Dr. Judith Joseph | Overcome Your Hidden Depression and Reclaim Your Joy
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Welcome to the Talks at Google podcast, where great minds meet. I'm Emma, bringing you this episode with Dr. Judith Joseph, board-certified psychiatrist, researcher, and award-winning content creator. Talks at Google brings the world's most influential thinkers, creators, makers, and doers all to one place. You can watch every episode at youtube.com slash talks at google.

Dr. Judith Joseph joins Google to discuss her book, High Functioning: Overcome Your Hidden Depression and Reclaim Your Joy. Dr. Joseph draws on original research, client cases, and her own personal struggle with high-functioning depression to demystify this poorly understood condition. Her five simple tools, the five Vs, will help you understand the science of your happiness and empower you to reclaim your life and joy.

Dr. Joseph is the chair of the Women in Medicine Initiative at Columbia University, a clinical assistant professor in child and adolescent psychiatry at NYU, and principal investigator at Manhattan Behavioral Medicine. She was awarded with the Congress Proclamation Award by the U.S. House of Representatives in 2023 for her social media advocacy and mental health research.

In 2024, she taught a workplace mental health course to the executive office of the President of the United States. She uses her platform of over 1 million followers to educate her community about mental health topics. She also trains doctors at NYU about how to use various forms of media to educate the public about mental health issues. Here is Dr. Judith Joseph. Overcome your hidden depression and reclaim your joy.

Welcome to this Talks at Google event. I'm Lana Garrett. How are you guys? That's good. That's good enough for now. And I'm on the YouTube mental health team. I'm a strategic partner manager. And I am so excited because today is the first day of Mental Health Awareness Month in May. So yeah, woo! We can woo for that. Woo for mental health. So before we get started, I want to remind the audience that we'll be taking questions at the end of this talk.

And I also want to remind everyone today that we'll be talking about mental health, which is sometimes very, very tough to talk about. And as a disclaimer, we will discuss a couple of topics that might be triggering. So please do whatever it is you need to do to feel emotionally safe and comfortable, like logging out of the stream, stepping out of the room. For additional resources, you can text 988. That's available to anybody in the U.S. who needs support at the moment for mental health.

So we thank you in advance for attending and being here with us. I also want to remind everyone that while Dr. Judith is a psychiatrist, she is not able to diagnose or discuss clinical matters with folks who are not her patients. So I'm very excited today to talk with my guest, Dr. Judith Joseph. So first, I'm going to ask you, how are you?

I'm great. I'm so happy to be here and see so many people excited about mental health. Yeah. Okay. That's good. I'm excited to be here with you, of course. Of course. Just so you know, I reached out to Dr. Judith like a year ago and I was like, hey, I work at YouTube. Do you want to learn about YouTube? And she said yes. And we've been connected ever since. And now she's officially one of my creators. So I'm so happy she's here and how far she's come on YouTube and just with her amazing books. So I'm excited to get into some questions.

So, Dr. Judith, could you elaborate on what you mean by high functioning in the context of mental health? Yeah, so I'm a researcher and in my lab in Midtown Manhattan, when I study major depressive disorder or as most people know, clinical depression.

We go down the symptoms of depression. And so things like low mood, something called anhedonia, which means a lack of pleasure, joy, interest in things that used to really excite you. And other things like changes in your sleep, changes in your appetite, your energy. All of these symptoms have to be met in order to meet a diagnostic criteria of major depression.

or clinical depression. But at the very end of that checklist, if you don't meet the last box, which is you break down or you lose functioning or you're in really great or significant distress,

then you don't meet criteria for depression. And what I was finding was that I kept seeing a lot of people, especially after 2020, having all those check boxes except the last box. They were actually over-functioning. They were actually showing up for others. They were the rock. They were the entrepreneur. They were the ones that don't break down. In fact, they stay busy as a way of coping.

So there's all these people out there who are showing up, they're going to work, they're being everyday people, but they're not getting support because they haven't broken down. So it just led me to thinking, huh, I wonder how many people out there are struggling with this and they're not talking about it because there really isn't anything out there for them. So I started creating content.

And I thought maybe like 100 or 200 people would reach out. It was like overwhelming. My video on high-functioning depression was seen over 20 million times around the world. And I had therapists reaching out saying, this is what I see in my practice every day, but we just don't have a term for it. So I set out to do the research. And it's important to do research, Lana, because if something that you're experiencing isn't validated by the science...

then it's really hard to make a claim for creating supports, treatments, anything, resources for that condition or for that experience. So doing this research was a labor of love. And I thought it was so important to validate people's experiences so that they felt seen, so they felt as if there's a name, there's a term for what they're experiencing.

I bet, well, I can at least raise my hand and say I probably check all those boxes except for the last one that I essentially will overwork, you know, during that time. And I'm pretty sure a lot of, well, I'm not going to speak for them, but maybe a lot of people in the audience probably also feel that same way. So what's the difference between high functioning and burnout? It's a great question and one that I set out to really uncover because what I've been

What I found, especially in my industry as a healthcare professional, is that people feel more comfortable with the term burnout. Like if you walk into a party or a happy hour and you say, I'm burnt out, your friends will say, me too. But if you walk into a party and you're like, I'm depressed, people are like, oh. I would say me too. Yeah.

