#28. Lee Tseng: The Puncher's Chance
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What's up everyone? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. You can almost reach us at thehonestdrink at gmail.com. And if you've been enjoying this podcast, go ahead, rate, comment, and subscribe. Today's guest is a well-known OG of the Shanghai community. He's a guy I've been really excited to talk to. He was the co-owner of the gastropub Liquid Laundry and was the owner and co-founder of the Boxing Cat Brewery, the most internationally recognized microbrewery in China.

God, I'm always having trouble saying that word. All right. His restaurants and beers have won several awards. And over the years, he and his team have been leading the growth and exposure of the craft beer industry in China.

He shared his story with us today, and we really got a more intimate understanding of him as a person and his journey in F&B. We also spoke about pursuing passions, failures and success, mindset, culture, craft beer, and adapting to change. I had a really great time talking to him. So without further ado, please welcome Li Jin.

Oh,

Lee, what's going on, man? Thanks for coming. What's going on, guys? I'm really happy to be here. It's been a while since we really got to sit down and really...

We connect, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. You know, I think it's a great platform you guys have here. And, you know, the fact that we get to do it with friends and drink a bit while we're rapping makes it more fun. Well, thanks for bringing the Ardbeg. We're drinking today. We open up the top of our show every episode introducing kind of what we're drinking. It's kind of our thing. The Ardbeg Dark Cove.

Right? Yes. I mean, I don't get these names. I wish they would just go back to the years. You know what I mean? They kind of did away with the years. So I think one of the things about Isla Whiskies is, you know, you have a lot of these brands that now actually are not owned by the independents. You know, they're owned by some greater groups because a lot of them kind of had...

gone to the brink of closure or they had actually closed and then they got bought out and then revived by a lot of the distilleries. So I think a lot of the industries now, they do do the year releases, but I think in Arbeck's case, a lot of the times their biggest claim of fame wasn't necessarily the treasure trove of these massively aged companies.

massively aged cast only. I think they're trying to build identity again to have this new generation to reconnect with a brand that had been closed for a while. But I think to appeal, for example, this Dark Cove one to a new group of fans, hopefully to convert some people who aren't necessarily an idol

drinker they have the sherry cask kind of aging in there and it kind of brings a little bit of the sherry sweetness that you know from the McAllens the Dalmores and you know it kind of merges the two the two crowds and one of the reasons why I personally love this one as well is because I actually hated the

when I first started drinking whiskey. So did I. And, and it's something that I even once made the statement, although it sounds super foolish because I almost drink Islas more than anything else now is, uh, why would anybody want to drink a smoky peppery PD whiskey? That's what, that's, that's what we're saying, right? The, that, that, that kind of contradicts you. Like, why wouldn't you just drink water or something or like, like, like,

juice. So it's ironic now that, um, it's ironic now that, you know, I, I find myself, you know, every 10 whiskeys that I drink, I might drink like seven of them from Isla, right. Or if I'm, I'm seeking out, cause I like to collect bottles and, uh,

It seems like I buy more peated whiskey than I do Highlands or other regions. And I think to my own personality and things that I've kind of come to embrace as I age, a lot of it you can find a trend almost, right? So whether it be craft beer, whether it be coffee, whether it be whiskey,

You know, I tend to have an evolution of, you know, kind of where I started, what I end up. And it's never necessarily... The price shouldn't factor into that. It's more like, okay, you've really discovered something that maybe was something that's completely unaware to you. But as you're...

evolves as your life evolves and you come back to it, you come back to it and you're like, okay, you know, I find that I'm changing, you know, and you discover a new you in a way. That's the beauty of whatever it is you're doing. And obviously in this particular conversation, whiskey is, I think if you can discover what it is that you yourself are as a person, what kind of, you

likes, dislikes you have, I think, you know, if you, if you put that towards something that has a wide range of choice, you can find things that are more you, um, that isn't necessarily a price oriented, you know, I think, uh, you know, going back to kind of, uh, another, another

obviously, spirit. If you're talking about vodka, I don't know that there's as wide of a difference. I mean, no offense to vodka producers, but the characteristics of vodka tends to be that the range is more limited, whereas whiskeys, you have quite a wide range. There's a lot of discovery. There's a lot of discovery going on. I mean, if we're looking at something that's

whiskey, for example, and the kind of crazy price jumps that we've really seen in the last six years. Is it because the spirit's any better? No, not necessarily. Some might even argue that it's not as good as it once was, but the price is there because somebody played this game of limiting the aged inventories, or maybe we'll believe the story that it's because they're running out of stock and they have to preserve it. But ultimately now at

all the bottles are what you know especially the premium bottles are you know six times the price they used to be expensive eight times the price they used to be and but the liquid itself has not changed so do you really necessarily need to uh shell out that price just to get that does that necessarily make it better than something else no not necessarily so i think you know these days

the real value of scotch is back in Scotland, you know, and that, that had always been there. But I think for a while people came up with, uh, this idea of, you know, I, I think it's sexy to, uh,

enjoy Japanese artisanal craftsmanship or their whiskey ideas. Taiwan, you know, Cavalon, maybe there's something there that is unusual for me to get or hard for me to get to because whiskey collection and whiskey investment and appreciation has kind of been a fun, sexy topic for a lot of people in the last little bit as well, right? And so...

you know, for me, it's fun. You know, I go out, try to find bottles that people introduce to me. I'm learning, you know, as we go and, you know, you hear about something, you're like, okay, sounds like something I want to try. Get a bottle, share it with friends, you know. The whiskey game, I think, you know, it's been around forever. I think it will continue to be around. It's a great kind of spirit for people to congregate and

sip slowly enjoy with the conversation you know many aspects for me um probably why i drink whiskey more than i drink anything else is uh i feel like like beer it's a way to make friends you know you sit down with a bottle um

You're not probably, although Taiwan says different sometimes, you're not probably going to be shooting whiskey. But a lot of times this kind of allows you to sip and chat and kind of discover things in life. Well, we've been talking about whiskey, but I want to kind of change the topic of the conversation a little bit. I mean...

Obviously, you're an OG of the Shanghai community. I've been here for a little over 10 years now. And to a lot of people, that sounds like a long time. But from your perspective, that really isn't. When did you get here again? I arrived September 2002. To China? Yeah. And it was Shanghai you arrived? Yeah, Shanghai. One day before the civic holiday. Wow.

So that was a trip to experience coming from Canada. Yeah. Growing up mostly in Canada, you don't see that many people. And then my second day here, you see millions of people congregate at the Bund. And you're like, I don't think I've seen millions.

Never. Much less in one place. For a lot of people that know you in Shanghai and in other places, obviously you've been remarkably successful in the food and beverage scene here, opening up several restaurants. In recent years, with the popularity of liquid laundry and all that, you've done famously well with your restaurants here. But to me, it seems that

What's most remarkable to me about your story is that you came from Canada, came to China...

Did you have any experience in like an F&B or like craft brews before this, before coming? No, not at all. Not whatsoever, yeah. And so here we are today. You created this boxing cap brewery, which is craft beer in China, made locally here. And throughout the years, it's gone on to win all kinds of awards, all kinds of international accolades.

that it's received and it's done extremely well. Like I'm walking into random places here in Shanghai now and ordering boxing cap beers off the menu. And my personal favorite is the Sucker Punch. Whenever I see that on a menu somewhere, I order it. - I do. - Okay, it's my go-to. But it's like the success of that and now you have your own kind of brand of beer and in the distribution and it's become a real player in the craft brew market.

I mean, that's gotta be really cool for you. And like, could you ever have imagined that? Like if we rewind the clock back that you would be sitting here today with your own like kind of successful craft brew brand and having been a real player in that market. I mean, I actually came to China for KFC. So no, no, I actually did not in any way imagine this. Right. So I basically, yeah,

When I was growing up, I was born in Taiwan. I grew up in South Africa and Canada subsequently, but mostly in Canada. So I always felt I was going to just stay in Canada after graduation. I had no reason to leave. One summer right before I graduated college,

My relative, my cousin, basically started planting the seed in my mind to say like, hey, you know, I know you're graduating next summer. Do you want to

come to Asia. And at the time I was like, no, I have no desire to come to Asia whatsoever. I'm good. You know, I like Toronto. I'm just going to graduate and see what, what did you study? I didn't like a econ and urban planning double. So it's just one of those things where, yeah, I, I moved to Canada in grade four and I had a,

pretty set life there that I enjoyed. So I never really thought I would leave for any reason, you know. But my cousin then the following Chinese New Year's just so happens that, you know, it's my last year in university. I don't care, right? Like I'm gonna take some time off Chinese New Year's and come back and do CNY in Taiwan.

And he was like, okay, so what are you doing this summer? I was like, I don't know. I'll probably look for a job after I graduate. I'm still looking right now, but I'm sure I'll find something. He's like, why don't you just come out for a vacation on me after you graduate, and we'll head off to Shanghai just for some fun. I was like, okay, I'll do that.

And, you know, I graduate, come back, and he's telling me that he got a franchising opportunity to become a franchisee for KFC, Kentucky Fried Chicken. At the time, that was a huge business, a huge boom here in China.

remarkable success story. You know, the China miracle as some had called it because it was the only market in the world where anybody could crush McDonald's at the fast food game. Much less a player who isn't a player. And they really crushed McDonald's. Yeah, they were crushing. They still are crushing McDonald's, you know, but I think that initially,

to me, one, because at the time, truth be told, we hadn't landed anything in terms of a job. So it wasn't like I was already tied down to something. And then two, yeah, you know, it was an opportunity to come out and do something that's different than, let's say, corporate or whatever starting job that I could take a look at. And I was like, okay. I came out to Shanghai, checked it out.

a lot of fun, you know, for in the two weeks that I was here, you know, especially back then. Yeah. 2002 straight out of school. Uh, it w it was a cultural shock for me in some ways as well, you know, and I think that experience was an eye, eye opener, at least in terms of really seeing the density of the population here, uh, really telling me for the first time that, uh,

you can't be wide eyed and kind of, uh, unready for things, you know, you, anything could happen, you know, you really got to think about how to, how to tackle it. Right. And, um, I kind of kept that mindset throughout, uh,

kind of a lot of things that, that, that came later on, you know, like you can't bring your Western baggage over to like, exactly. Exactly. So, so that was, um, that was one of the things that, um, I think every expat struggles with when they first come out here, you know, it's a, it's a difference in culture probably for a lot of the people who come out here. Um, it's a difference in mindset, difference in values. Um,

I was born in Taiwan. I went back to Taiwan a lot. So I feel like there was a good part of me that understood Chinese values, but at the same time, Taiwan and China was still different in 2000. I mean, it still is different, but it was dramatically different, you know, too. Um, and then with the Canadian side of me, you know, which I died, I identify with the most because that's predominantly where I grew up. Uh,

you really need to come to terms, uh, and, and have honest conversations with yourself in terms of what you want, what you can handle or, or what do you hope to achieve? Right. And, um, the, the eternal struggle for everybody is, especially I would say the first six months to a year minimum is this is what it's like back home. You know, you, you find yourself going back to that a lot, uh, man, back home, this back home that, and it's not like that here. And, uh,

Because I wasn't here on a contracted work kind of capacity, I was here always as a let's build something with my relatives. I think it was exacerbated, right? It was exponentially kind of magnified, right?

