Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
Hey everybody, I don't have too much to say today, so I'm just going to get right into it. Today's guest is a professional MMA manager, meaning he manages mixed martial arts fighters here in China. He has also competed in Taekwondo and is a former amateur boxer.
You may or may not know, MMA and combat sports in general are becoming wildly popular here in China, especially with Zhang Weili's recent win in the UFC. So we sat down with Kevin over some bourbon, and I do have to say the conversation kind of got away from us. It went completely off the rails and off topic, but like how many natural conversations go, you get sidetracked sometimes and you start talking about completely random things.
So we started the conversation talking about Taekwondo and boxing. Then we talk a bit about bourbon. Then all of a sudden, we find ourselves deep into a conversation about fried chicken and buffalo wings. We then somehow pivot that discussion to Asian racial insecurities. So before we know it, time was up. It was an interesting conversation to say the least. So please give it up for the one and only Kevin Yee.
Cheers. Cheers. Great to be on the phone. Thanks. You're welcome. Thank you for coming. Thank you.
You're another guest we've been trying to get on for a very long time. No way. Yeah, and I've talked to you about this before for a while now. But you've been away, you were in Hawaii just before you came back. And you have two kids now, so I'm sure you've been busy with that. But you're a very interesting person to talk to. Thank you. Because I find your personal journey very interesting and very inspiring for me. Just because we share a lot of the same interests.
for the martial arts and in particular boxing. Yeah. So just give us a brief background of who you are today. Okay, cool. I was born in China. You know, I spent a lot of time in the UK, hence this accent. So daytime, I actually have a day job. I'm an executive of an insurance broker, an American insurance company.
Brokerage even, not insurer. And I coach boxing on the side. And another passion project of mine is managing MMA fighters, professional MMA fighters. Pretty much did everything by accident. By accident? Yeah. So you fell into these things by accident, you mean? Yeah, you can say that.
But you have, from your younger days, you started in Taekwondo first, right? Was that your first thing? I did. I competed in Taekwondo as well. I competed in the British Student Championships. So you're a black belt. Do they go by belts in Taekwondo? Yeah, black belt. I was black belt. First time black belt.
WTF? What a name, WTF. WTF. It's the World Taekwondo Federation. There are two types, all right? It's the International Taekwondo Federation, ITF. Uh-huh.
That's started by the North Korean general, in South Korea. Okay. And WTF is the official Olympic-style Taekwondo. Okay. So WTF, so my style is WTF. WTF. What the fuck, Taekwondo? Shout out. What the fuck's your style, man? Shout out to my coach, Eddie Ellison, 6'10". He was an Olympian, you know.
Yeah, so you were a pretty accomplished practitioner. I wouldn't call myself accomplished, but I was okay. But you were competitive, right? You were competing. Yes, yes. I got bronze medal in the 99 or 2000 British Student Championship. I lost to a guy from Sheffield, I think, University of Sheffield. I represented Lancaster University. That was my uni.
What age did you pick it up? 18. Okay. That's pretty late. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So, you know, I always did a little bit something. I never really did any real martial arts until...
until later, you know, when I got into Taekwondo. But I just got a knack for it, you know. Well, Howie, you were Taekwondo. Was that Taekwondo? Yeah, Taekwondo. So Howie was Taekwondo. Are you a motherfucker as well? Yeah, I was not WTF. But yeah, I was in... He was WTF. In a way, I was WTF, right? So you are amongst Taekwondo people, you two. Yeah. So you were Howie...
Howie was known for his form. I was. Oh, poomsae. Poomsae, it's called, yeah.
So basically, he's always cracking jokes at me. Is that like the bitch class of like real Taekwondo? Oh, you're form, like you're not real. Like you guys look down on people like, you know. Like do all this, like, whoa, you know. Well, you know, in tournaments, right? And like, I mean, I don't know how it was over there. But like for our regional tournaments, it was broken down into three categories, right? Forms, breaking, and fighting, sparring. Yeah, we only have the sparring and form. So the real stuff.
Where the real men are. Breaking sounds quite badass anyways. Yeah, so basically I always swept in forms. Okay, cool. That came in handy at Cashbox though. That came in handy at Cashbox. So he's got four, bam! I knew how to count from one to ten in Korean, but now I can only remember about three or four.
That's it, yeah. So how did you get into boxing? Because you were an amateur boxer, right? Yeah. And you competed on the amateur level? Yeah. This was back in the UK? Yeah. Just club level. Very low level, really. Well, basically, you know, when I found out Taekwondo, it was not very practical. Yeah.
Well, okay, that's not a fair comment. I mean, Taekwondo is a very good combat sport, but it's not complete. You use a lot of legs, you know, in competition especially, in WTF, or ITF, you know, but the different rules basically. In WTF, Olympic style, we see as, you know, people do a lot of fancy kicks. Uh-huh.
And they're hands down because you're not allowed to punch an opponent in the face. In the face, yeah. They can kick to the face. The reality is the chance of you getting kicked in the face is very rare. So you can afford to keep your hands down and do a lot of, you know, just fancy kicks, right? Knowing that you're not going to get clipped. Or why is it rare?
Because it's easy to see a kick coming. If you're in the street, I mean, most people are not going to kick you in the face. Unless somebody is really good, you know. But, you know, it's easier to defend yourself when somebody was kicking you. It becomes predictable. And yes, you're right. It's a long way for feet to travel, right, to the head. The motion is more exaggerated.
If you're ready, if you know you're in a fight, but if you don't know you're in a fight, someone just comes up and kicks you. Yeah, well, if you're really good, I mean, still, I've seen some of the really high-level Taekwondo fighters, which I'm not. The Olympic level, their feet are just so fast. They don't need to punch that much. But still, for us mortals, I try to do
do some like light sparring with people in boxing and got my ass kicked, you know, that sort of stuff. And I realized, hell, this is not right because you don't have the space to move around like that. And once you close your distance and, you know, and then your legs become useless. Yeah, feet are taken out of the equation. Yeah, yeah. So the most direct form of attack is still your hands. The most natural way for people to fight is your fists, basically.
Yeah, so I thought boxing maybe. And then, you know, as soon as I started training with boxing people, you know, going to clubs and I realized that's really something I really enjoy.
There's something noble about boxing, just two hands. You choose your basic weapons. There's something pure about it, right? Yeah, this is your sword. It's just a beautiful form of combat sport, really. Even just with simple weapons, two hands of yours, there's so many combinations, so many things you can do, the tactics, the strategy, the mind game. That's why I love it.
But I feel like for you to have just walked in and just picked up boxing more like kind of casually and willy-nilly, for you to have competed at the level you did on that, even though at an amateur level, I mean, that is pretty impressive.
Right? I mean, most people, when they get into the gym, they want to pick up boxing. They'll never reach even the amateur level. I mean, you know. Yeah. Well, I guess, you know, I always had a competition background in Taekwondo that kind of made it easy for me. You know, I know what it feels like to be kicked in the face. So, you know, I got kicked in the face many times. So I thought, well, that's fine.
find that. Stress and pressure of a fight is not going to deter you. Yeah, I kind of got used to the rhythm pretty fast, you know, the distance control because Taekwondo is all about distance control, timing, speed and I've got all those already, you know, I was already coordinated so it's very easy for my coach to train me. Oh, okay, you already know what to do. Combos and stuff like that. Yeah, you already know what to do so it's just kind of, you know, just different form and you know, you know,
to rid of some of your bad habits and don't drop your hands, that sort of stuff. And the rest is easy. You know, the rest is, you know, that sounds cliche, but the rest is your heart, basically, your willingness to actually go there and face the pressure, you know, to overcome the obstacles. So, yeah, that's it really. It's quite translatable, is that a word?
