#11. Brett & Bruce: A Startup Farewell
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Hello brothers and sisters, welcome to The Honest Drink. Hope everyone's enjoying these last few weeks of summer. Last chance to get some sun on those legs. And I don't know about you, but I'm excited for the fall. It's actually my favorite season here. And I'm sorry if we haven't been releasing trailers for the last two episodes. I know some of you enjoy listening to the trailers so that you get an idea of what the week's episode will be about. But I've been caught up in a few things real busy lately, so again, I apologize.

Also, I want to mention if you ever want to reach out to us, whether it's just feedback or topic ideas you want to hear us cover on the show, or even if you or someone you know would like to come on as a guest, you can always email us at thehonestdrink at gmail.com. That's thehonestdrink, one word, at gmail.com. And we can start a discussion there and see where it goes.

Also, if you're enjoying The Honest Drink, don't forget to subscribe and leave a rating or review. Let us know how we're doing, alright? Now, today is a very special episode, and it's special for a few reasons I get into later. But today's guests are two gentlemen who are always a blast to talk to.

They were two very integral pieces in a startup called CargoCard. This company was established in China back in 2008 and went from just a budding startup to now a leading player in their industry. Now, what is their industry? CargoCard is a leading financial technology or fintech company that focuses on innovative mobile payment and prepaid card distribution solutions in China and all over Asia.

So these two gentlemen were a huge part of the success of the company. They were there since the early days, fighting in the trenches and getting their hands dirty. Their names are Bruce Chen and Brett DeColis. So in this episode, they talk about what it's like managing a startup in China, especially from two people who grew up in the West and had never spent any time in China before this.

And not only do they talk about the struggles of a startup, but we listen to their commentary on Chinese business culture and other social cultural barriers that they had to adapt to. We also talked about the whole work hard, play hard mentality, which trust me, these guys took to a whole new level. I know this because I've witnessed it personally throughout the years. And we touch upon the importance of building a family within your work life.

Creating real bonds and friendships with the people you work with and for, which leads us to finish the episode talking about our friend, David Suzuki, who is no longer with us. And Bruce shares his firsthand account as he was with David when he very suddenly passed away over a year ago. He was not only a dear friend and mentor to Bruce and Brett, but he was also the charismatic leader and CEO of Cargo Card. It's also important to note

That since the recording of this episode, both Bruce and Brett have left Shanghai for reasons we get into in the podcast. Bruce has moved back to Australia to be near family, but still works closely with Cargo Card. And Brett has left the company and now spends his time with his wife and son traveling the world. It was truly a great time talking with them. And they definitely put some perspective on what and who are truly important in your life.

So please give it up for Bruce Chen and Brett DeColis. I love you so much. You're living in a place of hope.

I mean like we have oh okay I just wanted I just wanted we've gotten quite on the show

See if we've, you know, spiced things up a little. Cheers, man. Cheers. Well, cheers, guys. Thanks for having us. Thanks for coming. Thanks for coming. It's really quite an honor. Wow. This might go down a little bit too easy. This might go down way too easy. Do you taste that? Wow. Yeah. I feel like I could do that all day.

That was really smooth. It's got some honey notes. Notes of honey. Wow, you don't need ice at all. I don't think you need ice at all. You can make the back of that bottle thing. Yeah, let's see if there's anything. An exquisite traditional whiskey given a unique modern twist. Our innovative rum cask finish adds extra sweet and exotic notes, creating a rich, decadent, and

luxurious single malt. Can I just cut in for a second? Have you thought about doing voiceover? That was pretty good, huh? You had that tone into your voice. While you were reading that, I was just imagining a guy in an old-fashioned typewriter just like typing out. I feel like I need a cigar and a nice blazer. This is beautiful. This is really nice. This is beautiful. This is delicious. Very good, huh?

All right, so we're going to be drinking a lot of this during the show, I guess. That's definitely going to disappear. That's definitely going to disappear. So I really want to thank you guys for coming over. And I'm glad we're getting to do this now because I know you're leaving China, Brett. You're moving out of here. So I'm really glad we're getting a chance to kind of sit down and do a little podcast before you leave.

You guys have been working together for several years now, right? How many years has it been? Five years together, right? So I joined in 2013, as you did as well. From 2013 to now. So I've been six years with the company. And so six years. Same as me. So we've all known each other for quite a while. So I just want to give everyone a background of what you guys do. So you guys work at Cargo Card, right? Been working together for several years. And when you guys joined, it was very much a startup at that time.

right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so basically, uh, so I know the backstory really well, so I had to pitch this many times. Um, but basically at the time that I joined the company, uh,

We had just raised a funding round, a Series B round. But the main business that we were trying to build in China was the gift card distribution. So in the U.S., you know, you see all those cards in the grocery stores. Like, you know, it's a huge business there. But in China, it didn't exist like that. There was a lot of prepaid cards. It was all those, like, gas cards and telecom, China mobile cards. But they were mostly sold B2B, like, in huge volumes and a lot of –

under the table money and that kind of, it was that kind of business and that kind of product. So we were saying like, well, could this be a consumer market? But at that time we had not launched anything in retail stores. So it was still very much that B2B

And so when Bruce and I had joined, I kind of joined with the intention of being more of a finance and data guy, pulling out all of our transaction data and looking at how can we sell more cards. Bruce was helping to launch stores. You were going into stores and measuring them, where can we put our racks and do all this. So everybody's kind of doing a lot of everything. Yeah.

So very much that startup environment and it was kind of a very different pace at least from what I've been doing. - Was it difficult? I mean doing startup in China, I mean I know the, you could talk a little bit about the founder, right? So like their background,

where they're from and not being Chinese, right? Coming to China, creating a platform, really. What was that like? Yeah. So David Suzuki and Ashmit Bhattacharya, they are the two founders of the company. Ashmit more on the technical side. He's kind of the technical co-founder. And David had a VC background. So he had been working in different funds in Silicon Valley for like a decade, right?

Basically investing in deals. At a certain point, he got bored of that and he said he wanted to come to China and start a company. And Ashmit was the technical brains behind building out that whole business that you see in the U.S. where all those gift cards are. He did that for, it was basically a company within Safeway Groceries called Blackhawk Groceries.

And basically Blackhawk was an experiment that turned into its own billion dollar company.

I think for me, when I came to China, I met Ashmit and Dave, and I knew I wanted to do something a little bit less corporate than before, but I also wasn't sure I was ready to kind of start my own thing. But I felt like, okay, we got the right people here, right? So for me, I felt at that point I was super naive because I had never really spent much time in China before. Don't speak the language. Yeah, don't speak Chinese, you know,

I was pretty much very naive about everything. But I figured we have two good players at the table, somebody who can execute it and somebody who can help us get it funded. So with that put together, I felt like at least it's worth giving it a shot. I think we actually had a shot at making this thing happen. So I felt a little bit confident about that, but...

I don't know what your experience was going into it, kind of given everything that came in. Yeah, absolutely. I didn't know where to start. But I think you also had coming into China, being able to meet David and Ashmit through mutual friends, I think. And then you also were here for relationship reasons too with Monica. So your reasons of coming here and then taking that point to work at Cargo Card. Yeah.

was very interesting too. And then sort of how I joined, which I thought was pretty amazing, was actually a month after Brett had started. And then he was actually part of my interview.

I thought these guys had been there for many years. Didn't know that he'd been there. Oh, so Brett was sitting in on your interview. I'd been with the company for like a month or two. But right away, I started going in there and I'm like, you know, I'm rolling up my sleeves and I'm kicking ass and just doing whatever I can. So Dave's like, all right, start doing interviews. And so I'm like, all right. So you hired Bruce. Oh, well, actually, it's pretty interesting. Him and Hubert were the ones that actually interviewed me. Oh, Hubert was there. And Hubert had started at the same time as Brett, right?

right? Yeah, he started a few months before me. Oh, okay. So, Hubert's another mutual friend and

Yeah, and I came in because Dave was like trying to recruit me a few times and then he was like hey There's opportunity that we need someone that's bilingual that so after we want to bring iTunes into Asia, right? Why don't you think about that? And at that time I was actually ready to go back to Sydney and I went to Sydney for a week and I was like, oh man This place is so boring. I'm not used to like I miss out all the sort of the buzzy the busyness of life and The pace right I was missing that

All my friends are married and they're settled down, so it's even hard to, like, even hang out with them. And it was just a different feeling when I even hung out with them because I felt like, you know, I'm drinking and they're just like, whoa, it's a weekday. It's only, like, midday. What are you doing? So I felt like there was a bit of a...

A culture shock there, too. See, well, that brings me to something because I've known you guys for a long time. Obviously, I know Kyle Card and I knew David. But from the outside looking in, right? From the outside looking in, I always felt you guys had this kind of culture or...

Whether it was just you or company-wide, I don't know, but of this kind of whole work hard, play hard mentality. Yeah. Right? So was that something that came from David or was that just something that was a kind of cultural thing or was that just you two kind of just your own philosophies and how you wanted to work or?

Like, what was it, you know? Or was it just the nature of the business itself, you know, where you had to entertain a lot? Right, right, right. For me, I think it evolved. Like, obviously, I met David at a poker game through mutual friends, F&B, and there was drinking involved there. I think that's when we started first playing dice because Dave was really into his dice. And then it sort of just evolved from there internally. I think when I started working and I met Brett and Hubert, we kind of clicked along.

And then they were like, oh, you hang out with Dave, we do drinks. And it was kind of like a nice coming together of people because it wasn't like, oh, CEO, CEO, you don't talk to him. Well, see, that was the fascinating dynamic because you guys were just like, it didn't feel like, you know, like, oh, boss, and you're an employee. It didn't feel like a normal working relationship. It was really a brotherhood.

You guys are truly friends. And you guys, for lack of a better word, as hard as you guys worked, and you guys worked really hard because I know the growth of the business today is largely in part due to YouTube. That's true. So as hard as you guys worked, you guys, at least from the outside looking in, you guys played just as hard. Yeah. You guys were out. You guys were drinking. You guys, you know.

and most people might get burnt out by that. So I, so my question is like, I just don't know where that was. Was that just a cultural thing or was that just the nature of the business you had to kind of, kind of, kind of do? I, uh,

There was a few things. And maybe we started putting, like, you know, we started naming things. We started doing things which were called tradition. You know, like there was periods where if we thought I was going to close a big deal, I'd go on a bender. And that bender meant that, you know, continuously you're drinking until that deal is closed. And then for some reason it started working. And then I was like, well, why change it, right? Yeah.

- So it was like a little superstitious at that point. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So who started those traditions? - Dave. - Dave. - Dave had all this, yeah. - I think one of the things, at least from my standpoint, so when I came in to the company, again, before that I'm living in San Diego, beach life,

I don't really drink that. I mean, we drink on the weekends and stuff like that, but it's mostly like a barbecue. Have a few beers. Have a few beers. That was the crazy day. You know, people in Southern California, so maybe you smoke more pot or do stuff like that. But then I come here and it's very much a part of the business culture, right? Yeah.

But I think even more than that, I think what started to evolve was the fact that, you know, Dave, when he was kind of setting up the company and then after we had raised that round or as we were raising that round, he started to do some big hires, hiring, you know, an executive management team, many of which were Chinese or, you know, like Chinese people who had studied overseas, so bilingual people.

and kind of setting the path of like, okay, I need this local team that's going to carry the company forward. And then very quickly, people like myself and Bruce and Hubert started to step up and actually deliver a lot of the results. And so he kind of realized, I think from his point, and he used to say this, he's like, you know, you guys are my most surprising best hires because at the end of the day, there are very few people I can really count on.

