year subscription to The Athletic, plus up to a $1,500 first bet offer on your first wager with BetMGM. Here's how it works.

Download the BetMGM app and sign up using bonus code THEATHLETIC. Make your first deposit of at least $10, place your first bet on any game, and claim your voucher for a one-year subscription to The Athletic. See?

See BetMGM.com for terms. U.S. promotional offers not available in D.C., Mississippi, New York, Nevada, Ontario, or Puerto Rico. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. Available in the U.S. Call 877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY 467-369 in New York. Call 1-800-NEXT-STEP in Arizona, 1-800-327-5050 in Massachusetts, 1-800-BETS-OFF in Iowa, 1-800-270-7117 for confidential help in Michigan, 1-800-981-0023 in Puerto Rico. First bet offer for new customers only in partnership with Kansas Crossing Casino,

and hotel. Don't forget, if you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code THEATHLETIC and you'll get a one-year subscription to The Athletic, plus up to a $1,500 first bet offer on your first wager.

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Because at Verizon, whether you're already a customer or you're just joining us, we got you. Visit Verizon today. Price guarantee applies to then current base monthly rate. Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers. BetterHelp Online Therapy bought this 30-second ad to remind you right now, wherever you are, to unclench your jaw, relax your shoulders, take a deep breath in and out.

Feels better, right? That's 15 seconds of self-care. Imagine what you could do with more. Visit betterhelp.com slash random podcast for 10% off your first month of therapy. No pressure, just help. But for now, just relax. Laurie, why haven't Manchester United signed Brian and Bermot yet?

Because they haven't bid the fee that Brentford want. Although there's a little bit of confusion over exactly what that might be. Is it going higher by the day, possibly? I get the sense that this is what might be suspected by United and...

I think they feel they have bid a fair price for a player that was under the impression that he could leave Brentford for a good value. So the second bid that David Ornstein reported being 55 million plus 7.5 million in add-ons, so that's 62.5 million. Good maths. Yeah, thank you. I was just adding that up there. I needed your support, didn't I? So obviously that's the same fee as Mateus Cunha. I think we said on the last podcast that Brentford

were pitching for a higher fee than Cunha given Mbomo's stats. There is obviously this idea that Spurs have made a bid of 70 million and I think that's being used by Brentford as a kind of gauge but at the same time Spurs are denying to me and I think other people that they've actually made an official bid so there's lots of

claim and counterclaim again these are negotiations someone just mentioned the smoke and mirrors of the transfer window I don't know but that's it it's not even journalists it's actually within these deals it's with the people that are negotiating these deals as well that you're having this kind of poker game of it's kind of a bit of a bluff right it's sort of how much can you you know push the opponent almost to bid for it's a

When does a bluff become a bluff? And when does it become reality? Because ultimately, if you win the hand, you don't have to show your cards. So I still get the sense that there's optimism around it. I think that Brian Mbumu wants it. He obviously wants United. He's made that clear to Tottenham, to Brentford, to Manchester United. And so I think it's at a point where United just don't want, I don't think, to be seen or even to actually...

B, paying over the odds for a player when they are tight on finances, when they obviously were budgeting for a £30 million Liam DeLapp

And now they're having to extend that to more than double that for a player. And then obviously that means that that dictates a little bit what you do on the sales side of things. So let's see, there's going to be a crunch point at some point soon, as we said on the last podcast, 7th of July is when most players are back for pre-season. What does Brian and Bermudu do when it comes to reporting for Brentford? The player can agitate for a move. It could be really, really awkward and go, right, I'm going to leave for free in a couple of years. But obviously it doesn't help Manchester United right now.

I don't think Manchester United should be overpaying players, but what a club is prepared to pay is subjective. The fundamentals have not changed in the month that I first heard his name, in that the player wants to come to Manchester United and Brentford are trying to create an auction to get as much money as possible for the player. If there's anything United did wrong, it was payback.

pay quickly for Cunha but I'm glad that United did pay quickly for Cunha and get it done because that gave Brentford a marker to go well you've paid that for him but actually the stats for Big B are

are even more impressive. So if you paid that for him, then you can pay this for him. But I understand why United went early for Kunja, just to act quickly, to settle fans down. Move the narrative on from Bilbao, won it basically. Yeah, but United fans don't help here, by the way. Or online United fans don't help here. Because there's this desperation and this clamour that ultimately led to Frankie, not Frankie de Jong, Donny van der Beek being signed.