It is a word, I don't know if it's a word. Yeah, well, the skill set or the mentality of Taekwondo can be easily translated into boxing. You know, as long as, I think all combat sports are similar in a way, as long as this combat sport has full form of sparring.
You are against a fully resistant opponent. You practice again and again and it'll be easy for you to translate that to the next sport. The problem with most people, I think, is they don't want to. Because once you reach a certain level, when I was a black belt in Taekwondo, most people were just like, I don't want to get involved.
and boxing and stuff from the beginning, you know, get my ass kicked again and again, you know, I have my dignity. It's more of like an ego thing? Yes, hugely ego thing, which is why, you know, most boxers, you know, ask them to do kickboxing, get out of here, you know, you want to do jujitsu, you know, most people just like laugh at you, what, you want to like gay wrestle? That's just, you know, just the thing and
Even for the jujitsu, I think jujitsu people tend to be more open-minded, I guess. They tend to be more chill, but the boxing has got this hard, macho style, kickboxing as well.
I don't want to go down on the ground. No, this is my sport. We stay on our feet. Yeah, especially boxing. But do you think that's changing now with the popularity of MMA and UFC? Starting to, I think. But still, there's a very old school mentality within boxing. For sure. In Taekwondo, to a certain extent.
to a certain extent. Yeah, so I still remember. I mean, I love him to bits. You know, my old coach, Eddie Allison, you know, he's six then or something. He's crazy. He's one of the best kickboxers ever. You know, he's a great Olympian. You know, it was like national champion
But I still remember him teaching us, like, what's your piece of bullshit? Like, grab you, do this, this. No, no, no, if you're stronger than him, why don't you just kick him? Well, you know, I think you were wrong, Eddie. But anyways. So when did you come to China? So those were your early days in the UK, right? Yeah.
Yeah. So when did you come here to Shanghai? Well, I was born in China and actually spent my childhood in China as well. Oh, yeah. So when did you come back? Where in China? I came back at Yangzhou. Oh, Yangzhou. Yeah. I'm a Hakka. My great-granddad is from Hunan, but I was just talking to Eric about this. But I was born in Yangzhou. I grew up in Yangzhou as well, actually. So I came back to Shanghai in 2010.
From England? From England, yeah. I lived in Philadelphia as well. Oh, you lived in Philly? Yeah, I lived in Philly. I went to school there. Really? Yeah. Yeah.
How long were you in Philly for? Just a year. I was working for a British company that sent me as an expat to Philly. Loved it. Did you like it? One of my favorite cities in the world. Yeah, Philly's pretty cool. It's pretty cool, huh? One of my best friends in Philly. Longwood Gardens. Have you been there? No, I haven't. I lived in South Jersey, Cherry Hill. Cherry Hill? Yeah, I worked in Philly.
It's not a big city though, right? It's a very small, very walkable city. You don't even need a car if you live in the city centre. It's very convenient, very quaint. That's pretty cool. Yeah, it's got a bad reputation that it doesn't deserve, unlike many cities. Well, Philly, I've been to Philly only like two or three times, so I don't really know it that well.
But I don't know, I wasn't that impressed with it. I mean, the Philly cheesesteaks. That's the first thing that popped in my mind. My mouth gets such a drool, I'm like, Philly cheesesteaks. I know. But I thought that would be such a lowbrow comment. It'd be like, oh, did you like the Philly cheesesteaks? Yeah. It was all like, awesome from England.
I love Philly cheesesteak. To me, they're about the same. If you talk to a real Philly person, they'll tell you, well, Gino's. No, Pat King's is terrible. I'm Gino's guy. No, I'm Pat King's guy. To me, they taste as good as each other. They are tasty. Some of them will be like South Street. South Street cheesesteak. That's
That's South Philly, where Rocky is from. So some people say, none of those big brands are good. South Philly is the best. It's always going to be like that because it's tribal mentality. This is my area. This is my hood. Have you found a good cheesesteak here in Shanghai? No. No, I haven't. Have you tried Co-Cheese yet? No.
It's good, but if you were to compare it to a real Philly cheesesteak, I'm sure it's not as good. You'll never be able to. But it's the closest thing. Just like I think home slice is the closest thing to a good New York pizza here in Shanghai. Home slice is pretty damn good. Yeah, home slice is really good. It's good. I wouldn't call it pretty damn good. It's pretty damn good for Shanghai standards. But you put home slice in New York, it would just be middle of the road.
I definitely enjoy me some home slice. Yeah. It's really good. But when I go back to New York, it's just... Man, I'm so hungry. I didn't have one. I'm pretty fucking hungry right now. You need to eat something, Eric. I'm drinking. Oh, by the way, we didn't comment on this maker's, but I quite like it. Yeah, it's... Like I said... It's bringing back memories. I'm not a bourbon guy, but this is a... Easy to drink. This is really nice, yeah. And it has a really different tone than normal whiskey. Yeah. It's a...
I don't know how to say it. It's more like...
They use, I think they use a lot of corn, you know? It's American, right? So you use corn. It just tastes sweeter. It tastes a lot sweeter. But you can taste the difference right away. You know what I mean? Like, even without an untrained palate, I feel like this is like, you would know a bourbon right away. Well, I think the rye also. I like rye too. Rye is harsher. Yeah. But this is not rye, right? This is not rye. But like, I think this, the way they, makers, well, at least makers, right? They handle their bourbon. Um,
When you compare it to the rye, it's like... I think it's just like it brings out these sweeter tones. I don't know what... You said corn or something like that. I don't know where it's from, but... I don't know, to be honest. That's why I can't call myself an expert. I know just enough. But it's interesting you bring up corn because remember our last...
The last episode we had with Victor, right? He also mentioned corn in the United States. There was like this huge surplus of corn. So they were trying to use corn to make everything. It was subsidized for a long time. Like our Victor. Yeah, Fit Fresh. Yeah, Fit Fresh Victor. Yeah, he was our last guest we had on. Corn is huge in America.
Yeah, but he's saying there's a huge surplus of it. They're trying to figure out how to use it in making everything. Bring them over to China. The corn in China is terrible. It's so horrible. Seriously. I just came back from Hawaii and the corn there is off. Like,
Like from California, right? Yeah. Oh, man. So sweet, juicy. You know, it's just like boiling water two minutes and you eat it with a slap of butter. Oh, my God. Oh, Jesus. Or you grill it. I think this is turning to the food episode. I think we're all kind of hungry. We're all hungry, man. I'm always hungry. And the Mexican style, right? With like cottage cheese or whatever. Dude, Mexican corn. Chili powder. Are you free for dinner, by the way?
I just need to tell my wife, hey, love, I'm not going back. I'm headed back soon yet. Not really. What's going on? Yeah, but Mexican corn. This is one restaurant in New York City. Yeah. Cafe Habana. Have you ever been there before? No, I have not.
It just brings back memories. Am I turning really red? No, but I can tell this corn means a lot to you. Well, this Mexican corn is just... I can't get... I'm constantly ordering here. I'm trying all the different Mexican corns from all the Mexican restaurants here. Trying to find a good one. You're very fanatical. Because the corn is not good enough here. The corn is different. It's not sweet. It's like sticky, chewy.
It's just different type of corn. It's not crispy? No. Oh, it's got to be crispy. You can buy those from supermarket like seal packed, you know, like American sweet corn and those are the next best thing. It's mushy here. You get the KFC stuff, it's mushy. It's horrible. It's terrible. I wouldn't even... Not even KFC, but even if you get like, you go to like the 便利店, right? Yeah.
don't ever get the corn from the family again. It's like rubber. It's like... Yeah. I don't think anyone does get the corn from the family again. I don't think you needed to say that. Only you get the corn from the family. No, I don't. Only you buy corn from the convenience stores. Yeah, exactly.
