#118. Tilman Rieger: I'm Ok You're Ok
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What's up, everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. If you've been enjoying the show, go ahead, rate, comment, and subscribe. All right, we got a real special show for you today. We talk about transactional analysis, compassionate communication, or nonviolent communication, positive intelligence, and mental fitness.

What does this all boil down to? It boils down to how we communicate and how we engage with the world and others. Yeah, and it's about not being on autopilot, right? Being aware of how you communicate, the impact you have on others. And ultimately, it makes a difference just between being an average communicator versus being a great communicator and having a lot more positive relationships in your life. Yeah, we talk about your saboteurs.

We talk about your inner voice, and we really talk about intercultural communication, which I think could not come at a more important time than right this second. And we also learn how to react to any situation with a positive approach so you can use all your resources. For instance, if you respond with anger or self-judgment, it uses up all your energy and takes away your focus. You can't be at your best, and so we learn how to take a sage approach to every situation.

For us to really understand each other, get along, and maximize what we get when we do interact with other people. Amen to that, brother. So, without further ado, please give it up for Tillman Rieger. Tillman, welcome to the show, man. Thanks for doing this. Thank you.

Yeah, don't feel pressured to drink, I know. No, it's all good. It's not my favorite drink, but it's okay. Well, I'm glad you're taking one for the team. Okay, so basically, with my very limited understanding of what you do, in my own mind, I kind of sum it and break it down into, like it all boils down into communication and building relationships and how do you interact with people.

Especially people from different backgrounds and cultures or positions of hierarchy even. So, I mean, is that accurate at all in terms of assessing what you do at all? Yeah, interpersonal communication, including conflict management and then also self-awareness, which goes along with that as well. Well, that's a big one. And that's one I'm always very interested in because...

I think we all lack some self-awareness sometimes in our daily lives. Yeah, it's basically about not being an autopilot, but being aware that the way you communicate is the most appropriate way for the situation rather than just what you're used to or, let's say,

how you get triggered because the trigger itself can trigger something from the past that is then a past reaction that can come out if you don't have the awareness. And if you have the awareness, then you can steer the communication in a way that's more appropriate or more mature with emotional regulation, for example. And all that is what makes the difference between

an average communicator and a skilled communicator. From what I know of you, I know you coach and you talk about a lot of really high level stuff. So forgive me if I'm kind of dumbing it down a little bit because I need to just so I can understand and catch up with what you do. And going to the whole trigger concept, like does what you do

relate to kind of this day and age where, you know, a lot of things are, people have to be a little more politically correct, I think, than times when we were growing up as children. You know, the environment has changed, the culture has changed, society has changed. And when you hear that word trigger, to me, I automatically think of like people in society and pop culture where they get triggered by people saying something that might be

Maybe a little insensitive or controversial. Is that at all applied to kind of what you do in terms of how to communicate with people and how to get across with people without, I guess, creating a conflict? Yeah, so you're referring to that topic of microaggression and all that. Actually, this is really not so much in the area where I or that I deal with. Mm-hmm.

It's more really about communicating in the sense of collaboration. I mean, also in the US, I know also that's part of collaboration, that you are very self-aware or politically correct. I would say that in the area where I work, that doesn't play a huge role. It will probably play more.

bigger role in the future maybe also here in China, but probably not as much as in the US, I guess. Where does it play a role for you? Because we're talking about communication, nonviolent, compassionate communication. Let's start there, I guess. So for nonviolent communication, where it actually started for me...

both at the same time. So transaction analysis is one area that's a psychological framework that I got to know during my coaching training nine years ago. And nonviolent communication was a training that I took or a course that I took also nine years ago at the same time. And both became really my big pillars in the field of communication. So transaction

transactional analysis speaks about or assumes that there are three different ego states from where you communicate and

this is the parenting estate, the adulting estate and the childing estate. And especially the parent and the childing estate have some areas that can go very extreme where it's about, I'm okay, you're not okay. Or I'm okay, I'm not okay, you're okay. Or I'm not okay, then you're also not okay. And these are very similar to actually what...

nonviolent communication is also about and I try to bring them together so nonviolent communication is how to stay in the I'm okay you're okay well okay let me cut you off right there because I think

For the sake of our listeners, because I know Eric is well-educated on this whole concept of transactional analysis, obviously, from you. I have a little bit of exposure to it, but I think for the sake of our listeners, can you explain, first of all, from the very basics of what is the whole concept of I'm okay, you're okay, I'm okay, you're not okay, all those different variations? Yeah. Like, what do you mean by that? Yeah.

So the idea is that we communicate from different ego states and that we have different so-called life positions. So the different life positions are I'm okay, you're okay. I'm okay, you're not okay. I'm not okay, you're okay. Or I'm not okay, you're not okay. But what do you mean by okay? With okay, it's about how I see me, how I see you in terms of value, in terms of

as a person really. I would translate it most into human value. And you can, for example, say that behavior is not okay, but the person itself is okay. And the assumption of transaction analysis, people are okay. So every person, every human being has a human value that cannot be denied.

Well, can you put in like a real world life example of a situation that would be, I'm okay, you're not okay, for example. Just again, so our listeners can fully comprehend. Because I think that's really important to fully understand there before we go on with the conversation. Otherwise, it might be confusing. Yeah. So, for example, when you...

you see something that you don't like, that someone is doing, you can think that something is wrong with the person. That you must be so stupid that you do this. And that would be a typical, I'm okay, you're not okay. Like, this guy's a dumbass. Yeah. Like, okay, so a common thing that we see in society is like, and connecting this back to Justin's kind of some of the things

The discussions we had on social media is like there's a lot of criticism and judgment and kind of like toxic stuff on social media and the web, right? So what would that be? Like so if you see people and then they're just like really, really angry and they're judging and they're like, these guys are a bunch of freaking idiots. What is that? Yeah, definitely okay, not okay.

So who's okay? Well, those that are judging think they are okay. They are okay-er, so to say. They are more okay than others. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, I think to like in layman's terms, it'd just be like being very judgmental of people, right? Yes, absolutely. Criticizing judgment. Which we're all guilty of like from time to time. So like then is that not normal then? Because you have this language that says like you –

you have this matrix, right? Like, okay and not okay. And then, so what is that particular, I'm okay, you're not okay. What's the implication of that? Is that, are we trying to, like, is your job to minimize that?

Yeah. So the, my job is to minimize that. Yes, I would say, um, especially to increase the awareness when you're doing it. Um, because it is very normal that we do this. Um, but it is not so healthy and it, the, the out output or the outcome is normally not as good as it could be if we approach each other from I'm okay, you're okay. Uh,

So one of the reasons for it is that normally the reaction of someone saying, I'm okay, you're not okay, is that the other person goes in defense, tries to fight back or to comply, but become very passive. And very often what I realized that when leaders come out,

to, to be coached. And, uh, they go into this, um, they complain about all the employees. They are just not adult enough. They are, they are just, uh, just not responsible. Yeah. Lazy. Yeah. Whatever they, they're complaining a lot about them and the way they're talking, they're always in, I'm okay. They are not okay. Um, and, um,

And yes, maybe they are conditioned in this way, but if as long as the leader does not change the way from I'm okay, you're not okay to I'm okay, you're okay,

Nothing will change. And that is where the awareness comes in, that you realize that you have to make a change on your side. And actually, you have to be a bit more, you have to be patient because the people around you that got used to you telling them they are not okay, they first have to get used to the idea that they actually know okay.

So this is a bumpy road, and there's always a danger that you create self-fulfilling prophecies by, well, let's say you say for a while you try this way, but then the other people stay in, I'm not okay, you're okay. And in the end, you have the confirmation, yeah, it doesn't work. So I have to go back to, I'm okay, you're not okay. So this is really interesting because I've never...

I have very, very, very, very minimal understanding, but I've heard the terms. I'm not okay, you're okay, that kind of stuff, right? But it's really interesting because I've never really thought about it applied to leadership. So what if we took some examples, like Elon Musk, for instance, right? Can you share a few examples of leaders that we might all know about? Yeah, from known leaders...

