Milwaukee’s Crazy and Other NBA Summer Takeaways With Rob Mahoney, Plus a Boston Sports Check-In With Bill’s Dad
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Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2025. Anheuser-Busch McGlobal Ultra Light Beer, St. Louis, Missouri. The Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by the Ringer Podcast Network, where I put up a new Rewatchables on Monday night. We did After Hours, the Martin Scorsese cult classic. We wrapped up New York City Month, did five movies. Hope you checked them out. You can watch them on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well. So next Monday,

We did Jaws 2. We already taped it. It is a silly podcast. There were a lot of laughs, but Jaws 2, one of the first important sequels of the modern movie era and weirdly influential, but also very fun to talk about. So you can find that. I think it's on Peacock.com.

maybe for free, but pretty easy to find. So that's coming Monday night. We're going to get really weird during the summer with the rewatchable. So we're going to go off the board with a couple of the choices. So for this podcast,

I think this is my only one until Sunday. The only way I'm going to do another one is if something legitimately crazy happens, you know, like LeBron going to the Knicks or just something that needs a podcast. Otherwise, I am going to be back on Sunday with Rosillo and you can have a really fun July 4th weekend. It's always fun when July 4th is on a Friday. It feels like it's like

you basically get half of a week off. Coming up, Rob Mahoney and I are going to talk about everything that's happened in the NBA free agency the last couple of days. And then I might bring my dad on. He's very upset about the Celtics, so I might have him come on near the end. First, let's take a break, and then we'll do Pearl Jam. I've been waiting to move my head

All right. It's a little after nine o'clock on Wednesday morning. Rob Mahoney is here. I have, I've been, I'm bristling Rob. So many, I'm like a volcano. I'm just about to spout lava of NBA takes. You were able to get some off on the Ringer NBA show a couple of days ago.

I figured I could facilitate for you today. I can be the Derek White to your Luka Garza and you can just jack threes all pot long. In one-legged followers. Yeah. Like Alonzo Ball coming in, just trying to fit in. Absolutely. As everybody else gets shots. I have a big, I have a dozen, 12 thoughts on big picture, all this stuff that happened in the last few days. And I'm going to start here.

Because you didn't get to talk about this on the ringer NBA show because it happened afterwards. I thought what Milwaukee did was one of the most desperate, reckless moves that I could ever remember since I've been a basketball fan. I hated it. I don't understand it. I think it's a disaster. I didn't approve of any single aspect of it. Carrying the damn stretch thing for five years. Idiotic.

Doing it for Miles Turner, I have no idea why they would do that. I just don't understand why they wouldn't have just traded Giannis. If it's this desperate that you're going to pay for the next four years, $47 million, $49 million, $50 million, and $51 million for Miles Turner. Yep. And then on top of that, another $22 million in the fifth year when he's not even on the team. If that's the only recourse you have, if that's how desperate you are to keep Giannis,

I'm trading Giannis at that point. I'm folding my hand. And I just don't get it. This doesn't make them a top four team in the East. I'm only doing this if I'm a top four team in the East, and I'm not. So why am I doing this? Counterpoint, their future without Giannis is already cooked.

This is a team that's going to be so bad in the short term if they do trade him, even if they get back really good players, even if they get back good competitive players or good young prospects. I think the outlook is dire enough that I can understand the logic of steering into more dire, more risk, right? Like over-leveraging, putting the mortgage on the mortgage, all those things. I get the logic, but I do think it's telling that

through months, if not years, of Gianna's trade speculation and Buck's couch GMing that we've been doing, trying to figure out what the outcome of all this was going to be, I did not hear one person seriously suggest stretching Damian Lillard's contract.

Like that was never on the table and literally everything else was on the table. And so like this combination of moves is easily the one, two punch of like the most surprising things to happen so far. Like I just never would have imagined in a million years that Dane would get stretched and that the Bucks would have the flexibility to even sign someone like Miles Turner in the first place, regardless of whether you think it's a good fit or what you think of his game or any of that. Yeah, but do you think, so they had Brooke Lopez, they just could have re-signed him, right? He got two for 18 from the Clippers. Yeah.

If they just paid, let's say they topped it. They were like, all right, two for 20. Stick around for two more years. Keep Dame. So next year or this coming year, they would have been paying 60, let's say 61 for Lopez and Dame versus the 47 they're paying for Turner and Dame stretch. So they say that's an extra 14 million. Okay. So you basically say 14 million with this weird movie did. I just don't think there's much of a difference with Lopez and Turner.

I guess part of the problem is I don't like Miles Turner that much as an asset. He's fine. We, we saw him go through four rounds of the NBA playoffs. He played big minutes. Like he's clearly a playoff player, but I don't think he's like a missing piece for them. And the, and the other pieces next year, Dame's and expiring, which would have given them or would have been an expiring, which would have given them so much more flexibility for moves and just things to do. So you lose that too. And you just,

You just have the sunk cost now of every year. You're just $22 million lower than you should be on the cap. I don't understand it. I was driving when I saw it and I did like, ah, it was like one of those. Nobody stretches contracts of that size. It's never happened. This size, this amount of dead money, it's an unprecedented situation that the Bucks are putting themselves into. I

Again, like you liked it. I don't like it, but I understand why desperate teams do desperate things. And among the most desperate situations is when your superstar is on the brink of leaving or wanting out or doing something drastic in his own right. And so like, I don't love the stretch. I like the Miles Turner move. And here's the thing. It accomplishes one thing and one thing only. And we're going to see if this is true or not.

does it appease Giannis? Does it make Giannis happy? Is there something material about that change and that investment and that desperation that signals to him, okay, I want to come back and we're going to give this thing a try. I want to see how this works. And that to me is the biggest difference between Miles Turner and Brook Lopez. I think one difference is Brook Lopez just cannot be

a 30 minute a game playoff guy anymore. I think he's a really good regular season player still. It is that kind of situation. Brook Lopez as coming off the bench for the Clippers, amazing.

Great, great value on that deal. Still a really good rim protector, but limited in his mobility. Clearly, it's basically every player is his age. And so you're you're trading for a guy who just simply cannot do that starting job at a high minutes rate anymore for a guy who we just saw do it, you know, up and ups and downs for Miles Turner in the playoffs, certainly in the finals, like really struggled with the shooting. And you could see how teams like Oklahoma City, for example, really test him and really test his skill set.

But you're getting a guy who is a proven playoff performer at this point in Turner. Yes. And you're signaling something to Giannis. And if those two things are enough to keep him happy and continue Milwaukee Bucks, like not business as usual, but that's kind of the problem is every other move they've made pretty much has been bringing back Gary Trent Jr., bring back Bobby Portis, you know, like bringing back Torian Prince. If you are also going to bring back Brooke Lopez, then you're just last year's Bucks without Damian Lillard. And that's

That team is not going to be good enough and it's not going to be persuasive to Giannis in really any way. But this is persuasive? We're going to find out. I don't know. Giannis, Giannis, stay here. We have no future. We've ruined our salary cap. Like when you say it's desperate, there's levels of desperation. Like if I was trying to impress Giannis and convince him he should stay here and I chopped off my thumb and it's like, here's how much I care.

It's still crazy to chop off your thumb, which is basically what this deal is. I like Miles Turner more than Brooke Lopez. I don't think it's significant enough that all the other stuff that comes with this deal, I just don't fully understand it. And I still feel like throwing away that giant expiring was a better asset than the upgrade of, you know, just, hey, Giannis, just wait. We feel like we're going to be able to trade...

Dame in a year. And by the way, they don't have to trade Giannis either. I know he's a superstar. I know he won the title, but it's, if he's like, I want out, it doesn't mean you necessarily have to trade him if there's not a deal. I just felt what was really shocking to me, and this goes to the second, the second thing that jumped out to me was Houston overstocking their roster, getting Finney Smith and then getting Capella. And it's like, huh? So they have three centers. Yep.

And you have Finney Smith, but you also have Amen Thompson. And you have Eason. And you have Whitmore. And you have all these wings. It's not enough minutes for everybody. Why are you doing this? And it just felt like they were heading toward a three-for-one for Giannis and not telling us, right? And then the Dame stretch happens. And that was when I was like, I don't know what's happening anymore. But I... So you think...

You think Giannis is going to look at this and go, oh, you guys did it. I wasn't sure if I wanted to stay, but now that we have Miles Turner and now that we have no cap, now we have a bad cap situation. Yeah. I guess I'll stay.

I think by everything Giannis has said and the way he has postured throughout all this is that he's looking for a reason to stay. He is looking for the validation to continue playing for the Bucs and being part of the next Bucs contender. I think he just wants anything. He wants some sign of life. And maybe this is that. Again, this is something that nobody expected. This is a level of flexibility and a caliber of player that I just did not think the Bucs were going to be able to add given their limited resources.

and they did something

They did something foolish and maybe insane in the process. But like, since when do superstars care about the long-term implications of the moves that are made to appease them? Like that's kind of part of the job. That's how you, that's how you get in trouble though. Well, that's, that's how, once you stop thinking about long-term completely and trying to appease somebody, hoping they'll stay like, like this is whether you're in a relationship or a relationship with an NBA star. Like this is the worst thing you can do. For the Bucks. Absolutely. For Giannis, like,

It's not really his concern what happens to the Bucs in 2031 if he's not on the team anymore. For him, it's like, what are we doing right now to make this a more appealing situation for me so that I want to play here? Like, he's earned the right to look at it through that kind of framework.

This is the equivalent of our relationship isn't going well. Let's have a kid. Maybe it'll make it better. That's what this is. And you go back to the Kuzma trade, which I also hated. Yeah, that was getting the dog. That was the trial run before you had the kid to save the relationship. And not even just the dog. It was like getting a Great Dane when you have a one bedroom apartment. Ah, who cares? But you do that Kuzma thing and you have Middleton, who would have been an expiring this year.

And you trade AJ Johnson, who actually might have had some, I don't know, a modicum of trade value. So you do that. And now you're basically all in with Kuzma and Miles Turner, right?

And you have no trade flexibility anymore. And this is your roster. And I just don't get it. I was, I even used, I use Google AI for the first time, Rob. Really? I've always been afraid to go down that corner. Cause like it would make rewatchables prep way easier if I'm just like, Hey Google, tell me all the reasons Jaws 2 blah, blah, blah. Give me a bunch of fake information. So the making of Jaws 2. I didn't want to go down that AI road, but.

I was racking my brain trying to figure out a more desperate, reckless move in the history of the league. And I actually asked AI and it was suggesting stuff like the Chandler Parsons free agent contract and things like that. And I was like, there's no way that comes close. The two things I can think of, the Brooklyn Celtics trade when they got Pierce and Garnett.

And they just threw in like that extra swap. Like the picks, if you just made the picks, it made sense because they were also dumping Gerald Wallace. They were getting Pearson Garnett back. Like they were trying to win the title. Everything was defensible until you got to like that extra swap and maybe one more pick. The other one, there was an Orlando moment that is a little reminiscent of this near the end of Dwight Howard.

when it felt like the Dwight Howard situation was going to get a little gamey. He was going to be a free agent, I think after 2011 or 12. And they traded Rashard Lewis for Gilbert Arenas. I was about to say, I know the Gilbert Arenas drop is coming. This is, that was really a moment in time. So in the Rashard Lewis, I think he had two years left, but you could buy out the second year for a price. And Gilbert just had the three years left.