I don't think anyone else had that issue. Wait a minute. What? From what? From like Family Mart? Yeah, from Family Mart. I don't even know this stuff. I didn't even know they had corn there. I'm a fan of corn. When push comes to shove, I wanted to try it. It was like rubbery. Yeah, it is. It is. So talking about nutrition though, like look, none of us are perfect. And with our ages, like, you know, nutrition is getting harder and harder to keep in check, right? To keep on point. What's your nutrition game like?
- Game? - Yeah, I mean like, you know, we all to some degree, and some more than others, try to keep our nutrition dialed in as much as we can, right?
So how did you find that? Because when you were younger and you were an actual competing athlete, I'm sure nutrition factored into your training regimen. No, no. Back in the days. Not at all. Competing in the 90s. That was old school? So you were just chugging egg yolks like Rocky? Well, not extreme like that. I didn't know, to be honest. I didn't even know you're not supposed to eat before a fight. I had like hamburgers.
burgers. We were fine. I literally wanted to just throw up. Seriously. Excuse me. I was so...
It was so terrible, nothing about you know, just bring you know, because, because especially in in in Taekwondo, right? It's a tournament form. Sometimes you have to fight like twice, three times a day. And and you just sit most of the time, just sit down and wait, you get you got to eat something right? It starts in the morning and runs all the way to the afternoon. So you just bring chocolate bars.
I had no idea, you know. It was only later on, you know, and I realized I need to get a girlfriend. You know that video, this Australian, Asian-Australian kid, really geeky, really skinny guy, you know. He goes like, I need a girlfriend. I have a six-pack, I have a chest.
you know you know that one there's a comedian yeah yeah it's like on youtube it's really funny really really popular now do you have young jamie here but anyways this isn't the joe wilkin podcast oh justin come on you can a few more episodes we'll be there all right uh so you know we didn't know anything about nutrition i only got into dieting uh and because i wanted to look good you know it's not for
athletic performance. I was an amateur athlete. I wasn't a professional athlete. Nutrition, I wasn't a big thing really. But now, yes, as I get older, I do need to watch my weight. Definitely. Yeah. And I don't exercise as much as I used to.
So I guess, you know, just be sensible really. If I eat too much, the next day I try to eat less. But still, you know, I'm such a good eater. And I put on weight really, really easy. Inside me there's a big fat kid.
- Me too. - Inside and outside me. - I think we're all the same here. Not this guy, but let's stay here. - But for an insurance guy, you seem to keep pretty fit. Do you find it hard to keep fit? Or do you find it hard to keep your nutrition game on point here in Shanghai? - Absolutely, absolutely. - Why? Why do you think it's hard?
It gets harder when you have a family, young kids. You just eat whatever. You don't have time to exercise. Most of the time it's with my family. I just have to squeeze the workout in here and there.
I guess, you know, dad diet works a little bit, you know, you know, dad diet. What's the dad diet? Yeah, what's the dad diet? Leftover from your kid, you know, so, so sometimes I skip breakfast. It's totally not healthy. Don't do it. Don't do it. But I do find it, it keeps my weight down, you know, in that way. So sometimes, you know, I'll be busy making breakfast for my son, three-year-old son. And,
And after that, it was already 8 o'clock. Shit, I need to go to work, right? So take him to school. I go to work. And whatever he doesn't eat, I'll just scrape up the leftover and eat it.
So, probably I would only consume 200 calories in the morning. And then lunchtime, all right, just buy whatever downstairs from work. It's easy. So the only thing left for a meal is dinner, a good dinner. You can only eat so much, or your stomach is only that big. So I guess overall it kind of balances itself out.
So not the healthiest, but it kind of works. Do you eat home-cooked dinners or do you... I do. I try to. Actually, I love cooking. I'm a big chef myself. I cook all kinds. But just... I'm lazy. I'm lazy. I like to cook. What do you make? What's like a typical... I love French food. I can make French, Italian, Greek, you name it. What? You're like a renaissance man. You have your hands on a little bit of everything. I should have lived in an ancient Greek...
Ancient Greece. Yeah. Well, congratulations on your new baby girl, by the way. Thank you very much. He just had a new daughter. Oh, wow. Thank you. Cheers on that. Cheers. You brought up kids, so I just wanted to... Yeah, cheers. What's the baby daughter's name? Zoe. Zoe. When did she come? Little hoppa baby. Sorry? When did your wife give birth? Uh,
30th of March so she's a four month old okay amazing she's already rolling over she's beautiful man she's just so gorgeous little halfsy baby you know brown hair you know brown eyes so what your wife what's her background yeah
She's white, but I mean, what's her... That's it. No, she's a teacher. She's a teacher at an international school. Did you meet her here in Shanghai? Yeah, I did. Is she British? No, she's American. She grew up in Hawaii and California. That's why we go to Hawaii every year. That's cool. What was I going to say? She's a teacher. She's a surfer.
One of the reasons I get to
Stay healthy, I guess. It's because my wife is very healthy. She likes to work out. She's an athlete. She's a swim for the school. So she keeps you in check, in a way? In a way, yeah. And she'll tell me in the face, you're getting fat. Got a double chin. Well, yeah, all wives do. All girlfriends, all wives, I think. She sounds Chinese. All the same. Come on, seriously. Just, yeah, just...
Yeah, I'll tell you. Oh, you're getting fat. Okay, you should not hesitate. But what about being here do you find hard to keep fit? So many...
delicious things. But there's delicious things everywhere though, right? Or maybe not so much in the UK. Yeah, you're probably right. It's actually quite easy to diet. I mean, that's my personal opinion anyway. It's easy to diet in the UK because the restaurant food is shit most of the time. Really? Yeah. You have really high-end, good restaurants, fantastic restaurants, you know. And
some of the best Michelin stars. Nor you have like Fish and Chips, you know, Curry House, Chinese Takeaway, that sort of stuff. Those are good, but it's in between. Nothing really in between. No, no, no. That's terrible. You know, you're thinking about the Arby's, the Ruby Tuesdays, the, you know, that sort of stuff. Like the family type restaurants. Yeah, Red Lobsters. Arby's is amazing. If those are the...
standard, then the British level is way down. You're an average cafe. Which is so terrible. And the average British diet is so terrible, so bad. Beans on toast, that sort of stuff. It's not very good. But then again, supermarket...
In supermarkets, you have so many good things, huge selection of all kinds. It's easy to stay healthy that way. You can just cook at home, pick whatever you want. But the challenge in China, actually, when I first came back to China, I was a gym rat, health nut. I wanted to look good. I sported a six-pack, looked really good. So this was 2010. I was kind of single.
I wasn't. Okay, so this is another story of, you know, I have a story to tell about the Bourbons as well because I used to go to Kentucky quite a lot. I used to go to the capital, the Bourbon capital, Louisville, a lot because of my work. But, you know, when I came back in 2010, I was still married, but that was kind of falling apart, really. So, I was theoretically married, I guess, you know. Well,
Legally. In practice, I was saying that you guys were separated, but you guys were legally married. And just to be clear, but listen, this is your previous marriage. We're not talking about your current life. No, no, this is a previous marriage. So I wanted to look good, you know, and, you know, and, and,
I think I consider myself as a good looking guy, you know, I had lots of girls, of course, you know, always. So that kind of kept me fit. Back in 2010, Shanghai? Yeah, of course, you know. Shanghai was a good time. We must have been in the same place at the same time. Oh, for sure. We were competing against this guy. You mentioned Muse?