Donald Trump. Donald Trump. Yeah, actually, I take him a lot for the analysis of the different ego states. I think a lot of people do that. Yeah, actually, it's very easy with him. And it's also good because everyone knows him and his behavior is very clear in terms of how...

how he shows up in media at least. We don't know if maybe privately he's a little different. Yeah, he's totally like different. Um,

So actually it's a good opportunity to introduce the different ego states because that's where you can really show it with Trump. Can I do that? Yeah, go ahead. So there's the controlling parent ego state, which is basically this I'm okay, you're not okay. The controlling parent ego state? Yeah, controlling parent ego state. So there are three different ego states, parent ego state, adult ego state, and child ego state.

And the parent ego state has two different ego states, so sub-ego states. One is the controlling parent ego state, and that is all about judging, criticizing, looking down on people, being arrogant, and talking bad about people. I'm okay, you're not okay. That's the extreme. There's also a positive side from I'm okay, you're okay. That is more the assertiveness side.

um, the, um, the ability to, um,

Critical thinking, I would counter that. Structuring. Leading in a way of power with others rather than power over others. Like a captain of a sports team. Yeah. Like, hey, let's go do this. Exactly. So, hey, how about we go this direction? Yeah. Rather than you idiots, you don't know where to go. You have to go follow me. Which one is Justin? Yeah. Let's see. Moving on. Okay.

Okay, so that's the controlling perinatal state. And if I ask participants in a training, where would you see him on a scale from 1 to 10, they all say 10, 9, 10 for Donald Trump on that scale. Controlling parent. But then he also acts like a total baby, though. Yeah, yeah. We're not there yet. We're not finished. So then there's the nurturing perinatal state. And the nurturing perinatal state is also I'm okay, you're not okay yet, right?

This is kind of the idea that you're overprotecting, overnurturing, and going into this helping without permission and helicopter parenting in a way that… Cuddling. Yeah, cuddling and marshmallowing in a way that you…

You don't let the person grow up. It's about keeping them dependent. Sometimes it can be out of good intention. And if you look at it in the Chinese culture, you see that care is a very strong value in the Chinese culture.

And so there's a tendency to express care or love through care in a way that you go beyond where you're actually doing good for the people around you because you're over-caring. And this over-caring, I think one of the best examples on the streets that you can see is when people carry their dog. You see that all the time that people have their walk with their dog in their arms. And that is actually a sign of over-caring and over-caring.

of nurturing perinatal state.

Like over-nurturing. Over-nurturing. But the I'm okay, you're okay nurturing perinatal state is if you're empathetic, if you have emotional understanding, if you encourage people, if you support people, if you help them when you ask. Because the person carrying the dog is like, okay, the dog's, I'm okay, but the dog's not okay to walk on his own. Not yet. Yeah, so I got to carry this dog and protect it.

because this dog is not okay. Or not able to protect himself. This kind of the idea behind maybe it could be dangerous, I have to protect. But you can take it too far when it becomes like the default state because whether it's a child or a dog or whether it's someone on your team or a student, they change. And if you don't have the awareness that they're growing...

in a direction and becoming more self-sufficient and then your default mode is always just assume that they need more attention and care that could be a bad thing because then you don't give them the opportunity to make mistakes on their own absolutely it's so interesting like in the concept context of leadership absolutely yeah so they are also leaders they are over caring and then they end up doing things on themselves or by themselves all the time because they don't

actually challenge the employees because they think they're not good enough yet. They can't do it. So it's also, I'm okay, you're not okay. But more from that caring perspective. And then...

You have the functional adult ego state. It's like the really pure, unemotional, logical, analytical information exchange part where everything is about task orientation, objectivity, neutrality. What's an example of that? Yeah, for example, if you...

If you ask for information and let's say you ask me what time is it and I tell you the time, that would be functional adultic state. It's just an information exchange without any emotions involved. And it's basically in many situations very good to keep it there, especially in the professional environment. But if someone is only like that all the time,

They're very uninspiring, boring, rather distant sometimes, even seen as arrogant in the way that you cannot connect to them because they're not showing any emotions. And you have that a lot among people that are dealing a lot with numbers. They're just more focused on this part. Yeah.

And then you have the child legal state and the child legal state is divided into two, three. So one is the adaptive child legal state. That's I'm okay, I'm not okay, you're okay. That's when you feel insecure, when you feel weak, small and you're pleasing others. My needs do not count, the needs of others are more important.

you're overly humble and you really do not consider yourself as worthy. - I think to this particular ego state, I remember in one of your seminars, you made an example of cultural, it was in the cultural context of China. And I think, I forget exactly what it was, but I think it was like when, you know, in Chinese culture, when you're hosting guests

or, or, you know, or, or big customers and in the, the politeness, like the overly politeness, the overly humbleness of, you know, the guest is the King here and, or, or like the boss is the King here and nothing we do. We're just like humble servants or like, you know, I'm not explaining it right. I remember. So can you explain it in that context? I think that's really relevant. Absolutely. So I, I use it for, um, comparing cultures, uh,

on the level when you respect each other, when you want to show respect to each other. In the Chinese culture, you normally approach someone from the adept to childlike state. Of course, that doesn't mean that you really mean it in terms of that you really consider yourself not being okay, but you demonstrate a level of humbleness that...

that is basically saying something like, I'm not so okay, but you, and you give face to the other person, you are absolutely amazing. So you go down in humbleness and give the other person face, which actually is kind of a gift of emotional safety in this moment. So you make the other person the gift of emotional safety. I'm not threatening you. I'm not going to be dangerous for you. And I even admire you. So you make people feel good.

And in return, you expect the other person to do exactly the same. You have the famous Nali Nali. So who do you mean? No, no, it's not me. You are the great one. I'm actually just lucky that I got where I am. And so it's like a crossing. So you're from one from bottom up and the other person also from bottom up. And then the two lines cross. And then in the middle, you meet with I'm okay, you're okay. Does this, I just had a random thought.

Does this apply to like Japanese culture because they have like all those levels of respect and like how deeply you bow and like that kind of stuff? Is there any relationship to that? I'm not familiar enough with the Japanese culture, but I would say it applies to East Asian cultures because that has to do with Confucius.

And I keep on, yeah, I sometimes joke that Confucius was the first person to use transactional analysis without knowing it. So he invented that doctrine of the five relationships with father to son, elder brother to younger brother. Oh, wow.

Emperor to subject. Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what it is. Yeah, husband to wife. Actually, in Shanghai, he made the exception wife to husband. And then elder brother to younger brother. And that is actually just a description of the parent ego state to the adapted child ego state.

Now, the tricky thing is, and that actually explains a lot about the Chinese culture or the East Asian culture, is that there's another ego state that is kind of the flip side of the adaptive child ego state. And that ego state is not allowed for Confucius because it's threatening harmony.

What ego state is that? That's the rebellious child ego state. Rebellious. And the rebellious child ego state is about fighting back. It's actually about protection, but it's...

motto of punishment, seeing yourself as a victim. And you could describe it with this, I'm not okay, you're not okay. Like, if you make me feel not okay, then I make you not feel okay. Oh, Trump. Yeah, exactly. So it's that where Trump would score a 10. And the rebellious child-rearing state has the motive of, I don't feel safe, I need to protect myself.

And in the good side, in a good part, the I'm okay, you're okay of the rebellious child-eater state is about saying no when you should say no.

saying stop when your values are threatened, for example. So it's very important to have that ability as well to protect yourself, to protect your resources, to say no when you should say no. And that's where many Eastern Asians struggle with it to the outside, which of course does not mean that they don't feel that.