I could always say, hey, I want to leave. And so year one, you go through the motions, right? Oh, maybe I'll, I don't know, maybe I'll leave next year. Year two, I don't know, maybe I'll leave next year. And then your friends back home, it's also, yeah, if you don't know if you like it or not, you could always come back, et cetera, et cetera. But I think we came here for the KFC opportunity

We never did it because a lot of it didn't make sense for who we were and where we were at that time. We ended up

embarking on another FMB-related investment, which was Illy Coffee. And we also, at the time, my relatives had decided to dabble a bit in real estate investment here. Old homes, predominantly garden homes here and lane houses here in Shanghai, and then courtyard homes in Beijing. So I think that opened my eyes to

kind of the ability and the opportunities of doing business here in China, you know, and, and, uh, you know, if you're willing to give it time, if you're willing to put effort the right way and build things that I think there's a lot of opportunities here that couldn't be afforded to me back in Toronto. And, and,

I took an honest kind of look in the mirror and I wanted to just come to terms. What is it going to be? Because you're always going to be half in on something. You're never going to make it. Do you want to stay or do you want to go? And if you want to go, then make that decision and just say, look, I know what I want and this is not it. Make a life out of it or leave.

What I ended up obviously deciding was to stay in which I think, you know, I told myself, okay, if you're going to stay, then forget about thinking I'm going to go back next year or even in the next little bit. Just know you're here. You're going to build something here and you're going to make the best out of it for better or for worse. And I think that mindset really helped me in a lot of things that I did moving forward because I no longer...

started thinking like back home, blah, blah, blah, because it doesn't matter anymore. This is my new reality. This is my new kind of a home, so to speak. And I have to make that work. This country has so many people, so many thousands of years of history here. Nothing's going to change because I like or dislike it, you know? So it's on me to make that adjustment. It's on me to make that work. And I think as soon as I made that mental shift, I,

I was able to really build off of that. I think, um, not, not obviously in any successes only, but also in failures, I was able to build off of that. And, you know, a lot of times I, I, I think in life we go through that, right? We, uh, we go through good times, bad times, and, you know, it sounds cliche, but really, I think it's the, the harder times that you go through that really rewards you later on, you know, with, uh,

you're really growing as a person, you're really growing in your career, so to speak, because you have the experience now and you're less afraid to face challenges similarly in the future. - Yeah, I think people have this weird way of taking successes for granted in their lives and focusing more on their failures.

And I think it's because of that you focus more on the failures, you know, you kind of ask yourself, okay, what happened here? Why did I fail? You know, what did I do? And what can I do different moving forward that could, you know, could avoid the same kind of issues that I ran into or failures or whatever.

And I agree, I mean it's cliche to say, but you learn so much more through your failures than you do through things you succeed in. And everyone who's successful has to take that leap of faith like you say. You can't keep one foot on the ground and still kind of climb the mountain. You gotta go all in and when you go all in you might succeed but you might fail.

And if you fail, you kind of take inventory of where you are. And some failures hurt more than others. But ultimately, it's that challenge of getting over that hump and moving forward better because of it that I think a lot of people struggle with in life. And also, I feel...

You have to be able to really dedicate yourself to changing a lot of times because you fail for a reason. A lot of times you fail for reasons that are easier for you, right? Because it's in your nature, it's in your personality, it's in your habit to react that way, to choose that path.

So the next time you're facing the same decision, are you able to get out of your own way sometimes, you know, to, to really make that change? Because I, I've,

I'm sure everybody has, you know, everybody has repeatedly made the same mistake in life. And it's not because you don't know what you're doing. It's not because, you know, you don't know any better. But it's sometimes some people say you're a creature of habit or sometimes people just the term, you know, that's just the way I am or I can't help myself. We talk a lot about, you know, habits and trying to.

get better incrementally. And part of like what we've talked about in this show is that we're at a point in our life where we have a little bit more awareness of what those unconscious scripts that are running and we're kind of making the same mistakes over and over. And we made them so many times that we start seeing them. And we also want to help each other. Can you share a little bit about

you know what i guess types of habits and um lifestyle changes you you you were making like during this period of time that helped you kind of break through and your mindset and then um you know at at work i i think um one of the one of the things that i first uh had to get over is uh

Growing up in Canada, I feel it's probably fair to say that you grew up kind of sheltered. I felt everything was going to work out or everything's going to be okay because the society there generally is a pretty safe society. It's a pretty systematic society where people are just kind of A, B, C, D, E. Like you're in your bubble. Yeah, you're in a bubble, so to speak. But when I came out to China, like I said, second day,

You know, that whole bubble is like, okay, this is – you're not in Kansas anymore, right? So I think one of the things is the first six months to a year for sure, I'd like to give myself credit to say that's where it stopped. Maybe it extended beyond that, but I felt like it was really –

a challenge for me to stop being so naive in many ways, you know, to, to only see the good in things, to only assume that, you know, everybody has good intentions. To be very Canadian. To be very Canadian, you know, though I did not apologize for many things. I think it was, yeah, you know, I don't mean that necessarily on a work level only, you know, I think even going out and meeting people and, uh,

This is going to maybe sound funny, but I think my first time meeting and interacting with local Chinese girls, right? And it had maybe something to do with the circles we were running in or the perception of things from the other side, but...

I realized that materialism was a big factor in a lot of conversations. And for me growing up in Canada, I don't even know what materialism is, right? You don't think about how much things are supposed to cost. Because you got materials. No, it's not even that. It's like, for example, I'm going to share a story. It's not going to maybe be a great reflection of me, but I'm going to share it anyways. So one of the first things that we go out and...

My cousin's like, okay, you know, you've never really been at KTV. So we should give you the China initiation. So this is your first KTV experience. Yeah, and it was supposedly a fancy KTV. Okay, we know what that means. So we...

so I, I go there and you know, I'm trying to be a gentleman. I'm trying to be, you know, kind of starting conversation with a girl. Like I, I'm on a date with this girl or something like that. You know, what are your, what are your likes? What are your dislikes? What are your dreams? And by the way, for the listeners, um, uh, like a KTV in this part of the world is, uh, I suppose it's like a gentleman's club. Yeah. Uh, I,

without some of those extra perks that maybe people are used to. It's a karaoke where girls are, you know, are there to hang out with you and sit next to you and drink with you, basically. And there's a lineup. You get to pick your girl, blah, blah, blah. We all know. Yeah. Okay, go on. But anyways, so here I am trying to be very Canadian, right? And...

She's like, so yeah. Okay, great. Meanwhile, totally bored here, you know, with me. And so I was like, okay, what are you doing tomorrow? She's like,

I don't have anything before 6 p.m. You know, I was like, okay, you want to go out? It's like, yeah, sure. You want to meet me at this department store? I didn't know what that means. You know, I was just like, I was just like, okay, I can meet you at this department store. And then, uh, I went there and basically we all know what happened. She decided to tell me what she wanted and she expected me to buy them for her, you know, kind of thing. But, uh,

My point being, you know, like I think going back to all of it is now your values and all that kind of stuff, what you're used to and what it is now. Okay. It's a shift, right? It could be dating. It could be career. You know, you got guys who are ordering saying like, oh yeah, we could do something together. You know, you can't just assume that just because somebody says they want to do something together that they have a win-win in mind, right? You have to really now start thinking

of gauging what the other person's angle out of this is or what the other person needs out of this for their own situation. What is their situation? That is a question that I never necessarily needed to ask myself growing up in Toronto, right? You became more of a shark. Right, but now I need to know, okay, well, what's this person's background? What's this person's- Angle. Kind of angle out of all this. And, you know, I feel like

Luckily for me, my relatives, they had been people who had built their fortune from the ground up. So they had a lot of wisdom in this end to kind of smack me in the head and be kind of forceful to say,

you need to stop. You need to stop this naivety. You need to really kind of think about A, B, and C before you just assume that everybody is out here trying to make something work. No, I mean, you're out here, you're fishing for things just like they're fishing for things. And you need to have a strategy. You need to build a greater mindset. Do you think that's changed? Because I know...

Like my family's also from Taiwan and I think I also was, you know, part of that naivety, probably a lot more so because I've never really started my own business or anything. I've always worked in the corporate world. And so I can kind of relate to, not necessarily the department store, but I understand what you're saying. Do you think things have changed?

Not to jump too much forward, right? I want to go back to this period of time. But do you think things have changed significantly in the last 15 years? Like the mindset has changed? If we define the mindset as...

Always be hustling or I'm always driving for better. No, I don't think that has changed but certainly you have a group of people whom have moved on to achieve more who have now wealth and Maybe they're at a better point in their life because you know, I think I don't know about you guys, but I know that especially

especially from 02, I would say, at least all the way up to 05, 06, a lot of the people who were expats came over and they really felt like it was,

It's going to sound a bit rude to say this, but people did really feel like, oh, I need to help educate people. I need to help enlighten the mass here. Yeah, they thought they were like the Crusades. It's like colonial, right? They're more cultured. They're uncivilized. But you realize as you spend more time here and as I evolved, I went from...