No, no, no. My default was Park 97. Oh, yeah. Fuxing Gong. I had multiple defaults. Fuxing Gong. Guandi. Guandi. Park 97. Guandi? I don't know. Yeah, they had cashbacks. By 2010, Guandi was already... Yeah, it was done. It was done. Park 97. Park 97 lasted a little longer, but that was... Back then, it wasn't called Park 97. It was already called Muse 2 or something, right? Or...
He was three or something like that. Richies. Two, two, two. Richies. But when it was still part, like real part 97, Wandi was still around at that time. So I already lost track of what we were talking about.
I'm the worst guess you have. You were a gym rat when you came back to China. Yeah, I was. You were saying the food was really bad in England. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember now. So when I first came back, it was easy for me to find food, easy to prep food in the supermarket in England.
So when I got back, I thought, all right, okay, I can go to the likes of Walmart or Carrefour. You know, I'm going to find the same thing. Big mistake. Yeah. That was your first mistake. I went to the Walmart and Carrefour at the time. It was like, what the fuck is this? It's nothing like the supermarkets you would see in the U.S. and U.K. Nope, nope, nope. Well, even the Walmart compared to Walmart standards in the U.S. here is not up to par. Horrible. Walmart's bad.
Caravos is getting better, but then they got sold. They're closing down, apparently. Well, isn't Walmart closing down? They came into China real aggressively back... I don't know when they came in, but several years ago, they came in very aggressively. But now you hardly ever see them. So I thought... There's too many better choices now. But they're opening Sam's Clubs now. And Costco. I'm excited about that. Yeah, Costco is going to be...
game-changing well as long as they don't it up we'll see we'll see as long as i don't it up you know yeah um you know i was excited when best buy first came in here but you know that was it was like it was completely no point to go into best buy first of all like you're buying things that like more expensive yeah their selection was terrible compared to what they had in the states yeah um so it was completely irrelevant but do you do you okay here's a little uh side tidbit about that
Because I remember when Best Buy came in and I forgot where I got this information from but there was it was through like industry people So Best Buy came to China in like late 2000s or like 2010 or something like that and basically they got they shut down within like Half a year or something like that or a year It was not a long time and at that time Suning, Guomei, Guomei is like yeah, they were like the big ones, right? Yeah, and plus you had like Diannaochun and stuff like that. Yeah, so
One of the big reasons why they could not compete was because when people... Well, number one is when you go to Best Buy, they're like, "Oh, try everything." Like that was the big American way, right? Just try everything. But then like Chinese people didn't really care about trying everything. They're like, "Okay, what can I get with that?" Like, "Where's my free crock pot with this?" Well, they wanted to haggle. Yeah, and that's the second one is the haggling. So, okay, that's the price. I'll give you this much.
because even in like Suning like you can at that time now you can't but like at that time yeah you can haggle you can haggle or you can be like send me some more stuff or if I'm gonna get that camera give me some throw in some other things SD cards or like give me some give me a crock pot give me an oven yeah
You know, they're like, yeah, you got an oven. But in the States, they're like, no, there's none of that. You can't wait until Best Buy and be like, throw in some other things. Yeah, Best Buy is like, no, this is the price. Like, I'll give you like 15% off. Come on. It's like, no, this is the price. Yeah. Yeah.
It's a very different market. I mean, you know, one of the... But that's why I said, like, the Chinese market is still like the Rubik's Cube. You know what I mean? And it's still unsolved to this day in terms of... I mean, obviously, you have successful companies here that have came in and are successful. But... KFC. Yeah, but the Rubik's Cube that is the China market as a whole...
is still unsolved, you know? There will still be plenty of international, successful big international companies that are coming in, and a lot of them are still gonna fail. Some will succeed, but a lot will still fail.
But let's go back to what we just said about Best Buy failing here and for what reason. Let's compare it to now. I mean, now shopping habits of consumers, it's, you know, you go to Sunni, you're not haggling anymore. It's like the price is the price, right? I mean, Chinese people have evolved a bit, you know, in terms of their shopping habits and standards. So if Best Buy came in now, maybe it might be a little bit different. Well, quality is more important now, right?
know right it used to be just be price but now like they have experience they use products and then it gets fucked up yeah and they're like oh shit you know and you used to be they just want cheap and now they want good stuff and cheap and they're connoisseurs now so 10 years ago they weren't really connoisseurs of the products now they know more about general consumer yeah so they so the shopping habits are probably sort of calibrating across different places for sure definitely a bit more refined
Compared to before. Yeah, they're savvier. They're definitely savvier and the post-sale side is more and more important. Yeah, and actually the reason I mentioned Makers Mark, let's bring back to Makers Mark and bourbon. The reason I was lucky enough to sample a lot of bourbon is because my insurance work actually. You know, in my previous life, you know, with a different company,
I was looking after a Yum Brands, KFC, basically. So because of that, they were my client, so I get to go to-- - So KFC China was one of your clients? - Yeah, at the time, globally. - Oh, it was global, wow. - It belonged to a big company called Yum Brands, so KFC, Pizza Hut, Taco Bell, excuse me.
So it's a good company. So you had access to really great foods. I've been to. Well, yeah. And believe it or not, I've been to the safe in Louisville that's supposed to keep the...
the secret recipe, the original secret recipe. The Colonel's recipe? Colonel Sanders? Yes. So that's a real thing? I've been there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I always thought that was like some sort of marketing slogan. No, no, no. So there really is a Colonel's recipe. It does exist. Do you like fried chicken? I love fried chicken. Okay, hold on.
I don't want to derail the conversation. This guy's from the South. He's from Texas. I'm from Texas. So we have to have this conversation. My wife's family is... Texas, Hawaii. Her mom is Texas. Okay, cool. Texas and Arizona. Okay. Shout out to Jamie. So fried chicken...
What's your top five? My top five? I have to say my top one, not because Yum was my client. I'll say KFC is my number one. Original recipe. Original recipe. It's pretty good. Original recipe is crispy and salty. But is the original recipe they're using today still the original recipe? No.
Like the actual... So if you're saying there's a vault and they have this original must-be, is that the same as me? I'm sure they told me... I hope I won't get sued. I'm sure they told me...
It's the same recipe, but then it can be replicated by many other people. You get all the ingredients and everything. And many other people make good fried chicken. Now, how KFC revolutionized fried chicken is because they used a high-pressure cooker.
So you cook the chicken faster and more tender and juicy. Because Colonel Saunders, he had roadside. He set up KFC, the original KFC restaurants on like motorway, highway stops. So he was a real guy. Oh, for sure. He's a real guy. I thought he was just like Ronald McDonald. No, no, no, no, no. Ronald McDonald's a real guy. Uncle McDonald? You didn't know that? Really? No, shut up. Is he really? Dude, he's a clown.
No, shut the fuck up. Like, not the clown from It. Like Stephen King. No, he was Ronald McDonald. So KFC is like number one, right? Oh, so KFC is number one. I'll answer your question. And then what other ones are in your top five? Because I have to, I will share with the audience what my top five are. I feel like I'm credible. To be honest, number two, I only put in number two because it's not there anymore. It was Charlie's.
