What Happened to Nicky | "Vietnam" (304) with special guest Michael Angarano
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On today's episode of That Was Us, we're diving into Season 3, Episode 4, Vietnam. After watching his young brother Nicky get selected in the U.S. draft lottery for the Vietnam War, Jack makes a life-altering decision to enlist himself, forever changing the course of both of their lives.

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You guys, it's a very exciting day. It is an exciting day. We have another guest. Yes, we do. We have another guest. You might know him as Young Nicky. Yeah. But you may also know him from Lords of Dogtown. Yeah. You may know him from The Nick. Yeah. You may know him from Almost Famous. Oh, my goodness. Or you may know him from his brand new movie, Sacramento. Come on now.

Michael Angarano. Angarano's here! Wow. What's up, buddy? Nice intro. Nice intro. Nice plug. Yeah. Leave it to Sully. Buddy, I saw your movie. Let's just get straight to this. Yeah, let's get straight to this. You're going to make me blush. I'm already blushing. I'm already like... You're going to make you blush. You have written a movie. Mm-hmm. You have starred in a movie. Directed. You have directed this movie. Yeah. It is called Sacramento. Mm-hmm. It is starring yourself and Michael Cera. Mm-hmm.

And your wife, partner? My both. Wife and partner. Wife and partner. Yes. Maya Erskine. Yes. And Kristen Stewart. Yes. Yeah. And I saw the premiere about a week ago. Yeah. And the movie has not left my brain. We love it. It is a classic, like grounded in reality, heartfelt,

Straight up comedy, which nobody makes anymore. Yeah. Very true. And you have to see this movie. Thanks, man. Can you give us that elevator pitch? Please. It's two old friends, myself, Michael, Sarah, who go on an impromptu road trip from Los Angeles to Sacramento.

That's it. That is literally... That's all you need to know. That's all you need to know. And it started as exactly that. We started writing it 10 years ago. And it's just funny because we're shooting this, doing this in Los Feliz adjacent area, east side. Yeah.

you know, this was the old stomping grounds 10 years ago and I don't live around here anymore, but driving around here, I'm like, oh yeah, we used to write in this coffee shop. We used to, we just, you know, we used to hang out at the par three down the street. This is like where my friend Chris Smith and I, we wrote this 10 years ago and didn't start, when we wrote it, we didn't really know what it was going to become. We wanted to make it eventually, but it started just as this impromptu road trip from

Los Angeles to Sacramento. It started as like a joke. Hey, you want to like the million signs around Los Angeles, say I-5 North Sacramento. So we just reverse engineered this story around that joke one day. We did a pilot together that didn't get picked up. So we were unemployed. Okay. Hanging out, going to like the par three in the batting cages. And,

And we, yeah, man, we just, you know, as we grew and evolved and matured as guys, like the story changed and evolved and kind of became what it is now, which I don't want to spoil the movie. We're not going to spoil it. Yeah, don't spoil it. But that's sort of what, that's kind of how it grew. Given the old school nature of what you're talking about, so in the movie, how hard was it to get a,

theatrical distribution? Was it an easy pitch? What kind of hurdles did you have to go through in order to get it made? I mean, so many. So many. And I'm so happy that it's gotten a theatrical release and a pretty significant one. I mean, it's all over the country. It was only in a couple 200 theaters, but still it's like

People all across the country and in Canada can go see it. So it wasn't until I think I watched our notes screening. We had a big notes screening when we were editing where I realized how...

how much a movie like this needs to be seen in a theater. Because it is a comedy. And it's not the same when you watch it alone in a room. Sure. And even it affected our editing process. It's like, oh, this actually plays and it plays bigger. And so to answer the question, I think when we were making it,

I mean, even though I would have always loved it to be in a theater, I don't think I ever was dead set on it being released in theaters. Okay. Because I was just like, oh, I just want people to see it. Sure. However people can see it, whether it's on a stream, whatever it is these days, I was like, that's going to be what it is. And so the fact that we got an actual significant release in theaters, I've just...

I've been so happy because it's so harmonious with the film itself. It really should be seen in the theater, and it's really nice to see it with people, to experience it together. You forget how easily you forget. It's so necessary. It really is. I brought my buddy Simon, and as soon as it was done, we both were like, I would sit down and watch that again right now.

And I haven't felt that way about a movie in a long time. It's also only 84 minutes long. That helps. That does help. Take it straight to the end. That's perfect. That's what I want. You want in a movie. Either 90 minutes...

or four hours long everything everything in like the two everything in like the two hours if you can't tell it in 90 minutes it better take four hours right but like 245 what's 245 right a four hour it needs to ruin your day it needs to like i'm not eating lunch you need to prove to me that it takes this long to tell a story exactly i feel the same way totally i bet right

August Osage only. This better have no intermission or a dinner break. Yes, yes, yes.

Last one before we get into this episode. Directing the wife collaboration. Talk to me a little bit about that. I want to direct my wife. Just in general? Tell her what to do. Is that awesome? Well, the trick is you don't. That's part of it. Well, but the really amazing... I've always kind of said that this film...

Just because it was always written with the idea of it being fun for us. Like it was never really wrote it to make money. Oh, we're not making money. But it was always with the idea of like, you know, if this ever stops being fun, we're going to stop. Yeah. And for Chris and I. So always was born around this like good energy concept. And then when we are trying to package the movie.

uh mike sarah we get who's i've been a friend of for you know 20 years at this point and so maya came around yeah we were not together okay i did not know maya personally at all um i was just a fan of her show pen 15 yeah and so i wrote her a letter asking her to you know if she was interested if she would want to attach herself to the part

This is how you guys met? This is how we met. The boy's out of here! See, good question, Brian. I'm proud of myself. Yeah, this is how we met. And this film, we met, she said yes, which was, for us, that was like a miracle because for this character, she's like,

It's such an important integral character to the story. And I've always said it. And this is what I said in my letter to her. I was like, really, the film, the film's tone, the film's, I mean, everything about the film really hinges on this performance and this character. And so it's a small Venn diagram of like what we need from this actor to play this part. Yeah.