in a rush because he was available at a price just to calm fans down. Was that the right thing to do? I don't think it was. We're still quite early on in the summer, but I get that there's a desperation for new players and probably always will be. We're early on in the transfer window and also it's not just the money United have spent on Cunha. Let's look at the previous transfer windows. United...

being interested in a football player, fixing in on them as the number one target, saying we're not going to go above a certain figure. And then this brinksmanship slowly, slowly takes this number higher and higher and higher. Anthony was signed for a fee that everyone knows Manchester United initially didn't want to pay for. Hoyland was signed for a fee that United didn't want to pay initially. This happens more than once. So it's really hard because United want to be financially stable.

but they are still having to pay off previous transfer windows mistakes. And you've got a bunch of other clubs, not just in the Premier League, but also around Europe going, yeah, but you spent that much money on that player ages ago. You can surely cover up 5 million more here. It is quite annoying that Spurs have won the Europa League and now are still doing some sort of shenanigans to annoy Manchester United this summer, isn't it?

What I also like about the Manchester United summer transfer windows is the new names that you learn along the way. There's new characters, subplots that suddenly emerge at moments you don't expect. Enter the Brentford sporting director, Phil Giles, who I'll be totally honest, I'd never heard of before the other day. But Jay Harris has written up what he had to say on The Athletic. And Larry, he says, if needs be...

Brian Mbomo is happy to stay next season. In fact, he wouldn't be massively surprised if he did stay. I mean, I think it's an interesting choice, isn't it, now for Brentford's sporting director to go public. I think it's probably a response, dare I even say it, to David Ornstein's story about

you know, Brian and Burma telling Spurs and Brentford that he wants to join Manchester United. So kind of ruling out that Spurs possibility. So therefore supposedly, you know, withdrawing any bid that Spurs may or may not have made, it's irrelevant because if Burma doesn't want to go there, then you can't be used as a, as a counterpoint to United's pursuit. So yeah, but he's, he's, he's doing his club's work, isn't he? He's absolutely going into bat for Brentford, which is correct and right. And he's raising the possibility that he could stay at

I mean, I'd be amazed, right? Like, how do you get to this point of a transfer where he clearly wants to leave? You know, your head coach has been allowed to leave. This is Brentford's model, isn't it? You know, they do buy players and sell them on for a profit. Well, in the same interview, he's talking about Christian Nergard going to Arsenal. It's a strong possibility. He's earned it. You know, the price for him, I know it's a totally different player, different age, different length of time at Brentford, resale value, whatever. But, you know,

give us the price for him and he can go, you know, quite open, quite sort of relaxed about it, almost backing Nogat to make the move. This is Brentford, this is what we do. And then the tone is completely different for Mbomo. Well, so you don't know what's going on behind the scenes there, do you? Maybe it's different, you know, people being involved in things that have dictated what Brentford are doing. I also think Mbomo is just such a pivotal player for them. They can't be seen to lose him for any less than they want to. But at the same time, this is Brentford's model. They sell players

it's kind of part of their sales pitch to these players coming into the club that we will allow you to leave at the right moment for the right price when you've earned it. Well,

I don't want to be talking down, but I suppose they've got to be a little bit careful not to price out players for moves eventually. I mean, I know they may well point at Brighton and say, well, Caicedo went for a hundred odd million, you know, so this is a perfectly fair amount for a player that scored 20 goals in the Premier League last season. I don't know what the right price for him exactly is, but it feels like they are in the right ballpark, both clubs. It's just this...

you know, this attempt for both sides to kind of come through and say they've kind of got a good deal, I think. But let's see, maybe, maybe ultimately each side does decide that the other one isn't playing fair and walks away. But,

I just would be surprised at this point. Could United walk away, Andy? Should they walk away at this point, considering the way that the negotiations are going? Yes, they could walk away. No, I don't think they should walk away. The players made it really clear that he wants to join Manchester United. There's huge numbers at stake here and millions of pounds. You think Manchester United flew to Asia for a few million at the end of the season?