It's Charles. Captain Rooster? Captain Rooster. I thought that was a really good one. So are you just saying Shanghai or like globally? The world, globally. Wow. That's my phrase. Yeah, because, okay, so the first time I went, I still remember when he first opened Captain Rooster. I went there with Jamie and it was too tough.
you hadn't got it right yet, you know, at the time. So... There's a lot of different iterations of his fried chicken. Yeah, so he improved the recipe. So when we went back, it became really juicy and crispy on the outside and tender on the inside. So I think that was good. It was good chicken, really good chicken. And you get, like, I just like the presentation, like, chop board, you know, wooden chop, chopping board, everything.
a big piece of chicken chopped up greasy at the bottom greasy messy just how you like it you know so I like that you know number three to your question Eric is Popeye Popeye is my number one Popeye yeah I was waiting when someone said Popeye Popeye got easy Popeye is my number one but see Popeye is I don't like it that much I find the chicken dry I don't know any I don't know chicken that might be blasphemous but I find it dry that's how I feel that's how I feel you're from New York you can shoot daggers at me all you want I find it dry
You're from New York. I think the British guy has more credibility. Please continue. Oh, okay. Number four, I would say number four is just do an odd, like, you know, there are loads of Turkish guys opening these little fried chicken shops in the UK. It's like burger vans, you know, or taco stands in the US, you know, at three o'clock in the morning when you're out of the club. Yeah. When you're out of the club, you're
you're hungry, you're hangover, no, you're still drunk, you know, you want something greasy and, you know, that kind of dirty chicken. Yeah. So I'll say number four, generic term, not any particular shop, just in general. Dirty street side chicken. Yes. Yes. Shitty oil. Yes. Yes. Or street of England. That's a sentimental value, I think.
I can't think of number five because I don't know much about chicken. So I think enlighten us. Enlighten us, Master Eric. He's like, my chicken. I think Kevin and I can be friends. So I would say probably number one would be churches. And you're going to say churches. I don't even know what that is. What is it? It's amazing. I guess it's Southern. I don't even know the background. It's just a staple.
Churches. Pi Pi is definitely there if I'm in any southern city. So, Pi Pi is number two for you? You know, I'm not going to give an order. Well, you're the one that came up with the order. You were like, not five. And now you don't want to give an order? I think any of these would be great. You know, you're kind of splitting hairs here, right? So, Pi Pi is... So, let's split the hairs then. Let's split those hairs. Pi Pi is... There's a place in Savannah called Mrs. Wilkes Dining Room. It's fucking amazing.
Amazing. You got to wait an hour just to get in, and you go in. It's family style. You sit at a table with people you don't know, and they just bring fried chicken. Oh. I can just imagine, like, plates just coming down. That's nice. Insane. And then, you know, like, I know that we talked about this on a previous episode, and we don't necessarily 100% agree with their values, but, you know, Chick-fil-A, you know, they got some good shit. That's a chicken sandwich, right? Yeah, they don't do, like, a straight-up fried chicken. Yeah, but the chicken nuggets, you know, all the, like, fried, like, it's fried chicken, but not fried chicken.
You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I could eat that. I could go on a fried chicken diet in a couple years. Can I throw something out there? I don't know how you guys feel or if you guys know of, but, you know, I lived in L.A. for an extended period of time, like six years. So in L.A., in Hollywood, the big one was Roscoe's Chicken and Waffle. Oh, Roscoe's. So where does that rank? Because I went there a handful of times. I've never had it.
It was good. I mean, it's great food when you're drunk at night and after a long night out, you go and eat. So I was never sober eating it, so I can't really tell. Does that rank? Does that register anywhere on people's list? Because people in LA, they swear by it. I put it this way, right? We give it a chance. If I could have Roscoe's tonight, I would. Oh, I totally would.
Like, I don't know. Chicken and waffles is delicious. I don't think I've ever been there. Right? Chicken with some sweet maple syrup and a bite of waffles is delicious. But, you know, fried chicken is one of those things that's just naturally good. You know what I'm saying? It's like an unagi. Have you ever had shitty unagi? No. What is unagi? It's like the eel.
The Japanese kind of grill deal. It's one of those foods that's like naturally fucking good. That's a pretty abstract example. Like unagi. Yeah, but I mean... But it's like pizza. Pizza can be shit. Pizza can be bad. But as shitty as it is, it's still like... I mean, it's cheese and bread. Pizza is like specific. Fried chicken is like every culture has this notion of fried chicken. Right? Right.
The Japanese are huge on fried chicken. I just thought of mine number five. And the Koreans. I just thought of mine number five, actually. Koreans would be number six for me. Number five is the street fried chicken in Bangkok, in Thailand. Oh, it's amazing. Oh my God, it's so good. But it's dirty fried chicken, though. It's dirty fried chicken. That falls on the umbrella. Look, when it comes to street food, usually street food, no matter what kind of food you're talking about, is usually the best. The best. Street food is so good. Appetite on your job.
But you mentioned Japanese, whatever the Japanese fried chicken. Yeah, it's got to be top ten. Japanese fried chicken is good. Japanese have been doing fried chicken for a very long time. For sure. And when it comes to food, when they do something and they're very serious about something, it's usually pretty good. I'm going to say something you guys might disagree. It's more on chicken wings, but Chinese takeout chicken wings are pretty freaking good too. Fried chicken wings are good.
Wow. I heard a sigh. I heard a sigh. When it comes to chicken wings, I'm religiously, I'm a purist. Don't say it. Buffalo wings.
Yeah, of course, but I thought you were going to just come straight up with Hooters. I thought you were going to just be like, Hooters? I love Hooters. Hooters is good. Hooters is, like, highly underrated. But when it comes to chicken wings, like, I don't like teriyaki. I don't like this barbecue, all this bullshit flavors. Yeah, I agree. I'm religiously, like, I'm pure about buffalo wings. It has to be classic American buffalo wings. And...
You have to dip it in blue cheese dressing. Fuck ranch. Fuck ranch. And fuck you if you dip your buffalo wings in ranch. It has to be blue cheese. It's true. It's got to be blue cheese. I agree. I agree. He goes nuts over there. I get pissed when people like ranch. I'll tell you this story. I actually drove all the way from Philly to Niagara Falls. Okay. Yeah.
And I was with my ex-wife. We actually stopped in Buffalo, New York. Mm-hmm. And we went to the claim to be the original restaurant. They invented the buffalo wing recipe. Mm-hmm.
They claim they invented Buffalo wings. Yeah, yeah. The next morning, you'll realize every restaurant in the vicinity claimed that. It's like in New York when a diner says best coffee in the world. Yeah. But man, that was the best of wings I've ever had in my life. Really? I've got to say, yeah. Yeah, so good. So good. Yeah. Buffalo. So I've been there. Buffalo, New York. Buffalo wings. The best. I agree with you, Justin. But honestly, I would kill...
For some legit buffalo wings. Yeah. Because like the closest thing that I felt like I've had here, which to me is still kind of distant from what I remember back in the States. Yeah. The Shanghai brewery.
Like the buffalo wings there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But to me, it's still... A lot of people didn't like them though because they said they had like a kind of a... I liked... I used to like it. It's a little sour. The one on Hinsanlu. Yeah, everyone said it was sour. It's a little sour. But buffalo wings in the States are a little sour. The sauce does have a little bit of sour taste. Yeah, I agree. But yeah, you can't find a good buffalo wing here. But as a category of food...
Buffalo wings, generally speaking, is amazing. Yeah, I agree. Amazing. I prefer that over normal wings that are just fried. Like normal wings fried. Buffalo wings are the iconic epitome of wings. How could you have anything else? With blue trees. Yeah, I love blue trees. I love blue trees.
How did you make Chinese takeout wings? Where can you get that from? No, back in Chinese takeout, they would do fried chicken wings. But like, not buffalo style, just normal fried chicken wings. And to me, it had its own little taste as well. I mean, I liked it.
