Sunday Hang with Clay and Buck - Jun 29 2025
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Buck, I wanted to play this because I was one of the people that probably went after her the most aggressively on this. And it feels like Michelle Obama is still trying to act like she wasn't a diva for refusing to attend Jimmy Carter's funeral. Have you seen this?

She's been addressing it on her podcast that no one is evidently listening to. And she made herself out to be the victim for being unwilling to go to Jimmy Carter's funeral. And listen to this gobbledygook from Michelle Obama, who I would argue is probably the most overrated person ever.

in all of America. This is interesting. Yesterday, I argued that Patrick Swayze... Is Michelle Obama the most overrated person in the world by Clay Travis? That's going to get some attention. Yes, she is the anti-Patrick Swayze. Patrick Swayze, the most underrated 1980s actor, for those of you who were listening yesterday in the third hour of the program.

Michelle Obama, the most overrated person in the world. I find her to be very unlikable. And since she has left office, I find her to be, frankly, insufferable even. Have you ever read her Princeton thesis? Oh, God, no. You would... I have. I have. It's that bad? You would...

Yeah, because remember, thesis, you could go find my thesis. I'm not saying it was very good, but, you know, it was on like basically the communists have taken over and using speech codes. I told people mine. It was the burning of Chambersburg, Pennsylvania. Remember the Civil War nerd for my history honors?

I want the video of you. First of all, we know that out in the battlefield doing the reenactments, you're playing the fife because it's the closest thing to a flute. I don't know if they had fifes in World War II. Now, I could play the fife in the Revolutionary War.

We're having all the 250th anniversary. They didn't do Fife in the Civil War? I think they had moved on. I think the technology was such that they had moved on from the Fife by the 1860s. Oh, man. Do people still play the Fife now? I don't think it's still popular. We have some Civil War reenactors. What woodwind instrument were they playing out in the field in the Civil War? Or did they abandon the woodwind? I think they had real flutes by then.

Well, the flute has keys and stuff. I don't think you would take that out. That's going to be tough to clean. I think they had them. I think they had the flute in the Civil War. By the way, what about the... Is it insanely brave or insanely dumb? Sometimes they overlap.

Can you imagine being the guy who was in the military that didn't have a gun and just played the flute while people were shooting? I thought about this before, like to be the drummer boy in the revolution or something. And I'm like, I want a musket. I want like a backup musket. I would not be, you know, holding the regimental colors. It sounds awful.

Holding the regimental colors was also the flag bearer is like a big deal. I get the flag guy because the flag guys, they needed to know where. Yeah, I know, but you're a bullet magnet if you're the flag guy. You're like walking around with a big target up in the air. Oh, yeah. Well, I'm not saying I would do it, but I'm saying at least the flag guy had to be super brave. Like, I can see the use of.

Why did they have the flute guy? Like, why not just give the flute guy a gun and play less instruments? Clay, you know the answer to this because when it comes to a battle, what gets you as fired up as some groovy flute tunes? Nothing. I think the flute...

I think the flute was in high power by the time we're talking like Battle of Gettysburg. I think it's probably the peak of flute playing anywhere. Like the flute guy in the... Flute guy back in the day in the camp...

was the star of the military camp in 1860. What else are you going to do? Well, gambling. A lot of gambling, I bet, with cards. Probably some drinking. I've heard rumors about moonshine being a thing. Probably a little bit of alcohol consumption. But in terms of sheer entertainment, the preacher and the flute guy

And the flute guy was way less judgmental and made you think about dying less. So I bet he was the most popular. So I can turn us back from this digression that it's my fault. Some of our Civil War super nerds, you and Clay, the secret society of Civil War super nerds that you guys all belong to, let us know what the instrument situation was in that era. Because we all think of the breeches and the fife and the drums for the revolution, but were they just not playing music out in the battlefield the same? Maybe they just...

The rifles were accurate and far enough at that point that you really didn't have as much of the music out. I don't know. I don't know. I'm trying to think back now. According to producer Ali, who's using chat GPT for what it's worth, flutes played an important role in communication and boosting morale during the Civil War. They were used to signal daily routines like waking up, marching or going to bed. And also, as I just said.

provided entertainment. It's probably the peak of the flute influence in American culture was right then and there. I mean, so the flute player on the battlefield was a badass who was responsible for morale of everybody else. So the flute player was kind of like the Rambo of his era, let's be honest.