And I think what happens is we start building that trust at a business level, and we see each other every single day. And then we also realize that we're really good friends. We share a lot of the same taste and humor, and we're always kind of busting balls about the same things. Yeah.

So it just kind of starts to evolve from, I shouldn't even say evolve. It's sort of like the culmination of like the trust that exists between friends and the trust that exists between good colleagues or good teams that work together. And then we kind of had this double factor of like, so we're building trust on two levels. And so we really, you know, build these very strong relationships.

relationships with each other. So I think that that sort of snowballed everything so that we're like, yes, we are working super hard. We're also playing really hard. And I think part of it is

part of the Chinese business culture, we are entertaining clients and doing things like that. Part of it is that we're just, you know, you know, foreigners in China, and we're kind of just figuring out this whole thing together. So we rely on each other. And there's a trust network that's built around that. And so I think the culmination of all those things together really accelerates the pace at which we moved both, I think, in the business and

outside of the business. So was it just the core, you, like you, Herbert, like Brett Bruce, Herbert, and David, right? Was that the kind of core group? You guys had quite a few and still have quite a few. There's quite a few people, but like I never, I don't know, to me, Carl Card is like you four. Like I don't know anyone else and it's like when we go out, it's just like, is this you four? So it just felt like a little fraternity within the company.

Well, I think definitely us at the friendship level were just very, very close, still are. You know, obviously David has passed, but Hubert, Bruce, and I still hang out all the time. Yeah.

But I think beyond that also, there's other people in the company and very important people in the company. But I think it's all about personalities, right? And I think that there are certain people you just gravitate towards and you click with. And maybe part of it is like an age thing. Part of it is a maturity thing. Part of it is just who you are as a person. And so I think for us,

We're particularly close, but a lot of other people in the company are obviously super critical, and we're also close at a friendship level, just not super, super close. We try to bring people in too, right? Hal worked with us. Oh yeah, that's right. We had a little internal group. We were like, come be part of this quick. So part of the company, but we still try to have a fun time and chill out. Most of the time we're talking

not bad shit about the company, we're just talking about the bad problems that we're encountering. And during those sessions, we actually-- - It's actually true, yeah. - We figure out how to navigate that together, right? Like sometimes, Hubert's like, oh, just talk to such and such. I'm like, oh, okay, Hubert, thanks. Like sometimes at work, you don't get that, you know, five or 10 minutes of that person's time because they're busy doing something else. But because we have that extended period where we're just chilling out and then shooting the shit and being really blunt about work, like that sucks, that decision's crap, how did that happen?

We talk about it and then be like, okay, that was that. You bring a different level of honesty, I think, when you're outside of the office because, again, there are other people at the company and some of them are, you know, employees under me. I can't compromise my team's attitude towards the organization. I don't want them to leave and I don't want them to just – You don't want to undermine anything. I don't want them to be stressed either. Like, you know, part of our responsibility in the management is that we take on the burdens of, you know, like –

we need to go raise money. We're running tight on cash or, you know, this customer is going to leave us or this, that kind of thing. That's like what we take on. But I think when we took that outside of the office, we could really, you know, be critical of ourselves. We can be critical of other people without having rumors get started because it, uh, it sort of became this little war room that we could, uh, you know, hash out a lot of the issues of the business and, and,

As a result of that, I think the business was able to make quick moves because the next day, like, you know, for example, if, you know, Bruce had an issue and Hubert was like, you know, talk to this guy. Let me make this call for you. Okay, maybe I know somebody who can help. All of a sudden, we're solving things that may otherwise not even get raised if you're just sitting within the confines of the office. So I think it created a pretty...

good dynamic, probably not the healthiest dynamic in terms of damage to our team. I think Bruce had to spread out the pimple on his eye. Dude, that was for a loose time, right? I think we need to establish this level that we're talking about here. We all understand, because we're talking a lot because we know each other.

If anybody watches this, they're going to see what we're talking about. So I think we need to establish the standard of like, what does it mean when we're saying like, play hard, work hard? What does it mean like, oh, in China, like doing business here is a certain way and you have to adapt. What does it mean to have that difference between if you had this company in America, would it be different? Would you have lived it differently, you know, day to day? Would it be different as opposed to doing it here? I just want to...

Talk about that. Yeah. So sure. Like, so inherently, I mean, what we're doing in China was essentially trying to take an American and in other parts of the world, uh, but let's, let's call it an American business model that was tried and true proven itself and trying to basically bring that into China. Um, I think, uh,

Again, what was my role in that? I started doing finance, but as the business started to really materialize and we just realized we needed more hands on deck to do things, I started doing things like account management and client relations. I started doing things like business strategy.

helping organize the teams we would put together, like little tiger teams to work on this initiative and that initiative. How do we improve this part of our technology? How do we employ the right people to do certain parts of our operations, these things?

And then I kind of eventually kept moving up. I took over our finance function as a whole. And now I serve as the senior vice president of the company, basically leading two parts of our business. One that evolved on the back of the gift cards is we also do now all of the mobile payments. WeChat and Alipay for the convenience stores that are available.

our technology plugs into. So that's a lot of transactions and a lot of GMV and then we layer a lot of services on top of that not just doing a payment but we also push like digital ads and things like that so it's kind of turned into like a marketing ad tech network on top of payments and gift cards. And then

And then another thing that I do is that we got really good at printing gift cards in China to support our business in China. And then that kind of caught the eye of global players like Amazon that we worked with in China. And then they said, can you just print our cards like for the US and Japan and other markets? I said, yeah. And that evolved into being a pretty huge business, one of the most sizable businesses for us from a profitability standpoint.

So those are the things that I run, and they actually have nothing to do with finance and where I came from in the finance and data world. It's actually like P&L, running a business. Is there any type of... I mean, just... I can only speak generally because I don't know your field that well, but generally speaking...

Working in China not really speaking the language too well working with mostly Chinese employees I mean, what are some of the difficulties that you do it? Oh super hard So like the first so when I did first start with the company I was mostly doing finance and data right like that's how I learned the business I had to learn all of our metrics have is all that if we're a technology company, right? so basically like if a card is sold in a convenience store 7-eleven and

It has no value. It's just a piece of plastic. And then it gets zapped at the clerk, and that comes to our cloud. And then we have to analyze the data and then decide, okay, is this an Apple card? Is it an Amazon card? A Walmart card? We send it to the right party on the other side to authorize it and say, we got this request from our store. Do you approve it?

They approve it. We light up the card, basically activate it. And now within a matter of two seconds, that card can be taken to a Walmart store or taken to Amazon.com and used, right? Amazon.co. So that's the technology that powers everything we do in a transaction. So I just basically dug into the data to try to figure out

how does the business work? But all the data guys, all the IT guys were all like super local Chinese. So it basically forced me to learn Chinese. I just started to work with one of the data reporting guys and using a combination of Translate and just... Did you have like a Translate tool with you the whole time? Well, yeah, on my computer. Google Translate. You're like, look at what I wrote on my computer.

That's what I mean. But often we point to things and then I would say, what do you call this? What do I call that? You know, like, and then learn it and learn it. And then we just start to communicate and we actually have a really good rapport that I can ask him questions and he can explain to me like more complex things. Uh,

And that's how I started to kind of actually learn Chinese was more in that context. And I took learning Chinese pretty seriously. Like I would just, anytime I'd go out to the markets and stuff, I'm always asking questions and things like that. And then we also had a fair bit of bilingual staff. So navigating that environment, you know, I would say in the early days, I just had to jump in and try to learn Chinese. And it helped a lot. It helped a lot.

But that was probably one of the biggest challenges, and I think probably one of the challenges that a lot of people face. But I think that a lot of people get caught up on language, like, especially if you're trying to do business in a foreign country. Yeah, most people, that's the first thing they think about, like, oh, there's a language barrier, and that kind of stops them from pursuing it. Yeah, but there's a cultural barrier that's far bigger than any language, right? I mean, just understanding the concepts of, like, guanxi and, you know, face and how these things work, like, these are just...

There are things that exist everywhere in the world, but the way they exist in China are a little bit different. What about it? Explain it. Okay. Well, so for any listeners who don't know what guanxi is, guanxi is basically the Chinese word for relationship. But it's not the relationship between a guy and a girl. It's connections. Basically, it's what it is. You have connections. You have resources. You know somebody.

Oh, I know that guy. I know him. Yeah. So, you know, they'll pull strings for me. And so that's what, you know, typically what guanxi boils down to. And saving face. And yep. And then saving face is like kind of like face is kind of a respect thing. Right. So it's just like if somebody like it ties into guanxi in many ways, it's like if somebody does a favor for you, hey, I made this introduction for you and I got your product into this channel. And now you're kind of indebted to that person in a way. Right. And so.

if they call in a favor for you, you have to be able to reciprocate an equivalent, you know, favor back to them. And none of this gets explicitly spoken. You don't say, hey, I did this for you. Now you owe me this. It's all understood. And people, you know, you're kind of like, you're kind of keeping score in some ways, but you're not. But nobody ever says, hey, by the way, I did this for you. Can you hook me up? I need to call in that favor. You owe me.

It's just that I know, and then next time I'm doing something else that I think you can benefit from, boom, I bring it back to you. So it's how you actually earn favor with people is like, you know, one of the things that I learned was if I can make people on the other side look good, then they're going to do things for me. So with our business and gift card related stuff, yeah.

I would always go out of my way to try to make the people on the other side look very good about, hey, this promotion you did was very, very successful. I'll prepare the data. I'll do all the analysis. I'm basically doing their job for them. And then later on, they come back to me and say, hey, I got this marketing budget approved, and we could do more promotions. So then it comes back to me, and then we're doing even more stuff. So now I look good. It's reciprocation. But do you feel like business being done in America, let's say, since you're from America, is there a big difference?

yeah. So, so I think in America, one, there, there's a lot of legal, uh, ramifications to do things like this, right? Like the, uh, anti-stark, uh, uh, laws and, uh, a lot of company policies are actually just like, you can't do things, uh, you know, for your friends and they'll investigate, Hey, do you have a relationship to this person who you're giving the conflicts of interest? So, um,

And so, you know, in America, people are very, very sensitive about that. Now, it still happens, of course. But I think it's more like the internal politics within companies in America. Like, you know, people do favors for each other, and that's kind of fine. People are always going to do things for people they like, right? That's a human nature thing. So I don't know if that's necessarily American or Chinese politics.

But I think that the way that it happens in China, a lot of times we've just like, for example, as a foreign company or foreign management team, I know that we've lost deals strictly because of guanxi, strictly because we don't have that

relationship rooted yeah exactly where somebody is that kind of stuff happens everywhere that happens in the states as well in every country like just doing business and I'm sure you've experienced something like that in different fields I've experienced that in my field yeah

I think that's something universal. But what I think the conflict of interest thing, and when we're talking about the 关系 that exists in the States, is very different, I think, than what exists here. So that is more pertaining to, if you get in a position of power within a company, and you have an old buddy,

And that works for a vendor that you have or a client, you know someone. And then so you're pulling strings that are not really meant to be pulled at that point to kind of serve yourself versus the Guanxi and China kind of forces you to go out and make new relationships, make new connections. Whoever those vendors or people you're working with are,

because of this whole and reciprocation kind of thing, it forces you to be much more mindful of the relationship you're building, even with someone you don't know. But it could be a new working relationship. But you're very well aware of that, right?

So I feel like it's kind of, it's a little different, you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, here, so that's one of the, again, parts of the business. I think Bruce, he's one of our, you know, chief entertainment officers because, you know, you got to, you know, make people have a good time and or like, you know, have a good experience with you. You build trust, you build, you know, just compatibility with people, right?

