Ep 130: The Secret Sauce of a Successful Copywriter with Lindsay Smith
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by Awesome Step, how using a podcast can and will grow your business. So grab a glass of wine and pop your headphones on because girlfriend happy hour has begun here on The B Word. All right, babes, welcome back to another episode of The B Word. Today I've got Lindsay Smith on. Lindsay is

I'll call her a wordsmith. She is a copywriting goddess who really understands what words can do for your business. So Lindsay, take it away and tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got started. Yeah, for sure. I'm Lindsay. I live in Canada. And yeah, I'm a copywriter and a content expert. So I've been sort of working full time in that space for the past 20 years. I actually started my career as a

journalist. So I was a broadcast journalist and I sort of accidentally fell into advertising where I stayed for about 12 years. I worked as a copywriter. So traditionally in advertising, the way it works, you pair a copywriter up with a art director and basically you're given like a brief for whatever product or service and you have to work together to come up with a bunch of ideas for ads. So I did that for a really, really long time. And

And then because it was very good in like the digital side of stuff, like back in the day, there were banner ads and stuff. I don't think we see those anymore. I do remember those. Yes. Yes. So I was doing a lot of that. I was doing a lot of like web copy type stuff, email campaigns. So it just sort of lent itself more to like content and social media. And oh my gosh, even when I was working full time, I was like in like social media management. That was like probably 10 years ago. And that

it was very different then than it is now. Like it was like basically, you know, I'd create like a Word document for clients and be like, and it was like a Facebook business page. It was like, here's what I'm going to write on this day. And here's the image that's going to go on that. So that's what it looked like. And then it sort of shifted a bit differently. And it's why I was working full time doing like social media stuff. And then I'm sure a lot of your listeners know after you have kids, it's just like sort of not sustainable anymore.

And so after I had kids, advertising is such a transient industry that so many people I had been working with, they just sort of started contacting me and they were like, hey, do you have some time to help us with this pitch? Do you have some time to write this web copy? And I was like, sure. Okay. I just kind of sort of took on clients that way.

And then eventually it just sort of, yeah, I just sort of started gaining social media clients and took them on myself. And then sort of two, three years ago, it became so easy to do other people's content for them. And I was kind of like, it just became kind of boring. And it was like, I could do it in my sleep. It wasn't very exciting. And then I came up with this idea. I was like, I wonder if like all of this, like 20 years of experience I have, I wonder if I could teach other people what I know. And

And so like teach them to do it for themselves. So that's what I do. I still do take on like done for you copywriting clients. And I really nerd out on that. Like I really nerd out words. We all nerd out on something. Yours is words. Yes. Yep. And then but more on like the content side, that's more sort of where I teach other people.

Okay, that's what I do. So question for you from someone like me that I have so many thoughts up in my head and I find that they sound great here. And when I put them on paper or a caption for IG, like suckage happens. So do you find that it's easier or is there a different method to writing captions for Facebook versus Instagram versus TikTok versus LinkedIn? Or can you write one caption and use it for all of them? I say write one caption and use it for all of them.

Okay, so there's no real difference. I mean, I don't use LinkedIn very much for my own self. I know people have a lot of success with it, depending on what kind of industry you're in. Like I have one client who's like, she's a financial coach. So she gets a lot of clients through LinkedIn. You know, I think it really depends what industry you're in. And I'm like, I'm not like sort of your average content person. I'm very much about like simplifying it.

And I feel like you're going to get strategies never going to go anywhere. It's always going to be around forever, never, never. Right. When it comes to content.

What I feel like nobody's really talking about is like we talk about like really feeling good about the stuff you're putting out there and like really aligning sort of like your energy and your intuition. And I think and a lot of people come to me because they're like the same. They're like, I have all these ideas. It's all messy. And so one of my, you know, my superpowers is to take that really messy stuff in your head and like make it make sense and be like, here's your plan for the next like 30 days. And here's what we're going to do.

And most of my clients, when they work with me, one of the questions I always ask is like, how does this feel? Like, I want people to create content that feels good.

If somebody tells you, oh, this is what you should do, that should word. This is my favorite emoji. This one. I don't believe in the should of anything. Stop shoulding all over yourself. I love that. That may be the quote from this episode. Stop shoulding. All right. So let me pick your brain a little bit about what is the hot topic in its chat GPT from a copywriter word perspective.