And it was one of those, Hey Dwight, look, we got, we got Gilbert Arenas. And guess what? Dwight didn't care because of the team's not that good. Yeah. The star is going to move on anyway. I just think, I personally think they should have just traded Giannis. I just would have done it. He won the title. I think the Bucks fans would have been okay with it. As much as I love stars finishing their career, if he wanted to go,

then you do it. If he wants to stay, but he's like mutilate our team going forward, then that's not a reason to keep him. I don't think. But we... It's interesting. You're kind of like half zagging. I feel like you're testing out a zag here. Look, I'm never going to full zag into setting $24 million on fire every year from your cap. Like that's...

What it costs to execute this move is so dramatic that there's a reason basically no one else would do something like this other than the Bucs. But maybe to add to your list of desperation moves, like this is not the first time the Bucs have done something desperate. This is a team that just threw like, I don't know, five second round picks at Nikola Miritic. It's the team that like traded a ton to get Drew Holiday in the first place. Like they have been on this particular treadmill for a long time trying to find finishing pieces, trying to find, you know, foundational pieces for the team around Giannis and

this is where you end up when you do that for years, year after year after years, you don't have anything to trade. And therefore you have to wave and stretch Damian Lillard just to make a move like this possible. Cleveland was in this situation with LeBron in the late two thousands when it just became like a Jenga stack of bad moves. And you're just like, Oh, this bad contract, I'll turn it into an even where, and they just, and it was all these named dudes on the wrong point of their careers. This is to me worse. And,

Look, Giannis, I mean, he tried to pretend he was upset about this yesterday. I don't think you do this move without running it by him. I just don't. Yeah. I just don't. That's not how the league works. This is such a dramatic move. At some point, you have to go, yo, if we got Miles Turner, it's going to have to cost us some shit. We won't have Dame next year. Right. We're probably going to have to get rid of him. Would that be cool with you? So I just feel like he has to sign off. If this bought you...

two years of Giannis, this full season and all of next season. Is that enough? Is that enough to you? Like if you knew he was going to be on board and a Milwaukee buck for two years, is that enough? I think I still would have traded him to Houston, but I think it's a valid point. If he promised, like, I will stay here for the next two years. If you do this, I'm just, I'm still dubious that he was holding a gun to their heads.

He never said anything publicly. I know there's been a lot of buzz privately, but he never said one thing. So I mean, what's really scary for this, if you're a Bucks fan,

is maybe they didn't do this to appease Giannis. Maybe they just thought this was a good idea. They just want to live on the edge. That's where I would be really scared. All right, so the Houston piece, that was the second thing I was looking at. Yep. Them overstocking their roster and all the flexibility they have. I mean, here's their roster right now. They have Shengun, Adams, and Capella, and Jock Landau, who's apparently just not going to play anymore. Yeah. They have Durant, Jabari Smith, and Finney Smith. They have a men Thompson,

Eason Whitmore, Fred Van Vliet and Reed Shepard. And there's only 240 minutes in a basketball game. Yeah. So that, that my interpretation is,

is they're stacking this for a three for one in the December, January, February range that they, they basically have depth at every position now. And if somebody comes to them and says, we'll do this for Shingun, I wouldn't trade Thompson, but Shingun and Thompson for this, or Shingun, Jabari Smith and Eason, plus some of your picks for this, they're not positioned for that. And then also they're one of the five contenders in the NBA now.

One of the five best odds. Yeah. So no brainer, but I was just the Capella thing really surprised me. What was your take on the Rockets? I think there's two things. One, you're right. Like opening themselves up for future trades. If they come up like the Rockets have been a team that have had too many guys for years already. And so to add even more bodies to that mix is, is surprising.

But it's a powerful thing if you're going to make those sorts of midseason trades like you saw what just happened to the Lakers, for example, when they made a huge team changing trade in the middle of the run. And all of a sudden you just don't have a complete rotation. Yeah, I think basically any permutation of a deal that the Rockets would make, they would still have some quality center. They would still have enough wings. They would still have enough guard play to make all those things work midstream, which clearly they're trying to push forward and contend right now.

The other part of it, I would say, is Kevin Durant is the piece that makes them so much more formidable in the playoffs. Like an absolute half-court killer, one of the best shot creators in the game under that context, really important player. Clint Capella and Dorian Finney-Smith, I think will help, and especially Dorian in the playoffs, like I'm sure will be part of the rotation in a meaningful way if he's still on the team by then. They help you get through the regular season in a way that's really important. Like, you can't, you don't want to play...

Steven Adams even necessarily full-time backup minutes over the course of the regular season. You want to save him a little bit so that he can have the kind of impact he had in last year's playoffs. Tari Eason gets hurt a ton. Kevin Durant has a ton of mileage on him. And a guy like Dorian Finney-Smith helps you alleviate the burden on those guys in terms of the minutes that they're ultimately going to be playing. And so it is a really deep rotation. You got to find some way to keep everybody happy while...

you know, giving Reed Shepard some developmental opportunities while letting Ahmed Thompson be everything he can be while letting Jabari play the three and the four and the five. Apparently, like you want to do all that stuff and it's going to be hard for Emo Doka to balance all of it at once. But what a great problem to have. Well, especially this is basically the OKC model of like just a ton of depth giving guys a day off and

You saw how it worked for Alex Caruso. That's kind of the model that they need to take with some of these. Tari Eason needs to be on the Alex Caruso plan. I think that's ultimately the goal for someone like him. It's a really good team. I'm still not... There's a Jabari Smith stretch five piece that it's funny they have all these centers because the lineup I was probably the most excited about was KD with Jabari Smith and Eason and Thompson and a guard where they're just a little more like Indiana-ish.

But they also have this ability to go big ball too. Listen, I'm going to make fun of a bunch of GMs and teams over the course of this podcast. You got to hand it to Houston, man. I still didn't love the Harden trade. I thought it was weird that they didn't get enough assets back, but it all worked out. And everything they did the last three years, I just fully support. But the Finney-Smith piece, that leads to the third thing. The Lakers losing Finney-Smith.

And then all the LeBron stuff, it just feels like the big takeaway as we head into July 4th weekend is the Lakers are going to be a capital F fucking soap opera. This feels like just content.

constantly. And the Finney Smith thing, which I think with the people that know this shit, it didn't feel like it was a big enough story publicly that the Lakers screwed up the Finney Smith thing, that him and his agent felt like Polenko was kind of negging his value in the open market and telling teams he was hurt. And they found out about it and they pulled back and were like, that's it. We're not. And then they went and solicited the Houston thing

I think the Lakers thought he was coming back and that they were going to get a center and that was going to be their summer plan. Instead, they lose him. They have to pivot to LaRavio, who they probably could have gotten anyway. All June, we were like, every Laker fan, well, we're going to get a center when we get a center, when we get a center. And I would always be like, well, who's the center? And now we're sitting here, it's 9.26 a.m. And the only center left is DeAndre Ayton, who Portland paid to go away.

And they lose Finney Smith, this guy who I thought was important for them because they, you know, he plays well with Luca and he's exactly the kind of guy you need if you're going to have Luca and LeBron together.

So just let's start there. Yeah, this is a disaster for them because they're just not they're not even close to the top four in the West now. I don't think they feel really far removed from it. Like they needed to have a great summer in exactly the way you described, like bring in a center who can actually play, not only bring back Dorian Finney-Smith, but be like adding net players to your rotation. This was a team that was just like starved for guys who could actually stay on the floor.

in terms of playoff viable rotation players. So to lose Dorian Finney-Smith, look, he's an imperfect player. He's not the best defender in the league, but he's a very good one. He's not the best shooting wing in the league. He can be a little streaky, but he's certainly good enough for a team like the Lakers in their position. A summer in which you get one of these free agent center options, plus bring back Dorian, plus get Jake LaRaeve, who I actually quite like as a rotation guy. Me too. That's a pretty good start.

To whiff on two of those things already in a way that, I mean, you're not just like banking on DeAndre Ayton. You are praying for DeAndre Ayton. Because left, there's not one center left. Horford's going to go and stay. I mean, that's basically treated as a foregone conclusion around the league right now. Everyone is assuming that Horford will be a Golden State warrior. And we'll see if that ends up happening or not. But it's happening.

outside of that, I really don't know where they turn. They've already missed out on Lopez, who we talked about. They have missed out on Luke Cornett. They missed out on Bobby Portis. They missed out on Kavon Looney, Jalen Williams. Like all these guys are already off the board. They missed out on Luke Garza. They missed out on Luke Garza. They missed out on Josh Minot. They could only be so lucky, frankly, at this point. But the LeBron thing is such a huge wrench. And I think what makes it especially painful is that

what LeBron has articulated vis-a-vis Rich Paul about this being a cute little rebuilding team at present is not entirely wrong. Like this is not a team that is close to the level of competition that would threaten the thunder. Like they're just not even close to it. We're still, and I talked about it Sunday and I was pretty focused on it. Cause I felt like it was going to be a big, I thought the LeBron, the Rich Paul statement, I was like, this is what's happening here. This feels aggressive. And, uh,

I think part of it was they already knew Finney Smith was leaving, which leads to that statement where like, wait, we were losing him. What the hell's going on? This is part of the soap opera piece. LeBron with no leverage for the first time in his career playing for somebody else's team where they've clearly said we're in the loop of business. They had that thing come out yesterday about we don't want contracts longer than the next two years.

We've never seen a star as famous and as successful as LeBron in a situation like this. It never happened to Kareem. It never happened to Bill Russell. It never happened to Michael Jordan. It never happened to Larry Bird. It never happened to Magic Johnson.

And those are the best players. And it never happened to Tim Duncan. These are all the best parts in the history of the league. None of them have ever been in a situation where they're on somebody else's team, on somebody else's timeline. And the team is like, we don't really care what you think about any of this. And that's why he's obviously going to get traded at some point. I just think, I think you can lock that one down. He doesn't want to be, it doesn't seem like he wants to be in the Lakers. And I think he wants to win titles, which was what I said Sunday night. I cannot figure out the team.

Um, I thought Woz was on Zach's pod yesterday and kind of whipped out of a towns for LeBron trade. And I was kind of like, Oh, that's really interesting. Who says who has a longer meeting about that? Cause if you're the Knicks, you get off all the towns money you do. And if you're the Lakers, you get to reboot, you get out of LeBron and

who's I just think going to be more and more grumbly as the year goes along because he's never been in this situation. You bring in Towns, it doesn't fit your contract timetable, but at least he's a center. Yeah. And you have two amazing shooters. And I don't know. I don't know who would say no faster. Who would say no faster? I think the Knicks might.

Not because like, look, the virtues of adding LeBron to a team in New York's position are not lost on me. There's just such an opportunity in the East right now. And if you're, I think if you're the Knicks and the Cavs in particular, it just behooves you to not do something super dramatic right now. Like keep the teams that you know work, add on the edges as the Knicks have done, like Gershon Yabusele, Jordan Clarkson. Like those are, that's a good off season for New York already in terms of shoring up some of their weaknesses. Yeah.