And so the fact that she said yes was like such a win for us. And we wouldn't meet Maya and I for like months because she was doing season two of her show. And so...

It was like a very, very small window. Her agent called mine like the day before. She's like, Maya will be available at 4 p.m. tomorrow. And I'm like, great. I'm there for 30 minutes. Yes. No, literally. I was like, wherever. However, I'll like I'll bring her lunch, whatever it is. I'll like just want to say hi and duck out. I'll give her babies. Yes. Literally, I will start a life. And so the meeting went very well.

And it went very well. And we, truthfully, like we spoke about the movie for like seven minutes. And we met for like, you know, two hours. It was just like, and we just very much got along. But we, you know, we wouldn't, the movie wouldn't get made for several years. And so, you know, we just kept in touch.

And, you know, months later, we started dating. And then, you know, the movie would get made. By the time the movie got made, we were engaged and had a child. Listen, you want a wife. Write a movie. Yeah, write a movie for her. Write a movie for her. And when you see the film, it has this amazing...

sort of prophetic. Yeah. Oh, I can't wait. Okay. I'm telling you, I know exactly what I'm doing. I can't stop thinking about it. It was really great. Okay. Let's talk about this. Thanks, man. Thanks guys. Michael Ingerano started acting when he was three months old. You were a child actor. Yeah. First gig was I'm not Rappaport. That's true. That's true.

Walter Matthau. When you were three years old. Ozzie Davis. Yep. I was five. I was five years old. Five years old. You walk through this career and This Is Us comes around and it's shot in LA. Yep. For actors. Very enticing. If you live in LA, it's a great thing. My God. It's a nice, calm...

relationship-based drama. It's already picked up. It's already picked up. You think, great, this is going to be a nice gig. And then they say, welcome to the show. We're going to put you up in Lake Piru setting shit on fire. Yeah.

Oh yeah, you're in Vietnam. You're in Vietnam. Sorry. Right. Sorry. Your first episode lands you in Vietnam. And here we are in the episode entitled Vietnam. That's what it's called. Written by Tim O'Brien. Tim O'Brien and Dan Fogelman. And Dan Fogelman. Tim O'Brien, you brought to our attention, again, as the author who also... The Things They Carried, which is a famous book, I think, from like the mid-90s that chronicled his time in Vietnam. That's right. Yeah.

And the episode opens on Jack in Vietnam on a quote-unquote special mission doing top-secret government stuff. That's right. And we quickly learn that he's trying to track down... His brother. His little brother. Trying to track down... Before he gets to his little brother, you see that they're sort of surveying the land, what have you. And they have their scout out in front who's looking for the landmines. And he's having this conversation with another brother who's in his...

platoon and his troop etc played by mo mccray and mo mccray has been there for 90 days which means he only got 90 more days to go yeah i'm halfway done i'm on my way out two things i like about this is because i hear you and you ain't even been here as long as me jack and you already leading this platoon or whatever two things that tells me jack natural leader number one two

Subtle nod to racism. Subtle nod, in my opinion. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Shout out for, you know, calling a spade a spade. Because, you know, they ain't gonna let no brother run this group. But Jack is a leader. And three, not a mechanic. Not a mechanic. He's always told us that he's been a mechanic. It turns out that he's the staff sergeant in charge of a group of men, right?

They find a mine. They were able to successfully blow it up without anybody getting hurt. Later on in the evening, they're hanging out and a couple of guys are playing football. Jack's like, please quit playing around. You know what I'm saying? Let's get serious or whatnot. Guy's like, I bet you can't even throw it that far. My man goes out for a pass. Squirrel, yeah. Squirrel hits a mine, blows up. Then VCs start opening fire and there's a little firefight that's going on through this whole thing. Now,

I think it's important that we say that this episode, really interestingly, is told in reverse chronological order. I think there's a line in it that sort of like syncs up, and it's a line that you have. Hopefully you watched the episode. Well, I've seen it. You were there. You were there. You remember. It was all good. Because it winds up, we find out throughout the course of the thing,

that Jack did not have to be in Vietnam. Sure. Right. We have the draft going on right now, and we'll get to it a little bit later on. But Jack enlisted, and...

It winds up that this mission that he had or the place where he's stationed is just a few clicks away, 20, 25 away from where his brother's stationed. And so he gets off the helicopter. He walks over. He goes, hey, little brother. It's very nice because he's got his pants pulled down just so you can see a little bit of that V.

That V-jack that goes right there. And it's real sexy and real cool and very mysterious. Classic Vietnam film TV look. Shirtless and dirty. It's like he has on underwear or maybe he doesn't. Maybe not. Maybe not. And he turns around and he throws in the thing and the fire comes up and it's like, oh, I got on glasses, but I'm cool.

with my glasses, bro. You know, this shit plays. And we meet Nikki. And we meet Nikki. Yeah. And we meet Nikki. So you land. This is all in Lake Piru? This is all up in Lake Piru? Yeah, that was. When you guys shot? Yeah. Had you worked with Milo before? Yes. We did a film together, a Jason Statham film called Wild Card. Of course you did. Yeah. I have the... Yeah, very... We shot it in New Orleans. We didn't overlap a lot, but when we did, it was always...

a very grounding presence. Wait, yeah. With Statham or with Milo? With Milo. With Milo. Ah!

I need you to elaborate, please. This is for our listeners. Milo Ventimiglia is dearly beloved by every person here. And he's also just a man of mystery. Yeah, he's an enigma. He is an enigma wrapped inside of a puzzle. Like, he is...