Me too? That's great that you can, but I'm telling you, it makes people feel so uncomfortable. So I thought, okay, let me see if I can find the difference in my research. And what I found was that there's a high correlation between unresolved past pain, unresolved past trauma, and

and high functioning depression. And I've done a ton of PTSD studies in my lab. One of the symptoms of trauma is avoidance. So people will avoid places, situations,

people that trigger them. But folks with high functioning depression, they avoid things by busying themselves. So burnout is by definition a workplace phenomenon. And it was only recently that it was included in the medical literature. Burnout is something that happens when you have these symptoms of exhaustion, lack of motivation, fatigue, irritability related to the workplace.

So technically, when you remove that person from the workplace, they get better. Their symptoms improve. High-functioning depression is not related to the workplace. When you move folks from the workplace, they will still find a way to stay busy. They'll get a side hustle. They'll clean out their garage on the weekend. They'll take on someone else's project. They'll busy themselves with their kids' stuff, with their family members.

So think burnout is the environment causing the symptoms. High-functioning depression is something within the individual that leads them to stay busy. So even if you remove them out of the situation, they still can't sit still. When I talk to my patients and my clients with high-functioning depression or people who I meet on the road, I'll ask them, you know, when you sit still, do you feel restless? When you're not busy, do you feel empty? And they're like,

Yeah. And then I ask about anhedonia, which is a lack of pleasure and interest. And they'll be like, you know, I knew that was something. I knew something was off. I just didn't know there was a term for it. But anhedonia is another term that's gone viral that I've been talking about. It's been something in the literature and in the science for over 100 years, but people don't even know that it exists. So giving a label, giving a name to these experiences is not just validating

There's a term in psychology called affect labeling. If you give people a name, a term for what they're experiencing, what happens is that that is therapeutic in itself. It decreases the amount of uncertainty. They know what they're dealing with. And it also takes away the shame and blame, right? Because it's like, oh, there's something for what I'm experiencing. It's not me. It's not my fault. And now I know what to do about it. And I liken it to, let's say, if you were in a dark room

and you heard a really loud crash, right? Some of us would start swinging, some of us would start running, some would start screaming. But if you turn that light on and you saw, oh, it was like a vase or an inanimate object that fell, you're like, oh, I'm safe. I know what to do. It's the same for when you can label what you're experiencing. If you know it's anhedonia, if you know it's high-functioning depression, if you know it's burnout, right? You know what to do, you know what you're working with, and then you can start planning. It's less uncertain.

OK, I love that. I love giving a name to something so you can feel a little bit more certain and feel a little bit more safe with what's happening. And I think the room example is just so powerful because when I hear something crash in the room, I do start swinging. So thank you. Me too. So.

You kind of talked a little bit about some key indicators, but could you discuss some maybe less obvious ones that someone who is appearing high functioning while facing, you know, some kind of mental health challenge? Yeah, a lot of people will wake up before their alarm because they don't realize that in mental health, like over 30, 40 years ago, people were really strong about feeling as if depression was separate, anxiety was separate. But we know that

Anxiety and depression are like kind of one side of the same coin. So one of the symptoms in depression research that we use to measure whether or not you're getting better or worse is your level of stress. And you would think, well, isn't that anxiety? Think about it. If you've ever been stressed, it's so hard to access joy when you're stressed. I don't know very many people who can still be joyful when they're stressed out, right?

Because the two are so closely tied. So a lot of folks tend to have a hard time relaxing and they'll wake up before their alarm. And instead of being able to sit still, it's called psychomotor agitation, which is a terrible word. But in mental health, we use these really long words that no one can relate to. But it's like in a restlessness, like you can't sit still.

Another term which I'll keep talking about because I just want to bring about so much awareness about is anhedonia, right? Because people think that depression looks like sad and weepy and not getting out of bed. Yes, that is one form, but there are many faces of depression. So that meh, that blah, that lack of interest.

That, oh, when I used to eat my food, I used to really enjoy it. But now it's like, meh, right? Or when I used to watch this movie that I love, I used to really be engaged. But now I'm like, oh, I have to rewind it. I miss that, you know? When you're with your friends and you used to really connect and look forward to it, now you're dreading it. You're looking at your watch like, when is this going to be over?

And when I think about explaining this, think about the basic joys in life. You know, people, when they come to my private practice, because I have a private practice and I have a research lab, the private practice patients will say, "Oh, Dr. Judith, I just want to be happy." So I'll say, "Well, what does happiness mean to you?" And many times people will start listing off things like, "When I finally get that career, when I finally get that house, when I pay off my debt, when I finally have kids." It's always like this event, you know, this thing.

But in the research lab, when we measure happiness, we're measuring up points of joy. So things like when I took a nap, did I feel rested? When I ate my food, did I savor it? Was it yummy? When I was lonely and I reached out to a friend, did I feel loved and connected? When I was stressed, was I able to self-soothe? These are all points that we add up in the science. And if the points are adding up, we know you're getting happier.