Having that initial colonialist mindset, if we will, to then really, okay, why is this girl bringing me to a department store? What is it that motivates her daily? And I start to look at it from a different perspective. I start to think about things from their perspective and their angle and where they aim to be, right? And then you kind of say things to yourself like,

You know, from initially, oh, I don't want a gold digger to, okay, well, if this is the way that I'm going to better my life, then who am I to judge that?

him or her on what it is that he or she decides they need to do to get there. You know what I mean? Like everybody's hustling. Everybody's trying to get to a place in this, you know, country billions, like where, where am I going to find my little piece? Right. And especially in O2, wealth is not common like it is now. Right. You know, it's interesting. Like,

Kind of a corollary to that, what I experienced was when I first came out to China, I got angry all the time. When was this, by the way? Around the same time, a little bit after that. Like permanently. Probably more like 2003 where I kind of moved out long term. And I can be kind of a bit hot-headed or whatever, right? And I just get angry all the time, right? Like, I mean, we're always...

getting into some kind of... You get angry all the time, Eric? You? This is before I started meditating and working out, you know. I didn't know, you know, I didn't smoke weed back then either. I still don't, but you know.

And I'd get angry and different things would happen. And like you said, you're always comparing things back home. But I think one thing that I realized over time was I was very judgmental. And it's probably part of your age thing. You're in your 20s, you're super young. You don't really know what's going on. You're super judgmental. Or you're full of...

uh kind of ideal still because you're you're you're you're filled with those kind of uh ideologies through your education yeah yeah and you know like growing up um there was definitely a stigma towards mainland china if your family was from taiwan and in particular if your family was part of the you know the nationalist party coming over to taiwan and so i remember like um

just hearing my parents on the phone, my grandfather was the only one in the family that still kept in touch with relatives from China. Like everyone else had kind of moved on. They had moved to Taiwan, probably similar to your family, like very, very early on. Um, and I just remember hearing horror stories about, you know, China for so many years, you know, like the greed, the materialism, like all that stuff. So in my mind, like my ideology, and it wasn't ideology in a way it was shaped by that. Um,

And eventually I moved out here and, you know, slowly that kind of melts away, you know, and it doesn't mean that I've lost my values because, you know, of course we grew up in this more idealistic. Our parents worked really hard to kind of probably get over to North America. So I think a lot of us share in common this value system of being idealistic.

you know, honest or contributing to society, right? There's, there's certain DNAs that have made Asians, you know, I think, um, successful in North America or other parts of the world. Um, but yeah, I agree. Like, um,

you know, when you really step back and try to understand like what people want, they go through different phases. And like when people are not, don't have the fortune of having the same things you did, they do have to hustle, you know? So I like in a way I appreciate that. I don't know if I would do all the same things, but I definitely become more appreciative of that, you know? Yeah. And, and I, I think, you know, going back to what, what we originally were discussing, which is, you know, kind of some things that,

you had to adjust. So one of those things is this, right? Your understanding of kind of breaking out of your own old habits of being naive or kind of green. The other thing would be, I feel like,

I really started to get a better understanding of the history here of China, you know, whether that be kind of... A lot of it is tied to...

the dynastic periods, you know, when we talk about the party here versus, you know, the imperial system, you know, the way they play the game, um, the way they view strategies and whatnot, a lot of it, they still share a lot of commonalities. And then you, you think about factions, right? Um, you think about, okay, Shanghai or, or this, this, uh, uh,

you know, mid-eastern belt of China, they have certain tendencies. You know, when you go up to Beijing or that Dongbei area, they have certain tendencies. You know, different parts of China, they have different tendencies. If you're doing business and you're trying to find opportunity, you know, you really need to educate yourself and kind of get...

the understanding of how to do business, the nuances of doing business. What are the ways that connect with the local people that, that, that you're, you're in fact trying to try to do business with, right? Do you have a, um, do you have any stories and, or even any funny stories of like your, um, of your learnings where like, you know, you met some particular faction and then you kind of, you know, uh, I, I,

I don't know if there's any funny stories necessarily, but I feel like one of the lessons that it always kind of stuck with me. And I think it really molded who I became later on as I embarked out on kind of my own journey apart from my relatives. And I would even say that this was before that because that's...

when it started to shape was, you know, I was struggling when I first came out to China, my relatives, as I mentioned, we had this KFC opportunity, but we never actually ended up executing that plan to become franchisees. We evolved into kind of investing in a coffee concept, Illy Design Cafe in the Jing Mao Tower. So that was my first

business project that I was involved with here in China. Then we went into real estate with the garden homes and the courtyard homes in Beijing. That was a different industry altogether. During this time, my relatives decided that they also wanted to dabble in

retail with denim fashion. They also want to dabble in bringing their business from Taiwan over. They also want to dabble in this. They also want to dabble in that. They were just entrepreneurs at heart. Entrepreneurs, but also, you know, I felt like there wasn't something that I could focus or own in on and kind of... Like move up in a certain category. Dedicate myself to or my energy to. And I was feeling at one point really lost. You know, I think I was having a lot of...

personal fun, you know, being here. But career-wise, which is the reason why I left Toronto in the first place, I never really... I wasn't building anything. I wasn't, you know, kind of seeing where this was all leading towards. And I remember one particular incident where...

This was actually a new restaurant that my aunt wanted to do. And I remember saying to kind of the people involved in the project, I was just like, you know, if you want me to do A, B, and C things, I have no idea how to do any of these things. I don't know why I'm being asked to do any of these things, right? And yeah.

one of the, uh, the older kind of, uh, let's call her an advisor to the business. One of the older advisors to the business, she, she kind of pulled me aside and she had said, look, um, you're young, you may not understand, uh, you know, some of these things, but I'm going to give you one piece of advice and you take that as you may, you know, and if,

You get asked to do something from your boss or if you get asked to do something that you're supposed to be responsible for,

Don't ask how you're going to get it done. Find out yourself. Make sure you're exploring things before you open your mouth and just kind of say, I don't know. I give up because nobody wants to work with that guy. Nobody wants to work with that girl who just wants to kind of say, hey, help me, help me, help me. Everybody's busy with their own things. If you want that life,

You need to find a path. Be resourceful. Find a way. Or else maybe this thing isn't for you. Don't be an entrepreneur. Go out and find something where you have a responsibility that you're more comfortable with. I don't think she meant it as a life lesson. I think she really was kind of more just telling me to... Just like being practical with you. Shut up. But the way I took it was...

No, you're right. You know, if going back to my point earlier, if I'm going to say that I've committed to China full time, I'm committed to building something here and I need to make things work, then OK, certainly whether I agree with something is one thing, but I'm not going to become that guy or girl. But in my case, that guy that kind of gets stuck on something and then says,

Okay, well, I guess that's it. And then turn around and find something else. Right. And so, you know, I from that point, eventually, it led me to say, actually, you know what, I think where my circumstances lied, where my relatives circumstances were, we weren't a good fit.

It wasn't going to work. So I wasn't completely wrong in my initial kind of mindset, which is like, I don't know why I'm being asked to do these things. It was wrong in the sense that I shouldn't have said it that way, but I wasn't wrong in the sense that I feel like I don't know what this is. What is this supposed to really kind of contribute in the grand scheme of things?

So, but, but because I really started to, whether it was, you know, the denim business or the retail business, sorry, the retail business or the real estate business or the F&B business, I really started to take kind of, whether I agreed with it or not, ownership of kind of my, my role in getting it on track, trying to see, see to it as if I was the only business owner there, how to navigate things. And, and I, I had a lot of failures there.

And I think a lot of those failures, I always joke, but there's a lot of truth in the joke that all those failures actually helped me learn a lot, which eventually contributed to the success of my eventual ventures when I came out on my own because I already...

had the good fortune of making mistakes that I didn't have to pay too big of a price for that I would still be able to get up and kind of move forward, right? Well, what kind of failures were these though? Well, the business for one, but I would say that one of the failures is

having a real focus and the right resources dedicated to a particular business. You know, every time that we did not take a business seriously, to be honest, that was more times than not in my ventures to my relatives because it was always just kind of like a dabble on the side. It wasn't a...

It wasn't a real business that they were- - It was a side bitch. - You didn't have your heart in it. - One, you didn't have your heart in it. And not to throw my cousin on the bus, but I think it's kind of something that is- - Is he still in Shanghai? - Not on business perspective, but his famous mantra was, "I can afford to lose this money." When you can say, "I can afford to lose this money," you're absolutely going to lose that money. That is something that I know rings true.

And so one of the things that was different between my cousin and I is my cousin had money. I did not have money. I had no money. So for me, he can afford it, but I cannot. So I think, but anyways, going back, that was one thing where we never had the full focus, but the things that we did have real focus on, we had a good handle on, like the real estate side,

Although you could argue that anything you touch during that time was going to be successful in real estate during those periods, right? Yeah, that was like the golden period. Yeah, the gold rush. If you could only turn back time, I wish I did. Where I would argue that we succeeded in that was that we did capture things at,

the lowest possible cost. And then that allowed us to turn a greater profit than some of the others who could turn a profit, but in a lesser way. But yeah, you know, we're dabbling in all these different industries, not giving it 110%. And the business showed, you know, so many people are hustling at the time. So many people are trying things. It wasn't nearly as competitive of a landscape as it is now. But yeah,

Doesn't matter, right? Because there's always competition and you need to have a unique point that appeals to your end consumer, your end customer for you to make this business work. So that was one thing, not putting kind of your heart in it. And then another one I would say for failures is...