I always enjoyed it. Deep fried as well. Deep fried. Anything fried is good. You know, the fried chicken wings from Brasa Chicken is not bad. Have you ordered the Brasa? I've never. No, I ordered normal. They give it to you in a plastic, like in a paper bag. It's like a greasy paper bag by the time you get it. It's not bad. It's not bad. But...
Okay, let's bring the conversation back. But we had the bourbon. Did we finish the bourbon story? No, because you said you tasted a lot of bourbon, but you never really related it to why. You talked about insurance, but how does that connect to the bourbon? Yum! Brands was your customer, but then we want to take it back to the bourbon. Yes, because the head office of KFC was in Louisville, Kentucky. So was the Yum! Brands head office. So because of my work,
I had to travel to Louisville very often. So I've been there quite a few times. It's a very interesting place. - It reminds me of Kingsman. - Kingsman. - I don't know if that was not in the book. - Like Statesman or whatever and then like the British guys are like they're fucked so they have to come to America and then they go to the-- - Fucking Channing Tatum. - That's Kingsman 2. - Yeah, Kingsman 2. - Yeah.
I actually, you know, I love, I love Louisville. It's a, it's a great city. Um, it's got fantastic food, good people. It's very Southern. Um, and, uh, and, and, and, you know, I got to taste a lot of bourbon. Long story, long story short, the boring version is I got to taste a lot of bourbon. I went to a lot of restaurants and bars, you know, um,
And that recommends a lot of good stuff. And I always find that consistently, Maker's Mark is one of those just that never disappoints. Some of the good brands are too harsh or too mellow, but Maker's Mark, just straight up. It's always a safe bet.
It might not necessarily be the best bourbon, but it's almost a safe consistency. Yeah, yeah. So if I were to drink bourbon or American whiskey at home, it's either Jack Daniels or Maker's Mark. Jack, huh? Yeah, good old Jack. You enjoy drinking that straight? I do, I do. Actually, normally I wouldn't add ice to it. I just drink straight up. And I don't smoke.
But I enjoy a cigar once in a while. So when I drink a cigar, I was up there, I want to drink a cigar. When I smoke a cigar, it will be either bourbon or scotch or rum. So when you were drinking, you had tasted a lot of bourbon. Was it just because you were in Kentucky or was it because you had to wine and dine and meet a lot of your clients and you had to take them out and go out to dinners with them? Yeah.
It was actually them wining and dining us. Okay. Because it's the head office, you know, they know all the restaurants and everything. They took us to all the restaurants and bars. You go to like random little restaurants, they'll just have hundreds of bourbons on the wall.
for you. Which one? For starter, before, you know, appetizer, there you go. For starter, that's all they drink. So it was amazing. I mean, Louisville is such a strange little city, you know, and I still remember we went there. You know, it's very, just your very average American life
In many ways you go to like waterfront festival little stands you got funnel cake, you know You got deep-fried turkey turkey leg, you know, yes, but then and then you got this ACDC tribute band playing and
and that's the, I mean, not necessarily a bad way, but just very comic, right? You've got the lead singer on stage, you know, saying, you know, at the time, that was 2000, must be 2013, 14-ish, you know? Still, it was just right after Iraq and all that, you know, so the emotions are still high, you know, the lead singer was like, it was like, in the middle of the song, after like,
back to black, back in black, you know. And he was like, here, raise this glass to all our servicemen and women in the world, in Iraq. I thought, that was good. You know, okay. And kill us commies. I know. So we're all like,
Wait a minute, they're not commies. What the fuck? Yeah, USA. You know, the crowd just started cheering, USA, USA. And it was me? It was an Aussie guy. You didn't like that? My boss? No, I just found it... No, I'm just kidding.
I just found it very interesting. I found it amusing. Well, it's actually heartfelt and very genuine emotions. But, you know, you've got me, you've got an Aussie guy, you've got my friend who was also my client at the time. He was a gigantic 6'4 Chinese guy. So a bunch of us were like,
Where are we? And what is going on here? What's going on? Is Kentucky considered the South? Yeah. Totally South. So let me ask you, in that kind of environment, when that happens, or just when you're down there in general, because we talked, we touched on this in a previous episode. Coming from Asian descent and being, obviously, we look Asian, right? With a British accent. Yeah.
That's a double whammy. But when people talk, before people talk to you, they don't know you have a British accent. So that might change things. But when they look at you, they think, oh, that's an Asian guy. They don't know where you're from. Yeah. Right? But he's dressed in like a suit or something. Do you feel... Is there some sort of, some level of uncomfort or even...
No. You know, fear in any way? Like, in terms of, like, when you're in that kind of environment, and people are, and you're in the South, and people are cheering USA, USA. He's a kind of black belt, a boxer. He ain't afraid of shit. I could take care of myself. Yeah. In a street fight, probably. I'll fare okay. Um... Uh...
No, I want to say I was threatened because, you know, I was among friends as well, right? I've got, you know, local guys, you know, so you never feel threatened, you know, in a new place, but with locals, right? Yeah, if you're with locals. Yeah, you're with locals anyway, excuse me.
And, no, the local crowd, they're not aggressive. They're not hostile. They're just, you know, they're just expressing themselves. It's festive. I'm not saying they're hostile, but I can only say from my own personal experience that, you know, I grew up in the States. So I grew up in New Jersey. And I grew up around predominantly white and black. Where'd you grow up in New Jersey? Plainfield.
Is that North Jersey? Central. Central. Central North. Central North. Around there. Yeah, Central North Jersey. In relation to Trenton? Yeah. But Trenton's a little bit further. Okay. So growing up, I didn't have any Asian friends. I was the quote-unquote token Asian guy, right? Yeah.
So I was very used to it, but I almost felt a little bit out of place. And I never knew where that feeling came from until I moved out here to China. And coming and have living in China for so long where you're so... Now I'm so used to just seeing...
Asian faces everywhere and obviously being in China. Yeah that whenever now I go back like my last trip back I was visiting one of my oldest and dearest childhood friends my friend Adam right? Who's a white guy and he's like, you know, he's like a horse whisperer now He's like a like living that full-blown cowboy life. We grew up in New Jersey together, right? So he owns like eight horses in his backyard, you know, it's Arizona. Oh, right. Um,
So in Arizona, even Arizona doesn't even have that degree of stigma as like Texas would or Kentucky or Mississippi, Alabama, these states. But it's still down there, right? And so what I went, you know, we were in this small cowboy town. Yeah.
And I was probably the only Asian person in the state. At least that's how I felt. Because I was there for a few days and I didn't see a single Asian person. My father-in-law is from Arizona. So everyone there was mostly white. And from my perspective, because I'm not immersed in that culture, I'm just going to use, I don't know if this is offensive to them, but like cowboy. Cowboy boots, cowboy hat, riding horses. Ranch. Yeah, that ranch life.
And no, everyone was super friendly. Yeah. There was no sense of like violence or, but even knowing that, like logically I know that. Yeah.
But just being in that environment, I felt like a little bit like tense. Well, you know why? Because the eyes lingered a little longer than normal. Maybe. That's probably why. Because they don't see a lot of Asian folk. Exactly. You're the odd one out. Yeah. So there's always like, even though logically I know like, look, I'm safe. And I'm not hinting at any sort of racism per se. Yeah.
But there's still that degree of kind of like, I don't know if it's culture shock or what, but there's that degree of like tension. So the question is, do we identify this with
you know, being Asian or if any, you know, stranger walked into that, you know, like an Italian guy or like a whatever, a Russian guy and that the same thing would happen and are we making a bigger deal out of it than it needs to be made? Well, this is my view. Like Asians in America, especially, to certain degrees in the UK, I don't know, continental Europe, but, you know, my oldest son, my oldest son,
He's English. He's a student in the UK. Is he like half English?