But in the real world, we just want to be happy this event. So think happiness as an idea and joy as an experience. So if you're missing out on the basic experience of joy, then that's how you should know, right? All of these sensations that make up the plethora of being a human being, right? That's what we're missing out on. And sometimes it's because we're so busy out running some past pain

Other times we're busy because the world we live in is so different than the world 40 years ago. So there are many ways to lose our points of joy.

And it's a real reframe. And that's why it's so important that this research stays up to date, relevant and accessible to people. You know, what good is it if I write about it and no one reads that research literature? And that happens, unfortunately. We have to be able to use methods like platforms, relatable ways of explaining this so that people can understand it and apply tools that work.

So a lot of us here, well, most of us here are employees, we're Googlers, we're daughters, we're sons, we're friends. And there's people in our life who are probably high functioning or we're high functioning ourself. What tips or what role would you see if we know someone who's high functioning or we may not?

be and we're unaware. What tips might you give to someone to be able to, you know, help somebody who's struggling with that or help ourselves? It's a great question. You know, in my research study, and it's the very first and only study, so I hope there's more. But what we found was that

A lot of caregivers were experiencing higher rates of anhedonia. So caregivers who were identifying as having high functioning depression had higher rates of anhedonia. No surprise, right? We're talking about people who wear a mask of pathological productivity to hide what's happening, right? And what I've found is that a lot of folks, they develop this type of persona as being the people pleaser.

And in my book, I talk about something called masochistic personality disorder. It's a word that was taken out of the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for psychiatry. But basically, our Bible of psychiatry was taken out in the 80s because it was thought to be victim blaming because a lot of the terms...

And the terminology said that a lot of people were kind of inciting things to happen to them, which is problematic. But there are other things that I felt were helpful for us to understand. Why do some of us bend over backwards? Why do some of us give, give, give and have a hard time allowing others to help us? Why is that?

And what I found is that a lot of times with unresolved past pain and trauma, people feel unworthy. There are over 30 plus symptoms of trauma, but most people only know about hypervigilance, nightmares, you know, and avoidance.

But one of the symptoms of trauma is not feeling good enough. So what do you end up doing? You keep on bending over backwards for others. You keep on people pleasing. And it happens across all areas, at work, at home, with your friends. And so I want people to understand where this need to keep doing, even though you feel depleted,

Where does that come from? And when people understand that this is something that's unresolved and this is a behavior that has a background to it and a core to it, then they can start challenging it. And so what I would say is that for those in your life who tend to show up all the time, who don't want the help, who are the rock, who don't show that they're struggling,

Meet them at their basic needs. You know how I talked about the joy that people miss out on, that they leave on the table, all those points? Many times these are people who are not taking care of their bodies. They're eating foods that are highly processed,

And we know that these days, foods that nourish our brains are so important for happiness, right? These are people who are not getting rest. So don't wait for them to ask for help. Help them, you know? These are people who are not okay acknowledging when they're suffering. So you may have to mirror that for them. You know, the best thing that you can do to help others who are struggling, who don't want to acknowledge they're struggling, is to mirror what you want to see. So show vulnerability. Maybe start a conversation with...

You know, something happened to me the other day and it led me to feel this way. So what you're doing is you're mirroring talking about things that are negative emotions. And you're showing them that on a deeper unconscious level, you're okay with that. But at the end of the day, you cannot change others. We can only be in control of ourselves. So you can support others. You can show them that you're going to be there even if they're not doing for you. And you can mirror the change that you want to see.

So you're saying check in on your strong friend. Yes, especially checking on the strong friends, because the resources are not out there for the strong friends, right? And it's important to have resources for everyone. It's not a way of saying that one type of condition is more important than the other. It's a way of saying is that we want to prevent mental health breakdowns from happening. We're seeing in health care this renaissance, right? People are saying it would be

unheard of to say, "Let's wait for stage four cancer to treat it." We would be like, "Where do you go to medical school?" You know? Or, "Let's wait until the bone is broken to address osteoporosis." No. Longevity science now is saying, "Let's talk about menopause, perimenopause. Let's prevent these outcomes."

In mental health, we're still in the dark ages. We're still saying let's wait until that box is checked. I'm saying let's not wait. Let's educate people so they know the signs, so they know the risk factors, so that they can prevent this outcome that looks like a clinical depression or a substance use disorder or

a physical breakdown because you've been neglecting yourself so long, running yourself down into the ground. Yeah, you're saying prevention. Okay, so what about the people who are the strong friends and they're struggling with high functioning depression? What tips would you give them on how to either ask for help from their friends or family or, you know, their boss, their colleagues?