He broods. Well, you forget. It wasn't until the second. I don't forget. I never forget. I dream about him all the time. But there are actors and then there are movie stars. And Milo's a straight up movie star. He drops into a place that you have to drop into with a certain amount of grounded nature. Yeah. That is...

that really carries in this Vietnam episode. Sure. Yeah. Sure. We'll be right back with more That Was Us.

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Did you guys, before you got cast, did you guys talk to each other at all before? Or were you just seeing each other on set for the first time? Yeah, how did you get cast? Just an offer? Yeah. Cool. It was one of those where like... And I can sit to you five minutes. Yeah, yeah. I mean, offer only. Offer only. But it was also like a wonderful surprise. Like, it wasn't like things were just rolling in. And I also had just come off a show that was...

didn't get picked up for a third season. And then... No, it was this other show called I'm Dying Up Here. I'm Dying Up Here. Okay. And so it was...

This like weird in-between land where you're like, I'm not sure if this show is going to go anymore. And like, what am I? And so my agent called me and he was like, I've never been this excited about something for you. And he was like, you know, there's this arc on This Is Us that... I was in Atlantic City at my mother's dancing school's dance competition. Okay. Where like...

I found out about this and I talked to Isaac Aptaker on the phone at this dance competition and he like pitched me this arc and I was like, sounds crazy. You're going to go to Vietnam on the show. Right. I mean, it's, it's, you're going to be on this as us, but in Vietnam. Yeah. And it wasn't totally clear exactly, you know, he didn't tell me everything, but he told me,

He told me a lot. He basically told me the first four or so episodes that I was on. Yeah. Gotcha. How many episodes did you end up doing? That's a great question. I think like eight or something. Yeah. Eight or nine. Over the course of the show. Or something like that. Yeah.

But no, I hadn't spoken to Milo, just via text a little bit. And then it wasn't until I showed up. Had you done any military stuff before? No. You had. You'd done Whiskey Tango. I'd done Whiskey Tango. I'd done Army Wives. Army Wives. And then I actually did JAG. You know, like a few different things where I had to... I've only recently had my first encounter with a military consultant on a set. Yeah. And it just seems...

it seems like a lot of pressure to represent a time or a person. I didn't know if you guys had had any experience with that. Have you had any? I haven't, no. Where it's like, this is a different level of...

Like responsibility, responsibility, impersonation. On army wise, we would have, um, uh, consultants all the time. Cause, cause the main thing is you just want to get it right. Right. To honor the people that have served the country. When they see it, you want to say like, okay, that looks real. Right. You know what I mean? That's, that's the bottom line. Right. Yeah. Did we have that on the show? Yeah. Okay. There was, there was like this, um, a very, you know, a very brief, but, uh,

little boot camp that they did with the soldiers, the actors who played the soldiers in the show. And as one would expect, this took place in Lake Piru. And as one would expect, Milo was like... Leading the charge. Leading the charge. And actually, I was late. I was late the first day because they weren't bringing me to it. Yeah. And so it was like the morning of and I was like, I found out. I was like, I think I should go to this. Yeah. They were excluding me from it and I kind of...

Weaseled my way in, so I showed up late. And the... I forget his name, but the consultant who was running that boot camp... Didn't know that you weren't supposed to, but yeah. Yeah, but he was also like, hey, you're late. Sure. Kind of giving me shit, like we don't get late here. And Milo was like, hey, no. You're not going to give him shit right now. He fully...

That's right. Jack Pearson. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, man. This is actually a little bit, because before we get past this part in the story, I have a little bit of a hot take. Oh, let's hear it. And it's a Jack Pearson hot take. Come on now. Go for it. Don't look at me that way. Yeah, I was like, okay, what is it? Yeah, right. Let's hear it. It didn't track for me that Jack was not supportive of his wife.

fellow soldier's baseball dreams. Wait. He kind of is like, yeah, good luck with that. And I was like, that doesn't feel... Well, it felt kind of... Jack Pearson to me. I feel like Jack Pearson would have been like... It just felt a little like...

shit talking though you know what i mean a little bit but there's a certain part i just when robinson when they're like when they're walking before they encounter i'm going to amarillo and i'm going to do this and roberto clemente yes yes that he's saying that he's going to come and take that but what i mean is morale morale wise dreams wise i was like i feel like jack pearson would be like you know what supportive you can do anything buddy i

I feel like in the heat of what they were doing, like that just felt a little more like. It's a lukewarm take then. Yeah, it's a little more lukewarm. There was just sort of the banter of like, we're in this together. Well, because it's twofold too, Sally. First, he's talking about taking out Willie Mays, right? Who's like the greatest. Then he's talking about the greatest also who's from his hometown of Pittsburgh. That's right.

He's like, if I can't do that, I'm going to do that. Good luck with that, big dog. I should also say, before we even get to Nikki, there is a KIA and a WIA, right? So Squirrel wound up passing away from that bomb. Yes. And then Robinson wound up losing his leg. Yes. And this is one of the beautiful moments. We were talking about this a little bit before camera. Where?

where Robinson looks over to Jack and he says, man, aren't you tired of pretending that you're not scared? He's like, I've been pretending my whole life, man. It's just the way that I do. And it's the birth of this thing. It's like every once in a while, my mom or my dad, I can't remember, says like, you know, you just have to remember to do the thing that sustains life.

when you're afraid of losing life. Because we stop breathing. Right. And every once in a while, you just got to breathe. And it was this beautiful thing of Robinson, Mo McCray, reaching up to Milo, putting his hand on his cheek and just saying, breathe, Jack. And like it hitting Jack and then there's a quick pop flash of,

of Jack holding his hands over his young black son's face and saying breathe. And you still realize this thing that we've seen for two and a half seasons, where it came from or not. And it was really, really beautiful. I also just like that a black man taught it to him, that he's teaching it to this young. - Oh, it was, that was the first time in the episode. I was like, oh, I forgot about that. That really got me.

