Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
- What's up everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. You can always reach us at [email protected]. And if you've been enjoying the show, go ahead, rate, comment, and subscribe. Now, today, Eric and I, we get into an interesting conversation. We talk about the reoccurring dreams we've had. We talk about the beatings we got from our parents growing up and how that shaped us. We talk about our somewhat traumatic experiences learning the piano, the pros and cons of being coddled versus being abused,
And we talk about a whole lot more. I mean, the whole conversation gets a little bit emo, but it was a really good one. I really enjoyed it. So without further ado, it's the honest drink. And here we go.
So that's kind of like the reoccurring dream. It's a test I can never finish. Yeah.
Yeah. Do you think that it's, um, I want to share mine in a second, but like we talked about, you know, this mindset of like accomplishment and achievement. And then if you don't see progress, like ultimately like time becomes your enemy. And we, we had like all this, this stuff around like midlife crisis. Right. I think that clip's actually our most popular clip. I mean, apparently people are interested in that topic, but do you think there's any connection between,
Between this type of sense that we can't finish something or time is working against us versus our Asian background and the way we were raised or even Asian culture? I can only speak for myself, right? And I don't think so. I don't think it has anything to do with Asian culture. I think the idea of time running out is a universal concept.
feeling it's a universal concern it's a universal pressure i guess that's the most accurate way to say right because it is it is it's a form of pressure right and i think that's universal whether we're thinking in terms of time as in like the time we have in this life on earth or the time in terms of like a particular um duration of time we have to accomplish something right um
I mean, I think that's what kind of drives that. I mean, at the end of the day, that's probably the core of every motivation we have. I think if you strip everything else away, it's this idea of I have a limited amount of time to accomplish this certain goal, whatever that goal is. And that is probably the strongest motivation we have behind what we do. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. So I had this dream.
It's really strange. I mean, I literally had it last night. And what I've been trying to do recently is...
not use technology when I wake up kind of like wean myself off of like any kind of technology. Cause when I wake up, like, I'm like, okay, I want to look at my WeChat, you know, look at my, um, you know, heart rate, all my vitals, like all this stuff. Right. And you want to wean yourself off of that because it's just like, we need to digitally detox a little bit because that just sets you off.
off for kind of like repetitive checking your phone all day and then eventually like some days you just check your phone all day it disrupts like anything meaningful you're trying to do because you're picking up your phone like 100 times so anyways but you you check your you have the habit of checking your heart rate when you wake up yeah like my resting heart rate and heart my vitals and stuff how often do you check your heart rate heart rate throughout the day how many times
I check my workout information and my activity information like 10 times a day. No, but like that's for working out. But like are you checking your heart rate just like normally? No, I check it. If you're in the office, you're like, oh, I'm going to check my heart rate. No, no, no. I check my resting heart rate a couple times a day just to kind of keep track of it. Oh. Yeah, I don't know. I'm just... It's more like a...
I wouldn't say it's a bad habit. It's not definitely not a good habit. It's just kind of a habit. It's like, you know, people pick up their phone. Do a lot of people do that? This is the first time I'm hearing about this. People pick up their... Is this like a common thing? No, I think people check different things on their device. Like, I happen to check a lot of activity stuff, but people check other stuff. Like, the number of times I pick up my phone a day is probably not any more or less than any other person. The types of things I check it for might be different, you know? So anyways, like...
I digress a little bit, but like, so I didn't want to pick up my phone or anything like that, but it was such a strong, like I was so, there were such strong emotions associated with this dream that I wanted to really capture it so that I could go back to it. And so I woke up and then, you know, after kind of five minutes debating whether or not I should capture this, I went to the living room, got my iPad out and sort of just captured all of this. Right. And,
I, you know, I take notes every day. So what happened was I had a dream, okay, that I needed to perform at a recital. So it's really funny because like this whole thing with like what you had last week, right?
That's a piano recital? Yeah, piano recital. So Mrs. Pow, you know, rest in peace, like, you know, incredible lady. She passed away a couple of years ago. Who is this? My piano teacher that I grew up with. Just a really wonderful woman. She grew up in Japan. So she's like very disciplined, but she was actually Chinese.
And then she moved to the U.S. early on, and then she was a piano teacher, but she was renowned in Texas as one of the top piano teachers in Texas and even the country. A lot of her students ended up becoming professional pianists and going on to really great careers. My parents being...
these kind of conventional Asian parents that wanted the best for their kids sent me to this teacher and like, you know, she was known as a very, like very shung, right? Very, very strict. Very strict. Like... Would she like hit your hands with a... Well...
So apparently before, like by the time I got into her classes, she was probably like, you know, like 40 or something like that. So she already had mellowed out a little bit. So she didn't beat the kids anymore, but she would yell at you like relentlessly, you know? But she was an incredible teacher.
And just full of life, this lady, right? So anyways, we used to do recitals all the way up until I was like 18. But in this dream, I needed to perform at an outdoor recital. And there was kind of this patio setting on four sides. And there was a structure in the middle that had stairs, like some kind of weird structure. And so I had to perform at this recital. But in this recital, I hadn't fucking prepared anything.
I didn't, and it was weird because like in the recital, it was like kind of like the current me. So I hadn't been practicing or playing anything for a long time. I know exactly how you, that's my exact feeling with the test.
It's like, it's the current me, like taking a test on a subject I was supposed to be like, no, like back then, like in high school or something, you know? Yeah. And I'm just like, what? And I'm like, and I'm supposed to know this. Right. And it's like, here I am test day. Yeah. And I don't know anything. Totally unprepared. Yeah. Exactly. This feeling of like unpreparedness. Utter unpreparedness. Yeah. So, and it's funny because it brings together like,
you know, the, the, the older, the younger you versus the current you and everything's kind of mixed together. Right. So, um, one of the things that I have to do in my current role in my, in my job is I have to be like, I have to give like impromptu sort of speeches all the time, or I need to be able to like rally people, you know, be in a group of like 20 people and I need to fire them up or I need to really inspire them, you know, like connect with them. Right. So I hadn't
So in my head, in the dream, I'm like, okay, I got a strategy. So I'm like, I'm going to go to the audience, right? Because there was like a fucking shitload of people on the patio. I'm just going to like roll up and then just like fire them up. I'm like, hey, everybody, welcome to the recital, you know? Are you ready? And then I remember going up there and there wasn't a fucking mic. So I was like my pathetic puny little voice, right? I'm like, hey, everybody, right? Yeah.
