#52. Lights Camera Action!
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What's up, everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. You can always reach us at thehonestdrink at gmail.com. And of course, you know what to do. Go ahead, rate, comment, and subscribe. Now, today, Howie, Eric, and I, we talk about some of the new popular films and TV shows that are out right now. And as it relates to entertainment, we talk about quality and standards and our own biases when it comes to, let's say, American TV shows versus Chinese TV shows.

The conversation starts light, but just gets deeper and deeper where we end up exposing our own cultural biases and the difference between subjective standards versus objective standards. If you're looking for some great new TV shows and films to watch, we name a lot of good ones. And if you're planning on watching the big new movie that's out right now called Tenet, definitely listen to something that Howie has to say in this episode before you do, because it just might make or break your experience with the movie.

Anyway, hope you guys enjoy. And without further ado, here we go.

Clap, clap. Clap, clap. That's all we do. Cheers.

Cheers. Cheers. I mean, at least for me, it's been a while since we've sat down. Well, yeah, it's been a while since all three of us have sat down. Cheers, man. Cheers. It is refreshing. Is this sake or what is this? I think it's sake. Do any of us actually know what we're drinking? Saojiu. Enjoy its polished, refreshing flavor and its pure crystal clarity.

Wait, so Japanese have their own version of soju. Was that just sake then? I think it's sake. I think it's sake. Can you read this? It's like we have no idea what we're drinking. Is this like soju? Is that what it says? Yeah. Oh, soju. Japanese soju. So Japanese soju. Which is sake. Which is sake. Which is sake. Is it? I think so. All right.

Yeah, so how you guys been, man? I haven't actually spoken to you guys in quite a while, actually. Like literally, we haven't even spoken. No, no, we haven't. I mean, I was on a big little run work-wise where I was in Beijing as well and also in Shanghai. La-di-da. Mr. Fancy Pants. Very fancy. Very fancy. Yeah. Yeah.

So, soju. Oh, no. Are you still looking that up? Yeah. I thought we're past that. Yeah. It's a distilled beverage distilled from rice, barley, buckwheat, some other things. The difference is that it's weaker than baijiu, but stronger than sake. That's why. So, it's actually, it's not sake. No, it's not sake. So, Japanese soju is its own thing? Yep.

That's right. And it has its own character. So the Sao and Sao Zhou is the same character? No. Yeah. But the second word looks different than the Chinese one. I bet there are some people that are listening right now that actually know and they're like pulling their hair out right now. Leave a comment. Leave a comment if you know what...

This is about... It's Ichiko in English. I-I-C-H-I-K-O. Yeah. The Chinese way of writing Saojo with the word like Joe, like the actual Chinese kanji, is considered archaic and obsolete in modern Japanese, which uses this other word, and both words mean liquor. All right. Okay. I have no idea what that is, but anyway. Anyway, it is good to see you guys again. I'm glad that you guys are so...

Just warm and, you know, and you just embrace. We embrace each other after a few weeks of not seeing each other. Yeah.

The sarcasm. Yeah, well, we haven't really ripped on each other in a while just because we haven't spoken to each other. So we got to get that in, you know? I know. We got to get that in. Howie, you've seen Umbrella Academy, right? Yeah, I watched season one and two. Basically, you guys are all fucking Diego's. Have you seen it? Fucking Diego's. Just like, you guys are fucking Diego's. Don't tell me what happens. I haven't finished season two yet. I'm like one episode away from the finale of season two.

Oh, okay. Yeah. So guess who's also starting to watch Umbrella Academy and gotten hooked? Ann. Yeah. Oh, we have a special guest in the house. We do. We have someone in the stands in the peanut gallery over there. Ann, welcome. Welcome back to China. From exile. Yeah. Welcome back to China. Welcome back. For two weeks. Okay, good.

Good. Yeah. Good. We're safe. Don't worry, Justin. I was about to kick you out. It's okay. We can goody together. All four of us. We love each other. What's been going on with you guys? When was the last time we met? A couple weeks. August 14th. So three weeks ago. Shit. Feels like forever. Yeah.

Wait, so you just had a run of like a really busy work. Yeah, yeah. Couple weeks. Like three shoots from that time to now. So are you like, is it pretty much done now or? With those shoots are done, but now I just got booked again like yesterday with two more projects. So, and it's all in this month. So now I'm starting tomorrow running again. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So you're making it rain. Mr. Money Bucks over here. Trying to make a snow. Yeah. Yeah.

How does that work? How does what work? Taking on projects. Like, how does that... Like, at what point is it enough? And at what point is it too much? And at what point is it not enough? Well, I mean, I will reject it if I literally cannot humanly possibly make it happen. But if it just means me putting in more effort and getting the work done, then...

I will do it. Or if it's a project that is so far away from anything I'm interested in, then I will also say no. But if it's interesting enough, then I will say yes. But that's kind of loose criteria. It is. Given your stature as a director and your background and experience, right? You're not just like some kind of rookie coming in. You're at least like a second year. Ah, rookie. Second year. Third year, you know.

No, yeah. If it's like a shitty job, I'm not going to take it. I mean, if it's like really... You have standards? What qualifies as a shitty job? Okay. Do you have any examples of shitty jobs or projects you've turned down that were willing to pay good money? Yeah. But it just didn't meet your standard quality? Well, okay. So there are times... Because I get a creative first, right? So usually I'll look at the creative and...

if it's what we call in Chinese, like, 硬广, right? Which is like one of those hard sell commercials, you know? 硬, like hard. 广 is like 广告. So the difference between 硬广 is like, so you have like brand kind of stuff where it's just more about like brand culture, brand identity. It's not like a hard sell on a specific product, right? And then you have some are just like, buy this shoe or buy this. Yeah, the perfect example is if it's just like a perfect 15 second commercial or a 30 second commercial and that's it.

and it's like very product based and it's like in your face that's in guang and like a bag of potato chips like buy this bag of potato chips that there's like no room for creativity and that's yeah I'll turn those down that's the shit we normally see on TV right yeah yeah I mean that's the bread and butter for a lot of directors though because those there are a lot of those type of

and those type of directors tend to be even more busy than I am. And they just, because they're a little bit more brainless and it's just like, just go, go, go, make your money. What about that rival dude that rolls up in his like, his exotic race car? I mean, other directors, they... Is he in Guang? No, no, they do big, like brand stuff and...

So you're more into like brand storytelling kind of projects. I'm more into that, yeah. Those kind of commercials. I mean, I've done a few of like those, you know, 15 seconds or whatever. I just don't have a lot of those and I try to stay away from them. There's no story to it. And people won't come to me for those anyway in general unless like you really don't know me. He just throws it in their face. Because that's just not what you're known for. Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with that. Can you imagine? Like they stick out a script. He just like he slaps it down. He slaps it down. He's like...

It's like, get that shit out of my face. Yeah. I would love to see that. But then he's like, how much? He's like, one million, two million. Well, okay, let's be honest here. That's another criteria. It's like, am I getting my full rate or am I going to be able to flex my creative muscles? That's sort of... Well, look, everyone has a price, right? Everyone has a price. So how do you balance...

Because you work in a creative field, you have a creative job, and I know you personally, you take creative experiences and challenges very seriously on a personal level. So how do you really balance that between like, if someone just offers you like a big budget, good amount of cash, but like this project has like no, it doesn't meet any of those standards you're talking about, but it's a really good paying gig. Like, so how do you balance that? Like from the money with the creativity? Yeah.

I mean, if I'm not booked and I'm available, like in that time period, because there's a time period that you need to be available to do your job, then I don't see if there's any reason for me to reject it. I'm not at the point right now where I'm like, you know, I'm just chill. I'm just going to reject everything until that perfect one comes, you know? Yeah.

i rarely see those to begin with and then it's really hard to win those to be you know what i mean it's it's not like they come to me and like the job is on a plate you know what i mean it's like oh you have a platter you stopped a bit for yeah they start you still it's still a bit you know even it's a shitty one it's still a bit you know i just i just let them know am i available or am i interested you know and you know in this in this type of you know work and my level right now it's not like i'm getting booked on every single bid

So I'm used to not winning the bids. You know what I mean? And even if it's a shitty one or the worst ones are the ones that I really want and I don't get those. So it's sort of like...

It just happens to be that this past month and this month now, I've been winning a lot. And so it's just kind of like, surprisingly, I'm like, oh, shit. Literally, that's my reaction. Oh, shit. I won that? Okay. You know what I mean? Yeah. And then next thing you know, I'm like, oh, fuck. Okay. All right. I'm responsible now. I got to make it happen. Well, that's awesome. That's pretty cool. Well, in the beginning, did you have to really...

Was it hard to overcome rejection? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. In the beginning, yeah. You got to have a thick skin, man. Yeah? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Did it get you down a lot? Sure. Of course. Especially if I had to put in the effort of making a treatment, which is like the creative from my perspective of how to make it happen. I got to put in the effort of envisioning the whole project, how I would do it, so the client can understand and give a reason to pick me.

