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Hi, I'm Nora McNerney, and this is Terrible. Thanks for asking.
Last week, you met my friend Chelsea, who's chronically single but not by choice, which was unacceptable to me or anyone who knew her because Chelsea's great. If you haven't listened to that episode before this one, you're probably going to want to. But Chelsea and I talked all about her dating patterns. And at the end of the episode, I told you that Chelsea had met someone and that you would meet him this week. Who is in this room with us? My boyfriend. Oh, my gosh.
My boyfriend, Brian. And Brian and I have been seeing each other since the beginning of December. So how long is that? Eight months? Yeah. Yeah. We're going to tell you right now that this was not the episode that we wanted to make this week. This episode was intended to be the happy ending that Chelsea deserved, that Brian deserved, that you, the listener, deserved. Because it has been a doozy of a year, end of a podcast season, and...
For Pete's sake, we just wanted to tie things up neatly and bring you a love story filled with hard work and redemption and the assertion that love is not always easy, but it's always worth it. And we didn't do that this week. Well, I'm an addict, alcoholic, and it creates a lot of issues for me by myself and in a relationship with Chelsea.
If you're already armchair quarterbacking this relationship thinking, Chelsea, this is not a good relationship to jump into at this juncture. Or maybe you're thinking, Brian, you sure you're ready for a relationship? But try to suspend that thought just for a second or the duration of this podcast because everything seems so clear when you're looking in at someone else's relationship.
Or when you're looking back on one of your own from a safe, comfortable distance. But when you're in it, it's never that easy. No one ever sets up, you know, a Match.com profile that says, like, looking for recovering addicts. Chelsea didn't set up a Match.com profile and neither did Brian because this love story, like all great love stories, started when a bunch of dads and their dad-age single friend decided to relive their early 20s by quite literally...
getting the band back together. This is that band. I don't have a vocabulary for music other than, "I like this, I don't like this." But the kids in our house call this "dad rock," which the guys in the band do not like. But if the shoe fits. The guys practice in my basement every Sunday. Apologies to my neighbors.
My husband Matthew is the drummer, and I say that purely to brag. Brian is the guitarist. He is so sweet. I call Brian Thor behind his back and to his face because he's like a brawny Nordic dude with really well-done artistic tattoos. He has the kindest face. He's a fine artist. I mean, several things. Like, he's a good artist. He does not just the regular arts.
He's the fine arts. And he's a good-looking artist. He's a fine artist. He's any way you want to describe it, it works. He's a fine artist. He's a great guitar player. He's so sweet. He's just a sweet, sweet man. So it's early December 2016, about a week after I interviewed Chelsea for last week's episode about her being forever alone, which meant that she and her love life were on my mind when the band started to arrive for practice and in walks Brian. He's kind and handsome. And I think, hmm, what's going on?
Who else do I know who's single and looking to mingle? We met in this house, at your house. I came over for dinner one night on a Sunday, and Maddie had just finished band practice, and one of his bandmates just conveniently was still here and stayed for dinner. Okay, in this case, conveniently is another word for
Because Nora set it up. That night, we were eating a homemade Whole30-compliant meal. No gluten, no dairy, no added sugar, but a lot of added romance. The kids set the table. Everyone had mostly clean flatware. And Brian and Chelsea were again, conveniently, seated near each other at our kitchen table. That is, it turns out, the recipe for romance. There is no other. And...
The next day he looked me up, found my website, sent me an email. Do you make a habit of looking up every dinner guest? No, no, I don't. Um, I don't know. I was, I was in a place, um, where I was looking to date someone too. And, uh, she was sort of the first person that I'd really been interested in. Creativity is a very attractive quality. Um,
Brian was thoughtful.
He planned dates, like creative dates, not like, let's have dinner. He made her dinner and he did the dishes. Things were just good. Not like, oh, I finally met a guy and now my life is complete. But Chelsea was changing. She was letting someone love her. She was lighter, less filled with doubt. I don't know, it's hard to describe these changes you see in someone when they're in love. It's like they're a brighter version of themselves. They're just luminous.
And I had to assure her, this is good. This is what it's like to be liked, really liked, by a man who is worth your time. I wasn't used to someone being, like, so kind to me. And that's sort of what this whole relationship has been, is just, like, sort of being, like, constantly showered with, like, love and kindness from another human being. And it's like...