Specialist, you love words. Like, what is your thought behind the AI? When to use it, when not to use it? Do you hate it, love it, live with it? This might be an unpopular opinion. I'm like a real grandma when it comes to chat GPT. I was at a

I attended a training on it and I was kind of like, okay, I'm going to give this a chance. Like, let's see, you know, I followed like all the prompts that we were given, copy sorted the voice, like the brand voice of all of us by putting it like our website copy into the thing and giving these specific prompts. And the stuff it spat out, I just was like, this is horrible. And I would never write this. Like, I just feel like, and most people, and I ask this question a lot because I'm very curious about people who do use it.

I want to know what are you using it for and like, how is it benefiting you? Because I am very curious. And most people say like, oh, yeah, it's really great for this, this and this. But, you know, I have to go in and edit it all. I'm kind of like, well, what's the point? And as somebody like and as a person who writing copy comes so easily to me, I'm kind of like, why would I put all this stuff in this thing, have it spit something out at me and use words like how

I'm with me on a journey. Like I would never say that in an email. Yeah. So Buzzsprout, which is my podcast platform, they recently released AI for like that, that short, you know, episode blurb that goes out on your podcast. And I was like, all right, I'll try it. Yeah. No, the title came up with and the wording it put in there. I'm like, you can tell such a difference between the episodes I used AI and the ones that I wrote myself because it just didn't sound right.

at all like something I would put in there. Yes. And I played around with it a little bit since then. And I'm kind of like, I had bigger expectations or something. Like I used to always buy cottage cheese. I was like, one day I'm going to like this. No, I don't like cottage cheese. Just don't buy it. That's how I feel about Chachipi Tea. I'm kind of like, I don't, I don't like it. And I'm not. I think it has its place in some things. And I think it probably, someone who's not using a copywriter and struggles with writing, it probably does at least get them started.

I just I'm not sure I'm bought into completely letting it take over your world where you need your copy written. Yes. And I think, you know, for the longest time, it was kind of like the robots are coming for your job. Right. Like, you know, and I think a lot of copywriters were kind of like, oh, what's happening? What do we do? And now I'm not that worried about it. Well, I mean, if you think about it, it's kind of like Carvana, you know.

people thought that Carvana might put car dealers out of business because now you can just basically order your car from a vending machine. And now Carvana is actually the one filing for bankruptcy because what they discovered is people still want to drive the car that they're going to purchase before they pay the money for it. Yeah. And I think, you know, the type of client that I work with, they want something very specific. And I don't think, like, I don't think it's going to go away. I don't think people are going to want to not work with other people anymore. So, yeah.

For sure. Like somebody who does want to use ChatGPT and use it to create web copy or descriptions or ideas or whatever. Amazing. That's maybe not my client. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.

All right. So what is your favorite client to take on to write their copy for? Like websites or course material or books? Oh, this is a good one. Do you always write books? No, I never have. No, I never have. I'm much better at editing books than I am. I mean, I've attempted to write a book many times, but... And that's another thing. I just was like, yeah, I always felt like I should write a book. And I was like, I don't want to.

I don't want to. So, yes, usually it's people. Most of my like done for you clients come to me because they've probably like DIY their website copy. And I know. Do you notice when you do that, that puts your hand up? I came to that. Yeah, I know. Oh, yeah. Yes, exactly. Yes. So you're my you're my ideal client. I'm like, yeah, I did that. OK. Yeah.

And it's usually, like, usually, like, people like you, you have all the information. It's just a matter of getting it. And this is why it's so hard to describe what a copywriter does. Like, yes, we use words. We use the right words in the right order to evoke the right emotion. Like, it's a really combo deal. And it's kind of like a sixth sense, right? And so usually, you're kind of my client. Like, they've DIY'd their copy. It doesn't really make sense. They're not happy with it. It's not converting. It's not converting.

They're like nobody, you know, sometimes it's a sales page and people are, you know, it's not converting. So usually it's just about clarity. Like it's just about taking all that stuff that you already know and putting it into

a format or words that makes sense and makes the biggest impact. That's usually the way it works. And so right now, I do want to jump in really fast for everyone who's like, oh, let me go to joannbolt.com and check out what Lindsay did on the website. I didn't have her yet, although I will. We haven't gotten to every page on the site yet. So if you find those pages like the homepage where you're kind of like, I'm not really sure this sounds great. Don't worry, Lindsay didn't write that. That was me DIYing it. If

if you find that page in the site that you're like, damn, this like flows good. Yeah, she probably had her hands all in that one. So give me a little grace here as I'm working through things. Okay. No, to be fair, there's a lot of great stuff on your site. Oh, it is literally me like just do-do-do-do-do whenever it comes, pops out of my head. So. Yeah. And

And sometimes that's what it takes. Like sometimes, you know, and a lot of people come to me because they have kind of like done it themselves. And it's usually like an editing gig, like all the information is there. You just have to reorganize it so it makes sense and it's clearer.

