Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
- What's up everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. If you've been enjoying the show, go ahead, rate, comment, and subscribe. Today, it's Eric and I, and we get into a little bit of a therapy session. We didn't mean to-- - Is that what you call it? - I think that's what it turned out to be. Okay, so today, we talk about the 24-hour news cycle. We talk about the stories we're told. - So I wrote this down. I said, okay, it's the story, the notion of a story.
that keeps us together and pulls us apart. They can produce cathedrals and symphonies and also war and suffering. And that means a lot of responsibility for the storytellers and a lot of competition to see who gets to tell the stories. We do get into all of that. We talk about our insecurities of being frauds. We talk about a deep desire to want to be liked and make friends.
This one, I felt, maybe brought me and you a little closer together, would you say? Marginally. But, without further ado, here we go. Don't hit that one. It'll do. I'm gonna blow out my eardrums. Fucking death. Like, life's mixtape. I'm not gonna be able to even have a mixtape because I won't be able to hear after this show. Did you listen to that episode? Always. Always. But I haven't finished that one.
The show probably took on a different arc based on some of the feedback from the fans. I didn't get to that point because it started off kind of in a meandering way. It wasn't like, I don't think it started off in like a very forceful way. So I probably just didn't get past that part. But some people were saying they heard it and they were like crying and tears and stuff. Yeah, we got quite a few of those comments, actually. I'm very surprised about that. Yeah. Well, what's up, man?
Not too much, but what's been going on? A lot of world events, decisions, handovers, transitions. Yeah, there's a lot of world events, but there's always a lot of world events. To be honest, it's hard. You know, this is a debate I have with myself every now and then. What really is the use and benefit of me being just locked into the 24-hour news cycle all the time?
And I think the knee-jerk reaction is to say, well, you got to know what's going on in the world. You got to stay up to date and aware, right? You have to be informed. And of course, like you can't argue with that. But then, okay, I'll try to stay informed. And then most of the time, and I'm only speaking for myself, most of the time, it's not really doing anything for me in terms of improving my own quality of life.
If I'm reading about political events or drama happening in the U.S. or even in this country here, it's like, oh, you talk about it with friends, you gossip about it. Oh, did you hear about this? Do you hear about that? And then it kind of stops there. And then I realize like I have like way more important things to worry about in my day to day. That's like directly impacting like the livelihood of like people around me and myself.
So like, you know, and then, and then becomes, I guess, a discussion of like, well, how do you use your time? You know, where do you focus your attention on? We've talked about this, me and you before very deeply, like you are the sum of like your focus and attention. And so, and you know me, I've been, I've always been pretty critical of the media in general, no matter where you are. You're like, well, is that the best way to use my time and my attention? And
you know, what is all these world events like? And you're only getting fed what they tell you too. So you're not really behind the scenes to really know like what is really, really happening. It's just a headline. Well, let me ask you this, Mr. 24-hour news cycle, reluctant 24-hour news cycle guy. What have you read recently that comes to mind? What do you remember from the news cycle?
Do you even remember anything from it? Okay, no. So that's a very valid question. So kind of the reason why I bring this up is because maybe for like the past two years or so, year and a half, I don't know, post-COVID, I've made it like a point not to be so plugged into the news. You know, you can't, you know, the way they kind of,
dictate the news and filter the news and some of it isn't even really fact-checked and some of it is just plain bullshit too like and they almost have their agendas like to think like that big media corporations don't have their own agendas is is silly to me um so if i'm on there kind of believing that and at the same time i'm like constantly plugged into the news and just be like you know and having that be like kind of my
my worldview, then I'd be like kind of very hypocritical at the same time. Right. So, um, yeah, I mean, to answer your question, I haven't really been plugged in so much to the news. Like I hear it mostly from friends, you know, who want to talk about it right now. And some news is unavoidable. Like, you know, if you hop on any, any media site, you know, you're going to have like some big headlines like thrown in your face, but I'm not like actively trying to pursue it. That's what I'm saying. Yeah.
I don't spend too much time on it. I have Economist, New York Times. I downloaded the AP News and the Reuters. We talked about going to some of the news agencies to maybe have a little bit less bias, although I feel like when I read their articles, they're not much different than the rest of them. They're still kind of perpetuating a certain angle.
But I don't spend a whole lot of time, but I do take a peek every day, listen to some podcasts. I think the podcasts I listen to, like related to the news, I listen to the New York Times, the Daily. I listen to the Economist one.
It's got lots of stuff. I listen to Fareed Zakaria, who's a, you know, kind of a commentator. He's on CNN, right? Yeah, he's on CNN. But I mean, I think he's sort of like a celebrity sort of political commentator. And I don't, like, he's not like your typical CNN kind of commentator, right? He's just famous enough to get on a big network like that. But I don't think he... But he only comes on like late night, right? And for like US time.
I don't watch his stuff because I don't watch TV. But I do listen to his, he has a podcast basically version of his TV show. It's just, he takes the TV show and they make it into a podcast, right? And so I try to just find some, at least on a surface, not super biased stuff. I mean, New York Times is probably a bit tilted, but Economist, some of these Reuters, at least they're not overtly biased.
like CNN, Fox News level kind of bias where you go on there and like Fox News is all about like people, pedophiles, like every other article is about like pedophiles or it's just something ridiculous, right? And CNN is all about like this conspiracy with the Republicans and all that stuff. So I don't, I try not to get too into that. I'm wondering though, what's the value of this news? Like going back to your question, because there's no like,
Most of the time, there's no narrative. It's just the article, the flavor of the day, whatever's going to catch your eyeballs. And then tomorrow, you forget everything that you saw today, and then there's another article. There's not usually a series. Sometimes you see them where they do some investigation or they go into a story into more depth.
over a period of time and then they have like a sequence. They rarely follow up on the stories. No. Like over time. No, no. They'll give you like the initial like shocking news of something, but then they rarely kind of follow it up. It's like they have an amnesia. Yeah. They have amnesia and then every day it's like a new kind of thing. But the other thing though is that because all this stuff is stored online now, you can reference stories.
different articles from different periods of time and see some of the connection there. But I try not to get too caught up because it's just a rabbit hole like anything else, like YouTube, like social media. All these things are a rabbit hole. Ultimately, they're just entertainment or there's some way of capturing your attention. But...
I suppose by reading or listening to the news, you at least get a sense of who the players are. So whether or not the reporting is accurate and the narrative is accurate, at least you see the companies, the individuals, the governments, the people that are creating or causing the news. And then from that, you might be able to indirectly deduce what's going on in the world. You know, when I think about our episode with Ben,
So like what he was talking about in terms of U.S. companies coming to China, Chinese companies, brands, you know, competition, like that kind of stuff. Like you're not going to read a lot of it. Like I found him quite insightful and I found him knowledgeable about.
in terms of what's happening in the market, what the competitive sort of landscape looks like. You're not going to necessarily find that in the news too often. You might be able to infer some of that, but his knowledge of this stuff is much deeper, right? Well, it's much more ground level and detailed. You'll never find that amount of detail in any kind of mainstream news media reporting. They'll give you the main headlines, right?
but they'll never give you the nuances of it all. Right. They're just giving you sort of like what the arguments are, right? What the conflict is. Like, I don't know. Like I'm looking at like Reuters right now, right? I'm going to skip the top headline. You can't talk about that one.