What Brentford want, in addition to what's been offered, is a lot more than that. And also the negotiators at the clubs, they're only acting on their instruction as well. And finances are tight for Manchester United. What Brentford would want from Manchester United, if no other suit has come along, is a panic decision. And what happens then is you end up overpaying for somebody like Anthony.

or the season starts and results don't go your way and then you go to market in desperation, not in a strong position. So it helps that Brentford say to players, we're not going to stop you moving on. It absolutely helps that the player wants to join Manchester United, but he is still contracted. It's just brinkmanship and the stakes are high.

I would think that he will join Manchester United. Brentford are just trying to push and push. Brentford will love the fact that Man United fans are seemingly desperate, but United have performed particularly poorly in the transfer market in the last 10 years, overpaying for far too many talents. So I'm pretty relaxed if they're not being pushed into a situation now where...

they might feel that they've overpaid. Okay, well, of course, it goes without saying, you can keep your eyes peeled to the Athletic for the very latest on this. If Manchester United do want him at training on Monday for the start of pre-season, then something's got to happen pretty quickly. So keep your eye on that. Also, if you've been keeping your eye on the Athletic, you will have seen Carl's latest shopping list dropped. Shopping for Ameren, this time midfielders.

It's an interesting situation this one, Carl, because we have spoken already about the fact that if United can get Mbembe through the door, it's then going to be about sales before they can go out and spend any more money. But if that does happen, it feels like the area they will spend will be midfield. It definitely feels like midfield and centre-forward will be the next two positions and then

Laurie will have to tell me if it's a wing back chase or a wide center back chase after that I think we've also spoken before about how if it's Kunya and Big Bry that means you are Man United in the shopping market for a Bruno Fernandes partner which slightly changes things where last summer I think we were talking about perhaps looking for a main new partner so got in the lab talked to Mark Carey in our data team we've created a brand new sort of

pizza slice graphic using athletic data and one thing we really wanted to illustrate is how defensive midfielders or box-to-box midfielders there's two main sort of defending styles you can have here

Mano Ogata is what we call a back foot defender he is most comfortable or most talented where he is doing his defending and doing his tackling when retreating so if you can imagine the other team is steaming forward and you're on your bike he's the one who's making that sort of standing tackle to nip the ball around and turn the momentum whereas I think United probably want to get a midfielder who's more talented at front foot defending so pushing up

helping United stay in the opposition's half, being the one to make the standing tackle as you're pressing higher up. Particularly if you've got a striker, Kunja, Big Bry and Fernandes who are going to be flooding forward. You want to sort of keep the thumb on the scale. You want a midfielder who can do that one rather than someone who is cleaning things up when everything's gone past you there. So had a look at a bunch of data, had a bunch of names come out and...

A lot of them are probably a little bit too expensive for Manchester United, but we're still working. We're still working to find some really, really interesting players around Europe. I mean, I've been writing about Manchester United needing a central midfielder for five years now. And the rest. As long as I've known you, I think. Yeah, I've been yelling about it in the pub since Michael Carrick hung up his boots. So here we go again. Yeah, here we go again indeed. You mentioned Ugarte there, Karl. I mean, Andy, why do you think it's not...

Yeah.

Because he had a 6 out of 10 season rather than an 8 out of 10 season. There were games towards the end of the season, big games towards the end of the season, where he gave the ball away too much. If I think of the game in Bilbao in the first half, I was pretty alarming watching that. And that was a couple of days after I'd interviewed him as well. And I'm thinking, what a really nice, switched-on lad. Totally wanted to come to Manchester United. Said absolutely everything that you would hope that he would say.

But he polarised his opinion. He's been hit and miss and struggled to adapt well to a new league. It's a very difficult position to play in the Premier League. I was told numerous times that his attitude, his work rate and his determination were all good. But it will be interesting to see what his future looks like. Is he good enough? Can he keep his place in the team? He's still quite young. He has adapted quite well.

to wherever he's been. He moved to... He started out really young in Uruguay. He moved to Portugal when he was young. He went to PSG. He's not been a failure at any of these places. But Amorim's view on the player is key. He knows him. He worked well for him at Sporting. But I'm wavering in my voice because I'm not thinking this is Roy Keane coming next. I hope it works out for him. And he's still very young, but...

If you're playing in such a huge position, you've got to raise your levels. And he did have some good games. He did. You need seven out of ten good games, not five out of ten good games. If United get the attacking players they want, I think Ugarte is going to become a...

special use or special fixture style of football player for United. I think it was really telling that when United were a goal down, Amirin would take off Ugarte and drop Fernandes deeper because that's how he wanted to get the ball into the opposition half quicker. I think it was also telling Ugarte didn't feature in the Europa League final as well because that felt a little bit to me like Amirin wanted to win that game in 90 minutes. That was a real slap in the face for him though, wasn't it really? To miss out completely on that final.

