Michael Bayer of True Case Films - 613
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How are you doing tonight, Aaron? I'm doing fine, Justin. How are you? I'm doing good. So tonight you interviewed somebody, but before we get to that, we have a couple of announcements. I'm going to be at AdvocacyCon in Indianapolis, Indiana, March 28th through the 30th. Go out to advocacycon.com and get your tickets. Use code GENY10.

Also, as most of you know, Aaron and I are going to be at CrimeCon here in the States and in London. London CrimeCon is June 7th through the 8th, and CrimeCon Denver is September 5th through the 7th. Use code GENY to get your tickets. All right, Aaron, I'll let you do your interview.

All right. Joining me on this episode of Generation Y is producer Michael Bayer, who just recently started True Case Films, which I'm really excited about, given that I have now watched Fanish, the Heather Elvis case. So, Michael, you've been a producer. When did you get your start in that?

Well, first off, thanks a lot for having me on, Aaron. And I really appreciate the kind words about the series. You know, just before we started, you were talking about how, you know, you enjoyed it and, you know, everything like that. So can't wait to kind of get into, you know, why I created it and, you know, everything we went through and how I got into this. But basically, I started in production around 2009, around that time. So one of the first things I did is I started a business and I did explainer videos, video

before pretty much a lot of this stuff was done by software. So I got involved that way. I did a lot of direct response ads then. And so I got into kind of the production world through advertising. And so I really learned a lot about marketing too at that point. And I did that up until about, I

I mean, I would say about 2015, 2016, even in that time, I did make a documentary film called living.com. It was about bloggers and working online. Um, you know, it was just when the four hour work week was, you know, getting popularized and it's kind of before remote work was remote work. You know, it was like the first time where people were starting to let, it was called like the laptop lifestyle. Uh, now, I mean, pretty much people have corporate jobs working that. So,

That's kind of what I did at that point. So I was able to kind of work remotely. I worked for a lot of startups in Silicon Valley, you know, doing a lot of their just promotional stuff. But that's kind of how I got involved in the storytelling. Around that time is when automation really started picking up in this field where, you know, I mean, now you have AI. I mean, you can get these type of videos made unbelievably for, you know, you really don't need a lot of people. A lot of it's done by computer now. Yeah.

So at that point, I was looking for a new career. My brother's a criminal defense attorney. He was starting out or at the time it wasn't say he's starting out. He's a great lawyer, but you know, he didn't really have a business since yet. I don't want to throw my brother on the bus and say he's not, you know, he's,

He does fine with business now. But at that point, you know, he's like, I'm like, Hey, look, you know, I started this, this production company. It's, you know, it's kind of, you know, we're software is kind of putting us out. I'm like, how about we team up? I can help you with business development. And so that's how I got into law. I mean, I would say around before that time, it was funny. Cause I, I talked to my brother about this. I didn't even know the difference between a municipal court and a circuit court. So I didn't understand evidence. I didn't understand how a case works. I mean,

My brother's a trial lawyer and, you know, communication is something that I was always into and, and trials. And especially in this case, trials are all communicate. I mean, you're putting on a movie or you're putting on a show in front of a jury. I mean, you have to keep it entertaining. You don't want them to fall asleep. You have to decide what information for them to see and what not to see.

So lawyers are excellent communicators. And not only did I work for my brother, I ended up working for other law firms as well. Once I kind of got the kick of it, he's like, Hey, look, my other friend kind of needs some little help here and a little help there. So that's how I got into it. And, you know, it's fascinated by a lot of the stories and,

A lot of these people that commit crimes and whatnot, I mean, not all of them are just horrible, horrible people. A lot of them change their lives. They recover. Maybe they're on drugs. I mean, the majority were not homicide cases. A lot of these crimes have to do with alcohol and drugs. That's where they end up in that situation. So you do see a lot of redemption stories in that as well. But that's kind of where I got interested in crime. And I think the format of storytelling and what I wanted to start with True Case Films

you know, people, for some reason, they're attracted to crime stories. And it has to do with the high stakes. It has to do with it's something you ordinarily don't see. So it's something that draws people's attention. In a lot of these stories, there's also a deeper lesson to be told. You know, in this particular case in Vanished, you know, cyber harassment, online harassment is something that, you know,

you know, we tell through the crime story as well. So, you know, there's a lot of lessons that you can learn and safety is always a big issue too. People are always wondering, you know, new technologies are out there. This is going, I mean, how is this being used? I mean, what, what dangers are out there as well? I mean,

Social media is amazing. I mean, the knife cuts both ways. I tell that to people. I mean, you can start a whole business. You can connect with people you never could connect with before. I mean, there's a lot of advantages. Now, obviously, there's the social media addiction where...