But, you know, like, so the second one is like Russian strikes cause blackouts in much of Ukraine, more flea cursing. So that's an update on the war. It gives you a sense of what's going on because it is a, it's something impacting all of us, but we can't really, you know, we're not, we're not able to control anything.
Then it says NASDAQ halts the IPOs of small Chinese companies as it probes stock rallies. I mean, that's like totally irrelevant to me. I don't run a Chinese company. Johnson battling to win support for a fresh PM bid. I don't even know how people can just like
you know, serve for like 10 days and like Liz trust and just get kicked out. Like that doesn't happen in America. Like you can suck like Trump, like really hard and you still get like four years, right? You could totally suck. Maybe even more. Yeah. We'll see. It could be eight. It could be. So I don't get that one. And then it's like analysis, poor nations face peril over elusive G20 debt relief push. I don't even know what the fuck that's like.
What does that even mean? It's so over my head, right? ABCs, not LGBTs, battles over race. I don't even know what ABCs mean. Is that me and you, ABCs? Is it American born Chinese? Teach ABC, oh no, no, ABCD. Teach ABC123, not CRT and LGBT. Oh, okay. So that's what's going on in the States. Sorry, in the specific context is that battles over race, gender, and flame Texas school board vote.
So apparently in Texas, they call it blood sport politics have come to the school board elections. So you have battles, right? You have people that are talking more about and wanting to embrace inclusion and diversity, let's say that. And then you have others that oppose that and are like, no, we just need to know ABC 123, right? Yeah, well, to clarify, CRT is a critical race theory, right? Oh, okay, that's right, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, like, look, okay, look, let's take that as an example right there. That to me, to get hung up on those kind of headlines, if you're like not really in the fight yourself, I just don't understand, like that to me is just getting yourself wrapped up more in ideology than anything else, right? Like you're drawing lines in the sand and taking one side over the other based on ideology. To me, it's really no different than
people arguing over religion. It boils down to ideology and differences in ideology and people bickering over ideology. And at the end of the day, that's religion to me. Yeah, for sure. I agree with you. What I can see with this type of stuff, you mentioned that it's kind of like this ideology choosing sides. I almost feel like it's like sports, right?
Like it literally comes down to entertainment, right? So like, like it's like sports. Like I was reading about MMA fighters this morning and, you know, they were saying like, you know, Dillashaw, like, like I think Peter Yen, a couple other people. And so essentially like there's two styles, two sides. A lot of times these fighters have different styles and there's a lot of buildup and debate.
There's a lot of commentary leading up to the fight and they, people pick sides and, and sometimes it gets emotional and sometimes it's more just like a prediction. Then the fight happens. They analyze the fight. Someone wins, someone loses. Sometimes they think that the winner should have lost and the loser should have won who they're going to fight next, et cetera, et cetera. I almost feel like these headlines are just like that. It's trying to get you to pick a side and,
And they kind of talk through the merits of each side in some ways, or at least the arguments each side are kind of, you know, proposing. And then you kind of choose a side and then you see like the outcome. And it's like entertainment. It literally is like entertainment because...
Yeah, I don't know. This one's kind of a strange one, right? Because I think you should teach all this stuff. But anyways, that's just my personal opinion. I think you should teach ABCs in 1, 2, 3, and you should also be talking about inclusion and diversity. Well, do you think us as humans, we are hardwired to want to have to pick winners and losers in things? There has to be a clear winner and there has to be a clear loser. And if there isn't, it's like we're just not satisfied with
Do you feel like that's part of our hardwiring or not? I think that there must be something to that in terms of different groups and preference for your own group and in terms of survival. I think that different groups have different sorts of properties and characteristics. So you think it's more of an evolutionary trait?
Well, you asked if it's kind of like programmed into us or like embedded into us. And in that sense, I think it would be probably evolutionary, but I don't know. Well, we've had like since the earliest civilizations, there have been evidence of like sports and competition. And so what is that if not having winners and losers? Yeah. And it would make sense that it would help in kind of like survival.
You know, you got to win to survive, I guess, to simplify it, to overly simplify the whole thing. Well, I mean, that would explain sort of, like, imagine you had a group of people that had similar properties and characteristics or features, whatever it is. Then for this group of people and sort of their properties to be passed down genetically, right?
then this group would have to have an advantage over like another group, right? And you wouldn't go and join the other group probably, right? You would stick with your group. And then if your group were ultimately successful and surviving, then whatever characteristics, properties, genes that you had would get passed down and then you would survive in that sense. So to me, that automatically creates some competition, right?
Because you're fighting the other group that has other types of characteristics. Like, are tall people going to, like, you know, win out? Or is it going to be, you know, stocky people or something like that? I mean, that's an oversimplification. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, like, what? Like, going back in the book Sapiens, where there was, like, at a certain point, like, Neanderthals were, like, battling different, like, kind of, like, species within, like, the human DNA. Yeah.
They evolved and over time, like we emerged. Right. But there were like other like kind of forms of humans that were living amongst us. We just killed them all. Yeah. There was the Neanderthals, I think like Homo erectus. Yeah. Homo erectus or something. There was a few and they could actually, they could have children. They could mate. They could mate. But like, it makes me think like, okay, to bring this back to something like more relevant to us, it's like,
You know, I've been thinking lately, I think for a lot of us, you know, our train of thought was to kind of like, okay, well, how do I succeed in life? And that's basically saying, how do I win at life, right? Success is winning. It's the same thing in the way we understand it. And I think we spend so much time conforming to the rules of society and what society dictates as success, right?
And we try to achieve those metrics. And in a way, it blinds us in a way. Like, I don't know, like, I'm not saying like, I'm not trying to be, you know, I'm not trying to be all preachy like that, but I'm just saying like, I myself have always thought like, okay, well, how do I win? How do I do better? How do I be a successful person moving forward? And, you know, my kid, because I guess I'll just say it now, my wife did just give birth.
couple days ago from recording this podcast. So all that talk of parenthood, I am actually a father now. Congratulations. Thank you. So now it's got me like thinking like all these other things, like what does success mean to me? And I'm rethinking the whole thing. Like, and again, this is only pertaining to my specific situation. Like again, like
If you're in dire need of like immediate survival, right, or a shelter, you know, a lot of these things, then forget everything I'm saying. But in my position, like success for me would mean I'm more and more thinking about like properly raising my kid, you know, for him not only to be in a position to be happy but healthy in this world.