I can absolutely feel, yeah, I can see why he might feel aggrieved. But there are definitely going to be fixtures in the Premier League next season where you want Ugarte next to Fernandes and Ugarte just being a pit bull, bulldog, however you want to describe it, fighting people. I can see what match they want. You're up against Arsenal. Arsenal's steaming forward. You might want someone who's just clattering into people without getting booked. It'll get booked. Yeah.

I guarantee you that now. That's a problem. And there was one criticism I heard quite early on. He's too safe.

In his passing? For that position, in his passing. Right. I heard that three months in. It's not his natural talent, Carl, is it? His progressive passing? If you look at the opening fixtures, there are some that are more Ugarte-friendly. So Arsenal is more Ugarte-friendly than, say, playing against Burnley, where he will likely have the ball a bit more and then be asked to break down the opposition, or contribute to breaking down the opposition defence a bit more. This is not to say he's bad, I just think...

a different kind of player can help. And also because we've got, I mean, anyone who's going to be playing in that central midfield position next to Fernandes is going to be doing the running of, you're running 13 kilometers per

pretty much every single game. It's good to have multiple options in that position and not just Ugarte. Casemiro is going to be doing a lot of running. Main is going to be a really interesting situation. I'm going to be really interested to see how he performs over pre-season. Toby Collier, we know he can run. Can he do the passing as well? Sekou Kone is in the academy. He's my pre-season one to watch because I've not seen enough of him yet. I want to see how his passing sort of scales up against...

more adult grown defences as well. So there are bodies in United right now, but there's perhaps a sort of

Adam Walton shaped hole. You've said it. I mean, teaser spoiler alert. Um, his name is mentioned in the article shopping for midfielders amongst others. Go and have a look at that. And we'll also talk more about Manchester United's midfield on our first video on YouTube, where we make a squad assessment. That'll be out next week. Just before we talk about something else other than transfers, Laurie, we've had a question from Jaco, um,

Can you explain the Alvaro Correa situation or Alvaro Fernandez for people who've been following his career at Manchester United and since? If United have a buyback option for under £20 million, would it not make sense to exercise it?

What do you know about this? We've talked a little bit about it on the podcast, but there's maybe some new detail. Yeah, I don't know if they mean exercise it as in bringing him back into the squad as a player. Well, no, I just mean have him, keep him. That was the proposal, wasn't it? That could United buy him back and then sell him to Real Madrid and make more money that way. I mean, they're not going to do that. I think that would...

really upset Benfica right you know they've sold them this player in good faith and then to kind of do this you know kind of mechanism to take away money from their pocket people have done it

Yeah, I know, but I don't know. United aren't going to do it from what I can tell. But I do think Real Madrid, from what my Spanish colleagues tell me, are very much in for him. I think it was pretty close, to be honest. €50m deal. It's just that both clubs wanted to get the Club World Cup out of the way, particularly Benfica. So, yeah, let's see if that now picks up once the tournament is over. Because United do have...

a 20% sell-on. So would that negate this idea that they could have made money by buying him back and then selling him to Real Madrid? Obviously, that would have been probably more money, but it's 20% over the kind of €6 million price that Benfica paid for him. So I think that comes down to about €7 million ultimately, something like that, which is, you know, you put that together, then you're sort of hearing these stories of Anthony Alanga.

being the subject of interest and bids from Newcastle for example United have got a sell on clause with him there's other players that have got sell on clauses for Mason Greenwood at Marseille being one of them so all knitted together those players could actually raise a decent little chunk of money for United that then would obviously perhaps allow them to buy more players after the Brian Mbumo hopeful deal um

But yeah, it's an interesting one to observe because I always thought that Alvaro was a player that could definitely make it at United and particularly in this wing-back system, he looks sort of right up for that because I think it was always the defensive side of his game that was a little bit questionable. But I actually spoke to Neil Wood who had him at United's under-21s and really loved him basically, played him every week and he thought that he would have been able to make it at United. He went on pre-season

when they went to America, when they went to Las Vegas and San Diego, they played Rex and he played in that game, but he didn't play any first team minutes. And I think he was a little bit upset about that. And that kind of was the writing on the wall there for his future at United. It doesn't look great, this, does it? If Real Madrid pay this much money for a player who Manchester United had...

