The Stoic’s Playbook For INSTANT Charisma | Vanessa Van Edwards (PT. 2)
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Welcome to the weekend edition of The Daily Stoic. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom.

And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview Stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these Stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space, when things have

Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. I think it's an interesting question. Can a Stoic be charismatic? Should a Stoic be charismatic? I think the answer is obviously yes. Would we be talking about the work of these people 2,000 years later? I don't know.

If the Stokes weren't charismatic, if their message wasn't captivating,

Cato wasn't just principled. He also, I think, understood the theatrics of communicating those principles. There's a flourish to it. He might have not liked flashy people, but he was flashy in his own kind of virtuous way. And most of the Stoics were politicians. They were leaders. Seneca is a playwright who's so famous that a line of one of his plays is on the wall in Pompeii.

That's someone who knew how to communicate, who knew how to reach people, who understood art. Like we don't often think of charisma and warmth, bubbliness as a stoic trait. But if Marcus Aurelius was solely a bookish, introverted, boring person, he never would have made it as emperor. No, he's trained in rhetoric by Franto. He's trained in philosophy by Rusticus. And these two parts of himself are kind of not at war, but they actually complement each other. Cicero was an incredibly charismatic man.

captivating person. I think, again, Cato was in his own way, too. And that's what we're going to talk about in today's episode. Vanessa Van Edwards, she has a great YouTube channel called Science of People. She is a charisma expert. She spends a lot of time and has helped millions of people all over the world develop

their interpersonal communication, their leadership skills. She has a science-backed framework for communicating with confidence, being yourself with confidence. And this is not easy to do. It's hard. I've talked about this. It's been a lot of work for me to get there. I'd rather just sit here and just think about things all day. But that's not how you bring an obscure school of ancient philosophy to millions of people.

I don't think I would say this stuff comes naturally to me. I had to work on it. And Vanessa's work has been influential in that. I've known her for a long time. She now lives in Austin. My wife is friends with her. I don't think her husband came out to the farm once. I don't remember. Anyways, she's great. Her work is great. You can follow her on Instagram, VVanEdwards, Charity.

Check out her YouTube channel, Science of People. Her first book, Captivate the Science of Succeeding with People, is translated into 17 languages. Her new book, Cues, Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication, is also great. We have signed copies of both of them at the Painted Port. She was nice enough to sign both of them while she was here. Go to her website, ScienceofPeople.com.

And then she actually wrote an article called Can Stoics Be Charismatic for The Daily Stoic many years ago. I'll link to that. And then I was on her YouTube channel. There's this video called Breakthrough the Noise so your pitch gets heard. So that's obviously more of my earlier line of work intersecting with her line of work. I think she's great. Check out both of her books and we will talk soon. Enjoy. And this will be up on YouTube if you want to watch it. You can sort of see her charisma in action. ♪

When I'm backstage about to give a talk, do I want to be doing more talking or, you know, do I want to just have a few human moments with a person I'll probably never see ever again in my life? Do you talk backstage? Because I do.

Are you like a quiet contemplator? I'd rather be listening to music and just sort of pacing. I realize I need the oxytocin. So I will like go find the AV team. And I'm like, so how was breakfast? Tell me all about it. Like, I think I know. And I'm actually not extroverted. Yeah. But I realize I get so in my head that I want the oxytocin. So I will like talk to my Uber driver. I want their life story. Tell me a joke. Tell me about your quinceanera. Sounds like you're an extrovert.

No, I'm an ambivert. Right. Right. And what's that? So introverts get their energy from being alone. Extroverts get their energy from being with others. Ambiverts can get energy from the right people at the right times, but need lots of recharge time. So I cannot be alone all the time. No, I do crave people, the right kind of people. Like this is my favorite. Yeah.

Invite me to a happy hour. No, thank you. Like, no, thank you. Cannot do it. It's too loud. I can't have deep conversations. We can't talk about a book. And so I know that if it's an interview situation or a learning situation, I love it. It gives me energy. But anything else I don't love. On stage, it's very one-sided, right? I'm giving a keynote and I need the oxytocin to not feel like a robot. Huh.

You just need to kind of be- Juiced. Yeah, but be amongst the people. So you're not up there, you know, as this sort of figure pedestal thing. You want to feel real and accessible and just sort of get in that sort of loose zone. That's it. And that's, I think it's a chemical cocktail of oxytocin, serotonin, and dopamine for me. Yeah. And I can't get that pacing and listening to music. I can't get that jumping on a trampoline. I need to laugh with a stranger a little bit.

Yeah. To juice that cocktail because in our lab, we studied thousands of hours of TED Talks. Yeah. And the most popular TED Talkers are the ones who go on stage and act like they're having a coffee with you. Right. It's not a performance. They are authentically, personally themselves. And they are a master expert at this thing to the point of effortlessness. Effortlessness. And you know they have practice, but you don't hear it. Yeah.

You don't hear the script. You don't hear the bullets. There's no after. Like Ken Robinson, the quintessential one. That's one of the greatest ones of all time. Right? And Brene Brown's original. She comes on stage mid-conversation. Yeah. Like Ken Robinson tells a joke like he's telling a joke at dinner. So that is the energy that works for me. I think about getting loosened up like that. I haven't seen you speak recently, but you can be a little bit... I'll take the feedback. What can I be? You know, I feel the gap between you and me. I'm a little scared. Hmm.

And I think you would do so well if you're so warm, actually, when I meet you and I've known you for years. I would love to see the friend Ryan on stage. All right. Interesting. And I don't know how you juice that for yourself. No, no, there is. I mean, you think about the life of being a performer or a speaker is like,

I got on a plane alone. I flew to a place alone. I stayed in a hotel room alone. I went to breakfast alone. I worked out alone. Then I'm backstage alone, with the exception of these people sort of going around. And then you're suddenly in front of a thousand people or whatever. - This is my life. - And so I could see getting loosened up. - I've noticed with myself that I know the difference is when I go watch, I watch recordings of myself and I code them.