I hope the flute guy didn't have to be involved in the full charge. I hope they were like, hey, flute guy, you can stop, you know, 600 yards from the ramparts. Because can you imagine the flute guy just walking into cannons? I mean, things got really rough. I just finished my Grant Chernow biography, right? And so I've kind of gone through the Grant campaigns. And obviously when it would get hand-to-hand, somebody at some point probably got beaten senseless by a flute. That actually happened. It'd be a tough way to go.

By the way, if you had to pick somebody to fight hand-to-hand, I think I'd pick the guy with the flute. I don't know. If I'm there in the ramparts and you've got a guy coming over with a saber, the guy coming over with a bayonet, I'm going after flute guy. Yeah, the drummer's got pretty strong forearms. I don't think you go for the drummer. I think you go for flute guy, for sure. Can you imagine when they're sitting around after the battle, they're like, would you know what happened to Timmy? Flute guy got him. It was nasty.

Took a flute to the head. Timmy got taken out by the flute guy? Yeah, the flute guy was tougher than we thought. Like, just totally hit him with a two-by-four. The flute guy probably got sick of people making fun of his instrument, and he went berserker rage out there on the battlefield. It's like it would be the, you remember when Scarlett in Gone with the Wind, she married the guy, and then he died of the disease before he got out to actually fight in the battle? Do you remember that? She really liked, spoiler alert, Ashley.

No, sorry. She liked Rhett Butler. No, Ashley Wilkes. I can't remember. I'm getting confused now. I love trying. I'm putting something out there right now. I have never seen Gone with the Wind, which is probably crazy. I know. Isn't that the most successful movie of all time? I think so, yeah. If you add up the dollars for inflation and all that stuff. Can we reverse to Michelle Obama? I think she liked Ashley Wilkes, and then Ashley was with Melanie.

And then she ended up with a guy and the guy she married, spoiler alert, it's been 100 years, but spoiler alert, he dies in camp. He doesn't even make it. It's like getting killed by the flute guy. You can't die before the battle even happens. I got to take your word on all that because I haven't seen the movie.

I'm going to reverse this now because we started this conversation. Somehow we got to who is the member of the military band that you want to fight during different eras. The flute guy. Flute guy, clearly. But Michelle Obama, unlikable, least, most overrated person. Her thesis was basically a big whine about how poorly she was treated at Princeton is sort of the idea.

Yeah, and this one she's whining because people were upset because she didn't do the right thing and go to Jimmy Carter's funeral. I think if you're a first lady or you're a former president, the least you can do, the absolute least you can do is just show up and sit at the funeral to show respect for America. Michelle Obama would not do it, and she says she's the victim because people were too tough on her for that choice. Listen. My decision to skip the inauguration

you know, what people don't realize or my decision to make choices at the beginning of this year that suited me were met with such ridicule and criticism. Like people couldn't believe that I was saying no for any other reason that they had to assume that my marriage was falling apart. Right.

You know, it's like while I'm here really trying to own my life and intentionally practice making the choice that was right for me. And it took everything in my power to not do the thing that was right or that was was that that was perceived as right. But do the thing that was right for me. Hmm.

That was a hard thing for me to do. I had to basically trick myself out of it. And it started with not having anything to wear. I mean, I had affirmatively because I'm always prepared for any funeral, anything. I walk around with the right dress. I travel with clothes just in case something pops off. So I was like, if I'm not going to do this thing, I got to tell my team I don't even want to have a dress ready. Yeah. Right.

Because it's so easy to just say, let me do the right thing. I mean, does she think she's the good guy here? Being an adult, I watched this last night, Buck, and I sent it in to producer Greg.

Being an adult means that you often do the right thing even when you don't want to do it. That is the sign, I would argue, more than almost anything else of maturity and becoming an adult. Not doing the thing that you might prefer to do because it is better for you to make the choice that is better. And she said, it took everything in my power not to do the right thing.

Maybe that's a sign that you should do the right thing. If it takes everything in your power to convince you to do the thing that is not right, maybe this is like the whole concept of I'm going to live my truth. Well, there is no your truth. There's the truth, and you either live by it or you don't. You don't get to define truth. You can make your own opinions, but this whole universe of it took everything in my power to not do what was right is an actual quote she said.

Well, I just think we should remind Media Matters that Clay's quote of the day so far is Michelle Obama, most overrated person in the world.

Most overrated person in the world. She's the, and by the way, I hope they get the full headline right. Most overrated person in the world. And she's the anti-Patrick Swayze, who is the most underrated person in the world, in my opinion. Make sure you get that headline right. Clay Travis says Patrick Swayze underrated, Michelle Obama overrated. And somehow that's going to be racist. Of course, Clay Travis thinks the white man is underrated.