It wasn't powerful at all. And I hear, I hurt myself and it was like so fucking weak. And I was like, okay, this is not going well. Right. So then I'm like, Hmm, you know what? I have a recording and this is a really strange detail. So there was a piece that I played, um,
in college i studied in the conservatory for a couple of years and i remember giving a recital to my class in college and it was like a chopin prelude it's only like two minutes long but it's like very technical and it's like you know very impressive very virtuosic you know so somehow i had a recording of that in my dream and i remember even kind of playing it right
And so I'm like, okay, well I'll do is I'll just fuck, put this shit over the loudspeakers. Right. And I'll be like, so bad-ass. And like, there's a structure in the middle where it kind of obscured, you couldn't see the performer. So I'm like, I'm just going to blast this shit over the loudspeaker. And people just think I'm a fucking bad-ass. Yeah. Right. And, um,
So I was totally unprepared and I was like panicked. And then it came time to like, I think play it through the system or whatever. And I don't know if there's technical difficulties. And I just started over like getting in my head and I'm like, you know what? I'm not prepared. Like people are just going to know because it's going to sound like it's from like a tape or something.
like i don't even have speakers and like and they're gonna be like i'm not playing live and all of a sudden like i had this feeling of like i should have been practicing all my life for this recital and i didn't even practice one second yeah you know what i'm saying yeah it's like it's like you're trying to take your sat and like and like you didn't even go to like elementary school exactly no no no that i know exactly those are my dreams
It's like SAT day is here, the day that you've been working towards like for years, right? The thing that will decide if you can get into college and what college you can get into. And everyone's been preparing for years and working their butt off, you know? And here I am just like as if taking me, Justin, today and just putting me in that seat and be like, here, take this test. And I'm like, what? Like, what? Like, I don't, like, what? You know? But the biggest difference between my dreams and yours so far is
Is that at least you had like some sort of scheme or plan to try to work around it. In my dreams, there is no plan. There's no way I can get out of it. There's like, it just is what it is. Like, there is no other... Yeah, I'm completely fucked. There's no other plan I have to try to get around this. Yeah. Yeah. Well...
It's yeah. Like I think there's that, that subtle difference. So I remember like there's that structure in the middle and I remember walking up the stairs and like seeing someone and then I'm, I'm in the middle of the structure. No one can see me. And like right then and there, I'm just like, Oh shit. Yeah.
I'm like, this is not going to work. And then there was the realization that this plan that I had is just not going to work. I'm not going to be able to pull it off completely. That's it. It's game over. I cannot pull it off. And I'm like, and I remember thinking to myself, like, I was supposed to prepare this piece for like years. I didn't even start. Like, I didn't even, it's like you're trying to take an SAT and you never even went to school. Yeah. Yeah. And then there was that moment. And then I guess I kind of woke up, right?
When I woke up, I was in a panic. I was emotionally, I was super duper emotional. I have dreams sometimes where you wake up and you just feel it's really messy when you feel all these emotions. And the emotions are more vivid than reality. And so I had to write it down. So I woke up the dream. I wrote this down. I'm like...
And this is probably an exaggeration, right? And I said, I'm wasting my life. I haven't done anything significant. I keep daydreaming every day about big accomplishments, but I've never had the ability to follow through on these things. I can't even complete like simple things in my life, like a, you know, like a report or whatever it is. Right. I can't even, like I barely could furnish my own apartment. You know, I said, this is harsh. Okay. I'm,
you know, I feel much better now. Um, but this was like my inner critic, right? Like just blasting, uh,
I said, I read all kinds of books without like even processing the information. I said, I'm constantly producing fragments of things without any coherence or constructiveness. I haven't finished anything of significance in my life. Unlike an architect who has designed and built a house and author who's written books, a director that's produced films. I've never completed any major project that takes any kind of perseverance, sustained focus and effort and bringing all the details in a tightly edited and structured fashion.
And I went through that and I like went back to sleep. I was like, fuck, I suck. Then I woke up. I'm like, woo. I'm like, let's go work out. I'm like, and then I was normal again. And so sometimes I go through these things and it's just like, is that the real me? Like, should I listen to this, this critic? Like, should this critic be there to really help me become someone great? You know, like I feel like,
it was a deep reflection of mine. Like there's a deep reflection. I don't think I've accomplished and done something from beginning to end that really took this sustained effort. Well, I think what you need to ask yourself is, is this critic that you have, is it helping you? Because not all critics necessarily help you. You know what I mean? Like, is this voice at the end of the day, when you reflect on the sum total, total of like everything that,
you know, results from this critic, like, is it actually helping you or is it actually getting in your way? You know? Yeah. Yeah. And I know you're not going to be able to answer that now, but I mean, I think that is, uh, that's something I always ask myself about my inner critic because it, you know, it's good to check yourself. It's good to criticize yourself. It has its uses, but there, but sometimes it comes to a point where it's not actually helping you anymore. And it's actually might be even holding you back.
Absolutely. And it goes back to like the question I asked you earlier and, you know, we all kind of grew up in different backgrounds. Um, and like, I've met your like family and your parents and like, I really, you know, think very highly of them. Like they were super duper supportive. You also were the younger of the two siblings. And, um, like I've,
I've met other parents like, like your parents, like it's not like they're unique. Right. And even if you go back to the Faye episode, I think as cool, like one of our listeners was saying, Hey, like, you know, like Faye's parents are not like completely just anomalies in China. Like there are more and more parents that, and teachers that are supportive. And so like, clearly they're, you know, Asian culture, like there's lots of great teachers and coaches and supporters. And at the same time, like during the time I grew up in the U S and like,
I met a lot of other Asian kids that had like really, really like strict and kind of overbearing parents that really just, you know, use this tough love approach. And I think about that a lot. And I remember like my parents, like just like constantly berating me and just being like, you're nothing, you suck. You know, you're never going to get into the great colleges. Like, you know, like you're not good enough. And I just remember this relentless barrage for like years. Like, why are you even bothering applying to these schools? You're never going to get in.
And I don't think my parents were any like that different than other parents. But like, they were definitely pretty harsh, you know, because they wanted the best for me. And, you know, I went through a lot like,
later on in my adulthood kind of trying to reconcile these things and now we have like a very positive relationship but i i kind of wonder like did those years of just being like beaten down by them so that i could rebuild myself did that kind of is that like sort of that inner critic like is the inner critic even me right yeah because even your own voice yeah i feel pretty good about myself now generally speaking but like i think the two things that scare me are like one is
Like, is that voice true? Like, is it actually true? Because like, I don't normally think that way. I normally just think, hey, things are kind of moving along. But then I'm like, shit, like, what if this is just Groundhog Day and I don't listen to that voice? And ultimately one day I wake up and it's too late, you know? That scares the shit out of me. Yeah, because you don't know if it's like, oh, is this like...
I guess, right? Because it's like, is it, you might be thinking, oh, this voice is the enemy. Meanwhile, it's your ally and you've just been ignoring it. And it's like, and the only reason why it's constantly repeating is because you keep ignoring it. And it's like trying to scream at you like, hey, you know, just listen to me. I'm trying to help you here. Maybe I have that fear too. I have that fear too. But is it more of the fact that you've never listened to this inner critic? Yeah.
Or do you listen to it? Because if you have been listening to it and you still feel like you haven't been making any progress and you're still stuck where you are, then maybe it's not helping you. But if you haven't been listening to it, maybe try listening to it sometime and actually acting on it. I think the fear is that I've heard the voice for a long time and I've never had... What it's criticizing me about is precisely the weakness that I have of not having...
the drive and perseverance and focus to like follow through. And it's keeps reminding me. And then it's just like, it's like, it's like you're an alcoholic. And so like, yeah, I mean, fucking people are like, look, you're drinking your life away and you can't stop yourself. And like, that scares the shit out of me. And then, you know, like I, I think the antidote to that is like talking to your friends and like understanding your blind spots. And like, generally I don't think like anyone's trying to intervene in my life.