The recordings of myself where I was that, plane to Uber to work out to gym to dinner. I am stiffer. And remember, competence without warmth leaves people feeling suspicious. Right. Or lectured to or disconnected from. And so I think it would be a superpower for you if you could just be you. It is you. It's authentically you. But like you as my friend.

That's interesting. No, it's funny. One of the weirdest audiences I talked to ever was sort of Ted related. So the NFL had Ted bring Ted to what's called the NFL owners meeting. So it's 32 billionaires, 32 head coaches and 32 GMs and spouses. Not intimidating at all. And it was at this hotel in Arizona.

So it was like five speakers each doing 10 minutes. I was the last one or the second to last one. Anyways, you know, we're going through the run of show or practice and then you get there and they go, okay, so you guys will be sitting here, right? Like in the front row. And I was like, absolutely not. I was like, you think I'm going to sit here for 50 minutes in the audience watching the other people and then get up and go? I...

could not fail harder if

If that's how you set me up. So I was, it was funny though. I, so I was, they were like, okay, fine. You don't have, everyone else says you don't have to. And so I was sort of pacing in the hallway and it was funny to watch these different coaches like come and go from the bathroom or whatever, like during the thing. And I'm like, what's going on in there? But I have a, like a sort of, not a nervous, but I'm having to get into a wavelength or a vibe that being part of the audience is very much not the same.

that vibe for me, but I'm interested about the idea of talking. Like I do like shooting the shit with people as long as it's not like in the audience, no, shooting the shit backstage, as long as it's not a heavy lift, like as long as they're not. So what are you going to talk about? What do you think about this? It can't be that it has to be, it has to be chitchat. Yeah. Funny chitchat. Like I, that's why it's like, I find the AV guy. Like I, I want to talk to them and I want to be like, so like,

you know, what's been going on? Like, how was your weekend? I like to go like, who's the biggest asshole you've had to deal with? Like, I like to sort of gossip and stuff. See, that's so good. Yeah. Like, I would like that. Yeah. Yeah. I like to ask. Who's really high maintenance. Yeah, I love it. Who's the drama queen? I also, I love to ask people, who is the one everyone was talking about last year?

And like, what did you learn from them? Because I'm always like, what is the takeaway that people have? But I agree with you. Sitting in the audience is not my fave. That is not warm. That is not a good cocktail. That is cortisol and adrenaline. Like that is not the right one. And you're also not, you're not chit-chatting people. You're like sitting there thinking about yourself. Yes, yes. That is like the absolute worst thing. It's funny because-

I think the bigger the audience, the more impressed they are, that word, with how casual you are. Like I just did an arena of 10,000 and, you know, it was in the round, which is really challenging because you lose your slides. Like you, because they have monitors for you, but you kind of, you lose where you are. Anyway. It's a different like logistics that you got to figure out. Totally. And so I was like, I was listening to the speakers backstage. Yeah. And I could hear them really rehearsed.

really, really rehearsed because they had been prepping for this moment. And I was like, no, I'm going to go on stage and I'm going to pretend in my mind I am talking to my best friend. And it was one of the best keynotes. And they said to me, come back next year. And I just went back again. And so I think there is something to like, if you can master the warmth, even in like a very impressive big room, especially in front of a room,

It is a superpower. Of course. Well, I mean, it's like the number one fear is public speaking. Yeah. People would rather die. So if you can just show that you're not afraid to go to the point about fear, if you can show you're not afraid that you're...

You don't have to be totally comfortable with yourself because that can be a little disconcerting, but that you're pretty comfortable. Conversational. Yeah. That is immediately... Impressive. Impressive and intriguing and charismatic. Oh, this person belongs up there. Yes. There's a difference between presenting and conversation. Yeah. And I think no one should ever present. No. Presenting sucks. Sucks. Yeah. But I think that people think that once they're in front of five people, they're presenting. Yeah. Yeah.

And then it sounds like your brain actually goes on to like autopilot listening mode. It's very hard to grok someone who's like, like, well, watch, here's me talking in a TED Talk voice, okay? Today,

I'm going to speak to you about three different ideas that are going to change your life. Back in the 1930s, there was like... No, you're in the uncanny valley. You're not actually like an actor who's delivering... That made me need water. Yeah. And then you're not actually... That's not actually how you would talk. And so it's right in the uncomfortable ground of...

fake but trying not to be fake you know we do not like fake no our ears hear it are we see it like we even fake smiles like i i hate the advice we're like just smile more like you know about the uncanny valley right yes but yeah please tell me that's that i think that's a more common thing than just like video games the idea of like we're really good at

discerning things that are not quite real. And now I'm, I'm getting, I feel like I'm getting better at noticing what is clearly an AI written email. Like, you know, like I was, I was actually just dealing with this contractor and they were sending me this thing. They're like, our concern is that we will have to move this wall plus or minus 18 feet.

And I was like, done, not working together. You did not write this email because no human would say plus or like, and they did it like plus slash minus. Like I was like, no human would ever say plus or minus 18 feet. And no contract, a contract would be like, I don't know, like 18 feet or something. Yeah, exactly.

So it wasn't even that it was fake. It was like, it was the opposite of how a contractor would be, let alone just a human, you know? Totally, yes. And I was like, okay, this person isn't treating this interaction seriously. Okay, so this brings up a good point. If we're talking about Uncanny Valley, when I say you should be warmer, I don't mean fake warmth. And that is really important. Yes.