Yeah. I wrote that, yeah, he was so scared that we were going to die. We forget to do the thing that keeps us alive. Right. Just breathe. So now, okay, this is interesting because we're talking about Vietnam, but the next thing that we do is that we go back, right? And we go back. I'm trying to remember what the term is. It jumps to a garage, right? Jumps to a garage with the two of them in the garage, right? And we see one of the best wigs ever.

That ain't no wig. That was your hair, right? That was your hair? That ain't no wig, my man. Oh, excuse me. I'm sorry. Is that you? That was all you? That's all me. It became a wig later in the show. Got it, got it, got it. But that was... That was a long, flowing, delightful lock. Shoulder length. Yeah, you have really good hair. Crackle pop. Shoulder length. Yes, sir. So we find Jack and Nikki in this garage discussing...

The impending draft. The impending draft, right? Yeah. Because, you know, I don't know too much about the draft. So this was actually really educational for me because it just sounds like on one night, they're going to call out birthdays. And if your birthday is called out, you've been drafted, right? That's right. But evidently, the nuance of it is that it usually only gets to like the first...

50 or maybe even to 200. So we just want your birthday to be called out 365th. Like that's what we're hoping for in this whole thing. And the birthday is October 18th. Right. Which is really interesting because this air date was October 16th. So I don't know if like how they timed it out. They'll make it like as close as it was there. But so they're there and they're talking about it. And there's a...

a glimpse of a superman either before this when he walks into oh does it later i don't think i get my chronology right because this superman imagery comes back in the sort of like narrative of the show right the kids the the the baby nicky and jack are playing with their toys exactly but one of the things that really just sort of hit me and to let me know

how blessed and privileged the life i've had is the opening shot of um mrs pearson whatever is with the black guy yeah right and it just really like i don't know how why this is so profound to me or whatnot because i know too many people have had to live with it you know i'm saying but that like that was common or maybe not common or whatever maybe it was common in jack's house but like

People get domestic abuse is a real thing that people live with, right? Like it's not like it just like you stop the presses and everything stops and then we're going to write this wrong. Like this woman has been living with this. These children have been bearing witness to this for an extended period of time. Like, and just to see what happens.

Jack came from and the house that he wanted to create for his children. Like from that episode before, I want to be, have a family, have kids about as far away from anything that I grew up. I've known, yeah. You know what I'm saying? How do these conversations work for you when you are coming in to a, like this domestic abuse storyline's been going on in our show for a few episodes, for, you know, decades?

A season, a season and a half now. And how do they catch you up to speed on... That's a good question. All the details, yeah. Or do they? I'm not sure they really did. I'm not sure we really discussed a lot about... The history of the family. About their mother. I don't remember any specific conversations with Isaac or Elizabeth or Dan. Or Ken even. I feel like that was...

That was one of the things that when I read the script, it was just a detail. And obviously, like I had caught up in the show a little bit, so I knew about it. But that was something the script informed me of, so to speak. But we didn't really discuss it. But one thing I'll say is that when we, Milo and I all the time, especially outside of the Vietnam stuff, like all the stuff within that Pearson home,

that, Pearson Home, all those scenes, there was something that felt very...

very lived in already. It felt like it was all laid out for us and we were just like, you know when you're acting in something and you're like, oh, I'm kind of just like living this other parallel life. It felt like that. It felt, and we would look at each other sometimes and unspoken looks to each other where we would be like,

This works. Yeah, that's there. That feels right. Nothing ever really felt like out of... I guess rhythm is the wrong word, but it felt like nothing ever felt out of rhythm in that sense. The scene of you two getting ready to go watch the draft at a bar was one of those scenes where I was just like, this just feels...

can feel this tension. Like this decades-old tension in this house. - Yeah. - Between... - Yeah, the history, familiarity. - The four of you were in this living room and it's just like really painful just to watch you be in the room together. - Yeah. There's also this sort of... Nikki is, I mean, to simplify,

Feeling fairly pessimistic about what's going to transpire and Jack's like nah man. You're gonna be fine. Yeah, he feels doomed He feels doomed he feels doomed and the original title of this script, which I loved was called born lucky, right? Because we've this is something that his mom tells him over and over and over again lucky say you were born lucky Yeah, because the nurse we find out has told your mother that

That this is going to be a lucky baby. Because of the number 18. Because of the number 18 and what would have happened if he was born like...

The next day. It shows that you're born. Go ahead. No, no. I was just going to say, wasn't it his, it would have been his grandfather's birthday, right? Correct. Jack's father's father's birthday. By like three minutes. Yeah. They show the clock and you were, it's like. Right under the gun. Yeah. If he'd been born 10 minutes later. Yeah. So like 1140. It would have been October 19th. Right. And then he wouldn't have gotten drafted. Yeah. Yeah.

So they go. And because you said to him before, it's like if it happens, like we'll figure it out. Like, do you have a plan or something? And this is where the Superman thing comes in. He's like, you've always been my Superman, always come to save the day and and fix things, et cetera, et cetera. And they get to the bar. And I think October 18th is like the fifth.

is the fifth one. - First date called, yeah. - Right, so you go in and you can, as an audience member, I felt the anticipation of like, it's gonna hit, isn't it? And they do the first one, you're like, all right, cool. So they're gonna do it second or something so they don't make it too dramatic. And the second one comes out and you're like, oh, it's still cool. Then the third one comes, you're like, all right, maybe, maybe shit's gonna work out. The fourth one happens, you're like, oh dude, Jack was right. And then the fifth one hits and you're like, oh.

And five is not normally where it comes. Improbable. I don't know. I think that was the real footage. That's what I was going to say. It must have been. I think it was. I think they used the real footage. Yeah, I think you're right. The traumatic level of stress on a nation to have to sit down

What was it? What were they doing? Once a week or once a... Once a week feels very often. But it clearly was like a planned thing. And it happened more than once. The draft, as far as the history of our country goes, is that only in Vietnam? Was there a draft for the World Wars? I thought there were other drafts. There were other drafts? Yeah, but I think that was the last draft. Sure. Got it. My dad, I just last...

