#31. Charles Zeng: Shock The System
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Hey everybody, before we get into it, I just want to let you know that this is an old episode we recorded back in early March. So many of you might have already listened to this episode before, but the reason why we're posting this episode again is because it was taken down. I think due to the original title of the episode, which was Shock the System.

So for a long time now, this episode was not available on our channel here, but I really liked this one. So I felt it was a shame not to repost it, especially for many of our new subscribers so that they can have a chance to listen to it now. So here we are reposting this old episode with a new title. And so just keep in mind while you're listening that this is a conversation we recorded all the way back in March. And of course, a lot has happened since then. Hope you enjoy.

What's up, everyone? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. You can always reach us at thehonestdrink at gmail.com. And if you've been enjoying this podcast, go ahead, rate, comment, and subscribe. Now, our guest today was the very first guest we ever had on the show. He is a restaurateur and owner of the popular burger chain, Charlie's. Of course, given current events, we talk about the coronavirus and its impact.

And we share our perspectives being here in China, and especially now seeing how things are playing out in the rest of the world. This was a very lighthearted conversation, and we had a great time during this episode. So without further ado, please welcome Charles Zinn.

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Cheers! Cheers. Thanks for bringing this plantation, man. The bottle looks a little bit different than last time. No, it's a different one. Oh, is it? Charles always comes through. It's very nice. Yeah, so we haven't had plantation rum since the first episode we did with you. Yeah. You were our first guest. Yeah, crazy. Crazy. Welcome back, man. Thank you. The gears are much better now. Yeah. Yeah.

That's right, you haven't been back to the place even, right? That's right. No, I have not. We've had a dinner here probably in between. No? Not at all? No. Wow, been a while. Shit, man. So, shit's crazy, man. The US, it seems like America just like fucking got a wake-up call. Shit just got real there. You didn't go back during Chinese New Year, did you? No. I was supposed to go in February.

I booked for February 15th, but I canceled. So you were here the whole time, right? Yeah, yeah. You canceled because of the virus? Yeah, because it was so bad here. So I didn't want to risk getting on the plane and shit. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Like you didn't want to like bring it out there. Oh, no, it's not even that. I didn't want to contract it. Because people are flying from here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because like you don't want to be in the airport with lots of people. But that's what's funny, right? Like two months ago, like I think the States is going through what we went through two months ago. Yeah. Literally. Because you can see like what we went through here exactly play out right now, like live over there.

And it's funny because like before everyone was trying to like trying to stay away from Chinese people and people who came from China. Now everyone in China is like trying to stay away from foreigners coming in. You know what I mean? Oh yeah. Yeah. Because the situation is completely reversed now. It's bad. Europe is fucking a mess right now. Mess. What are the cases? Let me see. In China? Like today, let's say. How many new cases? 25. 25? Okay. And how many was outside of Hubei? I don't know about that. Yeah.

Not a lot, though. Okay, yeah. I think Shanghai has been clean for like... Shanghai had one. Today? Today, yeah. Someone from Milan came back. Yeah, it's all the new... Most of the new cases in China are from the... Are from, I think, Europeans coming back. But what happened was, I think, when they came back to Shanghai, they got quarantined immediately because they got caught at the airport. But I just wonder, do you infect people on the plane? Yeah.

It's very contagious. So like the whole plane gets quarantined too, right? Think about it. Right. Like those basketball players. Yeah. So, so, so the guy that was guarding Rudy Gobert, he got it from the Pistons. Oh, did he really? Yeah. Which, which, which player is that?

Something would. Christian would. Christian would get it? Got it? Oh, really? He tested positive? Yeah. Oh, shit. Incidentally, not to scare you guys, and there's no need to fear this, I was with a guy from Milan last night. Oh, what? But he's been in China for like months. He hasn't left China for months. Eric, I think you should leave right now. Yeah. Yo, why are you just telling us this now? So when we introduced it... First of all, you went to a social gathering. I ate this that day. And then you hung out with somebody from Milan. We're prejudiced right now. Like this podcast is not a social gathering. You obviously don't give a fuck, Eric. Yeah.

So when we introduced him to everyone, we're like, oh yeah, this is Enrico. He's from Milan. And everyone's like, what? I'm leaving. Yeah.

Well, it's sort of like the reverse racism that a lot of Asians are having in America and Europe. Oh, God. Yeah. That's so stupid. Yeah. When I came to your complex last week, and just in general, going to any complex here, and they'll question me. They'll be like, oh, you're not from other countries, right? I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I've been to Xu Jia Hui the whole time, dude. Did you go back, though?

No, I didn't. Oh, okay. I did. Oh, shit. I went back to America. But you quarantined. No. But you were there before it got real. Dude, seriously, my timing was ridiculous. So I left like around mid to end of January. We were starting to pick up around here in China. And when I arrived there, that's when things started going downhill. And I mean, I was fine and I didn't feel sick or anything like that. And then coming back,

It was right before America and Europe started like breaking out. Oh, when did you get back? And China was coming down on the March, February 25th. Charles is like calculating. I'm like, fuck. Don't worry. February 25th. Okay. My friend Chris called me yesterday and he's in California. You know, Chris, you guys met him at the wedding. So he's Korean American and he called me yesterday and we were talking and he was telling me like,

he's going into the grocery stores now, right? And there's like two hour lines. And he's getting like a lot of like real nasty looks from people because he's Asian. He told me this yesterday. He's from Cali. He's from Cali. That doesn't matter where you are. No, I feel like Cali people are more like, you know, open. Dude, even in New York, man.

You know how much shit's coming out of New York City? No, but are people racist against Chinese people in New York? I feel like people are okay. Not in general, but... I think people are just racist in general. And this is just an excuse. I think they're just scared. But that's when all that dark shit comes out is when people are panicking, people are scared, and they feel the most vulnerable. That's when all the stuff they've been suppressing kind of leaks out, right? Yeah. Yeah.

You asked a really good question before, Eric, I felt was a really good question. Oh, shit. My bad. Oh, shit, motherfucker. That was my bad. Yeah, that's worse than getting coronavirus, dude. You shouldn't do that. You should not. But what was the question? You said it before, Eric. It was a really good one. You were like, do you think this is just the media kind of like... We were sharing articles and YouTube videos about some media coverage on anti-Asian...

bigotry and like racism in the States. Yeah. Are they sort of like cherry picking examples out or is this part of maybe a broader sentiment?

Of anti-Asian or anti-Chinese in particular? Yeah. Because, like, you know, you see a couple of stories in the news, but you can always kind of pick out something. There's always something to kind of... Yeah. ...to point out. I think it is a little bit of cherry picking, but whenever mainstream media starts talking about, like...

towards Asians specifically, that's when I start listening and I start thinking it's for real because they never talk about that shit. They'll talk about a lot of racism or bigotry towards African-Americans, Hispanics. They'll talk about gender equality and bigotry towards homosexuals and things like that. But Asians are...

You know, it's not often you hear them talk about people kind of being racist towards Asians just because personally, I think there's a double standard there. But I think it could be in terms of like if we look at what's been happening in the recent years, I think the context of it all and the timing of it all of this coronavirus plays right into all the fear mongering around.

that a lot of media has been doing against China in general. So it's been framed to no fault of the American public, it's not their fault, but these past few years, everything's been framed in a very political view of the US versus China. And there's been a lot of fear mongering, there's been a lot of all that, as we know. So all of a sudden now this coronavirus out of China hits, and it's just like perfect timing to play into that sentiment.

And of course, like all things, it gets exaggerated and blown out proportion. And people start pointing, like people are afraid. Like you said, people are scared and they want to start pointing fingers. And all of a sudden, you know, China is that easy target because it's been built up in their minds as like the target for so many years. So I think in the broader context and timing of everything, it's more of like kind of this general sentiment against China.

Chinese in particular. But like in the West, people don't really differentiate between whether you're Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or Thai, they don't really give a shit, right? So it becomes a more broader anti-Asian sentiment. - Yeah, but did you hear how like China is trying to twist it? So saying that like coronavirus actually like came out of like America?

It just got blown up in China. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, you didn't see that? No, but there is no definitive proof that the origin is in China. The earliest we can trace it back, yes, is in China for sure. And it hit here first for sure, no doubt. But it is from like a bat gene though.

- But even for like H1N1, right? For many years, that came out in 2009 and out of California, I believe, in America. - Oh yeah, H1N1, yeah. - But then in 2017-- - Mexico. - Yeah, so that was like what, like eight years later, they found out that actually it was even earlier from Mexico. So these things need time. It's too early now to be like this is exactly what happened. They're still researching.

about this virus. So not too much is really known and proven yet. So I think it's a little early to be like, okay, it definitely came out of here, definitely came out of here. We know the earliest it's been traced back so far is China, but that doesn't mean it started or originated here. I mean, there's a lot of different conspiracy theories getting thrown around right now, and I think that's just a dangerous game to play.

You know what I mean? I mean, I fell into that. When they were saying that there's the biofacility, the virus facility in Wuhan. I was like, well, that makes sense, you know, that it came out in Wuhan. I think that's been put to bed though, right? That one. I mean, I just think the whole like pointing fingers thing isn't the issue. I mean, the virus doesn't really care, right? It's not about pointing fingers, but I think that's what we see playing out.

Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. I think now that this news is starting to spread in America, it's just I feel like the news outlets are using that as fuel. You know, just like you said, I feel like there is an agenda to kind of make it kind of America versus China, you know, and this is just going to add fuel to the fire. It's hard to differentiate. It's hard to distinguish.

Because when you read... Let's say you read the New York Times or you read CNN and it's just relentless against Trump. Like every single article for the last couple of years has been relentless, like absolutely unrelenting about like his vocabulary use, like his lying. I mean, it is really, really, really relentless, right? And then you see articles like during the coronavirus about...

you know, China and, and they can't do anything right. It could be that the government is, um, you know, really cracking down and, uh,

stomping on people's you know personal liberties and stuff like that so when they are effective in cracking down then they get beaten up for it and then but at the same time if they don't right at the same time if they don't stop it and it spreads to other countries then they get beaten up right and then now you see that the coverage is shifting out you know off of china into kind of what's happening in the u.s and sort of other countries so the question is

are we being too sensitive sometimes when you are that particular person? So when you are being sort of targeted in a way just for political gain, is that truly, is that racism, right? Is that, or is that just sort of like different sides, you know, in a particular issue kind of being polarized? Well, I think for the regular people, like in the political arena, I get you. There's an agenda at play there.