And it's kind of like completely shaken up my whole kind of framework in terms of what I deem as success. It's not so much me focused anymore. It's more my kid focused now. And I never expected that to be the case, honestly, because look, I'd be very blunt. Like, I feel like I've always been pretty selfish in the sense that I've always been pretty self-centered in a way where I'm
I am trying to think about what I'm going to do, what I'm going to do next. How can I achieve happiness? And it surprises me, like really, like it's a whole cliche. The whole parenthood thing is such a cliche and I never thought I'd buy into it. But honestly, the moment I saw my kid, it really, things really did change for me. And so now I'm still trying to collect myself and figure things out
in a way of like, what does success mean? And if I win, does that mean someone else has to lose? I don't know that that's the case. I really don't. And even to tie into like the whole plugging into like media and the 24-hour news cycle, like I was just reading a book about raising a kid, like what to do in the first months of having a newborn. And just those few chapters that I read in that book
to me, I would not give any of that information up for years of information that I've taken in from watching the news. You know what I mean? Like, so just those few chapters outweigh everything I've absorbed in any kind of media for years and years and years and years, you know? So like that's, that was kind of, I guess, maybe where I was coming from in terms of like
How useful is it? What's the value of being so plugged in and using your time and attention to focus in on the 24-hour news cycle in which you called entertainment, and I would agree, versus reading something like that's really pertaining to something that can actually help you and something you actually really need. And for me, in this example, was a book about what to look out for in the first few weeks of having given birth and having a kid and keeping this kid alive, for God's sake. Mm-hmm.
Well, so let me ask you this, right? Like human beings have been having kids long, long, long before we had like printed, like the printing press and books and like accumulation of knowledge. And in fact, for probably most of mankind, I would guess that most people are illiterate.
So how did they raise babies back then? Like, why do you need a fucking book? That's true. That's a good point. Right. I don't know. They, well, there's a few questions in there. I guess they pass it down through stories and through experience and through one generation to another. Um,
And don't forget in times past that, you know, the more like the, what's it called? The fatality rates or mortality rates in newborns was extremely high. So you're not like, you're, you don't find it acceptable that like,
you know, like a low mortality or a high mortality, low mortality rate. Yeah. No, it makes sense. Yeah. That's not something you can tolerate. Right. Right. So like, and even because you do raise up a good point, this was something I was even saying to my wife as we were going in to give birth, because clearly, you know, you're, you're before you give birth, especially if you're the female, you're going to be very nervous. Understandably, you're going to be scared.
And I, rightly or wrongly, I kept saying to her, we're not special. Millions of people give birth every single day. We're not special. This is not some crazy thing that's happening to you. This happens millions of times every single day. And so I was trying to say that to comfort her, to kind of let her know, like, dude, like, you can totally get through this.
Like you're not alone also. You're not alone, yeah. Because I think there's, well. Like people have been through this and people are going through this millions of times over. So it's like. Although there isn't like, not to go too deep, but there's a little bit of a nuance because there could be this thing where you're just like, hey, look, get off your, like this, get out of your own head a little bit. There are millions of people that do this. And it's almost dismissive.
And then there's a danger of that. But then there's probably another way you can say it to say there are like the, I guess the miracle of life is happening all around us. And while it is like so difficult that what you're going to be going through, there are other people that are going to be going through this with you. And so it's the same sort of message, but it's,
it's framed in a less dismissive way because it's easy for guys to be dismissive. Yeah. Yeah. No, no. Yeah. So that's, that's the key word and it can come off as very dismissive and maybe it did. Um, and it probably did. Um, but I was kind of purposely trying to be dismissive because my point was I wanted her like inside. I'm freaking out as I'm saying this, I'm freaking out myself. Right. So like, I'm totally not taking my own advice, but,
But outwardly, I'm trying to be dismissive in front of her just to try to give her some comfort and being like, look, you got this. This is nothing. Like, people are doing this all the time, you know? Like, you're going to get through this. You're going to get through this. Did it work or did it make her feel worse? I still have to talk to her about that. I don't know. But she took it like a champ. She really did. And I've never been so impressed with her than I was with...
you know, throughout these few days when she's been giving birth and even afterwards, the recovery process, like I've never been so impressed with her. And because I've always felt living with her, she's always had like a pretty, um,
threshold of pain tolerance you know you know that's so like passive aggressive it's like just suck it up it's like it's like it's like Ann I'm just like because like normally I feel like she's pretty tough and then she gets like a little cut and a boo-boo and she's like I gotta go to the hospital I'm like oh my god I just want to chill today okay it's fucking Saturday and we have to go to the hospital and all this stuff I'm like you literally just got like a little surface cut
And she's like, but it could be. It's like nothing, yeah. Yeah, but it was a piece of metal. It has rust in it. I could get like, you know, like gangrene. I'm like, what are you talking about? I'll be like squeezing like her shoulders or her calves, like massaging her, right? Right. And then like, I will like squeeze, which I honestly, honestly, like objectively, it's not even hard, but she'll be like, ow, you know, like, like what the hell? Totally. And so I've always had this idea, image in my mind that she had a low threshold of like pain tolerance. Right, right.
And as for whatever we know about birth, we do hear it's one of the most painful things a human can go through. - The most painful thing you can go through other than death. - Well, depending on what kind of death it is. - Right, right, right, yeah. - But regardless, it's up there, right? - Yeah. - And she took it really well. Don't get me wrong, she was in a lot of pain. - To go back to the earlier comment,
Yeah, like, I mean, I'll give Anne a massage and it's just like, I'm literally like, I'm like just touching her. Like literally there's like, it's like air. She's like, ah. It's like a Reiki massage. Yeah, and also mentally they're so sensitive. Like, oh, like Thomas Sadella, you're killing me. Or like maybe you'll be sitting there and then all of a sudden you'll turn or you'll have an abrupt movement and maybe you bump into him. Like, oh my God, you like broke my arm. I'm like, oh my God, like what are you talking, are you made of like,
you know, a straw. Yeah. Are you made? Are you like a potato chip? But I think it shows our insensitivity, but, but the point I'm trying to make is like, yes, but this has completely rewrote the book for me in terms of viewing her and her pain tolerance. Cause she handled it so well. And with so much courage, like she,
Like, I don't know if I could do that, you know? I really don't. No, no, you couldn't. I mean, we all know who the real weak one... Like, you're talking shit about her. She's just, like, shaking her head, right? Also, I think it illustrates maybe two other things. One is...
that if you have a purpose, I mean, what was it Nietzsche that said, like, anyone that has a why can bear the how or the what or whatever it is. And so I think that it points to the fact that like, this was- This was exactly that played out in real life right in front of my eyes. Yeah, like- Like we can talk about it all day long, but like, this was like a real world example, firsthand playing out right in front of me in real time. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. And then I think the second piece is,
Is that just like everyone has much more resilience and ability to withstand, you know, bad things than, you know, we're more resilient. We just, we haven't been tested yet.