There are three levels. There's the feeling, the thinking, and the behavior. And on the behavioral side, the Asians or the Eastern Asians often struggle with

contradicting in public or challenging or going outside saying no or something. Like they're more non-confrontational? Yeah. And that's the adaptive childhood state that is just stronger because it's conditioned through school, through parenting and yeah, just the whole culture. So, okay, let me ask you, I mean, this could sound like a really stupid question to you, but

Like, what's the end game in all of this? Like, why should anyone care about all this? Like, going into depth about all these ego states and this whole kind of concept of transactional analysis. Because, like, to me, like, it seems pretty confusing at first because you're hearing all these ego states and how they interact with the other ego states. And there's all these different, like, variations of how they do it.

you know, why should anyone care about it? Like, what are the consequences for someone who is, let's say, like a controlling parent ego state and then they're like, okay, I'm okay, you're not okay. And that's how they operate, you know, in their life. And to them, they feel like they get results from that. You know, they feel like, okay, I don't need to change because like my life is fine and I feel like I'm getting results from the way I am. Why should I care about this? Why should I have to go through the trouble of,

of being like, okay, well, everyone's okay. Like what's the value in that for them? - Yeah, so when you have a hammer, it's a good tool and you can use it for hammering nails.

Now, when you have only a hammer and there are sometimes not nails in front of you but screws, you will probably still hammer the screws. And that's the same with the ego states and also with other concepts where it's about self-awareness to know what tool to mean or what way, which the most appropriate style to communicate in a certain situation.

So the controlling perinatal state can be the right thing to do or the right ego state to be in in certain situations. But there are some other situations where it is really causing harm. And the general idea is that as long as you stay in this area of I'm okay, you're okay, even for controlling perinatal state,

you can get the most out of a situation or have the most constructive communication. And yes, sometimes there are situations where you even go on purpose into I'm okay, you're not okay. But you do this with awareness.

And then it's different from being triggered and it's an automatic reaction. And it's really about creating that self-awareness that whatever you do and the way you react

Two triggers, two situations is done with awareness. And of course, we will never be able to do this all the time, especially we need resourcefulness. So resourcefulness means we need the energy, we need sleep and food and whatever we need in this moment, not too much stress. We need to have an inner peace and all that balance that helps us to stay aware. And it's a process of catching yourself in the act and connecting

And doing this before it happens, sometimes shortly after, and then changing again. Well, I think for the average person, are there some major themes and takeaways that you have learned and discovered through your own research on all this and your understanding of transactional analysis that people can take away from

without having to dive into the whole exercise of the nitty-gritty of all the ego states and all the subcategories of ego states. For example, one of them you already mentioned, and it might all boil down to that, I don't know, is self-awareness. That seems like a huge one. Are there kind of overarching things that

you can talk about that really people can learn from straight away without having to get so into the details of transaction analysis. Yeah, so we can actually take that example that we started describing with regards to the I'm not okay, you're okay when you're in this situation.

this Chinese culture and you communicate like that with Chinese, that is a cultural game that's happening. But it doesn't work with other cultures, not necessarily at least. So in many of the Western cultures, you communicate more from I'm okay, you're okay, directly straight from the start when you meet someone.

And when someone else comes from I'm not okay, you're okay, with the best intention to show humbleness and give you face and give you the impression that they are not dangerous for you, that is actually an invitation for them to look down on you.

And that triggers, of course, a response of inner rebelliousness for the Chinese, meaning that they are not often able to express that freely because of the conditioning of staying in adapted childhood state. And now what can you learn from that situation is that when you meet as a Chinese with Westerners, you have to be very careful in showing too much humbleness,

Of course, you should also not go the other direction either, but stay more in the I'm okay, you're okay, meet the other person at eye level. And that starts with small things because this is not only just what you say. It's the body language, it's the eye contact, it's the tone of voice, everything. And what I often do in trainings to bring awareness to that is I do handshakes with people.

And you can see already the way people shake hands has already all the Confucianism in there. So it starts with they lower their eyes without noticing, sometimes just because they want to find the hand, but already this not...

staying in contact with the other person is already a sign a subtle sign of submission or could be perceived like that like I'm beta you're alpha I'm beta and I mean the Chinese culture is all about that like for example we do cheers is the person has to go lower you know to show respect and

And in the West, in many, I mean, Western culture is so big term, so we have to be careful here, but in many, it is really where you need to meet this person at eye level and the handshake is a sign of, hey, we're here and we connect at that eye level and we have the eye contact all the time and we're not going away.

we're not looking away and that is where there's already some learning from the clients with whom I work. - So to kind of maybe expand on Justin's question, so like who are your main clients and what are the most typical issues that they bring to you that then you're able to apply this stuff to?

So I have Chinese clients often that want to become better in cross-cultural communication or executive presence on the global field. So this would be a good example for increasing your executive presence in an environment where many Westerners...

are present and you need to be perceived at the same eye level and, and be respected and taken seriously. And when you come in with a humble position, you will not, you will have a harder time to be respected. That is, that is one of the things. So this is, yeah. And like, I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of scenarios, but imagine like this person, um,

is a middle level manager and he commands respect with his team here in China. And he wants to be like the general manager or whatever. Right. And then next time there's an opportunity, maybe there's like a foreign person that's also going for the same role, or maybe there's another, uh, Chinese person, but that person was maybe educated in the West and just has a little bit of that cockiness. Um,

So then they're all applying for the job and then corporate is making the decision and they're like, oh, we don't want that dude because he's kind of weak.

But he's actually the most capable. Like the other ones don't even know what the fuck's going on. They just know how to look up when they shake their hands. Yeah, because he comes off as the beta. Yeah, exactly. And I think another thing is like, I think to your point, Tillman, is like there's a lot of probably like misunderstanding that happens, right? Because oftentimes both sides are probably oblivious to what is actually happening, right? From let's say the Chinese cultural side,

they've grown up in a society where, okay, they show respect, they show humbleness, they show that like, okay, I'm going to be very humble, overly polite, and they expect that to be reciprocated. And when it's not, it's almost like a shock. It's like, what the hell is going on here? And it's almost like an insult. Actually, it is an insult for them. And from the other side, let's say the foreigner...

They don't know what's going on because they've grown up in a society where everyone's at eye level and I'm not going to treat you like you're better than me. Hopefully I'm not treating you like you're lower than me, but I'm sure I'm not going to treat you like you're better than me and everyone's kind of on the same level. And so when they see all of a sudden someone being overly polite or the way the term I was using was beta is like, oh, like you said to them and it gives them permission to be like, oh, okay, well, I guess I can step all over this person if I have to.

And kind of both sides are oblivious to what is actually happening. And then when something, an issue does come up, I guess it can, like everyone gets rubbed the wrong way. And maybe communication often breaks down at that point. Or not even communication. The communication is probably still happening, but the internal responses each side is having to what is being communicated or what is happening in front of them is probably a negative at that point. Yeah.

Absolutely. And by the way, I think it's fair to say that it should also go the other way around, that the Westerners, and that's also the other, to answer your question, I also have Western clients who want,

I help with understanding that they need to become aware of not making that interpretation mistake of looking down and thinking they're superior. They would never admit that, but it's still about really understanding that if a Chinese goes into this humble position, it's not about shyness or it's not about they don't know enough or they are not capable. That would be the wrong assumption. It's just

a way of showing respect, which can trigger in us this feeling of superiority. And here again comes the self-awareness. That's where you need to catch yourself in the act and realize that you should not make that wrong judgment. - Or gather more evidence. So if you're in a scenario where you're inclined to second guess because of your cultural background, because of the response from the local person,

and you know that this could be happening, then you gather more information because that person could be actually weak. I mean, like they actually could be weak or they could be strong, but they're just coming off as weak because of your own cultural like blinders. And so then you need to take a little bit more time to kind of assess because if you get in a situation where you're always second guessing because of that, just cultural, you know,

kind of like miss sort of understanding, then you're not gonna be effective because ultimately you mentioned collaboration earlier. You wanna be effective. There should be trust across cultures so that you can get things done. But if there's like signals that are going out that kind of lead you to believe that things aren't happening the way you want them to, then that can compromise your operation.