You know the rest of this stuff works. Carl Anthony Towns just had an all-NBA season. I think he made second team. He was an incredible player for them.

I think losing him would hurt their offense in ways that they might just kind of casually overlook as we're kind of talking through the LeBron possibilities. And look, anytime LeBron's on the board, you have to take the meeting. You have to talk about it. You have to figure out what are the permutations of this that can work. I just, I think Kat is really valuable to the Knicks and his present tense value as a team that could win the East next season is more important to me than ultimately what his contract is going to drag down in a couple seasons.

So you don't think Nick's GM coach, Rick Brunson, would sign up on this also because it would maybe affect his son? There you go. Seems like a problem. When the Brunsons are running the Knicks, we're like, why do they want LeBron in there? Trying to think he knows stuff. I would think about it from a salary cap standpoint too, because you got to pay bridges in a year.

And you're going to have just a super expensive roster. And the LeBron piece would allow you to kind of change the money a little bit where LeBron's got, I mean, people are claiming he's got a year left. I don't think so. I think it's, I think this goes more like Tom Brady where it just kind of keeps going and going and going. But I, I'm just, he's not going to win a title in the Lakers. I said this Sunday night, it's not happening.

What's important to him? Well, the other important thing would be I have my own team that I'm running. He doesn't have that either. So there has to be some sort of outcome that's not the outcome he's in now. I was thinking it's a little like to be more in the substance, just running out of options, kind of trying to grab some magic elixir. I don't know what the elixir is in this case and I don't know what the team is. Can I throw another trade at you that I was thinking about? Please do, yeah.

What about Kawhi for LeBron? They both get to stay in LA. Yeah. Little change of scenery for each. If you're the Lakers, you get out of this weird LeBron situation. I don't know if it changes your destiny that much, but at least it resets whose team it is. I think the Lakers would say no, but I thought that was an interesting one too. I kind of like it. Oh. Ultimately, I think there's probably too much extracurricular shit online

on an LA to LA trade for both teams to actually do it. Like the whole, like you just have to live in this city and deal with the fact that if this trade goes sideways, it went sideways on a daily basis might be reason enough to not do it. But as LeBron destinations go, I think the Clippers make more sense than the Mavericks, for example, who like that stuff is just kind of out there right now as far as like, oh, Dallas could be an option. I don't really see mechanically how that would work. I don't really see the argument for it. But look,

this is kind of how you have to think about LeBron at this point. Like he is one of the best players in the world. He is also a player who does stuff like this from time to time and wants to exert a certain level of control over circumstances as he should. And so you're, you are kind of trading LeBron

a flawed, caveated star for another one. It's going to be someone with a contract like Towns or a player of a clearly lower caliber like an OG Ananobi, or it's going to be someone like Kawhi with all the questions that come with him. That's kind of the market you're trying to get into. Yeah, or the other one would be Ananobi and Mitchell Robinson together. And I don't know why the Knicks would do that. I don't know why the Knicks would do it, but from the Lakers' perspective, you can clearly see the outline of something there.

Yeah. And we thought Sunday I was talking about Cleveland and Cleveland possibilities, but once they extended Sam Merrill, that kind of ruined, they're so far over the second apron now, they can't really do anything. Well, I look at the West, OKC, Minnesota, Houston, Denver, and the Clippers just on a different level than the Lakers. It's not close. Those teams have better rosters. The only scenario would be Luca just coming in, in shape, having some crazy, I'm going to carry everybody here. Sure.

But I don't know if that's a great situation for LeBron. All right, we're taking a break and then I got more stuff to throw you. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Cracking up at a cold one on a hot summer day is one of the best feelings, but it's even better when it feels like you've earned it. Like in a little friendly competition. It's always better.

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All right. I'm sad we haven't brought them up yet, but the Nuggets finally realized and they have Nikola Jokic on their team and acting accordingly was one of my dozen things that I absolutely loved. And look, I just want to see Jokic with a good enough team. I'm a Celtic fan.

I root for certain players. I just like watching Jokic. His team wasn't good enough last year. They didn't spend enough money on it. It was just a flawed roster. They still took OKC to seven, which was a borderline fucking miracle. And you know what else was a miracle? Turning Michael Porter Jr. into Cam Johnson. Saving $17 million a year

And maybe, I don't know if it's necessarily an upgrade. Cause I do think Porter, if he's healthy and his shoulders not fucked up, did, you know, did some okay things for them. He sucks on defense. Um,

but this is a miracle for them to shave money and then all of a sudden now you get brown and bruce brown and tim hardaway and vet minimums you're able to trade sarge and take back valen shootins um contract and now i have a bench now i can take yokich out of a game i know and run little seven minute offenses around jonas valen shunis and actually like tread water this was incredible rob they're plus 900 to win the title on fanduel i think they have the fifth best odds

I think that's the best value out of all the, all the title bets. I really, they were close last year. Okay. So you'd be a little better. We found out Jalen Williams was hurt during the, uh, whole second half of the season, which nobody really knew, but, uh,

I love everything they did. And I'm sure you're a Cam Johnson guy. I'm sure you love the Cam Johnson on the Nuggets spit. Oh, definitely. And especially the idea of Michael Porter Jr. is a uniquely talented shooter and really one of the best shooters in terms of a guy who's that big who can also hit on the move. Like this is not just like a pick and pop or standstill stretch for like you can run Michael Porter Jr. off curls and he's a real threat.

You can run Cam Johnson off curls. And he's, I would say, even better at that exact thing. Not quite to the same ridiculous, like, extreme proportions. Like, Michael Porter Jr. is a giant three-point shooter. But Cam Johnson's about as close as you're going to get. And so...

And so to get that player at that much cheaper and those savings in this case, like our material, like this is the difference in the Nuggets having actual flexibility versus not. This is not just like, how much money are we saving the Cronkies? Like this is a big deal in terms of the team building of the Nuggets. And they're in a position where they could still potentially add pieces. They're probably incentivized not to because of the tax, but they could. And ultimately the idea that you're taking last year's roster and getting it to a place where you have what, like I would say six,

rock solid playoff guys. And after that, a good collection of, okay, in this series, Jonas Valanciunas is going to be a real player for us. In this series. I would say seven. Who do you consider? Oh, I guess Peyton Watson, I guess, is a pretty solid seven. I mean, they got Hardaway Jr. I feel like I could throw him out, but I can throw him out in the second quarter of a playoff game and not worry what they had in the playoffs last year. These young guys where you feel like the three is going to hit the side of the backboard.

At least he's not going to be scared. Yeah, he will not be. I can promise you he will not be scared. This is the Tim Hardaway Jr. thing. And this is why this is such a great fit for him. The less you have to rely on him, the better Tim Hardaway Jr. is. Just be a heat check guy for us. One of the things I love about what they did is that now they can bring, like they can take Aaron Gordon out of the game. Hmm.

And put Bruce Brown in to do like a, basically a short Aaron Gordon impression for like five, six minutes. Right. That's what he's playing off the ball. He's running the baseline. He's doing all that stuff. They can, uh, they can have the cam Johnson basically in the Michael Porter jr. Role, but then they also have those young guys, maybe a year older. I know that could be okay. And then they actually have a backup center. That's not Deandre Jordan.

who might be able to come in and punish a backup center or backup big guy for five minutes and make some points happen. And I still feel like they got one move left. Like Saric wasn't playing for them. No. You know? I think they got a rotation guy for Dario Saric. And I don't even know what the Kings are up to at this point in the game. But frankly, a miracle, given where Saric's trade value was. And this is... There are a lot of miracles in this offseason. A lot of them had to do with really stupid teams. And somebody like Sacramento going...

man, we just need more money to pay Dennis Schroeder so we can be the 12th best team in the West. Let's take Sarich's contract and we can dump Valanciunas and now we'll have enough money. It's like, good, great job, guys. I just think for Denver, if I was a Denver fan, we talked about a bunch on this pod, I would have been so upset. I just feel like they cheaped out last year on him. Yeah.

You have a guy like that who's a generational superstar. You can't cheap out. And they did. And it comes down to a seventh game in OKC that they got waxed in. But really, the first six games, a couple that they could have swung. I think if they had one more guy or one more guy you could rely on. Like Bruce Brown could be the difference between an OKC style matchup.

And he's had a rough couple seasons, but just having a live body in the way you described, who is doing some of the Aaron Gordon stuff and some of the backup point guard stuff and some of the Christian Brown on-ball defense. That's a miracle of a player to get for the minimum. Somebody that you know fits in with your team perfectly. Without a doubt. So the last thing they probably need is some sort of Jamal Murray...

Um, if he's out for two weeks, you know, if you want to rest his minutes, if you want to rest them for a game, they don't really have that guy yet. Um, those guys are available anyway. Congrats to Denver. Thank God. Next one. Next topic. It's officially the Trey young superstar audition season. Hell yeah. Because Atlanta had an awesome off season. Just awesome. Um, I think they're an actual contender in the East. There's no question.

They have a starting lineup of Trey, Jalen Johnson, Dyson Daniels, Alexander Walker, and Okongwu with Risa Shea, Porzingis, Newell, and still room for one more guy off the bench. And they have picks to trade. Well, they did get Luke Kennard too. Oh, and Luke Kennard. I forgot to write him down. Luke Kennard. Wow. I really like this team. Luke Kennard was my dream Denver guy. And still the trade exception for one more guy if they wanted to get Frisky. And yet...

all of it hinges on whether trae young is actually a superstar or not yeah we're gonna find out once a pro he's got last year of his deal and we're gonna see let's see let's see what this looks like we have given you the perfect car you are brad pitt and f1 on imax right now that was a junker of a car they really had to fix it up maybe this is his fix-up season oh did you see i still haven't i'm seeing f1 probably today it's good you liked it worth the ticket gotta see it on imax okay um

We're going to find out now with Trae Young is my point. Any thoughts? I think he has shown a lot of the precursors of that last season.

in terms of his willingness to commit to defense a little bit more, in terms of the way he was playing on offense. He was doing all the stuff you want to see from Trey Young. It just didn't result in the overall kind of team season that we may want from the Atlanta Hawks. And now they have all the more reason and all the more insurance in terms of just the depth of this roster to get through the year. And I think even more of an identity that makes sense for them. And it makes sense for Quinn Snyder, frankly. They ended up in that zone where they were neither an elite offense nor an elite defense. Yeah.

Well, the Jalen Johnson injury kind of said that. I mean, they lost him for four months. Completely took the wind out of their sails. And if Jalen Johnson can stay healthy, and that's an if in its own right, and if Chris Absporzingas can stay healthy, and that's an if in its own right, and if Anyaka Okonkwo can stay healthy, also an if, they're going to be really well positioned. Like, they're going to look like a really dynamic team. And in terms of, good lord, like,

Nikhil Alexander Walker and Dyson Daniels together is it's not quite Oklahoma City's perimeter defense, but it's the closest you're going to find in the east. It's well, then you to put Johnson and Daniels and Alexander Walker together. Hell yeah. That's just not a fun night for opposing perimeter guys. It's like, ah, fuck, I'm playing the Hawks tonight. Let's hunt Trey Young. Oh, shit. Trey's not in the game.

