Revolutionary Questions in Revolutionary Times ft Dr. Larry Arnn
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Hey everybody, Charlie Kirk here live from the Bitcoin.com studio. It's in the Charlie Kirk show. Dr. Larry Arden sits down exclusively with our friends in San Diego. Amazing conversation. We talk about President Trump. We talk about artificial intelligence. We talk about education. We talk about how the whole world is going to change because of AI and what we can do about it. Dr. Larry Arden brings...

Ancient wisdom to the modern problems. And I really encourage you to listen to this conversation intently and text it to your friends. You will learn a lot in this conversation. Email us as always, freedom at charliekirk.com and get involved with Turning Point USA at tpusa.com. That is tpusa.com. Start a high school or college chapter today at tpusa.com. Buckle up, everybody. Here we go. Charlie, what you've done is incredible here. Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus. I want you to know we are lucky.

to have Charlie Kirk. Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks. I want to thank Charlie. He's an incredible guy. His spirit, his love of this country. He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point USA. We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country. That's why we are here.

Dr. Arndt, welcome. Hey, Charlie, the great Charlie. Hi.

Wonderful speech at lunch. Thank you for that. Thank you. I want to continue a conversation you and I are having backstage about artificial intelligence. And you said something important where you said that in the next year or two, people are going to really realize the power of this stuff and its societal and civilizational implications. What do you mean by that? Well, my truck drives itself, and it's not because anybody's writing code anymore.

They show it videos, I mean, out of my particular truck, for example. And it's learning, and it's learning really fast. And it, you know, I've driven it 1,500 miles on it driving itself at night, in the rain, in the dark. It drives better than I do. So that's going to happen, right? But they're training robots the same way. And that means that in a year or two, I'm going to say to a robot...

Like, you know, one of my, my job, I'll tell you how it affects my job. I'm like Charlie. I have a plethora of young people that I can torture. And, and, you know, a lot of them come to work at the college. I might very well be succeeded one of these days by some student of mine. And so, you know, we just beat the tar out of them. But what I asked them to do is not the same anymore.

I don't, like, you know, I try not to say, like, there's some things that I have academic knowledge of. Nobody has an infinite array of those things, but there are some that I have. And so if I'm going to write something or say something, I look up to verify. I learned that from Sir Martin Gilbert, the Churchill biographer. I ask Grok now, and it tells me. And it's, you know, and it reminds me enough. If I'm going to, you know, if I'm going to write it and publish it, then I...

verify, you know, but see, here's the thing. I know how to do that because I didn't grow up in this age, right? I know how to look stuff up. I know to find out whether it's true or not. Martin Gilbert used to say to me, you have a good memory and I have a good memory, but we do not rely upon our memories. Well, what's this going to mean? You know, so the first question, an urgent question at Hillsdale College is what's this going to mean for young people?

And next year, we're going to finalize our plans about that. And what they are is that they're going to have to sit for two weeks, twice in their four years, with a pen and a paper, and write out everything they know. And, in other words, they still have to suffer. With no iPad. Right. No device. That's it. You know, in other words... And see, here's a column. See...

An excellent human being is excellent in intellect and character. Character has to do with the disposition toward the hard virtues, the moral virtues. They are justice, moderation, and courage. Courage is the hardest one. You have to develop that. You have to intend it. You have to practice it. You have to read about it, right?

And then intellectually, you need knowledge. And we are the only beings on earth made to get knowledge. And we long for knowledge. Everybody, he is, you know, when I first met Charlie, there's a rich man, a very fine man that I knew, and he brought Charlie to a lunch. Foster Freeze. Yeah, Foster Freeze, the late Foster Freeze. He was a golden man. And Foster was telling everybody who'd listen how great Charlie was.

And Charlie's 19, right? I never say that to 19-year-olds. And I've had 11 students in my classes who've been clerks on the Supreme Court of the United States. I don't say that about them now, right? And so I didn't like Charlie being flattered. And I thought, it's not good for him, right? I didn't know who he was, really, but I thought, turning point, what's that? And it was new then, I think. It was very new. And the point was...