You know, like I have a lot of good friends. Like I work with really great people. And I think people most of the time are telling me you're too hard on yourself. At the same time, like maybe the standards that my parents gave me, you know, are deeply embedded inside of me. I mean, you've met my parents and you know that like you got you and Howie together.
you know have commented before that like now you understand me after you met my mom right because she's just like all about high standards and stuff like that so so it's really yeah i don't know what to think anymore you know but it is like god like i hope these dreams don't just happen every night it'd be like debilitating if you had these nightmares every night yeah yeah i mean i think i think these uh whether it's these dreams or it's um the inner voice the inner critic
I think it's a certain self-awareness, right? That's what the voice is. It's a certain self-awareness that you're looking at yourself and you're like, wait a minute, but I haven't really done the things I really want to do. I'm not good at this. I'm not good at motivating myself. So it's you being very ultra aware of yourself, right?
like objectively and being like, okay, well, these are things I suck at, right? These are things I'm not doing. So yes, it could be ultra self-awareness, but at the same time, there still comes to a point where, well, what does that self-awareness really mean? If you're not acting on it, is it really helping you to constantly be thinking about these voices? And maybe it comes to a certain point where you need to
find a way to move past these voices to kind of muffle the sound of these voices and maybe that will help free you. Because maybe freedom to do a lot of these things, maybe the motivation comes from, I mean, it's a little bit counterintuitive, but maybe it comes from the lack of that pressure to do it. You know what I'm saying? Almost. Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like the idea of like,
When you treat something like it's work, it's taxing because it feels like it's work. It's a chore. It's a negative. But when you treat that very same thing as you're playing it, like it's a game, you're playing at this thing, it could be the same task. All of a sudden, you're almost kind of like you excel at it.
because all of a sudden, like, you get more creative about it, you get excited about it, you know, you almost have this, like, less pressure to do it, but that lessen pressure almost makes you excel at doing it at the same time, you know what I'm saying? So, I don't know. Well, I guess the final thing I'll say on this one is maybe that, like, your dreams are just sort of, like, your biggest fears, and your dreams...
Like whether it's like you taking that test over and over and over, or whether it's me, like, you know, not being ready for this piano recital, like maybe it's not, you know, an indictment of your life, but, um,
you know, it's what you're afraid that could happen. Right. If you don't sort of like take advantage of time, you know, I think like, uh, do you remember, um, a Christmas story like Charles Dickens and like that's, um, Ebenezer Scrooge story was like, so he made a lot of money, but then like he had this nightmare and his nightmare is like, Oh my God. Like he, he really saw himself like he was just a total dick and,
you know, he was, he was, um, is that the one with like the ghost of Christmas? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like the ghost of Christmas future. And then he, he could see himself and like what his life would, would eventually become. And it was like, you know, he had made all this money, but he was just, he was a mean and cruel man. And like, he, um, he didn't care about others and all this stuff. And then he had that dream and it just freaked him out. And then like, after that, he became a good person. So maybe like our dreams are just sort of like, that's like the worst case scenario, right? Like that's what,
It's like a reminder and a warning that if you don't like, you know, if you don't make the right, start making more better decisions in your life, that could be what you become. It's not what you are now. And it doesn't mean that you will turn out that way. However, you just, it's like kind of a reminder. It's a little bit of a reality check. I guess, but I feel like...
I disagree in terms of my personal experience with this dream. I disagree in that it's not just like this reminder of, okay, I'm reminding you, maybe this might happen in the future. For me, it's like immediately urgent because I'm already taking this test. It's like five minutes till like the end of like the time to finish the hand in this test. And so like, I think it's more about looking at my current situation and
And being like, you're already failing. You're already at this point of where you're not doing the right things and you're not accomplishing enough. Like this is you. This is today's snapshot of your situation, right? Yeah. And so for me, it was like this much stronger sense of urgency about it.
And it's not just like a kind of polite warning of the future, you know, possibility. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Well, that's how it felt. Like, absolutely. And I'm trying to maybe just rationalize it a little bit or sugarcoat it a little bit. But yeah, like, I mean, when I woke up this morning, it was that Charles Dickens, A Christmas Story. It was a, you know, pouring like cold water in your face. And it was like, hey, you better fucking...
get your shit together, you know? And so it is, it's, that's, that's the scary part of it. Um, but I, I wanted to ask you, so kind of like moving on to a more, um, kind of positive side. So like we, you had that dream last week, right? And I just had this dream. So like, what was, uh, was there anything this past week, um, that you learned or that you changed in your life to, um,
move you forward? I don't want to put you on the spot, but. I mean, you are putting me on the spot here. But I mean, I would love to sit here and say like, yeah, you know, I learned this. I'm moving forward and like, hurrah, you know, hooray for me. I don't know, man. I don't think I've learned really anything new this week in terms of really significantly changing my position on things.
Okay, well, there's one thing that I learned, and this is from a previous episode. And it's with a guest, Janine, I had on. And she's a happiness and career coach. And was that like, when did you do that episode, by the way? Well, that was last week. So you did it in between the July 4th Independence Day edition and
Yeah, but depending on how I publish these episodes or when I publish the episodes, it might not be chronologically in sync with what we're saying right now. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. But there's one thing I kind of took away with what she was saying, and we were talking about like,
the correlation between like happiness and success, right? And it's almost like we grow up thinking, like it's like the chicken or the egg, right? Like what comes first? The chicken or the egg, you know, like the eternal debate, right? And I think we think about happiness and kind of success in the same way. It's like, oh, like what comes first?
And traditionally, I think we think, okay, well, you have to suffer first to eventually get be successful. And then once you're successful, then you can be happy. You know, like there's this like this order to it, right? That's like suffer and work really hard, right? And maybe you can be successful. And once you're successful, then maybe you can be happy.
And that's how we go about thinking about things. So we kind of put this idea of our self-happiness on the back burner growing up when we're young. Well, I think maybe a lot of people do who are under a lot of pressure. They're like, my happiness isn't important right now. It's not about if I'm happy. I need to just fucking kill it and work hard, work myself to death, you know, just really break my back so that I can eventually be successful. And then maybe I can be happy.
But what she was saying is that there are scientific, there's a lot of scientific data, scientific research that shows, in fact, that it's happy people who are happy to kind of begin with that have the higher chances and higher rates of success in life. You know? So it's really interesting in that if you just take the evidence from these studies, that it's kind of almost, well, you should prioritize your happiness first, right?
Because that is one of the biggest key indicators of whether or not you're going to be successful. So I think that really kind of put it in a different way where it's very different than how most of us are growing up to believe. And if we can almost like lighten the load off of our shoulders in terms of this pressure, lighten the direness, right? The gloom and the cloud above us the whole time. Maybe that will help us
achieve success because maybe that actually elevates us and actually empowers us to actually do more things, to do the things we want to do and to actually excel at these things. Right. So maybe it's not success has to come before happiness. Maybe happiness comes before success. Right.
So that was kind of like something very profound. I'm not saying I fully agree with it, but it's something I'm thinking about right now. It's something that's definitely, it's a new perspective that really kind of, that I'm really thinking about right now in terms of, okay, maybe there is something to that. Maybe this is sort of like something I have to try to practice, right? And it's not happiness in terms of like, oh, just go fuck around and party. I mean, that's not really happiness. We're talking about, you know, happiness in terms of,
A lot of things we've always talked about on this show, right? It's not the kind of trivial things. That's not real happiness. But it's about a certain sense of self-worth. It's having a certain sense of self-confidence. It's having a certain positive mindset and outlook on the world and yourself. I mean, that is happiness. Happiness is not necessarily about the things you've done. You know, going on a yacht party with your friends and taking pictures and
That's a happy moment, but that's not really happiness. Happiness comes from internal, despite what you're doing. It's a mindset. It's an attitude. It's a choice. So I think that's the kind of happiness I'm talking about, that maybe that comes before success. That can help you gain success instead of thinking you have to be successful first in order to be happy.