Now what do we do? And I like that they have Porzingis kind of as the wild card, who the fuck knows guy. Oh yeah. You know, because if he can be closer to first year Celtics versus second year Celtics, that's like now you're putting him out there with Trey. Like you have all these different wrinkles now. I don't know. I really like this Hawks team.

We have a smart Hawks team. I know. Look, it's a whole new era. It really is. I think the thing with Porzingis, in addition to just being that sort of wild card, he doesn't really cost them anything. Like if you're the Celtics, he is immeasurably, well, he is measurably expensive, incredibly expensive to the point that they're still over the second apron somehow. They dumped all the salary. They're still a second apron team. The whole situation is kind of ridiculous.

Fear the Hawks, this is a short-term bet on a very talented player in a somewhat more contained role that I think could make sense for him. And it's an expiring worst-case scenario. It's a $30 million expiring that with your picks, you might be able to go, let's say he breaks down or gets hurt, whatever. You can still potentially flip that. I thought that trade...

I don't know what Brooklyn was doing with that trade, especially when you saw some of the prices of some of these guys like Finney Smith or Duncan Robinson. Like Terrence Mann at $15 million. Yeah. To also get the 22nd pick to take that and use your cap space, I just don't personally understand it.

I just think there's better, like the Celtics, I think would have traded Sam Houser to whoever. And Sam Houser is like four years, 38 million, something like that. It's a really good contract for a rotation guy. I don't understand why I'm paying Terrence Mann 15 million a year and why that would be a good thing. It's not a horrendous deal. And like Terrence Mann's a good player. So it's not like they're taking pure dead money as is often the case. I'm just saying compared to all these signings we're watching. Yes. I just don't understand it.

Here's my perspective on it. If you were- Capella's going to make $7 million a year. Yeah. Terrence Payne's going to make $15 million.

If you are going to be the basically one team with cap space, do not use it this early for that purpose. Like we, we've just talked about all the ways that the bucks are desperate. They're not the only team. Like the Lakers are in that, in that space too. Like there's so many teams who are trying to get stuff done right now. And if you can just wait and not jump at Terrence man in a pick, then I think Brooklyn had an opportunity to play out this market a little bit more, but yeah,

Also, they have four fucking picks already. What do they need a fifth pick for? You already have four. What are you doing? Just wait. You're the only team with cap space. We're going to talk about them later. I have a lot of thoughts on them. That's kind of the other part of the LeBron conversation too is that the Lakers in many ways, although their situation is messy and complicated and they're going to have to find their way out of it,

they are so incredibly lucky that LeBron's situation is coinciding with a market with zero cap space. Like there's no free agent team where LeBron would have turned down his option and then gone there. And that's the only reason we can even talk about, like, can they get OG Ananobi? Like they should be so lucky again as to get a player like that. Yeah, that's a good point. Well, Atlanta's in the mix. I think Atlanta right now on FanDuel, they are 30 to one now. So when we did the draft broadcast a week ago,

Um, there were 33 to one to win the East and there's 30 to one to win the title. And I think there's, you have new Orleans, I'm sorry, New York, Orlando and Cleveland definitely ahead of them. I think there are probably four in the East right now. I have them over Detroit, Philly, Milwaukee, Miami, and obviously Indiana and Boston, which brings us to the next thing. Um, it's official. It seems like Indiana and Boston are doing gap years. Yeah.

I didn't know with Indiana. Obviously, no Hal Burton for the rest of the year, but they're deep and it seemed like Turner was coming back. They pivoted. I don't blame the pivot. I think...

I see it both ways, but I would rather have the flexibility and the fact that they, this really sneaky situation of them getting their first round pick back before Halliburton got hurt. One of the weirdest stroke of the Halliburton thing, the worst luck possible. Yes. Getting the pick back a week before, like kind of weirdly lucky. So now if they want, they can just throw away the season and, and getting rid of miles Turner, I think was a sign. Um,

They don't have a center now. I guess Nembhard's going to be the point guard, but they might not be a playoff team. What would you do if you were Indiana? I think it depends on the thinking behind Miles Turner. If the reason you don't bring back Miles Turner is because you value some of the flexibility, and honestly, there are good basketball reasons, even for a team that just went to the finals, to want to reconsider its center spot in general. Like Miles Turner...

A good shooter, like showed himself to be flexible enough, like rolling into kind of mid range shots, like sealing smalls inside. Some good defensive stretches. Definitely some good defensive stretches. And I would say, especially in the finals, that was kind of his better end of the floor.

But at the same time, you might want someone who connects more on screens and frees up Halliburton to drive. You may want someone who's even more of a presence going downhill. I think it's fair for the Pacers with everything they have and one of the best passers in the world coming back after his injury to think about what do we want the future of our team to look like? I think you could probably re-sign Miles Turner and still have all those conversations and debates and entertain the trade market down the line. What I worry about is that

This is a team that has never paid the luxury tax. And Miles Turner is basically this contract that would have put them over the tax. And so if like, actually, they have. It's just been 20 years, sorry, since the Pacers have paid the luxury tax. If that's the reason, after you just went to the finals, miss me with that. Like, I'm just not compelled by that as a reason to not bring back Miles Turner.

It just seems like it was a little rich for their blood, whether it was the tax or whatever else. Um, okay. So he left them alone at the top of the key of the whole series. They just did. He couldn't shoot and he couldn't make a shot. And,

I told that story after what game four, when they had that, that 86, 76 lead and probably the title in their hands that game. Cause I think if they win game four, they win the thing. And he missed a couple. And the guy behind me was like, God, Miles, that's your shot. Like he had this 25 footer at the top of the key. That was his shot for his entire Halliburton run. And he just, it stopped going in. I think that,

When you think like, uh, it's probably only going to get worse for a big guy as they hit their thirties. They seem like they got spooked. And if you think, all right, this is our gap year. Miles Turner helps them win games. Maybe they did. That makes me think they don't want to win games. Maybe not. That's where they've landed. And it also allows them to bring math room back. But, um, it's going to be a weird, weird team. They have a lot of equity with their fans.

Um, there was a piece with this though, that him going to Milwaukee was really interesting because those teams really dislike each other. Definitely. Um, that was like, it reminded me a little when Ray Allen, I mean, this was worse when Ray Allen went to Miami, uh,

And the Celtics had just been through that 2012 Eastern Conference Finals war with them. That was really, really surly and competitive. And then he jumped over there and it wasn't, I never blamed him because they tried to trade him in February. Yeah. So it's like, all right, we can't play the loyalty card when they almost traded him four months ago. But

Same thing. It was like, whoa, you're going to Miami? We hate those guys. And I think the Pacers-Bucks is a little bit like that. So that one surprised me. Look, that's one area in which, look, the Bucks being more competitive next season, and we'll see how much the Pacers lean into the idea of really pushing hard to win as many games as possible. But every time those teams play, it's going to be fun. Every time you see Miles Turner in a Bucks jersey, I think it's going to add something a little to the game. And they're going to get

Isaiah Jackson back, presumably to like the qualifying offering on him. And he, you know, again, long-term recovery from the torn. He also had a torn Achilles last season, but was a good energy big for them. And if he can be that again, you can start to see how a center rotation would come together. Not one that's as good as the group that just went to the NBA finals, but that's the way it goes. Yeah. And maybe, I don't know if they've decided on Thomas Bryan yet, but I know he's still a free agent. Um,

Maybe you just try to patch it together with him and Isaiah Jackson and do the math. And I'm like, could these guys give 70% of his stats and,

40% of the defense and we were paying 5 million bucks instead of 25 rest assured they already locked in Tony Bradley Tony Bradley is going nowhere he is an Indiana pacer pick up that option good job Tony Bradley it'd be funny if Indiana hated Milwaukee so much they're like let's let's let them have Turner and screw their cap with this damn lower thing let's let's send these guys you know what

That would be the light years move. If you're the Indiana Pacers and you're like, you know what? All time spite move. We're not, we're not contending until Tyrese comes back anyway. Let's see where we are in two to three years. Has any team demolished another team kind of quietly more than Indiana has demolished the bucks over the last couple of years. If they've still taken their heart and playoff series, now they've stuck them with a terrible cap situation. I just want to say, I, I,

We got to talk about the Boston piece too. I just, the new CBA is just an apocalypse. It's one of the worst things that I can remember in any pro sports league. How it played out this way where you have good teams basically sabotaging themselves. Yeah. Because they're so afraid of these penalties that I don't know who wanted. I don't know who the penalties were.

serve other than the owners as a check and a balance for them not to spend too much money. That seems to be the only positive. But when you have Boston basically just, you know, I was walking with my daughter the other day. I did. I actually put this on YouTube as a short because we, the Celtics have lost Cornette.

And I was talking to her about it and she was, you know, she's, this is the first team she's ever liked. She goes to the games. She just, she doesn't know any better. She thinks these guys are just going to be in a team for 20 years. They lose Porzingis. They lose Drew Holiday. They lose Cornette. I'm like, we're going to lose Al Horford to Golden State. And she's like, I don't understand. I really like these guys. Why do they have to go? And I'm like, I don't know. Blame the CBA. I just don't think this is good for anybody to have.

to have teams sabotaging themselves to save money. That's a bad place to be in as a league.

For the solution to the super team free agent movement to make it basically impossible for contenders to sustain over time feels like a real misallocation of what actually just happened. Like we're solving, we're trying to solve a problem by ultimately crippling the one actual solution is like internal development, team's ability to retain their own players. And the currency basically makes that model prohibitive to the point that, yeah, teams like the Celtics are,

not just incentivized, but there is almost no logical explanation for why they would not take a gap year under these circumstances. Like they need the relief. It opens them up. It's really the only way they can sort of rebuild their roster down the line.

And so this is what ends up happening. It's like, you know, you're just going to watch a lot of George Niang. Like, it's just going to be what it is in this context. And I hate that that's the incentive structure. I also think there's a lot of teams pretending to be afraid of the apron so that they can make normal cost-cutting, owner-protecting moves to just, like, not spend as much money. So it's like, it's a little of column A and column B, but column B definitely exists.

Yeah, but then on the other hand, you have Devin Booker is now eligible to make $75 million a year. It's like, what kind of league are we creating? Shea just signed for the biggest contract in the history of the league, right? I just don't understand it. Do you think any of this, in terms of like making it impossible for teams to stay intact,

Does it suit our like short attention span TikTok generation of consciousness? Like if teams are going to just turn over every two years, does that kind of suit the way the world is right now? It's a good theory. I'm not sure it's intentional, but we ended up there. Well, but that's I think that's the bigger question.

who's driving this and who ultimately wanted it? Because my theory and what's been told to me over and over again is these are the smaller market teams who are really scared of the Warriors and the Knicks and the Lakers, just being able to blow them out of the water, paying crazy money and making them look inadequate because they don't have the same deep pockets, right? So that leads to whatever we landed with the CBA. But where we really landed was it's impossible to keep

OKC probably has the best chance with those three guys and how they structured these little $8 million. We give extensions. Our seventh guy is going to make $8 million a year. Our ninth guy is going to make $5 million a year. Six man is going to make that. And they've just have figured out a way to maybe pull it off. But think about it. They had to have one of the great watershed trades of all time just to be in that position.

where they got all these picks and two of them turned out to be Jalen Williams and what was the other one? Oh, and Shea. Shea comes in it. That's a generational fluke. That's not happening again. So you look at a team like Atlanta and Atlanta looks like they're in awesome shape right now and they did everything right. They're really, really smart. Well, what happens a year from now? They got to pay Trae Young. I think they have to pay Dyson Daniels. They're going to have to pay Risa Shea.