Last Christmas, I got my parents one of these storytelling websites. Okay. You can put your information in to share with them. Yeah, and they send you a prompt question to answer, and you can write a little story about your life. And it's like a good way to get stories you might not know how to get or have the context to get. But my dad...

about this time and how traumatic it was. - I can't imagine. - Like the waiting and the-- My dad eventually joined the National Guard. - Okay. - In an attempt to delay his draft because National Guardsmen were the last to be sent overseas. - Oh, really? Okay. - And so he joined in San Francisco and ended up on like a riot patrol protecting fire trucks in San Francisco at the time. And he just kept going.

He just has all these stories, and apparently he missed going by like one or two rounds. Okay. Wow. So how was your past? My dad was born in 47. Okay. Oh, wow. My dad was born in 41. What'd you look up? I was checking your Wikipedia. On Michael's Wikipedia, it says my dad, 43. No, no, I knew that. Oh. I knew that. I was just seeing what his fourth movie was. I mean, so...

When I knew that season three was going to have this Vietnam storyline sort of woven into the fabric of the show, I realized that I knew nothing about this time period and I started the Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam. Did you? Yes.

Wow. It's mind-blowing. It's mind-blowing. I highly recommend. I mean, like all Ken Burns, there's so much information to chew on that I don't. And also, this is like, what, 2018? I really don't remember much. But I remember just being so fascinated. And not that it had anything to do with my character storyline, but I was like, this is

This is a great like reason to delve into it. And man, I couldn't recommend it highly enough. That draft scene, that draft lottery scene, I think was the one day that I was around that Tim O'Brien was on set. Oh, wow. So I was so happy. And he was just, you know, I was able to talk to him a little bit over the course of production and everything.

read his book and it just was, he never, and he never stopped being like so helpful and effusive about the whole show and how it's being treated and everything. But he was, him being there that, that day gave it another air of like something in the atmosphere that felt, you know, that was, that,

Like weighted? Yeah, very weighted. Yeah. Yeah, that scene was, I think in the entire, my experience of the show was my favorite scene. Yeah, it was a great scene. Just because, just exactly for what you guys are saying, it's like what a moment in history for these people

young men and like I remember at the time my brother was 19 and you know these people were 19 18 19 that is nothing that is nothing you know and that is just still hard to comprehend how you know what's at stake really and what's being decided for them more That Was Us after this short break

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I was just going to keep going with the next thing that happened in the episode. Yeah, yeah. Is you guys go home and your dad rolls up on you and he sort of puts his hands on your shoulders and he says, make me proud, son. Right? And it sort of hits you for the first time, too.

in a small way, that maybe Nikki's relationship to his dad may be slightly different than Jack's relationship to his dad. Because I don't ever think I would see Jack's dad roll up on him in any situation and say anything remotely positive. Yeah, and even the physical...

Touching. Like the fact that I don't think we ever saw his dad touch Jack. Right. You know what I'm saying? And maybe that's because he's the youngest or whatnot, but... That is an interesting thing to point out for sure. That's something that I felt like very powerfully in that moment. But they sort of already come up with like, look, I know a guy... In Canada. In Canada, all we got to do is get across the border. You'll be fine. And he's like... You can see Nikki's just like...

I got to do something, I guess. Because at that point in time, understandably so, in his mind, the equation is this means I'm going to die. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Like that was sort of clear. You know what I'm saying? Like people aren't talking about, oh, well, you know, I'll go do a few tours and then I get to serve my, no, like you don't know what's going to happen here. This could be a death sentence, right? One of the ways that him and Jack are so different, because I feel like if Jack were drafted, he wouldn't have that.

He's not, he doesn't think of it as a death sentence. Yeah. Nikki, for whatever reason is cut from a different cloth, so to speak. And they're like, no, I'm not going to make it. Yeah. He's either, you know, smart enough to,

It's like my younger brother when he went on one audition once and was thinking about being an actor when he was very young. And then he went on one audition and he was like, no, I'm never doing that again. Why would I do that again? I think Nicky looks at that realistically and is like, I'm not coming out of that. I'm not. And maybe it's Jack's own ignorance, confidence, how he's built versus how Nicky's built. But he's like, no, I'm...

I'm, that's not happening. That's not my fate. Yeah. You know, if I go, I'm not coming back. Right. And they make it all the way up and they're, they're staying in the, in the motel overnight and they said the next morning, well,

We'll get you across the border. Yeah. But when Jack wakes up, Nikki is gone. He's gone. He's written him a note. And there's a note. Yeah. Jack, thanks for always taking care of me. But it's my turn to save the Dave now. Love you. CK. Nice. He says CK. He says CK, referencing Clark Kent. Referencing Clark Kent. And so it's almost as if

Nikki said, I got to stop having other people sort of come to the rescue for me. And specifically Big Brother. Specifically him, right? But what does Jack do? So the next flashback, right, is him going to the doctor. Is that correct? I'm going to make sure. He goes to the doctor to get a physical and whatnot. Yeah.

He's in good health because he's Milo. Yeah. And also, I just love seeing, was it a tighty-whitey shot? Yeah. Oh, yeah. High rise. Guys, just real quick pause. There was a time in the history of this country where as a young man, the only underwear that were available to you were tight, hugging pants.

stark white underwear. - With that navy blue and gold stripe around the-- - You know what I'm saying? Let me tell you, let me tell you. I'm gonna be honest here. My mom had me start doing my laundry when I was nine or 10 because she's like, "I'm not doing this anymore, bro." Why is she not doing this anymore? Streak marks, bro. Streak marks. - Thank you for being honest. - Wow, we're really getting somewhere. - Thank you for being honest. - Streak marks are where we're real.