I think we all are now looking at how much time we're spending on our phones and how to spend less time. But, you know, also then there's the downside, there's the crimes, there's a vulnerability that people have that you have to. There's a manipulation. Right. And you have to understand that as well, I think. And that's kind of what we're looking to do, or that is what we're looking to do with this film, but also with True Case Films. What we hope to do is get into stories that we can also tell lessons with as well. So you started True Case Films, was this in 2024? Yeah.

This was in... I mean, this project really got started in 2022. So it took me about two years to finish. And then there's that year, I would say, where it was like... I mean, there's so much in movies. You know, there's clearance. There's the lawyers have to look at all. There's getting insurance. There's distribution. There's, you know, there's a lot that goes into it that, you know, I had to learn a little bit. And, you know, so... And the movie industry has completely changed. I mean, it's like...

It's like moving goalposts. I mean, what streaming has done, I mean, cable TV is dying. You know, everyone's going online to stream. Now you have different formats that people stream. Not a two B's a big platform that's coming out now is advertising supported. You have, you know, subscription supported like the Netflix and the Hulu. Then you also have the paid.

You know, there's it's a foreign territory. I mean, there's a lot to it and it's it's completely moving and it goes deep, too. I mean, I know we're not here to talk about movies in the industry. If you want to, we can get into it. Oh, trust me, I could talk about the film industry all day long. I mean, I remember watching Laserdiscs.

And I have Blu-rays myself. I really appreciate, especially if it's a movie such as Interstellar that I'm a big fan of. I want to see that in all its glory. And there's a difference in bit rates. We could get into all that. But the thing with the streaming, though, is when it comes to a documentary, you don't need it in 4K.

Not really. 1080p is perfectly acceptable. And you started working on projects, obviously. Was Vanish the Heather Elvis case? Was that the first one you chose? Or is that just the one that ended up moving along first?

It's the first one I chose. And yeah, I'll get into kind of how that all came about. So I did have my background in production. I did have my background in law. I really enjoyed, I mean, I don't want to sound like a nerd, but I mean, I can watch long crime TV on their YouTube channel, watch trials.

Uh, you know, it's, it's, it fascinates me and it really does. I mean, I always tell my brother, I'm like, I don't think I could have ever been as, you know, as good of a trial lawyer as he was. I mean, he's, he's really good. Uh, it takes a lot to stand up there and be able to talk in front of a jury and put all the information so they can understand.

But I mean, it's just, it's fascinating stuff. So when I got, this is the first one, the thing that drew me to this case originally was the online harassment aspect of it. I was like, this is something that no one has spoken about. It's an issue that I feel like needs covering. I think we've all, I mean, we've all gone through a little negative parts of social media. I mean, now the longer everyone's been on there, fake news, you know, people just posting things that aren't true. And I think now we have a better gauge. People are like,

When you see something online now, you're not like, oh my God, that happened. You're like, wait a second, let's verify it. How many people are saying it? I mean, it's gotten better since I would say, you could say 10 years ago when this crime happened.

So, yeah, I think it's debatable, Michael. But before we go on, I do want to at least give a little summary for the listeners on what the Heather Elvis case is in case they've forgotten or they haven't gotten around to looking into it yet. But Heather Elvis was a young woman who was working at a couple of different establishments. One was the Tilted Kilt, and she had been having an affair for a short time with a married man who was in his late 30s.

And somehow this relationship fell apart. Something happened. But then shortly after that, the man's wife found out about the relationship. And that's where this case gets really heated because in their marriage, Sidney Moore ends up getting handcuffed to the bed at night. His phone password gets changed to only something that his wife knows. She takes control of him. And a lot of that's because

Her and her father are the breadwinners in that relationship, her and her dad. So Sydney basically just needs to do whatever she says. And then Heather goes missing. And we won't get into all of it right now, but that's the story. And you latched on because of the harassment and the harassment was going up against Heather's family, her father and sister. You hit it on the head.

