Haliburton’s Brilliant Game 4, the Reeling Knicks, and OKC’s All Grown Up With Zach Lowe
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It's the Bill Simmons podcast. We have a ton of basketball coming up next with Zach Lowe. We're going to talk about Knicks Pacers game four. The Tyrese Halliburton is a superstar game, or at least a really good star. I wanted to use this opportunity at the top to talk to the Boston Red Sox owners. They won the title in 2018. They won the World Series, the fourth World Series of this century for my baseball team. And then two years later, they traded Mookie Betts

in the most cowardly way. I don't remember if COVID had started yet or it was about to start or whatever, but all of a sudden he's out. They got five cents on the dollar for him. Ironically, the last guy on the team available from that trade was Connor Wong, who was hitting 149 and came up with the bases loaded in the Memorial Day game. And if he made it out, they lost the game. And of course he made it out because he was 0 for 18 in runner scoring position. I've been watching a lot of Red Sox this year.

Uh, I boycotted the team pretty much for the last couple of years. Cause I was so upset about the Mookie Betts trade. It was basically my version of Luca and Dallas and everything that happened there. It was such an indefensible, terrible trade. And then he goes to the Dodgers and he's awesome for them. And, uh, it really made me mad. And I just decided, uh, I, I just need to take a break from the Red Sox. And this year I got back into it because Christian Campbell came up, uh,

Marcella Meyer was about to come up and Roman Anthony, who's the best prospect in baseball. And this Red Sox team, which I think they're over under in Fando is 86 and a half. My friend Kevin Hench went on Brian Barrett's Off the Pike podcast Monday and came in in the 17 minute mark. And it was right after he had another one run loss. And I think they've had 30.

And Hench's response to the first question was almost 10 minutes long. It was one of the most incredible podcasting moments I've heard on the ringer. He's getting madder and madder as it's going, which is exactly how I felt. Everybody who likes the Red Sox feel this year, they have this situation where they won't call up Roman Anthony, the best prospect in baseball. And they weren't calling up Marcelo Meyer either. But then Alex Bregman, who was the best hitter on the team, he gets hurt. So they,

They won't call up Anthony because there's some weird service time thing where if he wins rookie of the year or finishes second, he gets to lose a year of his service time, which makes it a year closer to him getting a giant free agent deal. And all of this would be fine.

If we were the fucking Pittsburgh Pirates or if we were whatever the athletics are called, I think they're just called the athletics or we were whatever other small market team. This team's in Boston. It's an absolute money machine. Who the fuck cares whether Roman Anthony is going to become a free agent year early? Meanwhile, he's had two homers just in the last three games and the Worcester

baseball, their Twitter feed, they just shoot out these Roman Anthony homers where it's 115 miles an hour off the bat. So they lose another one run game today because they won't call him up and they've thrown away this season. But I'm actually kind of attached to a lot of the guys in the team and I want to boycott them again. But now I really like watching Marcelo. Hopefully Campbell will get his act together and I'm waiting for them to call Roman Anthony and they won't because they're trying to save money. What are you trying to save money for? What are you guys doing?

Anyway, that's my Red Sox rant. I don't understand how we won four World Series and I'm the angriest I've been at the owners since I was in college. But this is just unbelievably indefensible.

This would be like the Spurs not calling Wemba Yama up from G League. Not that he's going to be the Wemba Yama of baseball, but you get my idea. When somebody's ready to be one of the best players on your team already, just bring them up. What's the point of professional sports? Anyway, it's driving me crazy. I just wanted to mention that. Okay, we are going to talk about a bunch of basketball with Zach Lowe in one second. We're also presented...

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on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel or as a video podcast. But we did it live with Zach Lowe right after Pacers, Knicks. You're about to listen to it. We're going to take a break. We're going to bring in Pearl Jam and we're going to get going right now. You're listening and watching the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel, our friends, America's number one sportsbook. And they've made it easier than ever to get in on the action during an NBA playoff game, even after tip-off. Just look for the live SGP tab.

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Recording live. Zach Lowe is here. It's the Bill Simmons podcast. Just watch the Pacers go up three games to one. Zach Lowe. I cannot believe how good Albert was in the game today. I can't believe how many missed opportunities the Knicks had.

And it feels like they have missed their window, but we should start with the Pacers because that game had a ton of fouls, a ton of turnovers. It got really ugly. They went up 15 with like nine minutes left, which is usually when the Knicks get going. And then it felt like the Knicks were coming back. They could never pull it off. Do you believe in this Pacers team? Yeah. I mean, how could you not? Um,

I still want to live in the alternate universe where game one doesn't fall into like a wormhole that the Knicks just blow in a catastrophic fashion. I'd like to see how it plays out, but how can you not? They, they,

play a style that just wears people down. They're very hard to play against. They know exactly who they are. And, you know, I heard you and Ryan talking about the Pacers, their place in the East and Ryan saying, you know, I'll always bet on a team with a top 10 player in Indiana doesn't have a top 10 player.

They might have a top 10 player. I mean, like Tyrese Halliburton is this good. I mean, this was, this was his masterpiece tonight. I mean, he's had other great games, not with stakes like this, not playing a style that the Knicks kind of, the Knicks kind of coaxed him to play the way they want him to play for a lot of this game, which is dribble a lot in the pick and roll penetrate a lot, but essentially play like,

Chris Paul plays, but faster, you know, get guys on your hip, force you to dribble into the mid range. The stuff to Halliburton, if he had his druthers would not do. I'll bet you. I'm very interested to see if you track this game, if it's his season high for just dribbles past half court in a game and put up what he put up tonight with no turnovers and a million assists and making shots of every variety, an absolute masterpiece and.

Just between Halliburton and the pace they played at in the first half where they just are flying after every make. And you look at the first action on these possessions after makes is like 21 on the shot clock. There's a handoff for a screen or something. It's just really hard to play against. Halliburton, 32-12.

and 15 with zero turnovers. And I'm with you. When Ryan and I talked about it on Sunday, I did not think he was a top 10 player. I think he needed to add a little to the resume. But this is the kind of game where he surged into the discussion. I texted Steve Nash during the game and I asked him, do you feel like this is like the illegitimate son of the seven seconds or less sons?

And he, he said, absolutely. And it was like, I don't know why I never really thought about it. Maybe other people have made the comparison, but I don't really remember thinking that until I was watching tonight because when game three went off the rails for them, it was because things slowed down and they turned into a normal basketball team, which is always when it goes bad for them. And you figure like the safest bet in this whole series has been the Pacers in the first quarter. Cause they're just boom, boom, boom. They're going, going, going with pace.

I don't even think it's seven seconds or less. It might be six seconds or less. It might even be the five and a half seconds or less pacers because like what you said before, they're getting into, they're either getting two on ones, three on twos, or they're getting into what they want to get into. And there's still like 17, 16 seconds left on the shot clock. I didn't think the Knicks could keep up with the pace. And,

In a weird way, it reminded me of almost like you can, I'm a UFC guy, you're not, or at least for the pay-per-views. Sometimes you watch a UFC fight and you're like, ah, this is, they always talk about in boxing styles, make fights and UFC, the pace of something, what somebody is trying to do when they keep trying to put the other person on their heels and have them going backwards and they kind of screw up their clock for the fight.

it feels like that's what they've done to the Knicks in this series. They've sped them up to the point. The Knicks stats, like Brunson's stats are fine, but he doesn't feel like he's in control like he did in the first two rounds, right? They've tilted it a little bit and it's too chaotic for the Knicks and I don't think they can keep up with it. And that's why you have 10 guys play double digit minutes, even in, it's not a must win playoff game, but you don't want to go surrender home court and go back to New York 2-2 facing that crowd.

Because

if you're going to play at that frenetic pace, you need a real deep team. And that's what the Pacers believe in. It's like Ben Matherin, you've sucked the entire series. You're kind of like stick out on this team, like a sore thumb in terms of the style that you play with. We're going to throw you in the game for 12 minutes because sometimes you stick out like a sore thumb and sometimes you're kind of a curve ball that we might need. And he comes up with 20 points. Yeah. And yeah, it just 20 points that I'm not even positive. I like how he played.

And I'm not even positive he had a good game because he was in the second half was like a chainsaw just kind of rattling around the backyard, just cutting into stuff. And look, I mean, like the Knicks were bad on defense in this game. We should not undersell that. Like the Pacers, I have praised the Pacers to, to,

every nth degree about how their style foists uncertainty and panic on defenses. Defenses make mistakes because just there's so much shit happening so fast. It's like that Halliburton three where Toppin just comes out of nowhere, kind of sprints in the direction of Halliburton to set a screen, doesn't get within five feet of him, sprints toward the rim and

Brunson is on Halliburton. He's like, oh my God, someone's shooting toward the rim. And just all of a sudden everyone walks away from Halliburton and he hits a three. But I thought that Nick's like, I think Josh Hart got back cut five times in the game for baskets on out of bounds plays. The top and three that was the dagger in the game is just a miscommunication. Two guys chase one guy. Their out of bounds defense was bad. Their back cuts were, they got back cut all over the place. Like the Knicks will look at the film of this and be like, look, credit to the Pacers. They're an elite offensive team.