Yeah, that's why I developed the 5Vs methodology because I was that person. Like in 2020, I was running a lab, taking care of a small child,

My partner at the time was a frontline worker. And I was on TV and helping people. And I was just like, oh my gosh. I remember halfway through a discussion where I was giving a talk to a large health system, I was like, I think I'm depressed. And it surprised me. It snuck up on me. So I was like, if I'm a board-certified psychiatrist and a researcher and I study this and it still snuck up on me, this is happening to other people. So it led me to really go into the science of happiness because

Lana, there's only one you. There will only ever be one you. Think about that. The chances of us being here, they're just so small. So we're here for a reason. And when we think about the science of happiness, sometimes we will read a book or we'll look at a meme. We're like, well, I used this and it didn't work. It's because many of us don't even understand the science of our own happiness. And we're all so unique. So I wanted to make this work

accessible. And there's a tool in my book called the biopsychosocial model. And the way that I explain that tool is we all have a fingerprint, but all of our fingerprints are different and unique. We all have a biopsychosocial.

But they're all different and unique. So biologically, I'll use myself as an example. I have a high thyroid issue, and sometimes I need to work on that. So if I don't address my biological issues, I'm going to be unhappy, right? But other people may have medical issues that pull from their points of joy.

Psychologically, what are your past traumas? I have something called scarcity trauma. I came to this country when I was very young with very little. So I know that sometimes my high functioning and busyness is from this core fear of running out of resources. But others may have other types of trauma. They may have real personal traumas, attachment traumas. So understand your psychological history. Some people may have other conditions like ADHD and other mood disorders.

those may pull from your points of joy as well. And then socially, what are the factors in your current life? So are you living in a place where you have access to nature? Are you in a busy city? Are you in a job that maybe is too stressful or not supportive? Are you in relationships that are not supportive? Are you engaging in habits that are unhealthy, like excessive drinking or not moving or eating foods that are too processed? So the biopsychosocial is a really nice model that most doctors know about and that most patients have never heard of.

So I wanted to democratize that so everyone can draw their biopsychosocial. And whoever's in this room right now, there's actually a biopsychosocial in your lab manual. And it looks like this. It's a Venn diagram. Oh, that's how you spell it. Yes. Wow. That's a long term. That's a long word. I was spelling it out in my head. But the reason that I hand these out is because I'll have clients in my office literally drawing their own biopsychosocial. Again, it's like a fingerprint. We all have one, but they're all unique.

And that way you can see where you're losing your points of joy. So then you know where to add back your points of joy. And once you understand your biopsychosocial, I have the 5V methodology, which is the flip side of that. And the reason I use the number five is because, Lana, I've traveled to over 30 countries trying to understand health care.

And I ask, everywhere I go, I ask people to hold up their hand and to imagine that joy is built into your DNA. It is your birthright as a human being to have joy, but we lose it. Even you go to some of the countries where people don't even have running water, you'll still find joy. Why? It is essential for survival, right? So if you're feeling stuck or empty or you've lost joy,

Imagine that you look at your hand and say, I have joy in my DNA. I'm going to reclaim it using the five E's. And five is a number that I see across all cultures. I think it's because most people have five fingers. Some don't, but generally five is across all cultures. So

The first V is validation. And I start with this one because it's the hardest V, right? Because many of us push down our pain. We don't want to acknowledge when bad things happen. So we push it down. It's important to acknowledge and accept experiences and emotions. And that's when that light bulb goes on, right? And you're like, I know what I'm dealing with. So that anxiety goes down when you know what you're dealing with.

The second V is venting. Venting is expressing emotions. And I don't mean trauma dumping, right? I mean, venting with intention. So if you're going to verbally vent and you're going to talk to someone who's not a therapist, you want to check in and say, you know, is it okay if I talk with you now? Because sometimes people aren't ready. They're just not there. Yeah, they do a drive-by on you. So you want to ask for emotional consent and say, are you ready to talk?

And you want to vent with intention. You want to have a goal. Because the science shows that if you vent without intention and you're just trauma dumping, it's like pouring gasoline onto a fire. So you're making yourself feel worse. Venting doesn't have to be verbal. It can be through written form. So journaling is really powerful for those who are faith-based, praying,

for those who are artists, singing or painting or even moving your body. Venting in any way that feels authentic to you, just letting it out. And in my lab, when you come and visit, I'll demonstrate for you that we take a red balloon and we try to push it under a tank of water and what happens? It pops up. If you don't vent and let out air from that balloon, it'll pop up at work, you'll snap at somebody, or at home.

Or you'll cut someone off at a light when you're driving because the traffic sometimes is really challenging here. So you want to let go of that over time because venting in physics is releasing pressure from a system. In psychology, it's releasing negative emotions slowly over time.

And then the third V is values. There's a whole field of psychology called positive psychology where values are things that give us purpose and meaning in life. So think priceless, not price tags. Yeah.

But over time, many of us, especially those of us who are high functioning, we chase things that look good on the outside, but they don't necessarily make us feel full and fed spiritually, right? We feel empty and we just keep searching for more. You know, that idea of happiness, the goalpost keeps moving. So tap into things every day, if you can, that bring you true purpose and meaning. And I included a list of values here because sometimes...

In my practice, people have forgotten what values they had because over time things happen and you forget what gives you that sense of fullness and being fed. So there's a list of values in there. And you'll notice that there's a rock on your chair. And the reason that we put the rock there is because having symbolic things in mental health like rocks,

and pictures are really important in terms of symbolism, right? So being able to hold onto something that gives you purpose and meaning physically is a reminder for you. So I want you to look at that list of values and write one of those values on your rock, because we're going to ask you to do something later. And then...