So you look for love.
you find it. And you each bring to the other all of your old vulnerabilities and hurts. After a couple of dates, Brian tells Chelsea about his drinking. Chelsea tells Brian about her dating past and how she'd felt unlovable. And to me, this is the beautiful work of a fresh relationship. Just bringing up these old things and making one another brand new again. It's this limitless possibility of what could be. Oh, I was pretty terrified. I mean, um...
She wasn't the first person that I've told by any means, but the first person whose attention I was sort of seeking, whose affection I was seeking, that I had to tell. Brian had been sober for months before meeting Chelsea, and for the first few months that they were together, he stayed sober. It was the first significant period of sobriety in Brian's adult life. You know, I don't remember as much
About, like, the first time I drank, immediately I remember thinking that, like, I can't let Chelsea find out about this because we're still at, you know, a somewhat delicate place in our relationship. I don't want to scare her. He had been what he was calling, like, post-acute withdrawal syndrome, which can...
cause withdrawal symptoms to happen for a long period of time. And so I think that's what he was using to sort of hide the fact that he had been drinking for like the couple weeks before that. And I had been concerned and maybe like slightly suspicious. Like my mom had asked, like, are you sure he's not using? And I said, like, I guess I can't be sure.
Um, but all you can really do is trust your partner. And I think that that's been like a really hard part of the grander situation, um, is just wanting to be able to like put trust and faith in your partner and taking their word. Um, did you think that would be the only time? Oh, you always think it's, it's going to be the only time. But the problem is that, um, addiction really loves, um, it really loves shame, um,
sort of feeds on it and it's hard, you know, aside from like the physical aspect of addiction, there's, you know, a psychological side to where you just feel you feel bad for what you've done. And the way you cope with feeling bad is by turning to your drug of choice and
And then you use and you feel bad about it. And it sort of continues in that cycle perpetually. How often were you drinking? Oh, probably about every other day. You know, I really try to, and I think this is fairly common, you know, when you're in the midst of the remorse from drinking, it's very easy to get drunk.
Enough of a grasp on things that you can have a small period of sobriety. And then as soon as you feel okay, again, you think that you're in control and often, you know, go back to using again. Where did you drink? Oh, at home. I mean, I'm a big isolator and always have been.
By a big isolator, Brian means he would go home, chug a bottle of wine in his garage, and like carry on with his life. There are a lot of different kinds of alcoholics. Some people are mean or violent, and some are just lovable and kind of goofy. Plenty of people are high-functioning and maintain jobs and friendships and seem totally fine, aside from the fact that they drink like all the time. Some people binge drink. Some people can stay sober and then go on big benders. Look,
There's just a lot of varieties. Brian is the kind who drinks large quantities of alcohol all alone. But he doesn't get mean. He doesn't get violent. He just gets drunk. But we didn't know that. I mean, we knew that he had a problem with alcohol, but we'd never seen it. Matthew, my husband, had known Brian since they were teenagers, and he'd never seen Brian have a drink. I'd never seen him drink.
Chelsea had never seen him drink. So when he seemed weird, like at a dinner, when he was sort of uncharacteristically goofy and also having a hard time following the conversation, we were like, oh, acute withdrawal syndrome. But then one day, Chelsea gets a call from the gym where Brian works. That someone had called his boss because they were concerned that he had been drinking while he was at work and that he was acting abnormally. And so I...
At the time had thought that he was kind of going like he had said he had some sort of like some sort of. We got a landline, folks. Is someone going to get that? All right.
Which is literally the opposite.
Of where I live. In rush hour. In rush hour traffic. Yeah. And... You rushed there at 20 miles an hour. Yeah. Yep. I got there and, I mean, I could immediately kind of see... I mean, Brian was pretty out of it, but I could see sort of like the shame and disappointment just all over his face. And it was really difficult. Yeah.