Yeah, it's the interpretation of those signals, right? They're being interpreted culturally in different ways. You know, like I think the signals themselves are fine, except this is the way they're being interpreted. Right. And, you know, this is like, this brings up, I'm going to overgeneralize, okay? And at the risk of being a little controversial, but I'm going to overgeneralize. You know, to me, it does feel like there definitely is a certain number of

Chinese who do kind of have this resentment towards foreigners sometimes. I feel like that's grown since given the tensions between, you know, the States and China and all this. But I feel like a lot of it comes out of this misunderstanding. Like now that you've explained this to me, Tilmin, it makes perfect sense that it would because the feeling that I get, the way it's explained to me is that

a lot of, not a lot, but some of the Chinese people do feel that these foreigners come in and they feel like they're superior to everybody. And that leads to a resentment. And they're like, oh, they think they can do anything. They just come in here and just, you know, they walk all over us, right? And part of that for maybe the older generation might be historical, but certainly for the younger generation, I don't think it's as much historical as it is

probably their few interactions that they've had with foreigners, and they've gotten this feeling like, oh, this foreigner just thinks like he's, you know, he's God's gift to earth and he's cocky and, you know, he's so full of himself. At least that's how they perceive it, even though that might not actually be what the foreigner is feeling. And to me, I think a lot of it is this misinterpretation. Even for us, like, you know,

like we're like kind of like American born, uh, American born Chinese ABCs.

And even the local population towards ABCs have a little bit of that feeling too. Like they feel like, oh, you come from the States, you feel like you're better than us. There is a certain sub-segment of people that do feel that way. And that also could be because people like us have grown up in a Western culture. So we bring that swagger, we bring that self-confidence, that cockiness, whatever you want to call it, that ego.

And it's getting misinterpreted or even just interpreted in a way where it just doesn't really suit the cultural context here. And it just makes people feel like, especially Chinese people feel like, oh, we're coming from a, I'm okay, you're not okay culture.

Yeah, absolutely. And there's another situation where that also becomes clear and that also goes back to that who could be the right choice question that you had. In a situation where you have Westerners and Chinese in a meeting or in a conference call, the typical situation is the Westerners talk and the Chinese listen.

And that's not because the Chinese have nothing to say or it's not because the Chinese are not capable and have no knowledge that they can share. It's just that they are waiting for a pause never to come. So there are three so-called...

active, so-called active, linear active, multi-active and reactive cultures. So the multi-active cultures are those that are more the South Americans, South European cultures where people are talking over each other.

And it seems as if everyone is talking at the same time. And it's because it's perfectly okay and not disrespectful to interrupt or to just talk at the same time. This is a sign of engagement, and engagement is a sign of respect. Then there are the linear active cultures, which are...

kind of jumping in just right in the moment when the other person's, you can feel the person ends. And that's like, yeah, an art that you develop or a skill you develop culturally. And then there are the so-called reactive cultures. And they have a gap between one person speaking, a pause, and then the other person speaking. And that is where...

When you're not self-aware or you don't have that cross-cultural understanding and it just the conditioning makes it so hard as a Chinese or Eastern Asian to not wait for this gap but to interrupt or to jump into in this moment.

And, and as a consequence of that, you, you have this situation. So there are two things. On the one hand, Chinese have to learn to politely interrupt because it's against their value to interrupt and be disrespectful. So they should,

still honor their value. But they can do it and learn it in a more respectful way or in a respectful way so that they can still interrupt. Dude, that's so crazy. Yeah. Like, because I'm just like Googling like the Lewis model. Yeah, it's the Lewis model. Dude, it's like so crazy because... What's the Lewis model? That's this reactive... The reactive, multi-active, like linear reactive. And it's so interesting that that's a model where you can look at stuff. I have this tendency to just...

And it's not disrespect. It's that as someone saying something, it automatically triggers ideas. And so I'm like, and like instinctively multi-active, but because of,

kind of U.S. culture that's not polite. So then I try to hold back and not jump in. Yeah, you just interrupted me here. Yeah, exactly. But Americans do that. Americans actually sometimes do that. Like, hold on, hold on. Like, right? Yeah, yeah. They do that. Well, we do that all the time on the show. Yeah, but in general, like, we are aware of that. But, like, we're very linear, at least linear. And there's no, and one piece of evidence of that is that

we don't like uncomfortable silences in Pulp Fiction, if you remember. - Yeah, absolutely. - We don't like uncomfortable silences, right? - In any lift in the US, you would never have silence. People would start to talk with a stranger. - And that's why you said, Tillman, they're waiting for the pause that's never to come. Because let's say from the East Asian side, they're waiting for this like definitive pause, this definitive break in the conversation for them to start talking, right?

And from, I guess, the Western side, or at least the American side, pauses are awkward. Silence is awkward in a conversation. Everyone feels uncomfortable. A threat. Yeah. So whenever there's a little bit of a pause, it's their cue. It's like their signal to continue just talking. Yeah. To prevent this pause from lingering on, I guess. And I think...

And this may be unrelated. This is just my mind being hyperactive. But you know how, because it's saying here multi-actives are scattered in Southern Europe, Mediterranean, South American, Arab, South Saharan Africa. This may be a total stereotype, right? So forgive me. Yeah, I wonder how racist this Lewis model is. Yeah, yeah. But I'm just like, when I think about certain areas, I'm like, wow, it seems like they're like arguing all the time.

But arguing is probably them just talking at the same time. - But people say that about Chinese culture all the time. Well, like people who don't really understand the language, they hear like, let's say people speaking Cantonese. People have said this to me. They feel like, oh, are they angry at each other? Are they shouting at each other? Are they fighting? I'm like, no, that's just like a normal conversation. But I guess that's different because that's Chinese with Chinese communication, right? - And it's about the context. For example, in a restaurant,

In a Chinese restaurant, when people are comfortable with each other, they become multi-active. Yeah, absolutely. Everyone's talking over each other. But in a meeting...

where there's kind of caution and hierarchy and all this. Like more formal settings? Yeah, then there's a different setting. Yeah. But the Southern Europeans still are like talking over each other. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Just like yelling at each other. Yeah, and there's another aspect to that. When we talk about culture, the way how you look at the subject and the person. So in Western cultures, we often have like the subject –

and then the belt line, and then the person. So you know you don't shoot below the belt. You don't box below the belt. So you can attack the subject like hell and afterwards go for a drink. So that's kind of this separation that we use to address topics and really go to –

uh yeah and and challenge you can go hard yeah and you can like argue but you're never gonna like talk shit about him personally are you fucking idiot like but you'll be like no i totally disagree with what you're saying exactly and now in the chinese culture there is a mix between person and subject and that's why actually there there's indirect communication so you're just touching it like that because if you attack it

you always attack the person with it. And that's why there's the indirect communication versus the direct communication because the person, the subject is always together. Wow. Yeah, that's really profound. I think I find that to be pretty true, right? Because I feel in Chinese culture, again, I'm generalizing from, but just from my experience, I feel like there's more emphasis when it comes to situations where

you need to critique somebody, maybe, for example. I find it's a trickier tightrope to walk, talking with Chinese people in terms of possibly giving them loss of face, insulting them, because it is. The topic and the person are kind of intertwined. And in the West, you still have that. That definitely exists in the West, for sure. To different degrees.

But I feel like it's easier to have that conversation a little bit. Be like, look, this isn't personal, but you got to do this, this, this, and this, that. And I feel in China, you can obviously do that. And people do. But I feel like there is a heightened level of sensitivity to be like, okay, well, I got to be careful with my words here and how I approach this because I don't want to, I don't want to,

come off as like I'm disrespecting the person as well. - And of course it always, it's important if it's in a group or a one-on-one. - Yeah, in front of people, right? Like you never do that in front of people, but I think in the West you can, but maybe in the West you don't do that in front of people either, right? Like, I mean, but I think that highlights, it's like, okay, going back to the Lewis model, it's not these buckets we can just throw people in and they stay there. I think it's a fluctuation depending like what you're saying, Tilman, the context.