The next V is vitals. So this is the mind-body connection, why it's so important to take care of your body because you only get one, right? There's only one of you. So I'm going to ask you to do something right here to demonstrate that. So the mind-body connection usually is shown through breathing, but I'm going to ask you to do several things to demonstrate the mind-body connection. So if you could just put your foot...

plant them squarely on the floor, put your hands onto your lap, and then close your eyes. And then what I want you to do is try to pay attention to the neck muscles. And just as some of us have tense muscles, you can relax your muscles. So really pay attention to those neck muscles, those shoulder muscles, and relax them. And then envision a really peaceful place, a really peaceful place where you felt at ease, where you were just in awe.

And I want you to slowly take a deep breath in through your nose and more slowly out of your mouth. We're going to do this two more times, so be very intentional about taking a deep breath in through your nose and then through your mouth even more slowly. So in and then out. And then again, in and then out. And keep your eyes closed and just imagine that peaceful place. And I want you to tell yourself, you don't have to say it verbally, I am worthy of joy. And now open your eyes. Okay, great. Now,

That was maybe a couple of seconds, but what that demonstrated was how powerful the mind-body connection is. Like, just for a couple of seconds, you were transported to another place, and you felt relaxed. And that's something all of us can do. Try telling your heart to stop beating. It's impossible. Try telling your brain to stop thinking.

It is virtually impossible, right? But we were built with the capacity to tell our lungs to be able to hold our breath. Why? Well, one of them is a survival tool because if we're plunged into water, we have to survive. Or if there are like noxious chemicals, we don't want to breathe them in. But the other thing is because it's a natural way for us to soothe. So it calms our fight or flight. Now, I know many of you are relaxed now, so I'm going to wake you up. I want you to...

Has anyone in here watched Wicked? Okay, good. So The Witch and Wicked, right? I cannot, never pronounce her name. Alphalba, right? Cynthia Erivo. Yeah, there we go. All right, so you know how she cackles? I want you to, on the count of three, I want you to let out your largest cackle, okay? One, two, three. Okay.

Wait, they don't know which is in here. I've got to do that again. One, two, three. Very good. All right, now this is it. I see somebody laughing back there. You crack it up. All right, so then let's try now with, let's pretend it's Christmas and let's do our best Santa. Okay, so put your hand on your belly and then I want you to do a one, two, three, a ho, ho, ho. Ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho. One more. Ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho.

Good. And then we'll do one more type. Okay. We'll do a silly giggle. Okay. So then hold your hands over your hand like this. Okay. Now I want you to turn to your side and start giggling. Okay. So like, how did you feel? I want somebody to vent. How did that feel? Fun? Silly? Another one?

Good, right? It's fun. Right. But I was also like, what are the people thinking that are walking by? It made me giggle more. So, yeah. So curious, right? And so it's important to know that things that we do with our bodies can literally change our mood within seconds. Again,

We were built with the DNA for joy. And that's why people can laugh, giggle. And there are many types of laughters. I bet many of you never even thought about that. There are so many different types of laughters. Because it is a way to express emotions. And it's a way to use your body.

to get rid of some of the tension that we feel. And it's silly. We don't even take the time to be silly and playful. And then other important parts of vitals are things like what we eat. And I talk about nutrition a lot because there's a whole field of nutritional psychiatry where the things that we eat that we put into our bodies can decrease the inflammation. So that can actually make us feel happier and allow our brains to release more chemicals that keep us less stressed. Things like certain movements. I'm from the Caribbean.

So if you're not into exercising, things like dancing can be very helpful. So in the Caribbean, we have carnival in Trinidad once a year, and we do this thing called Wayanen where we move our bodies like this. And I used to always wonder, like, why does that feel so good? It's because when we do that side-to-side movement,

Our right brain is talking to our left brain. And that type of bilateral stimulation actually feels healing. So you can do whatever feels authentic to you. I see somebody whining there. You know, movement really helps. That's why, again, you know, sometimes when we're at our desks, it's really difficult to move. And I'll show you how you can do that once we walk over to the workstation. But getting that movement in is a natural way to release joy.

Other things we don't think about in terms of our vital signs is our relationship with technology. And we need technology to work. We need it for our jobs. But there are certain things that we can do to decrease the tension when we're using technology. Like there's a term called the "autoscopic phenomenon," where

in mental health with certain conditions, people have a lot of stress when they see their faces because many times people who have psychotic symptoms like hallucinations, they'll see themselves across the room and they'll get really, really angst and really anxious.

But what we do when we're seeing ourselves all the time is we're making ourselves anxious because we weren't made to look at ourselves all the time. Like if I saw my face next to you right now, I'd be like looking at whether or not my eyebrows were on right, like my hair was going okay, right? You look great. Thanks. But when we see ourselves too much, it can actually cause stress for us unnecessarily. So being mindful of how technology impacts us.

and using tech wisely because we need it, but we can also have a more healthy relationship with our technology.