I do not want anyone to just fake smile. That is the worst thing you could do for likability. When I say warmth, I mean intentional warmth. I mean asking questions, searching for likability, assuming that this could be your next best friend. That is authentic warmth. And hopefully we'll bring out authentic warmth. So authentic warmth cues, eyebrow raises, nods, head tilts, visible hands, leans. Those are all authentic warm things. If I was like,

You know, it would look horrible and feel very robotic. But if I'm like, oh, really? You like that? Yeah. It's like very easy for me to do it. So we also study this. Dr. Barbara Wilde asked people to smile for real. Think of something that made them happy and smile. Take a picture. Then she asked them to fake smile. Think of something. Nothing.

She showed people the picture. A lot of the pictures looked very similar to the naked eye. But when people looked at the happy picture, they caught the happiness. Their mood test, they gave the mood test before and after, they improved their mood. Sure. People who looked at the neutral smile had no mood change. Meaning that authentic happiness, authentic warmth is infinite.

Yeah. And so it creates this beautiful like happiness loop. Yeah. So you have to be the spark of the authentic happiness of finding something you truly like. But that does not mean fake smiling or faking those warmth cues. It's the intention behind it that actually triggers that spark.

Yeah, no, it's, and when you see someone who can do it well, it's very impressive. Totally. All right. So I have, I got invited to the South by Southwest party tonight. Oh, you're not. That I don't want to go to. Do you have any, do you have any suggestions for how to get better at saying no? Oh, you know what? I thought you were going to ask me how you could do better at the party, which I can give you both. Oh yeah, let's do both. Okay. Okay. First, yes. If you're going to say no, I'm very good at saying no to parties. Yeah.

Never give a reason. Okay. Because people will always either don't like your reason or they argue with it. Yes. So never say like, oh, I'm so sorry. I have a friend in town. You're saying, please argue with me. Yes. Like, please convince me. Yes. And also they might think that your reason is insulting. Right. So that's even worse, saying no and giving insults. So like, for example, oh, I'm so sorry my friend's not, bring your friend. Right. Then you're like, she doesn't like you. Right. Like you can't say that.

So just say no. So start with gratitude. Thank you so much for thinking of me. Thank you so much for this wonderful invite. Wow, it looks like an amazing party. Always start with gratitude. Okay. Acknowledge it and then get really quickly to the no with no reasoning or no excuse. Yeah. So thank you so much for the invite to this party. I'm so sorry I won't be able to make it tonight. Yeah. That's it. And don't promise anything else and don't create a loop. Don't create, but maybe next year. Sure. Rain check. Yeah.

How about next time you're in town? That's like when people tell me they're in Austin, I'm like, fun. Like, I don't see people. I see three people that I like. So gratitude and hard end, no loops, no equivocation, no excuse. It's one of the best times of year here in Texas. Spring is amazing in Austin, but you just sort of know deep down it's about to get really hot and

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Okay, now if you have to go. Wait, wait. So another strategy, tell me what you think of this. Wait till after and then say, sorry, I'm just getting to this now, next time or whatever. Like I do think sometimes people bend themselves into knots trying to explain why they can't do something to someone that they don't owe anything to. That's true. Like the example I'm talking about, not the case.

But oftentimes, I did not solicit this invitation. We are not friends. You know, you are asking something of me. You're trying to get something out of me. I think sometimes people feel like they owe the explanation or they owe a prompt response. Or a promise. Yeah, you don't even owe...

Acknowledgement, I think, is to your friends you do, but to random strangers you do not even owe an acknowledgement. Agreed. I actually would say I don't like the approach of saying, sorry, I just missed this. I would just archive. Yes, you can just ignore it. You can just ignore. I would rather you ignore than do the after because why? Or I'm just saying like sometimes someone will send you a whole email about a bunch of things and then they'll be like, also, a couple of friends are getting together. I can just be like...

I can choose to acknowledge the parts of the thing that I feel comfortable responding to. I can skip over this part. And if they are going to choose to not read that clue or that social cue and decide to go, yes, but are you going to come to my party? You know, if they have sent three invitations and now they're asking me in person, they have chosen to press an awkward conversation and it's their awkwardness, not mine. Okay, let's go one step further.

I believe in radical transparency. And I think we're in a world where it is accepted. And if someone doesn't accept it, they're not your person. So actually what I say to people is I don't like people I can't come. Like literally, I just say to people, I don't do parties. Yeah, I don't get on the phone. I don't do pick your brains. I don't do it. I'm allergic to those words. I actually have a filter in my inbox that emails that say pick your brain go right to spam. Yeah.

I do not do it. No, it's a fucked up phrase. Widespread use of that phrase is an indictment of society. I mean, if you sent an email and said, hey, can I pick your pocket, right? You would be like, what? But people go, hey, can I, a total stranger, get together with you and get from you ideas or insights that were hard won or expensively learned, right?

for nothing in return. And by the way, I'm also asking for the most valuable thing you have, which is your fucking time. Oh, and also I'm going to be a competitor to you in three years. That's my goal because I want to be you. Yeah. I'm also just pretending to be your friend right now. Yes. Exactly. I'm pretending to be you actually. So I think that we're in an age where like we should just say, I'm so sorry, I'm too introverted to go tonight. Like we can say that. Sure.

And so I would like to normalize that. I've started to do it. I also like, I have people who like love to text me. Please don't text me. When I'm away from my computer, I'm with my kids. And I have people who are like work friends, kind of. And so they text. And like, I actually said to someone who would send me, I love you, very long voice notes, which are like violence. You know, like I can do a two minute voice note. Cool.

But like not an eight minute one. No, what they're saying is, hey, I didn't bother to really think this through and condense it into an actionable or clear way. Here is a audio vomit of, you know, my stream of consciousness. Make of it what you will. And usually what I'm making of it is Mark has read. Right, right. Exactly. It's like if I wanted to listen to you for eight minutes, I would listen to your podcast. That's how I feel. So I actually said to this person, listen.