You know, I think this was already mentioned. You have to be passionate about something. You have to believe why you're doing something for you to be an entrepreneur. Because to be an entrepreneur, it's different than having a job that you hate, right? Because your own money, your own time, your own life is 100% dedicated to this. You have a job at corporate that you hate, right?

you're still getting paid on a monthly basis. You could, as you decide to switch careers, look while you're still getting paid. As an entrepreneur, you hate your business, tough luck. Your money's stuck. There's no one else. There's no safety net. Yeah, and if you're one of the main partners and you're not drawing salary, every month that the business does not work,

you're not you're not getting salary right uh my so for boxing cat the first 18 year are we on now right now so so no i kind of skipped a boxing cat but but we started boxing cat april of 2008 um but i didn't come on full time till uh january 1st 2009 i was just one of the uh founders of

in the kind of the capital contribution. And I was there once in a while because I had still a commitment to finish my relationship with my relatives to the end of 2008, even though we had already started the business. - So the first five or six years were still tied up in the relatives and learning. - '02 to '08 was just me working with my relatives, but sometime around '07,

I kind of knew, okay, I'm not gonna get anywhere here that I need to be for myself. It's not a judgment on my relatives, but where I needed to be for my situation, it was different. And I had to kind of look for new opportunities or embark on my own journey, if you will. And so I met Kelly, my current business partner still to this day, and my then co-founding brewmaster, Gary,

And we, we had discussed this kind of fun thing to do American style bistro, which we felt was sorely needed in the market in 2007. And, uh,

uh, adding craft beer to that mix because nobody was doing craft beer successfully in China. So that is really interesting. Cause I can, um, I can like, I'm kind of like flashing back. Right. So tell us a little bit about Kelly and Gary, and then tell us about what the F and B scene was like at that point. I think that'll be really interesting for listeners who either live here or, you know, don't live here, but are curious about the history. So, so anybody who's coming to China in the last, let's say four or five years who, um,

doesn't see China or Shanghai specifically, I would say, as an amazing place, amazing landing spot to kind of just easily merge into China. Just from a culinary perspective, 2002, there was really little to no Western options to speak of. I think as you kind of evolved towards kind of an 2005,

06 period you started having the the element fresh wagas concepts in your life although they were one to two shops uh back then like sandwiches yeah that's it right even when i came in 09 there was very very limited no no wagas for the longest time i mean they're a juggernaut now but wagas for the longest time i would say up to 05 or 06 they only have this one shop

in Sidic Plaza. Sidic. Yeah, that's it, right? And, you know, Ellen Fresh only had this one shop at the Portman and that was it, right? And then if you really wanted a good kind of Italian place,

If we could call it good. DeMarcos? Yeah. DeMarcos. It's still around. Did you know that? Yeah. But those are the kind of the OG places, right? Because, you know, and I think we in 2007, when we're looking at the landscape,

Kelly, coming from a chef background, she's tremendous at what she did. I think we both realized that there's still a big need for kind of like a casual American-style bistro kind of comfort food that was reasonably priced but something at a quality that people could appreciate better than –

What was on the offer for sports bars, which was the predominant American food offer at the time, or a diner, which she also co-founded, but she felt like she could do a bit better than that concept. Which one was that one?

So it was called City Diner. So she was one of the co-founders there. I loved City Diner back in the day. Wait, hold on. Let me flashback one second. That was the after club place. City Diner, was that on Toner and Lou? Yeah, that was the original. So City Diner was... Okay, first of all, just for... I've had so many drunken nights at City Diner. Yeah, yeah. So first of all, for people who were around back then, we'll flashback a little bit. And for people who came to Shanghai a little bit later...

like wagas element fresh. Those are like sandwich salad places. Right. So back in the day in Shanghai, you couldn't even get a fucking sandwich. Yeah. Right. So they started, it's pretty healthy. They're still around. They're very, very successful. You know, we all still go to them.

But to go to like a diner where you could get like a greasy burger, right? Like a legitimate burger. There was only a couple places like Moon River, right? Like to get like a brunch, like just high calories, lots of carbs. It was like Moon River and City Diner. Moon River is the original chicken fried steak. Yeah. And then it's like legit food. And they did it authentically. Like the biggest gripe for us Western people back then was that like,

Like you would walk into a Western restaurant and nine times out of 10 or almost even 10 times out of 10 back then, you'd be disappointed because not to their fault. But you had the standard built up from what you're used to back home. But they would also purposely tweak the menu to the local taste a lot of them, right? Because obviously their business was probably suffering because maybe at first they were doing it like...

the authentic way, the Western way. But then they saw a lot of locals weren't really digging it. So then they had to like tweak it. But then for us who grew up in the West, when we go and then we would expect one thing, but it will come out like very tweaked for the local palate here in China. We'd be like really disappointed because it's just like, what are we expecting? I mean, the analogy would be like getting Chinese food in America.

So I totally get it, right? And then I think also the ingredients was much more difficult because the Chinese palate at that point was still very Chinese and now it's very different. So I remember going to these places and I think it was Greg was one of the owners at Moon River. And so these places are legit. And to your point, these entrepreneurs, pioneers in China,

They had passion for their business, so they used better ingredients, et cetera. But yeah, City Diner, definitely we had amazing. I mean, we had brunch there, but we also had like 4 a.m., just greasy ass. No, Torn and Lou back in the day. We don't remember that. We watched the sun come up many of the time there. Many times. There was the blue frog on Torn and Lou, which I think was their second.

Their first real big full blue frog. Tonga and Lu used to be the first. But Tonga Frog was still that formulaic sports bar thing. But City Diner and Moon River were like, they were customized, right? They're very, very diner style, right? And so we felt like, okay, we could do something, which I'm not saying we were, but we felt we could be kind of a step up from that. And also...

We had met Gary who was already a brewmaster in Shanghai. We didn't have to find somebody. Where's Gary from, by the way? So Gary, he's from Texas. Oh, he's from Texas? Yeah, he's very proud to be a Texan. Oh, shit. Is he still here? He passed away, unfortunately, in 2010. But for us, he was a big personality. He came out here to do Craft Fear with another concept and...

And they had kind of misrepresented the deal to him. So he wasn't happy with kind of what he discovered once he arrived. But he had seen enough of China and probably more so Shanghai that made him believe that craft beer really had a future here and he could play a hand in it. So he didn't want to leave.

And, of course, there was a girl because there's always a girl involved. There was a girl that basically he fell in love with that made him feel like, okay, this is the other reason why I don't want to leave China. And he had heard of kind of our thing, and he had met Kelly through a burger contest judging that summer in 2007. And he kind of said, hey, I heard you guys are doing this.

I'm looking for something apart from what brought me over here. Are you guys interested to add Craft Fear to your offer? And we said, yeah, I mean, absolutely. Because Kelly being from California and me being from Toronto, we had already knew what Craft Fear's potential was at that particular point. I mean, it was still early in the U.S. I wouldn't go as far as to say it was booming in the U.S., but you could already see it as this...

up and coming thing that we both felt was going to not be a fad, but something permanent in the U S and, uh,

We all agreed that it was probably still a bit too early for China, but we felt if we could add the quality American-style bistro concept to it, people could first enjoy the food and then make their judgments about the beer and learn about the beer as they go, right? So that's what brought Boxing Cat together. So what came first, the food or the beer? The food definitely came first because Kelly and I...

first discussed doing something together before we even met gary and then he had heard about okay you guys are doing this thing i'd be keen to to come on board if you guys this is 0809 this is 07 07 yeah so so this was uh basically summer 07 when we met gary and uh we signed her we we signed our spot actually it was uh kind of a funny story right so

We started talking early summer about doing this and we had all said, okay, cool. You know, Gary's going to leave his gig that, that brought him here. We're going to start embarking on trying to find a location. We're going to establish a company. We're going to, we're going to do this. So this was June, 2007, July. Can't find anything in terms of location. That's suitable. August. Can't find anything that's suitable. Um,

At this point, I've also had this conversation with my cousin already saying like, hey, you know, I'm going to embark on my own thing. He didn't take it that well, but I was like, look, I feel like we've kind of come to the end of the road here. So I...

Whether you like it or not, this is happening, right? And so everybody has given their commitment to this project. But yeah, we can't find a location. And Kelly, this was basically right before October holidays.

This was... Three months had gone by. We had not found a suitable location. Well, that's because you guys weren't... Nothing was kind of up to snuff to what you guys wanted? Yeah, well, they're really... I think being fair, it was just actually...

something of a weird kind of devoid of suitable spots. All the spots that we did see were either not great in terms of location, which is saying something because there's still a lot of opportunity back then, right? Or it was too expensive for what we could afford, right? And so, you know, Kelly had made plans to go somewhere for October holidays on vacation.

And she said, look, guys, I know we've all committed to this, but I can't keep putting this isn't the only offer I have on the table to do something. I can't keep putting things off for this if it's just going to be kind of an endless journey to find location. So I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but.

if I come back, which she was going for, I think like three weeks back to the US or something. And she said, "Look, when I come back and we don't have anything and we don't think we're gonna have anything anytime soon, I probably have to think about why." - So she gave a deadline to the project. - Yeah, I probably have to think about maybe another project idea. I can't just do this indefinitely. And as luck would have it, during that time she was away,

One night, Gary was having this conversation with another guy at a random bar just about brewing beer. And Gary's been known to drink and ramble. So he's rambling about making beer. And this Chinese guy just rocks up to him at the bar and says, hey, you know how to make beer? And Gary's like, yeah, you know, I'm a brewmaster. So the guy's like, okay, great, because...

I have equipment. Do you want to help me make beer? And so the basic pitch went,

They have this equipment. They have a location. They have a company who's the parent company, I should say, where the business is water filtration. And they had heard that one of the best key ingredients of making a good beer is the quality of the water. So to showcase how great their water filtration technology was in China, they wanted to make

high quality beer to showcase the quality of the water. That's pretty cool. So, you know, they're, they're so serendipitous. Right, right. But, but that, that was China early on, right? Like you never know. Where did they meet? Was it at a bar? At a random bar, yeah. And he had overheard Gary talk to, he was sitting beside them. We should go to more bars. We should go to more bars. They had overheard Gary, right? And,

And then like, and then yeah, so Gary went out and went to take a look at the equipment and they have this kind of basically 350 square meter over three floors kind of space. And they're going to do their bread and butter, which is the water filtration. And they also had a fireplace business and they just want to kind of like to put this equipment here to showcase the quality of the water.

And this was where the American school was in Puxi. So past Hong Chao Airport out west. Oh, right. So this wasn't even a business idea for them. It was just like you said, they were just wanting to do this to showcase. Yeah, it was like the real business was the water. Yeah, they weren't making this as a business, just marketing. Like I already...