Charlie did, because see, I'm an excellent judge of kid flesh. You know, it's my line of work. And Charlie stopped. Like he might have been, you know, because he's a big, big deal, you know, and everybody's just doting on him. I mean, they still do. But when I went after him a little bit, and he stopped, and he said, what should I do? And I said, you should learn. And he said, uh...

Okay, how would I do that? And I said, well, you'd need to go to a good college. And he said, Hillsdale is a good college. I said, it is not. It's the best. And he said, and you know, he was, I could see, because, you know, he's this young kid, and he's got these huge aspirations, which, you know, are all around you today, right, the realization of them. And he stopped and

And that means their levels of ambition. And there's an ambition to do a big thing. And beyond that, there's an ambition to get it right. And that's a higher ambition. And young people have to develop that ambition. And they have to develop the capacity to do it. But that's just the young. But we all need to live that way. And so the problem with AI is that it's going to make things easy.

Right. And and so some people will use I mean, like Elon Musk, that guy's crazy. I mean, he's pro family, lots of babies, lots of wives. As far as I can tell, they kind of live in a compound somewhere. I don't know what that is, but he's never going to rest. Right. He's he's that kind. You know, everybody needs to be that kind. And also he needs, you know, if I was going to try to elevate him.

And I may meet him again. I've met him twice. And if I meet him again, I'm going to tell him the Cybertruck is great and an easy life is not the purpose of life. And you show that in your life, but you ought not to say that to others. Sorry, only to interject, the problem then of education and the society is you're right. Things are going to become too easy. And I can see this sometimes when I go to these campuses.

and a student will come up and read their phone when they want to debate me. Have you seen this? And I used to have no issue with this because four or five years ago when they did this, that means that was their writing that they would put into the phone. Now they're coming up with the phone, and they say, well, Charlie, I have to push back, and I will dissent from your view. I'm like, hold on. All of a sudden, I'm like, I know they didn't write this. This is written like a large language model, an LLM. So then I say, put down your phone and talk to me.

You were at UC San Diego. You saw this phenomenon play out. And I don't do it as a way of intimidation. But Dr. Arnn, this is a kid that might get good grades in class because he knows how to navigate chat GPT. And it's a huge problem. If you love them, then you want them to flourish. And that means you don't baby them, right? It's not good for them. If they fall down, then you should pick them up or, in my particular case, get somebody nicer than I to do it. But...

Yeah, and you know, I can tell you, because I have the closest experience, probably more than anybody alive, with highly motivated 18 to 21-year-olds. And you can do anything with them if they have agreed in advance and if they think you love them. And if either of those conditions is not met, there's a complete rebellion immediately, right? Well, you've got to... And see, like I was saying to Charlie...

You know, I'm a really weird guy. I like Donald Trump. And, you know, I might be the only college president who's supported him three times. But, you know, I bear the scars of that and I'm proud of them. But why do I like him? First of all, I like him first because he upstaged me in an event one time in 2015, and it was just awesome the way he did it. And I didn't even know who he was at the time except this celebrity guy. But second...

He gravitates to people who work, and he's always calling on us to work and achieve of our own effort. And that's love, right? He loves people. I believe that very much. I do too. He, I'm, you know, Hillsdale College is doing a series of videos to commemorate the 250th in the White House. We've released the first one. You can find it on the White House website or on our website.

It's about the show. It's cool, right? And it's a great honor to go do that. Really well done. And I began by saying that you have to remember that Donald Trump wants to do something again. And that means it's an act of obedience. It's closer to the politics of Lincoln than of Washington, who made a revolution. Very noble. But Lincoln wanted to do it again, you see. And you can't do something again if you don't know what it is. And that means that Donald Trump, for all his...

What's he like? He's very cocky. He's very quick. We prefer self-confident. Very self-confident. But underneath that, there's obedience. And it's like Charlie. Charlie didn't have to learn anything. But he gave a speech for the college three months ago or something.

And I sat there and watched it with great pleasure because the things he's put together. And, you know, he didn't know those things when I first met him. He's done the work, an act of obedience, of giving yourself to something. See, we all have to learn to live like that and live hard like that.

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Get 10% off my personally curated bundles by visiting byrna.com slash charlie. That's byrna.com slash charlie. You know, when Winston Churchill was young, he's a little bit like Charlie, you know. He didn't go to college. He was pretty smart. He once erupted in a speech in response to a hostile question. What is life for but to struggle and fight in noble causes? You see?