When I'm on my phone, I'm with my family. If you have questions, please email me. I'm happy to reply over email. And so I think we have to be okay with that. And if someone's offended, that's not your person. Pick the ways that you're comfortable communicating that are most conducive or best for you. And then don't feel guilty about not checking the other things or ignoring them or...

just saying no or whatever. I stopped doing my DMs because I just couldn't. Yeah, I have two inboxes. I have my texts and I have my email and then everything else is...

I may occasionally chance to see it or someone who does check it might tell me that it's there. Otherwise, you might as well just shout it into the void. So Sam, who I've known for years, DM'd me something silly because we used to DM because I used to DM. And then my assistant replied and was like, would you like Vanessa's course? And I was like, oh my gosh. You mean my wife? Yes. Oh, that's hilarious. I was like, I'm sorry. My assistant didn't know we were friends. Like it just, it's a weird world. Like we're in like a very weird world. And so I think we also have to be aware of all those

modes of communication. And if you really love someone, you ask them, what's your preferred mode of communication? Yes. Okay. So let's say I do decide to break the general rule and I go to the party. How can I be better at it? Okay. First. What are stoic tips for being good at a public event or social gathering? Okay. So you should set yourself up for success and be very purposeful with your energy. Okay. So you're not going to get trapped in the entrance zone.

That is the worst place to stand in an event or party. And it is the biggest mistake that people make because they want to get in and out. Right. I see a lot of people who are like, oh, I don't want to be here. So when you get in, go in. And then you want to stand where the best conversations happen. Like, I don't like small talk. Yeah. If I'm going to be at an event, I want to have like, I want the full life update. I want to hear how your book went. I want to hear all the details. The best place to stand at an event, we actually studied this. We studied maps of social flow, is right as people exit the bar or where the drinks are, not where the food is.

where the drinks are. So where you should plant yourself is go in, get your drink, water or alcohol, whatever you want, and then stand where that exit is because here's what happens chemically for someone. When we enter our event, our emotions are the highest. We're the most nervous. And we're also overhead gazing. Who's here? Yeah. Do I know anyone who's here? It is the worst way to make a conversation. You're going to have really short, stilted conversations and be offended by their overhead gazing.

When someone got their drink, they've surveyed, they've settled, and they are desperate for you. So you become a social savior when you stand right there. Because what happens is they turn, even if you're alone, they turn to face the room and you go, hey, so what are you drinking? What brings you here tonight? You excited to hear the speaker? Sure.

And you're in it. Yeah. You know, it's like super easy. And they're dedicated to that conversation with you. And then if you're done, like you don't want to have the conversation, it's very easy to say, I'm gonna go grab some food. I'm gonna grab another drink. It's a real easy exit. That's the place to be for those deep conversations. Sure. Yeah. I also think like I went to someone's book event recently and it was like, I was

I was thinking about when I was going to go. And I realized, hey, if I get there 10 minutes before it starts, 20 minutes before it starts, I can have five or 10 minutes with this person. And then I can leave in the middle of it. They'll have appreciated that I came, but they'll be well into the energy and the success of the event. They won't notice that I'm there. But if I get there right when it starts, or even if I get there late, I got to stay to the end

to make the same level of impression. And by the way, they'll be exhausted, you know, or you can say that the other version of this is like, hey, I'll meet you after. What time do you think you'll be done? Let's get a drink or have dinner. Let's do something. And you kind of, I think if you're sort of reluctant to have social encounter, whatever, how do you find the most bang for your buck in the situation as opposed to just sort of doing unthinkingly what everyone else is? Yes, like finding your pocket. So like, for example,

That's such a good tip. Getting there early, I think, is the win for introverts, actually. Also, I will often ask women, do you want to get ready together? Yeah. Like that's a very easy way to get like 30 minutes of deep talk. Yeah. And you can actually knock on the event. Yes. Let's drive together. So like there's been people who like I really want to catch up with and I'll even Uber to like their wherever they're staying and we will Uber together for like that time. And then it's

Because you knew they would have been in that ride alone. So like you can also be very creative with that. There's a story that I tell in cues. It was really inspiring to me of social strengths. Everyone has different social strengths and social weaknesses. It's very important to know which ones you have. Yeah. I think this is a very stoic thing is to like not try to use a weakness if it's not your weakness. Yes.

So Harry S. Truman, former president, he was not a good public speaker, which is very unique for a president. And so he was at the Democratic National Convention in 1944, and he was very low on the list. Like people did not think that he was going to make it. And he saw that where everyone was battling was in the same place, was the main stage. Everyone would get up and they'd give speech after speech after speech after speech after speech.

He knew he would not be able to compete on that stage because he was not a good presenter. So instead, it was really hot in Chicago that year. He found the one air-conditioned room in the entire convention center in the basement. And one by one, he invited the delegates down, one by one, two by two, to just chat.

Yeah. And one by one, they'd sit in that air-conditioned basement room with him. And they talked to him. And he just talked to them. And his social strength was one-to-one talking. And it was so cool in that room that no one was excited to leave. And so one by one, and literally every vote, you can watch his votes go up. Interesting. As he brought delegates down. Because they would go up and be like, you know what? I just talked to Harry. He's great. He's great.

He's like really warm. Right, right. Having one, again, where's the bang for your buck instead of just sort of being part of the sort of general...

Competing in the Red Ocean. Yes. Like that was the Red Ocean. It was bloody and it wasn't his strength. And warmth. It's really hard to be warm on stage. Well, I guess it's like what makes the also what makes the impression. Right. And so like I was just I just had to go to like a gala for my son's school. Oh, it was fun. And it was like, OK, it starts at five and it goes to like 10. It's like I don't want to spend five hours. Yeah. But it's like we went right when it started.