So when I put in those kind of efforts, because they take time, and I'm not one of those guys that just half-ass. I mean, I go all in when I make a treatment. And so, yeah, I put a lot of effort into it. And when I don't win those, especially if I really like it, it's like a knife in the heart. Because I care. I actually care if I get a good project or not. I'm not here just to make money. It's fun for me to be on shoots. It's fun for me to do this work. Okay. Yeah.

So what is the next step in terms of... Like, you've made a lot of progress. Because you started this...

what, four years ago? 2017. Okay, three years ago. So that's pretty, I mean, relatively short. I mean, you had a, you know, a great career in some related areas, right? But this is going back to like your roots and your passion of what you really wanted to do. So where, like, where does three years sit in terms of your expectations? Because like, I think you've done some really great work. We've seen some of the stuff you've done. At the same time, to really elevate yourself where it's kind of like everyone's chasing you and like,

You get to a point where maybe you don't even have to do a treatment because you're so famous. No, you always have to do a treatment. You always have to do a treatment. Yeah, because they still have to express how you're going to do it. But maybe it's just like...

Put it this way. In the Chinese market, you don't always have to do a treatment. For example, this past month, I got booked on one project where I did the treatment. The other three were straight bookings. So they're just like, okay, they saw my work. We want him. The treatment ones tend to be more global brands or like...

Certain brands will require you to do a treatment. So, for example, the one I recently got booked on is a cell phone brand, electronics brand, and they always have to have a treatment. And so I created the treatment and I went off of that.

What about, like, films, though, like in Hollywood? Like, does a guy like Christopher Nolan have to, like, do a treatment before he gets signed on to do, like, a big blockbuster movie? Well, it's different, right? Because Nolan is one of the co-writers of his own films, right? Okay. And so he comes in with a script with his team, you know, and the producer finds... It's like backwards. Yeah. So he's actually, like, in the producer's seat as well, kind of. Sort of. Well, he has a producing team. You know, his wife's a producer. So...

I mean, that's one side. And then you have directors that don't write, that directly get hired based off of, are they suitable for the script? And in that case, it's less about writing a treatment.

Because a lot of times when you're writing a treatment, for example, for a film, it's trying to get funds or trying to get like the key team members to be on board to create it, you know? So it's like you'll create a treatment or like a proposal, right, for the story and outline with some visuals, your vision, stuff like that to get financial backing.

And then so be like, okay, that's a good idea. You have good track record. This is a great story. Write it, you know, let's make it. So it's like a pitch. Yeah. It's like a pitch. Yeah. So, well, okay. Like let's digress for one second, but I did want to go back to this topic, like to understand the career arc of like a director, like what are the key milestones, right? At what point do you have to like, just stop worrying about rejection, but let's pivot for one moment because you mentioned, mentioned Christopher Nolan, um,

Tenet. Right? Did you guys watch it already? I haven't seen it yet. I didn't even know it was coming out. And I vaguely understand the premise. But what we did do last week was a couple of friends super into Nolan movies. We went back and saw Inception in the theater, which was pretty fucking good. It was like, I still had to go back to fucking Wikipedia and figure out what the fuck. Inception is so fucking good. Yeah, so good. So, Howie, I want to hear your perspective

perspective point of view on Nolan and Tenet. You saw Tenet, right? Yeah, I saw it. Can you talk about it without giving away any... That's really easy for me to talk about without giving anything away because I didn't understand it. And there's a very good reason for that. A logical reason why I didn't understand it. So I went to watch on IMAX, right? And so...

Was it in Chinese? No, it's in English. But the problem is, and at first I thought it was me. I thought like I had ear problems or something like that. Because I'm watching it, I can barely hear the dialogue.

So they're talking, and it's like, oh, this time thing is the future. And I'm like, what? What was that? They're hyperventilating. And they're like, the machines. I'm like, what the fuck are they saying? Because the background noise is covering the dialogue. Because all I hear in the back is like...

Like the music is so good. It's like so strong. And the sound design is... Is it on Zimmer? No, it's a different guy. So it's like the sound design and blah, blah, blah. Non-stop pounding your face. And the dialogue is drowned out. And I thought... I was like, wait, is it me? I was right under the speaker. I'm like, I think I'm just too close to the speaker. So I remember I talked to Vivi. I'm like, did you understand it? And she's like, I think I understood more than you. I'm like, yeah, you have subtitles. You're reading the subtitles. And I'm like, yeah, I'm like half the time I'm reading the subtitles, but I can't read fast enough. So I'm like...

It's just a shit show in my brain. And then I'm like, I have to go watch it again, not IMAX. I'm going to watch it in the middle, a good seating with more chill. So it's only the IMAX version that has that problem? Yeah. So then today, because I watched it last night. So today I did a search and I was looking up like Tenet, Explained and stuff like that. And then basically, if you look at all the comments...

90% 80 to 90% of the comments mentioned this they're like is it me? Like I couldn't understand what they're saying like was he did he purposely sound mix is so high that you can't hear it You know, so you have to watch it again and blah blah blah all this stuff and there's so it's not me So it really was a problem. Was it done purposely or was it an accident?

Nobody knows. I mean, it's not officially explained. It's just people's reactions. It has to be an accident, right? Like, who would make a movie where you can't really understand the dialogue? I don't know. But I'm not joking. I really didn't understand half the shit that they were saying. Well, it's not that you didn't understand. You couldn't even hear the dialogue. I couldn't hear it clearly. And they're using words like scientific terminology to explain things. And I'm like, what? That's crazy. Like, on such a big movie with such like a blockbuster team, like, how does a mistake like that...

that jeopardizes the whole movie but it may get make it to final cut it may not be a mistake because even interstellar uh this was i mean nolan said it on in an interview i forgot which scene it was but in the one scene interstellar i think

And he was going through some like warp tunnel or worm tunnel wormhole thing. And like he was saying something and the music was so loud, you couldn't really hear it. And he was on film saying, yeah, I did that on purpose because you're not meant to know what he's saying.

Well, because he's traveling through a wormhole. Yeah, yeah. He's going through a black hole. So I can expect that as a creative choice for a particular scene because there's kind of a physical reason, right? If you're trying to apply the laws of physics to, theoretical laws of physics to it. Yeah, the dialogue is secondary to the scene. But if you can't understand the whole movie. And the whole movie is based on Earth. Like you're on Earth, you're not going through a black hole. It's just like people on the street. Well, you need to watch it because it's been out there.

You know, it's a little bit of like... So it's about like time inversion, right? Yeah. And then, and plus it's like visually it's... See, you want to know and then you're like, I don't want to know. No, no, no, because they say that in the trailer. That's like, that's okay. That's in the trailer. But let me ask you, did the audio challenges detract from your experience? I mean, visually, it was still spectacular to watch, but...

It was just a lot of head scratching. Yeah, if you can't understand the dialogue, that has to detract. That's ultimate hubris, right? That's where it's like a band. They're just so fucking popular that they just come out with some fucked up thing. And they're so arrogant. But if it was purposeful, then the same problem would be in the non-IMAX version too. But you're saying it's only in the IMAX version. I don't know. This is what the comments have been saying, that when they went to a normal theater...

They could hear it. And it was like, okay. Yeah. It was like the IMAX mix. So it must be a mistake then. Yeah. Because why would you make like the... If it only applies to the IMAX version. Yeah. The guy that was giving his like tenant explain, he watched like five times or something like that. Like over and over and over again. IMAX, non-IMAX. He said that there was a difference. Like the IMAX one was just so loud and like extreme. But then you watch it and from a regular theater, it's like...

It's not as extreme. I think it's just because of the speaker system, the way it's set up, the Dolby surround sound, you know, that kind of stuff. Are IMAX... So IMAX are shot on different cameras than normal film cameras? Yeah, they're IMAX cameras. So if there's two different versions, does that mean that while they're shooting, they have like double the amount of cameras, like one set of cameras just for IMAX version? No, they can just crush it. I mean, it's just frame sizes and information.

They should reframe it. But could they also boost it up from my knowledge? First tenant audiences describe inaudible dialogue. Yeah.

That sucks. Yeah. So that was the big thing that upset me after leaving. But because I'm a fan and because the topic, the nature of the story is interesting enough for me that I kind of was able to look past it and be like, I want to watch it again. And hopefully the next time I can really concentrate on what they're saying and get into it. Because this type of film is not a one-watcher. I mean, even if you heard the whole dialogue, I can guarantee you you're going to miss things. Because there's a lot of shit happening between like...

Like multiple timelines happening at once on screen. Literally at once. Okay. There's also fan theories going on that it's basically like a sequel for Inception. There's a lot of fan theories going on that it's in the same universe. And it's part of a bigger story that has to do with Inception. Yeah.

I don't see that. I don't see that. No, watch it on YouTube. There's like, they break it down, you know, the breakdowns, like the theory kind of break. But there's some great theories on YouTube that, that I saw about the story. If after you watch tenant, there's some fan theories that came out that are like, Whoa, that would be crazy. Yeah. It's like really detailed stuff about the story that if Nolan and his writing team really went that way. And that was their big idea that they were going for it. Fucking hats down. Like, you know what I mean? Like, damn, that's some deep shit.