Yeah.
You're ready for them because they will come after you. Life will come after you. Death will come after you. Sickness and illness will come after you. Tragedy will come after you. You better be fucking ready. So you can't just like Tang Ping.
Because you're going to be a fucking sitting duck. Right? Yeah. So it is interesting. But props to her. I've been focusing all my attention on you. Like, oh, congratulations. You didn't do shit. I didn't do shit. You did the fun part. I just stood there. Nine months ago, you did the fun part. And now you're just like, fucking it came. She had to go through and carry that.
Yeah. You know, carry your kid. Yeah, it's crazy. It just makes you appreciate things more, right? And then like to your point, like we are wired, like in some ways we are wired that it's a zero sum game. Like literally, mano a mano, there's one piece of meat left. Me and you, the last two people in the world,
It's do or die. It's either the Yangs or the Shangs. You know what I'm saying? You probably kicked my ass. That would be fun to watch. Even if it was me and Howie, the Lambs and Shangs that ganged up the Yangs, the Yangs would fuck crush us. Howie's like a gimp, basically. He literally... Well, we have a very funny story about that. Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah, he's a gimp. Half-time, he's like... You remember that KTV incident? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Oh my God. Like, God, he just, he was literally like, just punch me. Like he asked for the sucker punch. It's like, you are like brawling. It was like such a sagua. Like, what's going on guys? I'm like, I'm running in there. I'm like, bring in the troops. I'm like, I'm like, literally. And he's like, what happened? But, um, what were we talking about? Uh,
The Yangs versus the Shanks. Oh, no. Yeah, yeah. Zero-sum game. Zero-sum game. So we have that, right? And I think like, you know, in Blueprint that we talked in the book Blueprint by Chris Takis, like we talked about. Nikki. Nikki. Nikki. You know, some of his friends call her. Nikki K. Nikki K. Nikki C, actually. Oh, is it C? Yeah. He's my idol, by the way. I hope I get to meet him. Yeah.
But, like, so he talks about, like, that part of it where, you know, human beings will fight. There's in-group bias and, like, we're going to, you know, we're going to have prejudices against people outside of our group and there's mild hierarchy and all this stuff, right? Yeah.
But if it was like that, we just, it'd be like the animal kingdom and we would just be like ruthlessly killing each other. But we're not, we're having a podcast. The Yangs and the Shangs are like buddies, right? We're literally like cooperating. When this notion of like cooperation, altruism, generosity, like you see this through the pandemic. He wrote a book called Apollo's Arrow about the pandemic and you see like people banding together. Yeah, of course there's people doing bad things, but overall like to make a vaccine is like a crazy, like the amount of,
coordination across the number of minds and governments and companies to produce a vaccine is just absolutely mind-blowing it's you know it's not easy making a podcast but like to make a vaccine is like literally like one trillion times harder than making a podcast right and so i think there is that piece of it there is a zero-sum game so going back to your original point like yeah like we are fighting for resources and trying to make sure that our offsprings survive and
And that's why we do what we do. But then there's this other switch in us that's the higher level part of us where we do, you know, cooperate and I think work together. No, I mean- And maybe fatherhood activates that angle. Like you're a kinder, softer, gentler Justin. Well, they do say like once you become a father, even in the males, you start losing testosterone. Like your testosterone levels go down. Yeah.
I do have a shot against the Yanks. Maybe now you have a shot. Maybe now you can take me on. Yeah, Howie's even more useless. He busted two. Yeah. Well, I don't know if we want to. That's up for him to say, I guess. I don't know. Yeah, you're right. We'll see. Didn't he say it before? Never? Well, we haven't had a podcast since. Oh, right. So he wouldn't have had a chance. That's right. Yeah. Yeah.
No, I get what you're saying. And I agree. And I think we are lucky to have been living in a place and in a time where resources are abundant enough to go around for now. And so it doesn't have to be a zero-sum game. And society doesn't devolve into the Yangs versus the Shangs for the last piece of meat. But it doesn't take much to get there. I'm convinced of that. I've seen enough.
Little examples to make me believe it doesn't take much for society to start unraveling. It really doesn't. I think if our resources were to drop just by 5%, 10%, or 10%, we would already start seeing like havoc. Yeah. You know? Okay, but on the other hand... We're not even actually dropping 5%, 10%, but like just the illusion that they are,
Like stock market's plummeting, things like that, right? Well, and not to sort of show my erudition and my...
24 hour news cycle fanaticism. But my, my understanding is that the folks that won the Nobel prize in economics this year studied like bank runs and like, kind of like this herd mentality when, you know, some people started pulling their money out and then everyone started to do it. And like, you know, I think so to your point,
the ball can unravel very quickly. Yeah. All it takes is for the belief of something happening to
for everything to unravel, even if it's not truly happening, right? Like the myth of it. The story. Or the illusion. Yeah, and that's in Sapiens. Like the stories can create like positivity and you can build the Taj Mahal and the pyramids, but it can also cause like, you know, extreme hyperinflation. Yeah. And yeah, look, I think that's a good term, story, because was that like, I just think like we're living in a world where it's just stories that are flying around us.
And everyone believes in different aspects of that story, different sides of that story. But it's all stories. We're telling ourselves. People are telling us. Stories were being fed. And, you know, at some point or another, it's like, I feel like we have to kind of cut through all of that. It get down to the core of like what we're all about. And I just feel like we get so wrapped up in believing that,
the different stories and narratives that are going on when really that's all it is. Meanwhile, we don't know the reality of everything that's happening and all the nuances and all the befores and afters and all the causes and effects that led up to all these things happening and why and the motives and blah, blah, blah. There's no way we can know all that. But we oversimplify things into simple narratives of good and evil
Usually, you can boil almost any headline down to a matter of good versus evil. And in one headline, the good is winning over the evil. In another headline, they're trying to scare you by telling you that the evil is winning over the good. And that's all it is. And we feel like we get suckered, to use the term herd mentality, we get herded into these stories. And we get herded into these silos of
choosing sides and believing these narratives that it starts consuming us. It really starts consuming us and it starts chipping away at a worldview that we have and altering it into something that I think is just really manipulated. And it also goes back to kind of the idea of like living your life firsthand and living your life through your own eyes and formulating your worldview through your own eyes.
And it's easier said than done, especially in this day and age. But if we zoom out, I really feel like all I see are just different stories flying around and people believing in those stories or not. And it's all consuming almost. At least I get a sense that it's all consuming. Maybe it's not. Maybe I'm blowing it completely out of proportion. But I get the sense that it is. And it's really disheartening to see.
Well, it can be disheartening. And I like what you said. It's the story that keeps us together and it's the story that pulls us apart. And like stories can be incredibly constructive or equally destructive, you know? And so like you have cathedrals and
and art and all these things are the result of like this positive narrative because the story is what weaves everything together and gets everyone to cooperate. Like no one can build a cathedral by themselves, right? And at the same time, a story can cause war. And I'm not like, I have very, very, very, very little knowledge. Like I just have not done, you know, any reading around wars and it's something I want to get into.