And we fluctuate between all these states. And the personality plays a role as well. So there's always, there are three factors. One is the context. One is the personality. One is the culture. And these three make up the situation or the interaction, actually. Yeah. There's the...

kind of the situational landscape of what's going on. And also just like the people that are involved because that mix and dynamic between the different people can also be a trigger as well. And then you have these three buckets. And I think what's really useful is if you think about them as just a general guide, because I don't think we think about these things at all. Now, will every situation fit in the buckets? Probably not. And that's not important because most situations may be

the default interaction is okay. But it's like when things go wrong and you get stuck, then you can look at the I'm okay, you're not okay kind of models. And then you can see if you can diagnose something. So it's like different diagnostic tools. And so maybe you use a tool and you don't find out anything. It's like going to the hospital, they do a test. Do you have this? No. Okay, that's not the issue. Do you have this?

But we don't like run any diagnostic tests sometimes. And we don't really know anything that's going on. But these are, it's like super powerful. I think it's like you're kind of going in blind to a lot of conversations. Yeah. And, you know, what I am really appreciative of you coming on the show, Tillman, and just talking to you and knowing you in general, and just kind of making, bringing more awareness to kind of these concepts is,

is that I do feel like we are living in a day and age where obviously the world is more interconnected. Different cultures are mixing more than ever, and political tensions are flaring, causing, and that almost has a trickle-down effect to larger societies and populations of people and their mentalities and how they view different cultures and different people.

So I just feel like, look, like I think self-awareness one, but like the understanding of how to communicate. And if you're a hammer, not everything is a nail, right? And how to get the most of this and a little more understanding of like kind of cultural differences and intercultural communication in general as a theme is more important right this second than it ever was before. I really believe that. And I don't know, a part of me just feels like,

Too little, too late, right? But like, I just, I'm a little more pessimistic in terms of like the direction I currently see the world going in right now. I feel like I have this dream that like cultures can come together. Societies can come together. Different countries can come together and really understand each other and communicate better. And I guess it just starts one by one, right? Like change happens incrementally and slowly 1% of the time.

And I think a lot of it is based and rooted in exactly what we're talking about, like this whole theme of intercultural communication. Because if you don't have that, then you don't have a tool to engage with people. Yeah, and at the same time, I'm not so pessimistic about it. I think that it's fair to say that also in China, there is...

uh, there is a, um, the, the next generation is already very different. And I think it's very important to acknowledge that, um, and not stick to, to like every, every one is still very traditional. Uh, and, uh, so there, there are so-called modern Chinese, uh, that's kind of a term that I read somewhere modern and traditional, um, um,

But it's very important to empathize that, that the next generation has already, for example, given up a lot of this Confucius style. But yeah, and talking about the cross-cultural communication in general, I think because of the...

the the easiness with which we have exchanged through zoom or through uh all the the media um there is more understanding of how others tick but the self-awareness is still something that we need to educate on a regular basis because without the self-awareness yeah the others are just stupid or you have more communication but the judgment still goes on yeah and i think um

That's where I see myself as the person to help contribute in this area to help more, to increase the self-awareness. But do you think that's just human nature? Yeah, it's tribalism. Well, the tribalism is one, but the whole idea of self-awareness, is that just not ingrained into us? Because we subconsciously, consciously,

all of it, we try to avoid what hurts us or what brings us feelings of pain. And that applies mentally as well. And so sometimes to be self-critical first doesn't feel good, right? It doesn't feel good to be like, oh, I might be the problem, even though you might be the problem. And so

And reflexively, we just go like, oh no, they're not okay. And you don't even question if you're okay or not, or if you're the source of the problem. And you just instinctively, I feel like, yes, one thing is awareness and talking about it. But then like when our brains are just on automatic and we leave this podcast studio, we go back on the street.

And, you know, someone cuts me off on the street. Oh my God, that guy's an asshole. He's not okay. I'm fucking, you know, like we hop right back into that instinctive mode of I'm okay. They're not okay.

And it's so hard to break out. Is it just a matter of repetition and awareness and practice? Is that all we can do about it? Yeah, that's a good example. And actually, it's for me always a measure stick for how resourceful I am. So when I drive through the traffic, I mean, ride through the traffic with my scooter and things start annoying me,

then I know something is on my mind. There's some stress in my system. So that's part of the awareness that I know it's not them. It's something I perceive it this way now because normally it doesn't bother me so much. I'm kind of...

accepting that there is that there are people not not behaving in the way i want them to behave or to to stick to the rules or whatever um and but when it starts bothering me that's for me the alarm oh

Is there something that is stressing me at the moment? Oh yeah. And then I normally know, yeah, I think it's because of this and this that happened that makes me not resourceful. It makes me more easily react with sensitivity to things around me. And that's where I take responsibility and acknowledge that this is more me than the others. And that is where...

would of course if everyone would have more of that kind of attitude would help to go less into blaming of each other or judging

But that is, yeah, it's a lot of work to come to that point, to take notice of that and acknowledge that and take responsibility and not see yourself as the victim. It's really a lot about not seeing yourself as the victim, but taking responsibility and asking yourself, what is my part in it?

Is it just the exercise of like, okay, well, let me just go through the formalities of, okay, if something happens, I'm in a conflict. Let me look internally first, like what Eric was saying, kind of just to cross it off the list to make sure, okay, is it really me? It might be, but if you feel like, okay, after checking with yourself, it's not me.

It's still this other person. I mean, is that okay? Is that fine as long as you've checked in with yourself? Because can we go too far in the opposite direction with this in which if we take too much of this everyone's okay approach, we're kind of tolerating things that just

actually aren't okay sometimes? - So this is actually a very good segue to the topic of nonviolent communication. Because the first step when something happens that bothers you because someone does that, something says something that you don't like,

Then you would first try to check in with yourself in terms of what am I feeling. It's about self-connection, self-empathy, understanding what is going on, what's alive in you. Not only what you're feeling, because the feelings are actually the signals of the body to tell you which are your needs that are met or not met. Met when you're happy, not met when you're not happy or when something makes you angry.

So finding out what are the needs at the core that cause that anger, for example, or disappointment is the first thing you should do in order to understand yourself. With that, you can, if you have found out that for yourself, there's already a certain relief going on because this chaos inside of you that just makes you feel angry is

is already getting some structure and transparency and understanding. This self-understanding gives you peace. Already the pain turns into a sweet pain. That's what Marshall Rosenberg, the inventor of nonviolent communication, once said. And with that, your heart also opens up again a little bit and is more curious about why is the other person behaving this way

And then you can see their feelings and their needs. Now, that does not mean that you have to prove how they try to meet their needs. And actually, everything we do and say is an attempt to meet a need. And that's very important to say that once again. Everything we do and say is an attempt to meet a need. But this attempt does not have to be successful and can be very destructive.

So when I scream at you, I want you to respect me more. You will not respect me more.

you will maybe even feel less respected. And we have also sacrificed maybe our need for trust, our need for harmony, for connection in the moment when I scream at you. But my act of screaming at you that I want you to respect me more is maybe just out of helplessness because I just don't have any other way to get my need met. And I don't know how to express it in a construct way. Yeah. And that creates then the tragedy in which we are all the time.

that people try to meet their needs in destructive ways and are even not successful. And I could express this need first. First of all, I could understand what it's really about for me. Maybe it's not respect. Maybe it's also undivided attention. Let's say when you're playing with your mobile phone while I'm talking to you.

which is a situation we have very often, yeah? When Eric is looking at the computer while listening, whatever. And then I could find out, all right, for me it's about presence, undivided attention. Oh, yeah. So it feels already better because I know I can – it's not only respect, it's more than that. And then I can say, okay, I –

For me, it's also the need for exchange, for being heard, for being seen and understood. And all these needs come up and I feel more and more complete by just acknowledging all my needs. And then I can also more easily express these needs.

But what is important in a conflict is that you also try to be curious about what are the needs of the other person. And maybe there's a need for safety in the other person. They may be checking their mobile phone because their boss is maybe calling every five minutes or could potentially or would become angry if you're not responding within five minutes.