And I think that's something that like Bruce has been coming back to the guanxi thing, right? I think what I've sort of encountered and what I've tried to come to understand is there's so many levels of layers of that. Like, I mean, there's superficial guanxi, right? Because I'm just scratching his back to help me scratch my back. Now there's other levels of guanxi where like,

I know Howie, he needs a little help with, you know, a vendor in some place. I'm like, yeah, no worries, I'll set it up. This guy's a good vendor. Howie's a good friend. That's a different kind of guanxi. It's kind of like getting things done quicker, right? And I think China's all about pace and speed. It's sharing resources. Right, sharing resources. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so it's not doing anything malevolent. It's not being shady. It's just really sharing resources and being mindful of this whole kind of law of reciprocation that you're dealing with regardless of whoever you're working with, right? So I feel it's in a very different context here than when people say, you know, when people bring up things like conflict of interest or like...

whatever. It does put you in like, there's a lot of ethical things. Like, I mean, I think that's what Brett mentioned too. Like, there's definitely deals on the table that there were reasons we couldn't close it. Not because maybe our management team weren't as connected. There's probably a level of grayness that we had to operate in, right? So, ethically, like, we hear that and I used to do a B2B deal. Well, there's definitely unethical things that happen. There were a lot of things that Bruce walked away from. Yeah, Bruce would be like, hey, you know, he would take it to like, let's say, Dave or our president and be like,

hey, here's this deal on the table, right? And they would be like, all right, but we have to create a different type of tax, a special type of tax, papiao, tax invoice that is not...

what our business is licensed for. So you would take that all into consideration and weigh out the kind of pros and cons. You had to go, like, talk to the tax department. Like, you know, you had to think about that angle. To see if it's even worth it. Right, right. And then the tougher part of our business, gift cards itself, right, it's not very, like, we don't really have loyal customers out there, right? People just go where the price is cheapest. In China, just everyone has information online. So, like, for me, the toughest part was dealing with, like, buyers, like, bulk buyers who, like,

Huang you'll scalpers right and they're like they set the price and like okay I'm buying a million worth of content what's the best price you can give and it's like okay I say a number here he's gonna go to our competitors or anyone else in the month use that number yeah and then it just gradually becomes a declining it's just a tough and so we sort of set the bench I said no this is what is take it or leave it we're not even gonna bother with these like

shitty deals because at the end of the day that's what happened to like you know a lot of these brands pulling out because they couldn't sustain that like everyone's just making money off them Amazon is one of those iTunes pulled out and that's exactly one of the I think

What I was saying before, you know, a language barrier is actually a pretty small barrier relative to cultural barrier. If you think about what Bruce is just saying, which is 100% true, like, you know, the gift card product, which is still a nice part of our business, you know, in the U.S., it's exactly that. We call it a gift card because people often gift it for birthdays, Christmas, whatever. Right.

In China, the cultural gap was that, you know, we wanted to try to create this gift card concept for a consumer. But really...

Chinese consumers don't want to gift this. Actually, they lose face because the value cannot be high enough. There's regulations. The prepaid card can't be more than 1,000 RMB, but a lot of times people give red envelopes that are like 3K, 5K, 10K as part of a gift. So I'm giving you a much smaller value in a card. So there's kind of this cultural product market

that exists. So actually then what we had to realize is that culturally we had to pivot the way that we market the product and that's where, you know, Bruce, he's the guy who does most of our B2B deals. That's how we actually move tons of volume is through, you know, discounting, promotional value, giving basically, you know, more value

we, we get a commission for every card we sell, right? So if I get, if I sell a hundred R and B card and I get 10% of that as my, uh, cut, and then I can give like 5% of that back to a buyer on the other side. Right. So they're now, now it's turning into more like a, like a kind of a good deal type of product. Uh,

Um, and that's just the cultural shift that we had to account for. So, um, so I think that those were the bigger challenges that, that actually try to just speak Chinese. I mean, ultimately you can always find people who will translate for you. There's always ways to get around that. But yeah, but it's somebody really going to tell you, Hey, this is why, uh,

I will or won't buy your product. This is why I will reach into my wallet and give you cash or I won't do it. And until you understand that, you can't build any type of business, right? Because you're not creating value for them on the other side. So I think that that was probably one of the biggest challenges. Has there been any really frustrating moment where that culture barrier...

comes strong as hell and you're like fuck like why isn't this happening why isn't this working you know the first time you really face something that for me there's more like elements of ghettoness that i didn't encounter like before so we're in a really nice office with you know we've got a meeting room and i think just chinese culture right it's like you know these guys came in they're like i want to see you i'm gonna bring you know i want a million r&b with cards comes in he's got like his goonies right so there's like two other dudes like

they come in and they just start smoking. - In your office. - They're all Gucci now. - And they're like, "Oh, where's the young guy?" - Are they wearing sunglasses indoors? - It was everything. They had the whole bag and then, you know. - Collars and pops. - And you know, you've got like that head shaved up to one side. - Well, that whole look, right? - I know exactly who you're talking about. - And they're like, "Where's the young guy?" I'm like, "Yo, I'm talking to this dude." I'm like,

first of all you put that out right but then you know sometimes you put a face right so how do you handle that situation how do you handle that situation do you let them smoke you just let them yeah I can't do anything right they're like oh yeah spark up and then you know they just felt like they did you smoke with them you ended up so I bet you no I didn't I didn't they came in and it was like they owned the place and I was like what the hell happened I thought yeah so we were like okay let's so that was there was a time when we said okay maybe we set up the office here where people could come here and purchase cards in bulk if they wanted to but that

episode or that situation, I'd be going, no, I'm not gonna do that. I mean, there's definitely type businesses out there, like New Smart Pay and all them. They do that, they just have a building. You go in and buy cards and then you pick up and everything. But it was just, that experience of that, it's just like, whoa, that's a little bit out there. - So, something like Chief Entertainment Officer, I know that's a nickname. But how did that come about?

Yeah, I want to dig into this a bit. Yeah, so like coming back to that language thing, right? So Dave, a CEO, he probably had three words that he was very good with. Pijol, maidan, and like maybe one more. Like, zai lai yi ge. I think counting from one to six when he played dice. Oh, yeah. Also that, right? So he knew those...

and then when I joined I think because of the closeness in the company too it was almost like now he always knew my schedule so he was like oh you're not doing anything you know you're on this project you're not doing anything come hang out and drink right like there were times like that right he's like guys he just knew you weren't doing anything I know you're not

- You're like, "Oh, we're celebrating this deal. "Let's do this." Because Brett closed in a million, whatever. Or Hubert just signed this contract, you did this. And they're like, "All right, we get together "and actually celebrate those milestones," which I think was really cool. And then as part of the, I think the CEO title, the Chief Entertainment Officer side was more like, we kind of knew for different milestones what kind of celebration was needed. Maybe it was just a nice dinner or maybe it was just as simple as going to the happy hour place and drink all you can for 90 minutes.

And that was good enough. But then if it wasn't monumental. How high does it go? How high does that scale go? Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, we've done world trips to Hong Kong. Let me give you a more recent example, right? So we have a partner that we're working with as we're trying to look at some of our overseas opportunities now. So this company comes in. They're CEO from Japan. And they're regional managing director for Southeast Asia from Singapore. So they both come in.

And, you know, they're like, oh, yeah, you know, so we have a long meeting with them about just how we can, you know, offer our services to them technology-wise. And afterwards, they're like, oh, let's go out and have dinner and some drinks, right? And I was like, okay, yeah, let's go. We're going to go to Goose Island. It's a, you know, gastropub here in Shanghai near our office. And...

and so they, uh, for whatever reason, the guy decided to like make an announcement. He said, yeah, by the way, because our, uh, Southeast Asia managing directors here, he's our, our drinking ringer. So if you try to make us drink, uh,

He's going to take all the drinks and he'll be standing and you guys are going to get taken down. So you guys were like, challenge fucking accepted. You know, the funny thing is because Bruce wasn't actually in that meeting. He had a conflict. So he didn't hear any of this. But we said, Bruce, come to the dinner. Bruce, get over here now. You got to meet this guy. Well, you also have, you know. He has to send off the bat signal. So what happens is that Bruce shows up a little bit late because he was at a different meeting. Yeah, there we go.

And so he comes to dinner and we're sitting there and we're just having a few drinks. And these guys, you know, they think they have their secret weapon there. And all of a sudden, Bruce reaches into his pocket and pulls out a bottle of convenience store Baichu. And for the viewers who don't know what Baichu is...

It's basically, if you ever come to China, they're going to call it white wine. And just be convinced that you're not going to get white wine. You're drinking gasoline. Yeah, you're drinking straight out of the U.S. It's like the Chinese moonshine. And it hits you. It hits you out of nowhere. It's a Chinese moonshine. The first time I had Baijiu, I remember I was drinking maybe half of this cup. And I was like, this is nothing. It's strong, but I'm fine. And I'm having a conversation. I'm like, I've got to use the bathroom.

I walk, I stand up and I fall right to the ground. Yeah. And I'm like, that's when you know. It'll get ya. It'll get ya. Yeah. That's what Baijo does. Yeah, so by the end of the night, so then we're, you know, so Bruce busts us out, introduces them to Baijo. Yeah. And they're not really. They're responding to it because you guys had saved me the middle of the state for some reason. And as I come in. So where were these guys from again? Japan and Singapore. And that was a local. And also a local Chinese guy who was doing a little bit of translating. Yeah.

But so then Bruce comes in and then he just starts warming it up. So he's just like, oh, sorry, guys. I came a little bit late. Let me just catch up. Boom, boom, boom. He's just like, just looking everybody dead in the eye. Just starts grabbing them cups and drinking. Like aggressively. Aggressively, but calm. The ringer's like, what is going on? So where was the ringer from? Singapore. He's from Singapore. And I can see the look in his eyes where he's like.

I've made a terrible mistake. It's like the Avengers moment where they're like, we have a Hulk. What do you have? We got a Hulk. Exactly. So then we're going. And so by the end of the night, but it's all friendly. We're all having a good time and we're really getting to know each other.

Oh, by the end of the night, their ringer is just like, he can't even like, in the middle of a sentence, he'll say like three words and then he'll just stop to think. And he just won't pick it up again. He'll just like stop. And he's like, okay, I think I'm done now.

He just lost speech, basically. And so, you know, but at the end of the day, like, you know, Bruce is able to break down those barriers. Those guys, you know, this guy's sitting there with his CEO and they're all important people in the company. But I think what he has this amazing ability to do is not only get everybody comfortable, you know,

you know, as friends with each other, but like bring strangers into the fold and just get them to just listen up. He has a gift for it. Like even, even outside of a work related context, like even amongst our own friends, like Bruce has been for many years now, kind of like that glue, that social glue. I agree. You know what I mean? That kind of keeps us all together. Yeah.

Because there's something about you that, you know, everything is welcoming. There's like no judgment. And even people who don't know you, like I've seen it with my own eyes. Like they're immediately comfortable around you.

you. Right, right, right. That's a gift. But, you know, there's a deeper layer of that too, right? Like, I mean, how we all met and became friends. I'm still surprising friends at Howie because, I mean, our story goes back to that. Oh, I didn't like Howie when I first met him. Oh, yeah, yeah. I thought he was a dick when I met him. He didn't like you either when he met you too. Oh, you didn't like me when I met you? Fuck you. What did I do? Hey, you know, it wasn't that you did anything. It's just the vibe. It's what you didn't do. It's just the vibe. It's what you didn't do.