But when you look at like World War I and World War II, when you look at the Civil War and then just, you know, any kind of conflict, the Russian-Ukraine, like I don't even know the reasons, the true reasons behind the war and then like the role of the story in, you know, and starting these things, right? And so like you have these, you have symphonies and then you have suffering because of these stories. And what that means, I think, is there's a lot of responsibility involved
for the storytellers that want to make the world better. But at the same time, there's an incredible amount of competition between the storytellers because the storytellers are the ones that can actually set in motion an entire chain of events that could end in a beautiful cathedral or city.
or like mass destruction. And it's so crazy. And like, what's our role in that? What can we do to be a positive storyteller versus someone that's actually causing society to fall apart? That's a great point. And I think the fucked up thing is, is that often those things are one in the same. So like to take your example, the same exact story that built those cathedrals,
those these beautiful works of art, these monuments to the heavens that bring people together. That same story is the same story that motivated the bloody crusades, some of the bloodiest battles of all time for long periods of time. I mean, how much blood has been spilled in the name of a god or your god versus my god? It's the same story.
So that to me, it's like, it's so messed up in the sense that it's the same thing that creates such beautiful things, but also can be so destructive and so ugly. Yeah. And it's one in the same. It can be. It just depends on what side of that story you take, right? I mean, look at the history of the U.S.,
Like we are in many ways a product of the U.S. and all the great things that come from it. But it was actually rooted in destruction of the people that, you know, were on and owned that land before through disease and all kinds of stuff. And, you know, and then they built up the country through the labor and, you know, the confinement of like,
of other human beings. So it's, I mean, it is very conflicting. It's a very, very conflicting thing. Let me ask you this then. Okay. What values did you follow before your child was born? Oh, geez. What values did I follow? Yeah. I never thought about it. I never thought about it. Well, think about it right now. Like you, you're writing a recap of the first part of your life before you had your child. And, and,
Like you lived your life according to values. Because even if you didn't have values, you were living by some sort of principles. It wasn't completely random to get you to this point. Yeah. So what were those principles that you either consciously or unconsciously
you know, followed. And perhaps you had an aspirational version of it too, right? Like you probably didn't grow up and you were like, I want to be an asshole. Like you might've been an asshole, but you didn't purposely want to be an asshole. But I'm curious, like what values did you actually follow? Because yeah, that's a different narrative than like winners and losers, right? It's sort of like, what's your intention of how you want to impact the world? Yeah, I don't know. I honestly, I don't,
know how much I thought about that, but I mean, one principle, I guess if you would call it that was trust yourself, you know, um, march to the beat of your own drum as best and as much as you can, you know, it's not always going to be possible or realistic, but, you know, you should try to do it as often as you can. Um, you know, and, and I think by doing that,
Some people, I think even including yourself, Eric, have called me like contrarian, which I'm proud. I'm proud to wear that badge, you know, because it means I'm doing something right according to my values at least, right? So I don't know. Like, I just feel I've said this multiple times already, but it's living your life firsthand, I guess, would be the best value.
I would have been living by in the recent times. And to me, that is cutting through all the things where we've been talking about, because if you truly live your life firsthand, then that will shape your worldview. And, you know, you'll have your own beliefs through that, but at least you can be somewhat confident. Those are all your own beliefs and not beliefs you're being manipulated with by soaking in artificial information.
media and information, you know? You're not buying into someone else's story so much as you're buying into your own story, if that makes any sense, as best as you can, right? Those sound, you know, you said trust yourself, march to the beat of your own drummer as much as you can, contrarian, living your life's firsthand. I wouldn't contradict you. Like, I mean, I haven't known you since you were born, but I have known you for...
uh, more than a decade, a decade. And I would say, yeah, I mean, I, I've seen this, uh, I've seen evidence of what you're saying and, and, and these things do sound positive because I think a lot of the negative outcomes happen when, you know, you have this sort of like,
you just jump on the bandwagon. You don't process things. You don't really think things through. And you see like a lot of negative outcomes when everyone just like goes in one direction, but it's like the wrong fucking direction. And that's happened countless times in history. And sometimes like you don't have a choice, but sometimes you do have a choice. And, and I think there's a lot of positive outcomes where, uh,
you know, people did march to the beat of their own drummer or, um, to their values. And then, you know, they were able to, uh, do something very positive. So I think in general, the values and the principles that you've been, you know, living by are, are, um, positive. I'm curious then we're still sort of like pre childbirth. So these values that you followed, uh,
to some extent, probably not always super consistently, right? Because like, you know, there are probably moments in your life where you were doing things that you didn't want to be doing. Yeah, man, I'm only human. Right, yeah, yeah. I mean, like, you know, there's probably, you're not in jail, you know, like, you know, you're not like,
You don't have any felonies that I'm aware of at this point. But okay, so you follow these values. You were shaped by your family. Overall, it seems like a positive narrative. Like you're a good guy. Like I view you as one of my best friends. You're going to be at my wedding, et cetera, et cetera, right? So it kind of worked out.
In your own words, what was the outcome then of these principles you had up until before your child was born? Like, do kind of a review, a movie review of your life. I don't know if that's too personal, but... But I don't even know what that's supposed to mean. You know, like, I kind of get what you're saying, where you're coming from, but I don't really know. Well, so you... Okay, and the reason I ask this question is that
You said earlier that like you were kind of selfish before and then you had the kid recently and then now everything's sort of changed and like your values have shifted a little bit, right? So I'm trying to get a sense, number one, of like what your values and principles were before and then how they've shifted and what will stay the same and what will change. Okay, so that's a bigger arc. But then more specifically, I want to just know like your previous values, how they've served you. Because like it did get you to a point where you married a wonderful woman and...
And you have a beautiful kid. So it kind of worked out for you. And we like to beat ourselves up all the time and like be all emo. And like, we're always trying to get better and we're fighting for this and what's success like and how do I succeed? Right. So based on your previous definition of success and winning, like, how'd you do? Are you the fucking, yeah. Are you like the fucking, uh, the Clippers or, I mean like the old Clippers or. Or the current Lakers really. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Are you like Russell Westbrook or what? Yeah.
Ouch, man. That's rock bottom right there. Okay, so two questions. To answer your first one is I don't think my principles have changed. I think the principles are the same except before the spotlight was on me and now the spotlight has shifted over to somebody else. But the principles remain the same. I feel like trusting yourself and living your life firsthand and
you know, questioning the stories you're told and what you're reading and people are saying and, you know, all the things and all the stories that are floating around us. I think I would pass that, I would try to pass that message along to my kid for sure. So the principles haven't changed. It's just that now the spotlight isn't on me anymore. I'm not the star of the show anymore. You just want your son to, uh,
get the spotlight and then, you know, and then, and bring your values to life. I mean, it's still a little bit selfish, right? You're not going to let him. It is. Like you want him to beat. It's like living vicariously through him. And not only that, if I hear what I'm, maybe if I hear what you're saying, it's like, you want him to be marked to the beat of your drums. no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's like a little, little Justin. It's like a little Justin, like, welcome to the honest. Yeah.