We could have just snuffed out 14 points with just nice standard defense. And like you said, they had it to six, 115-109. The Pacers were becoming a little slow and predictable by their standards. And by the way, the score of the game was 111-96 at one point. And an alarm went off in my brain.

that that was the same exact score it was in the fourth quarter of game one, except it was the Knicks that had won 11-96. And then Anunobi hits a crazy three, and I'm like, I don't know what's going on here, but I'm getting a little frightened by what the basketball gods are doing to us. But in the end, the Pacers got enough done. I usually don't tweet during games, but I did tweet when it was... It was between 8 and 11 for, it felt like, an hour. And I tweeted...

The Knicks just need to fall behind by 15 so they can get comfortable. And then it was 111-96. Then it was that. It was 113-100. And it felt like the Pacers hadn't done anything for five minutes. And they were just letting the Knicks hang around, hang around, hang around, which is what the Knicks love. But I do feel like a couple things have changed with the Knicks from where they were in the first two series.

It feels like he gave up on McBride, which I don't really fully understand. Cause I actually like, especially in a chaotic game, like the one today, I actually like McBride in those games, but down the stretch, he was playing right over McBride Robinson, just the first three quarters. I think it was minus 21, something like that. And that lineup wasn't working. They kind of changed. It's hard for me to believe after like a couple of games, they're like, Oh, our five guys together doesn't work anymore. We got to bring hard off the bench. That felt really panicky to me.

But I think it spoke to the fact that all through the playoffs, this team over and over again has been down 10, 12, 14, 8, 15, 17. And at some point you are who you are. We were talking math a bunch last year with the Celtics. And at some point, when you go up 20 a bunch of times over the course of a season, you're probably good. OKC this year, a lot of blowouts, a lot of big leads. You're probably good. The Knicks...

feel like they're kind of punching above their weight when you just look at how hard it is for them to stay competitive in these games. I think you just nailed it. Something that was bugging me. I talked about it with Rob yesterday. The great Rob Mahoney of Prestige TV? Yeah, him. Yeah, he took a break from watching whatever, I don't know what Prestige shows are on right now. Oh, I like that show. Great show. We talked about it in sort of

just focusing on Towns and Cat as this enigma who carries the Knicks across the finish line in game three with a masterpiece fourth quarter where he's playing center the entire fourth quarter. Mitchell Robinson has benched the entire fourth quarter because the Knicks need points and they need to go five out on offense. And all of a sudden, it just feels like the Knicks

And much like the Timberwolves with Cat, kind of don't know who they are as a team anymore. Like, do we need to play big? Oh, wait, that's not working so well. Why did we start playing big in the first place? Was it just because of Mitchell Robinson's insane offensive rebounding? Or are there other reasons? You know what? That's not working. Like, we need Cat. We need Cat to beat Miles Turner off the dribble in a five-out offense. And Cat was gritty and tough doing that again tonight.

And it just then then they play these lineups like, you know, Shamit and Wright are suddenly in the rotation. All of a sudden they're playing this lineup that has no Brunson, no McBride, no Bridges, obviously no campaign like none of the point guards or in Bridges case, like, you know, sometimes if Brunson's on the bench point forward ish player when.

I don't know where Brooklyn McHale bridges even is anymore. But when that player affects similarly emerges, none of those guys are on the floor. And it's like, boy, they just, I guess credit to Pacers. Like they've, they've rocked the Knicks into the ropes and the Knicks are like, I'm not really sure what the best version of ourselves is. And a lot of that is just towns is a strange player where offensively he's best as a five.

defensively, those lineups just don't hold up unless you have the perfect ecosystem around him. And then you put him at the four and sometimes like, well, where is he at the four? Like, you know, it's Brunson, Mitchell Robinson, pick and rolls towns is over there. So it just, it, I think you nailed it by saying the Knicks suddenly feel a little uncertain about who they are and how they want to play.

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There's two separate Knicks conversations right now and they're running parallel to each other. One is, this is an incredible missed opportunity for them if they can't get out of the series. When you think about just going back

Embiid and Paul George in Philly, that falls apart. It didn't even, it didn't, you can't fall apart if it never was. It's like, it's like, I read some, I read some headline last week about how the Sixers don't want to break up their duo, their star duo, Paul George and Joel Embiid. I'm like, duo? I'm almost as much of a duo with Paul George as Joel Embiid and Paul George is. Just that Christmas game, the highlights from the Christmas game over and over again. Look at what we had that,

Two hours. 18 games. So Philly never happens. Let's go there. Philly just never happens. Butler blows up Miami. Dame ruptures his Achilles. Boston chokes the first two games away. And then Tatum gets hurt for a year in game four. And then Indy knocks out a 64-win team that had home court advantage throughout the playoffs. So you stack all this stuff together.

And it's like a, it's a borderline miracle. If you're the Knicks, like not only were you able to keep your five guys healthy, finally for the playoffs, right? That was the big fear is like, we're going to have towns in April and May. We're going to have in an OB in April and May or say all the miles we're putting on Brunson and bridges and heart. Are they, all of them are healthy, perfect situation.

And they're down 3-1 to the Pacers. And by the way, it's never going to get better for our situation than it is for them right now. I don't think. I think this is the moment. So that's one conversation. Are we... Like, one of those situations going haywire in the East is not a...

a thing that will also be haywire and or worse next season. The biggest competitive advantage in all of professional sports probably is being in the Eastern Conference in the NBA. Boston is gone for a year. Miami is gone.

We'll see. Maybe they get the ramp. Maybe they do something that makes them interesting. Whatever, right? Milwaukee? Okay. I mean, over? Philly? I mean, I'm at all believe Joel Embiid plays 50 games again in a season when I see it with the Sixers. And so I don't like... It's...

it is a missed opportunity. It's especially a missed opportunity. You just cannot lose game one the way they did. It's like two losses. You have absolutely no, you have no margin of error left in the series. You have no margin for anything fluky happening. You have no margin for, you know, just anything going wrong in any game for three minutes. And that game is going to come back and haunt them

So what's the second? So I'm not as, I'm not as like, this is a, yeah. This is one of my favorite basketball playoff theories. And the one that I always think of is Spurs-Suns 2008 when Duncan made that crazy. What was it? Like a one-legged three. It goes in a double overtime. The Suns lose. And it was like, these teams are too close. They're not, they should have won game one.

They're not good enough to beat the Spurs five times. You beat them four. Five seems unrealistic. The five-timers club, the five-time theory. Last year, didn't Jalen Brown hit that

three in the corner to send an OT. Wasn't that game one? It's game one of the conference finals in Indiana-Boston. And then it's like, all right, Celtics win that. Pacers have to beat them now five out of seven times. That's not happening. So you have that piece with the Knicks. So you have this missed opportunity where next year, I think Indiana's going to be better next year. They have ways to improve their roster. Other guys are going to be a year older. They have no... They'll resign Turner, I'm sure. He'll get, what, 22, 23 million? Why won't the Knicks be better? Well...

Health standpoint, older, but this leads to the second thing I'm just wondering. Not doing the Windhorst fingers in the air, but just wondering. By the way, don't throw anything at Windhorst ever again, anybody, okay? Don't put hands on Brian Windhorst. Let's not do it. He's fine. He's a national treasure. Is Towns Brunson now a summer convo?

of can these two guys, can you actually win four straight rounds if these are your two guys? When you think about how that Detroit series went, how they fell behind by 14 plus in the first five Boston games, and how Indiana has just flipped it and made it seem like it's just impossible for them to get stops if you're just running the ball and pushing the pace on them. And both guys seem better when the other guy isn't in, although there's also all these great stats when the two of them are out there together with the high screens that they can run.

I just wonder, like, if you're the Knicks with how the league works these days, where you just decide in a year you hate your team, could this be an I hate my team situation? We got to do something? Or is this a, oh, we were right there. If we win game one, we go to the finals. Let's not get, let's not panic. Let's just run it back. I talked about this with JJ on the New York, New York pod today. No bed can be, is, is, no bed can't be unmade in the NBA of 2025.

But if you are in the Knicks front office and you are inclined to think perhaps pessimistically about the Brunson-Katt pairing winning four straight playoff rounds, which you damn well need to have. If your team's this expensive and you're this all in on picks, you need to have a team you believe can win four straight playoff rounds, especially when three of them are going to be in the junior varsity conference.

But if you're passionate with OKC looming next year is probably even better than they are this year. And you weren't going to beat them this year. That's a whole separate conversation about what making the finals from the East even represents anymore and what those finals are going to look like. But that's a whole separate thing. But if you are pessimistic, I mean, you made your bed like you have Jalen Brunson. You're obviously not moving Jalen Brunson. He's an icon. He saved the franchise. Everything starts with him.

Karl-Anthony Towns makes a gazillion dollars for several more seasons, is sneakily extension eligible this summer, and will probably want two more years, essentially. Is that true? Yeah. I think I blocked that out of my mind. No, I don't think anyone realizes it. I'm 99% sure if I'm reading everything correctly, he's extension eligible. And...

You know, this was this fanciful world. You know, they got everyone thinks they got Giannis or they got Kat to trade Kat for Giannis. And I was always like, what? Like, why is that interesting to me if I'm the Milwaukee Bucks? Like, what is high of just Kat now making sixty five million dollars in five years? That's awesome. We're going to win 32 games in the east and suck. I don't know how you unmake that bed. And I think you but but again, creative people find creative solutions and

How would you unmake the bed? What are you doing if you are dubious to this? To me, I would lean more to, and I think they would lean more to,

We use the remaining pick equity we have. We sign and trade a Chua and a pick. We do something to get one more trustworthy guy. We have these young guys that Tibbs is going to have to trust like Kolek and Dadier and guys like that in the regular season next year. One of those guys has to be able to play 10 minutes in a playoff game like this.

and go back at it, knowing again, we have the biggest competitive advantage in sports. I don't know what the out is other than that. Where are you trading towns? I, you know, as you know, I might've been on the trade machine looking around. I can't wait to hear. I'm sure there's like a, my big problem, not problem, but my big contract for your big contract that maybe there's a fit thing that is unlocked for both of us, but I don't know who that is.