I already have this main business. I just want to... I heard... A great testament to water quality is a great beer. So I want to make a great beer. That's a testament to creativity of people in China. That's why China is like... Yeah. I mean, it's coming up, right? I mean... People are creative motherfuckers. You got to give them credit, right? Because...

Yeah, that is a stretch by any means, right? But Gary went out and he's like, okay. It's not where we want to open, out in the middle of really nowhere, right? But there's a lot of villa communities around the American school. There's the American school, the British school, and not too far away, there's the French-German school. So you have this villa of expat students

communities here that already know what craft beer is could appreciate western food this might be kind of like a diamond in the rough nobody was there on that strip other than starbucks and a papa john's and a rendezvous do you guys remember rendezvous that was one of the initial burger joints i don't remember no it was one of the initial burger joints that was good but uh anyways so so rendezvous was there and rendezvous the only game in that whole strip for the community so he's like

all right guys you know i've come here i've taken this look at your equipment uh i can't make beer for you because i have business partners that have committed to and i don't want to just consult on this but why do you guys want all this space you don't need uh you know 350 square meters for your fireplace and water filtration uh kind of business why don't you just focus on that you take uh as much space as you need for that run

rent us the rest of the space at a great rent and we'll operate it and we'll serve the beer and say it's from your water filtration technology. Right? And so that's how the first Boxing Cat was founded. So the first Boxing Cat wasn't on Fuxing Xilu? Yeah, it wasn't on Fuxing Xilu. What? It was way out in the American school. Did you know this? No, because I thought Fuxing Xilu was the OG location. No, no, that was the first city location, but that was 09. So in 08, we opened in the middle of fuck nowhere. Yeah.

uh near the american school right but it seems like you had a lot of demand but no supply and then once you guys moved in there must have been uh the business must have been pretty good so interesting that you you say that because you know we so we opened out there uh after kelly came back we're like all right there's this location everybody went there the rent was pretty good we're like oh this is amazing we found a diamond in the rough

We're going to crush it because there's no competition out here, right? So we go there. We all kind of go through the design and we open it up April 2008. Great opening party in May. Great in June. July, kind of a dead ghost town because everybody that lives there, summer break, they're all gone.

And, okay, I guess this is a Judy town, right? Like, there's no people there. But it'll get better in September when everybody comes back late August and, you know, get back into the swing of things. Tough on a new business, but hey, you know, this is the location we chose. So, yeah, we weathered July and August, which are tough. And then we come to September. Okay, great. You know, I'm kind of back on track.

uh, sorry, October hits. Oh, and that's the global economic kind of downturn recession. October 2008, right? Yeah. That community is mostly comprised of the big three auto from the U S. Oh, so, so GM Chrysler, Ford, um, and, and, uh,

Yeah, basically most of our, so it's a community business. And with community businesses anywhere, especially where it involves expats, you have customers who have made up their minds whether they're your customers or not already because, yeah, it's a community. There's no new people. There's no foot traffic passing by all the time. It's just this set crowd. Right.

And so when you lose a huge chunk of your customer base that has decided that they are your customer base, you're not gonna just fill it with people from other means because those people aren't coming for a reason. So here I am, I committed to my family to finish out 2008 and I put all my money into this business and I've committed to this business full time starting January 1st, 2009.

this place is now basically at a brink of losing all the money, uh, come December of that, that we put in, even though it was a very promising start for us, uh, with economic downturn. And, you know, we, we had this kind of, uh, come to Jesus conversation, right. Between the three of us. And we're just saying, Hey, I need to tell you guys, you guys being Kelly and Gary, you know, um,

As much as I believe in my own abilities, I don't think it's a matter of how much time spent in this particular business that's going to make a difference for us. You know, I think this business is a community business. There's only incremental improvements that we're going to be able to make.

We need to have a decision about whether we want to continue or not because I don't see the point of me putting 100% of my time coming out here every day. And I think Kelly also understood the business and she agreed and Gary as well. And so we had a decision. Either we said this is not...

Shanghai is either not accepting this concept or we're too early for this game in terms of adding craft beer to it. And we need to just kind of salvage our losses and kind of go on our respective lives however we need to or...

We dig, and it goes back to my point earlier about finding, you know, kind of ways to get the job done no matter what, right? Like that mindset. Dig. Like being gritty. Yeah, believe that you're onto something. And we had reasons to believe we're onto something. Like I said, the first...

Two to three months were actually very encouraging. Yeah. We also had a lot of media who had come out and said they love it or people who came out from the city center who said they absolutely loved it. And this was back in the day where they reviewed by sending emails to the magazines. There was no online kind of platforms and people were...

doing print of people's reviews, right? And we had always gotten amazing reviews, but people didn't really want to drive out like an hour and a half to two hours just for a meal. And you knew your customer base because they were coming in regularly. So you could tap into their... You could...

talk to them. Yeah. And they would tell you what was going on and you knew people and you knew who was coming in regularly. So you had a good pulse. We had a pulse. And, and like I said, we, we, we knew that people had raved, um,

about it when they were willing to make the trek from the city. But the community, that business was kind of there. And there's nothing that through time spent, extra time spent, that was going to change the big direction. So what ended up happening was we decided, look, we should have opened in the city anyways. We opened out here because of this random opportunity that kind of came by. And what we really need to do is

find ways to raise money to open in the city. And that's basically what ended up happening. I had to go the old traditional way of begging and clawing for money with relatives. After you left a business.

They owed me though. They owed me. They were like, fuck you. Well, you were like, peace motherfuckers. A few months later, you're like, uh, hey guys. Hey, I like that tie you're wearing today. Did you lose weight? You're looking good. No, but I, I think, um, the, the, the thing for me was, yeah, find, find a solution, um,

I was fortunate enough that my uncle felt bad about how things had ended between us. And I think he took pity on me and gave me a loan. And the truth was, had I not made the business work,

I had no idea how I was going to pay that loan back, but it's fine. I pitched him this idea. Oh yeah, my parents are good for it. My parents were not good for it, but I was like, yeah, they're good for it. You know, we're Canadians. It's all good. We're not going to lie to you. We're family. But basically, yeah. And then, and then Kelly found a way to raise money and Gary basically sold half of his shares to one of our customers who really believed in the concept concept.

in that Judy town area who is still one of our partners to this day. He basically came up with a 2X the valuation to cover Gary's part to open in the city. And to the conversation earlier, when we kind of started

the renovation and the get up for the Fuxing Xilu location. At that point, nobody was doing business out there other than Jay-Z. There was nothing there that's a just that. Right down the street. The jazz club. Let's, for the listeners who may not know, it's not Jay-Z, the rap artist. No,

I wish it was but it was not Jay-Z the first jazz club it's not Young Ho it's not Young Ho it was the first it was one of the first not necessarily the first jazz clubs but it was the only action on that street because the main strip was Henshan Lu still back then even Anfu Lu was not that

Han San Lu and Bourbon Street. Yeah, exactly, right? Han San Lu, Bourbon Street, real love, that whole thing. And so basically, yeah, we felt it's a little bit away from the Dongping Lu action. But at the same time, you know, it was a stone's throw away from that area, right? The Sasha's, the Blarney Stone's, the O'Malley's and whatnot. So...

We were getting it at a cheaper rent. It was a nice looking old garden home that we could get a reasonable rent for. We were very gung-ho about it. And yeah, we sought out to open. And as we put up all the kind of the facade stuff,

everybody said oh boxing cat is coming the media really helped us out and said like this place is amazing for all those people who never made the two hour and a half to two hour trek out there you know now this is your chance well did the media come like naturally like like because they were just big fans of boxing cat or did you guys seek them out no no and also back then uh the media was also a community that's just embedded in the expat community right like they

By the way, I mean the expat magazines, not necessarily Chinese. Right, right. That's Shanghai City Weekend. Yeah, like City Weekend. And then I think Smart Shanghai also was back then already kind of a big platform. And all the editors were just kind of helping us push that.

Because they genuinely like the concept and they're excited about something different. They wanted to stick around because there wasn't any other idea. So do you think that landscape is a lot different now? Because these magazines like That's Shanghai, City Weekend, Smart Shanghai, they have so many other Western places to choose from. Everyone in the kitchen sink kind of comes into Shanghai now. No, I don't know that I would say that, although it is definitely different. I would say that they're still pretty keen on...

new spots. But certainly, to your point, there's a lot more selection nowadays that they're more discerning about what they endorse. But, you know, back in 2008, obviously, they actually have to like your concept. But if they like your concept or believe in your concept, I think even as media people, they were just as excited

about something as if you were a patron. Because they were part of the community. Because they were probably customers themselves. Yeah, they were. And they wanted to break news because the crowd here was hungry for good concepts. The crowd here was hungry for good things because there was a devoid of that.

The feeling back then was there's a handful of places that you like. And that was maybe it. Yeah. And to paint the background, it's like, I mean, you know, like when you came out, you were a pioneer, right? Like what you described. It wasn't like you were walking to the Bund and there was like, you know, a hundred of you. You were like a pioneer. And then people started moving out. And it was hard to get a burger. And there was a community. There was definitely a community of people.

that loved being in China at the same time, they hungered for some of the creature comforts of being back home. I remember when Boxing Cat opened, it was like... I mean, every time something opened, it was... You know how exciting it was? Do you remember... Okay, so I think we'll flash back for a second. So I don't remember the first time I met you. I mean, because we don't know each other that well, but off and on, we have a lot of the same friends.

But I definitely remember at least early on one time I met you was in probably 2010. And we had our fantasy football draft at your place. Do you remember that? Like Danny was like in. Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Charles. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I think that was one of the first times. And like, I mean,

like it was so exciting because like you know when you're in the u.s like there's all these amazing places something new opens but like in china when you have a quality place that's like western standard it's like the only one and so people get hyped about it yeah you know they get hype it's like a new club opening it's like oh fuck it's better than a new club it's like i haven't had a good fucking ruben in like five years it is um you know to your point eric it is uh kind of uh

a nod back to nostalgia. It's kind of like this, we're all comfort, we're all creatures of comfort, right? And it doesn't matter if we're happy in our current half stance, but if you don't have something that you're missing when you get it, there's that feeling that, you know, it's just warm and fuzzy, right? And one of the reasons why we started Boxing Cat was

Other than we felt there was a great opportunity for craft beer in China because nobody had been successful doing it, we originally started as American South Bistro. One of the things that I grew up with, and I think a lot of other people grew up with, especially if you're in the suburbs, you have these kind of neighborhood bar, pub, restaurant type places. Yeah.