I'm just saying live. Okay. We just didn't have a bromance, you know? Actually, I think when Howie and I first met, we always just like, even always, we always just hang out. That was kind of like, you know, we were all through different parts of our China story, right? There were periods of time that we were always just hammered.

So, like, there were times where I met Howie and he was hammered. And you'd been, I think, it was probably the second or third time we met and you're like, oh, hey, haven't seen you in a while. I'm like, yo, how? And then you said it down. So that was kind of, I think that's when you turn a leaf and you're like, oh, shit, I need to...

you know, be a little bit less of an asshole. Not an asshole, but just, you know, it was a... I've had periods of times in my life where I had a drinking problem, so... No, we've all had, we've all had, you know? Yeah. It's called seven years in China. I think a lot of my brain cells are already dead because of it. I don't know. And for some reason, this liquid courage that we're sipping out now, this...

It's almost like oil to the gears that we do and especially in a working environment sometimes after a hard day of work just to have a drink with really good like you know the brotherhood or the friends just to know that we've all faced the same challenge today I mean we sat through these management meetings where we look at each other and go holy shit is this really happening and it happens and we just you know we take a little time out and sort of pick ourselves up right it's like we've been put into battle we took this fight we took this war and

we might have lost that battle, but we'll pick up and keep going. And I think we had those moments where we thought about even leaving the company. There were moments where other companies were trying to vie for our talent, right? And we've spoken each other out of many, many... Yeah, exactly. That's actually true. And I think that's one of the things, you know, I think for anybody who's ever tried to do a business of any kind, but especially a startup that's trying to do something that's...

untested one of the hardest things to do is build a team right and I think that's one of the things that Dave saw in us when he was like wow okay I put together a group of people that actually will roll up their sleeves get things done and I'd like to be around them I just want to be around people that I want maybe and I said I want to see every day right like I mean you spent a lot of time with the people you work with so you want to make those good people

So I think that, uh, one of the things that, uh, is really hard is keep keeping a good team because especially in a place like Shanghai, we've all gotten nice offers. Um, and when, you know, when you're at a startup, you, you don't make as much salary, not, it depends on how well funded the startup is, but you know, I think we've all made less money at cargo card than what we could make in other places. And we've all had very rich offers, but, um,

What we've also done is kind of, as a brotherhood, talked people off that cliff. Like when somebody else has an offer to double, triple, quadruple their salary going somewhere else. Damn, quadruple. That's a big number, right? And, you know, we say, but bro, think about this. Like what are you going to be walking away from? I think at the end of the day, I know when I was in that same position,

potentially looking to leave and take a richer offer. I looked back at it and I said, well, you know what? I live 10 minutes from where I work. This whole neighborhood is amazing. The people I get to see every day and spend time with are amazing. The business has tons of challenges. We're far from finished on achieving our mission, but...

But, you know, leaving all of the good things behind would be far more damaging than the benefits of just more money. Because that's not really going to define me or create like long term, you know, kind of meaning to the things that I want to do. So it was more like kind of the environment, the culture, the mission behind it.

which we guys were on, kind of just had much more impact on you guys than, let's say, just pure money and financial. Absolutely. I mean, we've all been to each other's...

which I know a lot of colleagues do, but we created fake traditions around weddings. We know when the person's going to propose to their significant other. We'll make a trip to all go to Hong Kong or Taiwan or different destinations to go help them shop for that ring, buy that ring, and then we hang out and party, but we give them shit the whole time. So it's like a mini bachelor party. It's like a pre-bachelor party, yes. We call it ring bucking, and it's... Ring bucking. Yeah.

Or like, you know, I had a baby bucking, which was basically before my son was born. We all just did like... We had a golf cart and we had nine holes, so to speak. And we just had basically... It was a bar crawl of nine pubs. And we just kind of went around town and had different challenges to do and stuff. Like these types of things are, you know, you...

It's like I think walking away from it would be like walking away from family in some ways, right? A family that you really start to love and like all family, you know, you don't have to get along all the time. And it's better if you don't get along all the time. You can work through your issues and talk about, you know, the things that...

that you're having challenges with. But at the end of the day, that trust, you know, going back to, I guess what, you know, I started talking about, which is like the trust that we built as friends and the trust that we built through the business would have been not worth walking away from. So...

- Yeah, it was pretty valuable stuff. - So what you were talking before in terms of like, you know, whether it was you guys or other people in the company getting much more financially lucrative offers from elsewhere and you would talk them off of that cliff, so to speak, you said. And you would even talk each other away from that cliff because you guys were offered. Was that far, was that more, was that easier to do when David was around versus now, you know?

Was the culture different when he was around? Yeah, definitely. The leadership was different. I mean, I think leadership, his way of leadership was far different. He was very much enriching. He passed up so many of his skills to us that I think we still use to this day. You can't put a price on that. Yeah, definitely. What kind of impact...

did he have on you guys? He really let us run the show on things because he believed in us. So he trusted us. So like, and, you know, partly of that, he knew that we were never going to screw him any business deal, any friendship, anything of that nature. So he was always very supportive of us doing,

doing what we were doing. I don't know about you, but he never really came down on me and said anything like, oh, you should be doing this or doing that. If anything, he was more like, hey, you should make sure that you get adequately compensated. He's like, you should figure out how to structure something in your contract that allows you to get benefits from every card or every deal that you do. And I was like, oh, that's really nice from a CEO that's looking out for me. So there were elements of that, and I'm sure we have certain commissions in our contract

in our contracts that have a huge upside, you know, should that be, should we hit like a billion in, you know, in sales for my channel or whatnot, right? I'd be like,

Yeah, let's blow it up. I'd be bringing like, I don't know, not 21-year-old, but something. 35-year-old. Some Louis 13 or something. So would it be harder now to walk away from those same offers, let's say? You know what I mean? It would be easier now, I think, right? Given that... Easier now to walk away from those offers or take those offers? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Easier to take those offers. Yeah.

I'll speak for myself, but you asked what are the things that David had taught or the lessons that were handed down. But I think there were probably too many to count or too many to name, but I think some of just the more life principles. I think he was somebody who always would remind me to look at life

the things that are happening rather than the things that are not happening in your business. And specifically in business, but I think it applies to all parts of your life, you set goals for yourself. You say, okay, I want to make this much this year in my business, or I want to do X, Y, and Z. And more often than not, you're going to set lofty goals

for yourself. And when you don't hit those goals, you have two things to look at, either what you missed or what you achieved from where you were at the beginning of that year. And I think one of the things that Dave was very good at

helping me put perspective in because I was always the guy who said and maybe it's my finance background but I was always like oh we missed plan by this we missed you know we were x percent off and he's like yeah but you you know you got like three new clients and you did this this and this and actually we brought in you know millions of dollars on this deal like why would you not pay attention to those things um you know so I think now looking at where our company is it's it's

I don't think it's just a leadership change. It's also like just where the business is now. We're 10 years from the company founding to where we are now. And investors also start to need their money back and stuff. So there's just a stronger precedent on getting to profitability and getting to a valuation that makes everybody rich and that kind of stuff.

You know, those types of things start to take priority over focusing on how do I improve myself, improve myself, improve myself. And so for me personally, it's easier at this point to to say want to walk away because those types of pressures are good and you should have a certain level of that in your life. But if you are going to do that, you should either do that for yourself or.

rather than somebody else. Or you should just be prepared to say, hey, I'm ready to take on a challenge where I can start from a ground zero and then focus on what I'm building rather than what I'm missing. So I think that that life perspective is something that I took from him and kind of applied to all aspects of my career, even my family, my personal life. It's so easy to always say, oh man, I wish I had that. I wish I was in

I was in this position or in that house or whatever, whatever. But it's like, look, I have so much. And I, you know, I remember that daily because of, you know, his influence in my life. So I think that's probably one of the biggest things because that actually totally shifted my perspective in life. Totally shifted it.

I think the monetary value is kind of something that's just, you know, for us, I think we can say that money's never been the real. I mean, it's great to always have money, but actually like having that happiness of being in an environment or a place that you want to be at every day. Like waking up every day and be like, I want to be at the office. I want to put those hard yards in. I want to work extra hours on the weekend. You know, those are the self-sacrifices that we take in and we're happy to do. Like I think the time that we start doubting what we do and the effort and the time that we put in,

You know, it's always nice to know that there's a 1 million RMB paycheck out there for you in salary. It's comfortable. But I don't know. It really comes down to where you are, you know, where you are yourself. Like for me, I don't think I would want to go work for like a Nike or someone like that or whoever it is, right, that has a gift card position. For me, that's just more like, okay, now I've got to spend the next, you know, X amount of years there and not be where I feel like cargo card has allowed me to

develop as an individual to be more like flexible go seek out other opportunities that you know you you have kind of more control of your own destiny rather than but cargo car now is is beginning to become more like a corporate kind of culture is it not is it always been it's yeah yes and no yes and no i mean i think that that's uh i i think what it is is that um

How do I want to say it? So I think that, yes, as things start to mature and shape up, that

That starts to happen, right? Because as a startup, you're trying to test things that are unproven. And then as certain things that you've done become proven, then you say, okay, we're definitely going to do this business. And no business has one single source of revenue, right? We have a few different business lines. So like we say, okay, we're definitely doing this because it's working. And we're going to definitely do this because it's working. And this one, maybe we'll keep doing it or maybe we'll decrease the effort we put on it.

So as that starts to shape up in that regard, yeah, it does start to become more corporate because then you start to set those targets. It kind of takes me back to my old life, right? And that's kind of what I was saying. It's like you start to focus on, all right, well, here's my goal.

here's what I did and rather than looking at what we did it's like looking at what we missed because these businesses become mature so everything starts taking shape now yeah and then you kind of get set into the typical kind of business typical business structure or corporate structure so so I do think that that's happening and that's not a bad thing right that's good I want that for the business because that means that it's getting to that next level yeah but it's also just a

a point of reflection for, for, for me. And I think Bruce and I both talked about this for what we want personally. Um, you know, that, that I think it's, it's time for, for me to look at, okay, what else can I be doing that puts me back in, in that area where we were really having a lot of fun. And, um,

you know, things were accelerating and different every day. I think the growth is always going to be there for KC, like Ocago. I think we've identified what the future opportunities are in the market. I mean, we've really stretched ourselves at the...

in the last few years, probably figuring out what works and what doesn't. And we've really thrown, like a lot of, we've cast a wide web or a wide net of things. Now everything's sort of, you kind of know where it's at. And I think that requires now like a greater effort. So it's almost another commitment. I think in my mind, like five years at this company again. So it's almost like,

Where do I want to be? Do I want to, at my age, right? Obviously, then another five years to that, I'm like, oh, I'm almost late 30s. Am I still going to be in China? I mean, I've always had a nice nine years here already, right? I mean, I'm also looking to figure out whether I want to go back. Yes, question.

both of you would you go back to your own motherland your whole old country India not mother motherland Australia yeah so I mean you know so that's in the cards for me I mean that's happening in the next few months but you don't think America's kind of fucked up right now like why would you want to go back well so everything's fucked up you know

I think there's no such thing as an amazing, like, or excuse me, there's no such thing as a perfect place. But to me, the world is an amazing place, no matter where you are, right? Like most of the suffering and misery that people experience is brought on by themselves. And as I start to spend more and more time thinking about like life and the

grand scheme of things, I really do feel that actually you can control most of that misery and how you look at everything as being fucked up or perfect or beautiful. You know, like,

Overall, if I look at my life in America versus my life in China, they both had their own sets of challenges. There were a lot of times when I first moved to America that I felt super out of place. The same way I came to China and I felt super out of place. But over time, in both places, I found them.