Bridges is in his last year next year and has a big extension coming, correct? He does. And you would suspect that, you know, with Brunson taking less and all of this machinations that, you know, that the parameters of that have probably been broached. I would imagine. I, uh, I don't know is I, some of the stuff Shams puts out there. I'm a, I'm like, okay. Like, like the Yana stuff, he's open-minded. Like, it's like, that's not really a report. The stuff he had today is,

about the Spurs are now looking aggressively at June, trying to figure out if they can be good right away is stuff that you and I have both heard separately. This is a thing that's out there and people... I think if you're looking at who's going to be the most interesting team this summer, they might be number one. They have all these picks. They realize...

You know, much like our beloved 2012 OKC when they were trying to extend. They realize like the windows now, like we have Wimby Yama. Who knows if we're going to have him seven foot seven upright with the history of tall guys? Who knows? Let's go for it. They already told us this by trading three picks or two and a half picks for Darren Fox. They already told us what their mindset is going to be. I just wonder, is there instead of Durant, who was in the 2007 draft, you know, and has been around for a long, long time.

Is it make more sense to target somebody like Bridges? And then if you're the Knicks, could you send Bridges for picks and send those picks with Towns for Giannis and basically turn Towns and Bridges into Giannis would be my question. I can't believe we're talking about this when the series is over. I was just thinking like, if you're looking for outs with that five, like if Giannis is really out there and you're the Knicks, you have to kick the tires on it.

I just don't think what you described, even with some of what is remaining of San Antonio's extra draft equity going to Milwaukee, is like the Spurs themselves can beat that offer without anything else. And Houston can certainly beat it. Others can certainly beat it.

I think Milwaukee, part of this is going to have to be finding a way to get some control of their own picks back. And so you're now groping in third and fourth teams. But it's like you're going to have to triangulate it somehow. You mentioned Durant. Like, you know, there was some Nick's Durant noise in leading to the trade deadline. I don't quite know how that would work. I mean, I know what the common sense salary ingredients would be.

I don't know if, if how appetizing that's going to be to either side, but you know, that's a direction too. But if it, if it look again, creative minds make stuff happen. If we were the, by the way, it's team been gutting today, giving his brother credit for creating VP of common sense. I almost tried to fight the TV. It's just, it was a personal attack. I did think to myself, I came up with that term. I wrote, I think I wrote an entire column about it for the ESPN, the magazine once.

Running joke for 20 years. I love Jeff Van Gundy, but he did not come up with that. Sorry, Stan. But anyway, if the Knicks were hiring us as VP of Common Sense, I would say running back game one was a fucking watershed, crazy event.

You can't overreact. You guys are right there. The East is going to be worse. Keep it together. But it's just interesting that we're even talking about possible alternatives for them. But that's how traumatic this series has been. The Pacers had 113 points with nine minutes left in the game. At one point, it seemed like they were going to put a 140 on them. And the irony of Tibbs coaching a team like that, which by the way, that's maybe the other way this goes.

As you think, I don't know if this is the right coach for this team. So I hear the Tibbs stuff all the time. Yeah. Talked about it with JJ today. Not JJ Redick. John Jastrzemski. And I get it. Like, we've all talked about the minutes load in the regular season, which isn't just a minutes load. It's like a lack of cultivating guys that you might need when shit is going wrong in the playoffs. Yeah. He has been...

somewhat justifiably labeled like maybe a floor raiser who is not super creative adjusting in the playoffs.

I think he has somewhat shed part of that label in the last couple of series. I thought game three, he was great. I thought that was one of the better coach games of the playoffs. The Boston series was going their way before Tatum's injury. They baited Boston. They completely scrapped their entire defense in the way they played to bait Boston into playing a style that favored them. And I just, so my question to the Tibbs critics, and I get it. I get the criticisms. I get the stodginess. I get like everyone wants their,

super creative offensive guru to come in and spice things up like who's the guy because you have sucked for the better part of 20 to 25 years and you don't suck now you're in there are four teams playing basketball in the nba the knicks are one of them they win a lot of games like they have a good coaching staff around tibs uh like some creative thinkers on that staff like are are

So, okay, it's very easy to be like, well, the coach thinks he's not playing DeLon Wright. He's not playing Landry Schamm, but we're not running the field. We don't cut like the calves cut and we're not flying around. Okay, like who's the coach? You want to bring, you want to take the leftovers from the Phoenix list of 9,000 assistant coaches who have never had a head coaching job? I was excited for a second.

yeah just a phoenix grab bag like take the whole fired phoenix coaching staffs over the last five years and craft a coaching staff out of those guys like who's your guy who do you want you don't have an answer well that's an important part of the question yeah i don't i mean i have nick's friends who are like mike malone won a title two years ago he's available be huge for us like i'm not sure if

I'm not sure he's solving all your issues. Is he that different? I don't know. We've never seen him coach without Jokic. I guess we had some brief Sacramento stuff that I barely remember, but he had Jokic. He didn't deserve to be fired in Sacramento. It was a catastrophic mistake. Michael Malone is a good coach. I just like, is that changing the direction of your team? Do you want to do at some point, maybe over the summer, do...

top 30 favorite Sacramento mistakes of the century and we just do a draft? How? I mean, first of all, the list, I think we'd have to go longer than 30. It'd be one of those things where you text me at like,

2.30 in the morning your time and you're like I've spent four days researching this I can't believe how big the google doc is this is great I can't narrow it down wasn't it Grantland that did the video inside the draft room yeah everyone what did they what did they they all called him on speakerphone and Vivek made them be like one two three yay Nick or something like that and you could see everyone being like oh my god go Nick yeah oh god

Yeah, I was surprised they let us even run that. But wait, why did I bring up Sacramento? There was a good reason for it. Oh, yeah, Mike Malone. Yeah, I would assume Tibbs comes back. It's no shame in being one of the four coaches left in the playoffs, but they need to figure out. My guess would be if they kept Tibbs, maybe Mitchell Robinson becomes the fall guy because so many teams need a center. And you talk yourself into Towns as their center.

We need to get like a Siakam-y type forward who can play defense. Obviously not Siakam because he's one of the best. Yeah, those are easy to find. Just get an all-NBA level player. A 6'9 guy who can shoot and, you know,

Tyler, let me add up collect salary plus, you know, what can I get up to to get an all NBA power forward who can play defense? This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Summer is almost here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. What do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well-groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken Parmesan delivered. I love chicken Parmesan. A cabana, that's a no, but a banana, that's a yes.

A nice tan? Sorry, nope. But a box fan? Happily, yes. A day of sunshine? No. A box of fine wines? Yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hey, Zach, we've worked with FanDuel on a new betting concept for the NBA playoffs, and it's called Tail or Fade, where I do a prop.

Player prop. You're not a big gambling guy, but player prop. And I lay it out and people can either, they can back me, which is called tail or fade me, which is go against me. So I'm two and two so far in the playoffs. I lost like this week on town towns. I'm going to pick a player prop for Thursday's game five.

Nick's Pacers. What's funny, I would have gone over on every Halliburton prop and I can't, we got to talk about Halliburton again in a second. We will. But if you've been wanting to fade my picks, I don't know why you'd want to do that. But if you do, FanDuel will give you that opportunity by offering a 50% profit boost on either the over or the under on my pick. Check out FanDuel Sportsbook on Thursday to see what bet I'm boosting. Then you can choose to apply a 50% profit boost to my pick or apply the 50% to the other side and with some smack talk. You could fade me

And just trash talk me on whatever social media forum you want to do. I'll be ready for it. Anyway, check it out. Fando Sportsbook. Okay, let's move to the Knicks because we spent, or the Pacers, because we spent too much time talking about the Knicks. So I was looking at Nash's playoff stats from 05, 06, 07. 46 games on the seven seconds or less Suns.

And he averaged 21 points, 11 assists, four rebounds, and was a 50, 40, 90 guy for that entire stretch, three years. Hal Burton, 29 games. He's basically very close to 20 and 10 now. Five rebounds and not quite as good on the 50, 40, 90, but he's going to be 48, 38, 71. Um,

He's also younger than when Nash was on the Suns, right? Are we still in the Sacramento Kings mistake segments or are we done to talk about the Kings? No, we're going full Halbert. We can circle back to the Kings. But the question, we talked about it on Sunday and then again, you know, after that game today, he's not one of the six best players in the league, right? That's Jokic, SGA, Giannis, and Luka. And I honestly would put Wemby in there for next year. I just think he's going to be

one of the guys. And then there's this next group of, in no particular order, Curry, Mitchell, Halbert, and Brunson, and Cade Cunningham, where we could argue about all those guys. And then there's an Anthony Davis, Towns, Mobley, Jalen Williams, and that's probably the top 15. But Halbert was not swimming in that Cade Cunningham, Brunson, Mitchell, Curry pool totally. Even though he made All-NBA, but he made it because there was some... I mean, he was swimming ahead of Cade Cunningham. He was popping out of the hot tub...