And things like people. I put that in vitals because many times when we go to our doctor's offices, they're not asking us about our relationships. They're not saying, oh, like, so how are your relationships? Are you with someone toxic right now? Like, they don't have time for that. It's like 15 minutes, right, in and out. But the science is showing us that the quality of our relationships are really important for long-term health. And other things in there in the vital section to support our body are in that vitals. And then the last thing, my favorite, is vision. Mm-hmm.

How do you plan joy? For us busy folks, if we don't plan it, it's not going to happen. If it's not on our Google calendar, it's not happening. Yep, life dictates by Google calendar. Right. So plan your joy, you know, and it doesn't have to be something grand. It could be celebrating a win, like after this talk.

Telling yourself, I am so grateful to myself for taking the time. I didn't have to be here. I could have stayed at my desk and continued doing some more projects. But I took time out of my busy day to be curious about the science of my happiness, to invest in my joy. Celebrating the small wins. One small win that I do every day is when I get my daughter to school on time, I will sit

in my living room and I will have my fancy Caribbean coffee. It's like this rum flavored, it has no rum in it, but it is rum flavor. It takes me back to the islands and I just sit and I'm like, oh, I got her to school on time. I did a good job. She didn't walk up looking like who shot John. Like her hair was combed, her homework was done. Everything was great. And I celebrate that every day. But

But for your win, it could be something else. It could be a win that, you know, you didn't get frustrated at someone who really always presses your buttons. You decided to let them, as my friend Mel Robbins would say, right? You walked away and you were like, all right, I'm good. You know, I'm going to focus on things that I can control. So, you know, celebrate those small wins because you are precious and you

When you celebrate your wins first and you don't look for that external validation, it just buoys your confidence. It shows you that you are enough. But definitely plan joy. If it's not in my calendar, it won't happen. So I'll literally sit with my clients and then have them plan joy in front of me. And those are the five E's. They're evidence-based. I don't recommend doing all of them at once.

I would say pick one or two to tap into. And the idea is that you're getting a point or two of joy today, right? So if you didn't get any today, you can get a point tomorrow. It's within reach. It's doable. Versus I just want to be happy, which is holding your breath for the one event to happen. That may never happen. And even if it does happen, you may still not be happy. Yeah.

So what I'm hearing is we should all have impromptu dance parties, first of all, throughout the day at work. I have to put that on the Google calendar and invite everybody here. But two, I do want to touch on something that Dr. Judith said, which is I do want to take three seconds and have you all celebrate yourselves for taking time out to take care of your mental health to come here for the talk. So celebrate yourself for five seconds. I will allow it. Come on. Yes. Yes.

You're all so wonderful. You're so good. Look at you. You're one step closer. Okay. So, Dr. Judith, I've heard you mention a term that said pathologically productive.

What do you mean by that term of being pathologically productive? Well, you know, that mask of pathological productivity is one that we get rewarded for. If we are busy and we're missing out on joy, you know, a lot of times we'll get that pat on the back and that raise, but we still feel empty. So I want people to realize that, again, one of the points of joy that we leave on the table is being able to be calm and self-soothe and not be anxious and be

What happens is that because we're out running something that's not resolved, we're just busying ourselves to feel full, but it's never enough. You know, that second project, that third project, these things that happen, it's never enough. And it may feel very uncomfortable to sit still, but it is an important step. If you're not able to sit still and to ground yourself, then it's really hard to access joy. It's really hard to be joyful when you're stressed.

when you're constantly moving, right? We don't even think about that. And one of the tools in my book, and I hope you utilize it, is a grounding technique called the 5-4-3-2-1 method. And it allows you to really focus on one thing. And I'll demonstrate it over there in that area, but it's so powerful. Again, just how we were able to sit and focus on our breath and stay still and present.

and it didn't really take that much effort, that 5-4-3-2-1 allows you to just sit still no matter what's going on in the world.

And it's important. Joy is a resistance. You know, people used to say like, oh, if you talk about joy when there's all this conflict, isn't that toxic like positivity? And I said, I have traveled to over 30 countries. And I'm telling you, people who are going through it, they can still access joy. There's a reason we have dopamine in our brains. It is a survival tool. It is a form of resistance. Do people have questions for Dr. Judith about?

before we get started. So if you do have a question, you can come up to the mic on either side and ask a question to her. I do want to make you aware, please don't, again, she's not your doctor. She's not a psychiatrist that can diagnose you unless you pay her or become part of her, one of her clients. So please keep your personal information personal, but please get up and ask questions. Hi. Hi, doctor. Thank you so much for your time and your wonderful energy.

I definitely am high functioning, you know, in everything. So I'm wondering...

How do we ground ourselves or how do we reparent ourselves, talk to ourselves when we know that that to-do list is there and it'll just feel so much better to take care of the to-do list as opposed to taking a moment and like grounding? And maybe a second part of that question is, which is something I struggle with, I'm sure a lot of us do. How do we communicate to the people around us that despite the fact that we are high functioning and strong, we also need to be checked in on?