And they're not going to be able to keep all these guys together. And if that's the goal of the CBA, that's fucking idiotic. Celtics gap year. There's no other way around it. I'm surprised they didn't trade Sam Hauser. I thought that was going to be the last piece. Yeah. And I think that's a good contract. I don't know why Detroit

wouldn't have traded for Sam Houser over what they did with Fontenacchio getting Duncan Robinson back. Why is Duncan Robinson making $16 million a year again? Didn't we already do this? Because Malik Beasley is enmeshed in scandal, I think is the reason for that.

Would you rather have Sam Houser at nine or Duncan Robinson at 16? I would rather have Sam Houser personally. I don't understand that. For a team like Detroit, where part of the reason that team is successful and effective is like there aren't a lot of easy places to just attack. And Sam Houser is like, you know, he's not an all-world defender, but he's a better defender than Duncan Robinson. He's proven to be the kind of guy that when you go at him, he can hold his ground.

I, it's just not going to be the case with Duncan. And so I just think he's been so up and down. I like him, but I thought he was going to be like a, like some of the guys that got veteran minimums or close or even Yaba Selly getting two for 12, which I thought was a really good signing by the Knicks. So he's worth two for 12, but Duncan Robinson's worth three for 45. It doesn't make sense. Yeah.

Which leads me to my next thing, the Pistons, who lose Beasley, Hardaway, Fontenacchio, and Schroeder from last year's team. They added Karis LeVert and Duncan Robinson so far. Yes. I thought they had the assets to make a real move.

to do something and they didn't. And I don't even think they went sideways. I think they probably dipped a level, but it felt, and maybe they believe in Ron Holland. Maybe they live in all Sarah Thompson and Jalen Dern. Maybe they don't want to do the big move yet, but if you don't want to do big, big move yet, why are you doing this Duncan Robinson contract? I just felt like that's a team that should have aggressively gone after Jalen Brown.

And I don't know whether they would have gotten them, but I think that's how they had to think. Like you got to, and maybe Durant didn't want to go there, but that's the other guy you could have thought of. But for sure, I think Jalen Brown, whatever their version of a Siakam trade was that Indiana made a couple of years ago, I think this was the summer to do it. They had weird assets and some cap space and some expirings and they just didn't do it. And I think they're in a worse place. I think they definitely could have made a move like that.

To the extent that one was available, like maybe Kevin Durant just doesn't want to go to Detroit. So they certainly weren't on his short list that was released. Right. Maybe the Celtics didn't want to trade Jalen Brown. Absolutely. And so maybe it's just a matter of like the right guy is not available for us at this time. And so even though Bane was available, he was. But does he level up the Pistons in the way that ultimately I think they want to level up at some point? I don't know that Desmond Bane is a great addition for the Magic team.

ultimately like Detroit is looking for something a little bit different. They are looking for shooting though. And so I think the reason you get into Duncan Robinson is ultimately because you're losing your two most prolific three-point shooters from last season. I'm assuming Beasley does not come back. I guess we'll see if that's not the case. The Beasley stuff is really, did you deep dive some of that about all his financial problems the last five years? It's pretty dark. It's quite dark. I don't think he comes back. I don't think so either. And so if Beasley's out and Tim Hardaway Jr. is out,

now you really need someone to just space the floor. And so maybe it turns into a panic signing as opposed to who do we have to trade to get Sam Hauser per se. But I think what they're banking on ultimately is not just like, will Ron Holland take a step? Will Jalen Dern take a step? It's getting Jaden Ivey back in particular and him taking a step forward feels like a huge component of this. Plus, I think there's enough reason with their young guys to think,

Some of those guys are going to take a meaningful step forward, and it's going to offset what we're losing with some of these losses over the offseason. So you wouldn't have traded Tobias Harris and Thompson?

Fontenacchio and like four of your first for Jalen Brown? Because that probably would have been the trade. Well, Fontenacchio would have been untouchable for me. I never would have traded him for anybody, including Duncan Robinson. Of course Miami gets him. I like that guy. I think he's going to do well. Miami's just adding guys that I really like. Truly. They didn't make my dozen topics I wanted to hit, but they got Yakushunas in the draft.

They turned Duncan in an expiring of Fontenacchio. They have the Rogier expiring. They do. They've mobilized some assets that are all expirings for...

something but they need to continue to mobilize because right now that collection of assets on paper on a depth chart right it does not inspire confidence but I I do like them bringing back Davion Mitchell I thought he had a really nice really nice season overall last year with Toronto to start and then coming to Miami but really really cool to see him like find his footing in the league do you have any stock

I was an early holder, but then I bailed. You know, I bailed when he was having trouble, like, you know, beating out third and fourth string Sacramento Kings guards. But, you know, I'm back. I'm back on board. I'm looking to invest again. One more break. And then we got to talk about the thing I'm the most excited to talk about. Lowe's knows that taking on more projects should be rewarding.

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Not the top topic, but my favorite topic. I think the Atrocious GM Summit might be coming back. Yeah. Who's invited? We have five teams that have just said to the... Basically, it's like the American Express black card where they're just like, yeah, I'm all in. What are the fees? We have five teams that are just like, what are the fees to the Atrocious GM Summit? Because we'd like to order the deluxe package. So...

We have Phoenix, obviously. They've ruined their short-term and their long-term, and nobody knows what the fuck they're doing. So there's one. We have New Orleans. They're zigging, they're zagging. It's like, here's Kevon Looney. He's going to play with Jeremiah Fierce, who's 13 years old. We're trading next year's unprotected first. We're not in like...

You know, the MPJ for Cam Johnson and you get an asset business where they could have done a better version of the trade with Trey Murphy. They're not doing that. They're trading McCollum. They're getting Jordan Poole back. They're all over the place. Nobody can keep track of it. The league is like, who's running this team? What's happening? Did they know they could protect picks? So there's two. Chicago feels like they're being run by an AI engine that broke. Yeah.

And the only thing they put in was, we don't want to pay the luxury tax. Could you suggest some moves for us? Yes. And the AI engine was like, trade Lonzo Ball for Isaac Okoro, even though you already have Patrick Williams.

Do that. Can you make any sense of that roster? No, I cannot. What is that roster? Well, we're still waiting for the Josh Giddey re-signing, which I'm sure is coming at this point. I don't know who else would realistically be able to offer him a deal that would be competitive. If that turns out to be

a really rich above market contract, I would be even more at a loss as to what they're doing. And this is a team I already just do not fundamentally understand the motivations of the moves that they make, except that they are pointed pretty squarely at like, can we be the ninth best team in the Eastern Conference perpetually until the day we die? Can we just go 40 and 42 and not pay the luxury tax forever? You know, everyone has a dream and I salute them for committing to theirs.

In what world would anyone want to pay $29 million a year for Patrick Williams and Isaac Okoro?

Can you imagine doing that in a league where the salary cap, where smart spending has become more important than ever, and this is their idea to do that? And I actually liked Lonzo on that team. Oh, yeah. And for Cleveland, that was a godsend. It was like, oh, cool. Now we can let Ty Jerome go, and we'll just replace him with Lonzo. The most charitable way you could interpret it for the Bulls is we traded for a guy who was just more healthy and available to play than Lonzo Ball has been.

I still like Lonzo Ball better. I still like the guy who actually changes something about your team and the complexion of it versus...

As you said, kind of shorter Patrick. You know what? I actually like Isaac Okoro better than Patrick Williams. I don't know where Patrick Williams fell. I don't know where he fell in your worst contracts draft with Wazenhaus. I mean, it's a real doozy. It does not make any sense at all. He had $90 million for five years. I don't know who they were competing against. And you just had to give him the player option. It was very important that you give him the player option. And then they had that goofy draft where why didn't they do the Derrick Queen trade?

They could trade the 12th pick to new Orleans. It got neurons as first next year, but they never seem to do anything that. So they're, they're a must for the atrocious GM summit. That's three teams, Sacramento going from Fox and Hal Burton to overpaying Dennis Schroeder, who I think this is now his eight team. And I kind of liked Dennis Schroeder. I don't know if I liked him for three years, $48 million or whatever he got. Yeah. And now you just have this expensive roster that, um,

Are you the 11th seed? Are you the 13th seed? What are the things going to happen with this team? Who wants to see all these players together on the same team? And there's a lot of like rumored activity around them trying to basically dump Malik Monk in various trades. Yeah, why? I don't really understand other than there's just like a bunch of guards that they're trying to find minutes for, including, you know, Devin Carter, who didn't get a fully healthy rookie season. So like he's going to get a chance to kind of come back and prove something. But yeah,

This is just like a bad outcome for so many of these guys. Like, I was really hoping post-Bulls that DeMar DeRozan and Zach Levine would get chances with winning teams again. That Zach Levine would go somewhere like Denver and we'd be like, oh my God, this guy really is one of the best shooters in the world. His head is screwed on straight. Like, everything is finally clicking for this guy after years and years in various wildernesses. Has not happened, clearly. DeMar DeRozan could have,

could have held any number of potential contending teams. Instead, he's tasked with like trying to be the third kind of triangulated piece of first with Fox and Sabonis, now with Levine and Sabonis, like pairings that just like do not work and anchor you inside the arc at a time when it just does not work in terms of producing high level offense.

I just, I hope for so much more for so many of these guys. And yet their fate is apparently playing together. It's so weird that they had that. The two seed was all looking good. The Halbert and Sabonis trade, which I disagreed with, but at least like, okay, at least you guys won 48 games. You got some, got some stuff going on. You have pretty clean salary cap and now it's a mess. They have the third worst odds on FanDuel to win the West. Utah's the worst. Portland's second worst. Sacramento,

has worse odds than New Orleans and Phoenix. How about that? And they're just, this is not a team that should be like, you know what might help us? Three years, 48 million for Dennis Schroeder. I wouldn't do that. Anyway, they're our fourth invite. I also would not rule out the idea of the Trailblazers just having a better regular season record than the Kings. That feels fully possible to me. Oh, I would bet on that. I think Portland's definitely going to be better than them. Don't you think? You said they had lower odds, no?

You're right. They do have lower odds. I think I might. That's a proposition that makes sense to me. Why does Portland have lower odds than Sacramento? I don't really know. I kind of like Portland. I think they're going to be really tough to play. They're going to be good defensively. Chemistry will be better. And then the fifth team for the church. So we have Phoenix. We have New Orleans. We have Chicago. We have Sacramento. I'm sorry. Brooklyn's got to go in there. What are you doing, Brooklyn? Can we just go over this for a second? Please.