Donald Trump is like that. Charlie's like that. Every serious person has that in them, right? And we, you know, like when J.D. Vance, I've never met J.D. Vance, but Charlie knows him. And I was pulling for him to be the Veep last time because he sort of has a vogue going on in Hillsdale among all the hard men and women who run the place. He goes over to Europe and

And he gives two extremely unsettling speeches. And the one that was simply unsettling was about AI. You have to embrace it. We have to protect our workers. But this is, you know, what? A tool is going to overcome us? What kind of people are we? I like that. The more unsettling was about defense. Because what they thought he was going to do was ask them to get their defense budgets up. And he did do that for about three minutes. But then he just...

offended and frightened them so that they could hardly sit still in the room by saying, it's not clear we stand for the same thing anymore because you're not respecting the will of the people you govern. Well, that's a fundamental issue, right? And that's, I mean, look, this, don't mistake, we're in the middle of a struggle for the preservation of human freedom. And AI is just either it's a tool or

in for the good in that struggle or it is what it's becoming in China a tool of despotism it's going to be one of those two things how can it be a tool for liberty because we know the negative everyone thinks about it terminator or mass control how can AI from education help poor kids in Atlanta better learn how can AI actually make us more free

Well, first of all, you got to, we should get Kimmy, Simi up here to talk about that. She's a school teacher. First of all, the growing of the young is a particular thing, but it's also a model of what the old need. The challenge is to build your own competence, right? And because every one of us, right? Don't you want to be a better person tomorrow than you are today?

And don't you know that to do that, you have to work? And if you don't know that, then you won't be a better person tomorrow, and tomorrow will be a disappointment, and the day after, and the day after. Well, young are doing that really fast, so we have to challenge people to produce. There is a model, I think, operating that way. I know two. You should come visit Hillsdale College. It's a pretty cool place. And we torture each other and love each other.

And it's everybody's job. We have an infinite job. Our job is to learn about God and man and save civilization. We're getting there. But what's it like to work at Tesla? See, I am deeply concerned for our country, and I have been for 50 years, because I see that it's a house divided.

And I just happened to have got the education to understand that, think it's true. Well, if I start noticing that a bunch of tank gazillionaires are going MAGA, I think that's a very important development. And so I started studying them. That's why I own a Cybertruck, by the way. I started listening to them and watching their podcast and hearing their speeches and reading what they write. They don't write much.

And here's the phenomenon, and it's very important. If I'm right, and I claim that I am, the philosophers and saints are the highest, and statesmen are the next, and the builders are third. Statesmen are also kind of builders. The builders are being thwarted, and they're turning against the regulatory state that does that to them. And so it's one reason Donald Trump got elected president, in my opinion. And

And so I've been in that and see that's a sign of the health in the country, that it's still us, right? That those guys, you know, and girls, they start doing that. And I just think that's extremely encouraging. And, and, uh, you know, I know there's all kinds of fights in the administration and Charlie's involved in some of them. I divine from this and that, that I hear, uh,

I would never do such a thing. But I am not. I want to save America. This collection of people in the White House and the best in Congress, they're the most likely to do that. I'm on their side. I do think he wants to put a flippant computer in his brain.

I'm not crazy about that one. No, I'm not either. Because at some point, you can see, and see, he's never, I'm tempted to look it up, but I'll just quote it to you. If you want to know, you know, read who? Read the Apostle Paul or Thomas Aquinas. Read Aristotle. And you'll find things in there that are so beautiful they make you want to cry. They're just lovely to know them. And you can, if you haven't studied your Lincoln sufficiently yet,

if it doesn't make you burst into tears once in a while, because it's sublime, you know. So that's a very high human type. Now, Winston Churchill, same thing. He's awesome, you know. I promise you just read it. So he writes this paragraph in an essay called 50 Years Hence. It's in a book called Thoughts and Adventures. You can buy a paperback. 50 Years Hence is the essay.