And the black woman is overrated. This is what happens. MAGA world. It's just she's kind of. Can I say it? I think I can say it. It's kind of a kind of a bitch and not a very likable one. Frankly, you can use that word. Buck just bucks. Now he's really nervous. She's she to me, not going to Jimmy Carter's Carter's funeral and then turning yourself into the victim. She's the bad guy. She's the bitch here.

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Dana Perino of Fox News. You all know her. She's got a book that just came out this week. I wish someone had told me the best advice for building a great career and a meaningful life. And perhaps we'll even get her to weigh in on flutes versus fives and other fascinating conversations today on the show. Dana, thank you so much for being here. Hey, I thought you were having me on to talk about the NFL draft.

Oh, no, that's my area of expertise. Maybe you and I can do a whole segment where we discuss the draft because Clay had to tell me that this was even happening, so I had...

Zero idea. Actually, I love the idea. Dana reads sports is one of my favorite parts of Fox News. I love the idea of Dana and Buck try to figure out sports-related issues. You guys, with no help, just come together and try to determine some sports-related conclusion.

I got to tell you, I really loved the, I love watching the NFL draft because I like watching all the people, like in the families and like their excitement. I think that's so fun. And live tweeting the draft is one of my favorite things to do. So I'm going to make sure I'm doing that tonight. Like who wouldn't want to live in Arizona? That sounds fun. They got cute uniforms too.

Yes, I'll just tell you, I've actually never seen the draft. So I think we've established that Dana's knowledge, Clay, of this exceeds mine substantially. I've never watched an NFL draft in my life. So maybe tonight will be my first time. Dana, tell us about about the book a little bit here. I mean, you have a you've had a huge career. You were White House press secretary under Bush. Now you're at the five Fox doing all this amazing stuff. What's the book telling everybody out there?

So it's called I Wish Someone Had Told Me, The Best Advice for Building a Great Career and a Meaningful Life. And I'd done a book before called Everything Will Be Okay. And actually, I remember you all had just started your show together.

And when that book came out, you had me on and it was such a fun conversation. I remember exactly where I was standing and where we did that. And that book was really targeted to young women going through their quarter life crisis. This book is post-COVID and it is not geared just to young women. I made it much more broad based. And also because I have advanced in years since when I left the White House, a lot of

A lot of people that I mentored back then are still coming to me for advice and they've become executives, moms and dads. They are looking for the next step in their life. They're making big career transitions. And so I realized I didn't have all the answers myself. I interviewed over 40 people. Many of the people here at Fox News, like Gutfeld, Harold Ford Jr., Jesse Waters, Sandra Smith, Jimmy Fallon, you name it, they're in here. But also like my college roommate, my husband,

And Dierks Bentley, that's what I was thinking. Of course, I was thinking of Nashville. I'm thinking Clay Travis, Nashville, Dierks Bentley. To talk to them, everything from how to start, how to get your foot in the door, how to get a promotion, how to be...

intentional with your time in a work-life balance and I know buck you're a new dad and yes all of this is I'm sure you'll be able to write a book of advice for dads anytime soon oh I would love that but I have to tell you Dana as I'm talking to you it's always reassuring when I find out that my wife is actually listening to the show and

She texted me and says, make sure you tell Dana that I got a lot out of her book, Everything Will Be Okay. So Carrie Sexton is a fan of book one and now will be a fan of your most recent book, I am sure. Your wife is so lovely. Well, you know, I love hearing that. And one thing I did find out, guys, is when Everything Will Be Okay came out, it was a big success. Everybody loved it. But there were younger guys, especially around here at Fox, who were like, what about one for us?

And there's an insatiable need of young people who they really want to be successful.

And they're just looking for us to give them the blueprint. And we don't have the answers, of course. One of the best things that I've learned and that I could pass on is that I really worried away my 20s for no reason. I was so trying to plan out my life. And everything that happened great in my life is not because I planned it. And if you are an educated American, you already won life's great lottery. And so all you have to decide is how hard do you want to work.

I think that's so well said and thanks for coming on Dana. I had a professor at Vanderbilt Law School, Larry Soderquist, who has since passed, but he was an incredible business professor.