And that's the way it is and the way of the world and the way things have always been. But when we come out of that political arena and we're talking about like the regular people, like the population, right? I don't think they're thinking like that, right? I think they've been influenced by the media over years. But when they see an Asian person and they want to...

you know whatever they want to do or say to that asian person or the looks they give or the fingers they want to point i think that that has that is racism because you are defining someone by their race and what's the difference between that and seeing a trump supporter in a supermarket and giving them kind of a dirty look like what would be the difference there

Yeah. There's, there's, I don't think there's much difference.

let's say that it is a generally kind of a dirty look. I, you know, I might be inclined to give a dirty look to someone who held beliefs that I didn't believe in as well. You know? So it's interesting to see where you draw that line. Yeah. I mean, and this is nothing new. This is absolutely nothing new. Like this is the same thing that I think a lot of the middle Eastern people, Muslims went through right after nine 11, right. In the States, like they got attacked. There was a, there was a lot of like anti like Muslim kind of anti middle East sentiment in the States. Um,

A lot of people there, they were in the hot seat before that. So there's always been a racial hot seat in America, right? Historically, it's been black people and they've been sitting in that seat for hundreds of years. And then it was Hispanics and Latinos, and then it was Muslims, Middle Eastern, and now it's us. And now it's Asian people. - How long do you think it's gonna last? - I really feel it's official. I think Asians are in that racial hot seat. - I gotta say, we're racist too, man.

You mean Chinese people? Yeah, we're racist too. So it's fair. The general. I think the question we're asking is, well, the first question we're asking is, is this going to last for a while? And is it going to get worse? Right? And then second is, if we compare this to growing up, like it's a lot better in the U.S. than when I grew up. Like people made way more racial jokes when I was growing up than like recently. Right?

So, so there's really two things. But I wonder if in schools, is it still that way or not? I don't think so. Cause like, I mean, I have cousins, kids in schools and I don't think it's, it's just not as much like that anymore because you have more Asians in positions of, you know, politics, like running companies. It's, you know, it's kind of like Italians and Germans like a hundred years ago and they were not considered like true Americans.

And over time, no one would really question. But I mean, Italians, think about that. They were the victims of a lot of...

Well, Irish. Yeah, Irish races. You know, anyone who hasn't been here for a few generations. So I think things are better. So that's one thing we can talk about. But the other thing is like, is this part of a bigger thing? Like in one year, two years, are we going to look back to this episode and be like, oh, we had it really good. And it's like a lot worse in two or three years. Or is this just something that's going to blow over like anything else where things just get polarized because the media is trying to find something? I mean, I think it's the beginning.

In my opinion. I think it's like when... You're a very optimistic person, Howie. I am. Well, a few things. I think one is the world is very PC now. So I think it's... Like US at least, right? So I think the kids these days definitely had it better than us. I think. I think. Because I know like... Definitely better than you. I don't know about... Yeah, definitely better than me. Because I grew up in like black school, right? So...

No, no, no. What? What is that? No, because... But in my experience, the black people almost got along with Asians. No, no. So it's like this. So it's like white people are racist against black people and black people are racist against Chinese people. White people are rarely... They rarely show their racism to our Chinese people directly. It's rare. Only the... I'll say the not well-educated ones, right? Right.

Because they hide it pretty good. I mean, I'm not saying they're not racist. They're just more classy than that, right? But in New York, you definitely tell, like...

And like you get more racist as a Chinese person grow up in New York black people are more racist toward you like they openly express it. Yeah. Yeah. I know what you're talking about. Well, like in terms of like, like, was it like aggressive and like hateful? Or is it more like a joshing around with you where you can go back and forth? I mean kids it's joking around, but as adults, it's aggressive, man. Like black people pick on Asian people all the time, but black people never pick on a white guy. Right. Cause they know they'll go to jail.

That's funny because a lot of those recent clips we've been seeing in the States of Asians getting attacked there were black people. Yeah, no, because if a black guy attacked a white guy, the chance of him going to jail is almost like 100%.

but if you have a black guy fair game right yo like as a kid like i witnessed a lot you know like black people beat up chinese people it's fine like chinese people we don't we don't say anything right yeah that's why i almost thought there was a double standard with racism in terms of asians don't really like handle our cases community has never really been that vocal about it yeah we don't we're like whatever we're just gonna let it go right because i don't want to start shit we don't like stage protests the marches like we don't do that shit like we don't even go to the

cops now we start doing but before it was like because why would you go to the cops right like if i go to a cop you get arrested your parents might come and your brothers might come and like kill my family too so it's like wait so i'm curious now but when you when you're talking about you said growing up yeah did you have like bullies that were like trying to kill your family i definitely grew up rough

like i got chased down by a gun in like in high school tell us about that tell us about that oh no because i i used to be very ghetto like i used to get into fights like like group gang fights damn no i wasn't part of a gang but it was just like please let the audience know where where is this so no because i grew up in yeah queens but i grew up in jamaica queens oh shit so it was like right next to one oh yeah like i told you one of my friends had to like run home every day right like

No, you didn't tell us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Last time. Yeah, I did. Because we went to two different schools, right? So he was on track for college. And this is an Asian friend? Yeah, because he had to run home every day for high school. So he ran super fast. Because they just wanted to beat him up? Yeah, because you get beat up, man. By black people? But why? Why? You just get picked on. So wait, hold on. So the...

Was it only the Asians got beat up or were there other races? What about South Asians? What about like South Asians? We didn't have that many South Asians. Well, in my school, I can tell you my junior high, it was like Russell Sage, right? And we had, I told you like girls, we had like maybe three Asian girls, right? And guys, we had maybe like five, right?

It was that many Asians. - But do you think it was then, was it the function of being Asian or was it just a function of that there was only five of you so they're easy to gang up on you? - Easy to gang up. - Yeah, we were. - 'Cause like what if you went to a school that was like all Asian and there was like five like Caucasian kids? - No, no. - It'd probably be gonna happen. - No, it's not 'cause my friend-- - It's a numbers game. It's a numbers game. - My friend was in Long Island, right? So he grew up like pretty rich, right? We were good friends 'cause his dad and my dad are friends.

But, so he went to like a Long Island, like very preppy school and like white kids are like pussies, yeah. All right, like compared to like, no, because my school is like all black and Puerto Ricans.

almost no whites and just five Asian brothers. - But maybe it was just a rough school in general, right? - But my school was already not that rough. It was actually considered okay. The one my friend went to was very rough. - What percentage of your school of the whole student population graduated and then went to college?

I don't know. It was junior high. Yeah. How would you know that? I would not know. How would he have a statistic? So junior high was rough, but high school was better? High school, because I tested out. I went to Bronx Highs. I went to the second best. There you go. Yeah. But that's because I tested out. Yeah. But if I didn't test out, like... You better fucking test out. Your parents put you in that school on purpose. You might be dead right now. Yeah. No, but we had art school. We had shootings, right? We had drive-bys. In middle school? Yeah, man. What?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like if you search it up, Russell Sage, like, like, like Russians used to get in shit with like the blacks. Middle school. We're talking middle school right now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There was like a machine gun shooting down my school. Middle school. Yeah. Yeah. Russell Sage, man. Very like, I will not say I was that rough. I was like lucky. I didn't go to like the Jamaican, Jamaican school. I think those are even worse. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I think you just went to a rough school. Like, cause I was poor. Right. So like, I grew up being like poor neighbor. Right. Yeah. But there's rough schools all over. Right. Like all over this, the country, there were, there were a lot of rough schools. So like a lot of people were going through that. Right.

right yeah I'm just saying so the Asian being bullied that story has been told yeah so we're saying how white people are not directly racist to us but black people are more they show it more I think they show it because you know they don't go upwards right they don't like

Like I said, you don't beat up a white dude, right? You don't beat up a Asian dude. Well, because they've been the victims of racism for so long themselves, they feel like they have like a maybe get out of jail free card in terms of... It's hard to... I think you're generalizing. Honestly, I think you're generalizing. Of course, we're always generalizing. We're always generalizing. I can only go from my experience. I can only go from my experience. This is generalizing. Yeah. Like if you went to like a super duper rough school where all of the Caucasians there were doing drive-bys...

and there were five Asians in there that were not sort of like gangster, then yeah, I mean the same thing would happen. So I think we're generalizing a little bit. - Well, I mean, if we're gonna share stories, I mean, I'll share my story. 'Cause in my school it was like, there was a lot of Asians, but mostly there were Filipinos. Like no like Chinese or Japanese or Korean, maybe like four of us, but there's a bunch of Filipinos. And they're all like trying to pass off as like Hispanic.

And then you have like, you know, a decent amount of black people and, you know, majority white. And I would say that like, I mean, personally, I had bullies in middle school and they were all, they were called the hit squad. And they were like, you know, group of blacks and Hispanics.

So it was like a known group of bullies called the hit squad. Like they had a name. Yeah. Well, back then it was like what early nineties, like that they call themselves that or did other people? No, no, no, no. Kids. We're all kids. I don't know. It was all kids, you know, and everyone's just a

kid you know there's no drive-bys no no but there's a lot of fighting but there was a hit squad okay and i remember being like you know followed home and like getting jumped and having my stolen why do you think that is like you think why were they targeting you just because they felt like you were weaker or what i mean it would always be like targeting me and then chinese jokes you know at the same time and that was before i was i was like a lot more

You know what I mean? And I got a little more aggressive. How old were you during this time? About? Like 11. Okay. 12. Yeah. And so, like, yeah, I would be like...

you know, get picked on and stuff like that. Bullies, you know? And I'll never forget it. Like even in classrooms, like before the teacher walks in, some guy would just come up to me and I'll never forget his name. His name is Che Mitchell. And he'll just grab me and be like, yo, Howie, give me five bucks. I'm like, I'm not giving you shit. Bam! Like punch in the face, you know? And I'm like, Jesus Christ, like get the fuck out of here.

You know, shit like that. Oh. Yeah. So you were really bullied, huh? No, just in middle school. In high school, I was fine. But it was just middle school. I don't know why. What percentage of people do you think have gotten bullied? Is this like kind of a rare instance? Or do you think most people have been bullied? I would say like majority, more than 50%, man. Because...