And I find that to be incredibly difficult. And my friends that are similar find it to be incredibly difficult. So how do we ask for that? That's a really good question.

I think that, first of all, it's really difficult to set boundaries when you feel guilty, which is a very common feeling when you're used to being a people pleaser. I am guilty of it myself, no pun intended. But I think understanding that you're going to have to pass through that discomfort and be able to sit with it is OK. Two things can be true.

You can radically accept that I'm going to need to set these boundaries and I'm also going to feel bad about it. I think that that's the thing that people forget or they don't even know because when you see these memes like, I need to protect my peace, it's like, well, yeah, but protecting your peace doesn't feel great. You need it to feel unhappy and uncomfortable before it starts feeling good. But it does eventually feel good. You just have to be able to sit with it.

And that tool that I was talking about, I'm just going to demonstrate it for you now because whenever I have a hard decision to make and I'm feeling guilty about it, I will sit with this feeling and I'll just practice this grounding tool. And I usually use a beverage, but water doesn't really have a lot of fragrances, but we're going to do it with the water. So I'll sit and if I'm feeling restless about a decision, I'll just focus on this one thing.

And I'll ground myself. And many times when you're setting boundaries, you feel that fight or flight because it's a defense. You're revved up because it's a defense mechanism because you feel so bad about it. But you'll be able to get through it. And it takes time. But you can retrain your brain.

And I'll look at that water and I'll list five things I can see. So I'm going to describe it. I see the flickering of the light. I see the movement of the water. I see my nails. I see the glass and I see the reflection of the red pant. Four things I can feel. I feel the cool temperature. I feel the hardness. I feel my hands. I feel the firm ground under me. Three things I can hear. There's a loud air conditioning. If I swish around the water, I can hear that. I hear my breathing. Two things I can smell.

I smell my fragrance. The water is minerally. And one thing I can taste. And if you're doing this type of grounding tool, you're not thinking about disappointing someone. You're staying present. You're showing yourself that you can actually train your brain to stay focused on one thing, even though there's conflict around you.

So grounding yourself before a difficult conversation and after a difficult conversation can be very powerful because you're showing yourself that you can regulate these emotions to face these very difficult situations. And over time as you do this, it won't happen immediately, over time you start to feel more comfortable setting these boundaries.

You're welcome. Thank you. So we're going to take one more here and then I forgot there's online questions and then I'll jump over there. So go ahead. Yes. Thank you, Dr. Doolith. Your research is really, truly fascinating. I was wondering if you can articulate some more context behind this diamond diagram around high functioning values. It seems to go against the ladder. So I was wondering if you can shed some light on that.

I'm so glad you're reading the lab manual. So, you know, when I was looking at this diagram, I was thinking of the hierarchy of needs, you know, and how we all have our basic needs that need to be met. And I thought, well, how come no one teaches us about values?

And what I found is that I've been practicing for many years in Manhattan, and I see people who are very, very, very wealthy versus people who are extreme, people who have a lot of poverty, have nothing. So I see this like huge range of folks. And it doesn't matter where you're from in life. There are superficial things that people chase, no matter who you are, you know? So when you look at this, it's almost like an opposite. If you think about the horizon, it's like a direct...

reflection, I thought about things in terms of lower level values versus higher level values. So think about transcendence versus being somewhat primitive. And again, it doesn't matter how rich you are. Some people, they just want to be superior. And I find that across any demographic.

Now, on your last days on this life, you're not going to be like, I wish I had one more person to boss around. No one will say that. Right? But so many of us chase that power. Why? It's coming from some unresolved issue in us, you know? And it doesn't matter where you are in the world.

Something called the ego is talked about everywhere. We used to think that things like narcissism were like Western constructs. But if you go to see gurus in India, you'll see them talking about things like the ego and how to let go of the ego. They're talking about narcissism, right? So mental health is everywhere. We just call it something else.

And when you're looking at things that make you feel, I say spiritually full and fed, but if you don't believe in the spiritual world, just feeling as if you're grounded in purpose and meaning, superiority is not going to be one of those things, right? And so these are like the lower level kind of values that we chase. They have the price tags versus priceless, the things that will give us meaning and purpose, the things where in our last bits of life, we're going to be like, I wish I

I was able to help more people or I wish I was able to spend more time with my family or on causes that I believed in, you know, or things like nature. And so I want you to think about those when you write on your rocks, because I'll have my clients keep those rocks with them in their purses or at their desk. So when they're feeling lost or empty, like this is what I need to hold on to. This is this thing at the end of the day that I'm going to care about the most in life.

Thank you. You're welcome. Great question. Okay. So online, we have a question. It says, hi, Dr. Judith, big fan here. Thanks for joining us. What are your top two to three tips for managing workplace stress for high functioning individuals? Sorry in advance if that's setting you up for book spoilers. Oh, that's...

Oh, thank you. Wow. The person's here. What I would say is that, you know, anhedonia is contagious, right? So if someone in your work environment is not joyful, it spreads. Just like how joy is contagious. If someone in your work environment is joyful, it spreads. You know, people are going to be like, wow, I wonder what they're eating. What are they doing? You know?