If Newcastle United pay this much money for a Langer, a player who Manchester United had. These were players who were happy and settled at Manchester United and have been let go. And both departures were seen as good business for Manchester United. It was money in the bank. These were players who were classed as homegrown.

But if Real Madrid are going for your player and seeing something, why was no one at Manchester United seeing that in Alvaro? Because I also spoke to Neil Wood about him like you did, Laurie. And all I got back was an A-plus report. You know, as a professional, as a player, he did very well when he went on loan.

to Preston, where David Beckham had done well on loan. Neil told me a story how he went for a meal with his partner in Hale. Alvaro was in there. Neil came to pay the bill and it was paid for. Nice little touches. If he'd gone to Benfica and he establishes himself in Benfica's first team, as he did do, because he also went on loan to Spain. I think he went to Granada and did okay there. So you can understand why at the time Manchester United may have let him go.

But if he ends up establishing himself in a position where Manchester United have had issues for several years, that's not a great look.

They did look at him in January as well. Obviously, they had this buyback. So that was the idea of the deal, that if he did well, they could buy him back for a not too substantial fee. But ultimately, they went for Patrick D'Orgo instead, a newer player that they felt was more suited to the club. Let's see. Obviously, that will be proven correct or wrong in time. Yeah, OK. I'm sure we'll talk more about transfers in the weeks to come. There might even be a little flick more on this podcast a little bit later on where Marcus Rashford is concerned. But let's talk about something else.

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So Manchester United report back on Monday for the start of pre-season training. The majority of the players are back on Monday. A few of the players who've been involved in Summer Internationals will maybe get a few more days grace. There'll be a change though, I think,

for the under 18s Laurie Wonuck because Darren Fletcher is in talks to become the lead coach of that side will it be done in time do you think for Monday it's a very good question it's probably one that I should ask today given they are supposed to be flying to Germany on today Wednesday so I think they were in Monday Tuesday um

the under 18s were for kind of testing things like that. So the talks, as far as I'm aware, are expected to conclude in Darren Fletcher becoming the lead coach of the under 18s. Um, I think it's just the final details really. And yeah, interesting move, right? He's obviously had a few different responsibilities since he rejoined the club in 2020. I think it was, um, obviously as a under 16s coach initially, then a first team coach under Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, then technical director alongside football director, John Murtagh. Um,

And then that role kind of morphed, didn't it? When Solskjaer left and Ralph Ragnick was in interim charge, I think Fletcher stepped up to have to kind of

link a lot of different aspects of the club together and then he became a first team coach under Eric Ten Haag and then Ruben Amerin but this is an opportunity for him he was given the offer by Jason Wilcox director of football and Nick Cox the outgoing director of academy to replace Adam Lawrence who is stepping away from the role has stepped away from the role

And I think there was some perhaps debate about exactly whether he should do it or not. But I think ultimately this is a first step for him to becoming a number one, right? Like this is the time where you get to plan the sessions, you get to pick the team, whereas he's not been doing that before in his career. So he's got his UEFA A licence, I think the UEFA Pro licence will be next on the agenda. And ultimately a career in management is I think what he wants to do. But also he was

helping out the club here by taking on a vacancy and retaining that link with the heritage of United. I think a lot can be made of it and maybe too much at times, but equally, like with Jonny Evans and Darren Fletcher now, you've got two people here who've been through that system, who know what it takes to make it a United in a very brutal environment to win titles and

And I think it's a perfect role for him. And it's also good timing in the sense that his two twin boys are no longer in the 18s. So I think there's always this idea that if he stepped up previously, I think there was an opportunity to do this previously as well. You know, he'd then be kind of picking them or not picking them and would something be read into it, you know, perceptions or everything. And so anyway, they're both...

They would read a lot into it if one was picked and one wasn't. Yeah, no, for sure. That's a good point. And certainly the outside world as well. So anyway, they've moved on. They obviously were in the under-18s last season in that FA Youth Cup team that made the semi-finals. And now, yeah, Darren Fletcher will be...