Half the people are bullying. Half the people are getting bullied. Yeah. Yeah. And the bullies are probably... If anything, it's 2080. The 2080 rule, yeah? 20% of the people are bullying. 80% of people are getting bullied. But I didn't get bullied by anybody else. It was just that group. But would they always say something like make a Chinese joke? All the time. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And also, my name was Si Kong, right? Si Chong, right? But...

But white people pronounce it C-Kong. Even teachers pronounce it C-Kong. But like, and back then it would be like King Kong, right? Any kind of Kong. There was like a lot of fucking Kongs. Yeah. I was Howard the Duck. That's not very Asian, but it was Howie Lambert. So yeah, I mean, all right. Anyway, I think we went off topic, but we went from like,

So is the world a better place in terms of racism? I think it is. Oh, for sure. It is better than we were kids. I think I'm not kids anymore. So I don't know. Like maybe Russell Sage is still rough. I don't know, but I think it's better. But at the same time, um,

Actually, it's funny. I got mugged there a few years ago. What? A few years ago? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you went back and you got mugged? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell us the story. Just real quick. Real quick. Kids mugged you. A gang of kids mugged you. I would not say they're kids. They're like college kids probably. Okay, real quick. What's the story? Quick. All right. So it was just like I went to play some pickle basketball, right? And this was how many years ago about?

It was many, five, six years ago now. Okay, so you're a full grown adult. Yeah, full grown adult. So like for old school sake, a bunch of my junior high friends decided to play a game at

my junior high, right? Like, so I went there. And it's actually, so, so I went there, like, I was at the handball courts. I was getting to the basketball court because it's like, so, so it's like the handball court next to the basketball court, but, but it's a big courtyard, right? Like, because it's a courtyard with basketball hoops at the end. So I'm like at the handball courts, I would say like 50 to like 70 to 80 meters away, like from where I want to go. Then like one kid just came standing in front of me, right? Like,

Then like a couple of guys like surrounded me, right? Then it's... What'd they say? No, it's like, give me your money. Oh, shit. But then I don't know if they had a real gun or not. It was like the whole like...

hand or like under the shirt under the shirt thing right but like I didn't want to like why chance it yeah why chance it why chance it right so I just like but the good thing is like because I grew up there I know like they're cool right so we can negotiate right usually I'm like don't take all my money right like take like like like

So I was just like, no, because as kids, I would negotiate too, right? I'm like, yo, I need some money too, man. Like, right. Because it was good. I was like dressed like playing basketball, right? So I look young enough. I think like I can still play off of maybe like a college kid. I don't know, right? So I'm like, yo, I need some money too, man. Like leave me some. I think I like gave them like a hundred bucks.

If you walk into any rough part of town of any country and you clearly look like you're not from that part of town, you're going to get mugged. So, I mean, I'm not going to. That's like non-racial. I think that's any race. I'm not going to. You're just sharing a story. That's not a racial thing. So that one, I don't know. But I think, so no, because I'm just saying it might be rough. I don't know. But anyway, so off the point is, I think China racism, I think is going to grow a little bit more.

from this point on what do you mean by china racism just because anti-china yeah yeah anti-china sentiment just because you guys remember like japan when japan was like super strong right and like you americans hated japanese people man just because

I think it was back in the 80s when Japan was almost like a superpower. Toyota was like... I thought you were talking about World War II. No, I'm not talking about World War II. I'm talking about the industrial age. The economical, right? The economical, where Toyota factories were forcing US factories to close down.

Yep. Because a lot of US car makers... They thought like Japanese were taking away their jobs. Yeah. And there was like a very heavy anti-Japanese sentiment in the 80s. Right. And I think it's kind of like what's happening now. Right. It's Chinese people are getting stronger. China's threatening America. Yeah. Yeah. And I think people who are holding like, especially the industrial jobs or the more like low level jobs, the building jobs.

they're getting threatened. They feel threatened by us. They think we're stealing their jobs. Well, I think that's one of the reasons why Trump has so much support behind him is because of that kind of sentiment. That's part of it. That's part of a much larger thing. Obviously, that's one small thing in it.

But I think that's one of the reasons, and I think you're absolutely right. I mean, I've harped on this for a long time that we are in the midst of a legitimate Cold War between the United States and China. So everything, like once something gets framed politically in that context, and there is that kind of dynamic between, let's say, two superpowers,

that's gonna have a trickle down effect to a lot of people and their mentality, right? Because they don't know any better. So they're gonna listen to the media and listen to all the fear mongering and China's taking away our jobs, China's here to take over, anti-communism, all this.

all this stuff. And so naturally there's gonna be a sentiment. And on the other side, China is coming up and the young people in China are becoming much, much more nationalistic in terms of national pride. So the reverse effect they're gonna have on them in terms of like, they're gonna be very proud to be Chinese, very proud of China. And any kind of attack on China

on China, they're going to be very defensive about. So that's obviously, that's clearly going to lead to some sort of conflict. Now where that conflict goes, who knows?

But there is that tension and there is going to be that conflict. We just don't know the degree and magnitude of that conflict. Yeah. But we see signs of it with the trade wars and everything. This kind of goes back to maybe like the kids these days, right? I think maybe they still get bullied, but I think maybe Chinese kids stand up for themselves more. More than us, more than our generation. I would think so. Just because back then we were like kind of weak, right? Like there were less of us and then like...

Our country wasn't like... It's like survival instinct, maybe. But we also didn't... I feel like back then, I can only speak for myself and from what I hear of the stories you guys have shared.

there was less confidence. Like as an Asian kid growing up, there was a lot less self-confidence back then as opposed to now. Obviously this is general, I don't know. But I would feel like an Asian kid growing up in the United States now walks around with a lot more confidence and swagger in him or herself than we did back then. - 'Cause I think we were, back then, most Chinese people were still poor. I mean, my family was poor. I know a lot of Chinese in New York

we're still poorer than the kids now, right? Like a lot of Chinese kids are super rich now. Like, you know, like then with that, it builds confidence too, right? Like versus like if you're from like a poor family, right? Like then it's like, yeah, you're not super confident. But it's also like we didn't grow up with like very PC culture. But it's also media though, right? Like who do we have growing up? Bruce Lee, that's it. Yeah.

Yeah, there was no Asian leads in any films in Hollywood whatsoever. We had Bruce Lee, that's it. Now there's only starting to be some, and they're not even like really lead leads. Do you know how many times I've heard literally in the gym locker room, some kid will come up to me and be like, come on, Howie, show me your Kung Fu. Wait, wait, when was this? Like back in high school? Middle school, high school, sure. Yeah, like literally that.

I mean it didn't help that I started taking martial arts and stuff like that. Maybe they just genuinely wanted to know. You know what I mean? You were like you fucking crazy. Okay let me show it to you. I'm a loving stereotype. You're walking around with like nunchucks in your pocket. Okay let me do it for you. Let me do it for you. You have like ninja stars in your backpack. It's hilarious.

Yeah. But I did get really into this whole like when I was in my early to mid 20s back in New York, I got really into doing research about the difference between being an Asian male and Asian female growing up.

in America as an, let's say an American boy. Now or back in the, in the two thousands, like the mid two thousands, I was really into this. And like basically, um, the general consensus at that time. Now it's, I mean, it's been widely talked about, but you know, Asian women were basically, you know, they were just like sexual. No, we don't know how now it's getting like dirty or not. You're not saying that. I feel, I'm trying to think of it. Um,

They're like the stereotypes. Like the geisha girls. Like me love you long time. Yeah. And like they have like, you know, they just listen to and they're just there for sex. Like they're very submissive. More submissive. Very submissive and stuff like that. But like and then the Asian male, they're nerds. You know, they have no, you know, they don't have confidence. They got small dicks. They're small dicks. They hang out with their own kind.

You know, that kind of stuff. And then, so it's like, you know, there, I remember watching a long time ago, this video that really affected me. It was like, I forgot who did it, but just walking around, like interviewing a whole bunch of people and basically asking them, like, do you find, you know, Asian women attractive? Do you find Asian men attractive? And asking the opposite sex.

And in general, every single person was like about the Asian females, like, oh, yeah, of course. You know, all that stuff. But the Asian male, it's always like, I never really thought about it. Or like, no. I think even now Asian male is still, I mean, we're getting better. But I still, I would not say we're in high demand. No. No. Especially not now with this fucking coronavirus. But I feel like the Koreans are doing a good job.

with their whole like music and entertainment industry they are doing a great job they're doing a really good job out of all the asian groups the koreans are progressing but more so in asia but like even in the west i feel like they look at the korean pop so no no like like they're they're they're popular yeah but like they're still kind of like girlish and you know like they're you know

That's that's that's the that's I think at least in terms of a lot of guys I've spoken to who live in America and when I would and I've talked to him about the subject of like the Korean pop stars and even Chinese idols and like Chinese pop stars They're like, yeah, like it's it's super popular but like they can't really wrap their minds around it They're like they're so like skinny and they like they're like purposely trying to like dress and like put makeup on like girls and like You know, that's that's the view right? That's the old school view. I

And there's like a very small percentage of people that are into that in the West. Yeah, I see that. I don't know, man. Like, where do you see all this going? Well, I mean, well, let's compare for a second with other ethnicities in terms of media exposure and how they're looked at. Like, you have, you know, African-American leads, black leads that have become sex symbolists.

Right? And it's, I mean, sure you have a lot of racism towards them, but you also have a lot of, you know, people that are very attracted to the black male. Yeah. You know, you also have the sexy Latino. Yeah. You don't have the sexy Asian. You don't have the sexy Asian. How long do you think? How many more years do you think? I feel like it's close. It's coming, right? It's coming. Are we talking about a sexy Asian guy or a sexy Asian guy? A guy, a guy. Because the sexy Asian female, that's already a thing, right? Yeah.