No, no, no. My ex-wife is BBC. Okay. She's a British, more Chinese. Family's from Hong Kong. But, you know, genetically, he's Chinese. You know, southern, northern mix. That's interesting that you went from Asian to Caucasian. Because some people, I think, they go from, like, you know, like... I don't discriminate. Caucasian to Asian. Yeah, I don't think... No, but seriously, like... Why is it that such an observant of race? Well, just not to interrupt, but, like...
Because you start off and then you have Caucasian, but then maybe after you spend time, 10 years or whatever, you realize maybe you need someone that's closer to your roots. So then you find... I mean, that's the pattern, right? No, no, not really. It's a reverse. I think deep inside... Okay, so to this race thing, right? I never felt...
I was the old one out when I was in England. I was one of them. I felt more British than Chinese. Maybe you go to a small town, people are extra friendly because you look different. But I do believe there are assholes everywhere.
But then in the minority like you say in Arizona little small town, but people are not used to new things That's just sent as human nature But but you know that the nice enough that plights that you know that they want to know you they're genuinely, you know Interested in you that's good thing. I think you know and so so
Well, the area you were growing up in, or not growing up in, but what you were living in in the UK, what was the Asian population there? It was about 10,000 out of a million. So it was small. So it was very small. So you hardly ever saw any other Asian people. 1%. That's like nothing. We saw each other very often because...
Well, within your circle of friends that you would hang out with, were you usually the single Asian guy or were there other Asians? Mixed. Mixed. So it was very mixed. Very mixed. Very mixed. Okay. Yeah. So it was more diverse. And in a more diverse place, like if I were to go to Manhattan, I wouldn't feel anything about me being Asian. Like that, I wouldn't like feel it one bit. But when you're taken out of that environment and thrown into...
Somewhere like Cowboy Town, Arizona, where I was. Like all of a sudden, it becomes very obvious. And I'm not saying, I'm not hinting at any sort of racism. All I'm saying is that, and especially you have to take it into the context of the times. So I just went there. This was a few months ago. So now in the U.S., the hot button subject is China.
In the news and politically, everything. Right? So, you know, if you're an African American, if you're Mexican, you know, obviously in the past, I'm sure they are still do. They feel a certain level of that. But right now, the hot top, hot button topic is China. And there's this kind of like this, this,
Fear. Fear. Or this competition with China and Chinese. And in the media, they're always kind of portraying this like, oh, the Chinese are taking over. Fear the Chinese. I'll just tell people, period. Trade war with the Chinese, right? So now, all of a sudden... I'm Thai.
or Filipino you can buy some Thai you're looking dark these days and my friend Adam like out of the you know just because he doesn't he wasn't thinking of any of this
But when he would introduce me to everyone, he'd be like, oh, my friend from China. And in my heart, I didn't say anything. But in my heart, I'm like, dude, don't introduce me as a friend from China. Don't say China, dude. Like, I felt like that awkwardness almost, you know? You should tell people you're Taiwanese. That's like US ally. Come on. But...
No, but just say it's my old friend from Jersey, which it is. That would have been completely true. But when he said my friend from China, they're thinking like this guy who speaks broken English and like, you know, I'm just straight off the boat coming in. And I didn't, you know, I wasn't sure how people would take it because America is very divided right now. And there are people that are going to view China in very different ways. How I see it,
is number one, your childhood friend, Adam. He's really proud of you being in China. So when he introduced you to his friends, he's trying to show off my friend from China. Absolutely. Hey,
This guy's from China. Can you believe that? He was only coming from a well-meaning place, I know that. Absolutely. He came over on a boat. And I know the feeling. He likes fried rice. Not a sense of negativity. No, not a hint of sex. Dumpling boy over here, China. Which, great. You know, why not? Stereotypes, you know, they always have. It's all in your head, dog. Stereotypes are based on facts. The fuck? Okay, so...
So is your fear related to Middle Eastern guys, your default Muslim or default terrorist? But it's different though because then a lot of the Muslim countries are in North Africa.
Black guys, right? All over the world. Yeah, exactly. So that didn't, in that sense, it didn't affect African Americans, black guys, you know. That's very different. That's very different. So Asians in general, yes, this thing, you know, hostility towards China as a rival country, competitor, whatever, I'm not going to get too, because we still live in Shanghai, so I'm not going to get too political. But,
But my feel is in America, Asian Americans are kind of lumped in together as a whole group, right? You can be Korean, you can be Chinese, you can be Japanese. People just see you as Asian, really. So the national identity, it only plays the second fiddle. The first fiddle.
foremost is you just different race. I think part of my uncomfort was just maybe I just wasn't giving the locals and Americans there enough credit. So it was a lot of, like Eric, you were mentioning, a lot of it is kind of just in my own head where I'm thinking, oh, these people aren't going to be as open-minded. But maybe that's not the case. Can I interject for a second? Yeah.
Could it be maybe because you're projecting your own immediate biases that you may have? Yeah. Towards... Absolutely. So, for example, like...
We all learn this from media, from our environment. For example, you just brought up the whole Muslim, Middle Eastern, or terrorism and how that's all linked together. So if you meet somebody, they're from Syria, you're like, ooh. Or from Afghanistan, you're like, ooh. Yeah, you judge them by their color. Because immediately... Classic stereotyping profile. It's classic, right? And this is human nature. I actually knew somebody from Syria, and he ended up murdering his girlfriend. I was talking about steroids. Yeah. Well...
I'm not going to comment on that, but I'm just saying that, you know, based off of, like I said, media and your environment, it's human nature to immediately have certain stereotypes and biases that you're going to place on somebody, right? So because we have a human nature, you're projecting, because your EQ is pretty high, so you're projecting yourself onto the other person, thinking that's how they're going to judge you, right? So then you become uncomfortable and all that stuff. So I'm going to break this down, okay? Yeah. Cool.
So I think number one, like Justin being our friend, and we've had previous episodes, we know that Justin's like the guy that everyone likes. Absolutely. He's the confident, like, I mean, inside. Am I though? On the exterior. So we've had an episode on our strengths and weaknesses. So he feels like he's kind of, he may be awkward or whatever, but like he's like the guy that everyone wants to be there and he's like the confident, cool dude, right? Like that's the perception. That's the image. Yeah.
And so, but you know, like not everyone's like Johnny Carson, like not everyone who's exterior, like the man inside feels as secure, right? That's just our own personal sort of like our, our, our struggles and stuff like that. So he wants to be like, which is great. And so he goes there and so he probably like focuses a little bit more and that's probably why people like him so much is because he's, he's sensitive to others. Okay. Um,
having bucketing like Asian people or black people or whatever in a bucket, it's like fucking horoscopes. So are all fucking Pisces like, oh, romantic, insensitive? No, fuck no. There's some cold-blooded motherfucking Pisces. Tell Howie that. He believes in those fucking horoscopes. I'm not one of those. What? On the group chat the other day, you were like setting horoscopes. You're like, how true is this? How true is all of this? I thought it was funny. But we know...
like logically, right? That like of the billions of people that like were born in a certain month, it doesn't mean fucking shit. No, no, it doesn't mean anything. That's the same thing with Asians. It's like, you don't fucking know that you could have the biggest dick sociopath Asian guy or the biggest dick whatever race
You have to meet the person, talk to the person, hang out the person, and you find that maybe there's a guy of a different race that's more similar to you than the motherfucker that has the same DNA. Right? The world is getting more and more polarized, and you got white people who hate white people. You got Asian people who hate Asian people. It's all based on these crazy beliefs, and if you're left and right and all this stuff. This is a chance to break the stereotype. If you just assume the person in front of you has an open mind...