Yeah. So, yeah, I definitely think you should watch it. What does it rank on the Nolan, like, best list? For me? Yeah. I don't know. I'll have to watch it again. Maybe that's, like, the ultimate strategy. It's like you release it and no one can understand it. You get, like, double the fucking box office release. Right? And the sound mix, they have, like, an A and a B version, so they release it for the first month. Everyone listens to it again. Yeah. But, I mean, I really, really liked Interstellar, to be honest with you. More than Inception? Yeah.

Oh, I mean, I really, I really like Inception too. See, what does that say about Christopher Nolan? Like, that's why he's my favorite film director out right now. Like he, every single one of his movies to me is just like, like he's never made a bad movie. Yeah.

Like, they're all really good. I think what Christopher Nolan is, is a very exciting Hollywood filmmaker that creates films that are, you know, high adrenaline or if not high adrenaline, then high thought. You know what I mean? Both. Like, his genius is he mixes in the both. Yeah. I like that. It is fun. Yeah. I've had... It's funny because, you know, we've talked about this before in the past where I have...

you know, artsy friends, you know, they're like, Oh, Nolan, are you kidding me? Cause he's just, cause he's too mainstream. Yeah. Or, or because he, he, he does shit just to do shit. You know what I mean? But then for me, I'm like, I look, I can look past that. You know what I mean? I'm like, well, I totally enjoy watching his films and,

At the end of the day, why do I want to make a film is not to masturbate. I make a film because I want to entertain people. I want to affect people. I want people to react a certain way. So whether that's emotional where they can reflect on themselves, on their history and their stories, or if it's action-packed and it's adrenaline and they're excited and they feel great after watching it. I mean, to me, those are both...

reasons to make a film, you know? Yeah. Yeah. But to me, like Nolan has both in all his movies, like every, like all his movies are pretty action packed and very visually entertaining, but at the same time, they're all kind of like complex storytelling, right? Like which, which one of his movies wasn't a good storytelling movie. I mean, they all were right. Like they all were inception interstellar, the dark night memento,

Well, they're definitely from a layperson's perspective, they're engaging and entertaining. You have to say that. And he's done some popular stuff like the Batman stuff as well. But there's stuff where if you're a normal person, you don't really get the whole movie, you'd still want to watch it. At the same time, they're really deep.

there's this like metaphysical angle to it where then you can start talking about it and then you it spawns a lot of like alternative theories and and you know and a whole industry on its own you know so I think he does a good job but this whole audio thing you know I don't know yeah I don't know so I'm gonna I'm gonna watch it and then now that you tell me that I'm not gonna watch the IMAX version I'll just watch the normal version yeah yeah we'll see

But Inception, re-watching it, it's visually spectacular. I have it on DVD, Blu-ray DVD. That's how much I liked it. I bought it on Blu-ray DVD years back. It's incredible. It's incredible. It's fucking incredible. I think it's worth a revisit. I haven't seen it in a while. In the theater too. Because at first I was like, it doesn't matter. It's more of a cerebral thing. You think through it. But once I re-watched it,

It's actually visually stunning because there's so many different layers, right? Every dream layer is a different world. And each of those worlds, like, it's like he made five movies in one. If you think about the production value, he has like five different movies in one. That's true. Actually, I never thought about it that way. Yeah, because he creates like all these different worlds. Every dream layer is a different world. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And you know what's interesting? Ellen Page, who is actually Vanya. In Umbrella Academy. God, I hate Vanya so much.

much like that is one character i want to just i hate luther he's completely luther's an idiot he's like the most useless person like he doesn't even have a superpower he's not even that strong he gets beat up by no more human beings which one is is it hazel or cha-cha uh hazel hazel kicks his ass yeah hazel so that's what i didn't understand about umbrella academy that really threw me off and that was part of that was in season one when they had that fight right yeah

It was like... When the chandelier came down on him. Yeah, so Luther, his superpower is supposed to be like super strength, right? He's like this huge, like hulking guy, right? So you're like, okay, he's going to show his power sooner or later. He's holding it back right now. He's holding it back, right? He doesn't want to use it. But then like two seasons in and he's getting beat up by like normal human beings. Yeah. He's just a thug.

It was hard to get through season one. I thought season one was pretty, like, really boring. Yeah. But then season two, it starts bigger. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. It is interesting. I would say, like, it's not the most entertaining series compared to, like, Westworld compared to Game of Thrones. It's not the most stunning. The acting isn't the best. But it is creative. Like, the idea, the concept of combining, like, a little bit of Men in Black, a little bit of, like, superheroes...

And then like the infighting between the characters. It is unique in its own way, I think. Can I recommend another series? I just downloaded season two. I haven't watched it yet, but I really enjoyed season one. The Boys. The Boys is awesome. Yeah. Really? Season two is out. Yeah. I'm very excited to watch season two. The Boys with the Z or an S? I think it's S. Yeah. Basically, it's about like the dark side of superheroes, right? So it's like, it's a superhero show, right?

But like the superheroes are the villains. You know? Yeah. Like if the Avengers were bad guys. Yeah. Pretty much. Like if they were susceptible to like human like greed and lust and all the sins, you know, just like they were human beings. They just had superpowers. They would get corrupted. Right. So it's like, it's about the same thing. Oh, so it's really good show. It's a graphic show too. Yeah.

That hasn't been explored, right? Because you have some Deadpool, you have Venom, you have some things where it's kind of like these guys are generally good, but then it shows like a non sort of idealistic heroic angle. But like to show the darker, the true side of humans, the sinister side of humans, it's not really been explored that much. Exactly. Yeah, like...

Like, you have these guys that are, like, sexual miscreants. Yeah. You know, but yet they're fucking Superman. Yeah, exactly. So, it's like, it's really interesting because it's, like, it's really dark. You're like, yeah. But then it's like, oh, damn. It's sordid. Why do we think superheroes are always going to be, like, these, like, benevolent, you know, like, people? You know, like, they're not...

It reminds me, the analogy is some of those miniseries around like ancient monarchs, like European monarchs or like Chinese, like it's very political and you see the dark side of like people that have a lot of power. Lovecraft Country.

New HBO show. You said it was like incredible, right? Pretty incredible. Lovecraft Country. Lovecraft Country. You haven't heard of it? It's horror films. It's like the new big show. I haven't. It's like the new... Because it's an HBO thing. Is HBO not on Netflix? No, it's HBO. Lovecraft Country. Lovecraft Country. You mentioned it last time. So Lovecraft Country, basically, it's like... How would I explain it?

It's kind of like, okay, so Jordan Peele is one of the people behind it as well. So you know the movie Get Out, right? So it's like, imagine Get Out had a baby with Stranger Things, right? The show Stranger Things. That's what kind of Lovecraft is about. Okay. So it's like really weird. It's really fantastical.

But it also has, like, that kind of, you know, like, grounded, like, racial undertones. It's, like, thriller. It's scary. But then, you know, it's action-packed as well. It's really... And it's really weird. It's really, like, right now, like, no one really knows what's going on yet. But it's out there. It's, like, still season one, right? Season one, only the second episode so far. Okay. Only two episodes out. Okay. Yeah.

So, we got Lovecraft Country, Umbrella Academy, and The Boys. Yeah, this whole podcast turned into like movies and shows. We've never done that before. No. Yeah, well, the listeners out there, if you're looking to check out some more like superhero type of stuff or outside the... New content. Just new content, new shows. Yeah. But I would say like the genre, they're not like drama series that are based off of real life, right? It's just a little bit more fantastical and... You know, like...

These shows obviously were made way before the pandemic, I'm guessing, right? Because we're in the second season. Yes.

but maybe like there's so many shows and their popularity reflects like the people just want to escape a little bit because like imagine you're trying to watch some you know office show it's just like you're gonna watch it and you're just gonna like you're gonna just lose interest because you're just like life is you know so much tougher right and you're watching this stupid sitcoms maybe people are trying to just get away completely and be like okay like the world is really fucked up right now so I need to watch something that is even more fucked up yeah

Do you think there's going to be a drought of content next year because a lot of people can't shoot this year? So like next year or the year after, there's going to be like this drought of content coming out? Well, production is back on. Is it? Like full scale? Yeah, there's a new set of rules that the production needs to abide by. So they have like... I mean, I'm not there, so I don't know exactly, but I heard a little bit about it. Whereas like production teams are separated into like pods. They call it pods or something like that. And...

So, like, one role, like, say, art department, handling props, handling set design, they're split into two groups. Like, one group is behind the scenes. The other group is with talent and, like, on set. And they cannot cross, you know, because in case of cross exposure. Contamination. Yeah, contamination exposure. Yeah. It's all this, like, weird shit like that. Everyone needs to be, like, really far apart from each other and wearing masks. Yeah. Well, I want to...

I want to bring something up while we're on the topic and we don't have to continue this topic of shows. We can pivot to something else. But while we're on this topic, because we've been talking about all, you know, American shows and movies, right? I have to admit something to you. I watched all of the Chinese show that's been, that was popular recently. It's called San Si Er Yi. Right? Only 30? It's like hugely popular, right? In Liu Xing, right? Did you watch it all, Anne? Yeah.