That's already a thing. That's a big thing. They've been sexualized throughout history. But we're talking about the Asian male. There's never really been, in Hollywood, a lead romantic lead, a romantic lead for an Asian male. Oh, that's true. You can name nonstop of different races, but what about the Asian? I really don't know. Even when Jackie Chan was a lead in a lot of Hollywood films, they purposely never had him kiss...

like the female lead or like but Jackie Chan's not sexy let's be honest yeah but he's not sexy either yeah I would not even want to watch Jackie Chan or even Jet Li you know you don't see any sexual thing Jet Li was too early and like Jet Li was Jackie Chan was even earlier no no but Jackie Chan lasted longer I think like you know the last of Jackie Chan's movie was much but all of them are kung fu yeah exactly yeah yeah

I don't know. But now you got some good actors coming out. That one, though. We do have one. The Korean guy? No, no. The super rich Asians. Crazy rich Asians? The crazy rich Asians, right? No one's talking about that guy. Yeah. Awkwafina is big. Yeah, yeah. But again, a female. But no, that guy, he just went to another movie, I think, with...

It's like Harry Golding. Oh, yeah. I think by far the biggest Hollywood Asian star in terms of like American Hollywood Asian star, it would probably be John Cho, right? Yeah. He's probably in terms of male. Well, I don't know. Like he was supposed to be, he was supposed to lead something, but then I never saw that. Like, was he supposed to be a Marvel hero or something? What happened to John Cho? I don't know. But Awkwafina is huge now. Awkwafina is huge.

I just listened to My Vag yesterday. You guys heard the song My Vag? - No. - My Vag is better than your vag. - What is that? - It's Ekovina's song.

It's her song? Yeah, yeah. My Vag. So was she a musician before she was an actor? No, no. I think she's just a comedian. She's a comedian and a rapper. Yeah, yeah. So the whole song is about how my vag is super awesome and your vag sucks. But you know what's funny? It's like whenever I talk to local Chinese about Awkwafina, they all think that... They're like, what the fuck? Why is she famous? She's so ugly. Yeah. But then you talk to Americans, they're like, oh, she's so beautiful. Okay, I definitely don't think she's beautiful. Like, I'll say she's...

I'll give it to her. I think she's a hard worker. She deserves what she has. She has a unique thing about her. And obviously her voice sounds very unique. She's got a good voice. But I would not say she's beautiful. Physically. She talks really ghetto too, right? That's part of the charm about her, right? I don't know. But I just think it's funny because... Is it unexpected?

Is any of this unexpected? Would you expect a minority of population in China to all of a sudden have leading roles in Chinese films? It's just, it's our circumstance, right? It's the fact that our parents were, you know, brave enough to go to the U.S. and join that small amount of people in the U.S. Like, is it unexpected that...

you know, the majority of people in the U S fit a certain demographic profile and therefore the films and the TV are, you know, cast these people also just based on the number of students and actors and actors. Is it surprising to us? Eric, I'm so glad you said this. Honestly, I'm so glad that you said this because I felt like that was like, this is the natural evolution of this conversation because you have all these politically, politically right, progressive people talking and bringing this agenda up of, of,

even like Asian rights and women's rights and all that stuff. But then I've also come from the other side, even as an Asian and being like, well, yeah. I mean, if you go by percentage, I mean, Asians make up what, like 5.6% of the US population. Why should we be equal to everything? Well, I don't, it's not equal. It's, it's like, why, why should the, the representation be disproportionate? And we are disproportionately represented in universities and,

We are disproportionately represented in different types of professions. Unfortunately, in Hollywood, we're not as well represented. That may also be because of the number of people in our generation that were willing to pursue that line and also the amount of support that our parents gave us as well. To go into the arts. I mean, I think we're trying to draw the line between true racism, which clearly...

clearly exists and when you feel it, it's a very, very, very disabling feeling versus a victim mentality, right? We're always trying to draw that line and it's really, I think victim mentality is not something unique to Asian people. Like you could be a wealthy white person and have victim mentality, right? And so it's just like, where do you draw that line? How do you get beyond the victim mentality?

But what are some examples where we do need the support of a broader group to help us advocate for our rights? Well, first of all, I feel like I'm actually okay with being racist against. I mean, it's like... Why is that?

Yo, everybody's racist, man. I'm racist towards people too, right? Like, so it's okay. It's okay. You're racist towards me. So you're just like, that's just the way the world is. I think, yeah, I think deep down we're all racist and it's cool. Like as long as you're not like, what is racism? I mean, deep down, what is racism? How would you define racism?

I think if you look at a certain race and you have prejudices against them, that's racism, right? In that definition, I think everyone is racist. Until I know you. Where it becomes a problem is when people start acting on it in a hateful way, right? In a violent way or a hateful way or some way that suppresses or hurts that population of people. But I think in the purest definition or the most simplistic definition of like,

we all have some degree of prejudice when we look at or stereotype when we look at a certain group of people. I think every single person living on this earth has that to some degree or another, right? Yeah, you just make generalizations. So like what Eric was saying is like, where do you draw that line? Because it's like kind of pointless to talk about that because everyone has like their built-in stereotypes and built-in like prejudices against like certain things. Like we all kind of judge a book by its cover. We're just...

Do you allow yourself to act upon it? But how far does it go? How far do you let it go? That's the thing. Well, you shouldn't let yourself act on it. Where is that line? Because everyone has it to some degree or another, right? Well, that's truth. I mean, I feel like it's human nature. Yeah. Precisely. We talked on one of our earlier shows about how people form groups. And we talked about a guy named Nicholas Christakis. I think, Howie, you had...

mentioned his book blueprint a while back and, and very, very profound, right? I mean, he says that I'm just looking at some of my notes here that the way humans have evolved has given us the capacity to join groups and,

And to do that in special ways. For instance, we will surrender our own individuality so that we can feel aligned with a collective or a group of people. And then we do things that would seem against our own personal interest or that would shock us, right? So people in crowds...

You see this mania sometimes, right? You saw it in Charlottesville. You see it with coronavirus people and crowds often act in really, really thoughtless ways, like just shouting profanities, like, you know, epithets, like destroying stuff. And they call this process in psychology, they call it de-individualization.

sorry, de-individuation, people lose their own self-awareness and sense of individuality and they identify more strongly with the groups, right? Is that just a fancy way of saying mob mentality? Yeah.

Yeah. Mob mentality, but also the element of forgetting your own individual sort of agency and choices. Like thinking for yourself. Yeah, thinking for yourself. Exactly. And, you know, he also says that in his own research group, one of the kind of the questions that he asked that may have

Sort of a demoralizing answer is that will the affinity that people show for their own group, whether it's like nationality, ethnicity, religion, social connections, does it always have to be coupled with the rejection of other groups? In other words, he asked, can you love your own group without hating everyone else?

It's really fascinating. Yeah. It's really fascinating. So I think for us, it's about acknowledging these things and being embracing and not being like, I mean, not kind of demonstrating those behaviors, right? Because like when you're wary, when you look at every glance as if it could be against you, you naturally perpetuate this sort of divide between different groups. And I think, you know, some people just kind of rise above it all.

And certainly there are going to be instances where you're going to be a victim. But I don't think it should make you have the victim mentality like 24-7. Which I think to add on to that, if you are a subject of that kind of victimization, for example, it doesn't mean that everyone is like that, right? So you can't allow yourself to generalize a whole population or a whole race. Of course. But that's the pit we all fall in, right? Like is that...

Hate breeds hate. So once you feel, whether it's true or not, whether it's real or not, once you feel like you've been hated upon, it's emotionally very tempting to start hating that. Start hating the group that hates you. So it all spirals out of control. And everyone has this sense of generalizing.

Everyone does. Like as individuals, I don't want to say this, like as individuals, we're all really smart people. We've all been there. Like you can sit down with a person one-on-one and have a really intelligent talk. But like you say, once you're taking into, once you look at it from a macro perspective, these thoughts and these ideas, these all spin out of control. They all spin out of control. Yeah, we've all been there. We just sometimes don't admit it. I'm just glad that like I'm not building railroads right now, honestly. I'm just really happy. Things have improved. Yeah.

Well, that's a whole nother story that doesn't get spoken enough in history as well and all that shit. But like, don't you find it interesting that like... We're making other people build railroads now, though.

The one belt, one road initiative. It's true. Yeah, but we're still building our own railroads. No, we're paying other people. No, we're paying in that, but once we get to other countries, in our own country, we're still building our own railroads. We're not importing people to build railroads for us. That's true. We're not importing people. There's a big difference. We're just going to their country to make them build railroads. But hold on. Let's use a metaphor. But we are making other people...

And when I say we, I mean China. We're making every other country pay for our products. There you go. That comes with the strength. Oh, yeah. Well, I was going to say, don't you think it's interesting in the States, people...

are only starting to take this seriously. Like, let's say in America, people only started to take this whole thing seriously once celebrities started getting it. - Oh yeah, that was a joke I made as well. It's like, now that Tom Hanks got it, it's becoming a real deal. - Like all of a sudden it becomes a real deal. Meanwhile, for months, the World Health Organization has been screaming from the rooftop, you know what I mean?

And then once Tom Hanks get it or a couple of NBA players get it, all of a sudden it becomes very real over there. And then they start panicking. I think also it was the stocks, the stock market tanking. Yeah. Right? Because I think what Trump cares about is re-election. Right? For him. The biggest goal is re-election. Presidents get re-elected when the economy goes up.

And presidents do not get re-elected if the economy does not go up, right? So I think in the... So before the stock was tanking, Trump had almost like 100% re-election chance. I mean, you know, like the Democrats had like their people, but it was not like a real threat. So you don't think Biden has a chance against Trump? Before. Before. Before the coronavirus. But after the coronavirus...

Now, like... Bidden. Yes. Now, like, even, like, I think... Well, now medical for all is going to be... Medicare for all is going to be a huge, huge... Like, already was a huge topic. But now it's just going to be, like, really at, like... The spotlight's going to be on it. But also now, like, I think the coronavirus made Trump look pretty terrible. Right? Like, how he handled it. The coronavirus did not make Trump look terrible. Trump made look... Made himself look terrible. Yeah, but...

I know, but the other shit, I think he can get away with. A lot of shit he could get away with.

But how he handled Corona was like definitely... Yeah, and the reason is coronavirus knows... Like it's the opposite of racist. Like if you think about coronavirus, we've been talking about racism the whole show. The only thing that truly is not racist is coronavirus. Exactly. Like it's not racist. It's like I'm going to fucking infect all you motherfuckers. I don't care. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, but anyway, it's going to...