So, right. That asked the story is so multifaceted that, that, I mean, there's more than just a harassment. Exactly. I mean, there's a, it goes in it's unsolved. The people who have committed the crime are in prison for kidnapping, not murder. Heather's is her whereabouts are still unknown. Okay. I spoke to Debbie Elvis recently and you know, this is not over, you know, I mean, she, I

I mean, they, people want answers. And I think one thing we looked at hard in the documentary that wasn't covered maybe in the Dateline episodes or ID was who else was involved in this crime, you know? So those are things that we do touch on. We do dig deeper.

It's an interesting story when you look at both. They're great. They do a great job, but they only have a certain amount of time where they can dig in. With a longer format of the documentary, we're able to get deeper into what happened.

So we have the detective, Peter Sestier talking about what he thinks. Jimmy Richardson, the solicitor in South Carolina is the only state, and Jimmy was telling me this, where they still call the district attorney the solicitor. So the DA of the county gives us very good insight into kind of what happened. Shared a few details as well about things that haven't been released to the public yet. So we do have some things that people will be able to see that

pertains to possibly is there anybody else involved in this case besides the two people that are in prison.

Now, obviously, I've seen this documentary series and as you said, I loved it. Knowing a lot about this case, getting to hear from the people who were involved, the recreations are done very well. It really gives people the sense of what was happening at every turn, whether it was the harassment or whether it was the frantic phone call that Brianna was on with Heather right before she disappeared.

Documentaries, I feel like whenever anyone follows a crime case, they like to hear from podcasters such as myself. You know, we've been covering crime since 2012. And you also have people who are like, well, now I've heard it on their show. I want to watch the Dateline. Now I want to watch the documentary from True Case Films.

And it just goes on and on because as you watch more and more, you really flesh it out and you start to really, you know, get your opinions on the case or you're talking with other people and they've heard it on a certain show. Maybe they had a theory that, you know, they want to talk about, but with you, when it comes to documentaries, did you know you always wanted to do documentaries? And is this a first release from your company? Is this kind of just having everything come to fruition just the way you imagined?

Yeah, I do enjoy, I do enjoy documentary filmmaking in, especially in, in being able to dig into a criminal case too, is, I mean, fascinating, you know, to go through all the records, go through all the, you know, everything, because even like you said, I mean, podcasts, Dateline, I mean, it's, it's a case this complex. It's interesting to see how people can simplify it or, you know, draw different conclusions or bring out certain information that wasn't brought out before. And I think,

That's great. I think podcasting is, is in John Lorden is one of the people in our, that we had involved in our documentary. And he's actually someone I'm working on, on another one. Uh, we're working on. I love John. He's, uh, he's one of the best. He's the one who you recommend. Yeah. He's the one who's like, you got to go on their podcast. And he's, he's a great guy.

And it brings more, more eyeballs, more people. It helps these cases. I mean, you know, like these are how these cases stay in the spotlight. This is how is something as easy as someone just keeping this thing going, someone in prison who might be going to jail right now or in a year from now who bumps into Sidney Moore, watch this documentary. They might say, Hey, look, you know, I want to try to get a little information out of him. I see him every day at, you know, he could slip up and say something. I mean, that's how the whole Donald DiMarino thing came out with the picture of

of seeing Heather was a cellmate, you know, so these people, you know, that, that more and more people hear about is it can only really, I think, benefit the case that way.

Yeah, 100%. And so that's one thing I love. And I got out of the documentary is there is a lot of care taken in the creation of this series. I can tell that the filmmakers, you and everyone that worked on it, Summer Dash and everyone else, that you all would love to see this thing solved. And so what was it like, though, when you got to speak with Terry, Heather's dad and others in her family? What was that like? It must have been pretty powerful.

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It is. We spoke with Morgan. We spoke with Debbie and we spoke with Terry. What they went through was unimaginable. You know, I don't even think I can comprehend something like that. It's beyond comprehension. I'm going to say that they're an extremely strong family. I think one thing we really, one thing I discovered while making this documentary is

they're good people you know and it was just such a contrast between good and evil you know when i was talking to some other people like that's something they could see i mean you can see just you know one side being completely unethical and the other side just being just good people so sitting down i mean it's hard you know i don't want to you know i want people to see in the documentary and we really got into how the family quote unquote i wouldn't say moved on but