And he says, it's about the future. Churchill liked to talk about the future, and he had a great sense of humor about it because, you know, you can never get caught wrong about that. And he says, I read a book the other day that said that, I'm paraphrasing, 15 or 16 millennia, hence, a generation had arisen that had conquered nature. They could live as long as they wanted. They could know much more than we can know.

They could travel anywhere they wanted to, including interplanetary. He's writing this in 1934, by the way. Hitler took over Germany in January 1933. This is what's going on in the world, right? They know pleasures wider than any we can know. What would be the good of all that to them? What would they know more than we know about the answers to the simple questions? Why are we here and what are we for?

It is the persistence of these questions that gives the best hope that all will be well. That's the human condition, see? Animals with immortal souls, facing those questions. And our living well consists in facing them well. With a sense of God, because God is the perfect being, implied by any perfection we have above the other animals,

and also implied by our imperfections. So if you're not doing that, you're not living well, and machines can't live like that. It's not their problem, right? So we can't be replaced by them, but we have to. Do you know that George Washington, a very serious young man, he wrote down and memorized 112 rules of civility.

And there are things like don't chew with your mouth full, don't stand too close to people when you talk to them. There's 112 of them. The last one is labor to keep alive in your breast the celestial fire known as conscience. You see? And that's what education is about because that's what life is about for every one of us. And so these tools, we will use them

You know, I'm in the world conquest business, just like Charlie. I mean, you know, Hillsdale College has gotten to be very big. It hasn't started growing yet, right? And we're going to teach. As I like to say, we're in the world conquest business, and teaching is our weapon. It's lethal, you know. But we're going to use AI like crazy to do that. But in the doing of it, we're going to be saying the advice right.

that we give every student, including Charlie Kirk when he was 19. You have to suffer, learn to like it.

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So you say that we're in the midst of a struggle comparable to the Civil and the Revolutionary War. Explain that more. Well, so in classical philosophy you learn that if you want to understand any being, animate or inanimate, you have to look to the four things that cause it, because there are four things that cause every being to be a being, and those four things are the material cause—this is made out of metal and glass—

The efficient cause, somebody made it, Apple made it in a factory somewhere. The formal cause, that's what it looks like and how it operates. It operates as that. It's an iPad. That's a phone. Same kind of thing, really. And the final cause, what is it for? Or to put it another way, what is the love that produced it?

The most important of the four causes is the formal and the final. Now, apply that to America. The final cause of America is stated in the Declaration of Independence. And all it says, and it's very beautiful, it's the most beautiful political document of all, it says, there's a thing that's a human, and it is entitled to be ruled only by its consent and in the direction of the rights pertaining to the human being.

Every human being. No king, no slave. You see, that's what's breathtaking about it. It appeals directly to the nature of things, right? And the final cause of the United States of America is to realize that for everyone. Now, that final cause is contended now. Now it's not, you know, what does modern liberalism think the final cause is?

It is to perfect the society according to whatever criteria we choose. And that means government is no longer a thing working in line with our consent toward our rights in nature. Now government is a thing that works upon us to transform the society. So the final cause is in dispute. But the formal cause is the Constitution.

It's the way the thing operates and the way it looks, right? When the government of the United States does something as a government, it does it in one of three places, and those are the first three articles of the Constitution. Well, the formal cause has been revolutionized too, right? So now the laws are not made in the Congress.

The laws are made in a controversial number. Scholars can't agree on how many independent agencies, independent of what? Are they independent? You see, us? Yeah, that's what it means. And the government now consumes, it's up from 12% in 1930. Now the government handles 51% of the resources in the economy.

Plus, it has centralized it radically. That is to say, 60-some percent of the 12% in 1930 was in cities and counties and towns. Now that number is 18%. 23% was in the federal government. Now that number is 63%. So we've taken money out of the economy, and we've centralized control over it, and it proceeds now in a different way by detailed, unreadable rules.