Maybe we're going about it the wrong way. You know, that's all I'm saying. That's very profound. I'm glad I put you on the spot and I wish I could have been on that episode with Janine. Sounds like a great episode. I look forward to listening to it. I want to unpack that a little bit. Okay. And I'm going to unpack it with a, with a little bit of the tiger mom, dad filter, right?
we know that you had like, you know, like, uh,
Puppy parents. You had puppy parents that we all wish we had, but I had like fucking dragon dinosaur parents, right? Like my parents weren't even tiger parents. You met... Well, my dad was pretty chill, but my mom was a dinosaur, Tyrannosaurus Rex mom, right? Well, yes, but okay. My dad was a puppy dad. My mom wasn't necessarily a puppy mom. Yeah, your mom. Yeah. I mean, what do you expect? Like your mom... She beat the crap out of us. Yeah, a Taiwan mom. Like your mom, but...
Your mom was part, yeah, like your mom and my mom. They were just much more liberal than your parents. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like your dad is pretty chill. Like if your mom met my mom, they would have a Tyrannosaurus Rex party. Like they would have like, you know, they would be eating like brontosauruses. You know, we were like little fucking brontosauruses. I'm going to unpack this a little bit. So many Asian people,
kids growing up, just kind of be paint with broad strokes. I've had a lot of Chinese American friends growing up, Indian American, Filipino American, Thai American, all sorts of different types of Asian friends growing up. And one thing we all shared in common with the exception of, well, I guess your mom beat you. But basically what we all shared in common was that our parents beat us.
both my parents beat me. So I was like in more of the extreme. Only one of your parents beat you. Like you were blessed. Yeah. If like one of... I got 50% of the beatings. So basically it's like our listeners can probably, I don't know, maybe relate to this story
if you're Asian, but probably this generation. And I think I have a feeling our listeners are fairly young. I think with the one child kind of thing going on in China, there's a lot of like strictness, but the beatings probably are a little bit less because I talked to a lot of my colleagues, right? But basically it's like if you're Asian, but you grew up in outside of China, okay, 90% chance that both parents beat you.
80% chance that your parents beat you and your uncle and aunts beat you and your grandparents might have beaten you, right? And then if you're someone like Justin where only one parent beat you, you were like, oh my God. Wait, you got beaten by your aunts and aunts? I got... Your uncles? Yeah. Yeah. Your grandparents beat you? They all just took turns beating you? My...
I'm just picturing like a large family gathering in your house and everyone's just taking turns beating your ass. My granddad was...
Well, they gave me like this mallets, which is like basically they use your knuckle and they crack your head and then your head like grows a little thing. It's like a mallet. Oh, shit. So, yeah, my grandpa was pretty strict. He was chill later on in his life. I mean, the guy lived to 100. I love my grandpa. Wow, I never knew that. I just thought it was your parents beating you, but like your relatives all beat you too? Not all of them. But like you just pretty much named almost all. Oh, yeah. I mean, there was fear. Wow. I didn't know that. Yeah.
Well, I'm sorry. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. Wow. Yeah. Damn. Yeah. Okay. No, none of my aunts beat me. But like... Your uncles beat you? I remember my grandpa definitely like cracked me on the head a few times. Okay. But anyways, now that like sort of what you were saying, I'm reflecting on this thing, your conversation with Janine. Janine? Is it Janine? Janine, yeah. Okay. Yeah.
Janine Jakob. Janine Jakob. Janine, we need to get you back on the show. I need a therapist. But the mindset, the value structure of a lot of Asian parents going to the U.S. was that you've got to put in the work first. There's no happiness. There's no gratification. You've got to put in the work first. And when I think about it, I'm kind of reflecting. It's like...
if you make this sacrifice, because they made tons of sacrifices, their parents made sacrifices. They grew up during tough times.
Which is not unique to Asian people. If you look at some of like Americans, like just that have been in America for a long time and you talk, you know, people talk about their grandparents or great grandparents, the same thing, right? Yeah. They're just much more hardcore. I mean, in America, people beat their kids too, but it was a couple of generations back where they'd use their belt. Yeah. And give you a hard beating. Right. So it's not unique to Asian culture, but, you know, putting in the work first and, and,
I don't know if that really worked on me. Like it might not work on all kids, but like I was more about the gratification first. And I was someone who, if I really enjoyed doing something, I'd be great at it. If I didn't enjoy something, I would suck at it. And I still have this fear. And so there are things where like, I'm constantly, I've avoided things my whole life. Right. I've avoided them. And then, you know, what happens when you avoid things, they just become,
Yeah. In the closet. Like it's a small little bug and it becomes a monster. So I really appreciate what you said about
like people who end up starting out happy in their life, end up working harder and becoming really successful. Cause it's that pressure of like trying to do something that you don't want to do because it's always been framed in a way where it doesn't matter if you like it, you got to fucking do it. You got to suffer. Yeah. You got to suffer. And that's the cost. But if it's only suffering, like I've built this thing up, this monster in my head where if it's only suffering, I don't want to do it. And so like my dream is about all of these things that, um,
I've suffered for and I never found any kind of like joy in it because I was so scared and fearful of this thing where there actually was joy in it, but it, but it was like piano playing. I was about to say the exact same thing. Like I actually love music, but it was taught to me in a way that was like, like all the joy was sucked out of it. And it was all about just like, you got to fucking practice music.
you know, X amount of hours a day. We bought this expensive piano. And so I think I've turned a lot of things in my life into like, it's just suffering. And the change is I have, and I have to teach myself this because my default mode is to view everything as suffering is that to say, Hey, let's just have some fun. So like the podcast is definitely something where like,
I have this, this, this struggle in my head sometimes. Right. And I think it's gotten better and better. Like having a podcast is a fucking fun thing, but you put so much pressure on yourself that you've got to deliver that it's not fun anymore. And we've talked about this in an early episodes. Like part of the reason why we drink is to just like let go and loosen up and not be so like, um, pressured by it. But I, I definitely like the first 20 or so shows, um,
Like they ended up great, but I felt a lot of pressure. And it's only recently that I've started to find more and more joy. And like, you know how I get all obsessive about our goals. Like we got to have interesting people. It's me trying to convince myself that this is not some type of work or some type of like pressure. It's something where I can learn from. And so like, I've really had to unwind a lot of my upbringing the last, you know,
10 years or so to help myself understand that life is not just about suffering, right? You have to put in the time and the work, but I was only viewing anything worth doing as just like, you know, suffering. And it was painful when you view your life as just everything is a struggle. Yeah. I mean, that's so true, but I think that's like what like everyone grows up thinking almost, right? Like everyone I talked to, like, of course you associate hard work, right? With,
With almost like the suffering. You associate hard work as like this kind of like negative thing where it's like back-breaking labor, like rolling a giant boulder up a hill, right? And that's what hard work is. But hard work doesn't have to be that.