What happened after, you know, you don't, you don't ever move on from something like this, but what it's coming to grips with it. How can you come to grips with it? How can you move on with your life? And, you know, Morgan Elvis, I mean, she was in the Miss, the Miss USA or Miss America. I know those things are different now, but she was in, you know, beauty competition. She's a beautiful girl. She looked a lot like Heather, you know, their sisters, you know, and she, you know, I spoke to her the other day and she,

this is, you know, can I give voice to other victims? You know what I'm saying? What can I do for people that might not have the attention that we got on a case like this? How can we help other people's cases? And I think Debbie, same way. I mean, she's concerned about people have to experience the same thing that they went through and how can we, you know, help and share information with them? How can we help, you know, in any way possible? I mean, I never want to say you can turn something bad like this into something good because it's just a tragic situation, but I feel like

That's where their hearts are, you know, and that's what I got from them. You know, Debbie said to me, she goes, one thing, uh, I don't want anybody else to have to experience what we went through in regards to online harassment, conspiracy theories. You know, when you're looking for your daughter and then you're walking around town and people think that you're the one who did the crime. I mean, it's just something I don't this, I want to bring awareness to this topic. Also, she was telling me that domestic violence and, you know, the internet and social media, and they're finding that, you know, victims of domestic violence,

are being trapped. They're being controlled. You know, every move, like, where are you? You know, a lot of, you know, who are you hanging out with? You know, everything's on social media. Why are you commenting on that? You know, so, you know, there's laws that need to be created and there's awareness that needs to bring up. I think the internet and social media is

This is new in a way. I mean, we're still only what, 10, 15 years in. I mean, we're not talking, you know, like think about when the automobile was made to now where, you know, you can't drink. I mean, think about when it came out, it's probably drinking and driving, going through no such thing as stoplights or stop signs.

So there needs to be rules. So I think that, you know, anything where they can bring awareness to these topics and try to mitigate what other people can potentially go through, I think they would see that as a win. Yeah, I think it's amazing. They've been able to go from they're the suspects in the public's eyes to now it's clear that they're not involved at all in what happened. And they're trying to say, hey, be aware of this. This is what happens. And

How can we help other people? You know, but that's the thing about a case like this. I think so many people want to get involved and not everyone understands the power of their words or how much harm they can do by getting involved, you know? And I think any one of us could learn a lesson here, but it's just, here it is. Here's the story. Pay attention to it. Understand what you can take from it. In other words, if you're going to chime in, why don't you start with, I feel for the family.

I hope Heather is found. I mean, at the very least, at this point, they want answers. And why can't we all be pushing in that direction instead of looking to make a villain or create a new narrative about, oh, you know, her dad and her had a terrible relationship, whatever the lie was. And, you know, obviously, if they watch the documentary series, they'll see how that all happened. There are reasons for it, you know, there's

So it's not like these people just invented it, but it starts somewhere as a little seed. And instead of recognizing it for what it was, they just jump completely off into left field and they start with the conspiracy theories. So going with that, how is it for you? Because you know this case inside out. What was it like having to read or see all of this, you know, the conspiracy theories and stuff? What was that like for you? Is that really uncomfortable or do you just sort of understand it?

you know, they're powerful. Like, I mean, when people, when you start seeing people reiterate things online, but one thing I think that Tammy Moore was very involved in this and she was very smart in a way.

in regards to the police aren't going to put a lot of this information out in the beginning of an investigation. So she kind of had a one way when you're just putting things out and the other side's not putting anything out. That's when people are, you know, there's no other side yet because the police and the DA's office and everyone else

They're not going to go in and put everything online when they're when they need that stuff for a trial. You know, so she had access to the files of the case. So you get discovery and she, you know, she can go through and say, hey, look, look at this police investigation video right here. Look what this person said.

You can edit it. You can cut things out. You can do things. I mean, she was clever in that regard, involved in kind of throwing meat at the trolls and, you know, giving them more and more to go off. And it just kind of swarmed up. I mean, I'll give her credit on that, you know, where she was very creative in regards to how she was able to use that information in order to get a lot of these things going.

Yeah, but I do think it exposed her eventually because what happens is instead of leaving things a mystery or I know at some point she was trying to say that, oh, well, I have a lover too. It wasn't about him cheating on me. It was because he didn't tell me. But, you know, when you find out he's being handcuffed to the bed every night, you know, if you find out that she's posting stuff and manipulating things and trying to fill that void that happens at the beginning of a case and you see her for what she truly is.

Right. It does catch up with you in the end. But in the beginning, I think that's how a lot of those rumors got going is because there wasn't anything else. It was hard to combat it. And, you know, the Elvis family did a good job of getting out, you know, in the media. And it's really insane when a case catches on like this with getting so much media attention, how you almost have to run like a PR campaign just to make sure, you know, like these rumors get going and these, you know, everything else and you have to stay up on top of it. It's tough.