And you could ask, is there a way that we could have like a period of time that we talk fully aware? I want to be multi-active here real quick. Okay. Because I'm trying to wrestle with this. Like, so, okay. So if this is the situation, right? So like, let's go back. Because I'm trying, okay, let me preface this. So I'm trying to make sense of how...

like transactional analysis and nonviolent communication, like how they work together, because there's like so many different theories. And the, like for an average human being, we can only kind of practice like one thing at a time and kind of get better at it. Like whatever, right? It's like working out at the gym. Like you can't do CrossFit and F45, everything at the same time. You kind of pick one, you do it, maybe down the road you do another one and then there's kind of overlap. Okay, so I'm going to,

I'm going to just throw this out there and then please critique what I'm saying. So in this particular scenario, when you're not happy with the other person for whatever reason, so the initial maybe awareness is like, I'm okay. You're not okay. So like, that's the first thing. So like the first step is like saying, okay,

like you're in traffic you're feeling like some kind of anger brewing and before you just didn't have a language to it and so your monkey mind is working but then human beings once you apply a language to something then you're like oh i can process it now but without a language you can't process okay so i'm like hey i'm kind of you know annoyed right um now then i know this tool so i'm like okay i'm okay because i'm not like i'm the one angry

and the other person's not okay. So that's step one. Then I'm like, okay, good. Now I know that I'm in this bad state because like, it's not like you should, like what Justin was saying, it shouldn't always be, I'm okay, you're okay. Right? Because sometimes it's just not okay. But if I'm in an I'm okay and you're not okay scenario, then I'm kind of like, okay, now I know I can start thinking about this. Then I move into NVC,

nonviolent communication and then I say okay what is my need my need is blah blah blah xyz then I communicate now had I not gone through this process then my communication would be like hey get the fuck off your phone because I would have just used my monkey brain to respond because I'm pissed off

But by step one, recognizing that I'm pissed off, using transactional analysis and saying, oh, okay, here's a dynamic that's going on. Then I go to NVC and I say, okay, what's my need? And then the third step is I craft my response in terms of curiosity. So I'm not judging. I'm basically saying that person has a potential need. I have a potential need and a feeling. So I tell them, hey, I'm not vibing this, but maybe you have a reason. Can you tell me? And then maybe that would solve like 80% of the problem.

And then, you know, 20%, maybe they're just being an asshole, like for real. Like, what is, does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. So you can translate transaction analysis into nonviolent communication by saying my need and your need is at the same level.

So I'm okay, you're okay translated in nonviolent communication is really about my need and your need. I care for your needs as much as I care for my needs. But the first reaction when you're angry is you believe your need is more important than the other one's need. But actually what is behind there is you're just not in agreement with the way they try to meet their need. And that's also the difference between you can criticize behavior

But you're not criticizing the person. So you acknowledge that the person has the right to meet their needs, but you're not okay with the way they're trying to meet it right now. Like the needs themselves could be legitimate needs. Absolutely. And that's what you have to... The expression of the need can be different. And that also goes back to the cross-cultural communication aspect. Because maybe like those people that are multi-active that are talking over you, they're actually...

like not trying to F with you, but you think they're trying to F with you. - Okay, well here, I wanna take one step back because what is nonviolent communication? I mean, it sounds pretty self-explanatory, but I guess what I'm asking is what are we defining as violence in this scenario? - Yeah, so nonviolent communication is a four step process and it starts with observing rather than interpreting and judging.

The second step is that you acknowledge your feelings or you express your feelings, but the pure feelings, not the judgmental feelings. You can say, I feel left alone. And what you're actually saying is, I feel lonely and you make me feel lonely. So you see yourself as the victim. But that would be a violent way which creates actually defensiveness in the other person and disconnection.

Yeah, so that's where I'm a little bit lost on is where are we... What's the line for violence here? Is it just being aggressive? Is it just being like having a victim mentality? Is that blaming someone, being judgmental? Is that violence? Like what's the threshold for violence? It's about not taking the responsibility for your own feelings and blaming others for making you feel. And also for...

Seeing your strategies, like there's the need and there's the strategy to meet a need. And seeing your strategies as the only one and because of the fact that you're not aware what actually are the needs below. So you just think this is the only way how it has to be done and can be done and you have to follow. So this is a violent way. Actually, it's also about not respecting autonomy of the other person. So actually, it's about connection and autonomy.

Empathy helps to strengthen the connection and respect for autonomy is the other part. You can really boil down nonviolent communication to connection, strengthening connection so that actually natural giving happens. So when I connect with you through empathy, there is this deep need of ours to feel seen and heard and understood. If that is met in the moment of communication,

There is a natural feeling of you want to give back, you want to do something for that person if you receive that gift of being seen and heard and understood.

And that's what you want to create with nonviolent communication. Also that in conflict, you are able to stay connected with each other rather than to go into defense. And that is what you trigger with violent communication defense. So the name, like, it feels like the name is kind of confusing. Absolutely. Like violent, nonviolent. Yeah. Is nonviolent...

what would be like synonyms for this? Like would nine violent be something like respectful or

Communication, nonviolent, respectful. I call it compassion communication only because I think it's better to call something what it is rather than what it is not. Or like engaged communication as opposed to disengaged communication. Yeah, I think the empathy part or the compassion part is a very important part of nonviolent communication or compassion communication, as I say. So engagement...

has many aspects. - Yeah, forget the engagement. That was a bad example. But like, okay, Tillman, I want to ask you in your heart of hearts though, do you feel like only a special handful of people can really attain this? Like to me, it's almost like attaining enlightenment, right? We can't go around. It really is. Like we can't go around expecting everyone to reach enlightenment, right? Like that'd be silly.

Just like almost it'd be unrealistic for me to expect everyone to be capable of reaching this point of compassion and I care for your needs just as much as I care for my own needs. And I just feel like is that reserved for like a handful of like special people who can attain that higher level? Or do you really believe like this is applicable to like really anyone can adopt this?

Well, you want to say something? I want to say one thing real quick, but I want to hear your response. I would say two things, right? One is, maybe, like, I know you're being devil's advocate here, but maybe you're already doing a lot of it, and so it's not really enlightenment. And then number two is, like, it just sounds like the philosophy is don't be an asshole, which isn't that, I mean, well... Well, you can not be an asshole, but not be like, I care for your needs just as much as I care for my own needs. You know what? I feel like that's...

that's a high bar to really operate on that level where you truly, truly, honestly care for someone else's needs just as much as you care for your own needs. I mean, who do you do that with? You do that with family members, people you really love. Well, the reason I say this is that

The implication of not being able to do this is not just sort of like life goes on. If you're unable to do this, shit blows up and then you get into arguments and you get really pissed off. That's the implication of what I think you were trying to say is that little tiny things blow up and get blown out of proportion and

and then you're assholes to each other because you're unable to do this. And so if you live your life long enough, you become an asshole because you can't practice these basic skills. And then there's this incentive to learn these things. And I think we've all learned them to some extent because we're not like blowing up every day. Maybe I am, but like. I feel that Eric was being a little violent, a little aggressive.

Okay, let's let the experts... I'm okay, you're not okay. Let's let the experts speak. Your turn, Simon. So first of all,

It's okay to do whatever you want. So nonviolent communication is just an offer. So it's not telling you, now that you understood how it works, you have to. So that's the first thing that many people misunderstand and already become uncomfortable with because they think now they have to behave all the time in this way. No, it's not about that.

But nonviolent communication or compassionate communication is the least costly way of communicating with each other and getting your needs met. And if you understand that, there's the incentive to practice it more. Because we all know this emotional hangover that we have after a fight.

And we know how, actually, how costly it is when we talk with each other in that way and we get these fights by basically, transaction analysis would say, these are two rebellious child ego states fighting with each other. And if we want to, and we are sad about that afterwards, and if we learn a better way to communicate with each other, especially in close relationships where we really care about the other person,

Then it's a win-win. And of course, then there's often the question, but what if the other person does not speak in this way or does not have that awareness? Can you also apply nonviolent communication in this case? And the answer is yes, you can. Of course, it's harder. It costs you more resources to stay in that state.