Okay, to be perfectly honest, I have already fantasized about him one day taking over this podcast. Oh my God. It's like, if it wasn't enough to have you, your son's going to come on the show and be long-winded. No, I'm just kidding. Oh God, wouldn't that be a trip though, one day? Wouldn't that be a trip? Okay, but your second question is like, okay, well, how did it all work out? Yeah, now. Up until this point. Yeah. Right? Yeah.
I don't know. And I'm not even sure if that is up for me to say, because then again, like we always preach on this show. It's like we have the worst seat in the house. So I don't know if that is even up for me to say how well I have done up until this point. I don't know if I have a good perspective on that because we are our own worst critic, but at the same time, we can also be our own biggest cheerleader. So yeah,
Look, I think on paper, I think on paper, I feel like I've done pretty well. I think on paper, if you look at me, you'll be like, what? You have nothing to complain about. Like you're living like a really privileged life. So in that sense, like I feel like, yeah, like, I mean, it's been pretty successful. But then there's a whole nother side of me that feels like I'm a fraud. Still. Still.
Still. Every day. Every day. I fight that feeling every single day. And I don't know where it's coming from exactly, but I do fight that. I fight this feeling like you're just a fraud. In what? Like in your relationships? Like you secretly hate all of us, but you're just like, hey. No, no, no, no. Like you just look good on paper, but you haven't really done anything.
At all. Does your wife feel that way? Like, do you take care of her? You give her heavy, like, hard massages that injure her? I mean, I don't know. Like, she's probably one of the best decisions I've ever made is to be with her. And I think we work really well together. From her perspective, I don't know. She would have to tell you. But I would guess that she probably doesn't see me that way, that I'm a fraud.
But who knows? Maybe she does. Well, she called me yesterday. You would have to ask her. She told me her opinion. I was surprised. He's a complete fraud. We're not even married anymore. He's never even told you that? We've been divorced for a long time. Yeah, that baby? Yeah. He's never even seen the kid. He has a restraining order against the kid. Yeah.
Oh, that's, but that's scary. Like, like I, I don't know if I feel like, sorry to interject just for a moment. Like, I, I don't know if I, I do have this feeling of being a fraud all the time. Um, but, uh,
You know, the severity of it changes, right? But yeah, like when it's bad though, and you wake up in the middle of the night and you're like, oh my God, everyone around me, not even my parents love me because I'm a fraud. That it's like, then you start sweating and like, you know, and then that moment it feels so true. And then you wake up and you're like, oh, what the fuck was I thinking? Yeah.
But I have had some of those cold sweats where you literally wake up and you're like, I am such a fraud. My parents are probably, they don't even really care about me. But you know that's not true, you know, obviously. But it's weird how your mind can play tricks on you. But is it playing tricks on you or is it trying to tell you a piece of truth? You know, not that it might be all true, but there might be a seed of truth in where that feeling is coming from, right? Yeah.
So I don't know how common that feeling is. It's like your checks and balances for not, I think that is your mechanism in your brain for like your safety mechanism for not turning into a psychopath or sociopath. I think sociopaths don't have that thing. Yeah. So they don't ever think they're a fraud, obviously. Like sociopaths and psychopaths don't think they're psychopaths.
No. They think they're totally fucking normal. Yeah. They're like killing people and it's like, that's cool. They think everyone else is weird. Yeah, they're like, Justin, you're not killing anyone. What's wrong with you? You are a sociopath. You're crazy. I think, you know, like thinking yourself as a fraud, as long as it's not like
you know, overwhelming and debilitating. It's a checks and balances to keep you like, to keep you sort of in check that like, okay, am I operating and just in this weird, my own little bubble or do I really know my impact on other people? That's the thing that I'm sometimes I feel like I'm a fraud at. It's like, do I really know my impact on others or am I just too self-centered? Like that scares me sometimes. Like, God, I'm just thinking about myself all the time and people just,
I don't even think about them. That's interesting. That's interesting. So that's kind of how you view, like that's what your fraud is rooted in, is that you feel like you're not as caring of others as you present yourself to be? A slight, I'll adjust that a little bit. It's that I'm too self-centered and I go into conversations thinking,
and people are humoring me but clearly i'm not like caring enough about them and then you know and later on i reflect like how could i've just been thinking about myself i should have thought more about them it's not like fake caring it's like i just wish i would have cared more like you did better yeah yeah like like why was i so uh just so into myself but maybe that's kind of what you oh i get the feeling all the time from you yeah um
No, I get that. That's interesting, though. That's interesting because my fraud is rooted in the different. It's not that. My fraud is rooted in just a simple question of like, what have you really done? I have that one, too. Like, you haven't done jack shit, like Mr. Big Shot. You know, like you haven't done anything. Like, you truly haven't done anything. And that's my fraud.
That's also mine. Like I have that. I have that one and I have the one where it's like, I'm so, I think the world revolves around me kind of thing. And I'm like, God, like I wonder if people feel like
I give off that aura because sometimes I get so into my own thinking and I don't want to be that. I'm actually, I think I'm a fairly thoughtful person, but I worry that I'm not. I'm worried that people like actually secretly think I'm not a thoughtful person. Wow. You're worried that other people think you're not a thoughtful person. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Okay. Okay. Wow. I'm just, huh? Why? Why do you worry? I mean, that's a silly question. Why? I mean, it just is right. Like,
Because we're all selfish, right? Yeah, but does that, like, where did that stem from? Like, did that, did something happen in the past where being thoughtful of others, like, became, like, a core principle for you? Like, what, like, what happened? Like, why is that so important to you? I think that's a good question. I think that, like, earlier in my life, I didn't have, I mean, I don't know. Like, I mean, it's hard to kind of
It's really hard to kind of make sense of all this stuff. Like, how were you 10 years ago or whatever, right? Like pinpoint one thing that happened that explains this. What were you like, right? But my general sense is that I was probably less thoughtful and more insecure and more focused in my own world for, you know, for part of my life. And...