And then going into the pool a little bit, but then coming back. I don't know. I just feel like that overrated thing came out, right? And that was stupid. But I do feel like that was the perception of some people. They didn't see him as good as how he actually was. And now that's over, right? The overrated thing is done and he's in that group somewhere. So how high is he for you when you're comparing him to 37-year-old Steph, Mitchell, who's in his prime, Cade, who's not in his prime yet, Brunson, who's absolutely in his prime?

He's with those guys now, indisputably. Yeah. But out of all of those guys, and Curry's the only one, but now Curry's 37, you can actually create an entire team built around his style of play where he might actually elevate everybody on his team. Not might actually. He elevates everybody on his team. He...

The Pacers have done a very good job of finding players who can play his style and are willing to play his style. But this is one of those magical basketball things where one player has imbued an entire team with his style. Everybody wants to move and pass and cut faster, harder, more often because everybody

The guy who is the fulcrum of everything wants, all he wants to do is get off the ball and run and fast break and, and like make you get a highlight. That's all he wants to do. Heads up. Always looking. Oh, you, oh, you split out after that miss three. I'm going to find you. Every shot, every shot, every miss at the rim tonight.

Was a fast break the other way. Didn't matter who missed at the rim. Didn't matter if they fell out of bounds. Didn't matter if the floor was unbalanced or not. Every single miss at the rim by the Knicks was a Pacers fast break the other way. I didn't vote for a Vrall NBA because I thought the first two months, I thought he was a mess. And he's talked about it since that he was a mess.

And that he was actually going through some stuff and decided to stop reading social media and all these replies. There's been a couple of good pieces about that. By the way, step one to living a healthy life. Just don't read social media ever for any person of any way of just any ilk. It doesn't, you don't even have to have any followers. Just don't, don't like be looking at YouTube shorts for two hours a day. It's the, your brain is getting dumber by the second. We're live here on YouTube. Thanks for that. Okay.

I'm concerned about my kid and her generation. That's all. Listen, I think about it constantly. I picked Indiana to beat Milwaukee. Me too.

I bet on them to beat Cleveland in six. I wasn't positive they were going to beat Cleveland, but I thought it was a 50-50 series. And I thought this was a 50-50 series. But I actually have a bunch of Pacers money that I thought about hedging tonight and decided not to because I thought Hal Burton blew that game down the stretch, as many people have talked about, because he stopped being...

you know, he's doing these crazy kickouts and it's like, you can get to the rim on these guys. Just finish the play. You can contort your body. You're going to get layups. You're going to pick up fouls. Just keep, keep going. And he clearly thought the same thing because he came out today and was like, I am attacking. I'm going, going, going. And when I get into the paint, I'm not just going to be looking to kick. I'm going to be trying to bounce off people, finish,

He's one of those guys that I find myself when I watch and Tatum was like this for a long time too. And until he got hurt, um, where you're just watching him go to the rim, just go to the rim, just go to the rim, go, go to the rim, go, don't settle, go, go, go. Uh, this was the best blend of all his skills tonight. It was really like his magnum opus. And even when he's dribbling for most of a possession, uh,

Like they ran the same play seemingly 25 times in the game, including a bunch of times in the fourth quarter where I think the Knicks actually, they got too predictable and they had to snap out of it. But it was a staggered screen with Neesmith was the first screener. Turner was the second screener because Neesmith has Brunson. Turner has cat. And, um,

Like, even when he dribbles that entire path, he takes both screens, he turns the corner, and he ends up shooting a floater, a layup, a setback too. Yeah. There's not any, like, wasted time. Even though he's, quote, pounding the ball, he's not bringing it back out for the most part and just dancing with it. It's like forward to diagonal momentum the whole time. Now, there are a couple times he brought Mitchell Robertson out on the switch. He's like, I'm going to dance with you a little bit and make a three. But there's just no...

And it's not better or worse. Like the Celtics won a championship with Tatum and Brown basically being like, I'm going to bully you for 10 seconds to get to the rim. It's just better for the Pacers and better for Halliburton to play the way that he does and play at the speed that he does. I agree with you. I thought it was the best mix of

of, uh, of him ever. And by the way, the biggest shot of the game was when they snapped out of being predictable, ran a different play. And it was a Halliburton Nembhardt pick and roll, which is like, okay, we're going to run that now. Cause Brunson's on Nembhardt and Halliburton turned the corner. I actually Nembhardt slipped the screen and Siakam hit the corner three to put them up one 18, one on eyes, the biggest shot of the game. And it was an important moment because the Knicks have seen the same play eight or nine times in a row, which is

Even if you're as dynamic as the Pacers, you get in a rhythm defending it. And the Pacers finally realized, like, we got to do something a little different. And then that was not quite the game, but it was the biggest shot of the game. Well, what's interesting about where they are, it's hard to believe they're going to make the finals, but they've also, you know, they're beating a red hot Knicks team. They thumped Cleveland.

thumped to make some excuse for Garland wasn't healthy and mobile missed the game, but I'm sorry. Like everybody's hurt in the playoffs. They soundly beat them and broke them by game five and, uh, did a really nice job against Milwaukee too. And I think Milwaukee was a team that was excited to play Cleveland. I think a lot of teams were excited to play. Cleveland was one of the, uh, under underlying lessons of, as we headed in there, but with Hal Burton, um,

I think it's just easy to build around him. And that was why I made the case that I think that's the team I would want to be if I was in the East. Because even I look at the pieces now,

Look, Mathurin had 20 points. I didn't, I just, I'm not a fan. I don't love how he plays. I thought he was important for this game today just because he was like going 110 miles an hour and he helped with the pace. But I feel like that top end spot and the Mathurin spot are the two spots that you can upgrade. And I was looking at Nash's son's teams in 05, 06, 07, and they're different in a lot of respects. I do think Marion and Siakam have a lot of similarities.

um, as a sidekick, but they need like a Tim Thomasy before he went to the Clippers and stopped caring about basketball, like a, a six foot eight shooter, um, who can kind of be malleable on defense. And it's just a little bigger than Matherin. Um, I think would be the number one thing I would draft for them. Somebody who could come in and give them, um,

Um, just like a, a long athletic lineup without a center basically. Well, the interesting conversation about the Pacers and I, it's one they've had internally too, since they got Siakam was, um, and it dovetails with Rosillo saying, you know what, like where, if you had to rank Halliburton and Siakam among the top 30 players in the league, where would they rank? And is that high enough for a big two, um, kind of construction? Yeah.

It's the debate of like we still have chips to cash in. We have like we have like we have control of most of our picks now. Do we need a third all star level talent in order to really, truly be a contender? And I thought obviously not. They're five months away from the title. I think it's a conversation that they've had for two years. And I think they've debated it internally. It's been debated externally.

Last year, it was like

you know, once you get past Halliburton and Siakam, they're like 7, 8, 9, or basically the same as 3, 4, 5. And is that a good thing or is that a bad thing? Do they need a little bit more of like an A-level talent? And it's like, maybe they're about to make the finals. Maybe this is some sort of magic elixir of a team and it works just fine. Well, the biggest thing that I think they solved, other than getting Halliburton right, because he just didn't seem like the same guy those first two months, but

I felt like it's a little like what we were talking about with Townsend Brunson before. I didn't love the fit with Siakam with them 100% because I thought... I didn't feel like he wanted to go as fast as they wanted to go. And it seems to me... Granted, I'm not banging out 82 Pacer games a year, but I do watch a lot of them and I've always been afraid of them. It seems to me he's committed to the style now and that he's playing...

way more breakneck than I think he used to. I thought he was too deliberate with them last year. He's getting eight free points a game by just being faster than every other big man on the floor. And when they need him to be deliberate, he's picking his spots. It's like, all right, I have Mikael Bridges on me on a switch. Like I can bully this guy. I have Josh Hart. Like I'm way taller than him. I have a guard. Like I'll be deliberate now. And even me being deliberate is going to be

within a couple dribbles getting to the shot that I want to take from the place I want to take it. Can we do two more Pacers? I got two more Pacers stakes to get off. I have a couple too, so go. Let's hear it. I just very quickly, we're talking about Thibodeau. Rick Carlisle is going to elevate himself into some pretty elite territory historically with this run. And the biggest compliment I can give him is, you know, I rarely, if ever,

get to the end of a Pacers game or a Pacers series and be like, man, that lever wasn't pulled. He should have done that. That lever. Like I just, I get to the end. I'm like, I can't really think of anything else I would have done. Like he's just got, he's just got his finger on every button. So that's my first, that's my first space. Like, I don't, I don't know where you, he's pretty high all time wins. He's got a championship. He only has one, but like, he's going to be in some pretty lofty coach conversations. I heard, I can't remember who said this. Maybe it was Doc Rivers. Yeah.