But it's possible to still apply it for yourself and with this trigger the other person to behave also in a different way or communicate in a different way. And yes, also one thing that is very important with compassionate communication or nonviolent communication, there's also something called protective use of force. And it is not that compassionate communication or nonviolent communication is just about being nice. It's about being honest,

And caring for your own needs and at the same time caring for the other person's needs. And especially for people that have the tendency to be a pleaser,

can make the environment very uncomfortable. And these people that before had this Pisa mentality, my needs do not count, the needs of others are more important, all of a sudden wake up and say, hey, I want to express honestly my needs because they are important to me as well. And so this becomes sometimes for people like, hey, what's happening? He's not so nice anymore, you know?

Yeah, and I think like the thing is like we're looking at this as like we're so bad at this that any application of just a little bit is going to like drastically improve because we're like operating in the, we're just guessing. Like essentially it's like we're human beings and we're saying that most human beings have needs and like we're just like most. Sorry. Yeah.

There's some out there that don't have any needs at all. Justin doesn't have any needs. Thanks for catching that. That was a good one. That was really good. I was just seeing if you're going to catch me on that. Keeping you on your toes. Yeah. And like, okay, we all have needs, but we're so clumsy sometimes just because we're so like caught up in our own worlds. And if we just kind of pay attention a little bit more and apply some of these tools, we won't be guessing. And,

you're already going to be so much ahead than everyone else because most people are probably practicing this very inconsistently if at all and if you're like the one person that just gives a little bit more like of a shit than any anyone else they're gonna like they're gonna be like oh this this person's a little bit nicer we're like literally guessing

I think you're even giving too much credit by saying guessing because guessing implies that you're actually putting in some effort to even try to guess. And we're literally what we're doing is, and now this makes so much sense, what you said, is that we are literally probably 80% of our transactions, of our interactions, our

are based on a trigger from a past reaction in our past that we're not even aware of. That's not rooted in I'm okay, you're okay. Probably. It's probably rooted in a bad interaction. And then you're just replaying that negative interaction over and over. You don't even realize it. And then you become an asshole.

That's how people become assholes. - Well, like the negotiation you were talking about, right? In terms of, okay, how do I get my needs fulfilled while also considering the needs of the person across from me, right? And how do I meet all, ideally you want to meet everyone's needs and then you can come to some sort of resolution and agreement that everyone can walk away with happy. Do you have any tips in terms of, because that to me is like, that's a skill, right? That's a real skill.

Most of us are really crap at this skill. And so do you have any tips on how to like, what are some small things we can do to try to improve this skill of that negotiation? Yeah. So the first thing is when you feel anger coming up, when you feel disappointment, anything that bothers you,

that in this moment, you first clarify with yourself where it is coming from. And sometimes it's just that you go to the toilet and do a small exercise of putting your hand to your forehead and just letting all the anger out, just in thoughts, like saying all the bad things, the judgments, and then go with your hand to your heart and ask yourself, what am I actually feeling?

And really connect with the feelings inside of you and not with the judgmental feelings, not like with the victim feelings, like I feel left alone, I feel betrayed. No, really like with the sadness maybe, with the helplessness and those kind of feelings. And then you go with your hand to your belly, right?

And you ask yourself, what are my needs? And of course, that's a training because there's a long list of needs. And the more you deal with them, the better you become at identifying them. And that can already help to bring you into this state of mind that you...

that you have that relief that you need in order to communicate with the other person what is really going on with you. Like that really brings you into a state of self-awareness, right? What's an example, Justin, of like where you, I think your mind's going somewhere. No, my mind's never going anywhere. Riley's not listening to you. Riley is like, I'm okay, you're not okay, dad. No, no. I mean, like this has nothing to do with me, but like,

If we want to bring it back to something that is relevant to me, something that you mentioned before a few minutes ago was you had made an example of like, oh, if you're like a people pleaser, right? It could be a very awkward or tough situation for you. When I was younger, I was a people pleaser. And I think my family, especially my parents and my siblings, like they saw it as a real point of weakness for me.

They would always call it out with me. And they always like, you're always just trying to please people. Like you give in too easily. You're just trying to please people. You're just saying yes and yeah. And in hindsight, looking back on my life now, when I was younger, like they were probably right. Like I was probably being overly pleasing. And to whom though? Like you try to please what, your teachers? Everybody, everybody. Your parents? Yeah.

Um, yeah, maybe not so much my parents, but like everyone. Okay. So this is what they were upset about. This is what they always, why they were. You please everyone else. You don't please us, motherfucker. Exactly. Exactly. And that's what they would say. That's what exactly what they would say. They were like, you try so hard to please everyone else. You don't give a shit about your own family. Right? Like they would say stuff like that. So to them, they just looked at me and how I interacted with people that weren't immediately in my family. And, um,

They were like, you just go. And to me at the time, I would always get defensive when they would say that because I felt like, look, my own family, like I'm so close to you guys. Like we, we were, we're together. We're a family. Like, of course I love you, but like, I don't feel like I need to walk around eggshells with you because we're that close. I can be very blunt and,

And because we are that close, that's a sign I'm showing you how close we are by how blunt I can be with you and how direct I can be with you without having to like go through these formalities of being trying to be polite. Right. But then they would see me interact with other people outside the family. And I would be very, very polite. I'd be humble. You know, I, I, I, I please, I, I do all these things. And in my own mind, I'm like,

I should be that way because they're not my family and, you know, these are sometimes strangers or, you know, this is how you should interact in society and this is how I hope people treat me, right? Treat people how you wish people to treat you. And so that's how I was going about it. But to them, I was coming off as just being this people pleaser. I've changed a lot since then. I don't think people necessarily would characterize me like that now.

But it took a lot of conscious effort to kind of transform myself. And it was a very hard journey because I went through this period of feeling like I was just being an asshole because it was a shock to my system to try to just be like, no, I don't really care about what you want. This is what I need done. And to switch to that mode,

was very, very tough. And somehow I can get there. I'm not saying I live there all the time. I'm not in that mode all the time, but I can be that now when I need to versus I probably, when I was younger, I probably couldn't. And so I guess somehow, some way, I'm not even sure how, but this relates to our conversation. Yeah, absolutely. It does. So on the one hand, uh,

in the field of nonviolent communication, you would say that was your strategy to meet your need for acceptance, for love, for belonging. And because in your family, you already had that acceptance and belonging, you didn't need it there. So you didn't use that strategy. That would be one explanation. The other thing is that, and that is actually a good segue to another topic of mine, positive intelligence, is that, yeah,

These are all defense mechanisms, survival mechanisms of the childhood. And you develop them partly because of

your personality, even from your DNA. And there is a concept or there's a framework called positive intelligence that talks of nine so-called saboteurs. There's the master saboteurs, that's the judge, judging yourself, judging others, judging circumstances. And there's the controller that is trying to control things, that micromanagement is a good example of that.

Then there is the restless, like multitasking, like Eric, always in move and doing many things at the same time. And then there is the stickler, going into perfection and believing that everything has to be 100% rather than just 80%. And sometimes things can be just 80%, but the stickler doesn't believe that.

And then there is the hyper-rational, which could be very much similar to the functional adult ego state, being very rational, no emotions. And hyper-rational means rationality is okay and is good and useful, but hyper-rational means you're rational in situations where rationality doesn't.

should not be applied. Like for example, with someone needs empathy and you're very rational about that. Then you have the hypervigilant being always overcautious and anxious that the worst case scenario will happen.

And you have the hyperachiever, which means also achieving. There's nothing wrong. Being ambitious is great. But if you achieve at the cost of your health, at the cost of your relationships, then

that's when the hyper is active and when it's really dangerous. And also you often are anxious that you will not reach it and that will be at the cost of your identity and you can only be happy when you have achieved this and so on. So you're never really relaxed and happy. And then there is the victim aspect.

And that's clear. It's really about dramatizing everything and self-pity a lot.