You're the only team with cap space. Yep. It's just you guys. You have the chance to get to like, what, 80, 90 million if you renounce some guys. Nobody else has anything. This is like, this is a gift. You're basically in a fantasy football draft and all of your idiot friends have spent all their money and you have like $100 left to just go and swoop in and grab everybody. And they don't do that. They basically...

They turn the cap space plus Cam Johnson into Michael Porter Jr., Terrence Mann, the 22nd pick in Denver's 2032 first, which is seven years from now. And I promise you, Sean Marks will not be the GM then. Not to mention the five firsts that they took that I don't think anybody really liked any of them. Brooklyn is like kind of the stealth people around the league going, what the fuck is going on with that team team? I don't know what's going on, but this is a team that

They could have used that cap space. They could have made a giddy restricted free agent offer. They could have done, you know, try to steal Kaminga. There's still some good restricted free agents left. They could have tried to screw Philly on Quentin Grimes. Use the cap space. And where conversely, here's another one I wanted to do tied to this. Like, well, we'll talk about them later. But Charlotte, who I think is now doing it the way you should do it. We're like, let me use our cap space now.

to grab assets and get picks from people. And just kind of, we're just kind of collecting. We're here if you want to get rid of your dumb thing you want to get rid of. We'll hoard your stuff. I don't understand Brooklyn at all. Do you? I do not.

I don't, I mean, look, the shape of the team right now, I don't think was ever going to make a ton of sense. Like they're kind of still too early in their process, which is not what you want to hear, but given their relative lack of ability to add players outside of free agency, it was just kind of, it was what it was. That said, I don't like the opportunities that we talked about. Like using your cap space in that fashion for Terrence Mann does not check out, is not a good use of the market, is not a good way to leverage kind of the one thing that you have at your disposal. Yeah.

Cam Johnson is another one who we've been talking about for years now as a potential trade target for various teams. Michael Porter Jr. is a really good player to the Denver Nuggets. I think he...

a proven champion, a really important part of that run. I don't want to diminish what he did for that team. What does he do for the Brooklyn Nets? Is he potentially a part of the next great Nets team? I find it hard to believe that that would be the case. I think it's probably more likely he plays out this season and then, I guess, is a trade candidate for next year in terms of finding...

And make $17 million more than Cam Johnson, which is a crucial piece of this. Another crucial piece of it. So they don't have a roster that makes sense. They don't have a future that makes sense. They don't have a lot of prospects who it's like, oh, I really believe in that one guy in particular. And that's kind of the worst place to be as a franchise when none of those things are clicking. And then on top of it, it all starts with that weird trade they made to get their picks back where they paid a premium price and traded the Phoenix picks away for

Which there's just no scenario for Phoenix to be good over the next couple of years and instead banked on themselves to suck. Well, is there a scenario for the Nets to be good? Well, but last year they hired a coach who made them so competitive they had to like start turning a major league and they end up with the eighth pick instead of the top five. So this is the year that they're going all in on. We only have four tanking teams. Yeah. That's going to be one of them. But I just like...

Uh, we have a news as we're talking that Mike Brown is officially the next coach, which we were expecting for a while. So Mike Brown and Rick Brunson will now be running the Knicks. Um, I disagree with everything Brooklyn's done. I didn't like their draft. I didn't like how they use their cap space. I would have gone after Kaminga.

I just feel like Kaminga is sitting there. I guess. But even if it's like one year, 25 million, like why not? Like maybe there's something really there. It's just like, why am I doing Terrence Maynard over Kaminga? So I get the 22nd pick. So there's five. Can you make a case for Milwaukee as the sixth after that Dame lower trade? I feel like I need seven teams to have an official Atrocious Jam Summit. To hit the quorum.

Yeah. Is Milwaukee invited now? After the Kuzma and Dame Lillard stretch, but also the Dame Lillard trade itself? Yeah. So you would invite them? The Dame trade, I would have done. I would have traded for Dame and Lillard in the first place. I still see the logic in that. That one you can sell me on. Kuzma, I hated that deal. We were covering it with Waz at the Deadline Pod the moment it happened.

hated it was on an island kuzma island and now kuzma island has been overrun by the ocean yeah he is marooned uh he will we will not be sending the rescue boat for was on kuzma island sorry sometimes you do it you do it to yourself yeah

This one is tough because I think it really does depend on what you think the brief for that job is. If you're the general manager of the Milwaukee Bucks, is your job to retain Giannis at all costs? To retain one of the best players in the world? One of the best players in the history of the league at all costs? Or is it to care about what your team is going to look like three years from now? I think different general managers and especially in different markets see that job differently and see that brief differently. And so from our perspective, this is a rash decision.

crazy, just like completely unprecedented and insane move in terms of the amount of money that they've just added to their books that will be completely dead. But if it works in terms of keeping Giannis, like maybe the results just edge you out of the atrocious GM conversation. It sounds like they're a fun ad. We could argue about whether they did a good job or not. Yeah. Just get them a box lunch, put them at the table and we'll have a conversation.

I would love as my last team, I would love to invite the Toronto Raptors. We need to get to seven. The Brandon Ingram trade seems hilarious now. They trade a first round pick so they could acquire Brandon Ingram and then give him a 38 this year, 40 and then 41. So basically three for 120. Yeah.

And now we've seen Julius Randall signed for 33 and Nas Reed signed for 25. And some guys even going Miles Turner around 25. And I think as an asset, he's in that range so that he's overpaid. They're paying quickly 32.5 million a year. They're paying RJ Barrett, 27.7, 29. They're paying Purtle 19 and 19, and then just gave him an extension for 26, 28 and 30.

And then they gave Scottie Barnes a max. Scottie Barnes is going to be making 51 million in the 2030 season. They've somehow managed to overpay their top five players by 20%. And I think that earns them an invite.

They have somehow wound up on, on Spotrak's like total cap allocations in terms of the commitments for that roster. The Toronto Raptors have the 12th most expensive roster in the league right now. They are just below the Denver Nuggets. They are just above the Sixers, the Magic, the Kings. We were just talking about the Clippers, the Rockets, the Wolves. Like this is a wildly expensive team for a lot of guys. I,

kind of like to sometimes like to like, like there's no one who you're over the moon about save for, I would say like Scotty Barnes is long-term potential. I am bought in on. I think Scotty Barnes is already a very good player will be even better than that.

But as soon as you start making those sorts of financial commitments to Emmanuel quickly, a guy who, you know, it's like, oh, I was really, I really liked him as a Nick. And then all of a sudden you have to pay him $30 million. That's a different thing. As soon as you're importing Brandon Ingram to bail out an offense that had nothing going for it last season, you've kind of lost me. And frankly, I think you've lost the plot a little bit. And so there's a lot of good players here, but they're not good players that I think make a lot of sense together. I say this, look, Raptors fans, I,

I know the late season defense really popped. I know it worked really well. I know there's a vision here for a thing that could happen. Oh, there's some late season look at the Raptors buzz? There was a little bit of like, oh, sneaky like top 10 defense late in the season kind of push. I don't think that's like a lasting foundational element

element of this roster that you can just sort of hang your hat on. Like, this is a team that has to go in and prove it all over again and prove that it can be something cohesive that can actually have any kind of results whatsoever. And for that to be one of the more expensive rosters in the league, I think is a little bit crazy. This team had two playoff guys that we know are playoff guys because we watched them in the playoffs play each other in OG and Obi and Pascal Siakam. Yes. They traded both of them

They turned Ananobi into quickly an RJ Barrett and they turned Siakam into like a number one pick and some crap that they then turned into Brandon Ingram, who I don't know is a playoff guy. Whatever their roster is. So right now in FanDuel, these are teams that have better odds than the one in the East. Cleveland, New York, Orlando, Atlanta, Boston. Don't understand that. Philly, Detroit, Milwaukee, Indiana, and then Toronto. So they have the 10th best odds overall.

to win the East. And I'll book those bets from anybody. Anyway, that's our Atrocious GM Summit. Well, you know what's crazy about this summit is that

almost all those teams have already recently fired general managers. And, you know, try like Masayu Jiri's just out the door. Or are about to. But like, some of those got fired three months ago and the new people who have come in have already taken up the mantle. Really a true passing of the torch moment in terms of like, you know what? We're just going to keep the seat for the New Orleans Pelicans. And one person, like, we're just going to, one is going to follow the other. I'll be quick on the rest of this. So, Cleveland didn't overreact. Hmm.

Congrats to them. I think they're the East favorites. They basically turned Ty Jerome and Okoro Nolanzo. Other than that, trust the process. I don't think teams do this enough. We talked about, Rousseau and I talked about on Sunday night, like in the 80s and the 90s, when you didn't win the title, it was like, oh my God, what are we, and like the Lakers, like trading Byron Scott. Like they wouldn't have done that.

And Cleveland didn't overreact. I think they're still the favorites in the East. I don't know. Are they technically the favorites? Yeah. They would be the team if my life depended on it, I would pick. And I think they're fine. And they just need Garland to be healthy. And, you know, they got, they got sucker punched in the playoffs and it was embarrassing, but maybe ultimately a good thing for them. Minnesota and the Knicks are,

remain legit contenders, which I wasn't positive would be the case as we headed into the offseason, right? And we don't need to belabor this, but Minnesota kept Randall and Nas, and the Knicks got Clarkson and Yabusele. They finally have a coach. I would say, would you agree with this? It's Minnesota, the Knicks, Houston, and Cleveland, one level below KC. And Denver. Oh, and Denver. Yeah, yeah, my bad. And Denver. So that's the next five after...

After OKC, with OKC levitating above everybody. But Minnesota next, Houston, Denver, Cleveland. I think that's the next five. I think OKC is levitating above everybody, but it is cool that Houston and Denver are taking a run, that they are adding pieces, that they are gathering momentum, that they're saying, like, we think there's an opportunity to challenge even a team as great as the Thunder. That's an exciting thing for the league. Right. Well, what's interesting is FanDuel,

And this is betting behavior, right? It's not them putting the odds. They're just trying to get bets. But they have as the top five, Oklahoma City, Knicks, Cleveland, Houston, Denver. But Minnesota is not sixth. They have Orlando with better odds and then the Lakers, which is just Laker fans betting them. But they have Minnesota at 17-1 and Denver's at 9-1. Orlando's at 12-1. So the betting public doesn't seem to believe in Minnesota in the same way. But I think keeping Randall and Nas and...

kind of the nucleus of what they had. I do think they should be in the conversation, right? That's not crazy. I mean, Vegas just doesn't love Terrence Shannon like we do, you know? True. Maybe the Luke Garza thing, maybe they got a little scared off. You know, they lost some really critical pieces there. But honestly, losing Nikhil Alexander Walker is a real thing.