And I think one of the critical things to use someone like you, your genius is, you know, maybe my homepage, if I want to pinch pennies or whatnot, she's not expensive by all means. So don't think that I was pinching pennies, but like the homepage. Okay. It drew you in. You heard my voice because it's all over the place. But when you're talking ladies about like a sales page where you need to take a customer on a journey to where they actually hit the purchase button, like,

That's when I don't recommend DIYing it because you may know in your head like this product is the bomb. It is awesome. Of course, they're going to hit the buy button and pay the money.

And then you're finding out that they're not like, like that is definitely when you've got to reach out and say, okay, go fix this because I've missed the mark somewhere. And I think that's very, very common. Like most people's website, it's like, yeah, everything else, you know, like the basic stuff, my about page, my services, whatever, all that is looks great. It's usually when people, it's usually a sales page where people get a bit mucked up. So like, you know, what was great about you is that you were very clear about the product you were offering, right? Yeah.

So you knew exactly what the benefit was. Like you knew what people were going to get from it. You knew what you wanted to say about it. So for me, it was super easy to put it into words. What's tricky sometimes is when people come to me and they're not really sure what they're offering. That part, if you're not really clear on what you're offering, it's very hard to describe what it is, obviously. Okay, well, let's pick that boat up because ladies, if you're not clear on what you're offering, that could be the first step as to why you're not making sales. Mm-hmm.

If you can't communicate it to your copywriter because you don't really know what you're selling, like let's have an in-depth conversation over what your offer and product is before we bring in the people that put the bow on it. Yes. Yes. And I think sometimes I feel like, you know, especially as women, we're often sort of like married to this idea of like,

what we should, there's that word again, what we should be doing or like what's expected and what we really want to do and what we really want to offer and what we're really good at. Like I have this conversation a lot with a lot of women entrepreneurs. They're like, you know, I have this thing and, you know, I really love working with da-da-da-da-da-da-da, but I don't want to leave out these people. And I'm like, why not? Why can't you leave those people out? Yeah, let them go to someone that is more aligned with them.

Because if you're bringing in people into your world that you're not aligned with, like they're not going to have the experience that you want them to have anyway. And so it's better to not speak to them and speak to the people that are going to have the right experience because you'll get better clients and more long lasting business. Yeah. And

And sometimes it's just about owning that and just being like, yeah, this is what I'm going to do. This is what I'm going to focus on. Right. Yeah. You know, and I hate the word I have a I really don't like buzzwords. I hate the word niche. One of my favorites, but that's OK. Is it one of your favorites? Yeah. Well, it's the concept, maybe not the word, but like you really do need to niche down. You want to rephrase it as get clarity, get clear, pick a lane and stay in it. Yes. Yes.

Whatever you want to call it, it is when you speak to the masses, you speak to no one like that. Yes, that is very true. So niche target audience, ideal audience avatar, like whatever you want to call it, like all those the same concept. Yes. And you do need to get really clear on that. Right. Like, you know, there was someone in one of my networking groups and she was very clear on working with women over 50.

on weight loss. And I was like, well, that's golden, right? Like, because already, you know, if you start here and you go like this, well, then you know exactly who you're speaking to every single time you show up, right? And it's not like, and it wasn't even like overall fitness of whatever. It was very clear on weight loss. And I was like, well, that's brilliant because- And I love that because let's be honest, she could have probably-

tried to do overall fitness and thought she was narrowing it down overall fitness for women and then when you get into over 50 because metabolisms have slowed and life habits have changed and

weight loss plans and nutrition looks different at 50 than it does at 40, 30 and 20. And so if you tried to put one program together, you were going to lose the people. Well, and that's it. And it just makes your job so much harder, right? Like it's, you know, even when I work with people who have like a physical product, and I do work with a lot of people who have like a physical product, like sometimes they have a hard time describing the

the products. And that, to be fair, yeah, a lot of what I do is like product descriptions. Sometimes you just like do so much of it. It just all sounds the same after a while. Yeah. For example, I was working with someone who she sells like yoga accessories, like bolsters and, you know, like the lovely lavender eye bags and stuff like that. Eye bags. No, that's what it's called. Mask. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah.