And there's the pleaser. So really seeing your needs not as that important. And actually what the pleaser also does is by never expressing their needs, they're creating mistrust. The people around you do not trust you when you're a pleaser. They enjoy the pleasing to a certain degree, but they don't trust you. So you're actually not creating that kind of acceptance or trust that you thought

think you would. - Why don't they trust you? - Because they can't imagine that someone has no needs. And so when- - Because you're not being honest. - Yeah, when you say, "Where do you want to go?" "Oh, I don't care, it's all okay." You decide, you decide all the time like that.

people cannot feel you. They don't know what's really going. - I get that all the time. Not towards me, but with other people now who are like, "No, no, no." I'm like, "You do have a preference. "You're just not telling me your preference." - Yeah, exactly. So you don't trust them. And the other thing is that pleasers often become resentful after they have pleased and given, given, given, given, until they are completely empty and then they don't receive back.

And then they become resentful. And then the last one is the avoider, going into procrastination, avoiding a conflict. And that is, of course, also causing problems. So all saboteurs are bad. So there's not a better one than the other one. All are actually based on strength. So this is an overuse and abuse of your strength.

And you could ask, what's the strength of the victim? Well, the strength is actually that you're able to express pain, that you can say, hey, something is wrong, I don't like that. Yeah, that's a strength as well, to be able to say no. It's basically very close to the rebellious child you could state. - What's the strength of the pleaser? - The strength of the pleaser is empathy. So you have the ability to empathize with others,

but you are not empathizing enough with yourself. - Yeah, yeah, that really resonates with me. - Yeah. - Okay, so with positive intelligence, how would you define positive intelligence? Is it just the act of identifying what your saboteurs are? - No, basically it's about mental fitness, creating mental fitness with yourself in a way that you can react to any challenge in life with a positive rather than a negative mindset.

And that then gives you the ability to use all your resources

to focus them on what needs to be done rather than using them up with destructive ways of protecting yourself that are maybe not necessary. For example, if you become very angry or hypervigilant, for example, and you're always anxious, that uses up your energy, your resources. And that anxiety maybe...

brings you lack of sleep. Then the lack of sleep does not make you perform the next day. So this is a good example where you cannot be at your best when you are in that state of the saboteurs. And the saboteurs are also responsible for the conflicts. Yeah, and you said enlightenment earlier. I mean, we're kind of joking that it's like this impossible state, but none of these tools is like

nuclear physics. Like it's all completely simple and in front of you. Basically they all say the same. Yeah. It's like going to a, going to like a gym and seeing all the weight machines and being like, okay, I know how every single one of them works. It's so obvious, right? This one, basically I lift here, I push here, whatever.

It's so obvious. It's really the practicing part that is the hard part. Yeah. And in this positive intelligence program, it's really about 80% practice and 20% insight. So the insight is important, of course, to understand, reach awareness, have a common language with which you can communicate on that. But the practice is even more important. And it's really also...

it's also about neuroscience that you can really change your brain when we talk about triggers that was kind of the starting point. So a trigger brings you into a certain pathway of reaction and that is maybe the saboteur reaction that means that you go into this automatic autopilot state of reacting without awareness and with

These exercises that you do as part of this program, you can train your mind to go the other way, go the sage way, take the other route and strengthen that route, make out of that small trail a highway. And that is something you can really practice and train your mind or your brain to really change. So neuroplasticity you've all heard of. That's really happening and that you can do with this.

- Yeah, kind of like rewiring how your brain reacts to things and certain emotions and certain situations. - Yeah. - And like you hear examples of that. And like, for instance, I mean, just some random ones like Roger Federer, and this was a younger case, but when Roger, and this is well known, and I think he's also commented on this, famous tennis star, but when he was younger,

He had like, he would just like implode and all his matches, he'd get really pissed off and he'd just like blow up. And then ultimately became one of the greatest champions of all time. Just retired, right? Was it last year or whenever? And he's known as like Mr. Cool, but he was like Mr. Hothead before that.

And then you see like other folks over time, they change. Like Lincoln, I think. He failed repeatedly and then eventually at some point he became president. And of course, a lot of these positive traits showed up when he was younger. But they go through this evolution and some people kind of make that leap and they change and then they do really great things. And then most of us just kind of don't. How would you, I mean...

It's hard to sum all this up because I think it gets very deep and it's very sophisticated, I think we're talking about. But at the same time, I think there is also a simple message to all of this. What would you say is that simple message? Take responsibility for yourself, for your feelings, and increase your self-awareness through self-observation and reflection.

And try to approach people with this attitude of I'm okay, you're okay. Assuming everyone is just trying their best to meet their needs. I think that's as good of a place as any to top this off. Cheers, Tillman. Cheers. This is crazy. I'm going to...

I'm going to change after this show. Yeah, you're never going to change. Dude, I'm going to come back next week and I'm going to be like... I'm going to be like in a yoga pose. You're going to be a saint. I'm going to float in like with a yoga pose and I'm going to be like... Just float. Like, wow, you're enlightened. And then I'll be like... And you'll see me yelling at someone. No, but listen, Tillman. I mean...

I know I say this in a lot of episodes, but I truly mean this. This is really just scratching the surface, I think, of what you teach. And today we got a very basic introductory understanding into each part of what you do and how to communicate, whether it's compassionate communication, nonviolent communication, transactional analysis, mental fitness, positive intelligence,

I do hope that I can somehow internalize

all this and become a better person. - Or at least like 5% of it. - Not all of it. - That's already being generous. That's already being really generous. But like internalize it even somehow through osmosis, like going back into our routine lives, it seeps in somewhere. And when we do come into conflict and when we do start having tough conversations with people and engaging people, people, whether they're from your tribe or outside your tribe,

it seeps in and somehow we can improve the way we engage the world and the way we engage others. And selfishly, that has a reciprocal effect on us in terms of maximizing what we get out of it as well. And I really appreciate you coming on the show, Tillman, and just enlightening us about all of this. Thank you. Thank you very much for inviting me. It was a pleasure. Okay, one more time. Yeah, cheers.

What do you think of the whiskey? Are you like, no? No, that's okay. I'm almost finished. I'll have to add one thing. Mic drop it. Tillman and I, well, I want to vouch for him. I want to do some, like, I'm okay, and you're really okay kind of shit. How about let's do we're not okay, but he's okay. No, no, no. Because, no, it's I'm okay, you're okay, because he's influenced me. And so that even, like,

further kind of highlights his okayness is that he could make me kind of okay. So we met a couple of years ago and I just like, I think I had a couple of different sort of reactions and stuff like that. And the fact that we still know, you know, know each other and he came to the wedding and all this stuff he's on the show, you know, means a lot, but I just remember him being like so nice and caring and,

I was like, dude, this guy's just like, he's really nice and he's really cool. And he was in a couple of different kind of communities. And in that community, he was like a very well-respected person. And as I got to know him, like he was quite accomplished as well. And I was like, he's quite accomplished. He's got a great reputation with everyone. And he's like super nice to me. Like, I'm like, wow. Like I didn't expect that. I didn't.

I didn't expect that. Well, what were you expecting? Like this asshole? No, I don't. And that's your point about enlightenment. It's like you don't meet people that they just, sometimes when you meet someone that's slightly on another level, you notice it. He just had like a little bit of an extra gear in the sense like, wow, he's like super attentive and nice. And every time I see him, he makes the time for me.

So now we know, like he's got all this shit, like he's got all these tools. He's got all these tools in his back pocket. He's basically, he's like driving a fucking Ferrari Lamborghini, right? We're all like a fucking, like some piece of shit, like old car. We're not even in the car with our bicycles. Exactly. And then, and he's telling us, he's like, look, you have a choice. Like the Ferrari's right there. You can get in. You just choose not to. Sometimes it's right there and you just choose not to do it. And the fact that he still, you know, treats me as a friend means that I've made some improvements at this. Yeah.

I'm okay. I'm okay. You keep telling yourself that. These guys love to do the I'm okay, you're not okay thing on the show. All right. Thank you again, Tillman. But for now, I'm Justin. I'm Eric. And I'm okay. Be good. Be well. Peace.