And one of Terrence Shannon. Like, honestly, it would be great if Jalen Clark could kind of round out his game a little bit. It would be great if like the Dillingham minutes turn into anything at all. Well, they have to for what they gave up. He's going to have to play next year. But that's a back-to-back Western Conference, like, finals team. Like, to just write them off, I think would be insane. Like, they did good work in retaining what they had. I have those five. I think Atlanta and Orlando are

kind of lurking as something. And then there's a couple more in there, but two more restricted free agency seems like it's dead or in a coma. We don't even have a giddy or commit like whatever they did with the CBA, they made restricted free agency impossible. So now you basically have to get your deal done a year before you become a restricted free agent because you don't want to be in the position of now, maybe next year, more teams will have cap space. But the fact that

Nobody made a Giddy offer or Cam Thomas offer I thought was pretty crazy.

Is it crazy that nobody made a Cam Thomas offer? Which is like for the way the history of the league is. Yeah, yeah. Like teams year after year be like, oh, Sacramento offered Cam Thomas three for 50. None of those deals are out there. If we don't see Cam Thomas in a Sacramento Kings jersey at some point, like... It'll happen. Then AI has fully taken over. But I think the one... Keeping my fingers crossed. The one I'm kind of watching is Quentin Grimes because yes, like a lottery team making a big run at a Josh Giddey or a Jonathan Kaminga. Like that's historically something that has happened. Quentin Grimes...

Quinn Grimes is in this range where he's like a good rotation player who could help a bunch of different teams, but his market is limited artificially by that restriction. Would not shock me to see him take the qualifying offer and then go next summer and be able to sign with the team of his choosing. Obviously, it was really good for Philly. I think it will be really good for them again. I'm going to end with my 12th one on a positive. Okay. The Charlotte Hornets. New owner, new coach, new front office, a perennial shit show.

You could always rely that just an automatic invite to the atrocious jam summit every year. And now they're basically, they, they're, they're doing AI Sam Presti episode. I got to say kind of playing the, uh, the Presti hits, right? It's like there, it seems like their mode is what would Sam Presti do?

And that's how you end up. You trade Nurkic, you get Sexton in a good second. You trade Meechish for Connaughton in two seconds, knowing he's going to retire. Yeah, sure. We'll take Connaughton for a year. Just adding picks. You trade Mark Williams for the 29th pick in the draft and a 2029 first. During the season, they traded a Koji and Nick Richards for a Koji in three seconds. And then early in this whole thing, they traded Lowry.

or Roger for Lowry in Miami is 2027 first. So they're doing what a bad team should do. Yes. It's like, we'll grab assets here. But now I look at their team and they got LaMelo. They have miles bridges. Who was good last year. Uh, can nipple. They, uh, they have Brandon Miller coming back. Yeah. Somehow the same wrist injury as Jalen Williams who played through the season that, you know, just tanking team versus team trying to win the title. Um,

But I like where they are. And I think that it looks like a smart team to me. And now one more shitty season, one more good draft pick, and then maybe something's there, right? I mean, I think a lot of it's going to bank on LaMelo and how much you believe in him. I kind of do. Like, I'm still a LaMelo guy. I'm still a believer. I think you have to see it. But ultimately, you're right. It's like,

The function of like, are you running this team? Well, it's like, what are the opportunities you actually have? And if you're a team like the Hornets, they are making a lot with those opportunities. They're, they're leveraging them really, really well, given where they are, given the fact that like free agents are not going to be clamoring to come sign with the Hornets at bargain rates. So you draft well, you get as many picks as you can. You take on trades like the Connaughton trade, for example, and, and you live to fight another day and you try to consolidate some of this talent ultimately. And like,

Brandon Miller being good is really important to the Hornets at this point. He needs to pop and he needs to be able to stay on the court and be healthy. And when he's done, when he's been on the court, you can really see it. You can see the outline of a really effective two-way wing player. But he's also got to do it. It really is that kind of roster through and through where, yeah, I don't believe in the five-man, eight-man rotation that they're going to have on the court next season. But I believe in kind of the direction that they're going, which has not been the case lately.

Yeah. I think the league's noticing like, Oh man, we don't have a Patsy over in Charlotte anymore. Um, this'll be like much, we talked about with Trey young. This'll be the kind of, what do we have with the mellow? Is this somebody we should be building around or not? Um, that's all I got. Is there anything I missed?

that you cared about for the summer? I feel like we hit everything. I think we hit the biggest stuff. So it sounds like the thing you're the most interested in is how this LeBron situation plays out. I mean, I'm fascinated. Look, we've already had the start to a summer where...

an all-NBA guard got waved and stretched out of nowhere so that a team that had no room could all of a sudden have tons of room. Let's just get wild and crazy with it. I have no idea where the LeBron market can go. Right now, it looks like there's only two or three teams that make sense. Maybe that won't be the case a week from now, a month from now, three months from now. I have no idea how long it will stretch on, but

Good Lord, the Lakers are in a weird place. Like this is such a clusterfuck for them. They're in a weird place, but also in a pretty good place because they have a new owner and they have Luka Doncic. So long-term, great. Short-term, you're not a contender. You're not. It's not happening. And meanwhile, in Dallas, like I have seen the vision and it is giving me a continued migraine. Like bringing in D'Angelo Russell as rent grade Kyrie. What are you doing?

Was not a fan of that. Why? Not a fan. That was not great. What TV show are you obsessed with right now?

None, unfortunately, because we have a presumed innocent shaped hole in our lives. I don't know where the summer schlock went, but it's not here. And I'm really sad about it. At least we have train wreck poop cruise. What are you talking about? On Netflix. Poop cruise. Okay, pitch me on poop cruise. What's going on with poop cruise? It's a show called Trainwreck, and they did an hour-long episode about the carnival boat cruise where the toilets overflowed and everybody was...

stepping in shit. And it's a riveting hour. You know what? I'm not up on the latest poops. I got to get caught up on that. What's weird is the Brooklyn Nets and the Phoenix Suns were on the boat and a couple of the other teams, Sacramento Kings. Rob Mooney, great to see you as always. Thanks. Thanks, Bill. All right. My dad's here. We just had to say an official farewell to the 2024 world champion Boston Celtics. I don't know if we've talked to you

I don't think we've talked to you since the Jason Tatum went down and all that stuff. The last time we talked to was after game two of the Knicks series. Um, you're, you're paying full boat for your season tickets this year. And now drew holiday and Porzingis and Jalen Brown and Al, not Jalen Brown, uh, Jason Tatum and Al Horford will not be on the team. It's, uh, you know, I, I really thought we had a three-year window and, uh,

I thought that the owners were going to be willing to pay the luxury tax. And maybe if Tatum didn't get hurt, that's what would have happened. But I fully understand the new owners, Bill Chisholm, that with Tatum out the whole year, we're not going to be a contender.

So I understand that Porzingis, he had only one year left in his contract. I understand the holiday because he had three years left at his age and we're not going to be a contender. I really hope that they would re-sign Cornette and Al Horford, but it doesn't look like that's happening. Yeah, Horford's going to Golden State. Yeah, that's what I'm reading. So next year is going to be

You know, we had a great championship year. This year was exciting until it wasn't. You roll with the punches. You and I have talked a lot of times about all the dead years in between championships. But you still go. You still support your team. You hope that they'll be better. Am I looking forward to next year? Not at all.

And I suspect your daughter and whomever will be going and sitting in my seats frequently. But we have no center. And we're missing one of the five best guys in the league. And our new shooting guard is one of the worst defenders in the league.

Yeah, I'll be interested to see what you think of Anthony Simons because you're not a league pass guy, especially with the West Coast team. So I don't think you've seen him that much. I actually went to the Portland game and I saw him. And he did very well against us, actually. His shooting was excellent the night that he played us. I don't remember defense because I wasn't paying attention to that. Yeah.

But, you know, there's so many rumors now that he's going to be packaged. Because from what I understand, they're now a little bit above the second apron again. So somebody has to go. I don't know. Yeah. I thought they would trade Hauser and I was surprised. Rob Mahoney and I just talked about it. I thought he might go to Detroit, but they ended up doing Duncan Robinson instead. But I still feel like Hauser is probably going to get traded, would be my guess.

You know, or who's the other guy we got from Atlanta? Oh, Niang. Yeah, one of those two. You know, their salaries are pretty close. I guess... Hauser's better, though. He's a better player. Yeah, so I'd rather keep Hauser and trade the other guy if there's a market for him. I was excited for the other guy because to hear you try to pronounce his name all year was exciting. Where did you land on? Well...

As you noticed 20 seconds ago, I didn't pronounce his name. Do you want to give it a whirl? No, I'm not looking to. George's Niang? What's his first name? I thought it was George's. Well, he's called George, but George Niang. No, our new guy, first name George. I think he's a possibility to head out.

They don't need much to get under the second apron. Yeah, I'm not worried about it. They also, they don't have to do it until February. So even if they're a little bit over heading in there, they could still. It's going to be a weird team. I mean, you and I had the same concerns about Holiday in the playoffs last year. He lost a step. There's no doubt about it. He couldn't stop. Maybe nobody could stop Brunson, but he certainly was not able to stay in front of him.

I don't understand Tillman. I don't know why he's still on the team. He brought nothing at all. I understand we have no centers, but I'd be looking to bring somebody else in here. And I think that's how they get under the tax. If you trade Tillman, you attach a second round pick to it. Somebody just takes the last service because it's a better a minimum deal. Basically. I just read an article about us having interest in, in a little, little Damon Lillard. Yes.

I mean, his whole salary is being paid for the next two years, right? Yes. Can you see him on our team next year when hopefully Tatum and Jalen Brown are helping? He wouldn't help with the defense, I'll tell you that much. It would be kind of like when we had Dana Barrows 30 years ago. Just somebody coming in and

shooting some threes. To me, I think he's going to be in LA or Portland. I don't think we have actual interest in him. The big thing we talked, Rob Mahoney and I talked about if Detroit had made a run at Jalen, would the Celtics have considered it? Were the Celtics considering Jalen? They're not going to say anything. Nothing leaks out of the Boston things, but were they considering Jalen

this would be the year to make the Jalen trade if you were going to do it. But you and I talked about it before Tatum's injury. If we had gotten bounced out by the Knicks, which still would have been possible, even with a healthy Tatum, Wood Brown would have been the one they moved on from. And after watching awful games from him in the playoffs...

Well, he was hurt though. It came out after the fact that he had a torn meniscus. So I don't think, I really don't think he was healthy.

Yeah, I understand that. You know what's funny about you and Jalen Brown? You've just been watching him for nine years. The thought of an offense revolving around him is going to be hard for you in your late 70s. Well, I've had these guys over the years that have driven me crazy. Tony Allen drove me crazy. Marcus Smart drove me crazy. Jalen Brown, he can't dribble. He can't make three throws. He's

He's a turnover machine. He's a black hole. And sometimes he's great. I don't know what to make of it. I remember Rick Roby was another one way back when that drove you crazy. Rick Roby would come in, just miss two footers. And then we traded him for Dennis Johnson. Well, when you've been in a season together for what, 52 years, I have a list. Yeah. Uh,

I don't want to go through those. I kind of went through it a little bit right there. One of your favorite guys to complain about was Todd Day. I remember that. What was it? One Todd Day season? Well, Todd Day. We were terrible though. Sidney Wicks, Curtis Rowe. Yeah, those are bad ones. But some of those guys are bad because lack of effort. Others are bad just because they make so many mistakes.