You can work hard, but love every minute of it. Every second of it can be hard work, but you can be having the best time of your life doing it. Yeah. Right. And I think that's what we have to find. And yeah, I know it's a lot easier said than done, but that, I mean, but it's, it's a worthwhile pursuit. It's a worthwhile thought to try to achieve. Right. And going back to you, like your panel piano example, I had the same thing. Um,
I've loved music. I still do. And I've always loved it growing up. It's one of my major life passions is music. And obviously, you know that, you know, I like to play the guitar, right? So the whole reason why I ever even learned to play the guitar in the first place was because I... So in the beginning, the first instrument my mom wanted me to play was the violin.
Very cliche, you know, Asian stereotype. The violin. And so I was made, and this was when I was a little kid. And I was made to stand in kind of the living room at the time for hours and play the violin. And I would fall asleep standing up with the violin on my shoulders, like pressed between my chin. How old were you? Under 10 years old.
And so, and my mom would tell the story too. She would like walk in and I'd be like sleeping, standing up with like the violin between my shoulder and my chin, kind of snapped there and just like, and then she would have to wake me up and I'll have to start playing again. So I hated it. I hated it. And then, and then, so then after that, because I wasn't making too much progress with the violin, they moved me to the piano. And it was a very strict regimen around learning the piano as well.
And because it was treated as such like a chore, it was like eating vegetables for me. Right. Yeah. I ended up hating that too, but I love music. It's not like I don't have an appreciation for music. I didn't have an interest to learn music. I do. And I did. So then it got to the point where I stood up for myself and like kind of in a small rebellious gesture was like, was like, look,
It doesn't have to be the piano. It doesn't have to be a violin. Let me choose my own instrument that I want to play and I'll, and then just give me a chance. Don't Lord over me. Don't give me a set schedule of practice time. You know, just let me learn on my own. Maybe I'll get a teacher that I want to choose and just let me learn on my own and just give me a certain amount of time. Like maybe it was like a year or something. And if I'm not making significant progress on my own by then,
then we'll go back to your way of doing things. But just give me a chance because I want to prove to you I can excel at an instrument, but just let me do it on my own because I actually had the passion for it. And the instrument I chose, my choice was guitar. So they bought me a guitar. They bought me my first, my parents bought me my first guitar and they paid for my first guitar teacher.
And it was this guy that I chose and he was just this old guy. He wasn't even really a legitimate guitar teacher. He was just this old guy in the attic of this rundown house. Like we would sit literally in attic. You would have to hunch down to even go in. And he would chain, it was like small ass room. It was just me and him sitting there on these stools. And he would just chain smoke in front of me. Just chain smoke, right? Yeah.
But it was really cool because he would be like...
he'd be like, "What do you want to learn?" I'd be like, "Oh, I want to learn this song." And he'd be like, and then boom, he started playing it right away. And I would bring in CDs. So at that time, Green Day was like a really hot, the Dookie album, that was a really hot band. So I brought in my Green Day CD, I would bring in a CD player too, and I would play him the songs that I wanted to learn. And he would listen to it for a few minutes, he'd be like, "Mm-hmm," like smoking, right? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Cigarette dangling out of his mouth.
And then five minutes later, he would just, because he would just know it by ear, right? He would just show me the chords and play it. And we would play the songs. And I would learn like kind of the songs, how to play the guitar. So after that, for a while, then I started just practicing on my own, learning songs on my own and my own, you know. And then it just became this thing. And then my parents left me alone after that. Because forever until, you know, I just started picking up the guitar. I started excelling at the guitar.
Right. Later I was in a band and everything and it just became my thing. Right. And it became like a really positive part of my life. So, I mean, all these memories, I haven't thought about this since I was a kid, but like, you know, all these memories are kind of flooding back now because of what you just said about like the kind of piano thing. And I was just thinking how that kind of just...
really spawned this whole cycle of me like eventually learning the guitar I probably would never even have thought to pick up the guitar had I not disliked playing the piano so much you know yeah yeah but now I regret not being better at piano so yeah you know what does that go to say I well that's that's a great story I I um
I don't know if we've tapped a lot into like our childhood and stuff like that, but I think it's a great story. It reminds me, um, I can't remember if we talked about this recently, but father's day was, uh, June 21st, right? Shout out to, uh, all the fathers. Um, and, uh, you know, like one of the things that happens with fathers is that, um,
Are we being, are we, do we lose something? No. Oh, go ahead. Cause I think this is some good content. Yeah, no, I know. I was just, I was just pressing this button. Yeah. One of the things, you know, like fathers kind of get the short end of the stick, right? Like moms always get the best gifts. Moms always get like all the good shit, right? Like you'd never miss like mother's day, like birthdays. And then fathers are just like, you know, they get the short end of the stick, like, oh, you know, and then, or like,
you know, for like Chinese Americans or Asian Americans, like my father has this like birthday. So it's not even like on the normal calendar. We don't even know when it is. Yeah. So like literally like five days after my mom's like, oh yeah, it was your dad's birthday like five days ago. I'm like, oh, too late. You know? And like, what do you get him? Right? Like there's only so many iPhones and, you know, I mean, those are expensive gifts. So
uh, like I gave him this thing called story worth this year and I heard it on, um, like a podcast and story worth is basically like, um, you know, this, this company, uh, that started a few years ago and they just come up with like, uh, questions that you can ask, you know, your parents, um,
like your dad or your mom and there's really really cool questions like they curate like hundreds of awesome questions like about their childhood you know about parenthood about everything that like you would want your kids to know about their grandparents like about like think about your grandparents or great-grandparents right and like all the things you want to know about your great-grandparents but you didn't get a chance because no one thought to ask these questions
So StoryWorth has this whole database of questions and what it does is it emails like your dad or your mom every week, once a week, and you can select the questions. They have like a default sort of sequence of questions and it like, um, emails them and then they can, um,
you know, either respond and text or you can talk to them. So like for, for those of us who don't live in the same city as our parents, then it's a reason for me to talk to my dad and kind of interview him. And I've always wanted to do this. I always wanted to interview them and get them on video and all this stuff. But this is like now like a formal like subscription, um,
And so then it all gets tracked and into their system. And then at the end of the year, you know, like it goes into a book and you can put pictures in and all this stuff. Right. And one of the categories of questions, of course, is like their childhood and what they were like.
And there's another one that talks about like parenthood, right? So like a couple of questions they had that are really interesting are like, what are some of the choices you made about how to raise like me or you, right? And what advice would you give others when it comes to raising children, right?
Right. Or like, you know, what would you do differently, like with your grandkids? Or what would you want your kids to do differently with your grandkids in terms of like raising them? Right. So it's really, really fascinating because people change.
But I wanted to ask you, right? You know, based on like the story you had with the violin and piano, it was really fascinating because my parents were like much more... I was just not as brave as you are. Like you demonstrated a lot more courage, a lot more savvy, like negotiating with them, right? Almost like an adult. Like when I was a kid, I was just like scared of my parents. I was petrified. Well, maybe that's because your parents were probably just a lot more hardcore than mine. Could be. But like...
Like, how would you, like, we may have talked about this in a previous show, but, like, based on, like, everything you learned, right, and what we've learned from the show, like, raising a kid, right, what do you think the best way to motivate people is, and in particular a kid? You know, I don't know, man. Why do you sigh? I sigh because, like, that's something I've always thought about.
And I just don't know if I have an answer for that. I felt like if I can answer that, I'd probably be like a motivational speaker. You know what I mean? Like, I think that's a really tough question to answer. I mean, who really knows? Like, what is the best way? Because, I mean, everyone's different, right? Everyone responds to certain motivating pressures, right? In different ways. Well, okay, let me ask you this, right? So you...