I want to say here this isn't unusual. According to the National Institute on Drug Abuse, relapse rates for addiction are between 40 and 60 percent. And according to just anecdotes from people you know, like, it just happens. It happens a lot. So since that night, Brian has gotten sober, then gotten drunk, gotten sober, then drunk, started a new treatment program that is very intense and customized to him. And like I said, relapse is common, but knowing that
doesn't make it any less brutal. Because knowing where you fit in with someone's addiction and treatment is really difficult, especially when you love this person, and especially when the relationship is new. And Chelsea had to learn how to navigate that, not just building a new relationship.
but figuring out how the relationship changes when Brian is using again. Thursday night, it's been sort of my tradition to try and leave, but I usually alert his parents, not because he is not a functioning adult, but just because I really do want someone to...
be aware of his health and be checking in on him as well. Because it's like, I don't really want to be a part of the cycle, but like, I also care about him a lot. And you have a role of some kind. Yeah. If Brian had cancer that came back and Chelsea stayed, she'd get sympathy and love from people and cards and meals dropped off. And that doesn't happen when your beloved is an addict. Which, and I'm not trying to say like, they're the same thing, but like, that does make sense.
Something that is difficult and lonely, more difficult and more lonely. There's just like a lot of lack of compassion for addicts. And learning what I've learned through this process, I just, it's like, it's heartbreaking, you know, because people just don't have any patience for it. And it just seems like something that people just, that haven't really experienced.
can't help. You know what I mean? I mean, people do get sober and, you know, live with sobriety. Your dad did and your brother is. And I know that it's a
Super common issue. I try to talk about it a lot with people because the more I talk about it, the more people will say like they've got an experience with it. And like I said, it's hard because my mom grew up around addicts who never got better, you know. And so I think everyone has different experiences and it's just it's hard because it just feels like a very misunderstood experience.
Is disease the right word? An okay word? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I worry that he could die. And I think that it's becoming such a common story. I feel like, you know, you just hear people all the time, like, overdosing or, you know, like, alcohol. I feel like there's just so many ways for it to just creep up on you, whether it's, like, poisoning or, you know, just like some sort of, you know,
organ shutting down. And it's that's the exhausting part, too, where I think for me as well is that constant not knowing, you know, it's like usually you can operate on a, you know, right or wrong, you know, of making decision making. And this is such an ambiguous one of like, how do I know if I'm making the right choices? You know, Brian, what do we do? What should we do?
But I want to know. I think everybody wants to know. Anyone who listens to this can be like, what do we do? But now what? What do we do? How do we be there for you? I'm not sure. I mean, I know what I've told Chelsea is, you know, I want you to be supportive, but she can't be my support system, my entire support system. I want to be sober for her.
but she can't be the reason that I'm sober. And the way, I mean, there's a number of reasons for that, but the number one thing that concerns me is if she's the reason I'm sober and I relapse, what's that say about her and about our relationship? You know, I think you just, you really, I think you can voice concern and love, but you have to take care of yourselves. Yeah.
I feel like from the other side, it's like so hard to because alcohol is such a legal and like normal, plentiful drug. Like it's just I mean, even like last night we were over here, you know, and it's just like for dinner and there's just like a bottle of wine, you know, like I've gotten so hyper aware of every single adult thing.
revolves around alcohol and it can be very difficult and especially for me who I've been you know a light to moderate drinker my whole adult life like go to TJ Maxx my favorite place and be like there's like tea towels that are like it's time for wine yeah wine o'clock yeah wine plus yoga yeah I was like that's not even an equation right right right that would make me sick
I have to keep trying. I just have to keep trying. Um, when, you know, when I was able to get sober before it was by just doing, listening to the people that know better than I do and doing exactly what they told me to do. And, um, I think I've been maybe caught in, in so much sort of self doubt and just low self-esteem lately that, um,
I was really kind of trying to grasp onto things pretty hard for myself, and I just need to kind of let go and do what I'm told now. And I'm hoping that'll work again. And then the problem is, you know, just keeping it up over time. Are you still glad I tricked you into coming over for dinner when I definitely knew a handsome single man was going to be here? I am. I am. Yeah. It's life. It's hard sometimes. And certainly, like...
worth it, you know, to go through hard things to, you know, I mean, I think about myself and how much I've grown as a person through this experience. And again, I wish I could just take it all away from, from Brian and just have him be, you know, quote unquote normal, you know. But we've learned a lot through this process too about each other, like so much through
In the last, like, few weeks, it's just really grown a lot and gotten to, like, a much, like, deeper level in our relationship, which has been really kind of incredible, but just a really difficult way to, you know... Not the choice way of going about it. Yeah. But I would say that, too. I would say, like, you know, the days, the sober days I've had with you have just been pretty fantastic. Yeah.