When I woke up this morning and I was like, you know, when we get into this Vietnam episode. We're definitely going to talk about streak marks. We better, we better, Sterling, better be honest. About the streak marks. We're always on. On his underwear. People depend on us for unadulterated honesty. And. Where else are they going to get it? Let me tell you something. Let me tell you something. As soon as colored underwear became available. Yes.

Kyle, please. You broke your song. All day. Deep blues. Deep blues. Deep blues. Mahogany. Mahogany. Whatever it took. Mahogany. To cover the crack. Also, I got older and became more thorough. Sure. Excuse me. Good store manager. Where do you keep your mahogany briefs?

briefs they would have a white band let me ask as long as we're being honest have you carried on the the tighty whitey the boxer brief is exclusive yeah because we're gonna go there I did go with boxers for a while yeah um

And then I would wear my boxers so long, guys, like I was still growing. Yes. That my thighs would start to get big. Yeah. I would cut the side. No, stop it, Sterling. You're an incredible hulk. Mandy Moore's side. Yeah, like jean shorts. Like jean shorts. Brown rocked loincloth. Just a flap in the front and a flap in the back. That's all I needed. Coverage. Yeah. I just needed coverage. But then because. Just another layer. Because I also have strong thighs. Yes. Didn't like the chafe. Yeah.

Sure. Because you have loose fabric. Sure. Nothing to protect in between. Yeah. So when the boxer brief came, it was like, why didn't we not think of this all along? Yeah. You know, you have coverage. My thighs aren't touching anymore. And their colors? Choplis. Yeah. That's what I'm saying.

This was very informative. So here's another one. Listen, MeUndies, if you're listening, we're here. We're here for you. Wonderful addendum. Here's another one for you. So we find out in this physical that Jack has a slightly irregular heart...

- An arrhythmia, right? - An arrhythmia, right? So it doesn't cause anything necessarily, but it's a reason for him not to get drafted. So he was sort of exempt from it. Which is a good story point because it's like, we're worried about him, but why aren't we worried about Jack? - Yeah, why wouldn't he get drafted? - Jack is exempt from this whole thing, right? But he can choose to enlist, which is, I'm sort of confused on that 'cause sometimes things keep you, like eyesight wise, if you wanna be a pilot, you can't do it because of a certain thing. But evidently he can enlist, but he can't be drafted.

I don't know if that's a story point thing or whatnot, but it was... Well, they're essentially... He's talking to this doctor about how to get around it. How to get around it. Do 100 push-ups before you go in and then just say you're kind of nervous about it. There are a lot of people who felt an obligation and a duty who were... Weren't able to. Who weren't able to and tried to figure out ways to get around it. And he talks about to his doctor in the story, he's like, he's my little brother, doc. Like...

My only job is to take care of him. I need to be where he is. I need to be where he is. He's not doing well. He sent this letter back saying, is that at that point? Yeah. Yeah. He sent this letter, said he's, you know, gotten something 15. Article 15. Article 15 or whatnot. So like Nick, he's just having mental problems. He's not just locked into this whole thing. Maybe he's causing harm to folks around him or to himself. I got to go be there with him. Now here's the actual side note. Legit.

I have something called a PVC, which is called like a pre-ventricular contraction, which means every once in a while, I have an irregular heartbeat. Found out when I went to the gym or whatnot,

Right before Army Wives. And I used to go real hard. I would try to burn 1,200 calories in an hour. What? That's a lot. That's a lot. Why? Because I was that dude. What were you eating? I was that dude. A lot. I mean, have you guys not seen Paradise? I know. Episode three in the shower. But, but, like...

And so I don't know if I had drank enough water. So this is... The answer is you didn't. Yeah. Okay. So I go to the drinking fountain. Yes. And I bend over to have a sip and I get a little spotty. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure. And so I was fine. I took my drink and then I sat against the wall. And then I started to slide down the wall. And I just sat on the floor of the 24-hour fitness. Yes.

For 17 of the 24 hours. If you've ever been to 24-hour fitness. You don't want to sit on the floor. You don't want to sit on the floor. No, because they're open 24 hours. And so basically, I'm sitting on the floor. There's no time to clean. I'm sitting on the floor just like this. And people are walking by like, how you doing, man? I'm like, I'm great, bro. Thanks for asking. How many calories you burn? You know what I'm saying? And then they're like, are you okay? I'm like, I'm fine. And I was. I was like, I just know I need to sit here for a minute. Yeah.

So anyway. We're late. How long did you sit on the floor? Can you bring me a granola bar? Well, they called an ambulance because evidently they were like, you're not supposed to be sitting on the floor. He's been there for 45 minutes. Right. And I was totally fine. They IV'd me, et cetera, but I wound up finding out that I had this thing. And I've had it, and it's never been a problem. So you didn't try to burn 1,200 calories ever again? You still do. Now it's around 900.

still a lot. Now he knows how he just punches himself in the chest a couple of times. Sully, you speak to this.

Because we're heavier, whatever exertion we do, we'll burn more calories. I see. You understand what I'm saying? So like if I weighed less and I did the same thing, I'd burn not as much. I appreciate that you included me in your fitness category. That was very kind of you. I'm saying that because people can be surprised how many calories we can burn because we're bigger. You wouldn't believe the amount of calories I can eat. Burn. Burn. Burn.

That was a quick tangent. Because when I... I mean, just to work out with a trainer, we aim for like 400, 500. Yeah. But even that's... Really? That's pushing it. It feels like a lot. Here's the thing. Well, I am curious. This is a full-on tangent at this point. Go ahead. Do it. Do it. Because... Okay. So I...

When Maya was doing Mr. and Mrs. Smith, she was training for the show and she started training with this trainer and I started training with them too. And they were great. They would really work you. And I've gone to the gym. I've worked out. I've played sports my whole life. However, when I would work out with these people, I would always be like, I'm either going to shit my pants, throw up or pass out. And I...