I've got my own iBikes. Clearly, I don't use them because look at these. Like you could pack for Europe, but okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I feel you. Anyways, and so she's up with her product descriptions because sometimes I find that you're so in it, like you just can't even see straight. And it's the same for my own business. Like I redid my website not too long ago. So a girlfriend redesigned it all. She was like, okay, I need some copy for like these programs. I just was like, okay.

Yeah, and it just, it took me a minute to be like, what do I want to see about my own stuff? So sometimes when you have so much information about your own business, it's tough to like extract it and be like, what's really important for people to know? Well, and being able to utilize someone

Someone who's, you know, whole world revolves around putting words together. But now they're looking at your product, your service, your, you know, your offer from a fresh perspective. And so they can put the words together from the consumer who doesn't know anything about it versus you're so in it that you it doesn't dawn on you that someone doesn't understand a jargon that you're using or the why they should have something. Yeah.

Yes. And I think sometimes we forget, right? Like I was working with someone recently and she had a lot of acronyms. And I was like, okay, so somebody like finding your content, would they know what those acronyms mean? She was like, probably not. I was like, no. Well, then spell it out. Like, okay.

you know, and that's an example of being so in it that like you often have to write like you're speaking to a five year old because and you have to repeat it like you would with a five year old, because like depending on how people are finding you via whatever content they're finding you, you kind of have to explain it again and again. Like, for example, like, you know, I have this like email freebie training. Right. And even in the in the subject,

It was kind of like, you know, typical sort of like lead magnet. Like, you know, when you sign up, you get an email. Awesome. Thanks for signing up.

And then, you know, you get an email a day for five days. And then I was kind of like, you know what? People's inboxes are so flooded with stuff. Yeah. Why don't I put the name of what they signed up for in the subject line? So even that little tiny piece of word. So each five emails they got, the name of what they signed up for is in the subject line. Yes. So like, listen, I'm producing emails.

email sequences and I wouldn't think to put Joanne Bolt but I did actually see the other day in my inbox it came from Lindsay Schwartz at Powerhouse Women and it had in brackets Lindsay Schwartz next like

And then it had the email subject line. And I actually read that one because I was like, oh, yeah, that's an email that doesn't need to go in junk. I actually like her material. And Amy Porterfield recently started doing some of that, too. She used to send out stuff all the time because she's a list building queen on email. I'm over your air quoting if you're not watching the YouTube or the live. But she's recently started putting in blocks, Amy Porterfield, or she'll put the name of the course like list building, blah, blah, blah, or...

you know, digital course account. So you know what you're about to read. And I found myself, I'm more likely to click the button and read the email.

Yes. Yeah, exactly. So it's like tiny little things like that, that people often don't think about because we're so in it. It's so hard to be like, okay, well, what's on the other side? Right? Like if I was the person receiving this email, and that's why it's so important to like test your emails and send them to yourself to be like, how would I receive this? I think there's like an episode of Friends or something where like, I don't know, maybe I'm making this up. Like you write a letter to yours. You're like, you write a mean letter to someone, then you send it to yourself. Yeah.

Reread it. I haven't seen... Well, maybe I have seen that episode. I feel like I've seen all the Friends ones, but that one's not coming to mind. But... Well, maybe... I don't know. Maybe I made it up. I'm not saying it's not. I'm just saying...

In the vast knowledge of Friends stuff, that one probably just isn't in my brain because I did watch some Friends episodes the other day on the airplane. I was like, I don't remember these episodes, but I was like nine when that show came out. So there's that. Does it stand up to the test of time? Like, is it still funny? Well, so the funny thing to me is I do still find it funny. But now that I'm rewatching it through the lens of a mom, because my teenagers have recently fallen in love with Friends and they're going back through all the old episodes.

Some of the jokes they make, I cringe because I'm like, oh, do I? I'm so uncomfortable sitting here in the room next to my 13 year old as they're talking about some very sexual stuff. But then I'm like, I didn't catch that when I was their age. They're, you know, maybe they're catching it because they have access to YouTube than TikTok and they're probably more advanced than I was, you know, like knowledge wise.