It's tough and you want the attention, but you know, there's the knife cuts both ways. And even, you know, I was talking to Terry in the end, I'm like, was, was social media good or was it, you know, was it bad with all the, you know, and he was, you know, he was, there's a lot of good, you know? So I think he was going on about,

how we were able to mobilize a lot of people. We were able to bring attention so the government would pay attention to the case and bring assets in to help, you know, look and search. There's always the court of public opinion too. I mean, as much as a jury is going to say, Hey, look, you know what? I can be fair and impartial. But when you're hearing all this stuff on the news all the time, it's there, you know, it's how do you avoid it? So it's important. It's an important part of, of a case, you know, like it or not, the media plays a huge role.

Yeah, I think there's just this desire for people to know what happened immediately. And unfortunately, in the real world, like you said, prosecutors, police, they try to keep things close to the vest until they're ready to show you. And a good example I always like to bring up is the Alec Murdoch case out of South Carolina, because a lot of people were saying, oh, they don't have enough or there's this or that. When you listen, though, to the closing remarks, they buried him. And that's just the beauty of a trial. And I think

I get that too from you. It's like when you watch a good trial and you have good attorneys, it becomes fascinating theater. I hate to put it that way because this is real life. There are things at stake, but it really grabs our attention and we follow every word.

every testimony. And by the end of it, it's to me, I've never seen anything like it. I think a really powerful trial that everyone's following, it just takes over. And, you know, every so many minutes I'm popping online to check the results. You know, what was the testimony today? If I don't have time to watch the trial and obviously your brother is an attorney, has he been able to give you feedback on things too, just because of his experience?

Absolutely. So when we were going through the case and the whole trial, I mean, he, you know, he watched it too. I watched three times cause like Sidney Moore had one mistrial and then he was tried again. And then Tammy had her trial, you know, and it got to the point where I was like watching the bond hearing. I'm like, you get so into the story.

you know, going back to what you're talking about here, trials, it's, it's our justice system. It's the American justice system. It's the way we do things. You have your day in court. We all believe in it. It's in the constitution. And you have those, that jury there who decides your fate. You have to keep them awake. You have to keep them entertained. And I spoke to the attorneys about it too. And you know, that's, that is our system. I mean,

If it was a judge and not a jury, I mean, and you just laid out all the DNA evidence and all the information, you're like, you know, here it is. It's like, okay, obviously that person did it. But when you have a panel, a jury panel of your peers, maybe they don't understand that stuff as much. They need things a little more emotional. You have to keep them, you know, you have to keep their attention along the whole way.

So I like our system. It gets it right. I think a lot of the times, I mean, sometimes it doesn't. I mean, both ways. I'm not saying it's perfect, but I do like the fact that you get your trial by 12 people and you get your attorney and this is how we present the evidence and you have to make it entertaining. Otherwise, you know, you have to have a good attorney. That's just part of, that's part of our justice system.

Yeah, I've seen that so many times where you could tell one side just they're not able to really explain why is this witness on? What are what is the purpose of this testimony? Oh, you can blow. Where are you taking your case?

And I thought, you know what? I thought both sides had great lawyers. I thought Tammy Moore's lawyer did a great job. Sidney's lawyers did a great job. And the prosecutors were amazing. I think Nancy Lifesay just did an amazing job. Sweet, nice person. I met her in person and I was like, I don't want to be prosecuted by you, but she's such she has a big heart. And that's another thing I saw, too, in Myrtle Beach.

I went down there a number of times and, you know, it's, it's Southern charm, you know, like they have that, it's a very hospitable town and, and, and they're very nice. They're very friendly. I got to know, you know, Jimmy Richardson, you know, we were down there filming, I mean, just a nice guy and standup guy. And it was amazing to see how the community came together because, I mean, we were doing another story where, you know, that didn't happen. And, um, you know, people have to care, you know, like you said, the police have to care.

The district attorney has to care. I mean, there was only circumstantial evidence in this case, you know, so there wasn't a lot of direct evidence. So it was a difficult case. They had to put together a lot of pieces of the puzzle.

Yeah, that's something that people will get into when they watch your series. But now thinking about that, you're talking about how your brother has to basically conduct the courtroom. He has to have a plan and it's in parts, you know, and we all want to get to the end part where everything's explained. You're going to give us the theory and how this all ties together.