Cause he got interviewed for, there was some Rick Carlisle piece I read in like USA Today. I'm sorry, I can't remember the writer. And I think it was Doc Rivers who said, what's great about Rick is whatever roster he has, that's the team he'll create around the roster that he has, which that's like football. That's what I always loved about Belichick.

was like, he didn't have like a system. He was like, Oh, we have these guys. So let's do this. And that was just how he figured out whatever they're doing on defense. You think like how different that Dallas Luca Brunson, all ISO team was compared to like how, how this Indiana team plays, how that Oh three Pistons played. And then how that Dallas team played. And especially in 2011,

He just has different styles, which I don't, how many basketball coaches could just be like, all right, I guess we'll do this. I feel like Brad Stevens was kind of wired like that too, but there's not that, not that many who are like, I don't have a system. My system is who's my best player. I'm going to create something around. And he loves Halliburton and he loved Halliburton from the second that they got him from a team that by the way, had Darren Fox and Tyrese Halliburton and now has none of them. Give me what's your, what's your next pacer stick?

what would you, do you remember your feelings on what they should have done? Because there was a, the Knicks were coming hard after Fox in February 22 when they made that Sabonis trade. And they were also Sacramento was also looking at Ben Simmons and there was a Hal Burton possibility there, but it felt like one of those guys was available. And I I've always been like way, way pro Hal Burton even dated back to the draft.

And I would, I would have kept Halliburton, but I thought what they got in the trade was a good trade. It's like, all right, well, that's that they're more interesting now. They had, maybe they had to do something. What would you have done? I was, so I think I was on television when JJ Redick labeled it franchise malpractice to trade Halliburton for Sabonis. Um,

And I thought that was a little harsh because Sabonis is a very good player. But I have been consistent from day one of that trade to when the Kings were the beam team and everything was going great to being like, when everyone would say it's a win-win trade. Wow, what a rare thing. It's a win-win trade. It's not going to be a win-win trade. The Pacers won the trade. The fact that the Sacramento didn't lose it so badly in the short term is cool. It's not a win-win trade. The Indiana won the trade. Okay.

So it's a little like the Kawhi George Hill where it was like short term, really good trade for Indiana. And they had a nice little run. They made conference finals over and over again. And it was clear right away, like long term, this is not going to be a win-win trade. This is going to be like, oh my God, we traded Kawhi Leonard and all sorts. By the way, the other Pacers thing is I've always been, look, I don't mean this facetiously or in a mean way.

a very large part of Paul George's NBA legacy is going to be all the great teams that were created in his wake. It's really nuts. I mean, the Pacers thing is...

They trade Paul George to Oklahoma City for Oladipo and Savonis. And like this, that's their team. They built it. They built this team. If you like, if you follow all the paths from that trade and forget the fact that let me see if I do this right. Oklahoma City traded

Serge Ibaka for Victor Oladipo in the pick that became Sabonis. This goes to the Richard Lewis trade exception in 07. You went even further back. I'm just saying. That turned into Kurt Thomas and two number ones, which then turned into Serge Ibaka. Think about that. Robert Sarver created the finals. If you...

If you just follow the tentacles of what the Pacers got for Paul George. Yeah. It just, it leads to this team. And then of course, Paul, the Paul George trade for the thunder leads to their team that exists right now. No, basically. Well, the other crazy piece of that is that old Depot was one of the 12 best players in the league for a year. Incredible. Yeah. All NBA gets hurt. Yeah.

And usually when that happens, you don't bounce back from that as a franchise and you become a top five lottery team and you go through the whole cycle and they just did it because they smartly, it was another one where they had the same version of Fox and Halliburton with Sabonis and Turner who they could never figure out how to play those guys together. And they kept Turner traded Sabonis and the trade worked out for them. Yeah. The, the, uh,

It all starts with that freaking Richard Lewis. And when Presti did that, that was one of the first times I remember somebody specifically trading away an asset to get the trade exception. I don't think he invented it, but it was still pretty new, right? 2007? Yeah.

There weren't a lot of people doing that. It's almost 20 years ago. And like to your point about not a lot of people doing that. I mean, the price was so exorbitant in modern terms, like to look back at it, they got what? Like it's like all the picks that Sarver threw out in the open to dump money. Well, Steve Kerr's first trade. He comes in and the lockout's coming and Sarver's like, we can't have this payroll. You have to trade Kurt Thomas. And that ends up being the first trade. I had a...

for one of my Indy takes. OKC is the best team in the league. Are we sure the West was better than the East this year? I mean, this year, no. I mean, this year was, well, first of all, it depends how you're conceiving of the conference, right? Like one to seven, I think the West was in an unusual state of flux, although I think the Nuggets come out of all of this looking like, OK, yeah, maybe they're still a pretty goddamn tough out at the very least. Well, think about Celtics won 60 games.

The Knicks team was good enough to go up 3-1 on the Celtics even before Dana got hurt. Indiana. How many West teams do you really love looking back? How many East teams do you really hate looking back? The Chicago Bulls made the play-in tournament. I'm just talking the top, like the best teams in each conference. And we thought, oh my God, the West is such a gauntlet. Look at the East. Can we even find three teams that could make the finals in the East? And then you look back and

We basically had three plus the Clippers in the West, I think. Well, I mean, Steph gets hurt. I think the Warriors would have been heard from in that Minnesota series for sure. Or is that what we wanted to happen, but they actually wouldn't have been heard from?

I mean, I picked Minnesota to win the series regardless, but I think that's a competitive series. And you can find a lot of people around the league who think the Warriors would win it. Clippers Nuggets, you know, like the Clippers crapped the bed in game seven. They did what the Clippers do, but that was a heavyweight fight. End game one. But it was a heavyweight fight for the most part. And the East is like Cleveland, Boston, New York, Indiana, and then pretty good foursome.

Yeah, there are 15 teams in the conference. I'm just saying the top of each. I felt like going into the playoffs, I felt like the West was so much better. And now I don't know if I feel that way. All right. I was just test driving the take. You poured water on it. What was your next indie thing? That's it. I just... This is the... I mean...

3-1-3-1, the odds must be 80% to 90% that we're getting an Indiana-Oklahoma City Finals. League office and the broadcast partners must be doing backflips over this. Conspiracy Bill will be coming in later to talk about that.

Would you go six seconds less, six seconds or less Pacers? Would you go seven? Would you go five and a half? What would be your number? I think we can do a better nickname that leaves the seconds or less lineage with Phoenix. And there's got to be a pun. Their name is the Pacers. There's got to be a pun or a rhyme or something that if we put a full brain trust of people, if we got the common sense czar of sports, whoever that is, whoever created that term to weigh in,

could come up with something unique to the Pacers. I wonder, I'll go into our live and see if the people, oh, it's not clicking for me. Why isn't it clicking for me? Oh, well, I guess that's not going to work. I already besmirched YouTube Shorts. I'm not even going to go into the chat and see. Maybe YouTube shut our thing down when you took the shot at them. Yeah, we do need some sort of thing. Here's the other Pacers thing we had to talk about.

We haven't done this on the pod yet and I can't believe it. You did it on your own pod. You admitted me. It hurt my feelings. I got over it. Neesmith Island. There were two people on it. Not kind of Neesmith family. I'll never understand why he didn't play over Romeo Lankford ever at any point in my life. It was weird when it was going on. I felt weird complaining about it because it was Neesmith was such a seemingly obscure guy in that team.

Um, they never figured out how to use them. And when they put them in the Bragdon deal, I was totally fine with it. Cause it just was clear. Boston had just quit on him for as an asset for whatever reason. Um, all the stuff he's doing, it's just so funny. We're sitting there with two, I don't even say we have cottages on new Smith Island. Like they, they started out as like,

just like, like a, like a shed, two sheds. And now we're, now we have multimillion dollar mansions on New Smith Island and everyone wants to live there. And guess what? We've been here the whole time. Well, I've told the story about meeting him and it is agent and all of that, but sorry, I just clicked on the box score and a video came up. Cause I want to see how many points Aaron Neesmith had tonight with a sprained ankle and looked awesome defending Brunson minus plus or minus one or two plays. Uh,

Yeah, I mean, you know. He was plus 20 tonight in 32 minutes. And every time he came out of the game, the Knicks would immediately start looking better because the stuff he was doing on Brunson, and they did a good job of talking about it in the broadcast about how he fights over picks, how good he is at that, like what a specifically unique skill that is. I love Stan. He can't stop. He's more excited about Neesmith fighting over picks than regular people are about.

I'll just leave that there. He's very excited about it. But it's not, that's not the only thing he's doing though, because this is why I love the Pacers matchup. They're, they're with Brunson 94 feet. They're, they're scoring baskets and they're like, where's Brunson? Let's get in his Jersey. And Nisman has been the biggest piece of that. He's playing 32 minutes, but he's like sprinting.

He's like running a marathon during these games. And I think he's been just a revelation for them. When I do the best contracts, I don't even know if I'll, maybe I'll do a best contracts draft this summer. Him at 11 million has to be way up there. Hey, look, like Kevin Pritchard, Chad Buchanan, the entire front office, like they've killed it. I mean, just like the moves on the fringes, like Oladipo to Levert,

to, I believe they get the picks that become Nemhard and Shepard and including other stuff in the Levert trade. I mean, they've just nailed, like, this is how he's not even playing. And I still like him. I don't know if you want to join me. I still have, I have some property on Walker Island. I thought he would play in this series. Me too. Like, did you, I want you to be honest. I've already copped this. Did you remember that Tony Bradley was on the Pacers before Rick Carlisle brought him into game two? Did I know he was in the league? Yeah.

Did you see they put up his career stats and they said he's had two season DNPs? Wow. Yeah. I was amazed he made the second free throw. But yeah, I mean, Carlisle's just throwing dudes out there and they all seem like they're ready to play. That Ben Shepard, who's either 35 years old or 20, I don't know what his age is.