So I think, yeah, with the stock tanking, then you guys have to like, have to take it seriously. Like, yo, like 2000 point drop is like crazy, man. Like that definitely had a big part to do with it. But I like from the sense, the sense that I got, I feel like,

a lot of normal people who weren't necessarily fixated on the stock market or things like that, or politically active, it really struck as real for them is when the celebrities started getting it. - Well, 'cause the general population doesn't look at the stock market. The general population. - Yeah, but then once they hear Tom Hanks gets it, then once they hear Rudy Gobert gets it, then they're like, "Oh, shit."

But what does that say about society that it takes that? Because it hits home for them. Because they're the elite. So if the elite can get it, then anyone can get it. No, I don't think so. I think it's just like, for example, I mean, I would say not the majority. The majority of Americans probably don't follow the stock market in terms of every day looking at the paper, seeing what's going on every day.

the majority, I would say. Right. But I mean, that's true. But I think like with 10% people will know, people will know like, cause then all news outlets will be posting about it. I think the reason that the celebrity thing kind of hit home for people is because the overall infection rates are fairly low. So the chances that you actually know someone that's infected is fairly low. So it's not going to hit home celebrities. It's,

broadcast in the news. Like someone you know. So it is like someone you know. And so once someone that has name recognition, and that's like the whole effect of branding and marketing. So once Tom Hanks gets it, and you know how wealthy and protected he is, then people wonder, could I get it? If he's so wealthy and he has access and resources to everything. But he actually did not get in the US. He got in Australia. But no, people aren't going to split those hairs. Yeah. Huh.

But that's precisely right. It's like people feel like, oh, if they can get it, then anyone can get it. People are starting to freak out. But it was so interesting to see that clear correlated uptick of like panic right when the celebrities got it. Because like thousands of people and then, you know, obviously for months you see what happened globally and especially here in China. You had an entire country shut down.

an entire like think about that like think about an entire country shutting down especially country with the population of china but then again the consequences and then and then we're in china exactly my friend even my chinese friends in the states did not care that we were shutting down man to them it was just a joke no but if you at that time if you listen to the world health organization if you actually looked at what was happening globally especially in china

you could see like okay this is this is going to be a bigger issue this this is going to be a global thing right and everyone's like okay whatever and even people there are still people like chris again going back to my friend like his um his fiance like his her family she he was telling me like her family they you know they're from the midwest and he was talking to him the other day just the other day like after all like after the celebrities i got it

they still think this thing is a hoax. They still think like this thing is just like a thing to like make Trump look bad. That's what they think. Oh yeah, I've heard that on Facebook. They think like, oh, the media is just spitting this out of like, out of whack. It's not like a real, like there is a coronavirus, but it's not nearly as like serious as they're saying it is just to make Trump look bad. There is still a population of people that still are thinking that till this day. This is a political thing. Yeah. Yeah. Which is alarming.

Which is alarming. I mean, I don't know. Because coronavirus technically only kills elderly, right? No. The sick, the elderly, and the young. Well, I think the medium ages is more elderly. The majority. The young are actually more protected from this. If you're under the age of 50, it's a 0.2 to 0.4%. And then it starts multiplying after, you know. And under the age of 12, it's virtually zero. But also if you have...

other underlying respiratory conditions yeah so like obesity or like other respiratory systems so that's crazy you only kill the old and not it's the opposite of the spanish flu where the spanish flu killed people in their 50s like under 50 right what's what's what's but what's most like frustrating for me right now when i when i when i see what's happening in the states is the whole um sentiment towards masks like they're not wearing masks

Because they feel like they're against wearing masks because they feel like it's spreading panic. And there's been a lot of things like, okay, well, it doesn't really help unless you get the ones that are like really airtight and like really seal around your face. So the other day, I heard from a friend back in the States, like they wanted to wear a mask into work.

And they were like, what are you doing? Don't wear a mask. What the fuck are you doing? Don't wear a mask. You're going to freak everyone out. You're going to freak everyone out. If you want to wear a mask, go home. That's exactly what they said. So it's like this idea of like, look, if you think not wearing a mask for the general public because there is a shortage of masks, then I get that. I understand where you're coming from. And to a large degree, I even agree with that.

But if you think that not wearing a mask is the right thing to do in terms of not spreading fear or panic, I think that's completely wrong. The problem with the coronavirus is people are walking around not knowing they even have it and they're contagious. So the mask, the normal masks that are not airtight, not the N95s, but the normal ones, the surgeon's masks that most people are wearing are not airtight.

So those only really are helpful for people who are already sick. So if they sneeze or cough or whatever, there's a physical barrier right in front of their mouth that it goes on to. It does not help for if you're not sick and you don't want to get it from other people because it's not airtight, it can still get in. So the argument for a lot of people in the West is like, okay, so if it's not preventing me from getting the coronavirus, none of us should be wearing it. And only people who are wearing it are sick.

That mentality is terrible. Everyone should be wearing masks because the problem is you're walking around not knowing if you're sick. You don't know who's sick. So everyone should be wearing masks if there are enough masks to go around. Yeah, at least you can stop the spread, I guess, right? Yes.

But there's this huge sentiment in the States about anti-mask. People are freaking out if you wear a mask. They look at you weird. They're afraid of you if you wear a mask, which is the complete opposite mindset you should be having. Everyone should be wearing masks, whether you have it or not, just in case. That's the frustrating thing with me. Eventually, everyone will figure it out. It's just that they might have to get it before they figure it out, as in get coronavirus before they... Another thing I was hearing is,

The reason why a lot of people are not wearing masks is because China happened first, right? Coronavirus. So they took up all the masks. They took up all the fucking. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. It's true, man. So like all the daigos, right? Like the people who sell shit to China, right? They brought up all the masks. Like all the Chinese people in the US, they bought it. They sent it back to China. Like there's actually a shortage. No, it's true. There's a shortage of masks. And like if you go on Amazon, right?

masks right now are like selling for much much higher oh yeah then they're like they're like yeah did you know that when i first got to america before it got like really huge in like uh or like the first week of february end of january um i i actually went directly to like cvs walgreens dwayne reed

No masks. No masks. At that time already, no masks. And then I remember talking to one of the staff from CBS. I was like, you know, when are you going to get another shipment? Like, what's up? What's the situation with masks? Because like no one's wearing them, like walking around. Like, I want to buy some masks. He's like, no, like the minute it hits a shelf,

They're gone. And I'm like, who's buying them? Who's buying them? Chinese daiko, man. And he said it. He's like, Asian people. I'm like, okay, I get it. Yo, Chinese daiko is buying up everything, man. So, sorry. But you have to think, like, so Chinese people were willing. And this is Florida, by the way. Not even in India. But do you think if Chinese people weren't buying them, do you think, you know, Western people would even be buying them? I think if there were plenty of masks.

Then the government, first of all, the government, because right now the government is actually coming out with statements telling people not to buy too many masks. Because, first of all, you have to understand like as a government, American government is not as strong as the Chinese government. Chinese government right now, all masks produced in China is considered government property. And they get to use it however they want, right? They can send it to the hospital first. Then the extras, they can give it to like the citizens. Right.

But U.S., the government does not have that power. So there's a lack of masks for medical practitioners right now. Yeah, the people on the front lines. Yeah, yeah. Even hospitals don't have enough masks right now, right? So, of course, they have to be like, all right, guys, don't buy up all the fucking masks. So at least the doctors can get some masks, right? No, I get that. I get that. I agree with that. But...

There seems to be a sentiment that isn't tied to that. It's just like, don't wear masks because they're afraid of masks. If there was a lot of masks, then the government would not be making statements like that at least, right? Because then at least I think citizens...

We'll be wearing more masks. But right now, like, even the government is not promoting it. Government, like, guys is like, don't fucking buy masks. Like, don't wear all the fucking masks. I can't imagine because even at, like I said, at that time when I was there before it got big, I couldn't find a mask. I can't imagine what it's like now. Like, you know, the majority of people being scared and not even being able to get certain things. What, here? No, in the States.

But that's what I've been saying. I don't think people in the States even care to buy masks. No, so they are. A lot of people are actually buying masks, but they're not as willing to pay the... The premiums? The premiums for masks. And actually, Amazon just came out. They actually delisted a lot of people who are selling premium masks and premium products. There's a lot of hoarders out there. So I'm curious, right? So clearly...

this pandemic is

you know, people's behaviors and then hence different industries. Right. And I'm reading a tweet by Nicholas Tlaib from a few days ago. And that's really interesting. Universities are proving to be redundant. They are the first economic victims of the coronavirus. Unlike with airlines and the hospitality industry, their damage will be permanent. I'm curious what everyone's thought is in terms of what the long-term implications, a lot of the conversations have been just around the short-term implications like masks and how to stop this pandemic.

Assuming that we get past this, like we have every other plague that has hit mankind, what do you guys think in terms of different industries and even companies like Amazon? What are the long-term prospects? I think the economic hit is going to far outweigh the direct hit of the virus itself.

And I think we're seeing that here in China because we're a little bit ahead in terms than other countries in terms of the progression of the virus because we were we were hit first over here. But I think the economic hit globally is going to that's going to hurt a lot more people than the virus itself.

And we're going to start feeling that second wave now. So what industries do you think will end up long-term sort of benefiting? Like, for instance, online education. And what industries do you think are going to be eradicated? Video games, entertainment.

entertainment medical industries the industries are gonna be I don't know about long term but definitely short to mid term are gonna be travel agencies destination industries you know the cruise the cruise industry is definitely gonna be yeah the cruise industry is fuck dude no one's gonna be taking a cruise no one that's so true right now cruises no one's gonna be taking a fucking cruise who's gonna go on a cruise you'll be out of your fucking mind to go on one

out of your fucking that's worse than being on an airplane yo and it's crazy how all the ones that got fucked are owned by carnival and princess and princess but it's carnival princess oh is it oh yeah yeah so it's all under the carnival company but there's actually other cruise companies but somehow like all the cruise guy got fucked is under carnival you know you know there's someone out there right now like buying up all the carnival stock right now be like it's gonna bounce back

Yeah, I think... I don't know. Because the first cruise in Japan was Carnival. The second cruise in SF is Carnival. I can't think of an industry that will get hit harder than the cruise line. That's a pretty good one. What are some of the ones that are going to benefit? Like long-term. Like long-term. For instance, look at all the universities, right? There are going to be people that are like, why the fuck am I paying...

you know, two, $300,000 for a fucking university education. That model is outdated.