All of it. I watched all of it too because I had to watch it with Jessica. You had to. You had to. No, I literally had to. Blame it on Jessica. Because she took over the TV and I had to sit there and watch it with her. What's it called? Censored. You guys haven't heard of this? Censored. How? I thought I was the one that was not connected with Chinese TV shows. It's like the new big show. Yeah, I haven't watched it. None of you have watched it.

And then? Okay, so we can't even really have a conversation about it. Well, okay. Well, it's funny you say that because I also recently, right before this August 14th thing, watched with Vivi a whole TV series as well in Chinese. And I really enjoyed it. Which one? Jing Mi's Jiao Luo. Jiao Luo. Yeah, I saw that too. Yeah, I saw all of it. Did you like it? Look, I appreciated it. I thought it was the best...

The best Chinese TV show I have seen so far in terms of its storytelling and its acting was pretty good. So I really appreciate it. I thought it was a lot of progress made. But I'm going to say something that's going to be maybe a little controversial and unpopular right now. But that's just how I honestly feel. I just feel like because when you're held to the American Hollywood standard and film and TV show standard now,

Like it's obviously it's cream of the crop because it's fucking Hollywood, right? It's like the best of the best. So when you get used to that kind of standard of production, of acting, of storytelling, everything, cinematography, and then you watch like a lot of Chinese TV shows, it just doesn't meet that criteria. Not yet, even though it's getting a lot better recently.

Um, so I have like this built in kind of like, ugh, like I just can't, yeah, it's, it's a bias, but it's, but I think it's a real bias. Like, like it truly objectively, they are two standards, right? So it's hard for me to buy in, especially when I just feel like some of the acting and especially some of the storytelling just isn't there yet. So it's a little bit unbelievable to me and I just can't, I can't,

buy in completely. So it's not that I hate the shows. It's just that there is a part of me that is just like, like I see these loopholes and I see these holes in the storytelling. I'm like, I can't let it go. It's like a pet peeve. Can I ask you something? Because while watching with Vivi, this is one thing that she got really pissed at me about because yeah, I said I enjoyed it because I did. Um,

But exactly what you said. Because I'm watching it and then something will happen. I'll be like, my hands go up in the middle of watching. I'll be like, what the fuck? What? How could that happen? Come on. Come on. You can't fucking tie that up a little bit better? Yeah. It's like lazy storytelling. Yeah, exactly what I said. Lazy storytelling. You're fucking lazy. But you know what's ridiculous? Is this sense that I'm looking at it online.

none of these girls are even like they're like they're like way older than 30 they're way older than 30 yeah that's BS so like right from the get go it's like BS you know what I mean because like you can tell way older than 30 and anyways like Vivi, Jessica and Anne are like younger like you know they should be doing it these girls are like they should be like yeah

But yeah, so like when watching, because I'm also comparing to like these shows that we watch from Netflix and whatever, right? Because what, not 30, not 30, but the other one, right? They actually hired a, like a showrunner slash script supervisor, right?

from America who's done... And that's what their big selling point. Like, we brought over somebody from Hollywood. But then I looked him up on IMDb. It's kind of bullshit. He's not like... He's not one of the top dogs. You know what I mean? He's done like... IMDb. Mediocre shit. He's like B movies. Let's look up Howie on IMDb. Is he one of the top dogs? Yeah. I'm not a top dog. Hence, I'm not doing that. So anyway...

Yeah. So he's like the showrunner or whatever. And so, yeah, you can see like the standard is much higher than before, which is why I'm like, I'm supporting like these shows because I'm like, great, you're getting better. You're getting better. The quality is getting better, but you still got a long way to go. Yeah.

Why do you guys need to hold China to this arbitrary standard? No, because I hold everything to that standard. So even when I watch the American shows, there are also moments if there's a hole. Like even with Umbrella Academy, I threw my hands up. I'm like, fucking Luther, this character. This is a terrible story writing character development. Terrible character development. So...

I hold all shows and films, no matter where they come from, to that same standard. But the standard is a Western standard. Exactly. The problem is the standard is very high, right? So I'm not saying it's right. I wish I could watch films just like and appreciate them.

Chinese TV shows just like a lot of people do here. And I'm trying to like, it's a personal thing for me. I'm trying to get better at it. I'm trying to like, whenever I watch a Chinese TV show, I'm trying to just like watch it with like a clean slate and not have these built in biases and standards.

but it's really hard because when you're used to one quality of standard, right? Like, it's like you going to restaurants. Like, you expect a certain level of service, but so when you go to somewhere that doesn't have that same level, it pisses you off too, you know what I mean? So it's like,

it's hard. Consciously, I know I shouldn't have it. Because you've been conditioned. But it's been conditioned. I don't think it's a bad thing. But it's not an unreal standard. It's not something I'm manufacturing. It is because there are two standards. I think it goes both ways. And I get it because I'm guilty of the same thing. Some of it's conditioning and some of it is we're conditioned to sort of accept this as the norm.

And that doesn't mean it's quality or not quality. There's probably certain elements where objectively, like, you know, you, you, you could say this is a higher production quality, right? So there's definitely some things you could put in that bucket. Then there's some things where you're just used to that norm. Here's an example.

So in Beijing, there's... I mentioned this hotel before, actually, on a previous show, because they had a really great Chinese restaurant there. But there's also a great Western restaurant. And the hotel, Rosewood Hotel, this hotel has been around probably about since 2016. Bistro B is the Western restaurant in there. It's really fantastic. A guy named Jared, he runs the kitchen there. I think he's probably still there. He used to, you know, kind of...

work in many us restaurants. He's American, um, worked in Michelin star. I mean like totally, you know, very, very legit guy. And when they, when they launched that hotel, like we went there, incredible food, right? I met him like last year or the year before. And I was in Beijing. I was on a business trip, um,

And we were just chatting and we were chatting about norms and about standards for Western food. And if you look at the menu, they've started adapting the menus. It's still Western food, but I was talking to him. It's like, he's like, yeah, we do cater for some of the, uh, the local palette. And so things might be a little bit sweeter, this and that, they source different things, you know? And so there was a time where I would view that as like subpar below quality. I would be like, that's not like authentic, uh,

And but what I realized was that quality versus what the norms are is two separate things. So the food is very, very high quality. And over time, I've accepted the fact that like what I grew up as the norms isn't necessarily like the best thing. And so you start getting then reconditioned certain things. And so the food starts tasting a little bit different. So we were at John George last week or the week before.

And it was awesome. It was incredible. I absolutely lived up to that one-star Michelin whatever standard. I hadn't been there in like 10 years. But I know that they've tailored a lot of the dishes to a local audience, right? And like 95% of the people there were local. So you see like these things shifting. So as the customer base, the demographics start shifting, it doesn't mean the standards lower or...

but the norms start changing. And so I think with the movie stuff, right? Yeah, certainly like a game of Thrones, like the production quality, there's certain aspects of just the technical film making. That's going to be a lot, lot, lot better, but there are probably some unconscious biases also working when we watch it. And we kind of just dismiss it in a way automatically because we're used to sort of different norms. So the question is like, whether it's architecture, um,

you know, food, movies, film, right? What are some of the areas where China's starting to elevate? And I think that's an interesting topic because 10 years ago, you couldn't even get a good burger to my Western palate. But now, the burgers are better, but maybe my

My way of judging a burger is also different than when it was 10 years ago. So my tastes are also evolving. I hear you. But I think we also need to like compare apples to apples because in your example, and I get you, it would be as like, it would be as if we were criticizing the content of Chinese shows, which we're not. The content is fine.

So if they wanted to tailor their content for a Chinese audience, I totally get that. It's a Chinese show. You should. I mean, it's Chinese people watching. You should tailor the content just like a Western restaurant might tailor their menu and what they might serve, right?

But we're talking about like real, like lazy storytelling is just lazy storytelling. There is no... It's like half frying a chicken. Yeah. It's like the chicken is half fried, but not. Exactly. It's like if you were, if there were like the cooks in the kitchen were like applying shitty cooking techniques to their food. Exactly. Like half cooking something. So serving something that shouldn't be raw, like still half raw. It's not the chicken. Yeah. It has nothing to do with our condition or biases. Like bad storytelling or lazy storytelling is just lazy storytelling. There are holes in it. And like...