It's the mustache. He's just, he's all in on the mustache. He can come in and seem confident. The Nembhard pick was great. That was 31. He's been really bad the last couple of games too, and they survived it. Thought offensively, it seems like he's lost his confidence. Even when he's bad, do you ever feel...

worried in any way that Andrew Nembhard is on the floor. I'm like the Pacers behalf. I just feel like he's doing something helpful all the time. And he turns into an incredible shooter in the playoffs and he's not been an incredible shooter in the regular season. He's like the anti all the shooters that suddenly aren't shooters anymore in the playoffs. I don't want to name names. Well, the thing about him is

He doesn't turn the ball over, which is wonderful. And neither does Halbert. And when you can play with pace like that and not turn the ball over, it's like an incredible achievement. And whoever has the turnovers on this team is always the other dudes on the team. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. One of the most useful things in my life lately has been my Apple Card. It's great for game nights, vacations, just life in general. And applying was so easy and quick. You can apply, see your credit limit offer, and then start using your card

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Apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone and start using it right away with Apple Pay. Subject to credit approval, Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch. Terms and more at applecard.com. This episode is brought to you by The Home Depot. Whether he's been perfecting the patio all spring or is the groundskeeper of the yard, The Home Depot has fast free delivery on gifts to help him do more this Father's Day. Check out cordless power must-haves

like the Ryobi 40-volt expanded string trimmer with battery and charger. Whatever you want, find the perfect gift for your dad in-store and online at thehomedepot.com. How doers get more done, subject to availability. This episode is brought to you by Vioric.

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slash Simmons, and you get 20% off your first purchase with Viori, V-U-O-R-I.com slash Simmons. Enjoy free shipping on all US orders over $75 plus free returns. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. I'm going to give you my 15-point pyramid right now. I was thinking about Halliburton's place. I'm just going to throw this at you. Okay. Start with one. Jokic, still one.

SGA. I saw a lot of SGA is the best player in the league now. SGA is knocking on the door. And we're going to talk about OKC in a second. SGA is definitely like, hey, guys, what's going on over here on the top spot of the pyramid? Hey. Jokic had some beers. He's not getting up to answer the door. No. Door's locked. Him and his brothers, they're watching super bad. It's fine. SGA and Giannis, 2-3. Ant and Luka, 4-5.

By the way, Tatum's not in the pyramid because he's not playing for a year. Yeah, you are very loyal to this format of just if you're out for the year, you're out of the rankings. I'm not ranking you, which I like. If you're not going to play next season, you can't be in there. I have Wemby sixth.

Do you agree or disagree? Because I'm projecting where he's going next year and the fact that he fucking grew an inch. Are you following this? He's 7'7", allegedly. I'm only following it because I heard you talking about it. 7'7", allegedly. And how 7'7 just sounds strange. Can we pay-per-view and give the proceeds to charity where they actually measure Wemby and we find out exactly how tall he is for $19.99? Where did you have Ant for? Feels really high. You had Ant over Luca?

Yeah. Can I find out if Luca is going to be in shape next season?

I like the skinny slash fat photos that go around of players in the offseason when it's like, is it just the clothes they're wearing? Is it just the way they're standing? Like, why are we reading so much into this? Like, you could make me look 20 pounds lighter or 20 pounds heavier very easily. Every photo has like a 15 pound variance, just depending on the photo. I have no idea if he's lost any weight or not. Allegedly, he cares a little bit more. So you'd have Luke over Ant.

Ant made the Western Finals two years in a row. I feel like it's notable. Luka made the finals in the Western Finals in the three-year span. He did. He got traded by the genius Nico Harrison, though. Ant never got traded. I have Wimby sixth. Then I have Curry, Mitchell, Halliburton, and Brunson as my seven through ten. And if Halliburton makes the finals, I'm moving him over Mitchell. Sorry, Mitchell.

Because, sorry, I'm a recency-biased guy. And if you make the finals as when you're clearly the best player in a team and you go through three straight playoff rounds where you beat Giannis, you beat a 64-win Cavalier team, and then you beat this loaded Knicks team, you have to be in the top 10. And then my bottom, my last level is Cade, number 11, Anthony Davis, Towns, Mobley, and Jalen Williams.

who officially won me over after last night. I think he has to be in the top 15. Anybody, does anything make you go, eh?

No, it's just interesting that obviously everyone is well aware that we have this generation of superstars that are aging. And so they're aging out of discussions like this, like LeBron, although you have Curry in here, too. You also just have like and Durant. You didn't mention Durant. And I and I don't I can't quibble with it. Like if you if you just told a random guy on the street, Tyrese Halliburton is better than Kevin Durant. I think I think that would get.

His team went 35-47 last year or whatever it was. I'm sorry. Then you have other guys who are just... Joel Embiid's injured all the time. Jimmy Butler's injured. Jimmy Butler, focused, healthy, happy Jimmy Butler is probably in this conversation, but that guy doesn't exist very often anymore. The Minnesota series, I think, killed that. I think he can get there every once in a while, but I think...

Don't you also believe that? He just didn't seem impactful enough. And I think when you get to 35 and up, I think asking somebody to be good for nine months is really a chore. We don't have a lot of history of it. He fell hard on his tailbone, and I'm not sure he... We all thought not long ago

that both Morant and Zion would like maybe be in this conversation in Morant's case, like definitely be in this conversation. And they're just like not even sniffing it right now. It's just, it's a strange, it's a strange, strange times. Well, so the biggest thing that's changed in the playoffs is how Burton ascending into that top 10. Um, Kawhi is another one. Kawhi healthy, Kawhi top 10 player. So I had my five, my, my five honorable mention guys in no particular order. Um,

Tatum, LeBron, Kawhi, Chet, and Durant, I think is the next group right underneath. And then Booker, you could talk me into, but I think he gets, he, he should get some of the same, uh, same criticism. Um, I have to ask you what East team you would want to be the most next five years. Cause we're still, and I talked about that Sunday. I'm stealing this idea and doing a full on draft on my podcast on Thursday. Oh, one to one to 15. Stay tuned for that. Um,

Okay, let's talk about OKC really quick and what happened last night. So they win 128 to 126. Ant takes shit after the game, which I agreed with Versillo's take on his podcast today that some of the stuff was unacceptable, like being that visibly frustrated and disappearing from being mad about how you're being defended basically and checking out on certain plays.

At the same time, they scored 126 points. And that wasn't why they lost the game. They scored 126 points. It wasn't because Ant didn't score enough. They couldn't get stops. And I think if I'm Minnesota, I'm upset that the best two guys in the other team are guys that play positions that I have awesome defenders at. And they still lit me up for almost 80 points combined. And if I'm OKC...

I'm just like, we fucking... This is it. We climbed Mount Everest with this team. What Jalen Williams did in that game, combined with what Shea... What he always does, but especially at that level. He was just magnificent in that game. But then to get that from Jalen Williams, who I wasn't... Combined with Game 7 of the Nuggets series, too. Right. But I wasn't sure...

I wasn't sure Jalen Williams had it in him yet, a game like that. I didn't know if we were a year away. And I kept thinking of the Pippen parallel with him, with Pippen in the 90 playoffs, which ended with the migraine, which, you know, whatever. But even before that, he wasn't quite ready. And then in 91, he was ready. And I felt after that game...

Jalen Williams has arrived as the number two. This is it. This is his official. Hello, everybody. I'm here. And that's the legacy of that game. Those two guys together, the rest of the league had to be like, oh, fuck. Now what do we do? And Chet feels like he's just scratching the surface of what he can do offensively and is already...

One of the 10 best defensive players in the league and one of the three best rim protectors in the league. That block, that recovery block he had in the fourth quarter was outrageous. That was outrageous. At the rim, he's just, you can't score on him at the rim. And J-Dub, Mahoney nailed this today. And he and I talked about it on the pod. He wrote for the ringer today.

The entire defensive scheme that they've played in this series and in other matchups hinges on Jalen Williams being able to guard guys who are bigger and stronger than he is. Without his ability to contain, shut down, limit Julius Randle,

in this series, if he can't do that, you've got to move Chet somewhere else. Chet can't just be on Jada McDaniels roaming around protecting the rim. The whole concept falls away. Not the whole concept because you can then put Caruso on him, but then you've got to play Caruso more. A lot of how they are constructed on defense falls apart without him and his ability to guard up a position. Yeah, they are...

Look, I mean, it's no secret when they have an above average offensive game, it tends to look quite scary for the president and future of the league because the defense is going to be there pretty much every night. And they got the 21 turnovers, which it seems like in every game when they try, they're going to be around 20 turnovers for the other team. Offensively, Minnesota, all these dudes just playing out of their ass and them being able to match it. Wasn't positive they had it in them.

Well, in all those like DiVincenzo and Alexander Walker going crazy from three, like a lot of that stems from the attention that Ant is drawing. Not all of it. Like it's not it's not all assists and hockey assists, but a lot of it, if you sort of dial it back and look at where it all originates from, a lot of it is just there's like four dudes on Ant or looking at Ant or leaning toward Ant. It's the current gravity thing. Like he's definitely and they're treating him like that this series and his teammates made a bunch of shots.