So if you know that there are, again, people have the ability to either add to your joy or pull away from your joy. So understand the science of your happiness. That's where the biopsychosocial comes into play. In your social environment, if there are people who are not joyful and they tend to drag you down, you can't cut them off because you work with them, but you may have to limit your exposure to them. And you don't have to be rude about it, right? You can say,

"Oh, you know, like, I have to step away for a bit. You know, like, I'll have to come back to whatever we were discussing." And these are all useful ways of just limiting exposure to people. But people tend to be the number one issues in the workplace that bring about a lack of joy. The other thing is managing stress in the workplace is holistic. So if you're at a desk, you know how I said the 5-4-3-2-1 method?

The part about what you're feeling is so important. We don't even think about our work environments as being a potential place that could suit us. So at my desk,

And with my clients, what I'll say is make sure you're mindful about the chairs that you're using, the desk that you're using. Make sure it's comfy because your body is a living, breathing mechanism. So have a soft place where you're sitting. If you're very temperature dependent, make sure it's cool. Think about all the ways you can soothe your senses.

If you're in a loud environment, you may want to put on a noise machine. If you find that having aromas help you, put those in the environment to soothe you. And things such as-- and I'll demonstrate it-- plants, having plants, even if they're fake,

It does something for our brains. Having that access to nature is really helpful. Transitional objects like that rock or photos are what we use in mental health to help people feel grounded in purpose and meaning. So there are ways that you can set up your environment so that it's an ecosystem that curates and cultivates joy. And then the third thing is those physiological tactics that I taught you, how to tap into what your body already has to help you regulate your stress.

OK, so actually, I'm going to pause here because we actually have a demo that Dr. Judith has to do. So I wanted to give her a chance to do that while everybody's still here before they have to rush off and, you know, hopefully set joy later in your calendar. But yes, so I know she has a demo over here. I don't know anything about it. So I'm going to let her explain what's happening. Yes. So I like to have a little bit of science in my demonstrations because I find that some people are different learners and they need to have imagery to solidify concepts.

So first I'm going to make you a visiting professor of the Happiness Lab. Yes, I have a PhD in happiness. Here is your white coat ceremony. Thank you. Professor Lana. Yes, congratulate me. I am now a professor and a Googler.

My mom's so proud. So what I'm going to ask you to do, Professor Lana, is to read those stones out loud and show the audience what they say. Let's see if I can read. Okay, this one says gratitude. And you can go ahead and put that into that beaker. The big one? Is there a toxic chemical in here? No, it's water. This one says family. This one is faith.

Oh my gosh. It's OK. Messing up. Don't fire me. And this one says joy. Yeah, so thank you for doing that. And what happens is that right now we can see the words clearly. We have a good vision of the things that give us meaning and purpose. But when we lose sight of the values that are important and we chase the superficial values, what happens is that over time it just becomes really difficult to see the things that keep us grounded in purpose. I'm going to add some more.

And if we don't practice things that root us in meaning and purpose, it becomes really hard to see those words, right? Can't see them anymore. But if you start practicing the five V's over time, and I'm going to let that simmer, you should start to be able to see them clearing up. Now, as we let that simmer...

I'm going to go over the workstation. I always have a picture of my daughter in my wallet, so I had to slap that on there. But in mental health, we use transitional objects when people have to leave their loved ones because they have to enter the hospital for physical health reasons or even mental health reasons. Transitional objects give people hope. Again, back to that list of values,

things that keep you rooted in meaning and purpose. So having pictures of your loved ones are so important. We tend to keep them on our phones, but having a physical picture can be very, very powerful as a reminder. Plants are really useful. Even if you don't have a lot of sunlight, fake plants are really helpful. So being surrounded by nature gives you a sense of awe because when we are in nature, we realize how beautiful this world is and how significant we are to even exist.

And one of the things that I like to use is a planner for planning joy. You know, so like this says Monday through Sunday. So I'll write something that I'm looking forward to just as a visual reminder and also keeps us away from tech so much. And Professor Lana, can you see the words now? Yes, I can. Do you see what that one says? Gratitude, family, joy, faith. Faith.

And wonderful items as well. These are waterproof sticky notes. So like sometimes I'll put them in the shower just like plan joy, right? We need these tactile reminders because if we leave it up to our devices all the time, sometimes we get distracted. Like it's hard to find the joy between the board meeting and the other to-do's.

And everyone can use this at a workstation. I wanted to make sure to show a workstation. One thing that I use at my desk is a standing desk so that I'm moving and that I'm not just being sedentary. Even small movements add up to releasing natural joy chemicals in our brain.

Thank you. No, I thought you were going to say these were waterproof so you could cry. But yes. So thank you so much, Dr. Judith, for joining us. Thank you all. Give yourself a round of applause. Give Dr. Judith a round of applause. Thank you. And I hope you have a good rest of your Mental Health Awareness Month and choose joy like Dr. Judith said. There's only one of you.

Thanks for listening. You can watch this episode and tons of other great content at youtube.com slash talks at Google. Talk soon.