A lot of people are guilty of this. I'm not just criticizing Chinese TV shows. There are a bunch of American TV shows that are also doing that too. And I hold them to the same standard. It's just that obviously because American Hollywood, they have a leg up. I mean, the industry has been around forever. Obviously, China is still progressing on that front. So it's natural for them to be a little bit behind.

on production, things like production value, storytelling, the talent pool, everything. So it's completely understandable. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be like this. All I'm saying is as a person who is watching TV show where I'm not trying to think of all that, I'm not trying to think of the larger context and historical context and everything around it. I'm just trying to be entertained, like purely entertained by what I'm watching. You notice these differences and

And it detracts from the enjoyment of the content a little bit when you kind of, you know, when you see a lot of holes in a story or you think that the story is just like lazy story writing, you know? Yeah. Because like even when we talk about, because Justin has challenged me before, like how he...

you know why don't you just write a script you know if you want to make a film write a script make a film you know let's do a tv series come on let's do a tv series come on let's do it and then my first response always is dude you know how hard it is to write a tv series you know how hard it is is like forget about one person or two people you need a fucking army to write a fucking tv series to the level of what we expect you know what i mean it's not a one person job and

And so, you know, with that in mind, it's a very hard thing. And going back to what you're saying, it's like that TV series we were just talking about, 神秘还是隐秘的角落? 隐秘的角落. It's like...

that to what I used to watch of TV show like episode or two here and there they've already like raised that bar by leaps and bounds it's a good show I'm not saying it's not a good show it's a good show I was entertained all the way I wanted to watch it I wanted to watch it especially the first scene or the first scene yeah the first scene in the first episode the pushing of the yeah I was like oh I was sold right from there I'm like oh shit because you don't see that kind of like

in your face kind of shit a lot with chinese tv shows when i saw that i'm like damn this is good this is exactly okay this is on a different level here but that's what i'm saying that's what i'm saying is that like that you but you can't just give a prize for getting better yeah right i'm not going to give you a fucking cookie just for getting better you know i want to see this continue i want to continue the progression keep going you know what i mean

I mean, I'm not saying that. I'm not saying this because I want to come in and make my own. I'm humble. I can't. You know what I mean? But like... Well, you're saying it as a fan because you want the Chinese film industry to get better. I want the Chinese film industry to shit on Hollywood. Yeah. You know what I mean? I would love that. I mean, I'm being kind of honest here. You know what I mean? Like, I want to see, you know, it grow, you know?

Hollywood's very nasty. You know what I mean? Yeah. So I'm not saying Chinese is healthy, you know, the film industry is healthy here, but either, but yeah,

Yeah, I wanna see it grow. I wanna see it get better. - I wanna see it grow too. All I see just from a selfish standpoint where, 'cause we talk about this on the show or we hint at this a lot on the show is like a lot of the brainwashing and stigmas in our minds and biases we have on a cultural and social level, like a lot of that comes from entertainment and media, right? Like we talked about, like when Steven was on the podcast, we talked about the Chinese male identity, right? Masculinity.

And how maybe Hollywood had a role in kind of shaping the way we as Westerners or living in America thought about the Chinese identity, things like that. So if China had its own Hollywood that kind of can shit on the American Hollywood, right? That was making the best content. That was making fucking killer content all the time. Had a great talent pool, best in the world content.

then they would be telling their stories, you know, from the Chinese angle. Yeah, from the globally, to a global audience, but from a Chinese angle where they can tell the Chinese story, which I would love, you know, I would love for that. But I'm going to be honest, there's a long way to go. It's a long way to go. There's this one article, not article, but video I watch. I forgot who the guy is, shit. I forgot who the guy is.

I forgot his name. I was just talking about this last night. But anyway, he was running CAA, which is Artist Management Company, right? The biggest one in Hollywood. Commercial Artist Agency or something like that. Basically, every single big director, actor is represented by CAA. Exactly. Including like Zhang Yimou in China. Yeah, they're like the agency. So he was like the GM or something like that. He was running it.

And so he was getting interviewed and he was, he has obviously an inside scoop between the West and the East and what's happening and stuff like that. And one of the questions was posed like, you know, how do you see, you know, Chinese film market and Hollywood film market, like working together? What are the differences? You know, like what do you see in the future? What's holding China back? That kind of stuff. Right.

And one thing he said that really, I thought was really, well, a couple of things he said that was really interesting. One of them was, well, firstly, the market is much more mature in America, right? You know, when you have all the different roles, whether you're a director, cinematographer, even props guy, right? Or like, you know, all the different departments, right?

They're all very mature in the sense of if you're that person, you probably were a film fan since you were young. You probably were working in different departments. You probably have exposure on this and you take pride in what you do. It's a mature market. In China, it's a little different. So, I mean, you don't work in the industry, so you maybe not know, but if I'm working on a shoot...

A lot of like the lighting team or whatever, they do it because it's their job. It's not because they're passionate about it. It's not because they were educated in this department. It's not like they're constantly studying. Well, it's not like they had aspirations to be in the film industry to begin with. Yeah, exactly. So right there, there's a big difference, right? Number two, that's why in China, the minute if you're a director and you have an ounce of talent, right? They get like...

it's like you get your ass kissed. You know, that's why like everyone on the set is like, doyent, doyent, doyent. Because like to be a doyent, like you have to be, like you're better than everybody on set.

But that's not the same in like Hollywood, like in the film market in America. It's like it's collaboration. You know what I mean? It's like if I'm a director shooting over there, I'm trusting my DP, I'm trusting my art department to be better than me. You know what I mean? By leaps and bounds. And then together, I'm just kind of like leading the vision and we work together to make this amazing piece, right? But here...

a lot of expectations are, oh, the director has to prove everything, you know, like the styling, the, you know, like all of a sudden the director's a stylist, you know what I mean? Like, you know, production design, you know, cinematography, lighting. 要过你的关。 Yeah, yeah. I'm talking about the movie industry, okay? This is what I've heard, you know.

So they come in and they're like, you know, hands on everything. And so when they go to Hollywood and collaborate, that's why they're saying like, you know, a lot of Chinese directors will never make it in Hollywood. It's because they're so used to like certain names. I'm not going to say who, but like they go to, they're here, they're like treated as kings. And then, you know, and then they go over to Hollywood and,

people don't care about them over there and they're like what the fuck is this shit you know what I mean or when collaborators collaborate together they're like this this this and this and they're like no I have my own vision on this you know if I'm a production designer or whatever right so that so the working the

The working relationship is very different. The mentality is very different. So there's a lot of combinations of why the whole China and America kind of collaboration moving forward may be difficult. Just because of the nature of the culture, the nature of the history of filmmaking, the way things are done, it's pretty different. So they put the director on a pedestal here. It's like the LeBron James, right? But then you go to a higher league and...

So like, it was like the LeBron James, like the CBA or something. Right. And he's like, and he's just, he thinks he's the shit. And then, and then he goes, you know, and then he goes into the NBA. Yeah. But that also happens. Right. I mean, like sort of, and you know, and, and any, um, realm,

Like, let's say like you were at Duke or North Carolina or something like that. You were the shit, right? And then you go to the NBA and they just shit on you, right? Or you were at football. I probably like, because basketball players, if you're like a top five draft pick, it's easier to make that transition. But NFL quarterbacks, right?

That is probably the biggest sort of gap. And like, you are like a god. You won the Heisman, right? And you can't even... You don't even get drafted. Right? So, NFL. But yeah, no, I... And the rookies get hazed. Oh, yeah. In the NBA, in the NFL, all the sports leagues, as rookies, when you go into that locker room of veterans and people who have been there for a while, you get hazed. You're like their assistant. You become the bitch. Yeah, you're the bitch. Yeah. No, I... You know, there's... I think...

like how you have you have some insider sort of like you're in the industry so you can really see like the level of sort of sophistication you know in the industry right and you you could relate it to sports it's like you know um you know nba versus like leagues outside of you know the u.s right so the other kind of parts are catching up right um i think at the same time then

Some of it is subjective as the audience, right? And so like, is there any reason why like a Chinese story is,

should be any less compelling or like Chinese people should be less compelling as storytellers and et cetera. But by that pure objective standard of like making a film by Hollywood standards and by definition, like, you know, countries like China, you know, they're not going to be there because we've defined it by Hollywood. Hollywood has become that standard.

but if that standard and how we perceive entertainment starts evolving, like you start seeing like fricking Billy Billy and tick tock and like, you know, and people start looking at things in much shorter timeframes. And so if the, if the standard of entertainment starts evolving in the future, then who knows where we're going to be taken. Right. And, and so I think that's probably the exciting piece. And I think the other thing is just,

you know a lot of this is subjective as well like certainly there's a lot of like basis for what our opinions are if the production value if the lighting is shit what I've noticed is a lot of the films made with low budgets the lighting just looks it just looks crappy right

But there are other biases that kind of creep in because we're sort of used to a certain norm. So it's interesting. We keep an open mind. But I think in the food industry, you start seeing things shifting here in China. Like in these first tier cities where it's just like my palate is changing, but also the standards are improving to the point where I'm like, fuck, man, I don't need to go back to the US to have a great whatever meal. Actually, going back to what you're saying about standards, right? I think another...

Interesting example would be Korean dramas, right? So Korean dramas are very popular, you know, at one time extremely popular here, and I think they still are. And they're very different than American dramas, you know, in the sense where they're overly sappy, you know. Every other scene is a crying scene, you know, it's overly emotional, exaggerated, right?

You know, and that's why you can, you know exactly if you're watching Korean drama, right? And that becomes a standard. And all of a sudden, and that's affected a lot of dramas in China now. You know, where because that was so popular that dramas are starting to become a little bit like Korean dramas, where it's a little bit more exaggerated. There's crying in every other scene. You know, there's a lot of screaming like, you know, like that kind of stuff. And right. Have you noticed that?