But you're doing much the same job with the documentary series. Now, I know you're not doing it alone. You have a team with you. Did you, I guess, have meetings on how to structure this to get this story put together to where you keep the audience entertained and keep them interested in that next part that's coming up?

Yeah, I mean, we have a whole team. I was telling I was telling someone else this. I mean, I think around over 100 people worked on this movie. So, I mean, there's a whole post-production team. Like I said, I worked in this industry for a while. So, I mean, I do understand the editing part and how to keep attention and whatnot. Summer Dash was a very, very important piece of this project, and it would have never happened without her and it would have never been this this well done without her.

She asked the questions to the Elvis family. She did a lot of the interviews with the DAs. We both kind of had a little bit more there. She did an amazing job. And one thing that I really like about her style of journalism, she does a good job of the logical part of it, but she also does an excellent job of the emotional part of it.

And she doesn't push too hard, but she also, she gets that, that part out of the story, which I think it's, it's hard to do. I think that's probably one of the most difficult parts to do is to get people to open up emotionally. A lot of that stuff is not done on camera. A lot of that stuff is, is, you know, building trust and getting to know the people beforehand. Um, she had a great relationship with Jimmy Richards. She has a great relationship with Jimmy Richardson and the eldest family. And she just did an amazing job and she was fun to work with. So we work together a lot on how to structure things, you

you know, what to ask what people, because, you know, you don't need to ask everyone the same thing, but certain people knew parts of the case better than others. Um, so I would say she, she just did an amazing job and she, she was excellent to work with. Yeah. So I, I mean, I, I think about the, uh,

It's a three-part series, am I right? Yes. And so, Heather Elvis, I laid out the summary for people. I think most people listening right now know the case. But like I said, it's just really powerful hearing from the family, getting those moments where they're being asked questions that, you know, aren't easy to answer.

But I also got the feeling they wanted to answer them. There were moments where, you know, someone's tearing up, but they have something they really want to get out because, you know, unlike with the normal media, nothing against them. But, you know, you're only going to get what you're going to get from that reporter asking the one question everyone wants to know. Whereas in this with a longer form series.

You can ask them things and then you get to hear what they said. And whether it was a friend who spoke to someone just before they went missing or someone who hadn't seen them for probably 10, 12 days, but it, you know, to them, they had just talked to Heather. And so getting those interviews and getting that emotion, it just brings people closer to the case. And hopefully after the series premieres on it's March 10th, 2025, people,

People will be tuned in and then after that, hopefully they'll be tweeting about it or posting about it and getting the conversation started again because I feel like this is still a case where we need answers. It's not over yet just because there are convictions. Like you said, they're not convicted on murder charges, Tammy and Sidney Moore.

Exactly. I mean, there's still or there might be other people involved. And I think the appeal process is going to be done in six months. I think there's one more layer of appeals. And a lot of people think one of them is going to flip on the other, you know, or they could even give information.

So a lot of people are wondering what's coming next after that point. And this is good that this documentary is coming out around this time. I, you know, I spoke to Debbie and you know, I don't, she's not a big addictive or she's not looking for revenge. She's just, she just wants to know where her daughter is. And, uh,

I brought this up, you know, the Natalie Holloway situation. At 24, I lost my narrative, or rather it was stolen from me. And the Monica Lewinsky that my friends and family knew was usurped by false narratives, callous jokes, and politics.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. So I think listeners can expect me to be chatting with folks, both recognizable and unrecognizable names, about the way that people have navigated roads to triumph.

My hope is that people will finish an episode of Reclaiming and feel like they filled their tank up. They connected with the people that I'm talking to and leave with maybe some nuggets that help them feel a little more hopeful. Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

when, uh, Johan batter salute, he was, he was being charged United States thing for wire fraud or something like that. He was looking at 10 years extra. He committed a murder down in Lima, Peru. I actually, I was in Lima when he did that.

Oh, wow. Yeah. I remember when I was going on, my mother's from Lima, Peru. So, so I have family there. I was down there and you know, I know it's right on Benavidez. It's a casino I've been to. So it was like next day it was on the news all over the place. I'm like, Johan, I mean, I remember him from the Natalie Holloway thing. And when that whole thing went down now in Peru, you don't have a life sentence. So he's going to get out after 30 years for, for killing this girl.