Yeah. Well, Jalen's a weird one because he really is one of the best 20 players in the league. But if you catch him in the wrong night or the wrong quarter, he becomes the most frustrating guy you could possibly have. And then all of a sudden he's awesome again. And I like him as an individual. I think he's extremely great. I like what he has to say. It's just some nights he doesn't have it. And it's tough to sit there.

I hope they keep them. I'm on the record. I would love Tatum and Brown, especially now that they're able to get out of this luxury tax hell for a year. There is one more thing I would like to bring up. Yeah. Okay, we have this non-contending team. Maybe we're going to be fifth to sixth seed, maybe fourth. I don't know. No, we won't be in the top four. Okay. We have a coach who's going to have to coach this year.

You know, I think we won the championship based on some extremely great players. And he did fine. This year, the New York series was a disaster coaching-wise. And next year, maybe we'll really see great coaching with a team that overachieves. Maybe. Maybe.

It sounds like you've demoted him to the second row again. No, not yet. Oh, you kept the seat open for him. Yeah. Well, we talked a lot about those first two Knicks games since they happened, which is when they lost the Knicks series. And especially after watching the Indiana Knicks series, when Indiana is just pushing the pace, pushing the pace, trying to use Townsend Brunson against the Knicks, which worked. And then we were going back to

Us walking the ball up and shooting threes with four seconds left in the shot clock, which was like, it was a godsend for the Knicks taking 34 threes in the second half of game one. And it's like literally the one thing the Knicks needed us to do, we did. And you were like, well, we have a coach. Where was he?

Yeah, I was. And you have 20-point leads in both of those games, and you keep walking the ball up and shooting threes and no timeouts, and the players don't change their pace. And there was a lack of strategy. And yeah, did that upset me? Of course it did. I'm not the only one. Yeah. So I don't know. It's going to take a pretty good coaching job this year to get us into the fifth seed, don't you think?

Yeah, I don't see any way they're a top five seed because I think Detroit's probably above them too. And then you move into that Toronto, Miami kind of group. But we can't be finished with our moves. We have no center. Well, so we have Keita and we have Luke Garza, who I think you're going to like. We have no center.

You know, Luke Garza, I liked him in college. I remember you and I before that draft talking about him because he was the college play of the year. Yeah. You know, he's the typical college center who did very well. And then he gets to the pros and he has no three-point shot. He got buried in Minnesota. Yeah. Yeah, he didn't get to play. He's not quite tall enough. He's not seven feet tall. Yeah. But,

The group that we have now cannot sustain a whole season. I don't know what move they make. Maybe there's no move. Maybe this is it. I don't think the only thing I could see them doing is a Simon's trade for somebody who's cheaper, you know, or just something where they shave four or five million bucks off and Simon's isn't expiring, something like that. I don't see anything else happening.

Other than sticking somebody with Tillman and giving them a pick to take the contract off. But I'm talking about a center. I mean, I know Clint Capella. There are no centers. The Lakers can't find a center, much less us. You wouldn't do... If we signed DeAndre Ayton, I think you would... That would be assisted living time. You'd drive you right in there. You wouldn't be able to handle it. Talk about no effort, guys. Portland paid him to go away. No, he's not on my list, but...

Or Lopez. I would have taken a flyer on it. He gives 100%. Yeah, but that was two for 18. We didn't have that. We would have had it if we traded houses. You could have manipulated it to bring in a center like that for a two-year period. Chris Boucher, Larry Nance signed. Yeah, there's no centers left.

Yeah, Abuseli would have been fun, ironically, as a small ball center. But the Knicks took him. Ironically, what did he get? Two for 12. Okay, two for 12. We just signed these two Minnesota guys who stink for a total of 11 million dollars. I don't know if they stink yet. They weren't getting PT. They might be... You don't trust Brad Stevens? Don't be surly. Yeah.

When you and I talk in January about these two guys in Minnesota, remember what I had to say. Listen, I think you're going to like Josh Bernard. He's like a high energy guy. You usually like guys like this. He's like a really tries hard offensive rebounds, flying to the basket guy. He's your kind of guy. I don't know if you'll like Garza. He's like Hugo. He's a high energy guy.

Hugo. This is rough. So we have that. We have the Red Sox. Do you feel better about the Devers trade or no? He hasn't really hit for the Giants since they made the trade. You know, it's a very strange place to be. We have no number four hitter. Anthony's starting to hit a little bit. Yeah. I never wanted Devers to fail in San Francisco. I just don't understand how it all fell apart like it did.

And he was our best hitter. So we lost five straight games and I think we scored like five runs or something. I don't wish him ill, but I wish we had gotten more in the trade. I wish we had gotten a hitter back. Yeah. You know? What's the mood of the city with the Red Sox these days? I think nobody, I think they're...

If you want to have a nice night out, eat a hot dog, you can go to a game, but nobody's expecting them to do anything. There's too many teams ahead of them in the playoff race. And people, the owners, that part's not going great either. Well, you know, that's a long since we went in 2018. The owners have kind of, you know this, we've talked about it. Their philosophy totally changed. They spent a lot of money in Liverpool. The players over there, but

It's like they're very happy. We have the highest ticket prices in baseball, Major League Baseball, for a product that's subpar. And they're relying so much on the youngsters. But we don't have a power hitter coming up. You know, a lot of these, Anthony's not a power hitter. Meyer's not a power hitter.

I like, I admire is really good. I've actually enjoyed watching them, even though every five days Bueller comes in and gives up like eight. I mean, he's one of the worst pitchers we've ever had to the point you feel bad for him. Like it's a, it's really rare. We're starting pitchers where I feel bad for the guy I'm watching.

Well, I read two articles on him this week, and it's interesting. The article in The Globe today was about him, and Cora is keeping him in rotation. And the other article I read was they're hoping he's a trade ship at the deadline. I think they're keeping him in the rotation. If he has one good start,

Yeah. They trade him right away. So they're going to assume that the team they're trading him to didn't see his last 10 starts? Well, maybe. Well, Giolito got shelled like two, three starts ago. But other than that, he's been okay the last seven, eight starts. No, he's been okay. They've really had disappointments with Bello and obviously how his...

Not even back yet and getting lit up in the minor leagues. You know, he made the all-star team last year and everything fell apart. It's hard to understand that one. Tough time for the Red Sox. And then the Bruins, they trade Marshan and he goes and wins the cup with Florida and then resigns with them. But they got the BC kid. You were excited about that.

This year, I was excited about it. The kid they took last year and they passed on, they took the kid that's about 12 feet tall, which is still five, and had the terrible freshman year at BC. They passed on some pretty good players in that draft. This one, they lucked out. They really did. I went, weren't you shocked that Marshan, who's 38 years old, got a six-year contract?

Well, I think they do it so that it allows them to... Yeah, you're basically the first three years and then... So it's front-loaded or... No, I just think he's probably playing two, three more years, but you pay him for six and then if he retires, you get... It seems like there's some short-term cap benefits. That was... Yeah, I'm glad for him. He earned it. He earned it. It's so hard though. He was our captain. He was the guy...

saluting everybody after the game as they went to the gate. It's hard to see that he left. So the team that's the most encouraging right now out of the four is probably the Pats, yeah. Patriots. Because they haven't started yet. And we have high hopes, don't we? I do.

Yeah, when I was able to make bets in Indiana on Fando, I made a bunch of Pats bets. I bet on Brable for coach of the year. I bet on the over nine and a half wins. I bet on them to win the division. I'm all in on this team. Well, the other thing is, we talked about it last year with Washington.

They got Daniels at a poor year, so they got one of the easiest schedules. Therefore, we have one of the easiest schedules this year. We should have a chance at 10 wins, and then you make the playoffs. New coach, easy schedule. We have the QB. They did some good free agent signings. Not just a new coach, but actually a coach. A coach who knows how to coach. That last year, coaching staff was just...

an abomination actually two years in a row. Yeah, it's been funny. We were saying this as it was happening, but now that they've had the mini camps and stuff, and even the players are like, wow, it's nice to have a coaching staff again. Like these little digs left and right. It's hilarious. Well, the other thing was last year, a lot of players were speaking to the press, badmouthing the team and the coaching staff.

uh, Vrabel's not going to allow that. No. I mean, he has a play to do that. That play is gone. And I have to do that in this league. Um, so yeah. So it sounds like the Pats are number one. Well, deep down, are you holding, you holding out hope for the, the Celts kind of hang around and then Tatum comes back in March and,

It's possible. I mean, they already are showing him working out. They had a picture in the globe today. I saw it. Meeting Hugo. He and Hugo setting up a little relationship. I'm happy about it. What TV shows are you watching now that sports has gone to hell? Well, you and I, when I was out in LA last week, we watched the...

The Netflix show. Oh, John Q. No, whatever. Department Q. Department Q. That was really good. That was really well done. Well, I haven't watched much. We just got back from vacation yesterday, as you know. Keep me posted on your TV. You'll go see F1 in the theater.

I'm looking forward. Is it in the theater now? Yeah. Okay. The other one I hadn't seen was Ballerina. I know it didn't get great reviews, but it's my kind of movie. John Wick, Ballerina. Weird summer. Celtics headed for an eight seed. Red Sox season already over. Bruins depressing. And somehow the Patriots have become the team of hope again. Yeah. It's hard.

When you get to the dog days of July and August, baseball, you really like to watch baseball. It's tough. I guess we're going to watch the rookies. I think they bring Campbell back up. Somebody told me that. Well, and then you have your 53rd year of Celtics season tickets. I thought it was really nice of them to give everybody a 20% discount after they got rid of all the... Oh, no, they didn't do that. Yeah. Well, you know, you...

You buy it, you agree to get next season tickets in March, end of March. Yeah, it's a contract. Jason Tatum was still playing in March. Yeah, so I don't blame the Celtics. They didn't know what was going to happen, but I'm glad. Maybe throw some free drinks for everybody a couple times. Are you hearing that we're going to get a discount based on the email? No, there's no way.

There's going to be some grim nights. There's going to be like some Celtics, Washington, Celtics, Charlotte, Celtics, Utah games where the tickets will be about. I mean, we haven't been in a situation like this with the Celtics since probably the year before Marcus, right? Yeah. Right. That was like the last, the last bad team they had was over 10 years ago. I don't know if this team's going to be bad. They still have Jalen. Who's still a top 20 guy. They still have white.

Simons will be able to score. They still have Pritchard. You know, they'll be able to shoot threes. I'm not worried about the bill because I had emailed the Celtics last week that I have a new address and I gave your address to send the bill. All right. All right, dad. Good to see you. Enjoy the summer. Good seeing you last week. Take care. All right.

All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Rob Mahoney. Thanks to Eduardo and Gahal as well. Don't forget, new rewatchables went out Monday night after hours and we got Jaws 2 coming in a week and I'm going to be back 99% positive. I'm going to be back on Sunday with Rosillo unless something crazy happens. Enjoy the July 4th stretch here. Have a great time. I'll see you on Sunday night. I'm gonna sleep there. I'm gonna waste all my space.

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