No? I feel like... You have to have noticed that. Because I haven't seen... I don't really watch any Korean dramas. So I don't know. But what I... You will be soon. What I have seen is, you know, there's a lot of big acting competition shows in China, right? Where they... It's the acting contest, right? Well, I don't know what the show is called, but it's like the voice. Yeah, right? Yeah.

And so they're trying to like, and then they have the acting in front of a panel of judges, like even people like Zanzi, they're like judges and they critique you after the scene. Right. These are like has been actors or like a little bit older now. And yeah, well they're like veteran actors, right. Respected people in the acting community here and they critique the scene and you know, it's like a competition. Right. Yeah. If you watch those kinds of shows, literally like every scene, every other scene,

like at least over 80% of the scenes are crying scenes. So I feel like it's like for the audience here, they feel like the more emotion, the more like outright emotion, right? The not subtle shit, like the more like in your face, crying, weeping, tragic story,

is like the hallmark of good acting, I feel. I feel like that's what the standard is here. Like if you're not like really just pouring your guts out, like crying, sobbing and screaming, then it's not like a really compelling scene, right? Because every scene on these contests are like really emotional crying scenes. You know what this is? This reminds me of a couple of things. So basically the norm, right, is a little bit different. So like...

I imagined like method acting in the U S and so it's almost like,

the more restrained minimal you are with your emotions, with your, you know, your facial expressions, et cetera. Like that's like the, the hallmark use the word hallmark of like a great actor. And so like the level of the standards are a little bit different. Right. And then, you know, these Korean dramas, like, you know, if you don't express your emotions like that, it's not good acting. So the norms are a little bit different. And like, is that subjective? Is that objective? But you can relate this to food, right?

So like if you go to like Chongqing or Chengdu, if it's not spicy, people will just like fucking spit it out. They'll vomit, right? They'll literally like vomit. They'll eat some Shanghai sweet food and they'll literally puke, right? Like projectile vomit. And so like, so it really goes back to this question of like what is the standard and how much of this is truly subjective and is there anything that's objective that

You know, because there's such a thing. I get you. Like the spicy stuff. Like literally, the three of us having grown up in the US, loving Mexican food, we can put fucking... We can drown out like Christopher Nolan's sound engineers. We can drown out any meal with any amount of spice and we'll still love it. Yeah. And then other people, like some French guy be like, Justin, what are you doing to my food? Yeah. Right? So it's interesting. Like if you look at the Korean emotions, it's like...

you know, Dave's insanity spice. Like, is there an objective standard? It's, I know there is, but it's where do you draw that line? You're right. No, you're absolutely right. There is a line to be told between like, okay, how much of this is subjective versus how much of this is just objective. Like, and there is no right or wrong. There's no right or wrong. There's definitely no right or wrong. And, but the way I see it is because you keep bringing the analogy back to food, which there is a clear analogy there. Yeah. You always bring it to face, but the,

But the clearest analogy and example I see is not food, but it's this, because I see a progression. Because it's not like we're taking a snapshot right now. Like I'm seeing, we're seeing a pattern, we're seeing a growth, and we see it across a lot of things. And one of the clearest examples for me is comedy.

So like even Western comedy, American comedy, if you look back in the day, what was considered funny was like the Three Stooges. Like physical stupidity. - Like Buster Poindexter. - Yeah, like physical comedy. Like people getting hit on the head with a big funny hammer. The Three Stooges, like really stupid shit. Shit we would watch now and be like, we wouldn't even laugh. We would think it's stupid, right?

But we see a maturity in terms of what now we see like more subtle jokes as like humor and it's incorporated in the writing. It's like evolved into like comedy has evolved into this whole other thing. And it's not just like outright physical comedy, right?

So I see the same kind of progression happening. Well, I anticipate the same kind of progression happening with just storytelling in general when it comes to writing. So like even when it comes to acting and emotional performances right now, I feel like it's still kind of more like physical expression. And but and then but it will progress more into like subtle kind of things as like,

as it matures, as like the art form and craft evolve, I think it will reach a higher meta level of like things where it doesn't have to be so in your face to get the point across and to be appreciated. You know, I, I get, I get sort of like the frame that you're putting on it. I, I don't know if I totally agree and I, but I don't know if I have sort of like a, you know, I have a strong point of view, but,

But I think like a couple of considerations. So one is that if we apply this frame where there is...

Less sophisticated stuff, more primitive stuff. And we apply our Western, you know, like growing up in the West and we apply this sort of linear view where it's like, okay, you start from primitive stuff and you're like, basically, you know, you're, you're, you're not very civilized, right? This colonial mentality. And then over time, based on my Western standards, you become more sophisticated, more subtle, and you are able to conform to my norms and,

I'm not sure if that's the right way of looking at it. Number one, right? But it's something to think about. And then number two is that I think, I do think these things go in cycles. So if you look at tastes, it's always, if you look at like architecture in the U S like neoclassicism versus like romanticism, it's, it's basically like you have a period of neoclassicism and then

And then there's a group of people that then see this norm and then just vomit. They just like, I hate this. And then they go do something completely opposite. And then it's actually a cycle that just goes back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. If you look at comedy, I would say that U S comedy is extremely crude and unsophisticated right now. Even like,

And if you really kind of put different lenses on it, is that physical comedy necessarily crude versus some of the stupid shit like Seth Rogen or Judd Apatow or whatever that stuff? There's a lot of crude shit out there that I love, but it's like eating McDonald's. You know what I'm saying? So I think you're always going to have McDonald's out there and you're always going to have fucking John George. But it doesn't necessarily mean that...

you know, that one is better than the other. And it doesn't mean that whatever Korea or whatever have to conform to our standards. So like, like I don't disagree with you. I probably like, I don't watch any of that stuff, but I want to be more open-minded because I don't necessarily think that that stuff is cruder or less sophisticated than the stuff that we grew up in within the, in, in the U S. So I think we have to be very careful about some of these standards and norms we're applying. And then when you just look at the overall political atmosphere, um,

you know, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, yeah, we're sitting on top of the world in the U S and now you look at it, right? Like the senators, the, the, the, the politicians, the leaders, if you were to compare them to the ones over here, who's fucking got a brain and who doesn't.

Yeah, well, I mean... You know, but that's a whole different... That's a whole different kind of world. It's all related, right? Because it's like kind of like, oh, no, like they're not sophisticated in these, you know, these backwards third world countries, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But it's like how much of that is us applying our norms to their thinking process versus really understanding the context of the decisions and the things that are being done. So I think it's... There's two sides to it. There really is two sides to it. And things change dramatically. You know what would be a good...

a good kind of statistic to know that could apply, that would give us more evidence to answer that question. Is it more subjective or is it more objective? Is on average, do Hollywood movies sell better in China or do Chinese movies sell better? Because we're talking about the local audience now. So there it's their choosing of which kind of now Chinese it's now Chinese are selling out, selling like Hollywood blockbusters. The top blockbusters are Chinese. Yeah, for sure.

I understand what you're saying. We need to have some ways of measuring things. Because then it's not us deciding, it's the Chinese audience deciding. Look, I think we can all agree, right? There's an objective part and there's a subjective part.

However, we like to overestimate the subjective part because we, based on our biases, think that we're being objective. And then I think the other piece is that when you start measuring these things, there are also other types of things where the bias seeps into the system so that the institutional bias

and the institutional history also forced things in a certain way, right? If you look at distribution of different types of films and stuff like that, that also influences like how people perceive these types of products. So like Netflix now is doing an incredible job of being able to export, uh,

right? Basically taking international dramas and then exporting it back into the U S whereas we've been talking recently in different shows with Ben about us being the, you know, like the, the,

the chief talent of the U S historically is like this notion of being able to export culture, but we're actually seeing the reverse now. Right? So if you look at Netflix, some of the top shows in the U S it's like, Oh shit, that was made in Spain or something. Right? So, so a lot of it is also the platform. It's the access. Cause if I block you, then you're not going to have a chance. Like look, look at Tik TOK. Right? So that, so you're starting to see things where the norms are changing. And because the game rules are changing, um,

countries outside the u.s have a chance now because if they were just competing against that old boys network sort of standard they would never win because the it's all rigged but once the things start changing then you start seeing that okay people their norms start changing so one day we might be eating like western food that's actually completely influenced by chinese people yeah and i think but i think overall the conversation we're having um if we look at it from a macro level um

is that, I mean, the idea of standards, right? And biases that we put on, whether it's cuisine or entertainment. I think the important thing that we need to consider is to challenge what we think, right? And I think in everything in life, right? To be a well-rounded human being, you need to do that. And I think that, you know, in general, the world just doesn't do that enough, right? Yeah.

in general. Well, we live in our silos, right? When you're talking generalities, right? We're talking about general populations of people. They live in their like thought silos, right? Where they're just in their kind of bubble of like reinforced. Well, it's easier to be that way, right? It just takes effort. Like right now, it's taking us effort to challenge our thought, to listen to Eric be like,

Hold on, guys. Right? And then for us to stop and be like, okay, yeah, you have a point. Right? Maybe it is like this, but what about this? But it's getting easier for us to do that, I feel. Because I feel like through the time that we've been here in China, we have challenged. That's why a lot of the things we talk about when it comes to more political issues and social issues here, we're always...

pretty much like 100% of the time, like pro-China on these issues. Whereas if we had never come to China before, or even when we first got here, we would not necessarily be saying the same things or have the same point of view. So like our, just our time being here, I, well, I can speak for myself personally, um,

I have put in a lot of effort to challenge the way I think about things, right? And to challenge like, okay, how much of it is just me with my biases and brainwashing? American biases. Yeah. And how much of it is if I look at the facts, right? And sift through and try to disregard all the misinformation that's out there. How much of it is just my own personal feelings of coming to a conclusion based on my own critical thinking? Absolutely. Right on. I think that...