My place is a place that was specific to me. And I think if I go back to America now, there will be a different experience that I have altogether. A new adjustment. A new adjustment. A new adjustment. And that's the work that I need to put in is to not look at everything that is wrong with that environment, but look at everything that works for me in that environment.

But, you know, we don't know right now. Like, you know, my wife and I, we're always discussing, like, you know, we're going to take a little period of time to travel and see the world. And we're not dead set on going back to America. We're not dead opposed to coming back to China. But we're also open. Like, what if we end up in India where we decide to spend a bunch of time?

And you know, she's super passionate about her yoga practice and things like that. And that's a great environment for that. What if we realize that's where we need to be? I mean, I'll end up full circle back, you know, where I was born. Or what if we end up in Europe and just realize, God, this is like, this is awesome. I want to be here. Or we're in Africa and just say like, you know, this is a beautiful culture and amazing food and environment. Like, I want to be here. So...

Whatever happens, happens. But I look at wherever I go next as just being like when it feels right and when I'm ready. Oh, no. Oh, no. Well, it sounds to me like...

You're chasing that exploration of the unknown, that kind of feeling. It's that same kind of feeling when you're at a startup, right? Everything is kind of unknown. The future is very unknown. But you're exploring. Everyone's exploring together, and there's this feeling of discovery every day. And each day you go to work, you don't really know what to expect. Right.

It's a whole new thing. Now that that is slowly changing within your company, is that really the main reason why, or is that part of the reason why you're deciding to leave China? You want to keep exploring? You kind of still have that spirit in terms of

going after the unknown? Yeah, that's like almost dead on. That's very insightful of you. So basically, like, that's probably one of the primary sentiments of even kind of just taking this break away from China. It's not saying I need to get out of China. I mean, yes, in some ways I do. It's not saying I need to go back to America, although I love America and it's a beautiful place for what it is with its own set of problems. But like, I just want to get my head out of what I've been seeing. And like,

you know, what you live is just, it's like kind of like what you're able to see yourself living every day, right? And if you can get yourself into a mindset where you can see something bigger, you can maybe try something new, right? When I put myself in the mindset of, I could live in China, which was, it took me a while to get my head around that, but then I just said, let me picture it and see what that looks like and maybe I can do it. Mm-hmm.

And I came here. So now I kind of only see my life in China, in Shanghai. And what I want to be able to see is a little bit more of what can I possibly do? What can I possibly live? You know, I have a young son. I think like we live in a world where now, today, things are so connected and it's so easy to be in different places. I mean, from the time that my family moved from India to America, it's

You know, the price of a flight was actually more expensive than what it is today, right? So we never went back to India too often because it was just too much money. But now, actually, like, costs have come down and it's easier to be everywhere. If you can't physically be there, technology plugs you into that place, access to information. So it's like, all of a sudden now, anywhere is fair game. And that's...

totally, totally different, I think, position that my parents were in. And it's only going to get more and more that way. Exactly, exactly. So I want to, that's part of what I want to be able to do with this is look at what are all those unknowns that I would never think of, right? Like those black swans, like you couldn't, before anybody saw a black swan, they didn't know that they existed. And then once you see it, you just realize it exists. It's possible.

So that's a huge, huge part of what I think the next step is. That's got to be like a really freeing kind of feeling. Yeah, it's huge. Yeah, it's a little nerve-wracking too. But yeah, but it is. I think anything worth exploring is nerve-wracking, right? But it wouldn't be that exciting if it wasn't nerve-wracking.

rack, right? True, true. It just wouldn't be the same. Yeah. You get too comfortable, right? It becomes like it's time for a change sometimes. Yeah. So where are you at then? Similarly, like I mean like the question is would I move home? Yeah, I would. I mean like now I think part of the maturity process. Just, you know, knowing now like how...

If you look full circle, kind of like growing up in, for me, growing up in Sydney in Australia, it was a place where I'm sure Brett also counted too. Like, I'm in a place where it's just, you know, I'm a minority. And then, you know, learning English back then, because it was a second language, and then sort of coming to sort of

figure out what my identity was because there was a time where I was like man I don't really want to be like I said like Asian like you don't want to be like you know the change you know all the you don't want to be known first as the Asian guy right right you're the token Asian guy in the school or in the group I know that feeling very well and then so like it wasn't until later on when I actually came to China I was like man I'm really embracing my identity like I love being Chinese like

I mean, I think I'm so proud of a certain element of that. And I'm really grateful that I was also able to be brought up in like an Australian society or the background. I still see myself as Australian, of course, but now it's not like, I think I've made that bridge where before I was like, I kind of like, it was kind of like you shun away that cousin of yours that was, you know, you know, the drunk at the table, the drunk uncle. And I think China was that at some point. Now I'm more like embracing of that. I'm like, Oh, this is me. This is who I've become and very proud of that. Um,

And now being in Asia for so long too, I just really embrace living here. But I can also see as my parents get older, I've got to take on more responsibilities as well. I think in traditional Chinese norms, it was always understood that the son in the household was to look after their parents. And then...

through my upbringing in Australia, my parents were always like, you know, one day you're going to come look after us. And I was like, what are you talking about? Like, my Aussie friends are like, their parents are happy. Oh, sorry. Their parents are happy. They're like, oh, as long as my parents are happy, that's cool. I just was like, oh, yeah, same approach. Like, as long as you guys are happy. But,

in Asian cultural mentality, it's more like, the son always comes back and looks after the parents because it's kind of like, but I don't think it's like Asian culture. I think it's like in every culture. It's almost like, when you're young. It's in every culture, but it's very pronounced in Asian culture. Right, right. Absolutely. Filial piety. Yes, yes, that word, that word. Wow. Way to whip out a big word on us. Okay. You spell it? Two big words. Q-R-S. Q-R-S.

No, actually, I did want to dig in deep about that because, I mean, I think we've discussed this in our own time before about being Asian-

in let's say America or Australia growing up, the identity crisis in a small way. Growing up, I mean you were the same way, you didn't have that many Asians around you, right? Same with me. And then coming to China, whether or not it was subconscious or conscious, but coming back here, you feel more comfortable.

You're surrounded by people that look like you. You don't stick out like a sort of thug. But if you do stick out, it's not because of a negative reason. It's because, oh, you look like you've lived abroad or you're more cultured or something, right? It's more positive. So going back to that, you feeling that you've found, you've rekindled that identity inside of you, right? But now you're saying that

you'd be okay to move back to Australia? - All the time. I still identify myself as Aussie, Australian in that way. I'm just fortunate that I'm also Chinese looking, if that makes sense. - Okay, so let's go on the flip side. When you came to Shanghai,

Less about your identity in terms of race, but your identity as a personality. Back in Australia, from what I reckon, you were very different than what you've become here in Shanghai. So how has that affected you, do you think? So that was part of when you were also talking about what I look forward to moving back. There was a point in me, I was like, oh, damn. How did you change? How about that? Oh, definitely. I think China itself allowed me to just sort of push boundaries that I sort of set myself before. It showed me a place that was...

Just, you know, whether it was relationships, whether it was just my personal boundaries on things in life, right? Like an explanation. So just for example, like, okay, here, this, you know, in Australia, I was more of the mentality. It was like, okay, you know, you're in a relationship and you're with that person, right? But here it's kind of like I saw all these Asian guys, like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, they have a different girl. So like when I first saw that, I was like, whoa, what is this?

I want that. Yeah. How can you get away with that? But it was like, cool. That's awesome. That's awesome. I saw a bit of that in Hong Kong, right? That's interesting. I am home. I'm so Chinese. This all works now. So I look like this, but I got this passport. I'm going to crush it here. Yeah, right? That was a time. Oh, I missed that gap. That was when your ABC and all those girls was flying at you, right?

right that was just they throw themselves at you oh those days are over I didn't mean to experience those but yeah it was definitely a culture shock it was just like I didn't know there was like girls that you paid that drink with you right like my first bar experience was going to Bar Bar it was back in the day oh yeah right and that was hella ghetto but it was hella fun great place

Great place. Great place back in the day. In an ironic kind of way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tongue-in-cheek kind of way. Like, yeah, you would go there ironically, but you would have a blast. Oh, yeah. But you would unironically have a great time. You would go there ironically, you would unironically have a legitimately great time.

Yeah, so I kind of, I don't know if I explained the question that you asked me, but yeah. Did you? I don't know. What was the question? Ironically. What do you think the question was? Because you're answering something. The question was, yes. So how did you change? So definitely drinking, for sure. And I think not drinking in a bad way. It was a good way for me to socialize. Yeah.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Just stop me if you think I'm wrong. But in a very general way, before you moved to China, you were a lot more... I guess you could call it more simple, a little bit more...

conservative yes yes yes right and then and then now i'm not saying that you're not conservative or you're not simple but you definitely have seen a lot more in life yeah whether it's through drinking whether it's through social activities even like exploring different countries yeah i think what you're getting at is more like before i was more judgmental of things i think i was more uh

When I met someone, I'd already classify them. Categorize them. Is that how you used to be? Yeah, definitely. And it's still there. I think it's part of my Scorpio nature. But I think coming to China, it made me go, you know what? Who am I to judge? I think if they're happy, they're happy. Who am I to judge if they have girlfriends on the side or they're into guys or whatever it is? If they're happy, they're happy. Interesting. So before, I was more like, ugh. So when I met James Wood, right?

Exactly. I made it through my roommate, Peter. And I saw James Liu and I'm like, damn, this guy's chugging out of a five liter black label bottle. And I'm like, dude, that's the kind of friends that I hang around with in Australia. But lo and behold, he's a great friend of mine, dear friend of mine. And I'm like, man, if I didn't judge him at that time,

and he turned out to be a really nice guy, you know, I felt like I would have missed something there. And, you know, this happens. I hear that. And now he's one of your closest friends. Yeah, exactly, exactly. We just had him on our last podcast. Oh, you did? Yeah. Oh, okay. All right, James Wood. Yeah.

Shout out to James. I definitely hear that. You know what I mean? So, you know, I think it's actually enriched me. It's actually broadened my horizons on perception in life. And I'm so embracing everything. Like, you know, I think someone who could be on the street or whoever it is, whatever it is, they might be in a happier state of mind than I am when I have employment, I have all this. Everyone has their own challenges and I feel like, you know, it's just about how you deal with them.

That's actually a really interesting perspective because I was wondering, I was thinking recently about, uh, at least personally. Yeah. My life back in New York and my life here and whether it's the activities I partake in, the circle of friends that I have. Yeah. Um,

the differences and it's quite different. And I think you summed it up perfectly. I actually reduced my judgmentalism. Even though I know you guys think I'm very judgmental, but like, trust me, it's a lot less. Before? Before, I was much worse. I was a real prick. I was much worse. I was a dick. I'm still a dick, but not as bad. Right, right. I've definitely reduced it by a lot. And,

And that's totally subconscious. And I have only realized it now that you've said that. It's pretty interesting. But I think that's what happens when living in a city like Shanghai because even though I'm from New York, we have a lot of people from all different cultures and races. But, I mean...

90, 85% of the people you meet are still from America, but just different states. Right? You'll have a couple Europeans, stuff like that, but in general... No, really? I mean, yeah. But in Shanghai, it's like you're constantly meeting people from different countries. You know? And then you really... It's not just different countries, but just different personality types and different... The diversity here is so much more intense than...

But more to that too, I think the other thing is like everyone I've met here has actually, everyone's more positive in life, right? Everyone's like, oh, I'm here for it. Oh, that's yours? Maybe we should take a moment for that.