And his big thing to us when we were in law school, and I'm sure there's some kids out there that are going to grad school or you're going to take the bar exam soon coming up this summer. And he said, you are already set. He said, you guys have done the hard work of getting into law school. He said, the question you have to decide going forward with your legal careers is,

is how do you want to work this law degree? He said, but you're never going to be homeless. You're never going to be hungry. The big concerns in life you have taken care of, and you should think about that more than you do, all of you. And I thought that perspective was super important, and I think it reflects upon what you said, where there are a lot of kids out there in their 20s. They get out of school. They get out of grad school. They have these quarter-life crises. I had one myself.

and they wonder what else is out there. And I think this is an important lesson that you're trying to teach them is that, one, you're still going to be trying to figure out a lot of things when you're in your 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s. Nobody has all the answers, but you're probably going to be okay. Oh, absolutely. And one of my favorite mentors was President Bush. And I remember he would talk about the importance of not being so risk-averse that America was built on people willing to take a risk.

and to be pioneers. And I think about Elon Musk, right? Like he takes risks all the time, like landing rockets on chopsticks. But because he was able to, he was willing to take a risk, you can get great reward. And I remember I was really hesitant to start my own business after I left the White House because I had a million reasons that were stupid, really looking back. And the president said to me, ask yourself this, what is the worst thing that could happen to you if it fails?

So I sort of hemmed and hawed for a minute. And he said, so you're telling me the worst thing that could happen to you, an educated American woman who was the White House press secretary, starts her own business, say it fails. And the worst thing you have to do is go back and work for another PR firm. That's the worst thing. And he said, I'm not persuaded by that. And that's really helpful to me. I learned from Dr. Samantha Boardman, when people are dealing with anxiety, and of course, we all do. And also we're surrounded by young people who have a lot of it.

You ask yourself, what's the worst thing that could happen and what's the best thing that could happen? And usually what happens is somewhere in the middle and it can calm you down pretty quickly. Yes, I think there's an old quote from one of the great Stoics that we suffer more in imagination than reality. It might have been Seneca or it's one of them. So it's a version, you know, Dana's updating it for the 21st century, but this is very true. When I interviewed him for this book, Jesse Waters talks about the Stoics as well in this book.

Well, Jesse Waters and I are apparently brothers from another mother. I had no idea. Fun fact, Jesse doesn't even know this, but maybe he was in, I think it was like a English 101 class at Trinity College with my older brother at one point, to give you a sense of what a small world it was. Then Mason transferred and went to a different school. But yes, Jesse and I have been...

Yeah, Jesse and I have been ships passing. Mason assures me he might have popped his collar, but he was a very nice guy. But yes, we've got Dana Perino with us right now, and she's got a new book out, which you guys should all check out. And her books have been huge successes up to this point. So if you're looking now for the people out there who are going to be grabbing this book, if there's one thing that you want them to really take seriously,

out of it today or rather one thing that they would read and you hope they could apply to their lives as soon as possible Dana what would that be? Well I think we've covered a lot of it and especially what I'm hoping is that when people read this they will realize they don't need to worry as much. One of the reasons that you seek out a book like this is because you're trying to get some answers to things that are bothering you. So I'm hoping that that is true but I would also pass on this advice. Most of the mentees that come to see me they are definitely interested in professional guidance.

but they also are looking for meaningful personal lives. They would love to meet somebody. They want to get married. They want to have families and they want to find a work-life balance that will allow them to have a great, wonderful, meaningful life. And,

My experience was unusual. I met my husband on an airplane 28 years ago, and there's a million reasons why we might not have met or that we could have talked ourselves out of it. But choosing to be loved is not a career-limiting decision.

It actually made all the difference for me, and I'm hoping that young people can take that away and realize that investing in yourself and a commitment is a great way to enhance your life and your career. I've got to wait. I've got to reverse for a second here. Take us into this. This is a great story of romance. You met your husband on a plane. What was the first move here? Did he spill his peanuts or his seltzer in your lap? How did he get this going?

Well, okay, so it was 1997, so let's go in the way, way back machine. Nobody had phones, nobody had AirPods, okay? So I was carrying a book, I was working for a congressman, I was coming back from Denver, going Denver, Chicago, Chicago, D.C. And I was on an American Airlines flight. I almost missed the plane because it was my first time driving out to the new Denver International Airport, which might as well be in Kansas, it's so far away. That's accurate, yes. So...

The last two people to get on the plane were myself and this guy. And I sat down in the window seat and he said, would you like me to put your bag up above? British accent. Strong move. Strong move. Yeah. Accents are helpful. No wedding ring.

handsome and he had a book called the tailor of panama by john lecarré i said oh how did i said do you like that book so we started talking about books and then and for two and a half hours we talked for a long time i remember asking him what do people in europe think about bill clinton and he said they think he's a clown and i was like oh wow we're going to get along great um

But then I remember looking out the window and saying a prayer to God that I know I asked you to help me find someone, but he's much older than me. He lives in England. My career is on the right track. I didn't think I would meet somebody on an airplane, but I couldn't eat, sleep, drink, concentrate, anything after I met him. And about six weeks later, we had our first date when he was back in the States, and

in New Orleans and six months later I moved to England 28 years ago. What was the reaction when you told people, I'm just kind of curious, hey, I'm going to move to England. I met a guy on an airplane.