I don't know. I wasn't monitoring how much shit he took today. Just people in my life were like, what's up with Dan? I was like, I don't know. He definitely disappeared for some spots. I didn't love his body language, but

I also thought they scored 126 points. And a big reason of it was he was pulling OKC's defense toward him all the time. And it was opening all this stuff up for everybody else. He's also 23 years old. This was Tatum in 2022. There's a whole other level when you keep going up arounds. He's still like a young pup when SGA was three years ago. They weren't even a playoff team.

You know, he's, I don't think it's fair to compare him to SGA because I think SGA is just, has more experience and he's just been doing this longer, you know? But I think that's how great Ant is that you can even compare him to that. It's not like I'm making excuses for him, but I just think he's a young player and I'm feeling like, I don't feel like we're getting to where it's going to get to with him because three years from now, or even two years from now, he's going to realize like,

I'm just going to make all the right plays on offense. And then on defense, I'm going to fucking terrorize them. And I'm going to grab, I'm going to grab 13 rebounds and I'm going to shut down Jalen Williams or whoever I'm guarding. And that's how I'm going to affect the game. He can't figure out how to affect the game if he doesn't have the offense yet.

But I believe in him. And a lot of the conversation about Ant and like, well, you know, you just, when you're the best guy, you just got to put your team on your back and get buckets. It's just based on stuff that Michael Jordan did when the rules were completely different and you couldn't play zone defense. You couldn't tilt the floor the way defenses do now. It's really hard to just get to the rim anytime you want. I think the difference, and there was some of this today I saw. I think the interesting difference between Shea and Ant

is how Ant's shot selection has trended in a dangerously hardening direction where it's just all rim, all threes. I'm not shooting any long twos. I'm not confident in the shot. I don't have the post game that I wanted to have yet.

And Shea is obviously an elite mid-range shooter, but all else fails. You can just go one-on-one and jack a 17-footer, and Ant doesn't want that shot anymore. It's partly because if you look at his numbers, he does not shoot them well. And in the playoffs, we've seen it. I'm not comparing him to Harden. No one is going to have Harden's record in big games, and Ant certainly is not. But there is a certain of like, if it's just...

all rim, all three, and you're the number one guy on a team, it's going to be really hard for you in some games. Yeah. Well, Tatum was another one who battled that. Tatum had this nice little mid-range game, nice little foul line jumper, nice little post-up game. And when things would go bad, he would just abandon it. It was either 25 footers or him going to the rim with no in-between. And not my favorite kind of basketball, but I just feel like Ant

his superpower is going to be how can he affect the game when they're doing what he did yesterday? And he doesn't know how to put the pieces together yet. I don't think SGA could have played the game that he played yesterday, two years ago. The sense of play-to-play, moment-to-moment, and especially after Minnesota would hit yet another big shot

Another three from the corner. And he was just so calm the way he does it. That whole team is like fucking Michael Myers team. They're just like walking across the street with the knife. Like, Hey, nobody, they have no emotion at all. They have no personality. They're just like these quiet assassins that come after you. Well, and you think about all the, the teams and has faced in the playoffs at what is usually these 23s, whatever he is, he's very young.

He's already faced the Nicole Jokic Nuggets twice. He's faced the Luka Mavericks. He's faced the Curry Warriors. He's facing this Thunder team. Like he's getting a lot of Lakers, getting a lot of like big time experience against elite, elite, elite A plus teams under his belt. And that's like pretty goddamn hard to like win those for him, for his team to have won as many of those series as they have, I think is like way ahead of schedule for most teams.

I couldn't agree more. The reason I hated the Gobert trade, I hated a bunch of things about it, but the biggest reason I hated it was because the trade was made like you were on some schedule with Ant, like he was 25 when he was like 20 when they made the trade. It was a bet on him as much as it was on Gobert. And they were right.

He was actually ready to become the top seven or eight guy at a really precocious age. But now we're at this other level where now you're being treated differently game to game. I'm looking at how many playoff games he's played already. Yeah, 30 playoff games the last two years, 41 total. And he turns 24 in August.

We're doing fine with Ant. Yeah. I can't accept any, this whole basketball talk culture we have now where it's like, so-and-so's got to step up. I asked so-and-so to step up and he stepped up. Now this guy needs to step up. Well, he didn't step up yet. He's got to step up. It's like, it's basketball. You go up and down. You're going to have good games and bad games. I think Ant learned from the game yesterday. I'm hoping.

Just like Halliburton learned from game three. He learned from game three and was awesome in game four. Is anyone in Minnesota, is anyone in Minnesota echoing any of this anxiety about Anthony Edwards? Like another team that's had nothing good happen to them for 20 years has been in the conference finals twice in a row. Like that seems pretty awesome. Seems like it's going great. Your final four team two years in a row. You do have this Nas Reed thing though. Yeah, they got some questions. You know, everyone's got some questions. Well, there's also some questions with

what's the spending going to be? Yeah, that's what I mean. Everyone's got in the apron era. Everyone's got, everyone's going to face these questions. Did you see, there's this thing somebody forwarded me today and I couldn't believe it. And apparently it's true. Um, the tech, there was a tax thing about everybody who's paid the tax.

I saw a graphic floating around. Yeah. There's been some good graphics lately. This one was all the teams that have paid the tax. It was on a Twitter account called NBA University. That thing's really good. Shout out to those guys. NBA, lowercase, underlying thingy, university. I think it's called an underscore. Underscore. That's also what the kids call it. Golden State has paid $746 million in luxury tax since 2012, which is...

340 million more than our next team, the Los Angeles Clippers. But what surprised me is OKC has paid the tax five times since 2012. And I was like, that doesn't seem, that has to be a mistake. And I looked it up and, uh, after Durant left, they paid the tax big time in the 18 and 19 seasons when, uh,

with post Westbrook when the Paul George came in. So they did spend, cause I was thinking big picture. Cause I, we agree they're going to win the title, right? Barring an injury. I can't see anybody touching this team. Yeah. As soon as, as soon as the Celtics went away, they were the odds on favorite to, to win the title. And they,

And they took a wooden stake and rammed it into Jokic's heart. After two weeks, they finally were able to get it in there. But then the next topic is going to be, what does this team look like going forward? And that's one of the questions will be, well, are they going to pay the tax? They do have a history of paying it sometimes. So I still think this team, the fact that Jalen Williams and Chet are in the same draft class,

That's a yikes. That's a tough beat. I think they're going to pay the tax. I think there will be, you know, you get once you get into apron stuff like every team, they will be cautious. But I like they're going to have to make decisions like every team is going to have to make these decisions. Is there a door and have to go out here? And Hartenstein doesn't, you know, is not on the team in three years. It's like whatever. Like, yeah.

They're going to have to pay the tax. They're going to pay the tax. They're not going to duck the tax. You can't be that team that good and duck the tax. You can't do it. Well, they did it, which is why I'm bringing it up. They did it in 2012 when they had James Harden and Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook and Serge Ibaka on the same team. So same owners. Lessons were learned. Maybe lessons were learned. I would assume Dort would be the one trade piece that I think they could actually get stuff for. And then your guy is coming.

Topic. Yeah. So I tweeted that the other day and it wasn't, everyone was like, well, they also have seven first round picks in the next, whatever it is. I'm like, I know, I know all the picks they have. The picks are in my brain all the time. It's the actual human that they drafted in the lottery last year that I sometimes forget is just like floating around, you know, who everybody said would have been top five if he hadn't gotten hurt. And now he's fine. Um, well anyway, that, okay. See, I thought that was, it was weird seeing some people didn't love that game.

I thought it was a weird game, especially people in my life are like, yes, I don't know about that game. I was like, that game was incredible. What are you guys talking about? The free throws is what just is what soured people. And I don't want to do the whole like, what would you change the rule to fouling up three? It's all the stuff in the last minute. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it was a fun. It was a really fun game. You know, the whole game was really fun. So what would you do?

I don't want to have that. I'm too tired to have that discussion now. 12, 12, Oh, we're losing Zach Lowe. Go to the bullpen. Um, I, uh, I just don't think, I think they could just tweak it really easy in the last minute where if you foul somebody that, that isn't in any, like, it's just, what do they do in FIFA? It's like a free throw and you keep the ball. That's it.

Basketball becomes immediately more fun. This is not hard. Did I say FIFA? FIFA soccer. It's 9.07 here. I'm exhausted. You know what? I have a lot of counter arguments. It often doesn't work is one of the fun things about the fouling up three thing is it often comes back to bite you in the ass, which is a fun turnabout. It opens the door that you could actually just lose the game that you had a three-point lead in. Right?

All of a sudden it could be like basically what happened to the Knicks in that Indiana game. How'd you feel about Ben Stower and Shalem? I sit next to each other in Indiana. I love that they're going to the road games. I mean, they were in Detroit in the first round. I love it. If I had infinite wealth and access to private transportation and I had spare time, it's exactly what I would do as an NBA fan.

Well, now that once we sell our places on Neesmith Island, maybe we buy MJ's Jet. Did you see MJ's Air Jordan Jet? It's really nice. Maybe that's what we spend our Neesmith Island profits on. We need a new guy. Who's our new guy? New Island? Yeah, because I feel like we took Neesmith to completion. So now what do we do? I bought a lot in the Strother Straits a couple years ago that I've just been sitting on. Yeah.

He could be one. Who did I tell you? I need to think about that. Next time we do a pod, I think we should each have three guys that become our next island guys. I mean, the Kaminga Keys, there's a lot of people there. There's like a good nightlife. I do not have property on the Kaminga. We don't want everybody there. No, there's a couple of Detroit guys I've had my eye on. I still own some property on JT Thor Island. I don't know if I told you about that one.