We did finish the bottle. Should have brought more. I have more. Should I bring in another? I have more that's already drank. We don't have to finish this. I mean, it depends on how we're on time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, let's go ahead. What I'm saying was just like, I do find most of the times when I first came in, maybe not so much now, I start to see all the riffraff. The riffraff. It was kind of like, oh, now you see these young kids who...

kind of like embracing China life right oh the tomfoolery exactly we went through that too we went through that phase it was like oh so fun everything's new and then you're like from like 1930s the riffraff well man everyone was like super like happy and positive like not obviously alcohol helps but

everyone was just there was no negativity which I really feel like I don't see much of that and if there are negative people out there then you know I try to make them feel good and then I move on like I don't want to I want to live in a positive light and be happy with my friends and

And I think in China, there's a lot of people that are on the, they see the good and the bad. You know, people say, oh, this is China. And they get, you know, it's like that two-year thing where it's fight or flight, right? A lot of ABC girls, ABC guys, whoever it is, or maybe whatever, they come here and they think, oh, China's great. And then within two years, they really realize if they can kick it or not, right? And I think it's a true testament of who we are that we've been able to kick it along for the past two years and still really enjoy this place. This place has changed so much, right? Yeah.

It's constantly changing. It's constantly changing. I feel like every two years there's a big shift in some way. But see, that's what I love about it. You know what I mean? Like, I'm from New York, right? And a city like that, as great as it is, it's a fully matured city and it has been for a very long time. So you go back now...

Versus me going back there 10 years ago, it's pretty much the same thing. Nothing really has changed. Right. A few new restaurants. A little more sterile now. Maybe. But it's more or less the exact same thing. As opposed to someone like Shanghai 10 years ago, it's completely unrecognizable than it is today.

And it's gonna be another 10 years. Not even another 10 years, just a 5 years. Give it 5 years. It's changing. We're just numb to the change because we're seeing it every day so we don't really notice how much it's changing on a day. Even though we do notice a little bit but not as much as if we just left for a year. Even their friends that have left China and they come back after a year or two, they're like,

what happened friends that have stayed here for decades and then they leave just for a few years and come back and they're like what like their mind is blown so that to me is part of the excitement of living here or any other part of the world that is that is growing as fast as a city like Shanghai is that electricity in the air right so to speak yeah um

That excitement, that energy, it's really what gives Shanghai its charm. And that's why when I go back to an LA or a New York, it's great, it's nice, it's really cool, but it gets really boring real quick.

And Shanghai never gets boring. You know what it is? Here's an analogy. Like, Shanghai is the equivalent of, like, cell phone and social media. And, like, constant, like, pings and, like, you know, likes and comments and switching between platforms. And you're constantly on your cell phone because your mind is already used to this ADD lifestyle of constant, like, postings.

Like sensory overload? Yeah. And like, meanwhile, you go back to, let's say, even like New York and LA, even though there is a lot of stuff, it's like a board game. You just sit there, you just play a game, and it's just like, you're concentrated, you're there, you're just doing your thing, you know what's going to happen, blah, blah, you play, right? So it's just, I feel like this is, you know, Shanghai's a cell phone. You know, it's just constant, like, shit going on that you,

But see, some people hate that though, right? Like some people want that peace and quiet. They want to get in touch with like, let's say nature or whatever. Well, you know, like for me, you know, now like, you know, I'm married, got a kid and that is far more desirable to me in that regard because we just had a friend, a couple from, mom's from Shanghai, dad's from Mexico but they live in San Diego now.

They have a kid, same age as my son, and they live in San Diego and they're just like, dude, if you have a kid, we never want to come back to China anymore. I get that. It's just so nice. It's like that easygoing life that it's so boring. And actually, it's boring growing up. Like now I look at my hometown where I grew up in suburbs of New York. I didn't grow up in the city. I grew up in Rockland County. It's like suburbs of New York.

And I look at that place now as being like, man, that's a dope place to take your kid. Like safe, good schools, nature, still good pizza. It's like a good community of friends they can still hang out with. Or you prioritize different things, right? Prioritize different things. But like, you know, growing up in that environment, I always thought, oh man, why couldn't we live in New York City? That would be so cool. You know, I could be hanging out with Q-Tip right now. So did you really see Q-Tip?

Did you really feel your mentality change like the moment your son was born? Like, did you? Was it like a click or was it a gradual thing? No, no, no. It's, okay. So short answer is no. Like I didn't, it wasn't like, oh my God, he's here now and now I'm a different person. Uh-huh.

It was an awesome experience. Like, you see this human being and you're like, wow, you know, I fathered a kid. There's a human here now. Now what do I do? You know, you're about to do something that nobody has ever known how to do well. Nobody's known how to be a parent. There's no real book on it. And nobody's really, I mean, some people have been good at it and some people haven't, but everybody's tried. Yeah.

And so what changes is it's a constant progression because then you're fighting. Like, I look at it this way. Like, being a dad is, you know, biologically it's one thing. Like, I've done my job. The kid doesn't come from me, right? He comes through me. And now he's here in the world. But he's his own person. So...

I could either choose to impose my worldview on him. I could choose to expose him to my worldview and expose him to others. And I could also just choose to not be involved, right? Which doesn't mean like not...

See the kid it just means like there's some parents that are standoffish more hands-off Kind of let them grow into whatever you know you want and you see this in many cultures where like yeah It's just like mom that raises the kid and dad goes and works and stuff like so like there's a lot of different past to it, but like what I realized is that every Day that passes literally I feel differently about my role about his role

like just like like who he is like I view him more as a person sometimes I view him more as a kid sometimes I view him it's just like what's wrong with you but yeah so that changes everything it's not like a overnight thing where now all of a sudden a switch has flipped and I'm a different person

Actually, I still don't think that I've changed at a different pace. I change as much as you or you or you change. Whether or not you had the kid or not. No, because it's just different. If I didn't have the kid, does that mean my life stops moving? Does it mean that I stop growing? Does it mean that I stop caring about what comes next? It's just another thing that happens. But a kid can put...

like it's like a speed turbo boost on these changes right because then all of a sudden you feel this urgency or this pressure because now all of a sudden now you have this life to be responsible for all of a sudden whereas before you were only really responsible for yourself right or your wife but now you have a kid to be responsible so that can often put um

you know, the changes on, you know, like a speed boost. Like all of a sudden there's this urgency to do it. You got to do it. So you make things happen maybe quicker or you change quicker than you necessarily would have. Actually, the turbo boost is actually from someone like me. I feel like looking at someone like Brett who's married, has a kid,

I'm like holy shit I gotta catch up because I need to go and you know I need to be in a relationship that I'm happy with I need to probably look to settle down so I'm I'm more like as a friend looking up I'm like damn bro it's so amazing what you've accomplished and what you've done and you know I want that I want that too and then I'm like holy shit I'm on a

I'm on my own. Let me ask you, do you want that more because of a FOMO thing? Or have you just always wanted that to begin with? I think human, like, we've always, we always want that, right? Because it's, you know, it's a family thing that you build and create.

And, you know, there were elements of the FOMO-ness, but I think the FOMO-ness was more like missing out on getting drunk or doing certain things. The FOMO of that relationship has never been something that I've missed. I've always wanted that. And for me, I think being in China was... The toughest thing was probably find a...

to be in a relationship that was uh that had legs right i always saw that okay i could just have fun here and meet someone at wherever but i never felt like i could really see myself with them and whatnot and that was kind of part of my learning experience here that um the city is very vibrant in all its activities but you know when you actually want to settle down and and actually like you know spend the rest of your life with someone else

added a lot of complexities, right? There's temptation. There's all this other stuff. There's girls out there that specifically once they know that you're in a relationship, they want to go and break it, right? They're just these homewreckers. And, you know. Well, like, now that you bring that up, like, in terms of that kind of lifestyle, right, do you feel that your time at Cargo Card and your work life has kind of

egg that on a little bit in terms of being in this industry that you need to entertain people. On top of that, you have kind of, you know, you had a leader and you had a core group of friends within there that, you know, gave you all the reasons in the world to always celebrate and to go out and drink.

Because there's a period of time, I know Howie and I, we spoke to you about this, that we felt like you were almost getting burnt out by it. Oh, yeah. By that play hard side of the work life. I remember that. There was that intervention. It was over at 558 or something. Yeah.

I remember this. Over drinks. We literally had an intervention over drinks. There was an intervention over drinks, and then we were joking about... Because we're guilty of also being that bad influence in your life. I'm not trying to enable you, but...

Gun bay, bitch. It's like, why are you babysitting that, bro? Stop babysitting your dad. I remember that day because Eric was there as well. And you guys were saying, oh, you know, I think, you know, there's that element of the way you take it too far. And definitely, I totally feel that sometimes, right? There were times definitely where I was...

Or you even physically just broke down. Yeah, everything, right? And then I remember that time, I think Howie brought up and was like, oh, where are you in terms of a happiness level, like on a scale of 10? And I was like, you know, I still think I'm about seven, you know, eight, even in that realm of things, even with everything that was going on, because I felt like I needed all those elements just to be where I was, like just to keep my, maintain a certain status quo. And then

I remember, and I really remember, I was like, oh, holy shit. I remember I had this buzz cut because I was going through this mental period. I was like, shit, I just wanted to like click, like almost like start afresh, right? Like what?

and stuff like that. So I had this buzz cut. And then I said, oh, you know what, guys? It's okay. I understand. I really think you guys are caring and came out here to talk to me and I really appreciate that. But let's drink. Let's have a fun moment here. And we brought that bottle of Absolute, right? And we're drinking. And then before that, we asked you what levels of happiness you guys are at. You guys are at fives and whatnot. And then after we finished that bottle... You guys are more miserable than me.

me and then after when we finished our photo we were all like yeah you know we're at a heightened level of happiness because of

how everything all eventuated, right? It was just like, yeah, you guys are caring for me. I understand that. I appreciate it. But we can also be mature and happy without, you know, going overboard. And I think that was really critical. Like, you know, you saw a friend that could have gone, like, overboard, overboard. But I do have a stop in me. And I think that comes back to probably more, like, the upbringing and, you know, like having, you know, certain family elements that sort of gave me the right mindset

mixed to know that the world isn't an easy place right there's a lot of

You want to bring your kid up in some safety in some ways. Let them make their own decisions, make the bad choices, but as long as they don't go overboard. Well, I think you really bounced back strong from that duration of time. Because that duration of time, we were honestly very worried that you were just getting burnt out by it. Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I didn't know whether it was just...

you know, and you just going through, you know, stress relief or whatever, you just wanted to party or it was just part of the work. You know, I just didn't know. When was this? Just so I have some context. Yeah, this is like a long stretch of time. As much as a year ago though.

It was like a year ago, but it was for like a two, three year period. It was kind of like, I feel like it was kind of when we went to Korea and then after I came back from Korea. It was a long stretch of time. It wasn't just like a few months. It was like three years. I thought it was cool just being like, leaving random voice messages, right? Like just blasting shit, like, drop texting. I would definitely say it was when I came back from New York. You were definitely at the peak still. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it was like 2016, 17? Yeah, definitely. And then that's when we had Dry Goods as the... Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That should escalate it quick. That was a period. Because you know why? It's because all of us already have calmed down a lot. Right, right. We don't go out that much, maybe once a month. And then, but literally almost every day in our group chat, we get pinged at 2 o'clock in the morning. Yo, niggas ain't ready? Oh, wait. Yeah, y'all niggas ain't ready. Like, that's the line, right? Yeah, yeah.