I don't want to feel that every day. No, you don't. And so it is the feeling of being like,

I'm finding that I want to be pushed, obviously. But I don't want to kill myself. Unless I'm really starting to... I'll explain it to you. The trick is I try to do that to myself so that no one can do it to me more than I do it to me. That's it. I don't have that kind of discipline. Mandy Moore, you climb mountains. Yeah, but I don't know. You've given birth. You know what I'm saying? Tree time. Sure, sure, sure, sure. Tree time. But...

But that kind of physical exertion, like that you're making that choice just doesn't appeal to me. I'm like, I'll walk slowly on an incline on a treadmill. That feels good. Which is great. Zone two cardio. I do that too. Hey, let me tell you. Zone two cardio. Wait, 12 incline, 30 minutes. Zone two cardio is the best. It is. I love it. Shout out to Peloton. Shout out to Peloton. Shout out to Peloton. Shout out to Peloton. Shout out to Peloton.

Because I have a long gait, right? And my wife teases me about this. Sully, you know about long gait. I do, in fact. I can walk normally at about like a 4'4". Comfortable walk. Fairly comfortably. That's a quick walk for me. Fairly comfortably. And my wife, when we go walking, I have to... That's when I walk backwards. Her little feet are like this. I have a longer gait as well. You have a longer gait. My husband's always like, slow down. I'm like, you're walking too slow. Yeah.

I can keep up with you. You can keep up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 4-4 feels like a good speed. Yeah, I can walk. The highest speed is about a 5-5. No, that's a jog. But I can do it for like a minute. Okay. But why? Why do that? Oh, do the hips start? Let's talk more about the show. I just got to look from time to be like, are you guys going to keep going? We're almost at the end. This is what people...

one from this podcast. These are really good takes. Zone 2 cardio is where they want to be. We are at the Zone 2 cardio equivalent of talking about this. That's right. I've literally just got a little hot just talking about Zone 2 cardio. So I think it's Zone 1 and a half right now. One of the last things in the flashback that we see that was one of the more powerful images for me in this episode was in the flashback after Nikki

Nikki is born. Yeah. Young Jack and Stanley are standing at the window looking at all of these babies. Yeah. And Stanley is telling little Jack, now remember, big brothers look out for their little brothers. That's right. It's their only job. It's the only thing that matters. Hmm.

Which is maybe the greatest thing his dad has said to him. He even says, like, he's like, and all these guys had the same birthday as your little brother. And it almost felt like, if you guys know All My Sons by Arthur Miller, it kind of felt like they're all my sons. You can see Jack saying, like, oh, I got to go to this war, not just from this dude. Right. For all of them. But also, yeah, 18 years from now.

Every single baby in this room. Every little boy, yeah. If he is a... Yeah. So powerful. It is powerful. Good. Yeah. They're good writers. Really good writers. They nail it. They definitely do. Before we get to that one, though, there's the line that I love that Nikki has, and it sort of explains... Well, it'll be after we get to it, because we just got to it. I'm just...

Let's go back to it. Let's go back to it. If I miss it. No. I'm kidding. Go, go. What did I miss? Structurally, I think they're driving to Canada or to the border or whatnot. Yes, yes, yes. And Nikki says, it's weird how we look at our lives. Like, what's next? What happens next? Always moving forward.

I wonder if things would make more sense if you looked at everything in reverse. If you started at the end and moved backwards trying to figure out how you got there. Right? Which is what the episode does. Which is what the episode does. Which is what our show does. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Because one of the next things we see is when we go back again

Before we get to the birthday, right, is them playing football with each other, which is an echo to the boys throwing the football in the future of the episode. And you see that Nicky

My God, I was like, you can't catch a damn thing. He's absolutely terrible. And busts his glasses right in the face or whatever. And you see Jax was saying like, you know, I'll take care of you, man. He's like, you're tougher than you think. And he's like, you're Superman. And Superman wears glasses. He goes, no, he doesn't. He goes, he's just a tough guy in disguise, right? Clark Kent wears them. And one day folks will see just how tough you really are, right? Like he's always picking him up.

In a really sort of lovely way. Yeah. You know, he's seven years apart, the two of them. And you see it's just part of Jack's DNA to uplift. Yeah. Right? And then, so to that point when Nicky is born...

I think one of the more interesting developments that I thought was Stanley and who Stanley was as a dad. And how he's evolved. And how he changed because his dad comes in, one of my favorite character actors of all time, Michael Ironside. You know what I'm saying? Is he Jester? Who is he? Merlin in Top Gun? He's one of those two. Something like that. But he comes in and you see he's just...

Grizzled. Yep. You know, Burleigh, he gets there a little late. Depression era dad. Depression era dad. And you see Stanley sort of bright eyed and he's about to have a second kid and so excited. And his dad offers him a drink. He goes, come on, dad, you know I don't drink. Yeah. And we're like, we start this episode seeing his wife's black eye. Yeah. You know? And it's like, it makes, what happens?

What is it that transpires in the fabric of a life, you know, that causes somebody to go from bright-eyed and what have you to defeat it and hurting people wanting to hurt people? Yeah. You know? There's an omniscience, you know, in our show that demonstrates the... There's an... I don't know where the adage comes from, but the idea that if you knew...

anyone's story, there's nobody you can't forgive. Right. You know, there's nothing you can't forgive. Yeah. Because we all start as these little babies being born, all lucky. Sure.

to be born and then things unfold differently for all of us yeah that's that's most of that episode i think we got it yeah yeah and we were able to fit in some fun discussions about uh streaks and underwear streaks um go see sacramento when this episode drops i'm not sure uh

Will it still be in theaters? It will still be in theaters. If not, where can people find it? It'll be on Hulu in a couple months. But when is it in theaters now? It's in theaters now. So please, if you're watching right now, go see Sacramento. It's in theaters now starring Michael Angarano, Michael Cera, Maya Erskine, and Kristen Stewart. It's one of the best movies I've seen in a long time. Thanks, man. Thank you for being on the podcast. Thanks for having me. Thanks for coming and making the

It's so good to see you. And hopefully you can come back and talk to us again. I'd love that. Yeah. Maybe we'll get you and Griffin in here at the same time. Oh, that'd be cool. Dueling Nickies. Yeah. I like that. And we do have a fan segment today. Let's do it. So will you stick around and do that with us for a couple minutes? Great. We'll see you in a sec.