That's a penny stock. You're holding that one. Yeah. I'll tell you. That's a good properties. I like that. Bailey Shireman.

I love that. I love that at the end of this podcast, Shireman is coming up. We're going to need him next year. We're going to need a lot of people next year. Did you see Shams talked about the Tatum, how the surgery got big? I'd heard the same thing. I'm just getting hopeful about the Jason Tatum surgery. We're like one report away from like maybe Christmas. Maybe, why not? Technology. I was talking to my dad today and we were just both like,

He's just saying he doesn't know what to do with himself because he had this whole run mapped out for Celtics playoff games. So they're like, yeah, give me the Cape this weekend. It's just, he just can't believe that.

We went from, oh yeah, this is going to be great. Celtic City's out. Make this move. And then it's just over and now we don't have our best player. And he's just like still shell-shocked, which I think most Celtic fans are. It reminds me of talking to team executives and coaches who have been on like a perennial playoff team. And then one year, catastrophe strikes and they're in the lottery. And they're like, is this what it's like when you're... Like, are seasons just over? It's April? It's April.

And what am I supposed to do for the next two months? I have my entire Memorial Day to just do things. Draft work? Is this what it's like for the Hornets every year? My colleagues with the Hornets just are kicking around Charlotte for two months trying to find out stuff to do, doing projects. All right, we should go. I do like when you're groggy, though. I feel like I can get more stuff out of you. Anything can happen. Anything can happen. What TV shows are you watching? Friends and Neighbors. A plus. A plus spouse neutral show. I finished it.

I went on the Apple screener app and watched the last one. I won't tell you what happens. Oh boy. There's only one more. There's only one more. It's a weird nine episode season. I'm up to date on what's public. Studio. Yep. Finish that.

Again, the Venn diagram of overlap between my wife and I is very narrow. Like it's no violence. Like I would do all kinds of violence. I'd do that on my own. Like Breaking Bad was a solo venture for me. That's like she has to go to bed and then you do Breaking Bad? Yeah, The Wire was a solo pre-kid venture for me. How?

Hacks. I'm a little lukewarm on the fourth season of Hacks. I loved seasons one through three. I don't quite know what's going on in this season, but it's earned the benefit of the doubt for me. I think that's all we've got going on. People have been asking when your first rewatchables appearance is going to be. Some people are saying. It's on the streets. Just keep me posted. If I've seen the movie, I'm happy to do it. I can't believe you're not doing a whole Mission Impossible retrospective. I'm a huge MI fan. I love all the Mission Impossible movies. Love them.

Love them. What was your number one? We did the Tom Cruise draft and it seems like, what was the one? Fallout? No. So after three, which is Philip Seymour Hoffman is the best Mission Impossible villain universally agreed upon. And apparently, I haven't seen the new one yet, apparently is referenced. The plot of that is a major plot point of Dead Reckoning 2 or whatever this one is called. Yeah.

After that, they all kind of blend into me until Dead Reckoning 1. So like Fallout, Rogue Nation, they all like to... He's sliding down one building and jumping on another. They all kind of blend into me. Do you agree with my theory that he's been trying to die during a stunt for like 12 years? I would believe anything about Tom Cruise. I would believe literally anything. This latest one with the plane, it's like you just have a death wish at this point. This is clearly how you want to go out.

He takes it very seriously. I applaud the seriousness with which he takes his craft. I also like that he just knows...

he's, he's like one of these like concert tour bands who like takes it very seriously. He wants to play some songs that they love. It's like, I got to also play the hits. I got to also run. Like I got to have a long shot of me running a long distance and just like, I gotta do it. That's all. It's like being in the podcast. I know I have to bring up the Celtics at some point, even if nobody wants it. It's just got to play. It's my version of cruise run. I'm ready. I'm ready to be called in to the rewatch. All right. I'm going to have to get a list from you. Yeah. I'm ready to, I'm ready to be, I, I,

I love the rewatchables when it's a movie I've seen recently. Yeah. I dive in. Well, we might have plenty of time for it because we might have both series ending in five games. Although both of us feel a little bullish on maybe the Knicks at least sending us back to Indy. Yeah, I was going to say, what would you peg the chances of a game seven in the New York-Indiana series happening? Wouldn't rule it out. Definitely wouldn't rule it out. Yeah, I guess we, you know, the whole pod, we were talking about the Knicks, like, what do they do? They're going to blow it up because it did feel...

To beat this team five times out of seven, like we discussed earlier, seems improbable. But who knows? Now it's swung to the point where, you know, you win five and then it turns into the Kevin Millar. Don't let us get six. It's the difference between having home court being down 3-1 and not having home court being down 3-1. I'm going to say like 30 to 35% chance there's a game seven. Really? They should be favored at home in game five, right? Are they favored? I'm going to give you all the odds right now.

They are... I'm going to say minus one and a half. I don't know. I'll think about it. Minus five. That's too high. Game five. That's too many points. That's a little high. And then for the series... And then you just got to hope that game six, you win game five, you got to hope game six, the nerves like, oh my God, we're on the verge of the finals. If we lose this game, we got to go on the road. You just got to hope. That's all. Indy is minus 600 to win the series. If you wanted to bet that the series will go seven games, that is plus 235 on FanDuel.

Okay. I don't know. What would you do for a prop for game five? If you had to pick one next thing that you think is going to happen in game five, what would it be like? I do have to pick a number like, no, no, just like pick a player that you think is just going to be awesome in game five on either team. All right. So it doesn't just have to be next. No, I'm expecting a big game from blank.

I don't want to go like Brunson or Halliburton. I think Miles Turner has, in whatever game the Pacers win to get to the finals, if they do, I think Miles Turner has a crowning Indiana Pacers moment. Like he makes six threes and scores 29 points.

I like that pick. And I also think he's been the most under-discussed player in the league the last 10 years who is only discussed in trade rumors and in no other capacity. As a basketball player, he is not discussed. He's not. He's played... How many career games has he played? 642 career games. He's been in 56 playoff games. He's been in two straight conference finals. In the last two years, he is 17-6 overall.

51%, 43% from three. It's like the kind of big man everyone's looking for. And he's just like, ah, I wonder if they'll trade him.

That's been his role. They almost have. It almost happened. What was the closest Miles Turner trade you can remember? Off the top of my head, there was a whole Gordon Hayward. There was a Gordon Hayward Celtics. Like Gordon Hayward going to Indiana, Turner going to Boston thing that was pretty close. I thought there was a Turner-Hield with the two firsts.

And the Westbrook contract for the Lakers at some point. And they didn't want to give up the second first. Pelicans looked at him for a high draft pick. I don't remember what year. And I don't know how close it got. I forgot to tell you this. The Pelicans are my bath salt team this year for the offseason. I'm ready for literally anything with them.

I thought that was the Tyson zone. Is that not the Tyson zone? That's now Bath Salt? They're the Bath Salt team. Are they going to trade up to the top three? Are they going to trade Zion? Are they actually going to try to build and feel like they can contend? I'm ready for literally anything. You name it. You have to be. With that roster, you have to be ready for anything. How many, like, is there a Trey Murphy trade? Do they try to do their version of a Derek White, Mikael Bridges trade with him? Do they try to move up?

Could there be a Spurs Pelicans move? Spurs go from two to seven, get Trey Murphy. I'm ready for anything. Could there be a three-way where Jalen Brown goes to the Pelicans and Trey Murphy goes to Boston and they swap or Jalen Brown goes to the Spurs? I love Jalen Brown. Trey Murphy goes to Boston. All of a sudden, we're really flying. Spurs go seven to two. I'm just ready for the Pelicans. All bets are off. Wow. Keep your seatbelts on. Yeah, I agree.

I don't know if Jalen Brown's going to be involved, but I'm ready for anything. I don't think they will trade Jalen Brown, just for the record. I would bet against it too, but it's going to be an interesting summer for your Boston Celtics. I think Drew Holiday will have, and I love Drew Holiday, but I don't think the team's going to compete next year. And I think Drew Holiday has real value for a lot of teams. And I think people are underrating that.

Yeah, there are a lot of teams that like Drew Holiday, including some teams that have tried to trade for him before and were not able to. That is exactly when teams talk about, we need an older veteran who's won and who knows how and only cares about winning. It's like, that's literally Drew Holiday. We hear this every year. Eight teams want a guy like that. So I just feel like, unfortunately, he's probably the one if they have to move. White's contract is too good. You can't trade White, I don't think.

I would, I would prefer, I would not want to be in the business of trading awesome basketball players who are still in their prime and do everything well. Just wouldn't want to be in that business on good contracts. Are you going to the game Thursday?

Uh, yeah, I have not gotten my official credential approval notice from the Madison Square Garden company, but I suspect that that will come through day of game and I'm excited to be there. Great. It was great to hang out with you here on YouTube live, uh, on the Bill Simmons podcast. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo as well. And, uh, I'm going to be back on Thursday. You're going to be Thursday morning. So after game five, OKC and, uh, Minnesota, which are, uh,

OKC is going to close it out, but I also like I wouldn't bet like a crazy amount of money on it. Hey, if OKC doesn't close out, that's good for the podcast. That'll be a surprising outcome. But I'm prepared with alternate content if necessary. Good idea. All right. Zach Lowe, great to see you. Always fun.

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