I mean, it's more about who you are and how you view the world than what they view of you. Right. And if you view like I know people like that, like I know like fucking, you know, Asian Chinese dudes have busted accents and they're way more popular than anyone, you know, in whatever town and, you know, in the south. So it's how you view the world. It's a mirror.
And so the people that, you know, have the most connections and are, you know, admired, it's not your race. It's how you act. Of course, there's a lot of shit going on, of course. It makes it a little bit harder because maybe people will judge you. If you go up with people with a fucking smile, they're going to view you as friendly. If you go all sinister, like, oh, shit, he's probably... Yeah, or you're like all quiet. Yeah, you're all like, oh, he thinks I fucking like dumplings and shit. They're going to be like, that motherfucker likes dumplings. Yeah.
And then you're going to reflect that image subconsciously even more. Because then you're going to be more like... I would roll up. I'd be like, yo, fools, I love fucking fried chicken. And they'd be like, damn, dude, me too. Yeah. I absolutely agree. You're so right. You're so right. I mean, even back... Because I had a sort of similar upbringing like you. I didn't have that many... I had no Chinese friends.
And, uh, but same thing, like, I would get weird comments when I was in, like, university and, like, after college where I'd be hanging out with a whole bunch of people, obviously non-Asian, and they would be like, "Yeah, that's crazy, man. You know, you're actually, like, really funny and, like, cool."
You know, I'm like, what does that mean? They're like, no, no, because, you know, I've hung out with other Asians. They're like a lot more like chill and like, you know, they hung out with like other Asians and just like more chill. It makes it easier. So if all the other Asians are not cool, then the bar is so much lower. Then you can be the cool Asian dude. The cool Asian British dude.
That's why this guy walked on water. Look, this motherfucker has a British accent and he has no stigma. So he walks into Kentucky. This motherfucker is like Kingsman. He rolls up in there and he's like fucking on water. Okay, so on the slightly more serious note, I absolutely agree with you, Eric. I think you're spot on. But he was beaten in Kentucky. Yeah.
No, I'm just kidding. He was hate-crimed upon. He was hate-crimed. That's why he came back to China. No, no, no, no. That's why he got into boxing. I love people in Kentucky, you know, that may hold different political views.
for myself, but I think most of them are really genuine good folks, good people. I had a great time in Kentucky every single time. I never had any problems. I think stereotypes are based on some truth, some facts. - Sure. - For sure, right? - Sure. - But how I view this is, of course, you think Asians are geeky or wonky or whatever, whatever you wanna think, I myself,
I'm an individual. Like you said, Eric, if you're open-minded enough and you see people as individuals, I don't care, you're black, you're white, you're green, you're orange, you know, orange. POTUS. That's a good one. Strong. You...
I see you as individuals. I may like you, I may not like you. If we can be friends, we're friends. It doesn't matter. I like you, I don't like you, it's not based on your race. No, no, no. It's based on who you are as an individual. Here's the thing, Moses. What Eric kind of alluded to before is when you talk to people individually, everyone seems pretty smart and pretty open-minded and pretty understanding. But...
As a group, and instinctually, people tend to judge things differently.
At first sight and by the like the classic saying judge a book by its cover don't judge a book by its cover Well, everyone just judges books by its cover. Yeah, we do too, right? It's almost impossible not to to some degree, right? So it's just that kind of initial thing and then if you have the but if you have the opportunity to kind of engage with this person one-on-one then you have a chance to kind of maybe dispel a lot of stereotypes and
and kind of reach some sort of understanding or realize that you guys have a lot more in common than you guys realize.
But before you get there and people are passing it by, there's a lot of judging. And that's one of the things that are wrong with the society we live in. There's just so much judgment out there. You're so spot on. And there's a book, and I'll have to plug it. I'm not getting paid, I promise. I love this book, and I'm going to read it for the rest of my life. And it's by a guy that I think I learned about him from you, actually, Howie. Nicholas Christakis. Yes.
You mentioned him. He's fucking brilliant. He was a Harvard and Yale professor. He's one of the top intellectuals in the world, but he's the funniest guy. He has an infectious laugh. He's a Greek. He comes from a Greek family. He's American. And he talks about the foundation genetically. Natural selection has produced us, people who are coded genetically to have this need to
to create groups and things like... To profile. Yep. Because it was a survival tool back in the day. But the premise of everything is that as he kind of zooms out, love for others, friendship, social networks, cooperation across different types of people, these are fundamental attributes. Now we have preferences for our own
like group. So this is called in-group bias. But the universal nature of being able to connect with people across cultures and being able to connect as human beings is fundamentally stronger
than our preference for hanging out with people like ourselves. These are obviously opposing and kind of, you know, forces that are competing with one another. But ultimately, look at the world today. I completely agree. Because, you know, like you said, Justin,
In-group bias was important when we still live in tribes. Because the strangers came in, you've got to wonder whether he's going to spear me or not. But as the society went on, we've become more emerged.
it used to be just tribes fighting each other, then the next village is fighting each other, then you got like state kingdoms, you got empires. - Now you got countries. - Yeah, countries. You can see the overall trend, right? We're still, I believe we're still apes, right? Just bear in mind,
hundreds of years ago, even decades ago, were still terrible to each other. So we haven't had that evolved yet. So your point of as individuals, we might have an intelligent conversation, but as a group, we're still apes, right? That's right.
And I've got to find out that book. You can send it. Yeah. Just get it sent to me, please. What you're saying is so spot on. Yeah. You know? And so, like, there's these opposing forces. And sure, like, there's lots of forces. But...
you get a lot more out of life if you view the world in a broader way. Absolutely. That's sort of like you get a lot more out of it. My life-enriching experience, I'm all about enriching my life experience, really, hence I'm doing all this MMA management. Well, I think that's why a lot of these fighters and even, let's say, Richie and the UFC guys in Shanghai are kind of drawn to you and they want to pull you in and introduce you to a lot of these upcoming fighters.
is because they see that it's not like you're just a manager, you're out for the money, and you're out for the credibility. You come from a background where you actually understand where they're coming from. You actually understand how hard it is to be a combat athlete and what it takes and the sacrifice. And you actually, in your heart, care for them.
Because you can relate. So you care a lot for me. I think that resonates a lot and people can see it. I can see it. People who know you, they can see it. And I think...
From your early days as an amateur and competing in Taekwondo and boxing and all that, it's all kind of come full circle for you, where now you've moved to Shanghai, you have a family, you have two kids, you know, you have a full-time job, but yet you still find this passion and time and energy to be involved in a pretty profound way with the mixed martial arts industry.
sport and fighters here in China and helping them along the way.
And again, I think it's inspirational for you to kind of come to Shanghai. And that's in a way that personally, I think that's what we're all looking for. I know that's what I'm looking for is to kind of still connect with a true passion of mine while being able to procure an income and to have kind of like that marriage and that harmony between family, your interest and passion and professional.
Right? So, cheers. Cheers, brother. Thanks for coming on the show. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me, guys. Conversation.
And thanks again Kev, we'll have you back on. Alright cheers. And good luck with everything. And your fighters, and good luck to all your fighters. Shout out to Mal, shout out to Paul, shout out to Richie. Anyone you want to shout out to? Ibu Gullah. Shout out to Ibu Gullah. He's got a fight coming up in September. Mal's got a fight coming up 23rd of August. Where?
In Henan. But it'll be televised here in China, right? It will be. Alright, check it out. Yeah, check it out. Please, please do. Alright guys, later.