Ladies and gentlemen, I'm really excited about today's fan segment. We got an email from a listener and the subject line alone stopped us in our tracks. Yeah, as soon as we saw the healing power of This Is Us, we knew, had to read it. It was going to be something special. Yeah, Sterling, you want to kick it off? Let's do it, man. Okay, so this email is from Susie Foster. Again, the subject line is the healing power of This Is Us. And it starts, Mandy, Sterling, and Chris.

First, I want to thank you for creating the podcast. I've watched through the show a few times. It gets better with every watch. I didn't see the show when it first came out. My mom kept telling me to watch, so I finally gave in. I will admit I didn't know if I could keep watching the show at first. I was angry at how it got under my skin so quickly. I was mad at Jack.

furious with a fictional character. In my mind, no dad was that kind of dad. He was too perfect.

Then he wasn't. Okay, sorry. Then he wasn't. Then he wasn't. All of us. No. This show made me a blubbering mess for many reasons. It would take hours to write them all down. My personal connection to the story starts with the theme of alcoholism. My father was an alcoholic. I believe he became one because of his service in the Vietnam War. He came back physically, but mentally, barely at all. Hmm.

He died nine years ago and I never got to say goodbye. Beyond that, I never got to repair our distant relationship. This show, the Vietnam episodes in particular, clicked into place that first trickle of healing. Jack wasn't perfect, but he tried. He made amends and he gave his children and Rebecca all the love that they deserved. My dad wasn't perfect.

I spent so much time being angry at him and didn't believe it when he said, I love you, bud. The nickname he gave me as a child. Now I know he did love me. That was a mind-altering step toward healing. All because of This Is Us. Thank you for creating such a life-changing show. Sincerely, Susie Foster.

This is that type of stuff that you just don't, like, in the making of it, you're like, how will this apply? How will this apply to someone's life? What context or way in to a feeling or a life experience does someone need? And this show just has thousands of them. It does. Thousands and thousands of ways in. Like, this whole idea, like, she was mad.

She was mad because she was seeing something that was too good to be true. And then it became even more resonant when it was like, oh, he's not too good to be true. He's someone who's actively wrestling with a part of his past that he doesn't know where to put, but he's trying to carve out the space still to share love, to share goodness with the people who are closest to him. And that idea that when he used to say it, her dad,

that he loved her, that she's like, didn't believe it. And then watching a show, right? Like not to minimize, sometimes I think we can minimize and be like, oh, you know what? We got this cool little show that has a nice little message or whatnot. But the power of art for people to be seen and validated in these feelings or whatnot and to illuminate a perspective that like, oh man, maybe he actually did love me.

And maybe I just couldn't accept it for what it was because I thought it should look a particular way. Yeah. Right? Like, that's that shit right there, bro. Like, I...

Thank you, Susie, for sharing that. Michael, any thoughts? It's so powerful. And it's, I'm just thinking in my head, the amount of times that, you know, what goes into making anything and so many decisions, it feels very technical. Sometimes you feel emotionally detached from it. And then the making of something is always different. But once something is out there, how it becomes subjective and it becomes, you never know

how somebody's watching something, what's going on with them that day, what's happened in their lives. But, you know, something that you do, especially when it's on television, especially when, you know, millions of people are watching it. What I feel like this show did and does so well is it opens a vault. Yeah. And that vault, it allows people to...

and think about things that are really personal and it allows them to be affected by something. And it's just...

It's amazing how, you know, the vault that this show unlocked in that and how, you know, intimately it affected so many people. It's funny. We often talk about, like, the specificity of this family and these stories. Like, it feels so hard to think that, like, there would be universal in the specificity, but there is, you know? Yeah.

I also think like the connection that people are finding in this particular storyline with the Vietnam connection and how often maybe men of that generation were not willing to sort of open themselves up in the way that Jack also kept that part of his life very secretive. There is something probably cathartic about seeing that story portrayed on screen as well. It's so far away from us. Yeah. Right. It's so the idea of that time and that war and that place is,

And the way that people lived and the things that they went through so far away that it's oftentimes hard to come to a place of compassion or understanding or understanding.

Yeah. And to have these little moments where you can, where, oh, that person, that the person, Jack looks like my dad in this scenario. Yeah. Giving you permission to unlock that little piece of you. Yeah. And, and to wonder if any of this applies to your story and, and to, to reframe it in a compassionate understanding way is, is.

an incredible opportunity and just to give him a you know nice shout out and credit like when i because again i i kind of caught up with the show once i got it but i remember watching the scene with you and milo and i remember thinking how great you guys are and and there was just this moment that he had where when he's telling you he's drunk and he says i'm drunk right now

And I'm like, wow, that is such... What made it so powerful to me is that he didn't seem it. And that's true. Anybody who knows people who are functioning, alcoholics or drug addicts or anything, it's like, yeah, he's not playing. It was just so tastefully and well done, I thought, in that moment. I just love...

Just to go back to this letter, just that specific moment of, you know, somebody you know who is, you know, really struggling with that. And it's not always apparent. Keeping something from you. And he did it so well. Yeah. Amen. Incredible. Thank you, Susie. Thank you, Susie. Thank you to young Nikki Pearson. Michael Angarano. Michael Angarano for joining us. Thanks, guys. And will you look into that camera and say that was us? That was us.

That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. That was us.