And I think this is one of the themes of our shows, this growth mindset that we're having. And this is fortune for us. It's fortuitous. It's not like we did not make the decision to come here.

to another part of the world necessarily because we realized that we were ignorant, right? There were a lot of factors that went into our individual stories, but to our credit, once we came out here, we realized, wow, like there's another way that people live. There's another way that people think. And we took advantage of the environment. And then we realized that, okay, like maybe I don't know everything. And then we realized,

that insight to then start examining ourselves, reflecting. And that's why one of the reasons we, again, we always go back to why we started the show is that shit, we don't really know that much, you know? And recently I've been going back to some of the Ray Dalio stuff, Ray Dalio, the financier Bridgewater runs the biggest hedge fund, used to run the biggest hedge fund in the world, wrote principles to, to codify all of his stuff. And he said that pretty much like the, the thing that made him so successful was,

was that very early on he realized that he needed to be honest about what he didn't know and that he could be wrong. And so that was like one of the keys, like the top two or three keys to his success is the realization that, hey, actually, I really don't know shit. And so there's this really great quote, right? And he says, I mean, he was just on the Jordan Harbinger show, which is a great podcast, right?

And he says, I created a new terminology in which someone says, I'm just a dumb shit. Like he calls himself a dumb shit. This guy is like one of the richest guys in the world, right? He,

is respected by presidents prime ministers all over the world if anyone wants an opinion on finance they go to ray dalio i mean the guy is a fucking badass right and he's like yeah no i'm just a dumb shit right okay i i'm a dumb shit i don't know anything i'm ignorant i'm just trying to learn and so he's like the most successful people you can tell that they're successful by the quality of their questions and it's the people that don't ask questions that say oh i think this i think that

really quickly you can kind of just filter it and you can kind of just listen to people's syntax and what they're saying and it's the ones that are able to offer you really great questions these are the ones that are going to go a little bit further and then you start reflecting on yourself and then I catch myself trying to make statements all the time even in this show I was like I wanted to make my point and then I realized I'm just a dumb shit but I'm a real dumb shit you know not like fake dumb shit not like Ray Dalloway he's like he he

you know, he was a dumb shit 50 years ago, but it's interesting. Right. So it's like, um, I think this is part, this is one of our learnings on the show is that once you realize you don't really know that much, then you know more than a lot of people. It's the people that think they know a lot that they don't know shit. That's beautiful. Yeah. That's so beautiful. And so true. It's like, if you really just adopt like a learning mindset to things and be like, like, I really don't know at all. And,

Even if you think you know it all, but you just put yourself in the mindset of I'm always learning. I mean, that can only help you. And I think, but that's like a tough, I think for a lot of people, that's gotta be like an actual tough pill to swallow in real practice, right? Like, I think if you talk to any intelligent person and we had this conversation one-to-one, they'll be like, yeah, that makes sense. In theory. In theory, I wanna learn and we can all like agree with it and like, that's positive. Yeah.

But once like you get out into the real world and you start having real conversations, real debates with people, why do people get so heated and so passionate about getting in debates with you, whether it's political subjects or social topics or personal topics, whatever it is, is because in actual practice,

Everyone gets stuck on like, my beliefs are my beliefs. I'm so convinced that what I believe is the right thing, right? Because we justify it in our minds where it absolutely, 100% is almost the right thing, right? And we don't really in practice really be like, well, maybe I'm wrong. And maybe I really don't know it all. No matter how convinced I am, I think I'm right.

You know? It's so easy to say. Yeah. And, but really when you ask yourself, just ask yourself, when was the last time I had this mindset of like, I could be wrong. And so like, even like Warren Buffett, like Charlie Munger, you know what, and you know, these guys are like,

They can't really make that many mistakes. If they make a mistake, they lose everything. And so they made a practice of really limiting their exposure to these types of mistakes. And what they've done also is sort of like, okay, I could be wrong. So it's not so much the question they ask is, why am I right? Which is what we default to. That's our programming. That's my programming. That's your programming. It's how could I be wrong?

So they shift from why am I right, which is the position that we normally are. It's like our default. Our default, like our invisible script, like my operating system, Eric Chang,

5.0 whatever is running this thing where the code is basically saying I'm right I'm right that's why we get in so many arguments because because we're all we've got this code we've got the same fucking code in our system but it's the question we then need to take a subroutine and a branch off our code and put a new routine in there put a new patch right and upgrade ourselves and say no how could I actually be wrong and when I do that I'll tell you one thing that really helps me is

is that the rare occasions that I do this, the decision quality is a lot better and I feel a lot better about the conversation because it builds a better relationship with the person I talk to. You hit the nail on the head right there.

It really makes you feel much better about the conversation because you're not like, you're not in this angst. - Clenched. - Yeah, clenched and be like, and just like frustrated and like, right? - Like taking a shit and it won't come out. - Exactly. You're constipated, right? Like, all of a sudden where it frees you up to really have, to just be in the moment of the conversation and to appreciate the conversation, no matter what, where that conversation is going, but you end up appreciating it and you end up learning from it. You're absolutely right.

It's hard to practice. That one came from how he was saying he kind of was

was listening and processing. And then he was like, oh, we got to challenge what we think. And it's like, it is about appreciating. And it's funny because in meditation, you learn a lot about these things and it's just kind of like very, you think it's kind of frou-frou, whatever. But when you do practice it, then you're able to course correct a little bit. And so I think we're trying to reprogram ourselves a little bit because we have a lot of faulty circuits, basically. Yeah. And it's easy to ask that question to be like, oh, what if I'm wrong? When you're not sure about something, the key is

to have that mindset when you think you're right about something. You know what I mean? Because that's when, you know, that's when we don't do it. When you want to convince someone. Exactly. So it's almost like you have to be mindful and be like, okay, in that moment when you really want to voice your opinion and you can't, you want to just let it out. Yeah. It's like, no. Yeah. Just pause. I could be wrong.

Where you really want to be like, aha, I got you moment. You know what I mean? Like when you're countering someone's argument and you're just waiting to say like, aha, I got you. And you're just waiting. And you're not even processing what the other person is saying at this point. You're just kind of thinking about your own comeback, right? It's at those moments that are the most frustrating and most like you're most passionate, you're most worked up where you got to just be like, I don't know shit, dude. Like, you know, I didn't know what's that. I could be wrong. Can I add a caveat? Yeah.

I love how we always preach this shit but like in practice like once after this podcast me and you we're just gonna get into another argument yeah I think we're a lot better now yeah um so I'm listening to this and I'm you know I was going along with what you guys are saying and I agree for the most part yeah and then I just I started putting myself in those situations right in my mind while listening to you um you know putting myself in those situations in work

And then I realized there's a caveat, right? Yes, you can always challenge yourself if you're so confident in a certain way. Maybe you're wrong, right? Maybe you have to ask yourself, maybe I'm wrong. If you're working with somebody else and they give their own ideas, but you're so adamant about your own ideas, maybe you step back and say, well, hold on. Maybe they have a point, right? That's what you're saying, right? I think you have to add one more step because it really depends on who you're talking to. You know what I mean? What, some people are just dumbasses? Yes.

So what I'm trying to say, what I'm trying to get at is I've been in so many situations where I'm working with other professionals and we're trying to problem solve something. I give my opinion and they give their opinion and their opinion is so off track that I just shake my head. I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? Just do what I say. Just do what I say. Stop. Stop.

And I'm being very honest. And I've done stuff. I step back like, am I wrong? Maybe they're right. Why are they proposing that idea? But then I realized they just don't get it.