So they were going to get them in the United States as well. I think they're going to add maybe 10 more years on for the wire fraud case. But I now understand perfectly well what Natalie Holloway's mom, I think it's Beth Holloway. He came up to United States and just said, you know, I did it. I murdered your daughter. And she says, that's all I wanted to hear. You know, he told her exactly how he did it. And then he, that's it. I don't need 10 more years of your life. That's what I wanted.

And, you know, it shows the, how hard it is on somebody not to have those answers for their loved one. There's no memorial. There's no burial. It's just one day. You never saw the person again. I mean, we all have people that we know in our lives who passed away, but we have a grave site to go to. We know where to visit them. We know what happened to maybe even cancer, car accident, whatever it might be. We have an answer even, you know, for other victims who are victims of murder, you know, they know what happened.

She doesn't have answers. And it's a punishment beyond belief, I realize, through working with this case, not to have that. And I understand perfectly well about the Natalie Holloway situation. And she's not vengeful. 10 more years on his life. I mean, that's not what she wanted. And I think, I mean, I don't want to put words in the Elvis's family's mouth and what they want and anything like that. But that's kind of what I got from them is they don't seem vengeful, but they do want answers. They want to know where Heather is.

Yeah. So often people murder and then, you know, there's an investigation. They can uncover that here's likely what happened. We're going to try and show it through a trial with, with the evidence that we have usually circumstantial, but you know, the killer has taken everything from the family. The one thing that they can give back because they can't bring that person back, they can bring back and give them the truth. Here's what happened. And

you know, I think if there's any kind of remorse, if they're trying to look out for just how will people view them down the, down the road, do they care about that? They can come clean. And I think they'll gain some respect. I mean, you can't take back what you did, but when they hand back that truth, it means something. And so really, when I look at this, Heather Elvis case, you brought up a great point earlier, which is there's this idea that one could flip on the other. If you look at the relationship between Tammy and Sydney, now,

Now that they're not together anymore, they're separated, you know, because obviously they're not in a cell together. I think this is what is likely to happen because someone can talk, they can make a deal. And, um, you know, we'll see if there is a deal to be had, but if there is, I could totally see someone flipping and, you know, Sydney had been under Tammy's thumb for so long. I don't know if that would just be like relief for him.

Could go the other way too. I mean, you know, I mean, Tammy seems to have the personality that I don't know how much she, you know, loves her husband, but you know, it could go the other way too. You don't know. I mean, but they always see what's that whole saying where there's two people that there's one secret, you know, usually one flips on the other just because the other one fears that the other one's going to flip on them. I'm surprised they're able to stay this quiet for so, I mean, just this long, you'll be able to stay this quiet. Who knows if there's anybody else involved too.

But you're right. I mean, just between those two, you would think that maybe one would flip on the other or one would fear the other one flipping on them. So again, you know, that, that possibility is very strong. You know, I brought it up many times and try, you know, ask people, Hey, what's your opinion on this or that, you know, the prosecutors and the police and,

You know, some people thought, no, they're probably, you know, who knows, they won't flip. Or some people thought, yeah, give them more time. I mean, you're looking at another, what, 20 some years in prison. I mean, there's a lot of time there for people to say, hey, look, all I have to do is, you know, tell, say the other person did it. I get out, they're going to stay in forever. You know, who knows? So.

Well, one last thing on the case before I go on. I just wanted to mention that you brought up a number of times that other people might be involved. And that makes me think that there just wasn't a lot of time in that period where Heather and Sydney's, you know, phones, I guess you could say when they're in the same area and Heather to this day has not been found. So it really makes you wonder how,

How the heck could she not be found if she were murdered or incapacitated, whatever? How did no one find her? Because there's not really a lot of time there when they were in the same area.

You're going to have to watch the documentary. We did put some information in there in regards to possibilities and stuff like that. But it's a huge mystery. The amount of time that they had in order to get rid of a body, however they were planning. You don't know how deep they're planning. Did they have a plan months, weeks before that they're like, hey, look, we're going to get this and this is going to be done in an hour or two hours. It makes you wonder because you're right. They executed that part of it.

you know, pretty well known style in the body yet this many years later. And there was a huge search for it. You know, I spoke to people down there. Um, one of the guys in the documentary, Bill Barrett, you know, he took me around, he was showing me around areas where they searched and he was explaining the search. I mean, it was done very thoroughly in a lot of areas. He thinks, you know, maybe there's some other areas that could

could be where she possibly could be that they could do more searching. Another huge thing to note about Myrtle beach is in the last 10 years, it's grown tremendously. So you have all these new developments, all these new homes. So, you know, if people are digging and digging and digging in areas that used to be woods and stuff like that, you know, did, you know, did someone maybe see something and maybe say, Hey, look, this might be not be good for our business here. You know, saying there's a dead body. We're trying to sell homes.