And you don't really necessarily have one reason, you have a plethora of reasons why you go there. It's somebody's birthday, or you just had dinner, let's go there for a few drinks. - Oh, so we're talking about you with the cheers complex. - Sure, right? And you have this kind of thing that you grew up with, especially in my university years, there's a huge part of my week, right?

Some might even say I sacrificed my studies for this. Some. But you have these places that you really identify with as a collective, you and your group that you're closest with. And later on, Liquid Laundry was also born out of the same

principle, right? What we wanted was this kind of like social house that people can congregate in. And it could be somebody's birthday. It could be to catch a game. It could be just to grab a drink. It could be just to grab a meal. It could be a party because you wanted to take over a floor. Whatever it is, this place was suitable for it. And it wasn't expensive to the point where you feel like, I don't even

went there like once this week or I already went there like once or twice this month. I don't know if I can go there again. You know, like this is a place where hopefully you can frequent as often as you feel like frequenting. And there wasn't this monetary pressure that you felt like, I don't want to go there again, you know? But you know, and it taps into psychology because like, I mean, even now, okay. So like, I mean, that was 10 years ago. Okay. Shanghai,

I had always sort of like... I would always dog on Shanghai and be like, man, Shanghai doesn't have any good shit, you know, compared to Hong Kong, Taipei. No, people can't legitimately say that. Like, Shanghai has an incredible amount of places. Now, it's exceeded. Oh, yeah, it's exceeded, right? So, like, you know, this goes back to this whole standards thing and what we're comfortable with. Okay, the comparison. Right. But even now...

Let's say that you just finished a day of work and then you're with your buddies and you're like, hey, where should we go? Or we just finished a podcast. Where should we go? We always get stuck. We don't know where to go. It's not like there's 100 ideas in our head. And a place like Boxing Cat would just be that one. Like liquid laundry. So my office used to be...

near IPM. So Liquid Laundry, I've been to Liquid Laundry. I mean, I've seen you there a billion times, right? And it's that place, right? You're just like, you know the quality, you know the standard. It's cool, it's close, whatever. There's a million reasons, a plethora of reasons, like you say. But even now, with all the places in Shanghai, sometimes I'm just like, I don't know where to go. By the way,

I was just at Liquid Lounge. It was like a blast from the past. We just went there a couple of days ago and we hadn't been there forever, you know, and we're like, oh, this feels good. So that... Cheers, man. But yeah, I think...

That really helped a lot of people at that time when we opened in the city 2009 to reconnect with craft beer, you know, especially the expat community who already knew the product, right? And so that really allowed us to then open another one a year later. And then... Sinai Mansions. Sinai Mansions. And then...

kind of erase all these fears about me having to make 30 excuses about why I can't pay my uncle back. Your family sounds kind of mafia. Yeah, they sound a little mobster-ish. But look, this takes me back to kind of what I wanted to get to in the first place was really kind of like the craft beer scene here. Like with all the success that you've had,

With F&B. To me, I think the coolest part of it all is that you have your own fucking brand of beer now. Right? And it's a real player here. Boxing cat. And it's...

So like, what is that landscape? Because that landscape in the beginning, there was no landscape for craft beer here in China in the beginning, right? And like for you, T-Guy, I think to probably even get the equipment to kind of brew your own beer would probably be a huge hurdle. There wasn't that infrastructure. There wasn't that community. There wasn't that culture here. And to what it is today now with being a real player and having all these international awards and accolades,

What was that journey like in particular with the craft beer scene from the beginning? I'd love to sit here and tell you that we had all this planned out and this just all part of a huge plan that we had. That's the plan. But it simply was not. As I mentioned already, we never embarked on even doing it in the first place. It was just circumstances and coincidence that we happened to meet Gary, who was already here.

And that was the first point of us embarking on this craft beer journey, this incredible kind of definition of, you know, a big part of who I am now, right? But, you know, to kind of bring it all back, we looked at, we surveyed the landscape back then, and we thought,

We really had an opportunity to do craft beer in China because China already drank beer. This is not like red wine. It's not like coffee. We don't have to introduce this to kind of a whole new palette. This is something that people already knew for better or for worse. Actually, it kind of worked for and against us.

But okay, at least it's something people already knew. It was something that was already gaining a significant momentum internationally that we could use as marketing leverage for us to sell the product here in China.

We, as mentioned earlier, we used a restaurant platform rather than a tap house or a brewery platform right off the get-go, you know, to kind of make that bridge a lot more seamless or a lot more approachable, you know, for people to kind of

come in contact with craft. Why? Because like all your food naturally paired with beer? It wasn't even necessary. We did try that, but it wasn't even necessarily that so much as there's no pressure for you to come here and just drink the beer. You could actually drink whatever you want, right? You can have a whiskey if you wanted. You could have a cocktail if you wanted. Now the beer is there.

we're gonna push it and if you wanted to I'm happy to talk to you about it right and so yeah basically we started with that and if I'm being honest I think the food was just as big of a catalyst as the craft beer and when we were first starting okay fast forward a year later so we opened the Fuxing Xilu Yongfu Boxing Cat as we called it June 2009

Gary all of a sudden passes away of May 2010. Was he a little bit older? He was older than us by a bit, but he was still young, you know, and he passed away in his early 40s.

and it was a heart failure out of the blue, right? And so it- - That had to have been devastating. - Well, we obviously had no contingencies here, right? And so we were already signed at Sinai Mansions, we were building towards kind of opening that one and here we are all of a sudden our brewmaster

just kind of heart fails, passes away. We are fortunate enough to kind of have a team that he cultivated to allow us to identify whom is now still our brewmaster who joined us in October, the day of Halloween, October 31st, 2010, and Michael Jordan, right? And so...

His name is Michael Jordan. Michael J. Jordan, but not Jeffrey. It's James. Michael J. Jordan. But yeah, we embarked on this incredible journey where we went from not thinking about craft beer to starting the first successful craft beer business in China to...

Not knowing what the fuck we're going to do when our brewmaster just abruptly passes away. To then landing somebody who... I think it was a win-win. For us, we were a young business who...

were on track to build our second city location. We were making strides in the Shanghai market and growing craft here in this local market to appeal to him. And we found a guy who, out of the list of candidates that we had, somebody with international craft experience at a high level, somebody who was very...

systematic and the way that he built recipes that could be passed down to the crew and have the crew learn how to brew.

and grow professionally rather than Gary, who, you know, was more of an artist. You know, he's the kind of guy who, you know, if you're trying to learn cooking from him, he's like, yeah, a bit of salt. Nobody really knows what a bit of salt is. He only knows himself how much salt they have. Shoot from the hip kind of guy. Shoot from the hip guy. Yeah, there's no, there's no like, you know, like, I need like, you know, uh,

kilo of this or whatever he was just like yeah a little bit of this a little bit of that right and so but whereas mike was very scientific about the process he's like all right you know these are things that we're going to measure uh he was also because of his background he was very tied in with the international scene in terms of the awards in terms of the kind of competitions and things of that nature so excuse me sorry when he joined us um

He really wanted to bring the... He really wanted to up the game in terms of where Boxing Cat Brewery was. Not only on the China map, but also on the international map. And he wanted to put... It was a discussed mission that we had collectively. It was part of the reason why I joined on because we had this vision that we wanted to achieve. We wanted to become the... Or one of the...

the things that people associated when they thought about craft beer in China moving forward. So that conversation was around building a legacy because we don't know how long we're going to be around in this life. We don't know what we're going to do. But one of the things that we really felt like in 2010 basically was

We have a real chance to have a legacy in China. And how many times can you say that you could have a legacy in life, right? And that was something that appealed to Mike. So did the Gary thing kind of help or make you guys kind of realize that our time on the earth is finite? It absolutely did, right? Because you have one of your closest people in your life just abruptly leave you.

And you really have to think about what is it all for, right? And I'm not saying that you should aspire always to do something like leave a legacy because I think that is not something that you absolutely need. It was just something that we really felt we had an opportunity to do. And at the same time, being longtime expats here, it was always frustrating for me, especially when I started that business,

to hear stuff like it's good for China. I hated that statement. It's good for China. Why did you hate that statement? More because I felt we were better than just good for China. We were better than that statement. Now, I'm not going to go on a rant about this, but I truly believe that we were better than to be kind of boxed in there. And so when Mike

So one of the reasons that I think Mike and us really got to where we got to was Mike also agreed to that sentiment. One of the things that we said was we don't want to just be relevant for China. We want to be one of the founding principles. I should go back is what we wanted when we founded the brand. We wanted to be.

great craft beer, period. Not great for China. And how do you validate that? How do you give the Chinese local drinking crowd who doesn't know anything about craft beer a way to say, what I'm drinking, whether I like it or not... Rivals anything internationally. Rivals something of a high quality internationally. How do I do this? And one of the ideas that we had after Mike joined the team was...