You know what I mean? And then, then, then I don't know. Then it's like, well, when, when do you, when can you self-censor? No, no, no, no. So I think you're misunderstanding. Like what you're doing there is all that is needed. All, at least all I'm saying is just give yourself the time and opportunity to question, to question it and to run it through. And you could very well still come to the same conclusion. Like, oh no, I'm right. I was right to begin with. Yeah. But it's giving that,

opportunity to run through the questioning process of, oh, maybe I'm wrong and let me see how I might be wrong. And honestly giving it the time of day to kind of go through that process and think critically about the situation and then come again to your conclusion. And that final conclusion could still just be the same conclusion or same thought process or maybe it will change. But the point is,

Just to run through it. Instead of just closing your mind to any other options. Exactly. Like honestly running through it. As long as you have the time and flexibility to be able to even put yourself through those processes. Well, it's just a mental process that I think you just build a mindfulness to do it. Well, one thing that you're referencing is like a very specific situation. So you're referencing specific situations where...

you know someone that was you know maybe far less knowledgeable or experienced than you was offering an opinion okay ray dalio actually addresses this okay i would say but i like before i kind of go through what he said i would say that you're addressing specific instances what and and there's no there's you're absolutely right you're totally right however that's like one percent of the circumstances the other 99 in your life you need to ask the question how could i be wrong

Unless you're just surrounded by dumbasses all the time. But you're not constantly making decisions. Basically, it's a learning mindset, right?

Examples would be like you pick up a book, you read one sentence like this guy's a dumbass, you throw it away. It could be in a conversation where you cut people off, you don't listen. Like I've tried to, you know, knowing that I like to kind of jump in, I've tried to hold myself back and like listen to you guys. And then every time I've done that, I've found that you guys made a, you know, a very insightful comment.

There are times where you don't, you decide not to do something like, oh, I'm not going to go to this place because I know it's going to be bad, right? So I think it's like, it's these moments where you're building this habit of being more open-minded and having this growth mindset. So, right, so it's a different type of, we're talking about this

a more general kind of situation. Now, in the sense of like, you got to make important business decisions. Yeah. There's this thing that Ray Dalio calls like there it's something called like credibility weighted. So basically whenever they have a meeting, they have to make a decision. Like while we want to get ideas from really junior people at the same time, we will,

take their credibility into account when we listen to the quality of their opinion. So that someone who is a nuclear physicist and we ask them a question about a nuclear bomb will have much higher credibility than if you ask my niece, my niece, my niece, right? And so...

it is really a balance where how do you avoid being closed minded, which is a, it's a, it's a, it's a danger. It's a massive risk because most people are closed minded and it's, it is a, it is a very, very serious thing versus waiting for,

the credibility of a person appropriately, you know? So I think you have to keep both in mind. There's nothing that's like one sided, but I agree with you. But in general, I think what we're talking philosophically on this show is that the note, the number of times where we're in a situation where we're closed minded every day could be like 50 times. And then the scenario that Howie mentions, the number of times where some dumb ass says something, I'll be once a day.

So when you sort of weigh your behaviors, then you know how to weigh your behaviors, right? I'm not over-indexing for the one time where some dumbass is saying something. I'm indexing for the 49 times that I'm being a dumbass. Yeah. And also we're trying to apply this not to the extreme examples because with the extreme examples, like you're talking to a person like there's a complete dumbass or that has absolutely no credibility. You don't even need to run through this process because you're just going to like,

do it naturally, right? - Yeah. - It's for all the, like you're saying, Eric, like it's for the majority of the situations we're in where it's pretty much even, you know what I mean? - Yeah. - That we need to apply this to. - Both scenarios are important, of course. - But the weighting thing, like you're saying, like weighting people's credibilities, don't you think like we don't even really need to do that mindfully? Like don't we do that already naturally?

If we're talking about a nuclear physics and there's a nuclear physicist that I'm talking to, I don't have to consciously think, oh, he is a nuclear physicist, so I have to really weight his... I will naturally, just because it's coming from him, intuitively...

rely on his advice and his information a lot more than say compared to just a normal person. Sometimes it's not so clear and then like there's you know I can't find the exact That's a really exaggerated example. I can't find the exact section but I think the scenarios that Howie point out are also very very valid as

as well. But there's like a way of where in Bridgewater and his company, when they made decisions, because sometimes like you have really vocal people, which overshadows the fact that who has the most credibility to make a decision. So he built an entire framework

very analytically of knowing, okay, X number of people need to make a decision. And then he would actually feed this into like a system. So like they would make decisions over a period of 10, 20, 30 years, and he could actually analyze the results. So he completely took human sort of decision-making and then fed it into an analytical engine. And then he could actually produce the analytics and the facts that you were talking about earlier on where I had data on it. So he applied like the scientific process to it.

Exactly. So he applied the scientific process to how people work together to produce the best possible results. He completely optimized it in a way that accounted for human nature, yet leveraged logic and the scientific method. And that's why he's Ray Dalio, basically. I guess it's really important, right? Because to your point before, you were saying maybe there are just some people that are just more vocal, so they come off as more like...

like having authority or credible when they're just really being more vocal about the issue, right? Like take someone like who may have no background or no credibility in a certain subject matter, but he's just a really charismatic or she is just a really charismatic talker.

Right. A charismatic personality, a natural leader. It's a lot of those people. Yeah. A lot of those people who just come off and have that vibe and energy. Right. And so people will gravitate and be like, okay, I should listen to them. Meanwhile, like how much of what they're saying, should you really be like holding as gospel? Yeah.

When really you're just being like bought in, you're just buying into their charisma. And that's how a lot of cults get started. And I found this like, so, and, and I didn't have it quite right earlier. So he talks about believability. And so you believe ability, you use believability to weight your decision. What that means is that he finds people that are believable and then he over indexes people.

a decision based on their evaluation, their assessment. So what's a believable person? It's someone who's repeatedly and successfully accomplished the things in question, who have a strong track record in this particular area, this question we're talking about, with at least three successes and have the ability to articulate their approach when they're probed on why they've decided this.

So he makes it extremely analytical. So like imagine you're in a financial company making multi-billion dollar bets. He's like, okay, well, let's find the two people in the company that know their shit. Why do they know their shit? Oh, they've already done this three times. And whatever they say makes a lot of fucking sense. So he's like, yeah, this takes a little bit more time, but you get way better results this way.

So you do slow down in those situations when you need to make like really key decisions. And this is what hierarchy does as well, right? Like what Howie is saying is like, you know, in politics and government, the reason in the military, especially the reason we have hierarchies so we can make decisions quicker. So then some dumb ass at the lowest level isn't making a decision. But at the same time, you have to protect against the

you know, people at a higher level actually making poor decisions, which happens also all the time. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great point. Yeah. Principles, Ray Dalio, read it. I love how we tied all that back into this from like TV shows. We don't want to do that. What a path. We're all dumb asses. You know, it happens. We're all dumb asses.

yeah we were talking standards and then came to here yeah we were we were talking umbrella academy i love it superheroes and this is what happened some nerdy i don't know do we have anything more to say should we wrap it up i think we're good right we're a good time that was a good one all right um i guess we'll wrap it up here then um okay folks that's it for today i love you guys my name is justin my name is eric

And I am Howie. And people are saying that we still sound the same. Yeah. Anne, do we sound the same? You guys sound drastically different. Really? Say that into the microphone. You guys sound drastically, drastically different. Yeah, because there's a couple of comments that I read. No, there's a lot of comments. Yeah, they said that we sound the same. Yeah. No, but Anne, that's because you know us, you know? So, you know. It's easy.

Yeah, okay, so we have an ask

right, from our listeners. And ask is basically, it's like, so number one is, like, don't just listen to our voices, listen to what we say. And what we say, and how we say things. Yeah, how we say, like, you know, if one of us is like a super asshole, then you're going to be able to find out which guy that is, right? And if one person is super argumentative, or one person is super emotional, if you listen to the actual content of what we say, eventually you can kind of figure out who we are. The other, the other ask is,

or the request is, hey, like, have you got any great TV shows, Chinese TV shows, Korean TV shows? Send them over because Justin wants to watch them. Yeah, put them in the comment section. If you have any suggestions for great TV shows that you think we should see, given what we talked about today.

let us know and we'll go check them out and we can give you our feedback on them as well. Yeah, maybe in the future, future episodes, maybe we'll all watch it and we can talk about it. We talk about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also, looking into getting that WeChat group going. Are you really though? Are we really doing that? Yeah. No, no, I'm down. I'm just like, what's it going to be called? The Honest Drink. No, no, no. We used our, it's not our own private one. We're going to have an Honest Drink WeChat. The Honest Drink WeChat. So that's actually happening. We'll let you guys know. Yeah, coming weeks. Okay.

And hopefully we'll have more interaction on there. Yep. You know, going back to the voices thing, should we just like start talking in different accents? Because I was going to start thinking, like talking like this. How's Howie? Hey, guys. I'm so bad at accents. I don't even know what accents I would do. That's how Howie normally talks. He changes his voice for the show. It is. This is how I really am. Yeah. So we all start talking in different accents. Like I start talking like...

I'm so bad at accents. I don't even know what to do. Why are you puckering your lips, Justin? Like you're chewing something. Yeah, I don't know. I was about to do kind of a racist accent. I decided not to do it. That's probably not a good idea. Anyway, so I guess we're going to end it there. Yeah, okay.

Alright guys. That's kind of an abrupt ending, but hey, whatever. Again, we love you guys. Yes. And we'll be in touch. I'm Justin. I'm Eric. And I'm Howie. Alright guys, peace. Bye-bye. Bye.