But I do think some sort of balanced approach. I do feel like there is a fine line to walk of balancing between, you know, because like, I think like right now, especially in the West, we see kind of this overcorrection. I don't know if it's an overcorrection, but we see it kind of going a little too far with like,
people like giving like participation trophies, right? Like participation trophies to kids. And like you go to like a little league game or like a little kid soccer game and they say, Oh, there's no losers. And they don't keep track of points, you know, like that kind of bullshit. Yeah. I feel like that's a little too far because I feel like kids do needs to be grounded as some sort of reality.
Prepare for the world that they're gonna go in where competition is a real thing. There are winners and losers out there. So to be like, to raise a kid in this ultra, ultra positive where nothing they do was wrong, where you tell them they can be anything and do anything and they're the best at everything and whatever it is, and praise them and praise them and praise them, I feel like that's a little too much.
but to kind of do what your parents did to you, that's also too much. So there's, I mean, the obvious answer is obviously there's some sort of balance to be struck there. But I do see it like in this younger generation, right? Kids growing up, especially in the West, like they're just being coddled maybe way too much. And I guess the question then comes down to is which one is the bigger evil ultimately? Being overly coddled and sheltered
or being overly like beaten down and verbally abused, right? Because you can argue for either side. You can argue for either side. You can argue that, you know, eventually being beaten down and overly abused, that might end up making you tougher and stronger because you've had to persevere through that and overcome that as a young kid. So you are more ready to enter this dog-eat-dog world, right? Yeah.
And that being overly coddled and living in this bubble of positivity and shelter. And once you're set free into the wild, you just get eaten alive. And you don't know how to cope when you realize, oh shit, I'm not the best. You know what I mean? So you can argue that point. And I'm sure you can argue the opposite. So I don't know. Well said. Well said. I think that...
you've mentioned a word balance and I've been thinking about this word balance and sometimes balance becomes like a dirty word or like balance is like the word that you use when you don't want to, you know, take kind of take a stand and yeah, it's the easy way out. And like, like, Oh, I want balance and all this stuff. And, um, but I think balance is the right word. What balance to me means is not being in the middle. Like I don't,
view balance as being in the middle i view balance is understanding when you need to go to the extreme on either side to be able to have the best approach and so balance like is not like you stay in the middle it's not the middle you're it's not the middle right absolutely right about balance is like understanding understanding the right ratio
So for that particular thing, right? So in a particular context, in a particular topic we're talking about, maybe the ratio between these two things is 60-40. And that is the correct balance for that particular thing. Maybe another thing, it's more like 70-30. 70% this thing, 30% that thing is the right balance. It's not a 50-50. Balance doesn't have to mean 50-50, like you're saying. I would add to that. I would say that
like going 50, 50, 70, 30, 60, 40 could be a great start. But ultimately the optimum approach is not even having like a set figure. It's understanding it might end up being 70, 30, but it's really understanding like from this, like situationally, like timing wise, like a fluid approach to it approach. And so like, if you think about like, I go back to like sports, right? Cause I think like you can ask yourself, like what does the science actually tell us? Because sports is all about money.
And whereas like parenting doesn't necessarily like have profits that, you know, drive people. Sports is about profits. Like if your team wins or loses, it's about profits. Whereas parenting is more of an individual thing. It impacts the broader society. But, you know, there aren't organizations that sort of are measuring like parental success, right? They're not linked directly to that.
But sports, definitely, like if you win or lose. And so what does the science tell us? That's a really great question. And we can probably like, you know, offline, we can like learn more. But when I think about like really successful, just anecdotally successful sports organizations, something I'm interested in. But definitely when you say discipline, yeah, there's discipline.
Like, you think about Alabama. So for our listeners in China, Alabama is a university in America, and they're really, really good at football. And football at the university level is very lucrative business. Alabama has one of the best teams. The coach, Nick Saban, is really well-respected.
renowned for both being disciplined and being supportive and encouraging. So when you ask your players... He's known as the greatest college football coach of all time. Yeah, like he's won the most championships, right? And like you hear when people talk, when his ex-players talk about him, it's not just about discipline. Like they became better people because of him. There definitely was discipline. So to your point, Justin, earlier, it's not just about... I love what you said. It's like...
uh, it was really well said kids do need to be grounded in some sort of reality, uh, where competition is a real thing. Cause in the real fucking world, there are winners and losers. There definitely are winners and losers. And discipline is part of that because kids at that age are not mature enough to understand what reality is. At the same time, kids are fragile. Kids are fucking fragile. And I was a very fragile kid. And, um,
So I needed support and encouragement and all those things. And then when you think about your own style, because leadership is another thing. It's not just about your kids. I don't have kids yet, but you work in organizations where you have leaders that inspire you. And of course, there are people that are newer in the organization that you're trying to encourage. And I would say sometimes I default to this encouraging approach because I just don't
have all these memories of like getting beaten down and, you know, verbally abused and all that stuff. And so like, I, I'm very thoughtful and intentional about trying to be more supportive and encouraging, but sometimes, you know, when I kind of snap,
then that other side comes out of me. But I think like, you know, like there's not a one size fits all approach and there's not a one size fits all even for an individual. Like sometimes you just gotta be hard on the person. There has to be a, when I think about the best leaders that I had, definitely there were times where I got my ass handed to me
Right. However, most of the time it was encouraging. And so I think like, that's what balance is. Balance isn't 50, 50 balances and even like 70, 30, 80, 20 balances. Like there is this, uh, this scale where you move back and forth based on what situation. And if you need to get,
You know, if you need to get an ass whooping, you get an ass whooping. It's just that, but you shouldn't be getting an ass whooping every single day and you shouldn't be like sugarcoating and getting cookies like fucking all your life. You know, it's gotta be a combination. That's a really, really good point. Yeah. I wasn't thinking about it in terms of that, but that's so true.
It can't be a static formula. It can't be a static ratio where it's only 70-20, I mean 70-30, 80-20, 50-50, whatever it is. And like you said, it's a sliding scale. And depending on the situation and what the context is, that scale can slide from one extreme to the other very quickly. Yeah.
But the point is that it's always sliding. It's never fixed and static in one position. Absolutely. Yeah, and I find like, you know, one thing that I just thought about in this conversation is like, if you were to do like a word bubble for us and like basically imagine you did a word cloud for everyone over time. Now we've got, you know, our stuff recorded.
And so imagine like we've, you know, like let's say that we find some success like with this podcast and we do it for another 10 years or something like that. Right. I'd love to, there's nothing that would give me more joy than doing that. And imagine we did like word clouds. Imagine how your vocabulary changes. What's a word cloud again? Okay. Let me try to think. So word cloud is sort of like you take all the words that like, let's say a politician says, and then you create like a map and,
So like, let's say that like you get, um, there's some politician, right. It's often used in terms of like a politician or a leader to understand what they're thinking. So imagine like you took their speech, um,
And sometimes they take a speech and they like, they give you like a map, right? A visual representation of like the top 20 words that they spoke. And then like the more they speak certain words, the word gets bigger and the less they speak, it gets smaller. So then you can see like, what was the theme of what they're trying to say? So imagine you did like a word cloud for us over time. Like you could like, there's a lot of things you can measure. For instance, like I use a lot of like negative gloomy words over time, but
then you could see that maybe my mood and my emotions were going in one direction. And then if you saw like some motivational speakers, maybe like everything is like happy, satisfied, whatever. They've even done stuff for like, um,
you know like people like steve jobs or you know like that where they can see like okay he likes to say certain words and they're always like outstanding spectacular phenomenal right so imagine you did like a word cloud for us um what you would find over time in terms of our thinking right yeah that'd be interesting yeah the reason i mentioned is because i use the word context a lot
Because I feel like a lot of things have to be really thought in terms of like zooming out and zooming in what we talked about a couple of shows ago where it's like, okay, if you're on a satellite in space, you could see things really, really clearly in a certain way. But then...