If talks all go as expected, picking the team and running sessions. With Colin Little, who we had on the podcast assisting him still. Travis Binion, who oversees the coaching and performance of the academy set up. So there's still key figures that are there. But yeah, Fletcher moving into the under-18s I think is an interesting development. Andy, it was a question posed by Mark in the comments to the article that Laurie wrote on The Athletic about this move for Fletcher.

you're sort of asking, is this definitely not a demotion? Because in some ways on the face of it, being a technical director, being a first team coach and much more senior roles are

than the coach of the under-18s. What do you think? I think the first team will miss him. I think he's excellent. I think if he didn't keep knocking twins out, he would have moved into being a manager earlier on. But because he had a second set of twins, he wasn't able just to go and take a job. In Sunderland, for example, he was routed to Manchester earlier

My opinion of him is a very, very high one. I think the way he reads the game, the way he talks, quite apart from the fact that he did all those things which Laurie said. And I think the first team will miss him. I think that the staff around Ruben Amorim are relatively inexperienced. And there were times last season where Darren Fletcher was a calming voice in that dressing room, along with Bruno Fernandes, during some of Manchester United's worst defeats of last season. He was there.

I think he reads the game exceptionally well. And yet, if he wants to be a coach and start picking his own team and move on up, I know he's got a big, big passion for player development. It's an area that he's got a lot of expertise in. He was, as Laurie said, he's been in several different roles where people are like, what exactly is he doing? Everything, it sounded like. Yeah, yeah, he has been. I'm glad he's staying at Manchester United.

Because a lot of people are getting job offers to leave Manchester United at every level. I'm glad he's staying. I think the point to make is that he could have stayed with the first team if he'd wanted to. That was still an opportunity for him. Because I think I understand why people would see it as a demotion. But this is not Amarim forcing him out. No, no. This is not it. It is a...

a recalibration maybe of, you know, Fletcher. I think probably the technical director role, you know, did take people by surprise, right? It's kind of one that really you work towards over several years and, you know, the qualifications are there and he obviously has huge amounts of expertise and intelligence and experience. But I think,

a coaching role is really where he's best at. And that's obviously where he then gravitated towards in that period. And now this is an opportunity. The vacancy became available, gets offered it. It's that link, an important point for a lot of players where they're turning 18, they're trying to push on to the first team. He's still going to have that relationship with the first team. But I agree with Andy, I think it is a loss to the first team, but equally important.

the academy is an important part of United and even more so it feels like with the new regime coming in they are obviously spending quite a bit of money on those younger age groups and having the right people around them to bring them on into the first team as hoped is important. Fundamentally Carl as well I think having a former Manchester United academy graduate in a role that benefits directly the Manchester United academy now is a good thing. I don't think that it would be

the same to have everyone coming from outside the club because there's been so many changes already and you feel like maybe the I know it's overplayed maybe it's maybe over talked about but that Manchester United DNA for want of a less wanky term um it's still really really important for the bones of the club I agree it's important during the many jobs Fletcher has had at United already it

part way through his time as the technical director he seemed to make it one of his areas of focus of that sort of academy player just breaking to the first team making sure that player was looked after handing over shall we describe it godfatherly advice

on the things that only really former pros can tell young pros what they need to do. So, you know, tiny stuff like when you get to an away, when you're doing an away day, you want to aim for this hotel room and do this sort of thing in hotel where you prep. Fletcher was good at handing over that piece of advice and he's built upon that now with his coaching qualifications. So it just seems like he's just doing more of

an area of interest and expertise that he's built steadily over those years and that can only be a benefit to the under 18s

It's a good under-18 crop coming through as well, so I think that will be really useful too. He's walking into a pretty good situation and he has a lot to offer. You might get another day at an FA Youth Cup final before long, you never know. Record podcasts that don't quite record. Andy, it's not the only change behind the scenes still. There's still more, isn't there? There's loads of changes at every level. If you look at the club structure, there's probably six levels combined.

going from the senior leadership team and the executive level that has almost changed like 90% change now but even the level below that and I know for a fact that people on the football side are getting offers to move and leave Manchester United some of them take the offers some of them don't take the offers Nick Cox took the offer to move to Everton for example

But there is a struggle to keep members of staff because Manchester United may not be the club or team that they were, but it is still a seal of approval. There are still a lot of really good people at the club and others in football know that and they're offering them jobs and it's a competitive job market. So I think we will see more changes. I think we will see more departures and I hope we don't see too many departures.

at every level on the football side and also on the club side. I mean, it's just been a year and a half of this now. It's got to stop at some point. Yeah, this season was supposed to be the point where it stopped and things settled down. So let's hope that is the case. And the season starts in some ways on Monday, doesn't it, with that pre-season beginning for the first team. David Ornstein, Kyle,

Had a story yesterday, I think it was, that Marcus Rashford intends to report for pre-season training on Monday, which is expected. Exactly how that looks will be an interesting thing to find out. But within the detail of the story, it sounds like Marcus is prioritising a move abroad this summer. There's been a story in Germany about Bayern Munich being interested. The club want a sale, but Rashford would be open to a loan move or even a swap deal. So interesting.