you know, I wondered if people liked me and maybe these things aren't even related, but I like, I wondered if people actually liked me and if I had like a lot of friends and all that stuff. And then there came to be a point in my life where like, I started learning like other principles, like, oh, like people that have lots of friends actually treat their friends really well. They just treat everyone really well. And they're very thoughtful and they're giving and,
And then I had a reflection that maybe I wasn't like quite practicing all those things. And so maybe then I started focusing more on that and then overcompensating and then getting too much into my head on, am I doing enough so that people, you know, think that I'm a good person. So then you kind of go back and forth and all this stuff. And I will say I met some people
you know, at some point, like a long time ago that became really good friends with me. And they like walked on water with people. Like they were just like magical and like, and I got to know them and I'm like, man, these are just good people. Um,
it wasn't like really, at least to what I could ascertain, not their ego, they were just wired differently. And I was like, God, I want to kind of be like that. And then sometimes, you know, you just wonder, you might overcompensate or undercompensate. Overcompensating is huge. And that applies to a lot of different aspects, right? Like it can apply to relationships and crushes you have, right? Like,
it can apply to almost anything. And that's, that's a huge thing like that. A lot of my regrets in life or embarrassing moments in life have, have because was because I was like trying to overcompensate for something. Right. Like, and to go back to your thing, like that's interesting because from what I'm hearing, it seems like it's rooting all back to you wanting to be liked. You want to have being liked by people and,
you know, having friends and, you know, kind of being that Mr. Popular that other people are saying walks on water, just like you're saying about others. Right. Um, and it's fascinating to me that I can't take criticism. Like, so part of that, I think is that, and when I think about it, um,
Like if someone has a negative comment or thought about me, it really hurts me. Yeah. Because it's adding fuel to that fire and it's giving people in your eyes just one more excuse for them not to like you. Yeah. Right. And it's like, it's, and now I think about it, I don't know if I've ever thought about it this way, but it's like, I always want to get better and I can generally take criticism because I recognize that
I have lots of areas to improve and that incremental compounding improvement makes you a better person. So philosophically... Well, you've gotten a lot better over the years. I've seen it. Howie and I have both seen it. You've gotten leaps and bounds better at taking criticism. I get the sense. Yeah, I appreciate that. And philosophically, I'm okay with it. Okay? Like in the notion, if I discover something about myself, I'm my harshest critic and I want to improve. Okay.
But hearing it from someone else is sometimes painful. It hurts because it's like you want to be liked and you feel insecure. So it's like, it's another thing, right? Like the feedback could be valid. And if I found out about it some other way, I could just, you know, I'd embrace it. But if there's someone who's like, oh yeah, that Eric guy, like I don't like him. He's a dick or he does this, then it hurts. Yeah.
And I think that the reason that it hurts so much, because like criticism doesn't impact my wife as much. Like she'll process it. And if it's true, she'll work on it, but she doesn't take it personally. And I think the reason that I take it so personally is because, you know, I experienced so much criticism growing up and it was very personal. It was directed at me in a very personal way. And it was not, you know, I don't blame my parents now, but
Right. They were trying to do the best that they could, but it came across as very, very personal because they were so invested in my success. So that criticism was harsh. Like you're basically, you're a fucking loser. If you keep doing this, it's like the Asian Chinese mentality. It's like real tough, not even tough love.
It's like abusive love. It's like abusive humiliation. It's like beating the shit out of you kind of love, like I'm going to either kill you or you're going to be great. Yeah, yeah. Like literally it's like... You're either going to die or you're going to be great. There's no middle ground here. It's like my parents are like, just call me Darwin. You know what I'm saying? Like...
And you will either die or be great. It's like throwing you in the middle of the ocean. It's either you swim to shore or you drown. Yeah. And not only that, like not just throwing you in the middle of the ocean, they're going to be like, and I'm not going to give you any life preservers and I'm going to put rocks in your pocket. Rocks. Like just to fuck with you. I'm going to throw a few sharks your way. Exactly. You better get ready for those. Yeah. Exactly. Shamu's coming for you. Okay.
Okay, can I play armchair psychologist for a second? Yeah, for sure. You are the armchair. Justin Yang, the armchair psychologist. So what I'm hearing, or not what I'm hearing, but what I'm getting from what you've said, I think is somehow relates to maybe a subconscious belief that you feel that in order to be liked, you have to be perfect. Right.
And I think it goes back to this idea of perfection and it relates, goes back to your upbringing. And I'm sure from what you've told me, your parents were trying to make you perfect, right? Like it was perfection. Like an A minus wasn't good enough. It had to be an A plus. Yeah.
And it wasn't obviously positioned that way. It was that they were so hypercritical that then the de facto outcome was that you had to be perfect. Exactly. And so that relates, I think, to your outlook of making friends and people liking you. And I think somehow there's a thread that connects that in order for people to like you, you feel you also need to be perfect. Right.
So what happens when someone gives you a criticism, right? Even if it's just one thing. Well, that one thing exposes the fact that you're not perfect anymore. And if you're not perfect, the reason why it hurts so much is because if you're not perfect, they won't like you because you had to be perfect for people to like you.
And I think that's why it hurts so much for you. And I think that's why you take it so personally. Yeah. Because it's just like you said, it's all or nothing, right? You either swim to that shore or you drown. Yeah. And if there's a criticism in there, that means you've drowned because that means you weren't perfect enough to swim to shore. And I think you have to get over that, right? Obviously, easier said than done, blah, blah, blah. But like, dude, like you don't have to be perfect for people to like you. And often people,
And in my experience is the more perfect someone seems, the more people don't like them. Like people don't want to like a perfect person. Like that's not really relatable. That's not charming. So I don't think like those two things are related. And this idea of perfection doesn't even exist anyway. Yeah.
And also the idea of I don't know and I don't feel that there is a correlation between people who seem like they care more about others and the number of friends they have.
I don't know if those are exactly correlated. I don't see that necessarily. I feel like I know a lot of people who seem very popular, who seem like they know a bunch of people, have a lot of friends, everyone knows them, ha ha, he he he. But they seem pretty self-centered to me. They don't seem like they're out there fucking Mother Teresa caring about others. It doesn't seem like they're that type. I haven't really seen much evidence of that, yet they have a lot of friends.
I haven't seen that. In fact, some people that I know that I feel do care deeply about others are usually a little more reclusive and they spend most of their time doing things behind the scenes to help others versus being like Mr. Popular, you know, out there, you know, toasting with everybody. Right. So, yeah. Yeah. So I don't know if those two things are connected. And then the reason why I'm saying this to you is because
you know, hopefully maybe some of this seeps in and maybe helps you relieve some of that feeling of fraud, right? Because you don't have to be perfect for people to like you at all. And you don't necessarily always have to give off the whole feeling of like you're caring about others for people to like you as well. Like, you know, like, I don't know. Personally, I've always felt like the whole...
I just feel like people are self-centered and I don't feel that's necessarily a bad thing. And I think it depends how you treat other people. Like I feel like you can be totally self-centered, but treat other people with dignity, with respect and be generous all at the same time. I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive. And I think in the reality of life and in the world, everyone needs to look out for themselves because no one else is going to do it for you. We are in the wild.
There are a lot of correlations or maybe myths of correlations that are people's heads, right? But like, I mean, it gets complicated. There are people that on the surface everyone loves and yet they're the most insecure, you know? And then there are people that just actually don't give a shit. And, you know, I mean, it...