Okay, so you hit the nail on the head of one of the reasons I wrote the book because one of the things I worried about in my 20s was how am I going to get a job? How will I succeed? How will I pay my bills? Then how am I going to meet somebody? Then what are people going to think about me for wanting to be with this man who is much older than me, lives in England, and that I'm leaving my job and career to go live in England and who knows what's going to happen to me?

And I worried myself to death. And a woman, a family friend said, don't give up on this chance to be loved. Can I throw something in there, Dana? One superpower that I've learned is to not care what people think who don't matter to you. You know what I mean? I know, but you know what is so interesting is that we have to learn this lesson over and over again. Because your parents teach you that when you're young, or maybe you learn it in Sunday school or from a teacher or from other friends. And all of these young people are always thinking about

what others are thinking about them and how they're being judged. And what I remind them is that actually we all just think about ourselves all the time. Nobody has time to think about you.

And by the way, especially in a social media age, people are even more obsessed about how they're being perceived than they would have been in the past. Quick question. Can I ask her a question? Dana, do you think that do you think that women I'm putting you on the hot seat a little bit here? Everybody loves data. Perino, everyone's going to love this book. You're on the hot seat now. Do women in this era care too much about men's height?

Gosh, you know, I am barely, I'm not even quite 5'1", so even Gutfeld is a little tall to me. Just kidding. He is not tall to me. Do women care too much about height? I mean, maybe. I mean, I know that it's sort of awkward. It depends. You don't see a lot of women who are taller than you. How tall is your husband, Dana? How tall is your husband? Let's just go through this. About, I would say 5'10".

Okay. He's like tall, but you didn't date. You're not a 5'1 lady who married a 6'5 guy. We've had some conversations on the show recently about this. He's tall for someone from Scotland. How about that? Fair enough. Fair enough. I don't even know if that's just a shot at Scottish men, by the way. I wouldn't have tall for someone from Scotland.

Scottish men are short. Is this true? Yeah. Yeah. The book, by the way, is fabulous. I have met her husband. He is fabulous. Dana has taken us out. We've watched Songwriter Nights. I have to say, he would probably get canceled if he had a radio show.

He is great. He is fantastic. Well, hey, by the way, you're listening to a guy who may get canceled at any moment. No idea what might happen from one second to the next. We got you. The book is I Wish Someone Had Told Me. Go ahead. And Dana Perino, go buy it. You're going to like it. Dana, we appreciate the time. You do fantastic work. I love you guys. Thanks so much.

Thank you. Same to you. Clay, I was struck by something as we're talking to Dana. It is true. My wife loves Dana. Everybody loves Dana. Her book is fantastic. I'm sure the last book was fantastic. I have a book title for you for your next book because we know the topic.

I have a title for you. Do you want me to tell you the title now or when we come back? I want to hear your title when we come back. We've got a title for the book, and it's probably not going to surprise you, but I'm curious if your title is somewhat similar to the title we've got an idea of. Now that you're telling me this, I feel like it could be, but just to be clear, Clay has not told me the title of his forthcoming book. I have a title in mind for him, and I think some of you are really going to like it. So that's what we call a tease in the business.

Would you switch? Is it me or you who's supposed to read? No, it's me. It's me. Oh, I blew it. Sorry. The leaf blowers are throwing you off, buddy. I know. The leaf blowers just track me everywhere. I hate those guys. Sundays with Clay and Buck.

By the way, I want to say Dana Perino, maybe the nicest person on air at Fox News, but if she had to get into a Royal Rumble with the other nicest person in my experience, Shannon Bream versus Dana Perino for the title of nicest person on the air at Fox News would be like the Jordan LeBron debate of the Fox News era. They're the two nicest people on the planet.

I would concur. They're two of the nicest people I've come across in this business and just in general. But Clay, your book is going to be about masculinity in America today. I think your book title should be The First Amendment and Dudes. That's good.

You are going to be, the book title is going to be Buck Balls. B-A-L-L-S, How Trump Won Men. And all it has on the cover is just two big basketballs. 100%. This is what, yes. You're all very welcome. That is, Buck's title is very good. But the title of my book is legitimately just balls. B-A-L-L-S.

And yeah, it's going to be fun. This is an iHeart Podcast.