It's going to be one of the scenarios to keep an eye on from Monday onwards, isn't it? Absolutely. I know we've had two or three questions or emails saying, could Marcus Rashford work as a number nine player?

ahead of Cunha and Big Bright and it seems unlikely that he'll be wearing a Man United shirt come August 17th and it appears to be some sort of loan deal elsewhere this is probably a situation that will take a while to figure out because Marcus Rashford's wages are so big there are

So the handful of clubs that can afford to pay his wages or more than 50% of his wages tend to be quite well stocked in that left-sided attacking role. Or they tend to have another quite expensive number nine. So this would be a situation that will run and run and run. It is this really weird case in that there's four or five players that you can either... I mean, we used to call it the bomb squad. I think the French call it the loft squad.

but the players who aren't necessarily in the head coach's plans for the rest of the season. So it'll be interesting to see if Rashid and others will be training separately or if they'll be allowed in with Amarin. Yeah, it's a challenge for Ruben Amarin, no doubt. There's Jadon Sancho, there's Anthony, there's Tyrell Malasia. There's probably more that I've not mentioned as well. The first pre-season game is only a couple of weeks away.

And obviously then the tour to the USA after that. So, you know, that's certainly a scenario to keep an eye on. Andy, when the players are back from that tour of the USA, there's going to be a new training ground facility for them to take advantage of. I'm told it's on track. I'm told it will be ready for when the players return ahead of the new season. The next couple of weeks are going to be used for training

staff to get used to the new facilities and sort a few final details out on that as well and Jason's been asking about it he said what's the story with the new training ground facilities how do the club expect that they will improve the team and do they have new machines that make you a better football team let's hope so yeah they start winning every week from now on just because they've got new a new changing room to change no I did say to Omar Barada when

when's a new Carrington up and running? And his reply was August. It's amazing and the architects have done an incredible job. It will be a modern elite performance facility. We're going to be looking to move more people from Old Trafford to Carrington to create a sense of togetherness and unity. And then of course, we haven't talked so much about the stadium project, blah, blah, blah. That's just a bit about the stadium. So yeah, they spent a lot of money on it. They've appointed top,

best-in-class architects to do it. I thought it was a decent training ground anyway. It's going to be even better. It was more of an issue last season when teams were training and going back to changing port-a-cabins. When I met Jim Ratcliffe, it was in a portable building. This is not ideal, especially when Ineos came in and spoke about this open plan idea of togetherness, of sharing ideas. The reality was

that you had Ruben and his team hunkering down in these small little buildings and there was very little mixing going on. So I think it will be a big, big positive. It basically means when United play City, we're going to win 4-0. That's great. I look forward to it. We'll talk more about that when the team are in that new facility. But that's it for Talk of the Devils.

It's been great to do it again. Andy, Carl and Laurie, thank you very much. Just a reminder to everyone, we've got a new look and we're also launching on YouTube. Our first video will be up next week. There's a link in the show description to subscribe to that or you can search TOT Devils Podcast.

on YouTube. We've also got an Instagram page and a TikTok account as well. The same handles, TOT Devils on both of those apps. So go and have a look at that. And thank you. Thanks for all your support. Without you, we wouldn't have been able to get to the point where we're able to do this sort of thing. So thank you to every single one of you and I hope you enjoy. It's going to be the same. Don't worry. There'll still be posts

match records where we share our pain or savor the enjoyment of what we've just seen together. There'll also be, of course, the same terrible tired banter, but you'll just see our faces when we talk about such things. So don't worry. It's not changing completely. It's just a little bit of a switch up for the future. So go and have a look at YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok. And thank you as always for your support. And thanks for listening. We'll see you on the next one. Take care. Bye-bye. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

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