You still need to stay in touch with reality of like, what's the temperature on the ground? What's the emotion on the ground? And so that's context. It's really understanding things in the right way, zooming out to a level where you can see what it is. If you go to a Monet painting and you, and you look at it like right up against it, you won't know what it is. So it's always sort of like finding that right distance. And I think parenting or leadership is finding the right distance between you and
and the other person so that you can have the right conversation. And I think that when you get too static, like the word you use static, and you're always having like that same approach, that's when you can't really get beyond that. You can't really grow in the most sort of like efficient way. Well put. And I think this applies not only to parenting leadership, but
But also to going back to what we started this conversation with is our own inner voice and how we kind of lead ourselves and how we manage ourselves and how we parent ourselves in a way, right? So it's like, it's in our own mindset. I think too often, maybe we get too stuck and static on a certain thing.
on a certain point on that scale. So we're always like, like what you like to say a lot is like, we're always playing the victim mentality or, or we can, or it can be on the other end of that scale where we're only as kind of just like overly
positive about everything. And we're just, no matter what, we're always positive, positive, positive. And that has its uses, but maybe the best way, like we're saying is even the way we outlook our outlook and our mindset on the world and how we govern ourselves should always, we should always be aware that that needs to be a sliding scale. Sometimes we need to kick our own ass, but sometimes we need to be our biggest cheerleaders at the same time.
And it just needs to be a fluid thing. And we can't always get stuck on just one mindset. Whether it's a positive mindset or a negative mindset, I think it's always about going back to that word balance. And it ties back exactly into how we need to properly manage ourselves and our own emotions.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's this calibration process. But it's hard, right? Because we feel like our outlook and our mindset is so connected to our identity almost, right? There's almost this sense of my identity is my mindset. My identity is my emotional state almost. So you have this kind of...
You have this sense of like self where I am a positive person. I am a negative person. I am an optimist. I am a pessimist. Oh, I almost see the glasses half full. I almost see the glasses half empty and almost becomes like your identity. Like that's who you are, right? But that shouldn't be the case. I think that needs to always be fluid as well, where there are times where it's great to
to have a good positive outlook on things. But maybe there are times where you kind of need to tone it back a little bit and be a little more grounded and be like, okay, this isn't good. This isn't what should be happening. Or even sometimes being like, hey, I suck at that. But it's okay, I suck. But I suck. And move on to the next thing. Very true. It's funny. I'm just talking on my ass right now. No, you gotta...
But what I'm saying is like, there's like this fluidness, like, like I feel like, because for me, I feel like I'm so static in terms of like how I see my own identity. And I'm just realizing this now having this conversation with you, you know? Yeah. But it changes. It needs to change. What you said was powerful. And like, I want to crack a joke so bad. Like I do it. Crack it.
Well, I'm not going to crack a joke about it. I'm not going to crack a joke about your ass. Oh. Okay. Anyways. We talked about this balance and context and like you talked about how this goes for our internal mood and our internal state. I was listening to a guided meditation by one of the
One of the kind of the most influential teachers in meditation, Joseph Goldstein. He's a legend and he's taught many, many, many people. He's one of the most influential sort of meditation teachers and gurus. And the guided meditation today was about I am versus there is.
Okay. And this, I mean, you actually just like, I mean, it's brilliant. You don't even fucking meditate, do you? So the exercise was that whatever you're doing, you can reflect on the I am. So like I was walking outside towards your apartment and I was like, it's hot. I'm hot. I'm walking. I'm sweaty. I'm a little bit impatient, et cetera, et cetera. And so he walks you through that process where you say, I am.
which is a fixed thing, a static thing. And then he says, okay, now start shifting that mindset and saying there. Okay. So if you say I'm hot, you said, uh, there's heat or, um, you know, I feel like I am sticky right now. It's like, oh, well there's some stickiness involved or like I'm hot.
you know, impatient and there is impatience. So you start detaching your identity with how you're feeling in the moment, exactly what you're saying. And, you know, this definitely, I mean, we, we tend to then equate in that moment, how we feel. And so it's like, I'm, I'm ecstatically happy and we're chasing that happiness and,
Cause then I'm a happy person, but Oh, now I'm sad. And you know, I want to avoid that. The reality is the mindfulness helps you identify these States. These States are individual of you. Like,
Do you have a patent on being happy or unhappy? No. Fucking 50 billion people have experienced the same fucking emotion as you. We're all wired the same. We're human beings. So if you're sad or unhappy or whatever, do you own that emotion? Nope. You don't. That's so fucking arrogant to think that you own that emotion. So he says that,
you step back and you say, okay, there is this emotion. Everyone's experienced it. And then you can move on from it. And so like, we shouldn't over index. We shouldn't always be happy because if we're always happy, we're probably not chasing and going for the things that we need to go for.
It's in the short term and we shouldn't always be suffering and unhappy because, you know, we need to experience life in the right way. And so there's this balance that the emotions are basically a cue to what you need to do. So happiness is a cue that you need to be grateful and experience and enjoy the time on the planet.
And unhappiness is a cue to say, hey, like there's probably some things in my life that I need to continue to adapt and change and refine. But if it's always one or the other, you're probably not moving in the right direction. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It's this idea that we take, we internalize all our feelings and our emotions and we make that our identity where these are in large part very external things, right?
And we're floating around in this ether experiencing these things. So sometimes we're happy, sometimes we're sad, sometimes we're angry, whatever it is. But these are kind of external experiences that we end up internalizing and identifying with. And that can be a dangerous thing. Absolutely. And maybe from that we say, you should be happy when you should be happy. And you should be angry when you should be angry. So
there are times when you need to be angry and you should be angry. That's a natural response to what's happening. And there are times you should be happy. What we need to be mindful of is that there is a moment where you're angry when you should be happy. And there's a moment where like you're, you know, you're content and satisfied when you really should be thinking about the future. And it's getting those patterns correct and saying that, um,
You shouldn't always be one emotion. The motion should match the moment. At a risk of taking this one step too far and just falling flat on my face, I'm going to paint another metaphor here. It's like we're a water molecule, right? It's like we're a molecule of water. And we can't identify with a particular state that we're in, whether we're in a gas state, a liquid state, or a solid state.
And so depending on the temperature of the environment, which is like these different experiences we go through, sometimes it's hot, sometimes it's cold, sometimes it's room temperature. We go through different states. We either freeze, we become ice, which is a solid. We evaporate, which becomes a gas. Or when room temperature where we're a liquid. But we can't identify ourselves as always one state because it's completely dependent on the environment we put ourselves in.
Right? I don't know. That's perfect. Did I fall flat on my face? No, that's great. This whiskey had some ice cubes in it. It's got liquid. Yeah. Well, now it's in the liquid state. And it's got some incredible whiskey vapors. So cheers to that. Cheers. All right, Dr. Yang.