I mean, anybody watching this podcast right now who's in that area and you, you know, you might know something or heard something that might know some say something, you know, hopefully this will bring that to light as well because they dug up a lot of areas in the last 10 years and they're still continuing. They're building there like crazy. Okay. Well, I encourage everyone to watch your new series that's coming out, coming out March 10th of this year, 2025. Where can they see it though?

It's going to be available on Apple TV and Amazon Prime Video. Well, that's pretty amazing. And can you give anyone any ideas about what you have in the works?

Yeah, we have actually two other projects that are in the works right now. One is called The Dine and Dash Dater. It's a dating scam documentary. It actually takes place in Los Angeles. Amazing story. It's more to do with safety of online dating, dating apps and stuff like that. It's a lot more lighthearted. I mean, it wasn't a murder. It was more of like a scam about a guy who would go on these dating apps and websites, meet women, take them to dinner, kind of

say that he had, you know, a lot going on with his life, that he was a man of means and wealth, take him to very expensive restaurants, order steak and lobster, and then cut out in the middle of the date, leaving them with the check. And right. And it went on for years because it was, you know, it was a perfect crime. You can think about it in a way just because it wasn't enough money. And there was such a high embarrassment where people like a couple hundred bucks. I don't feel like, you know, telling everyone about this. And, but ultimately,

A woman said, Hey, look, no, I'm putting this on social media. When buyer, Hey, he did it to me. He did it to me. You know, LA is a very media centric city. So like the news picked it up and you know, the dating culture in LA is, it's a little different than a lot of other cities. You know, you could say, cause like a lot, I mean, this wouldn't happen. Maybe in New York it would, but I mean, this wouldn't happen in a lot of small town. People get to know each other.

It's a huge area and, you know, people just are comfortable, you know, going on dates with random, you know, with people, you know, so it's a little different culture. So, but it's an interesting, it was an interesting story. I became friends with the detective in it. He's going to actually come to our screening. Um, Victor Cass, great, great guy. Um, he had a great story. And so that's something that we're, we actually have our interviews filmed.

Um, we're working on that. And then we have another one we're doing with John Lorden about a case in Dallas, Texas called, uh, it was the Jonathan Cruz case. And that situation is a little different in regards to,

It has more, it's almost like they didn't bring charges where, you know, we're investigating the case right now. So I don't want to really say this is what I conclusively think. It was on Dateline. I think a lot of people, you know, have their opinions on it. But, you know, there's two sides where a guy was found dead. And, you know, initially the police and the DA said it was an accident, you know, or, you know, he did it himself or, you know, he committed suicide.

But then they hired a private investigator, came out, found very different information. They won in civil court. That was a wrongful death. And, you know, the evidence is very strong towards, you know. Yeah, I'm somewhat familiar with that case. And it's definitely two sides. And I do think you can look into it. And I think you can pick a side, but that's just my opinion. But it's definitely a case worth exploring. Exactly. We're exploring it right now. I mean, you know, I don't want to give away too much on that because we didn't interview anybody yet.

And, um, you know, we're, we're keeping an open mind, you know, right now, but, uh, yeah. So that's a very interesting case, um, that we're working on as well, um, with John. So it should be John Morton. Yeah. Yeah. No, he's a great guy. I've spent a lot of time around him. I love his enthusiasm and his curiosity. Long time ago, he started a YouTube channel titled brain scratch and sure enough is the perfect name.

Well, Michael, it was a pleasure having you on. Um, I can't say enough good things about the Heather Elvis series that you created with your team. I hope everyone checks it out on Apple and on Amazon. Any last words before you go? No, I just want to thank you Aaron for the podcast. And, uh, yeah, I mean, uh, I ask everyone, you know, to go out, check it out on Apple or Amazon and let us know what you think.

Hey Prime members, you can listen to Generation Y ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the app today. What's up guys, it's your girl Kiki and my podcast is back with a new season and let me tell you it's so good and I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay? Every episode I bring on a friend and have a real conversation and I don't mean just friends, I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on and now I have my own YouTube channel.

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