And then we bid on a couple of things at the sort of silent auction. And then we had the sale and then we left. But it was like, I was there, I was seen. And then I proved that I was there because I bought something from the auction, right? So somebody had to follow up with me and thank me, whatever. I did. Meanwhile, if I, you know, we've been slow getting ready, whatever, we're sitting at the table. They might be like, I didn't see you because you're just, you're now everyone is there at the same time, sitting in their seats, sitting

And by the way, the people who are putting on the event are busy putting on the event. Yeah, they don't notice. And so they don't know, you know, you didn't actually make the impression. And so thinking about, hey, what makes the impression that you're comfortable making? And then I'm a big believer in going out on top, you know, like going out after you've made said impression, not lingering if you don't go do something you want to do.

Absolutely. By the way, you might've missed the best part of the auction. At our gala, we had cowboy auctioneers. What is that? Oh, like a cowboy, like a... I've been to a cattle auction. But it was for school. That's fun. Yeah. And they have champagne bottles. They walk in and they spray the whole table.

It was nuts. I was like, is this what they do in Texas? Like, I'm from California. So I was like, this is the craziest school gala I've ever been to. So you might have missed a cowboy auction for your kids. Yeah. Yeah, I guess. I got the thing. You'll be okay. You'll be okay that you missed it. Have you read much about Truman? I read his memoir or his autobiography. Biography. McCulloch. The McCulloch. I was just going to say. It's like some autobiography. McCulloch. I love it. I'm a memoir person. Okay. So we'll go talk about books. But the best Truman book, the one you need to read- Is?

is it's called Plain Speaking. It's an oral history of Truman included. So Truman sat for like 30 hours of interviews and then all of his cabinet members and friends. And it's very hard to get. And then since I've talked about it, it's now like hundreds of dollars on Amazon. Great. But it's one of the best-

presidential books I've ever read. Okay. I cannot wait to read it because I love McCulloch. Obviously I quoted it. Yes. Oh, wow. That's really, I just finished reading a book that had all the tapes that were released in

from Nixon during the Civil Rights Movement. And it was the changing conversations of the Civil Rights Movement. And you can see when they call Martin Luther King and they're trying to debate, it is an incredible book because my next book is about conversation. And so I'm looking for pivotal conversations. What changes someone's mind in a conversation? And so in the Civil Rights Movement, you can literally see all...

All the way through the 50s as these conversations are happening and they're recorded. I talk in the Courage book when JFK calls Coretta Scott King while her husband is in jail, that is what happens.

basically pivots the black vote from Republican to Democrat. And that's what convinces Martin Luther King to vote for John F. Kennedy. And the whole election is decided by like 50,000 people. It's one conversation. One conversation. Is it Sergeant Shriver? One of the Shrivers convinces... One of the Shrivers has a hard conversation with Kennedy, who then has a hard conversation with

Coretta Scott King. And that is what pivots the presidential election. Yeah, there's some other juicy stuff in the Nixon era. There's some really juicy stuff. The interesting thing is Nixon, he refuses to... Nixon is friends with King, but he's like, I don't want to get involved. And he fails to have the conversation and it probably costs him the presidential election. Costs him a lot. Yeah. In my opinion. But also, yes. So I think that like, there's so many good... The oral histories are like it. Now that we're getting more and more tapes and they're being analyzed, so much juicy goodness. All right, well, let's go next door. Okay. Okay.

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Find out more at CapitalOne.com slash SparkCashPlus. Terms apply. Do you have any book recommendations? Yeah. I love memoirs. I love memoirs. I love historical fiction. I love funny books of any kind. I love funny books. I love satire. I love dark humor. I love historical fiction. I love Devil in the White City. That kind of book I love. I love reading fiction.

Historical fiction? Devil in the White City. It's non-fiction. Yeah, but it's like, it's a story. I mean, yeah. It's narrative non-fiction. I also am reading Barbara Streisand's memoir right now. Guys, look, it's 49 hours on a wall, okay? It's 49 hours. It's a commitment. It's a commitment. But I'm super inspired. I'm 23 hours in.

And I'm like, I'm super inspired by it. Our eight year old is obsessed with Hamilton and we are six hours into a 36 hour Good luck. I also just finished Barbara Walters memoir and I loved it because it was such a unique perspective on history. It was so unique.

I think Chelsea got that one. How many do you recommend of that one? It's so good because it's like she's doing the interviews during history. So I have heard all these historical events, but never her perspective. Right, right, right. And she's very insulting. So it's very funny. Yeah, yeah. Like she'll be like, oh yeah, in a horrible handshake, really short, not that handsome. Like it's amazing.

Like she's so insulting. - If we're doing narrative not picture, would you say public 29s here? - Well, yeah, but that's not like fun or funny, but I also can do serious. - But if she said she likes Dylan, well, Eric Larson, have you read "The Splendid" in the vial? - Is that Eric Larson? I don't think I've read that one yet. - That's about the blitz. That one's very good.

But Tunnel 29 is incredible. I would do that. Yeah, what kind of memories do you like? The more variety, the better. So like from Barbra Streisand to Matthew McConaughey, read his Amazing, So Funny to Truman. The more weird, the better. I love them all. These are like our favorite. You might like...

I haven't read some of these, so these I would be pretty good too. Clementine Churchill, have you read about her? No, but I would like that a lot. I feel like I learned more about Churchill from reading this book than Ryan did about reading every book on Churchill. Oh, and she's doing a book on conversations. Yes, I need pivotal conversations, like people who have shepherded important conversations that changed history or changed perspective. Can it have gone poorly? Yes, absolutely. It has gone poorly.