That's pretty strong. Just call me Justin Goldstein. What was his name? Jeff Goldstein? Which one? The meditation guy that you mentioned. Joseph Goldstein. Joseph Goldstein. All right. All right. Justin. Dr. Justin Goldstein. You know what was really funny, though? Rogan? You know what was really funny? When you were saying like, oh, this like you had like you were going to you were about to introduce like this guru of meditation. Just like this. This crazy guy.
I was expecting to hear this really exotic name, either an Indian name or some sort of really exotic name as a meditation guru. And you were like, Jeff Goldstein. Well. I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah. All right. Wow, that was good. I had a lot of fun. You know, like...
You got to find ways to get into this state of joy and fun. And you got to just figure out how you get yourself in there. Like whether it's through being curious, open-minded, learning, like the same thing can be fun. The same thing can be suffering depending on how you look at it. Yeah. And I think the only real thing we can actually do that we have control over is to be aware of
of these things and to be aware of this kind of notion and this idea so that you're always constantly putting things back into perspective when you're feeling certain ways, right? You're constantly like, again, like something you always like to say, like zooming out a little bit and be like, okay, this is the state, but this is not a fixed state of things. You know, this is not my identity. This is the environment I'm in right now. This is the circumstance I'm in right now, but that's right now. And
That will always change. Nothing stays the same forever. And just the only thing we have control over, we might not always have control over our environment and our circumstance, but we do have control over being kind of aware of this reality that we're living in, of this matrix, let's say, for example, that we live in, and understanding that we can't always internalize everything, you know? Absolutely. Absolutely.
I think you have, you know, I would say like in your resume of accomplishments this last year, not only have... That's a short list. Not only have you... That's on the post-it note. Not only have you produced what I think is a pretty cool podcast, you've also developed Joe Rogan-esque hosting skills. Yeah.
And a lot of what you said today reminds me of some of the top meditation experts. I think very soon we're going to have the Honest Drink meditation channel. Oh, wow. Wow. You gave me a... You were stroking me right there. Yeah. Very nicely. You got a good voice. I would listen to you. Anyway, cheers, my brother. Cheers, man. It's always good to talk about these things. I mean, at the end of the day...
I think a lot of what we talk about, you know, some people might be like, eh, whatever, this is bullshit, you know? But the point is like, the point is to talk about it. The point is to always try to practice self-reflection in a way where at least you're having this conversation, if not only with yourself, but other friends. And not everything is going to be like this game changing, profound thing. Sometimes they might be, but idea is to always constantly do it. It's like a habit, right? Yeah.
And, you know, of the many things that we try to get across on this show, I think that is one of them. So that's definitely something I think I've picked up this year that I've grown from this year.
is a lot more self-reflection and in a healthy way where it's not, I'm not just like kind of always coming down on myself where I'm not always just like kind of abusing myself with the self-reflection, but it's almost this kind of, what do they call it? The kind of Zen, like what's that term? What's that field of like philosophy where it's like stoicism, stoicism, where it's like,
you kind of remove yourself from everything that's happening a little bit. You create a little bit of distance. And when you create that distance, you're like, oh, okay, I see what's going on here. Okay, it's not that bad.
There, you know, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. There are ways I can get out of this. And you create that distance where all of a sudden, not everything is so life or death, so dire, where it's like this, always this impending doom and more, you know? Absolutely. And you gain a little bit of peace. You gain a little bit of breathing room. And that little bit of breathing room, just that little bit can actually make the difference in changing your situation or not.
the world i'm gonna end this i'm gonna mic drop we keep trying to one up each other with the outro like we were supposed to end this five minutes ago we keep trying to get the last word so that just shows the level of it actually shows the level of talent okay i'm gonna try to mic drop this one okay okay usually like when the guests come on i just mic drop and our guests are just like okay yeah that's why you're the host and i'm the guest right but um
I'm going to mic drop here, okay? All right, do it. If it's good. If it's not good enough, you come back. But our readers, our listeners can judge. The world is an incredibly beautiful and profound place. And we all need to keep our eyes and senses open to catch these incredible moments.
And, you know, we need to share, right? Our role with each other is to catch these moments, share these moments, talk about these moments, because that world is just a beautiful and profound place. I don't know if that's mic drop quality standard. I mean, it's good.
All right, let's keep doing this. All right, Herbie Hancock. No, because here's my biggest issue with that. Here's Herbie Hancock. Here's my biggest issue with that is that I don't think we can say the world is a beautiful place from everyone's perspective. You know, there are a lot of people who get dealt a really shitty hand in this life. And from their perspective, it would be very hard to be like, this is a beautiful place. Maybe, right? Yeah.
Because, I mean, I can't speak for you. I'm coming from a very privileged perspective where, hey, man, life is beautiful. Enjoy it, right? Positivity. Here we go. But that's me. I'm sure there's a lot of other people out there that would vehemently disagree with me, right? So, I mean, I just think we need to kind of think about that. But it doesn't mean that what we're saying today doesn't apply because it all applies, right?
Right. You can be in a really shitty situation, but it's about how it's like, OK, fine. You're in a really shitty situation. You got dealt a really, really shitty hand in life. OK, but what? You're just going to just kill yourself and that's the end. Well, you can if you want to. But most of us don't. So, OK, how do you go about living and making the best out of that shitty situation is directly on how you internalize things and your mindset about how you kind of view life.
view not only yourself but the environment you're in and how you kind of create that distance like we say I guess I'm not trying to one up you right now well said I'm not trying I swear I'm not trying to one up you I'm just trying to I'm thinking about what you just said you know absolutely no I agree um
When I said that, I was hoping I could dupe you into it. I was hoping that I could have... It wasn't that profound. This is the honest drink, motherfucker. I know. I thought it was strong. I thought it was strong. Okay. But I think you're right, and I want to support what you're saying, but I still want a mic drop based on what you're saying. I want you to mic drop. All right. I'm rooting for you. Okay. Have you heard of Viktor Frankl? No. Viktor Frankl...
one of the most well-read books of all time. He survived the Holocaust and all kinds of evils, and he lived to a very late, kind of advanced age. He wrote one of the most famous books of all time called Man's Search for Meaning. You might have heard of it. And, I mean, he went through stuff that, like, no ordinary people don't go through, right? And he was lucky, and he survived, and he survived with his values and his beliefs alive.
it's an amazing work. It's an amazing work. Like it's, you know, like Anne Frank's diary, right? But this is another one. And he talks about like all the suffering and like, I mean, he saw death in the face. Like everyone died, his entire family, like everyone, death, not just death, torture, suffering through the Holocaust. I was just looking through my notes. I think I can mic drop this one. So he says, forces beyond your control,
can take away everything you possess except one thing, your freedom to choose how you will respond to the situation. You cannot control what happens in your life to you, but you can always control what you will feel and do about what happens to you. I found that very profound. Mike has been dropped. Cheers. Cheers. I know you got a dinner to go to, so it's okay. Anyway...
Got anything else? Got any more mics to drop? No. Mics to drop? No, Dr. Yang. Okay. Then we'll end it here, folks. That was a good one. I liked that. I enjoyed talking to you. I do, too. This is one of the rare moments I actually enjoy talking to you. I know. It's crazy. It's really crazy. Anyway, folks, we love you. That's it for today. I'm Justin. I'm Eric. All right, guys. Peace. Bye. Bye.
I love you.