Like you were always like, and I would leave you like voice messages on the table. And you would be clearly Dr. Dre and shit. Yeah. You would be clearly drunk. Yeah, absolutely. And, uh, you know, it's funny, but at the same time, when it's happening like every day, you're like, Oh shit. It's funny when it happens once in a while. He's always like, where are

Yeah, but it was literally happening. You're like in bed already sleeping. It was happening on a daily basis. But I'd still be up at work like nine, but it was constant. So you can justify it by saying, yeah, I should have worked out. Right, right, right. But still that takes a toll too because you're like, you're just not as functional. So where do you feel you are now in terms of balancing that kind of work and play? Yeah, I think there's been a definite reduction in the amount of time. Oh yeah, totally, totally. I mean,

I think one... It's good that Dry Goods is gone. Right, that's... Which was your part. But I think also...

You know, I think just looking at the things, yeah, exactly, like looking at what we were talking about, which is our brotherhood and our camaraderie and everything, I think a few major events. Did I just touch your toe? I wasn't going to say anything. I had to see a wink at you. We've been playing footsie there for a while. I guess I'm good. I had some with Hallie. But, you know, obviously we had a few major, major changes to, like, just the dynamic of the company, which was...

you know, Hubert left, he went to Alibaba, who's one of our core members. Actually, a lot of our company gets recruited to head on Alibaba. Which sucks. Well, that's a testament to the company. It is, it is, it is. Because, yeah, Ali only hires good people, but it's so hard for us to keep them. You know,

You know, Dave, Suzuki passed away about a year ago around this time. So that was a big change to everything. But prior to his passing, he had already handed over leadership of the company. He was planning to go back to the U.S. So, you know, I think...

A lot of things that then just kind of as he was, let's say Dave was going to make that move. He was sort of also making a statement to us like, hey, guys, you know, I'm transitioning to the next part of my life. You know, Hubert, you know, he got married about a year before that. But he said, hey, I'm ready to move to the next step of my career. I'm taking that next step.

And a few other smaller players, but important players in the company had also made similar transitions. So I think we started to just see that shift. And I think you kind of grow up as...

you're a product of your environment, right? So everybody's kind of like, all right, we're moving past this. Like it was fun while it lasted, but glad we moved out. We all got to keep progressing. We all got to keep progressing. We all got to go to whatever comes next. And I think that that's what happened in that period of time, which was through like 20, late 2060, because my son was born in late 2016. So I went through my own period of like, okay, guys,

I can't be out all the time. But that's so important, the product of your environment, right? Because I can guarantee if your brotherhood, your core group of friends slash, you know, coworkers were not all progressing and all just going through the day-to-day that never changed, you would never change. No, you stay where you are. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So I think actually probably a lot of that started, like I would say, like my son was born end of 2016, September of 2016. Yeah.

And so from there, I started slowing down. Then, you know, probably six months, eight months later, then Hubert goes to Ali. Probably a few months after that, you know, Dave passes away. And so a lot of our...

kind of previous habits just change over an accumulation of events that have events that you know like you know each one subsequently pushing you in a new direction of thankfully a positive direction it's growing well now now that scene like you're leaving carl card and you're leaving china um you know you're you're contemplating your options so

It seems to me that really kind of like the biggest influence on all that, or for lack of a better phrase, like the straw that broke the camel's back was really Dave's passing, right? Am I wrong or is this kind of the aftermath of Dave's passing kind of?

kind of um bubbling up right now in terms of i think uh dave's passing was uh it was something that no one really foresaw and it was it's been a year already yeah it's been a bit every year and uh from from all of it i think what we've actually gained from it is more a sense of uh

it's a heightened understanding of self-development. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it's more like growing up, what we did as a frat and almost like a frat, it was great. But like, I think we matured because of that. Something so dear to us and happened. And the impact that he had on not just only us at Cargo, but everyone. Like, I mean, you guys all had met Dave. He's such a cool, loving character. And he was just, he just meant so much to many people. He was just very nice in so many ways. And

I think for me, it was just, you know, obviously no one wants that to happen. But after that, we just sort of had to recalibrate somewhat and then just sort of see how we can, you know, stick it out, but also be really appreciative of,

you know, friends in life and everyone in general. Like, I think it really brought a lot of people closer, right? There were people that were close to Dave that I wasn't very close with and, you know, we all, we shared a commonality there. I think it just brought everyone a little bit closer in some ways. Yeah, with someone like Dave, obviously we were all friends with him here, but, you know, you guys were especially, you two were especially close to him. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I've never... You know, after he passed, I've, you know, and kind of everyone that kind of came out, I never saw... I never knew anyone that was liked by as many people as he was. You know? He was... Literally everyone in Shanghai, whether, you know, they were my friends or not, or like, but I knew them or didn't like them or anyone. It didn't matter what our differences was between them. We were... Like, everyone loved Dave. Right. And...

So that just goes to show you how special of a person he was. And he always seemed like the kind of person that if you were just within his radius, his sphere of influence, you would be very influenced by his charisma. By his charisma, his leadership, just his personality. Yeah, yeah.

So, you know, I'm looking at, so I'm, we're sitting here talking to you guys right now and, you know, I'm just wondering how, you know, the, the kind of the state of mind that you're both in right now, like how much of that is really, really just the aftermath of his passing, you know, like, you know, how, how much of that was really. Tons. Yeah. I mean, like, you know, uh,

Obviously, you lose anybody you care about. So for me personally, I've had a few family members that I've lost. The most devastating loss that I've experienced was when Dave died. Because even more so than those family members who I also loved dearly and was hurt by their loss, there was nobody else that I spent that much time with. But

You know, I think more importantly, like the outcome of after, you know, like you said, you asked, I think your question was like, you know, how much of our future decisions are based on, you know, his passing.

I think for me it's a tremendous amount. You know, one of the things that I was saying before is like the greatest lesson I learned about Dave was just like how do you spend your day-to-day life, right? Like who do you surround yourself with? How important are the people that you surround yourself with? Because he was one of those people that just like his energy recharged when he was around other people. And I'm actually one of those people that actually recharges when I'm by myself. Oh, yeah.

But I really learned and appreciated how to tap into other people's energy to make myself feel like, you know, more and more inspired, more creative and all these things. And so as I realized, like, after, you know, he was gone, I was like, wow, you know, the time that I spend with the people I care about the most, which is, you know, my wife and my son, is the most important time. It's the most important use of my time. Right.

Like the way that I can be a positive influence to them, the way that I could try to learn from them both. And the best way to do that is through time. And so like,

a major major driving factor behind why you know I'm leaving Shanghai and not saying I'm going to I'm going back to America it's not I'm not running away from Shanghai I'm not running back to America like you know for me it's I'm

Going to see like what can we do to explore together? Like how deep can we go with each other? Like these are super super important people to me and I'm super important to them and how can we do something really really meaningful together because you know, I visited Dave's family back in Seattle after he passed and I

you know, there's a gap there, right? Like he, like he, he was here in Shanghai for a long time and, and they were living, uh, back home, you know, waiting for, for him to do his work and, and, you know, come back home. And there's a lot of lost time there. And there's a lot of lost, like, um, what do you call it? Like, like mutually exclusive, uh,

Or maybe that's not the right word, but it's more like, hey, I'm going to help you through these challenges that you're going to face in your life. And you're going to help me at the same time face all the challenges in my life. So that's like the mutually exclusive benefit that you guys share. That's a special bond that can't be replaced by anything else. So I look to him as, wow, you taught me the value of those relationships, right?

I'm so sorry you didn't get to have that at the same level

with your family because you were doing something you were sacrificing your time with them to do something and i benefited from that thing and one of the best ways that i can honor that uh sacrifice that you made was to make right by my time and that's like the circle that i look at like speaking of whole so um so that's a big big big part of what monica and i sat down and talked about like this is why i want to do this that's beautiful it's like you know like he helped in

in trying to encourage writing this new chapter of your life that you guys are going on, right? Completely. Completely, yeah. I think in terms of also in terms of the impact, you know, it had, especially I think on you two,

was that, you know, his death wasn't, it wasn't just like, oh, one day you heard he had passed away and like, you know, like we did. You guys were hands-on. I mean, especially you, Bruce. You were there with him, you know, when he passed away. Right, right. I mean, I can only imagine, you know, the kind of,

So, yeah. The kind of trauma that... Yeah, so the trauma for sure. And it's more like, you know, now we live in Dave's legacy, right? I mean, cargo cart is something that's still there and we're still part of it and want to create that legacy for him. Obviously, we want it to get acquired. But, you know, coming back to what you're saying, like, I mean...

From what I learned from it, the experience was just like, you really have to appreciate every moment that you have with people that you care about and love. And sometimes it's just, you've just got to, you know,

if there's differences or whatnot you just gotta set those aside and just you know really embrace those moments and I think he really rearranged my priorities in life you know there was a time where you know I'd be out there and I thought it was cool to hang out with all these people and just be like just be cool and oh you know I know such and such and you're like oh you're in you're in right you're in the in group but more and more I look at it I'm like you know I'm okay with having less friends like I don't need to meet more people like I feel like

Time is such an important, valuable asset that you want to share it with the people that you care about the most. Being on this podcast with you guys, hanging out with you guys on our Sundays, the fact that you guys are spending your own time just to even have this, it just shows a lot about how much you care about us and everything else. It's a different level of using your time wisely.

Dave's passing was just unforeseeable, man. I was with him at Tim's wedding, Tim Wilson, right? And we come back from Thailand and we usually do our little catch-ups, right? So we do a recap, a trip recap. And that night Dave called an audible and he said, like, we're not going to hang out. I mean, we got in early.

And he said, you know, I wasn't feeling well, you know. And I was like, oh, yeah, it's probably because of all the drinking that we had. I mean, we were the only table at Tim Wilson's party that, you know, they were charging him later on post-wedding based on how much the table consumed, right? So, like, all the people that came to his wedding, like, no one drank. So we were the party table. Everyone came to hang out with us.

Of course. So they go to Tim, hey Tim, this table ordered 69 shots. 69 shots. And Tim's like, no, my friends don't drink, no one drinks. And they're like, oh, no, this table. And then,

And then Tim's like, were you guys at this table number six? We're like, yeah, table number six. We had the party. And he's like, oh, okay, your bill was really expensive. Because, like, you know, we were the ones that had the party going. Do you just have to pay the bill? I know we did. I don't think so. We gave enough money for him to. Anyway, we were at the party table, right? So then obviously coming back into Shanghai.

You know, we didn't think too much of it. Dave, you know, it was an early morning flight. We landed and it was polluted that day. And he's like, oh, I'm having trouble breathing. And I was like, oh, okay. We're just probably tired. It was five days in Thailand. I was actually supposed to, because I think that was a Sunday. That was a Sunday, yeah. And I was supposed to have dinner with you guys.

I said, hey, guys, I want to get the download of the trip. Yeah, yeah. So I sent out a message. And I think before you boarded the flight, I said, hey, are we still on for tonight? And I think he had responded, absolutely, game on. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, you know, a lot of things just changed very fast. And then after that, he started sending out messages. Yeah, and then, you know, it was that evening when he started. Because, you know, Dave is a very healthy guy. He knew his body, I think, you know, better than many people. Very well. He exercised a lot. He actually ate pretty healthy. He did, yeah. Yeah.

And then, you know, that night, he was like, you know, guys, I think something's up. And then we're like, okay, make sure you get, like, an appointment to the doctors the next day. And he set that up. We didn't think too much of it because, you know, Dave knew how to look after his body, right? It sounded like a flu. Yeah, it just sounded like a flu. You know, he just said, hey, man, I'm having a bit of a fever. And, you know, it's kind of hard to breathe. Right, it's really weird. It's hard to breathe. But that was, like... Well, also, like a normal...

you know, reaction is not thinking the worst, right? Not thinking the worst. You just think it's... Well, especially because he's coherently typing. He's not... You know, there was... There were no other signs. Like, I don't think we did anything less than what we would have done had I gotten the message from any of us, right? You didn't think too much of that. There would be no reason to. Hey, get some rest. Drink some water. Yeah, let's talk tomorrow. Right, right. Yeah.