Okay, good. It goes bad, right? Jesus says, I am truth. And then Pontius Pilate says, it's truth. And then he walks out of the room. So like, I'm fascinated in the fundamental lack of curiosity. Okay, good. That one's good. I think you should like Tadashan.

Oh, I like A.J. Jacobs a lot. I've read almost all of his books. I've read know-it-all. I've known him forever. He's funny. He's absurd. Yeah, absurd. I love it. I love books about experiments that are someone trying an experiment for 50 days. I love Bill Bryson. He's funny. I saw all of A.J. Jacobs' books recently.

All Bill Bryson's. I already do. I don't know that one. How old are your kids? Two and six. Okay. Then read Torch on. It's like, uh, extremely cute and fun. It's about this little, little, she's basically like the Oprah of Japan. Um, like this book's of millions and millions of copies. It's not very well known here. It's amazing. I love it.

My two favorites. I haven't read this yet. Is it good? That's what I was going to tell you. These are my two favorites. Okay. Okay. Okay. Give me your favorite memoirs. I read open. It's really good. It's really good. Yeah. I also just finished like David Goggins book, which was intense. Yeah. You finished that one? Read that one? I wouldn't say it's a favorite, but boys against. I was like, this is intense. I feel like.

Have you read Sharon's "Mingling Hats" book? Oh yeah. You know Sharon says so on Instagram? Like this. Like this. Weren't my favorites but still good. Oh. I went from David Goggins to Barbra Streisand. There is no bigger jump. What? There is no bigger jump. I don't know. My... And then my favorite narrative nonfiction are "Tunnel 29." This one. Which is about... Oh, Mary Roach is funny. I like Mary Roach.

All the Mary Roach. Like I read that one. All the Mary Roach. It's like those weird facts. Weird funny. It's like sticky. Yes. Like weird funny. Oh, so you have my favorite. Yeah. These two are, I love. Do you know, everyone talks about this one. Did you read it? It's okay. Is it worth it? Yes. Because I like, I'm like reading it. Read this Clementine Churchill one first. Okay. Because she's the same person. And if you like her. Okay. Okay. Okay. Everyone was talking about that one. I read this one. I read a couple of her books. Okay. Okay. It's, um.

It's like she's like a real spy. It's like James Bond but cooler. So it's really cool. And she only has one leg. And she only has one leg and it's like not... You got me with one leg. Like a theme of the book at all. Like it's just every once in a while she'll mention. She'll be like, I have my one leg. So sometimes if books are too talked about, I'm like, not for me. I know. Not for me. I call them like costumes.

Yes. Like, books like Vita to Cosplay. I don't want to hear that you've read this memoir. I don't want to have heard about it. No one's talked to me about the Barbaras, so that's why I decided to do a Barbara Monk. I'm not going to read that one now. This one's good. You've probably heard about this one. Yeah, but... Yeah, the cover turns you off. It's not a good cover at all. It should be the picture of the room where you hid all the paintings. Yes! Covers are so important to me. They shouldn't be, but they are. The book is very good. Okay. Because it's like a... I've put it on your list. Because it's like a...

Let's get it. It's like a... I'm trying to think of a good way to describe it. It doesn't feel like it's real. There's like no way. And every time you're like, who is the villain in this story? Really? Okay. You would not expect that. See, that's what I liked about this book. You're like, what? How can that be real? I have also a question for you guys. Very important. So my ridiculous face has been on the cover of both of my books. And that was not my first choice. My third book

Do you think it's better to have your face in your book or not good to have your face in your book? For my genre. For your genre? Yeah. Okay. This can be so... I'm worried that it's... It's on conversation. I don't know. We have a... My next one's called conversation. Okay, okay. Captivate Q's conversation. And so I'm like, me talking to myself? Like, I don't... What do you want from me? Like, just like me...

God, the cut, the faces on the books are hard, but it's, it is also like a, who are you trying to appeal to? Are you trying, is it your audience that you're selling the book to? Yeah. And they like your face? I mean, I guess they like my face. My face keeps getting older as

And so I'm like, at what point am I going to have to redo these covers? Because we're in a decade for Captivate. A decade. The 10-year anniversary. So I'm just like, yeah, I'm like, me at 40, me at 50, me at 60. So strong opinions about my face? I would stay on the cover. You would stay on it? If you can pull it off, it's better for a moment. I think you... I don't... I think it... What if I just did this? It's like...

just like really serious super intense oh did you read uh stiff mary roach's book yes yes yes this one all the living and the dead so stiff is about like what happens to your body when you die or that yeah all the living the dead is about the people who interact with the dead bodies

But if I've already read stiff, is it going to be boring? No, because it's almost like you're seeing like once death happens to the physical being and then it's like, and then it's like the mental toll on the people who interact with that body. It's like the person who's pushing the bodies into the cream. I don't know if I can commit. It is. Cause this actually made me very nauseous. Oh really? Then I got a little sick to my stomach when I was reading it. That is like all loving the dead is very like,

I don't know. It's very like, if you have death on your brain all the time because you're interacting with dead bodies, what does it do to you? Do you? I don't. Always. The foundation of stillness? I do, I do. I'm very neurotic. I do think about death a lot. Is this good? Is this

- Everyone talks about it. - Yeah, it's very good. - Everyone talks about it. I should get it? Okay. This is one of those books where I'm like, well, everyone likes it. Am I gonna like it? - Have you, and then this is because of the ranch thing you're talking about. This is my favorite Texas book. - Ooh, a favorite Texas book. Show me. Really? - Yes. - Okay, great. You know that I buy books for all my properties. - Yeah, this is one you need to have. - Oh, so maybe I should get a couple copies for each place, huh? - Yeah, sure. - Yeah.