And this credit goes to Mike. I feel like we should start entering in the top competitions internationally to one, let people know that China has more than just commercial beer. They also have a quality craft beer kind of identity now. And then two, I feel like

with me being a part of the team, I could bring our beer quality up to a point where we should be relevant and we should be able to emphasize the original founding principle where we're good period, we're not just good for China. And that completely resonated with Kelly and I 'cause I think with anybody who's doing business,

Yes, first and foremost, there's the business opportunity aspect. You don't want to get into a place where you're losing money, right? But if you could aspire for more than that, what you really want to do is you want to be very proud of what you've created. You want to be very happy with the product that you're sharing with people, right? So you don't want that to come with an asterisk. And that asterisk for me was always...

good enough for China. So I want to comment on that. Um, I'm very passionate about this topic and it really resonates with me. Um, so number one, uh, I, I love what you said. Like the, I think part of the reason that you guys have been so successful is the passion. And you said earlier that, you know, if you want to be an entrepreneur, you got to love what you do. Um,

You said you wanted to be proud of what you've created, right? I think that's what sustains you in the hard times because anything worth doing, it's going to be hard. It's going to be tough because there's a million other competitors out there and you're going to have ups and downs. But if you're resilient, you can kind of get through this. Okay. The other thing is that I'm also a big proponent of high standards. I've been known to...

be hypercritical it comes like i mean you know i think justin's met my family before so it's genetic um and but you know high standards helps you uh like you said earlier in this conversation you get to know yourself by your preferences and i love that and i've always said this

Whenever I go to a place, my bar, my litmus test is if this place could do well where I come from,

right in Texas and Houston if this place could do well there like that's like the highest praise that's the highest praise because then it's great everywhere so like the fact that you put it into competitions you did all these things and I remember the beer you were the first because I remember going to your place like is there a TKO I can't remember yeah TKO Sucker Punch

There's this whole boxing thing that Justin loves. I don't want to cut you off, but that's what I want to clarify. Is it hyperbole? Because I don't know the history, right? Is it hyperbole to say that you guys were the first craft beer brand in China? Or were you guys the first? We're not the first. But you were among the first. Yeah.

I think it depends on how far back you want to dig. So I don't typically ever claim to be the first, but I think it's 100% fair to say that we're the first successful team.

craft beer brand. Cause I don't know of any other. Yeah. I mean like, we were not the first to try, but we're the first successful, first successful one and first one to be recognized on an international level. But you know, like in any industry and like I'm in the tech industry and in any industry, uh,

you know, shit comes out like pioneering stuff. Right. But it's the ones that have the grit and the perseverance. And it's a couple of years later, understanding how to connect, bring that to connect with people. Yeah. It's like, like the first guys that come out, just understand the process and the technology, but the ones that really win, they understand the process and technology. They,

But more importantly, they understand the people. And I still remember that. Like you gave me a feeling. I remember the experience. I remember the three floors. It was fucking busy, right? It's hard to get a seat.

But I remember that the people there, I remember meeting you. I might have even met Gary. I don't know. And like... Well, Gary's a huge Texan dude. I pretty much, I think I remember him. I remember the feeling of your place. And so no matter how good your shit is, no matter how early you are, it's what feeling you give people. And I will remember that. So it's the stories that you created that helped them perpetuate this...

Yeah. Well, ultimately, it boils down to what you're saying when you're connecting with people is identity. And that's one thing that's always to this day, Lee, it's always what most impressed me about everything that you kind of touched in terms of the F&B scene is that you guys were always able to remarkably connect.

brand and have an identity to every concept you guys did. Whether it's the beer, boxing cat, liquid laundry, whatever you guys are doing, you guys have a very clear identity, which cannot be said about every F&B place here, even the successful ones. But you guys have such a clear identity that it really takes on a life of its own.

And it has a community like with boxing cap brewery, like even to this day, like when it comes to American comfort food,

It's got a brand. I don't know any other name. Like there are other names out there. But to me, it's Boxing Cap. It's the Fist of Fury Wings. It's the Cajun Jamalaya Pasta. It's the Pulled Pork Quesadillas. It's all those things that you guys have created here on your menu and with the identity of your whole kind of business concept that really draws people in. And obviously, the food is.

is fucking awesome. Shout out to Kelly, right? Kelly, Kelly in herself, in her own right is a legend here in Shanghai, in China as a chef. So shout out to her in that respect, but everything, it seems like that you touch Lee, uh,

has this really clear identity, really great branding and all the stuff to back it up with. That's what really impresses me about all the things that you do. You're not just a businessman, but everything you do backs it up and has such a clear kind of direction and identity. You know what I'm saying? But, but if, if, if we, uh, you know, kind of, uh, take a step back and we try to kind of tie everything together. Right. So, you know, I feel like, uh,

If we're looking at a career arc or kind of a journey of my time here, you know, so I would say that everything led to a culmination of this eventual end goal that we wanted to create with this business. So when we started Boxing Cat Brewery, based on everybody's previous experience, okay, we knew we wanted to kind of bring craft beer to the forefront of

in whatever ability we had to kind of influence that with Gary, Kelly and I want to bring it to the forefront in China's most international city here in Shanghai. I'd be lying if I said, oh yeah, at that point I want to kind of go national. We did aspire to do that, but that wasn't the foundation at that point. We're just trying to make it a successful business in Shanghai.

Okay, so Gary abruptly passes away. We bring on Michael Jordan as the new head of the most integral part of our business, which is the beer.

The three of us, the nucleus, discusses, okay, where is this vision? The vision is, again, still craft beer introduced to local masses become synonymous with craft beer in China moving forward. That's the goal. How are we going to get there? And then we started kind of making out this blueprint. First of all, we needed...

an experience, which is the pubs, right? So we had the Yongfu Fuxing Xilu location. We had Senai Mansions. And then we needed more than Boxing Cat Brewery to be involved. We needed more players in the game.

we needed to amplify the message and the lifestyle of craft beer as we know it internationally. You're talking about like an ecosystem? Right, an ecosystem. So a few things happened. During this time,

So, you know, let's define this as 2010 onwards or late 2010 onwards. Okay. We now have some like-minded people with the same aspirations in Beijing and Great Leap Brewing. The brew was just opening here in Shanghai at Cary Parkside in Pudong. Okay.

We all knew kind of the pressures earlier on about coming up with the money to procure great international best quality ingredients because

People didn't want to import small amounts of ingredients into China. Let's do co-op buying, you know, to kind of get leverage. Let's, as per Michael's idea, let's put China on the international map. Let's enter top tiered competitions to try to place. If we don't place, fine. But if we place, hey, all of a sudden people heard, whoa, what is this?

Craft beer in China, I didn't know that existed, right? Or quality beer in China, I didn't know that existed. That's the international scene. On the local scene, I don't want to tell you my beer is good because that's very subjective. But I wanted some sort of objective way for people to know that it was a quality product. If you like it, if you didn't like it, I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. But I wanted some objective way

to tell you whether you like it or not, it is a good product. So if I could place at top tiered international events, that gives it a standing that it should have. Yeah. So, you know,

in a sea of marketing as we move forward from this where lots of brands are coming in and all under the craft for your moniker or crown how do you find yourself as a consumer how do you how do you find yourself and what you should believe and what you shouldn't believe I want to give you objective reasons to believe right and then um the other thing was to your point Justin

not just building kind of access to resources and great ingredients, but a greater ecosystem. We had great friends and partners who share the same vision in Beijing to build

craft beer festivals so we started in shanghai we built uh craft beer festivals at senna mansions that you know kind of embody the craft for your lifestyle quality of life craft uh lifestyle so you guys created these festivals yeah personality you know in terms of music in terms of food in terms of uh you know what you're drinking then uh you know the same embodiment in the nation's uh

other capital in Beijing. Nowadays, you'll find craft beer festivals in a lot of major cities. But back then, this was a disgust

between us and like-minded partners here in China who all shared the same vision. How do we really bring craft beer to the people here in Shanghai in a meaningful way that really showcases what we're about and what we want you to identify with, right? So there was that. And then there was a lot of these collaborations with international players now that they knew, okay, China has great craft beer brands.

I want a piece of that and I also want to tell the world that, you know, craft in China has arrived. So how do you work with top international brands to release beers domestically and internationally? And you work with great brands domestically to say, you know, China has great enough brands that we can all work together. So all this kind of allowed us to move forward and continuously building on the craft beer movement to...

You know, what eventually brought us to sell our brand and our whole portfolio to a greater multinational conglomerate that already had, you know, kind of resources in China to kind of continue what we felt would realize the legacy, which is to bring our brand to, you know,

all the markets in China and for all the markets locally in China when they think about craft beer now or moving forward.

the the brand boxing cat or chenzi mo would be relevant in their lives i just did a google search for craft beer shanghai and you know what it popped up to the very top boxing cat of course cheers cheers to that well i'm glad we're doing our jobs lee was that was that kind of a bittersweet victory for you in terms of selling the business at the end of all this at the end of the journey

Because I mean, I would imagine, I mean, I've never been in that position, but I would imagine it'd be kind of bittersweet in the sense that you're letting go kind of a little bit of control over the direction of the business that you've babied and gave birth to from the beginning. But then again, you're probably getting a pretty good payoff for it and you get to sell it off and you get to kind of move on to the next thing in your life. So it is definitely a bittersweet, uh,

I think with any...

business or, uh, kind of a thing that you start, there's always that emotional attachment with it. Uh, especially with, uh, as, as we were discussing earlier, you know, I think if it wasn't already super evident, you know, I, I'm very proud of Fox and Capri. I'm very proud of, uh, the journey that we embarked on. I'm very proud of, uh, the friends that have kind of joined the fight along the way, you know, um,

And, you know, if we're looking at this from all sides, where we, when I say we, I mean Kelly and myself and Mike, we always wanted to bring craft beer to the people and we wanted to make it relevant for the people. So when the opportunity came up,

to kind of look into production, to distribute nationally, that was a no-brainer for us. Okay, we definitely want this. The more and more as we delved into this business, we realized, wow, the capital that's involved with really trying to achieve our dreams...

That's no joke. You know, we're not. That's some real money. Yeah, that's some real money. And that sadly is not the money that we have on us that we could finance ourselves. And at first we started talking to, you know, institutions like PEs. What are we looking at? Private equity firms. What are we looking at in terms of valuation? What we can control, et cetera, et cetera.

I think it's a fairly small community here. Word gets around. And we had never been open to investment, even though people had come knocking all the time in years past. We had never... Why is that? Because we were always comfortable with growing organically based on what we were able to generate from the business, right? And thanks to people like you and Eric, we were always able to kind of

push forward with the revenue that was generated. You know, so Boxing Cat was this very approachable but our core craft beer brand. Liquid Laundry was this designed, higher level experience to bring craft beer to, um,

positioning that we felt it should have and it does have internationally which is all the top tier restaurants all the cool hip places they don't serve commercial beers they only serve craft because you don't serve like garbage wine in the best restaurants why would you serve commercial generic beers and so

If you can't distribute at that time, you can only build that concept yourself. But all this was a kind of a path towards the eventual journey, which is how can I amplify this, right? So when we're looking at building production factories, we realize the money involved, not just building the factory, but also getting the initial distribution was well beyond our own financial means.