You know what else is fantastic? Taking a break.
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Make a donation of $5 a month or more at ttfa.org slash donate and your invitation will be in the mail. The email. The electronic mail. And we're back. Remember when I said we wanted you to just have a happy ending for once? That would have gone right here. And when last week's episode came out, the one where we talked about Chelsea's chronic singledom before Brian...
Brian had over 10 days of sobriety and he was going to come over to my house so we could catch up and he could brag about that and we could bring you the resolution we all wanted for these lovely people. But nope, Brian didn't make it over to my house instead. He texted me that something had come up and I called him and I figured out pretty quickly what that something was.
What did you drink? Well, tonight I drank, I think, a 7.30am vodka. Jesus. Do you even, like, enjoy it? No. It's literally just to get drunk. Oh.
Uh, no. No. It's not just to get drunk. There's like this, um, it's to fulfill a very specific chemical reaction in my brain. Yeah. What does it feel like?
Well, god damn, Nora. It doesn't feel like anything feels like trying to get back to normalcy.
Do you feel normal right now? No. That's the horrible thing. It's like I want to feel normal, and my dog is curling up in my bed with me right now. She's trying to feel normal. It makes me happy, but...
It just does not feel normal because I know that what I want out of life is... I want to go over to Chelsea's. And she's sitting over there and she's feeling pain. Yeah. I want to be with her so bad. Yeah.
You don't want this? No, of course not. I'd never met drunk Brian before, not in person, not on the phone, and it's bedtime and the little kids want my attention and I'm trying to get reception in our house, which is basically a fortress that protects us from cell phone signals, and I was just...
so overwhelmingly sad. Brian, when did you start drinking? Because when Matthew met you, you were like straight edge. I wasn't like straight edge. I smoked. Cigarettes? Yeah. I came out of an alcoholic family. What was your dad like? He was unpredictable.
He sometimes came home at night, sometimes not. He sometimes, you know, would go to Wisconsin and get fireworks and come back home and then not show up forever. I don't know. He was unpredictable.
It's not a good radio story. Well, I mean... He's just a shitty person. But you didn't want to be like your dad? No, of course not. And you're afraid if you drank, then you would end up like your dad? Yeah. Have you? Oh, yeah. No, not at all. Do you remember the first time you drank? Yeah. Yeah.
It was because I was going out with a girl and I wanted to impress her. She drank and I was just like, I was 25. And... What was the first thing you drank? Do you remember? It was a glass of white wine. Yeah.
It seemed cool, seemed sophisticated, but it got very, very complicated very quickly after that.
Was drinking a problem, like, right away? Was it like a switch was flipped and you were like, oh, shit, I like this a little too much? Yes. And, Nora? Yeah? If you want me to, I'm going to be completely open about drinking. So I'll answer any question you want about it. Just because...
I want to. But, yeah, when I was 25 was when I first drank, like, really heavily. And the first time I did, I hit it in my room. And I was going to go to a bar and play a show with my band later that night. And for some reason, I felt like
They couldn't know that I was drinking. So I drank in my room alone before we went to the show. You were already ashamed? Oh, absolutely. I'm ashamed right now talking about it. And there were many, many nights after that where...
All I did was hide my drinking. I heard you sigh just now. Yeah, it makes me sad.
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I knew those facts about him, but they weren't a part of the Brian that I knew. The Brian I knew was this fantastic, thoughtful guy who was making my friend happier than I'd ever seen her, who would throw my four-year-old into the sky with ease every time he saw him. The alcoholics I have in my life, among them my late father, they all got better. They were all recovering.
And that's how I've always understood it to be, recovering, not recovered, that it's a chronic issue. It's a constant source of self-work. It would be easier for all of us if Brian was a jerk, and then I could just say, ugh, Chelsea, dump him. But he isn't a jerk. You've heard him. He's sensitive and self-aware. And I know on this phone call that just a few miles from my house, Brian is home, fully aware of his fudge up and just hating himself for it.