Right? Because then I can put them in each house. Yes. Oh, and then I think, I bet the place you are looking at is in here. I just got my husband this book. I just bought it from his birthday. The best Texas book is Lone Star. Here by T.R. Fairman. I think he might have read that on Kindle. This is That's Our House. This one's for Sam also.

Look at this one. Yeah, it's cool. That was the military institute. Yes, it's beautiful inside. The details are amazing, but in the sleeper, we like a lot of head count. I'm sure the other ones are interesting. I'm sure it's in there. Super communicators? Don't even, I don't. Are we going to fight? Yeah, we're going to fight about that book. I have beef about that book. Interesting. I'm telling you. I think it is not good advice to tell someone, to ask, when was the last time you cried?

What a horrible piece of advice. I think you're right. Okay, there's a lot of nuance that's missing in... I just think like for... If you're an awkward person like me and you're like, oh, this is what this super community... Right, right. And then you go to someone and you say...

when was the last time you cried and they're like who are you yeah yeah okay you're right or they give you something very dark and you don't know how to handle it that's interesting i think it's like way it's like giving someone a loaded gun when they've never held a gun right when there should be some more nuance of the book like i think if you're at a place where you understand human communication then maybe it's for psychology it is a little bit advanced i actually had this part too that i have to do i think it was he's a coach

And he was saying like, he's like, it was good for him to read, but it's not a book that he would recommend to people. That's how I feel. He's like a basketball coach. He's like, I know, understand how I can relate better to these kids who have coaching, but not, but no, I mean, I really like it because I think, I think that I naturally do a lot of the things that he talks about in that book. Yes. I think that's true. Showing some of the vulnerability to receive, but like it's, it's, it's quite, I don't mind going advanced. I don't mind that. What I don't like is giving someone a tool that actually could make them more awkward and shut down even more.

And if you ask that question to your boss on the wrong day, it's actually bad for your career. Oh yeah. Actively bad for you. I also would not, there's going to be two people in my life. It's like two, it's like right away. There's like maybe two people in my life who I'd be okay with asking that question to. Otherwise I'm really uncomfortable. Like if you were to ask me that right now, I would be like, I'd give you an answer. I'd be so mad. Right. I'd be so mad that you asked that question. And then you'd be like, how do you handle it? And then you're like, now I'm having to divulge a part of myself. Or what if you tell me something super deep and I'm like, Oh,

- You don't know what to do. - You don't know how to handle it. - That's so interesting. - That's dangerous advice. - It is, you're right. - Weaponized advice. - I think it's something that comes now. Did you read it? - What? - I think it's something that comes now. - Supercommunity? - I wouldn't. - It comes maybe because it's something that comes. - Do you want to see the whole place? - Do you want me to hold it? - Yes. - Here, I'll just come in. Yeah, oh my gosh. - Why are you alone? - For each of our houses.

We have like our ranches and then we rent them. So I want to get them all because it's a biz expense. Oh my god. There you go. Okay, you got it? You want to hold my copy? Are you going to come up with this, Sam? This is like we do sign books and other stuff to film in. Scott Galloway's coming later. Yes, I heard Scott Galloway's coming later. I love this one. That one's good. It's really good. I haven't read some of his other, but this is lovely. I'll show you this one.

You guys are eating way too many gumballs. This is insane. Somebody's like, "Oh no, oh no." This is like hundreds of gumballs. I'm not mad, you're just gonna get sick. Was the shelf your idea, the hidden shelf? Long-standing fantasy for both of us. Oh, okay.

I love when you can fulfill a fantasy. - So that was a record store and then we merged it in. - Yes, I think when I first came it wasn't even set up yet. Yeah, but only downstairs, not up here. - This is my office. - Do you, so in my office the books I have behind me are ones I reference a lot. They're not ones I'm like proud of, they're just ones that I'm like constantly grabbing at the moment and I rotate them all the time. - So this is Philosophy.

These are mostly biographies. On the shelf is like random books, all fictions at our house. And then these are more like books that I read recently that I have not quite figured out where to process. Yes. And then these are like, yeah, these are books that have to process. And so this is more just like random or sometimes these are like signed books or books. You might rotate behind me because I'm like always like in the middle of processing them or I'm like quoting from them.

What happens is I set up a system and then... You're like, I see this system in prop. I can see it. Yes. I see what's happening. This is... Okay, this is... So this is... So I wrote a lot about Truman in the Justice... Yeah, the Justice book? Yeah. So anyways, these are...

These are some of the books. Yes, I can see that. That pile makes sense to me. Yeah, like there's a Queen Elizabeth. This is like the Queen Elizabeth pile versus the plan. Sometimes they kind of go together. That's a great book. Yeah, it's a great book. I just finished it. Okay, this is plain spin.

Aha. Okay. Okay. So I'll have to get my copy. Okay. So like this is when I like a book, these are, that's, I fold the pages. So you can see, I took a few notes. I can't do that with my books. Cause then I don't know what I liked on that page. So I use color coded tabs. Oh, you're writing it. Yeah. Because a lot of times I'm marking some depends. Uh, but then it's so personal. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. But this is like, um,

you know i'll say what i wanted to use it for so i can remember i use like color-coded sticky taps like blue is for like a science study yellow is for like it inspired me pink is like a case study or an example and that way when i'm like processing it's like easier for me to get it most of mine you can see like oh i stole one of my kids crayons

- What? - Is it about assertiveness? - Yeah, uh-huh. Terry, I did two kids' books and her husband did all the illustrations. - Oh yes. Yes.