So the form, it doesn't function the same way. And that means that it's a fundamental dispute. It's a house divided just as much as the house divided is slavery a good thing or not, which is Lincoln's problem, or George Washington's problem. Is the king born to rule us by right, or is no one so born? And what's the question today? The question today is, shall we be governed?

by our consent and toward our rights, or are we subjects of an engineering project to remake the society? And play that out. Do the will of the people with the unelected judges, for example, these national injunctions. Yeah, so that's... The perfect example of this. See, that's very fundamental. And it's like another sign that we're in a time of...

a revolutionary time, is that these questions come up that are as long as there's been law. So habeas corpus is Latin, present the body. And the basic structure of the Constitution is provided by there being three separate branches. And in the Declaration of Independence, by the way, God appears four times. Once is each branch, and one is the creator, the founder. And the lesson of the Declaration is only in the hands of God would you combine all those branches. So habeas corpus means...

If an executive reaches out his hand, grabs you by the neck and says, you got to do what I say, he's got to haul you in front of a judge who's independent of him to make the judgment in your particular case. And that's fundamental to constitutional law and English common law. Well, somebody lets 10 million or 12 million of them in here and gives themselves security cards, a lot of them, and got a plot to let them vote and puts them on benefits and

And now you can only get them out one at a time. And the particular law that Trump has appealed to, the Alien Enemies Act, was passed in 1798, one of four laws called the Alien and Sedition Acts. And those laws destroyed, and it's the only one of the other three had sunsets on them. But this one didn't and has never been repealed.

But that's the law that John Adams, president, fostered when Congress passed. Alexander Hamilton, secretary of treasury, resisted it. And in 1800, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison had resisted it and started their own political party. And it destroyed the Federalist Party. They never won another. They founded the country. And then they never won another election. And that means this is a fundamental fight.

Now, think about it, though. Here's what's different from the old rule of law. The power of judges is to decide the case between the parties, right? That particular thing. So the first thing is these district judges issuing nationwide injunctions that stop federal policy, that is

Hardly happened at all before 1960. It's unprecedented beyond belief. Yeah, and since the 60s and every decade since the 60s, there's been more of it, but never so much as in the last three years. So that's not what judges do, and that means that... So here's what the cut... So first of all, this is just a massive overreach, right, by these district judges, and it means federal policy's got to stop.

But that means you can never get those people out, and that means they'll be here forever. And the next time somebody gets in who doesn't want to mind the border, we'll get a bunch more. And that means, then, that the people is not anymore in control of who the people is. That's correct. See? That's fundamental. I mean, because you can't have consent of the governed. You don't have a country at that point. Unless you have a people, right, who are defined, and they're in control of who joins them.

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First of all, I think the Congress should get off its duff because it can pass an ordinary law by a majority, and Donald Trump, I imagine, would sign it that says that district judges cannot stop. And the law could be that long, right? And in Article 3, what it says is,

The judicial power shall be vested in a Supreme Court and such subordinate courts as the Congress may create. And then it says that the jurisdiction, the original jurisdiction of the Supreme Court shall be, and there's a list of things, about four things, and such appellate jurisdiction as the Congress shall define. And that means they have complete power over that.

They should stop that right now. And why they don't, it's a mystery to me. And just to understand that in different words, the injunction is usually just for the district that the offense occurs in, if there will be an injunction at all. So Abrego Garcia, okay, then just enjoin that in Maryland. Instead, they do a nationwide injunction. So something that happens in Maryland then applies to the entire country. So they're able to judge shop.

to their friends that they put on. So Biden puts a couple radicals and then a couple judges just take turns in joining the entire will of the people. And that's why what Dr. Arnn is saying is the most important thing. And we talk about this on the program all the time. Who's actually in charge of this place? That's a different way of putting it, isn't it? It even goes a step further. That's true, but go a step further. If Abrego Garcia gets in front of a judge and the judge says...

Bring them home. Well, first of all, that's demanding a positive action by the President of the United States, and there's a limit on how much of that they can do. That's right. But the second thing is, let's say the guy's in front of him in the court and says, let him go. Well, the government can appeal, but if he's in front of the judge—

You've got to let him go. But that doesn't mean the next court over in the same court building dealing with different cases at the district level. That's silly. And so you don't really need to say just in that district. You need to say...

for those parties that get in front of him. That's right. The case should be enjoined. That's it. That's it. Not the topic. And see, the model for this, by the way, because this is, you know, I think this may happen this summer. You know, history is interesting. So the Republican Party is born with a plan and it

cracked the code in the slavery crisis. Because in the Constitution, the federal government has no power to interfere with slavery in the states where it exists. And not to have that power, by the way, because local things being local is fundamental to the constitutional system. And so what are we going to do about it? Because slavery is awful, right? And so what they did forever, from 1820 until 1854...