That's interesting. I don't think so. That's interesting. Because you're going to university for the diploma. You're not actually going for the... But less and less so, right? How do you make money these days? What if you know how to make crazy AI programs and you can code like a motherfucker? Why do we need an accreditation and a certificate? Is that really important anymore? I think this episode, people are not able to go to class. They can't go to their graduations. People are going to start realizing that

what they're actually getting for two, four, however many years, it's just a piece of paper. Yeah. But that piece of paper... And overpaying for that. I feel like there's a small sect of people that are already thinking that way. Yeah. You know, and...

But if you look at a country like China, as a foreigner getting a visa, I have to show my diploma. I have to prove that I graduated from college to even get a visa. That piece of paper is pretty important. But maybe that's old school, right? There are more and more industries...

where the way you demonstrate your value is not that piece of paper or in addition to that piece of paper, there are other things that you need. And where's the world going with that? With all, I mean, like how to code, like many MBA programs, you can do all this stuff online.

- I 1,000% agree with you, but the whole system needs to change. It is an archaic system. But I think when you look at the landscape of actual companies and employers, you start seeing that trend because,

What I see when I look at that landscape is I see a lot more employers now weighing less on where you graduated from, what school, what diploma you have, but more on your actual skills. That's why they're coming up with more creative interview tests and things just to see where you are creatively. Personality tests. Yeah, personality tests or how you can problem solve. And those things are not measured by where you went to school necessarily. Maybe in the States, but not in China.

Yeah, but even in the States, man. But it's got to start somewhere. Even in the States, I think, you know, like, I think that group of people do exist, but they already existed, you know, the people who are, like, really good at coding. They already did not need that diploma, but... Well, there's a plenty... There's a big... Not a huge sample size, but there is a definite sample size of people that did not...

pursue higher education and have become successful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Well, the point is I think people, employers need a place to go to to source these people. So that is really the main source of these higher education kind of institutions is it brings every...

all the talented people together, like MIT, for example, right? It brings all the geniuses, engineers, and tech people into one place, one accredited institution where employers can be like, look, I need someone from there because they all congregate there.

Now, if MIT didn't exist, it would be somewhere else. It's just you need a platform. You need a place where you can draw all these people in. And then it makes it easier for employers to choose from. Because otherwise, it's a free-for-all. Otherwise, you don't know where to look. You don't know who to trust. You don't know. That's true. That's true. And what we're saying is that

Why is it MIT? Right? What value now do they offer? And when employers are looking for, you know, people with really strong people skills...

Right? Like you think about automation, like automation is like basically, you know, automating away, you know, a lot of jobs. So what distinguishes people, human beings, like it's your skill of being a human being, working in teams, making great decisions, and then these higher level skills. And so what if there was another platform, right?

that was much more scalable and could bring people all over the world together and then provide that. And that's starting to happen because you have people like, for instance, the guy Jim McKelvey from Square, he started this platform where people can learn how to code and all these kind of next generation skills and then they can place these people into organizations. I have a question going with what you're saying because you seem to be a big opponent of it.

First with you, Eric, and then you guys can answer. I mean, let's say you have a child right now who's, you know, within the next two years approaching college. Would you be pushing your child to...

to attend college. So these are really interesting because these are new ideas, right? And so you look at people like Peter Thiel, like all kinds, like the conversation is changing. And so I don't know what I would do. The conversation is changing. What I would do is start doing more research and trying to understand this a little bit better. We're just on the, it's like the tip of the iceberg. Things are starting to change. What I would do is look at in the next 20, 40, 50 years, where is the world going? And then I would,

try to learn more about what would set my kid up for success. Like I see incremental changes to that. And, but for longterm, I see it just becoming like what you're saying, let's say ideal. Ideally there was another option there and someone could bring up another platform or there was another solution that people can galvanize around and, and, and, and bring a lot of popularity to.

it would just become another so-called MIT. 'Cause the more people that wanted to go it, prices will go up just like any institution, right? The more legitimate it came, the higher standards they would have of accepting people into their institution or their platform or whatever.

So it would just become a different version of an MIT, of a Harvard because the demand would be there for it. The legitimacy would be there for it. And all things would just rise just like all these old school institutions we're talking about. That could be. That would be one direction. But what I'm saying is we're democratizing this type of knowledge. And so, yeah, back in the day, accessing a certain book

you had to be the elite and you had to be wealthy. Now you can get like every fucking book ever for $10. - Like blockchain education. - I think one thing you're underestimating is, first of all, I think you talked about how you want your kids to see what's happening 20 years, 40 years, 50 years, right?

That's not what I said. What I said was that I wanted to look at where the world would be 30 to 50 years out and then learn about what options my kid had. But that automatic, like go to Stanford, go to Harvard, I have to say that that automatic sort of like

you know, preference that my parents had, I wouldn't have it. I would look into more options. And would I want my kid to go to those schools? I might still end up making the same decision, but I think the decision process is a little bit different. But don't you think there'll always be like the creme de la creme of whatever? I would 100% still send my kids to those schools if my kid's smart enough. But it's not, I think one thing you're underestimating is how humans can, the synergy we can make when we're together. Like,

like as a group right so i think uh mit before there was a there was a building i think i forget the building number is like building number 15 or 22 i forget it was like the craziest building but uh like the building was supposed to build for like it was like built in a semester right because it was not supposed to last but it actually lasted i think 30 years on campus or something

and like radar was like built there. - Like why was this building built in the first place? - So this building, you can search it up. So it's MIT building. Like every number is actually, so there's no actually set numbers. Like if you go in, it's not like one, two, three, four, five, right? The room numbers are not in sequence. And the room number is actually like messed up. So if you wanna go to room number eight, it might not be between seven and nine. It'll be like,

It might be... It's like a code you have to figure out? No, it's not a code. But like, so what happened is like, so if you look at that, I really forget the building number in MIT, but it finally got torn down like a few years ago. But it existed for like, I think 30 or 40 years. And like all the best technology that we know today was all discovered there. But why is like, so people actually analyze it. Why is so much tech...

built, all the scientists, right? Both, the headphones, right? The CEO came out of that building too. So he discovered like-- - So that got to something like why did so many great pioneers come out? - Great pioneers came out and one reason was how the building was set up. It was just 'cause it was so messed up. Everywhere you went, you don't know where to go, so you have to ask people, like, hey, how did I get to this department?

this, this room number. And like, you have to interact with so many other people. So people started knowing a lot of more other people. So like smart people. So like, cause a lot of times, like, you know, very, you're, you're the best in what you do. Right. But,

just being the best in what you do is not enough to do something new. - I agree. - You need to combine with someone else. - So it became like a complex organism. - Yeah, yeah, so people were meeting people much more often just 'cause this building was so effed up, like you couldn't find shit. So you need to know people. Like every time you go in, you're like, oh fuck, I need to go there.

But that couldn't have been the main, like I'm sure like maybe that contributed, but that couldn't have been like the main cause of why. It's not, I think it's not about that. It's the bigger idea that it's, you know, the group is stronger than the one. Yeah, the group is stronger than the individual. I think, I think, so you asked me like if I want. How many people could go to that building?

Out of like everyone, how many people graduate from high school every year? A couple million, right? So how many people could go to that building? A very small person. Yeah, a very small person. So I think it's, I understand what your point is. I mean, like Steve Jobs did that with Pixar. I mean, it's not like a, you know, like a crazy notion. They designed all the restrooms in the Pixar building so that you would have to walk through all the other buildings. Like, I mean, like...

It's all about human connection, absolutely. That's not really the point. I mean, I agree with you. I'm not making that point. I'm making the point that the academic institutions, the way they're structured, even if you look at the structure of a university, is like archaic, right? They've existed for hundreds of years, thousands of years, but not thousands, but hundreds of years. Like the names of the different departments, the way you get tenure, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. That model's changing. And what's happening is that those MIT kids right now, they can't even fucking go to that building. You know why? Because they're not allowed to go to that building

So people are like, well, fuck, I'm paying like $50,000 a year. I'm getting my classes online. So the model is changing, you know, and so...

You might send your kids directly to a company. A lot of these top companies have universities built into those companies. Like Google has Google University. They all have different... And so a lot of the innovation is being driven at that entrepreneurial level. And maybe you just send your kid directly there in some kind of training program. Truth be told, that's basically cutting out the bullshit. Yeah.

- Totally. - Well, I'm surprised you're not a bigger fan of Andrew Yang after having said that. - I am a fan of Andrew Yang. - Oh, man. - Absolutely. - Because he talks about that a lot, not exactly what you're saying, but he talks about the ineffectiveness and inefficiencies of the current educational paradigm, right? That we're spending a lot more money on educational institutions, but none of that is having an effect on the actual education and quality of education.

of people. The quality of education has basically stayed the same for decades. But meanwhile, we've spent exponentially more money on the educational loans. So where's that money going towards? It's definitely not helping the students, right? And then you take that and you add that to all the student loan debt that's occurring in the country. It seems to be a very ineffective system and a very inefficient system.

The thing is, I think even if you were to shake up that whole paradigm, right? And I'm just, again, not to bring up this word because I know it's a sensitive word. Devil's advocate. Devil's advocate. I'm just playing devil's advocate. But even if you were to shake up that whole paradigm, which I personally think it needs to be shaken up, at the end of it all...

there would still be a creme de la creme of the crop that would rise to the top and demand more for it. Demand more, whether it's prices or standards or whatever, to get in, and then they would become the new MIT. They would become the new Harvard and Princeton. I see where you're going with this, and I don't disagree with that piece. Okay.

Okay. I think there's really two points we can make here. Number one is that look at something like the Avengers or look at something like what's on Netflix, right? So you have content that is...

you know the the highest level of content being produced right avengers like that's like technological marvel they spend hundreds of millions of dollars to put together something like that best film ever made exactly the best franchise right that's what howie thinks and i can just the end game every time the end game like what avengers anyways he thinks he thinks the daredevil with ben affleck is the best film that is ever made ever as a filmmaker that's what he thinks what do you think charles

I don't know. Maybe. I don't know. There's a lot of irony here. But, you know, the point I'm trying to make is that there's a lot of things that once you get a certain level of scale, then you can afford to not charge for it. So something like the internet, which is something that, you know, in the past...