It is interesting. It is very interesting. Well, like simply like in my experience, the more I've, I've, I tried to be liked, I feel like the less successful I was of being liked. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And that goes back to the overcompensating thing because the harder you try, the more you overcompensate and it just doesn't come off natural anymore. And, and people, I feel like they see right through that. And then you become the fraud by trying. Right. And when you don't try, you're,
you know, things happen and you form these great relationships. It goes back to what you're looking for. Like, it goes back to what your values are. Otherwise, you are trying to achieve something that's not meaningful to you, right? You're trying to, like, you succeed in that kind of surface outcome, but you're not actually truly successful. Like, I don't know, like, a random example is like Johnny Carson. Most people probably haven't heard of Johnny Carson, but...
He was probably like one of the most famous, like he was a legendary talk show, you know, host, right? Late night talk show host, right? Late night talk show host, right? Like he was- From the US. The OG, right? Like the OG. Before Conan O'Brien, before Jay Leno, before David Letterman. Yeah. But he's still famous, right? Like he's a legend. Like he's one that, you know, even if you didn't watch him, like you've heard of him, right? Yeah.
And I just, like, I remember reading an article just randomly about him. And it was interesting because, like, he was Mr. Cool. Like, whatever, back in the day, like, whatever years that he was hosting, he was, like, Mr. Cool. Everyone loved him. Like, he was the dominant figure. He was way bigger than any of the guys now, right? But he was actually a complete, like, recluse. Like, he lived in solitary. And, like, he was, I think, highly insecure and all this stuff.
And so like everything he was doing was to, you know, maybe create this persona, but he must not have been happy, you know, like because he was totally different than his persona, like on TV. So it's almost like be very careful of what you wish for because you can ultimately, anyone can probably be the most popular person. Everyone loves you, but then you hate yourself because you're not you. So it's like, it's interesting to kind of find that, um,
you know, that middle ground, right? And that, and when you grow up, I think you have like little quirks and things like that, that you don't recognize your impact on others. And, you know, to some point, to some extent, you need to kind of refine yourself and polish yourself a little bit, just because like, you can't be like completely wild out there. Like there are social, like, uh,
kind of customs and and and and these types of things right so like you kind of don't want to have sharp edges like you don't want to like every time someone hangs out with you like someone gets cut and like their liver starts bleeding because you're just so abrasive right and um but at the same time you don't want to polish yourself down to just like a generic like ball right
Like it's your, it's, it's, it's all the little, you know, nuances and little rough edges here and there that make you, uh, you know, compelling to others. If you don't have like good relationships as a human, like as a, you know, a human being, I mean, then like you, you're dead. Like, I mean, you know, modern society, it's, you know, it's a little bit different, but for most of like human existence, um,
If you were ostracized, you were isolated, game over. Like everyone has it, like everyone has it programmed in them to some extent that they want to make others like them and they don't want to stick out in a negative way and they want to be able to get resources and they want to be able to be part of the group. So it's all wired sort of within us. And we're fighting that a little bit because again, it's the over-indexing or the overcompensating piece where...
you know, we're going too far. But luckily though, I mean, in many ways, you and I, I don't, you know, we're okay because we're,
We only have one friend. You have one friend. I have one friend. We're not friends with each other, but we're both friends with Howie. He's actually quite a likable guy. So you and I are unique to the listeners. We actually hate each other. Yeah, we hate each other. No one likes us. We've got pretty sharp edges, but Howie is a very likable guy. And so we each, each of us, Justin, myself, we have one friend. His name is Howie Lamb.
It's a delicate balance. Yeah. Like, I think, and maybe in a previous show when we were talking about kids, I was like, I just want my kid to be comfortable in their own skin, right? But with the caveat that, like, they're not a psychopath, you know what I'm saying? Like, so it is that balance. It's like, you need to function and survive in the network of people in the world. That's how it's always been. Like, if you grew up
in the middle of the forest alone, you'd be eaten up like within hours and you're done. You're game over, right? So you need to have relationships and people that are on your side in your life. And at the same time, like you want to be able to be
about your own identity. And so it is that delicate balance because we all are super duper unique. No, I mean, it's not a cliche. We're all completely unique. Like our personality, the reason that there's so much conflict is because people are so different. They have different ideas and different beliefs and everything is so distinctive. And we want to embrace that. And at the same time, we don't want to do it in a way that's destructive to relationships. And it's very, it's hard. And that's, I think,
what children do until they're like probably 15 years old. It takes like people 15 years to get to a point. I think it takes your whole life. Even longer, yeah. But like, but you know, by 15, you can kind of tell like, you know, who has friends and who doesn't and all that kind of stuff, right? Like, I mean. Well, it's still kind of young, right? Like I went from zero to one when I met Howie. You know, because it's funny because we keep,
kind of deferring it to like, oh, I want my kid to feel that way. When we're really talking about ourselves as well. We're definitely talking about ourselves as well because that's where all these worries come from. Our kid doesn't have any of these worries. They haven't shown. My kid was just born. He hasn't shown any evidence of having any of these concerns. Yet I have these concerns for him. Why? Because I have these concerns for myself. Yeah. Okay. Cheers, brother. Cheers.
Hey, should we FaceTime Howie real quick? Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it. Okay. I'm going to do it right now. Okay. Like while we're still recording? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. You know, it should be easy to find his name because I only have one friend. You only have one friend. Yeah. I don't know why it's taking me so long. All I have to do is just press. You only have one contact. Yeah, I have one contact. Yeah, you're not even in there. Come on, Howie. Like, let's prove to the world that I'm actually somewhat likable. Yeah, let's do a test. If he doesn't pick up for you, let me call him and see if he picks up.
Oh, yes. I'm cooking. You got like a Beijing on. Let me see. Let me see. Let me see. Yeah. I'm cooking right now. Wow. He's cooking. He's cooking. He's cooking. How many mouths are you cooking for? Oh, wow. Hey, Vivi. Is she breastfeeding? Yeah. She's like, don't. Ask him if we can announce. Ask him if we can announce his news on there right now. Can we announce? Tell him we're recording. We're recording. Can you announce or what?
Are you going to announce this? What? Sure, we can announce. Okay, I have you on the microphone. Announce. I got my twins out. We are out. And I am not sleeping. Okay. Yeah. You and all the new fathers. Yeah. So Howie has his twins. They were born. And they were born three days after my son was born. Yeah. And this was all just a couple days ago, so...
That's right. Everything is hectic right now. Yeah. It's a crazy world. It's a crazy world. Okay. Cheers. All right. Cheers, buddy. My new friend, Justin. Finally. We'll see. I haven't accepted your friend request yet. Well, you got a lot at stake too, okay? Don't forget that. All right. Well, let's end it there. All right. All right, man. It was good talking to you, brother. Yeah. All right. Well, that's it for today. Be good. Be well. Peace. The rest of the sun will see my bright eyes.
♪ And wish she knew about time ♪