There's no reason to think otherwise. And then it was funny because he was like, oh, next day I have an appointment at 11, so it's okay, guys. I'll just sleep it through. Yeah, I think he owed me a lunch because you didn't get laid during the wedding.

Bam. Damn. I didn't like, yeah, damn. All right. I said, I'm taking that free lunch. You went to the, you went to the lunch and for some, well, Dave was still under the weather, right? So Dave reached out. No, I didn't go to, no, no, because you were close to it. You went to go have lunch at like, uh, Oh, I just did my own thing. Oh, yeah. So, so basically, uh, well, not to, to get too sloppy with the story, but like, uh, yeah. So basically the following day, which was a Monday. Yeah. Um, uh,

And Dave messaged me in the morning and said, hey, man, sorry, I'm still feeling under the weather. Let's reschedule. I was also supposed to meet Ashmit, but I'm going to cancel on him, the co-founder. And so he said, okay, I'm going to cancel. So I said, no problem. So I just went and got my own lunch. I got a message from Dave. He was like, you know, not to be gay or anything, but I think with my appointment at Parkway, which is –

at the Ritz Carlton which is just opposite his place he's like you know I think I need someone to help me get there and I was like oh okay was that when you thought like something was up no because we joked about all this shit like don't be a puss what are you talking about like you know don't like come on don't over exaggerate so he was still being humorous yeah so we were still joking about it and then when I saw him I was like yo dude what up did you rest and he was in a laid back position and I was at his house and I was like are you okay and he was like yeah I'm just having difficulties breathing but I didn't think much more of that just like

Okay, I don't know what's going on, but let's just get you to the doctors anyway. Your appointment's coming up. And I think the biggest thing when I first realized something was wrong was when there's these spiral stairs that go up to the Parkway Health at the Portman, right? So you know the little squiggly ones that go up? And then so he didn't quite make it up to the top, but he was walking up. And as he reached the top, he was sweaty. He was out of breath. He was like... I was like, holy shit, are you okay? What happened? Like, what's up? Like, are you...

"Are you playing me right now, dog? This is not you, you're healthy." I didn't know at the time, I was like, "Fuck, let's get you in." And then as we sat in the check-in area, he's laying down, and then part of Parkway's thing is they've got to do a reading of you. So they slapped him to a system, it couldn't get a reading of him because he wasn't sat properly.

Sat him up and then you know obviously Dave is really knows his health really well He came back from Thailand with it like a perfect bill of health too, right? So he was super proud of that And then you know, I think he went and sat with a doctor and had a one-on-one and he's like it's okay Bruce You know go hang out. I got this so they had a little chat and obviously there's no you know No hereditary disease. There's no certain things of that nature and they kind of I think they missed out knows him But they just put him on a drip right and there's a come back tomorrow

we'll do another blood test, but why don't you take a drip bag? So at the time, after an hour he took the drip bag, he felt a little bit better, and then he went to go take a piss. And then when he came back, and he's like, oh shit, I'm feeling really bad. And then that's when everything just went like, just crazy, right? Because that's when, you know, they brought out this other machine, it's an EGK or EKG, whatever it is.

They slept alone and they're like, oh, shit, I think what you had was you had a mini heart attack already. And I think that's when it was like... Sent them into panic? Yeah, everyone's like, when did this happen? Like, we went from just saying, hey, come back tomorrow, I think you're dehydrated, to like, yo, you just had a mini heart attack and we need to take you to the nearest, you know, you know,

hospital, right? To see what's up. We have to put something down here. And that just sent off a whole bunch of everything, man. And that was a crazy period of time. Yeah. And then, so then... You went to the hospital, right? I got there. I was with the two founders of the company sitting in a meeting room. We were just talking about some shit. And...

And then Bruce calls us and I wasn't even, you had called Ashmit. I think I called Ashmit, but like what happened was because I called Amber, the PA, like yo, that's my assistant. And I was like, you know, there's a lot of shit going on here at Hwasa and

I mean, it was probably like from Portman to Hwasan, it was probably a space of five minutes, right? Everything happened. Dave was still like responsive, everything was off. But I think just the traumatic experience of actually going from Parkway, you know, everyone around you going, holy shit, you just had a heart attack, right? Like, don't know what's going on. Let's get you to a place. Like all these doctors like tripping out because they missed it, diagnosed him. These new doctors coming on board like, oh shit, we can't even get like this heartbeat on him. Let's take him to the hospital. Oh,

all that together and then as we're heading there just like you know he had another episode right and you know it was just a crazy situation and then we get there and it was probably within five minutes he was in the er um and i called uh amber i got amber shit something's

you know, Dave just had a heart attack right now. I just need you here because I need to deal with some of the other paperwork or whatever it is that they need. So she comes and then I think she was there for 15 minutes and Dave would be in there for about 30 minutes and the doctor comes down and goes, you know, we probably need to talk to the next of kin. I mean, you know, and we're like, what happened? What's going on? They don't let you look in, right? But you just see his feet there and you're trying to rush him. You're like, yo, I think he's okay, right? Because it was only five minutes from when he had it to like when he got to ER and

And then that's when I freaked out. I was like, oh shit, I probably have to call the guys at the office. And I think I called Arshmint and you guys happened to be in the same meeting. And these guys just came over and then that was kind of, we were just waiting outside of Hwasan for the longest time. A couple of hours. Yeah.

You know, yeah. I mean, to their credit, like, so when I got there, I just thought everything's going to be okay. Yeah, yeah. I just thought, you know, he had a heart attack. Because it's Dave, you know. He's strong. He's always going to pull. Because I know people who have had heart attacks. And, like, you know, like, we have family, friends, and people that are, they survive it.

So I just thought, it's all right, you know, because... You got to be careful after that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're recovering. You're thinking, oh, we're going to trickle up a little bit. Yeah, we're going to have to drink glass. We're going to cut down on the champagne. We're going to put a little jump. We're going to put this little rainbow macaroni. Put this macaroni over the blockage. And then you're going to be fine. And then we're going to hang out. We're going to talk. So, yeah, it was fucked up, man. Yeah.

It was a tough, tough day. But to the credit of the people at Hua Shan Hospital, I mean, like, they just, like, kept trying for hours. They said that usually it's in, like, 20 or 30 minutes where they stop. And they were there for, like, 60 or 90 minutes. You know, they were, you know, really responsive of things. But did they... One thing I still don't know to this day, I don't think... I mean, I don't know if you know, but, like...

Is there a reason? I mean, there still has to be a reason, right? You know, I don't think we'll ever know that, Howie, to answer your question. Like arteries blocked or like... No, no. I think with these things, it's really hard to find out retroactively unless they have like a history, prior history of a certain thing. But if it's just... It was so weird that it happened. Yeah. At the end of the day, you know,

So here's one of the other things that, again, I'm just talking. It's not like a medical fact or anything like that. But it gets assessed as a heart attack. But it could have been other types of organ failures, right? Like everybody always says, oh, it's like your heart attack. But you have so many critical organs in your body that if they do stop working, your heart will stop.

Right. So like, you know, when people like, so you have a heart attack when there's like a clear blockage or if you have like a brain aneurysm or like blood doesn't get to your brain, a blood clot, you have a stroke. That's basically a brain attack, right? Like basically blood, oxygenated blood isn't getting to these organs. But if any other organ stops working as well, your heart will probably be the one that stops and gets assessed as a heart attack.

I don't think we'll ever know if it was a heart issue, if it was like a blood clot of any kind, which can happen from, like it could have been an injury. Like if you, I had a friend back in San Diego, he was skiing one year and fell and he had like his ski pole jammed to his leg over here. Five years later, he's, we're just walking around

Or he was walking with his girlfriend at the time and I was on my way to his place. And he just like collapses and starts vomiting blood. Gets rushed to the hospital. Thankfully, he was totally fine eventually because they like caught everything. But there was a blood clot in his leg exactly where that injury was.

So, you know, had he not gotten help in time, eventually his heart wouldn't have received enough oxygenated blood and he would have passed away. So it's so impossible to know, was it, you know, arterial blockage? Was it from any type of like, you know, other type of aneurysm or these types of things where, you know, you hemorrhage in one place and then the oxygenated blood doesn't make it back to the heart?

But I think the medical term was myocardial infarction. Yeah, myocardial infarction. Yeah, there you go. Which is a heart attack. Which is a heart attack. And like Britt said, probably there's other elements of it that we just knew or knew. But I think what really caught everyone off guard was the fact that he was just such a healthy human being that it could just really happen to anyone at any time. And we were just definitely not prepared for it in any way.

any aspect of that. Thanks. Yeah, so that was a rough day. I think Bruce lived through... No, no, we did it together and it was a rough period for all of us. Even until now, I mean, it's still a, you know, I look at it not in a... It's sad in that way, but I kind of look, I try to cherish and look at all the great moments that we had. If it wasn't for Dave, I probably would not have met Brett.

I wouldn't yeah I think there's so many elements that were things that changed I feel like if it wasn't for Dave I wouldn't have I wouldn't have a China story I would have come here probably taught English for years yeah I wouldn't I wouldn't have anything that I have you know so a lot is there today for sure in our lives and

You know, he always tried to make us better people, right? Like, I mean, he sometimes gave a shit. But for me, it was more about relationship side and girls because, you know, sometimes I was hopeless and sometimes I was just too over-eager. And then he taught me the ups and downs of how to approach certain things. And at times, you just thought, oh, he was just, you know, busting my balls. But in some ways, he was being really upfront and honest and being like, hey...

You gotta change your approach sometimes. You can't just be like this. - He told you what you needed to hear. - Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. To be a better person, I think. Not to be a better person, but just to refine a little bit of, there's nothing wrong with us. It's just more like, huh, just opening up your eyes to different views and just sometimes like, you know, coming back to when I thought it was cool, like, yo, your nigga's ain't ready.

I think it was great that you guys never, like, responded and be like, yo, that's really cool. It was more like, shit. You're so cool. Yeah, it wasn't any of that. So I think that made me go, oh, hey. I don't think this is the right thing to do. Turns out I'm not cool, mom. Yeah. These guys, yeah, they're like, oh, this is what I did five years ago. Well, look, I was, you know, for...

For a few days before this podcast that we had scheduled, I was on the fence as to whether or not we should even talk about Dave or whether or not you guys even really want to talk about him. But I'm really glad that we did because especially with you two here, not only what you two bring to the table individually, but I know Dave had a huge impact on your lives and especially your time here.

And as a result of that, kind of a big impact on where you guys are now and where you guys are going to be headed in the future. You know, as a little more distant from you guys, but we were all friends of Dave's. And I'm not just saying this, but I really... And I said this to Howie, you know, the day we heard the news. And I don't think I know...

More like kind of just all-around beautiful person that is Dave in terms of what I saw of him you know and and the amount of people that Enjoyed to be around him. You know that's not something like I can't be that you know there are people that don't like me There are people that do like me. I mean, but he seemed universally well liked

everyone and that to me is just like mind-blowing you know that that someone could could be that and have that kind of charisma and energy around them to kind of affect people that way you know i don't i really don't know anyone else like that yeah i think he's gonna be another dave you know yeah let's cheers to that cheers cheers to him thanks um thank you guys for coming on and and sharing and um

you know, good luck. Good luck to you, Brett, in the future. Thanks, man. Thanks for having me. Bruce. Thank you. Thank you, sir.