You had to be the elite to even be able to get access to books. Now everyone has access to it. So I think one part of it is... It'll become more and more ubiquitous. Yeah, so there's democratization of certain things. So the fact that would there be elite institutions that would then come up again, who knows? But there are certain things that have just been democratized, right? The second piece is that, yeah, of course you have to strip things down. Elite institutions will be built up again. But...

we kind of have to tear things down. That's just the cycle of humanity. That's kind of how things work, you know? But Charles, like for you, okay, you shared with us

how you became an entrepreneur and how you've made an impact on society, how you've even funded your own team members from your profit on new ideas, right? Where did you learn how to do that? Was it from NYU where you went to school or was it from the school? Penn State. Sorry. What was that school called? Penn State. No, no. Russell Sage. Sorry. Russell Sage.

He learned how to run. Yeah. Russell Sage, right? Not fast enough. He learned how to dodge bullets. So did you learn from Russell Sage in Penn State or did you learn from, you know, the school of hard knocks? Okay. Okay. Hold on. But Eric, I think like, all right, quick, quick thing on your, all right. So I think knowledge has been free, is free now. Like, like with ever since Google, like,

Maybe not the beginning of Google Ask Jeeves Internet Yeah internet Like right now At least If you want If you want knowledge It's free right So I think you have to divide people To like two groups of people There's people who are like Just so so smart That they might not need A stamp of approval From like a school Or like

And they're just, I'm just so good at what I do. Like, whatever it is, right? I don't need to go to Harvard. I don't need to go to like Stanford. I'm like, fuck. Proof is in the pudding. Yeah, like I'm fucking so smart. Like, I don't need you to acknowledge me. I'll just do my shit. Like a goodwill hunting motherfucker. And you'll be like, oh shit, this guy is a fucking genius, right? But then there's the other group of people. I think that's the majority of people. Like, we might be pretty good, right? But we're not.

but we're not going to impress you right away with our knowledge, right? And we're like, you know, we might be multifunctional, but we're not like, I ain't going to program a shit that you'll be like, oh shit, this crap blew my mind, right? And for that group of people, I think we need some kind of, it does not have to be like a traditional school, but it does need to be some kind of stamp of approval where I can start. Like a ranking system?

Accreditation. That's what you're basically saying. You need some sort of universal accreditation. I need something to start talking to people rather than, hey, you know, I went to this...

this online school, right? It doesn't matter. But at least it gives you like a, it's like, all right, this guy's at least a smart guy. There's a standard. Yeah, I agree. I think, well, what's interesting is like back in the day, remember like the first online educate, like University of Phoenix? And when you see like that on someone's resume, like, oh, University of Phoenix, that's not that legit, right? Yeah.

But I think the point you made earlier, Justin, is like, where is the money actually going? So really the key is like, if I'm spending like $50,000, $70,000 a year, I want to know that that's not just going into a piece of paper and that MIT or Harvard has a right to do that stamp, that they're actually legitimately creating value and knowledge and wisdom that I can't get otherwise. Yeah.

Yo, but I don't know. What do you want to say? What do you want to say? I mean, it may not be the actual knowledge and wisdom, as you say, but it could be just that honor. You know what I mean? The name that some people use it for.

What do you mean some people? Everyone uses it before. Yeah, but it's like the same way, like, I'm wondering, like, this current young generation, like, when they send in their resume, does it say, like, I've watched 10 episodes of Masterclass? Like, you know, like the digital teaching thing?

I know masterclass. I'm not following you. I know masterclass. What if they write that as their education? Oh, as their education. I mean, look. I watch every masterclass. If you look for a job, right? I mean, generally after your first job, it's about... But that's after your first job. But how you get your first job, though. That whole paradigm is changing, too. That whole paradigm is changing. Special skills.

No, but back to where... I listened to the Honest Drink podcast. Like literally. Like literally, yeah. Like you wanted to go into politics or something. You're like, oh, I listened to Honest Drink podcast. I get my information from there. So what if it was more... I mean, you know, organizations now, I mean, like, look, the process is changing, right? Because when was the last time any of us tried to look for a new job, right? I mean, honestly, we haven't. But we do know people that have and it's changing. The process is actually changing. Yeah.

The first thing is they are going to top universities because I agree. That's where they can then it's, that's the recording recruiting name recognition. Yeah. Name recognition. And the, the, the university, the university itself has a selection process. So they're pigging back off of that. But once after that piece, right, we're saying that that piece might change. They actually do psychometric, all kinds of profiling. And it's very, very, very rigorous. Cause you know, we have, and, and it's gone through a lot of this process. Right. And, and,

It's all about like psychological testing, all kinds of different scenarios, giving you case studies. And even for that first job really out of business school, they're testing you. So what if the paradigm was a little bit different? It wasn't so much what school you went to, but it was, I'm going to give you a test that actually tests the skills that you need for the job. And you take that fucking test, right? And then you place out of it.

I mean, I think that is what is happening. And then where would you go to develop those skills? You could choose MIT or you could actually go to specific courses and classes designed to help you acquire those specific skills. But Eric, right now you make 100% logical sense. But if you're living in a capitalistic society, that's not going to work. Get some ice. Ice. You know what I'm saying? No. Okay. Yeah.

Just try to relate to what I'm saying with capitalism right now. And why do universities exist? Why aren't you answering? I'm waiting for you to make your point. I'm asking you right now to connect it right now. I don't know. No, I mean, I'm waiting for you to make your point. I don't really know what you're saying. It's like the education system, just like any other... Just like, for example, even like the medical system. It's a capitalistic entity, right? So basically...

Um, these universities, especially private universities, um, you know, they exist not only because they've built some sort of standard, like for example, like an Ivy league or whatever, but it's, it's a money making machine.

And that proves my point precisely that this area is ripe for disruption. No, no. Yes, exactly. I'm just saying like you make 100% sense. It's ripe for disruption. You make 100% sense, but that will never be allowed to happen. The next person, yeah, I mean Uber, you know, Google, Apple, Amazon, this is the same thing. That's the point. That's precisely the point I'm trying to make is that one of the big areas, if you remember my original question,

this coronavirus will it are there certain things that it will be serve as an accelerant for in terms of industries where they're taking them apart or accelerating them education is the next big one there's something big that's going to be done here something huge some paradigm shift paradigm shift that's it like I mean if you're the one that's doing that and people are already thinking in these terms man it's going to be crazy you think more than medical industry

Okay, so hold on. Before we go any further, so there's a study done for habits, right? So what happened in London, you guys know where like the metro system went on strike, right? So people like had to find new ways to go to work. I think this was in the 90s or early 2000s, I forget. But what happened was like so the metro actually people went on strike. So people had to find new ways to go to work, right? Like either through like

or running or I don't know what the fuck they were doing. But 5% of people never converted back because people are lazy people, right? Like we're lazy. So without something to shock the system, we're not going to find new ways to...

to do what we do. - Like we're creatures of habit. - Yeah, we're creatures of habit. - And it takes something really devastating to change that, right? - Or some sort of shock to the system, right? 'Cause we like to do what we do to get our result. And you know, it makes us happy. We're comfortable. - Even if it's not the most effective result, but it's a result that we're more familiar with, we're gonna stick with that, even though it's not the best way to do it. - It's just easy for us, right? But after the Metro system actually got back online,

5% of the population never went back to their old roots. Just because of the shock there, they were able to find better ways, right? Like better ways, more efficient ways to get to work. So I think a lot of people are predicting, I think the same thing is going to happen with this coronavirus, right? This pandemic, right? Like it's going to shock the system, right?

It's going to introduce new ways to do things. And 5%, you know how cooking became really big? Cooking at home became really big for during this, in China at least, for the coronavirus. And people are saying now, because 以前白领, white collars, they never cook at home.

But now, because of this, maybe 5% of people will start cooking at home more regularly because they discovered how easy it was. Because before, they always thought cooking was really tough. But now, 5% are probably not going to go back. And this 5% is going to be new business for, let's say, like...

right or all the online delivery groceries you hit the nail on the head and I love the like I mean like this episode is gonna like we should call it shock the system that's what it's all about because essentially that's what we're saying is that when we look forward

coronavirus is going to shock the system and then there's certain behaviors we're never going to go back to and it's the really ingenious clever people that sense a new problem in this that are gonna and like education is just one example and how you know i agree like i understand what you're saying how is that education is entrenched right it's an institution and there's a lot of uh political power in it and people will then lobby against it etc etc

But when we hit that tipping point, then things will change because in every industry there's an incumbent, right? And, you know, education is definitely something where there's a lot of entrenched interest, but something might happen. Absolutely. I mean, I think that is the title, Shock the System.

Because this whole thing has, I think, woken up a lot of people. And to a lot of different people, they're going to focus on different things. Some are going to focus on politics. Some are going to focus on Medicare. Some, like you, are going to focus on education. Some are going to focus on, like, you know, like human rights or, you know, like disease control. A whole bunch of things, right? And it really takes something like this every now and then to kind of wake people up to kind of see, like, okay,

Look, society is hanging on a thread here. We've always been hanging on the thread. And so what are you really gonna do about it right now? What are some changes or some paradigm shifts you're gonna campaign behind? And I think this is a good opportunity to kind of reset your mindset and to come at it from a fresh perspective is a kind of mild crisis like the coronavirus. - Yeah, people get too comfortable in their routine.

They get comfortable into what they know and they just accept things for what they are. And not just only accept, but they're still in denial. A lot of people are still in denial. But now that something like this is here, hopefully...

Yeah, we do have some adequate change. I think business landscape is definitely going to change because of coronavirus. Yeah, even like work. The effectiveness of working at home on a lot of different industries. Yeah, yeah. Teleconferencing is going to be huge now. Well, I don't mean to pry and you don't have to share if you don't want to, but how has your business, Charles, been affected by this? As a restaurant. I mean, it's super terrible, right? F&B was super terrible because...

Nobody come out anymore, right? So it's terrible. I think everybody had a shitty time. But you guys were open for the majority of the... No, we... Because I ordered from your place a couple of times even during the lockdown. So Xu Hui was open. But Jing An got fucked up. So like... You're talking about the different locations. Because of cases that came out, right? Yeah. So Jing An was like super fucked. So all right. So China is very different than I think...