Oh, so speaking of Truman and saying no. Okay, these are my Truman no reminders. Okay, so this is post-presidency. Thank you for the slide. I regret that I cannot comply with your request as long by my policy not to respond to questions. That's it. He did it. Yes. He totally did it. And then this one, this is, okay, so since this is a real inter-office memo, since the president will be out of office when the celebration will be held, how do you think we should answer it? Should we say that because of many similar requests, the president must ask to be excused?

And then the proper response was underlined HST. Now I'm a little upset because the person I sent to get this framed had it framed impossibly stupidly big, which bothers me. You could get it reframed.

yeah, but now it's already, but if it really bothers you, like let's remove that nail from your head. Yeah, that's true. But I will, I will happily coordinate that getting reframed. I think it just increases the chances that I don't know how much you're supposed to be touching the stuff. And that's true. Not at all. So that is so cool. I also think it's funny that you want this inspiration here cause you're asked stuff all the time. Yeah. So these are kind of like reminders. So then these are pictures of my kids and then, uh,

No. So they're all supposed to be related. Okay, so when I find no stuff, I'm going to send it to you to put on the no wall. I actually have one more Truman one, I think. I like it. Wait, wait, wait. I have one more. Anyway, this one is Truman too, I think.

It's so funny. You have inspiration all over your office of no's. I have inspiration all over my office of come with kindness. So I'm not a jerk. These are less kind. Your question will be answered in the book I'm getting ready to publish. So good. My aunt never gave that to me.

Great. That's what I'm doing. So good. Yeah. Okay. I'm going to send you no stuff. Yeah, of course. No, I like any reminders. This is a little color coding, which I know that you're against. Uh, yeah, I am against it. But when I, when we were setting up the office, we were going to shoot here. This was going to be where we did this. Yeah. This is where we're going to do the shooting. So when they organized that, when they were set, they were taking, they were unboxing all the books.

I was like, take all the philosophy ones and put them in here and then color code it. But you can see I am hard at work at uncolor coding them when I put stuff. It's okay. I appreciate both. I don't have a hard feeling about it either way. Oh, I just actually got, I just bought this letter of rare books. This is like a collection of Truman. I just got a Dale Carnegie originally signed how to win friends and influence people. And I was real excited about it. I don't use for $1, $1.

So anyways, yeah. You're working to undo the colors. I'm working on the color coding without having to actually shuffle them around. Because then what happens is I have a vague sense of where everything is because it's been here long enough. Totally. Do you have a strong preference on yellow or green for my next book? Because I did red, blue, and I'm thinking about yellow or green. I would put them side by side and see how it goes. How they line up. Yeah, because they're supposed to be a triplet, you know? Yeah. Are you going to do a box set?

I don't know. I did a post. I'm considering it because they're going to look good together. But then again, it's a book about conversation. Am I just going to talk to myself on the cover? Like what's going to be? I'm actually thinking about maybe doing an homage to Barbara Walters' cover of her book.

because she wrote a book in the 70s, it was a bestseller, called How to Talk to Practically Anyone About Anything. And no, everyone's forgotten it. - Sure. - And her cover was kind of great. - I like the old sort of forgotten books. - I love the old books. - I'm really stoked. This was like a 70s inspired cover. - Yeah, I think mine might be 70s inspired. - And I just did this book for George Raveling and we kind of did like an old school style. - Yeah, that's cool.

I saw your stuff on Instagram with him. It's so great. So great. That's cool. I mean, when I talk about a conversation, if you see that movie air, it totally blows what actually happens. But Raveling is the one who got Jordan to go tonight. Is it in the, is it in the offering or in your book? It's in the book, but it's, it's also very, it's, he talks about it there, but it's been covered by lots of, because it's, I mean, it's a billion dollar decision. This, because Raveling,

Ravelyn was his coach on... One of the assistant coaches on the Olympic team. Yeah. And Jordan was very sure he was going to go with Adidas. And...

A series of conversations, but not hard conversations. It was mostly, I should give him another chance. It was a very soft sell. And that's what gives Nike the second chance. And that's how they, I mean, it's one of those. Are the conversations documented? Like, can I cite them? A bunch of them. Yeah. There's some in the book. And then you talked about them on podcasts before. Okay, I want to look at it. So when Jordan, when they made the movie air, Jordan had two requests. One was that Viola Davis plays his mom. And then two, that George Raveling.

be written into the script because they'd given him a short trip. Okay, I cannot wait. Another memoir is Viola Davis. Oh, I've read that. It's so moving and so hard to read and so impressive. And her stories are incredible. Love that memoir. And I'd also finished Tiffany Haddish, which I wouldn't necessarily recommend, but that was funny. Interesting. I mean, Viola Davis for sure, Tiffany Haddish is... If you want a crazy read, just blow your mind crazy, it would be that one. All right.

What? Yeah, it's so good. Barbara Streisand, right? Barbara Walters is like a new view on history. Barbara Streisand, it's only if you like music. I like music and fashion. She was very into fashion. She talks about all of her fashion choices. I thought that the music and the fashion was very interesting. You know Josh Bolin's dad is married to Barbara Streisand? Yes. How weird would that be? How weird would that be? What was the...

Some random one that I really liked and got me into reading memoirs was like Jessica Simpson's memoir. So good. Why is it so good? It was so good. Yes. No, it's so good and underrated. Agreed. Agreed. I also did, this is outrageous and embarrassing, I did read Britney Spears' memoir and then Jamie Lynn Spears' memoir to see who was telling the truth. I did do that. Can we all admit that we overreacted and she probably should be? No.

No comment. What do you feel like? Did you, what did you think when you read them together? I mean, they have like some different versions of the same thing. And like, I think I might believe Jamie Lynn on some of them. Like some of them, I think were easier, but like, do you think Brittany wrote them more? I think, I think she wrote it with clap. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. And I'll see you next episode.

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