And we needed help raising money and talking to PEs, talking to kind of private investors. We realized that you either ran into a situation where you can't get the valuation that you really felt you deserved or you wanted or you

It came with a lot of strings attached. That's almost the case, right? And that strings attached. So we obviously, as everybody knows now, we sold to AB InBev, the whole business. But we didn't initially look to sell the business. We initially looked to bring on investors to take a piece of the business and then to grow together.

But what we realized and one of the reasons why we eventually chose AB InBev as a partner was whether you were wanting full ownership of the business like AB InBev or you were willing to invest in the business partially to see it grow together. I think the ask for control, although it may not seem that way on the surface,

In a very short amount of time, the ask for control, if you were not consistently delivering on your targets, was very similar. So then we were kind of faced with this kind of internal conflict, right? Like either we don't sell the business and we still...

have this potential control of the business, but there's all these kind of... Different voices, opinions. Or fallbacks that will...

will basically lose us our business. You know, like what if I don't deliver? I'm just giving you arbitrary examples. If I don't deliver on my targets in year one, somebody controls the finances all of a sudden. If I don't deliver on my targets year two, somebody now runs the business for me. And these are likely coming from investors who have no experience in your field. Right. And also...

You have not gained anything out of this. If that becomes the case, you are just losing more and more control of the business. Whereas, you know, at least, you know, for better or for worse, at least AV InBev is willing to get in bed with you by, you know, saying like, okay, well, here's something upfront and then we'll grow the business together. Now, where we get to that,

Whether you're happy with that or not is what that is. But we're at least not asking you to take this kind of leap of faith empty-handedly. And they have the experience. And they already have the China resources and network that they could pitch to say, like, this is why I believe we're a good partner for you, right? And so, you know, and going back, you know, when you're younger...

You're very carefree. As I mentioned, I came out right after graduation from university. So I had all the time in the world. I could take on a lot of L's before and just try to bounce right back. Even when I started my first venture in boxing capillary, had I not been able to pay back that loan to my uncle, okay, it was just me and a girlfriend. I didn't have a lot of obligation.

As we embarked later on, I had gotten married. I had aspirations to start a family, you know, and...

So when you look at that particular juncture, which is basically 2016, I would even say mid-2015, not late 2015, you realize that your ability to risk now all of a sudden isn't necessarily as wide of a spectrum as it once was, right? Because if you lose now,

That cost is a lot greater to start over again than what it once was. And so you really need to plan for not only what you need now, but also in the future. So the security, if we're looking at it, the security has to factor into your decision, whether you choose it or not. It has to become a part of the consideration, your decision.

partners in life, whether it's your business partners or your life partners, you can't just look at it selfishly from your own angle. You also have to say you're responsible for more than yourself. Yeah, right. Risk tolerance adapts to that. Yeah. So, you know,

your your decisions aren't always just what you want it's also what collectively uh you guys decide one of the things that made us eventually decide on abm bev as our partner was as i mentioned you know um whether it was industry counterparts whether it was pees who were not looking to buy which is what we preferred they still wanted enough back and or fallback controls that

could result in us losing control of the business anyways, but without any benefit gained. At least AB InBev was willing to give you a portion upfront to say, I'm already invested here. I'm already kind of in bed with you with skin in the game so that... Like our fates are decided together. Yeah, exactly, right? And then the other thing is beside the obvious, which is that gives you a certain financial security, is that...

I think they did have, you know, kind of the resources in place nationally. If we went back to talking about legacies, you know, we want to be synonymous with craft beer or just people seeing something outside of commercial beer nationally from a Chinese perspective.

A lot of times China at this current juncture, you need to be somewhat of a player to be relevant. You can't really just be a super green startup if you want to be relevant nationally. So we needed a partner with that kind of clout, with that kind of reach to really bring us to that level. If that's the kind of legacy that we hope to one day leave behind, even if we no longer own the business. And then I think third of all, you kind of have to,

You kind of have to also take the good with the bad, right? And the bad is the fallout. The people that obviously also feel like, you know, once you go corporate, you're no longer part of the rebellion. Oh, like you sold out? Yeah, you're no longer part of the fight, you know? Do you get that a lot, though? Do people have that sentiment here? So I think how I would say it is this. There is definitely that, right?

Although I don't always care about that from just anybody. I only care about that from people who understood where we came from, why we made the decision. And, you know, if you understand that and you feel one way or another about it,

I'll respect your opinion. But I think if you are somebody who's just trying to jump on the bandwagon or just kind of hop on kind of the popular opinion, I could care less about your opinion, right? And so I think the reality is

we kept some friends and we lost some friends along the way. Really? From that decision? No, I mean, whether, whether I agree with it or not personally, I understand how, how that became a thing, right? Because, uh,

It is the granddaddy of going corporate, right? ABMF is the biggest beer company in the world. Some parts of the world, they're seen as the evil empire, you know, so to speak. I've never necessarily subscribed to that personally, but it's probably one of the reasons why I was able to make the decision to join them. But it's not, yeah, it's not something that,

a lot of people agree with in certain parts of the world. Now, I would argue that in China, nobody went through the kind of oppression or they don't have the kind of clout that they have in certain other parts of the world. For example, the US market and what the craft market had to go through in the US. I don't think in China we have

have that same kind of history or barriers to succeeding on an independent label that really warrants it in the same level of, let's say, hatred, if you will, that you find in the U.S. market. But

I get it. People think if you join one of the corporate guys, you're no longer part of the struggle. You're no longer part of the fight. That's so ridiculous to me, though. That's so ridiculous to me. It's fair, I think. But for me, I've never gotten stuck on that. My thing is I know why I did it. And so I just need to focus on whether I can make why I did it work. And whether we get there or not,

That's, again, on us to say, can we get there or not? And it's not for me to go back and look like, oh, well, should I, shouldn't I? I guess one of the very things early on, as we talked about, you know, you need to

come to Jesus with yourself and just say like, all right, what is it that you want? And then you have to just move forward. You can't always be looking in the rear view mirror or always having one foot in, one foot out, you know? Can't be second guessing the whole time. Yeah, you can't be second guessing. Not if you want to at least achieve what you hope to achieve, right? Well, look, to wrap it up, the...

I got two questions because one thing you just brought up that I have a question about because maybe I just misunderstood was, are you saying you think there are more barriers in the way in the US market than there are here in the China market?

In terms of... For craft brews coming up? No, certainly the U.S. market, I think, is way tougher. This is a wide open market. Just because of saturation? Yeah, saturation. And I think the legal laws of distribution in the U.S. is completely different, right? State to state, there's different laws. There's a lot more strict there. Yeah, and here in China, there isn't that. Although, the flip side of it is...

The first mistake you can make, especially if you're a multinational, is thinking about China as one thing. Different regions in China. Consumption habits are completely different. There might be players or barriers in the market. It's like 50 different countries in one.

Yeah, there's a lot of different cultures, lots of different practices that you cannot say there's one formula that's going to work. And India is probably the extreme example. Because they have the caste system, they have the religious kind of differentiation. But even on a lesser level, China, you know, to do business in the north, in the mid belt, in the south, in the west is completely different. Yeah. Yeah.

So where do you see the future of craft brew in China? I think it's a great scene now. I think there are a lot of local players doing... Are there a lot of local players? Because I still really only know of you guys.

No, no. There are a lot of local players. So there are craft beer kind of societies in every city now, whether it's tier one, tier two, tier three. There are home brewing societies in every tier one, tier two city. But let's be honest. Can any of those kind of touch where you guys are at right now? No, but that is the seed, right? It's the seed to start and it's the way it starts everywhere. Home brewers eventually become...

professional brewers who eventually become the innovators of the industry. And, you know, I think one of the things that I hope moving forward is more and more of the local Chinese, which by the way, they're making tremendous strides, but the local Chinese startups, you know,

they will eventually become one of the top players if not the top player in the game and it's not just the people like me like some of the other guys in the game where we came from a background already understanding what craft beer is and maybe they'll even give some sort of spin to craft beer that is respected internationally that was born out of China right and there are players that are already doing this but I

I think ultimately I salute anybody who is still trying to help build and move this machine forward. We're not even 1% of the market right now, whereas you look at the US market,

Even with the new definitions, I think you're over 13% of the beer market. It should be more, but with the new definitions, they've cut out a lot of the players because once you're above a certain size, they no longer consider you craft. It's like Brooklyn Lager. So basically, even with the new definitions, it's still...

eons beyond what China is. So China's not even cracking the surface in terms of the potential. And I love to see people kind of go get it. And, you know, it goes to tie it all back. You know, it goes to the spirit where, you know, you're in China, you're at a time where the country's still growing, the economy's still growing.

If we rewind to when I first came, it was kind of a wild west. It was wide open as an entrepreneur. And you really, if you have the good fortune, you can really get behind something that you believe in and just throw everything that you have at it. And hopefully what comes back at you is something that you can be proud of. And if you're really lucky, it could become a legacy that you can identify yourself with moving forward.

Well, Lee, well put, well said. Thank you for coming on this show. It was a great conversation. I love having you around. There's a lot to be learned. Yeah, and just thank you, man. You're awesome. Thanks, guys. Cheers. Thanks for coming on. And I wanted to, to the spirit of being a pioneer,

and adventure and like being so resilient. I did want to give a shout out to a great mentor, a leader friend, my friend Heidi. She just spent five years in China, did amazing things. What's up, Heidi? What's up?

One of the bravest and funniest people that I know as she's on to her new adventure with her husband Steve in India. So good luck. That might be the next frontier. Oh, yeah. Craft brewer in India. Do your craft brew. Yeah, do your craft brew. And when you're back in Shanghai, we're going to get you on the show. Hell yes. Right.

All right, guys. Well, that's it for today. Thanks, Lee, again. We had some great Arbor whiskey. I'm Justin.

I'm Eric. All right, guys. Peace. Peace. Thank you, guys. Glad to be here. Later.