I don't know. I would not say us, but at least this was something new that I learned during, during this coronavirus. Like,

Every block is almost managed differently in China, man. In Shanghai. Every block. Almost, almost. It's almost like a different bureau. Different jurisdiction. Yeah, yeah. So it's like this, right? China is super on speed. No other country can match China in terms of speed, right? Like speed of execution. We're like, okay, tomorrow we're going to lockdown, right?

And bam. Tomorrow's locked down. But no, no. But check this out. We only know it's locked down. But no one actually said how to lock it down. No, it's serious. It was a fucking serious problem. Yeah. Like, like, because China will be like, all right, tomorrow we're locking down. All right.

but no there was no details given it's like what does that mean yeah what does it mean so like every block like pretty much like every block was operating differently man because like it was like like also china has like this group of soldiers that no other country have like this the old lady group

The Ais, right? The volunteers. Aren't they volunteers? They're volunteers, but they're also called... What is that called? The Jiuwei. Jiuwei, yeah. And they crack down. Yeah, they crack down. Are you more scared of them than anybody else? Oh, yeah. Jiuwei is like... I would not say scared, but like... They don't mess around. So all of a sudden, they get the...

So they're a committee of old aunties. They get this power, right? And they're confused on how to use it too. So it's like, you know, so I'm serious. Like, so during the, like, cause, cause I have eight shops, right. In different areas and it was different rules in every fucking area. So it got like really confusing, you know, like this, this, this block, like, cause I even have three shops, I have five shops in Jing'an. All right.

So, but three is one box. I consider them to be one shop, let's say. So, how do you sweet talk those? They're like tyrants. No, but it's not even sweet talk. It's just because they're confused too, man. Like, they don't even know. How do you interact with them then? There's no interaction. Like, whatever they say is rule. Whatever they say is law, you know? That's crazy. But...

But then like, they were confused because they don't even know what to do. You know, like, cause they even told me, it's like, hey, like, cause it happened. It happened. Like, so one day, like my, my, my transfer store got shut down. I'm like, I'm like, fuck. Right. So I went to find these IEs. Right. And, and they're like, okay. So yesterday we just got pulled into a WeChat group.

And they tell us to shut you guys down. And, but then no, here's the check this out, check this out. Uh, the reason, oh yeah, I didn't explain it well. Why I went to talk to her. Cause they want to shut down my restaurant. I understand. Right. Like that's, I understand. But then they're like, okay, you have to fill out this form, which lets you reopen. Okay. Okay. So, so then they give me this one address where I fill out the form. So I went to this address, right? Uh,

And they were like, oh no, no, no. You have to go to that department for this, right? And we never processed this. I'm like, okay, so from this first destination, I went to the second destination. And the second destination, they were like, no, no, no, we never did this kind of shit. You have to go to this third place, which is still okay, you know? I mean, I want to survive. I want to make money. It's okay only if you're familiar with the China system where they push you from one department to the next. Yeah, but check this out. I went to third one, right?

you know whatever you know i i understand this happens in china and they're no no i never processed either then they gave me that but i know who does and and they gave me a address but it was the first guy uh yeah yeah like all the time yeah they looped it back to the first guy i'm like oh what the right like i just came from there so i'm like okay do that all the time so i went back to the eyes finally so that's why i had to go find the eyes i'm like all right i eat

He gave me this address and this is what happened. And the IE literally told me like, "Hey, yesterday I got pulled into a WeChat group

They just told me to shut this block down and this is where you go. I do not know any further, right? And this is all I can do for you. And so you just shut down. And there's no action. So like everybody was operating differently. It's so crazy. It's so crazy. So when the IE's tell you they told me to shut you guys down, who do you think they is? Who's they? Probably like the government, right? Like the Shanghai officials? No, but then like...

No, it's crazy. They started forming committees, right? So they start pulling like all different kind of committee into like one. They made a special coronavirus committee that composed of like all the legal, like the xiao fang ju, blah, blah, blah. Like everybody, right? Like all the different departments. They formed a specialized committee. And

But there was no uniform voice. There's no leadership. There is leadership. The leadership is to shut you guys down. But there was no process on how to do it. It's macro, not micro. Yeah, yeah. They thought of the first step, but they didn't think about how to get you guys back up and going. But it's not even that. But it's just so crazy how China has operated like...

No, I'm telling you, like, with speed definitely comes at cost, right? Yeah. And just, like, you know, so I have to say the quarantine speed was unprecedented. Amazing. Yeah, amazing, amazing. But, like, I definitely tell you, like, people were confused the fuck out. Like, it's just, like, every block. But that seems to be a given, though, right? Like you said, like, everything comes at a cost. So if you're going to shut everything down as fast as China did, which...

In the grand scheme of things, helps globally for everybody, right? Like, that China was able... Like, thank God. Like, this sounds really fucked up to say. It sounds really weird. But thank God this virus happened here. Started here. Because, like, no other country has the ability to shut down a country as fast as... But it's the same shit now. The same shit. It went out. So...

I mean, if we manage to contain it. But it could be a lot worse, maybe. I don't know. I mean, right now, it's the a lot worse part, I think. I don't know, man. Do you think so? It could be a lot, lot worse. I mean, if we contained it, then yeah, fucking China would be a hero in this. Yeah, but a lot worse could have been if it never got contained. It started spreading and there's no precedent that China established. Then it just would have been...

Maybe, maybe, maybe. The numbers would be a lot different than they are now today. And the death numbers, maybe. I don't know.

I mean, what China did start was the quarantine system, which other countries are adopting. I guess Italy is adopting. But no one's really admitting that. No one's really calling it the quarantine system. Even the United States, they look at... What's funny is you look at the media over there. And I've been watching ESPN lately. And ESPN, they're applauding the different sports leagues, whether it's the PGA or the NBA. Yeah.

for shutting down and canceling games and suspending games. The bravery it took and the financial cost of shutting down the basketball games. Like, oh, this needs to be applauded. The leadership it took. Hello. An entire country of billions shut down for months. In the grand scheme of things, in context, one sports league shutting down is nothing. But so...

Alright So I do have a problem With the whole shutting down Cause alright So Cause it leads to What you were saying Charlie's and Shuhui Were open Right I even know bars The whole time Yeah

Yeah, the whole time. Oh shit, okay. I was ordering from that place like a long time ago. I even know bars in Xuhui that are open. People told me Up is open. Like people were partying at Up the whole time. But anyway. My friend told me like the whole time people were like partying. It was like packed, no masks, no nothing. They were still like booking tables. So I understand you had to sacrifice me. You know, I take the sacrifice, right, for the country.

But it's not fair where like if three blocks is... Chengshu Road is three blocks from Xihui, right? And like in three blocks, the bars were open. I'm like, what the fuck? And you're going to sacrifice my ass? That would not be fair, right? So that's why I'm saying like the whole quarantine thing was not done with grace. Like if it was fair throughout...

then, yeah, I take it. You know, like, that's... But do you think, like, something at that large of a scale, do you think it can be done with grace in terms of, like, thinking of every individual business owner? Like, obviously people are going to, like, fucking eat shit, right? It just became super unfair just because, like, people literally across the street from each other, like, I had to close and you did not. And, like, you know, then, like, then you're sacrificing...

as a business owner, right? Because I have my shit too, man. Especially now, like China came out with the whole, like you have to pay all your employees, you can't lay off anybody. And that's cool, you know, like I have my social responsibilities, right? But at least make it kind of fair. Like, you know, it's like... Like make it fair for everybody. Like my shop closed and look across the street and like all the shops across the streets are open. Like they're all packed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm like...

I'm like fuck They're like How the fuck am I gonna deal with this shit They're all packed and partying over there Yeah no Yo some bars became super popular at this time Yeah Like some small bars Cause all the big clubs have to close right And people still wanna drink I heard Up became super popular Yo some That's fucked up Yo there were places Like there was one bar Like and I walked by Like

You have to squeeze into there. Fucking idiots. People were just partying. It was 1999. It was super packed. I bet you it was mostly foreigners. It was mostly foreigners. Oh, that's racist. How racist of you. I'm very racist. But overall, that part toured my business. So yeah, I lost a shit ton of money. Are you guys back on track now? We're open. We're open now. But...

- Your Cantonese restaurants as well? - One is open, the other one's not. But yeah, like, you know, like when it got really bad, right? Like when like four, maybe I have eight restaurants, I think four was shut down, right? Four out of eight was shut down. And then I'm fucking like walking by bars that are like super packed. I'm like, I'm like, bitch, why did that happen to me? Right? Why did my Ayi understand this shit differently than this Ayi?

It's funny because people out... Not in China would think like, oh, they fear the government, right? The central government. Yeah. But then it's the Ais that you guys really fear. It's like the local aunties. I have to say, Chui Hui is crazy, man. Chui Hui, they have power, yo. These aunties? They have power to fuck you up. Yeah, yeah. These aunties, you don't fuck around. Man. Well, all right, guys. Well, let's hope for... That we can...

I mean, not just China, but the whole world, right? Like, let's hope we can all do our own responsible way of living and keep this in check. Yeah. Let's all move on from this. Let's hope that everyone, no matter what country you're from, can come out of this a lot stronger and more united than we have ever been before. That is my hope. I don't think it's going to happen, but...

I mean, I think everyone just needs to invoke some common sense, think for themselves. Like I already said, don't fall into this mob mentality mindset and don't believe everything you hear on the media. Try to use some common sense, think for yourself, man. And everyone's suffering, whether you're in China or anywhere else, we're all suffering because of this. And this virus has no preference for any racial issues.

has no racial preference whatsoever. So it's going to attack everybody. And that's how we have to think of it. We need to come together and fight this. Be antisocial. Social distancing. Stay away from other people. Social distancing. That's the new thing. Self-quarantine. That's not new. We've been doing this in China for months. I'm dialing in for the next podcast. Only people in the West have been thinking this is a new thing. We've been doing this social distancing thing for months now. It's nothing new for us.

You know what I mean? It's the new norm. I think two months already, man. Two months. No, no. More than that, man. It's been like three plus months. People social distancing. Come on, dude. Almost three months. Yeah. So let's social distance. Let's just pray for everyone together. Yeah. Yeah. Let's pray for everyone. Cheers, guys. Cheers, guys. Health. Thank you, Charles. Great conversation as usual. I love you. Love you guys. I'm Justin. I'm Howie.

I'm Eric. All right, guys. See you.