1820 is the Missouri Compromise. What they did was kick the can down the road. But then Kansas and Nebraska come along, 1854. They pass an act. Stephen Douglas, Democrat, Lincoln's main opponent, he comes up with the idea that it's not a federal matter. We should let it be decided in the states. Each state, Illinois, New York, any of the territories decide for itself. Well,

That turns out not to work because they're trying to settle Kansas and Nebraska. And see, that restless energy in America, you know, to get some land, build something, you know, that's America, right? And so they're going, right? That's one of the causes of the American Revolution, by the way. The king drew a line west of the Appalachian and said, you can't have any land beyond it. That's one of the reasons we had the American Revolution. So...

And slavery is not the kind of thing where, you know, it turns out that although the claim was by the Confederacy, the slaves like their servitude, they were always trying to get away. And that meant you had to have a police state to keep them. The Alabama Slave Code is in our Constitution Reader, and it provides that every free white male, slaveholder or no, has to ride posse one night a month looking for runaways. So...

People start rushing to Kansas, and the pro-slave guys start taking their slaves, and they take guns, and they're shooting people, and they put in a phony constitution to make it a slave state, and that stunk to high heaven, so they had to repeal it. So now, what the Republican Party did was it figured out that we don't have power over slavery in the states where it exists, but we have municipal authority in the federal territories...

which at that time was most of the Union. And we will forbid slavery from going there altogether. I will tell you that I'm proud that the two people who wrote that first are named Edmund Fairfield and Austin Blair, later the Civil War governor and lieutenant governor of Michigan, members of the Hillsdale College faculty. So we were there, you know. And that was going to crack that nut.

But then the Supreme Court of the United States ruled five to four, led by a man named Roger Taney, the most notorious of all our Supreme Court justices, he was Chief Justice, that the federal government does not have power to do that. And that's rather parallel to the situation today because the Republican Party was born to do a thing and a court says that strips the heart out of your platform. And today,

Donald Trump says, gets elected saying, we're going to control the border and we're going to send those people home. And the courts are saying, you can't do that. So how do we resolve it without a war? The answer is, you read, because it turns out to be handy, that Abraham Lincoln addressed this at length and brilliantly in a series of speeches, especially the one on the Dred Scott decision. And what he said was...

It's a divided court. The decision was that Dred Scott, who'd been taken into a free state, remains a slave. And Lincoln said, Dred Scott remains a slave. Highest court in the land has said so. Sorry about it, but it's true. On the other hand, if a divided court settles the question for all time, then the people shall have ceased to be their own rulers. And that means that Donald Trump will probably have to find a way to go ahead.

But he shouldn't do this very much. I heard an important MAGA guy whom I admire, I won't say who it was, say the other day, as an example to Donald Trump that Lincoln shredded the Constitution. Well, he didn't. And also, he never said that because we need the Constitution. And so Donald Trump should have a powerful constitutional argument

why in the executive authority he can continue, maybe under this Alien Enemies Act. But that's what the fight is about. And remember, we all need here the rule of law. I don't want Joe Biden, you know, I mean, Lord, it makes me mad. Congress is talking about taxing college endowments.

Well, first of all, that's a transfer of wealth from private resources into the public, and that's the wrong direction. And second of all, I don't want them taxing mine. And I'm the only one that doesn't take the money from the government that has enough endowment to pay the tax right now, and they're talking about increasing it. Well, that's maybe that special pleading. It is, partly. But also, it is the wrong direction. Just don't give them so much money, right? That's what's being effective right now. Withhold the money.

So the point is, however, I don't want Joe Biden or Kamala Harris or whatever the next one is with the power to take my tax exemption or to tax my endowment.

We all need the rule of law. And I support Donald Trump because I believe he is standing up for that. And he should be double sure to make that plain all the time while he's very resolute in using the executive power. Well said. Dr. Arnn, thank you for your time. Everybody, Dr. Arnn, thank you. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Email us as always, freedom at charliekirk.com. Thanks so much for listening and God bless.

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