But still, like, yeah. So now it stands up to time, but it's a little bit more cringeworthy as a parent. Yes. Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. Still, my favorite episode is the turkey on the head. Courtney Cox. I'm sorry. Yes. Yeah. We're going on a great tangent. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good. Yeah.

Anyways, I don't know. I'm sure there's a lesson in Friends we could talk about. They're copywriting all day long. All right, let's lay this plain for just a second because I do want to jump in and point out because my listeners are obviously women entrepreneurs. They have podcasts that feed into their business. And I think that one thing we either overcomplicate or we don't think enough about, and there's the two sides of the scale, you overcomplicate and overthink it, or you

you don't think about it at all is the written description of your podcast. I know a lot of people re-record the intro to their podcast over and over and over again until they get it right. Yeah, me too. I've been through like 12. But how do you feel about that four to five sentence description that lands, you know, if you go to Apple and you look up someone's podcast, it immediately tells you what it's about. How critical do you think that is compared to just the titles of the episodes?

I would say, how do you search for podcasts? Or how do you find podcasts that you love? Like, I'm pretty sure it's usually referral-based or someone you know in your network.

I would say if I had to guess, I would say people have zero attention span. So the title of the episode would be probably more important than the actual description. Yeah. And then from a copywriter's brain, would you focus more on the SEO of the title or the catchy title that grabs someone's attention and pulls them in? I'm not an SEO expert, so I can't speak to that. There are lots of people who are. I

I would say using any kind of hook in your title, and this applies to like subject lines in your emails too, I feel like that's what would do the biggest job.

You know, when you use words like, you know, five tips to blah, blah, blah, blah. How to leave some sort of like, was that really clear? Yeah, I have, you know, there's a bunch of different ways you can use hooks. Talking about hooks is a whole other conversation. But they do play a big role when it comes to like your content. Right? Yeah.

You know, and I can look at like my like coming back to subject lines again, like I can look at the ones where my subject lines are like really funny or really good. Like the open rates are like 90 percent because people are like I had something I wrote something about Dawson's Creek and like relating it to content. I think it was like 90 percent open rate and people were writing to me be like, oh, my God, that was such a great email. Oh, my God. I love what you put in a subject line.

So you kind of have to be creative with this kind of stuff. And that's what people and that's kind of like where I'm trying to like revolutionize the whole content thing. Right. I'm like, it can be a creative process. It doesn't have to be this like shitty or that you have to. Yeah. Yes. Like and that's kind of where.

You know, like it's just another creative expression of your business. Like chances are we all started this business because we're creative people and like we weren't satisfied with what we were doing before. And this is just like another creative expression. Like it's legit. Like think about if you're like,

Like you're painting something or you're crafting or you're breaking bread or whatever. Like, I don't know, whatever you think is like, I don't know, whatever you do that's creative at home. I don't know, whatever it is. Put me, put makeup on, right? Like whatever it is that you find creative, this is just another way to be creative. Love that. That's where people get stuck.

All right. So how can people work with you, find you? And let's re-remind them. You said that there was a freebie on your website. What was that? And, you know, let's do all the things to put you back in their world.

So you can find me on Instagram, lindsaysmithcreative. My website is the same, lindsaysmithcreative.ca. I have two things that I offer. So every Tuesday, 12 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, I have like a free content and coffee. It's like a free networking group. We're all a bunch of women that would kind of come together and collaborate and share ideas. Sometimes we have like a content theme. Like earlier today, we were talking about sustainable marketing and what that looks like.

And I also have like a free mini training called Supercharge Your Content in Five Days. So it's basically you just get an email a day for five days. And really when it comes to like giving free stuff away, I really believe in just like giving it all away. I'm not interested in like this teaser mentality. I'm kind of like, here, take all my best tips and go for it. Because I kind of feel like it doesn't replace working together with somebody. Right. So, yeah.

So I really give away all my best stuff. And I do talk about hooks in that email training if you want to know more. All right. Fantastic. I love that. Thanks so much for being on the pod today and pouring into my community because I know that they all got so much value out of it. And if I'm, you know, be so bold, I'm going to go ahead and just manifest out there that I will be pulling you in to do a masterclass on hooks. We can even call it hook, line and sinker. Oh,

Oh my God, stop it. Yes, stop. Yeah, okay. So that's how I podcast her network. And as always, guys, build your business big, put it on mic on it, and I'll see you same time, same place next week.

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