I know that my friend is hurt and feeling alone. I know that Brian doesn't want to hurt anyone, but that his behavior does hurt Chelsea. And the reaction to his behavior from other people hurts her because they see his drinking and his alcoholism as a character flaw, but they don't know his actual character. And I think that's what makes it easy for us to judge people, just knowing a little bit about them, like enough to decide you're good, you're bad.
And Brian's a good dude who just doesn't always do good things. This is me and Chelsea at my house again, but just the two of us and in the background, a bunch of 10-year-old girls hanging out in the basement. I mean, I think it's hard because I hear a lot of people will say like, oh, I just don't have time for that. Like, I just wouldn't have any patience with that. That does seem to put the addiction into a category of
it being a rational behavior on the addict's part. And... By that you mean a rational behavior. A rational, not irrational. Yeah. Because it is completely irrational. And I think that that's why people that don't suffer from addiction get so frustrated because we see...
Whether it's, you know, an alcoholic in my case or, you know, anyone with any sort of addiction. Like, how do you get yourself all the way to the liquor store and, you know, get the bottle, get home and still, you know, like think it's a good idea. But it's just it goes completely beyond addiction.
And it's so frustrating to not be able to, as like a extremely rational person, I would say like, Oh, you're very rational. Like to like rationalize this, you know? And to be like, well, just don't. Right. Like the,
The key is that you don't drink. Right. The key is that... And if it were that easy, then no one would have any problems with addiction. If the key was just don't do it. Right. Like, and it just seems like, oh, it's like some sort of self-control issue, but it really seems to go beyond that in a way that I just will never be able to comprehend. What are, like, what are you going to do? I think that's like the million dollar question and the situation...
That's what makes the situation so hard because there's just really no right or wrong answer. Like people say, like, do whatever makes you feel good. Follow whatever, you know, is going to make you feel good. And it's like none of the decisions are going to make me feel good. None of this. Like, I just feel like I'm stuck in this. Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. What are your options right now? I think my options are to just...
keep going and not change anything and just keep hoping every day that it happens, that it's the last time or I leave him and or something like in between. It's always something in between. Our choices in life and love are just never as clear as we need them to be. Not when they're in the moment. Right now, Brian and Chelsea have broken up.
Some of you are cheering. Some of you are booing. Some of you are the personification of emoticon shrug guy or the emoji grimace smile, which I believe was modeled after me. Because this is such an impossible situation in so many ways. Because under all of this is just pain. Chelsea is hurting. Brian is hurting. And because of that, everyone who loves them is hurting.
Almost a week later, Brian is two days sober when I call him for a final update before we publish this episode. It's very confusing to be in a situation where she tells me that she loves me and she wants to be with me and she...
broke the pattern of, you know, how she was dating and that when we started dating, I did everything right to make her feel cared for and deserving of a relationship. And the one thing that I got wrong was being an alcoholic, but it was not a conscious decision. And I'm trying everything I can to fix it. And...
It's kind of a lot to deal with both things at the same time. And I want this to have a happy ending, too. This has been terrible. Thanks for asking. Brian, we love you. Please get better. Chelsea, we love you.
If you or someone you love is struggling with alcohol or substances, abuse, addiction, treatment, or you need help finding resources and treatment, you can go to recovery.org and americanaddictioncenters.org. You can locate an AA meeting near you today by going to aa-meetings.com slash locator.
This show was written, hosted, and even recorded by me, Nora McInerney. It was recorded in my home. I apologize for all the sounds. Hans Butow is our senior producer who, I don't know, I guess he just found it in this week. Our interns are Jacob Maldonado-Medina, Emily Allen, and Marcus Arsbold. I've met one of them. Who are these other interns? Hannah Mecock-Ross is our project manager and personally just is basically everything to me.
Special thanks this week to Molly Bloom, Mark Sanchez, Suzanne Pico. I love that name. Pico. I don't know how she says it. I think she says it like a normal person. And Jeffrey Besoy-Metis, who wrote his college thesis about the fresh prince of Bel-Air. This kid is a treasure. Our theme song is by Joffrey Lamar Wilson. TTFA is a production of American Public Media, APM. Doot, doot.
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