Closing in on the Wagners
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This is the Pikedon Massacre, Return to Pike County, Season 4, Episode 12, Closing in on the Wagners.

I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Lidecker and Jeff Shane. It's the middle of George Wagner IV's trial. It's important to note that George Wagner IV, along with his father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, deny any wrongdoing and have pleaded not guilty to all charges. So far, there's been hours of testimony by investigators and relatives that have painted a very real portrait of what the crime scenes look like.

But while prosecutors have laid out the grisly details of the murders, they have yet to connect George Wagner IV to the killings. Special Prosecutor Andrew Canepa calls Special Agent John Jenkins of the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigations, more commonly known as the BCI.

Jenkins sports a trimmed goatee and looks every bit the veteran investigator he is. In 2016, just four months after the brutal murders, Jenkins interviewed the Wagner family's father, Billy. You can find Billy Wagner's raw audio of his conversation with special agents on our Apple Plus True Crime subscription page. A link to that page is included in this episode's description.

But today, attention turned to a police interview with the defendant's father, Billy Wagner. He was best friends with one of the victims, Chris Roden. And in his interview, he provides some insights that could not only help the prosecution, but could also be useful for the defense. BCI agents had spent months trying to speak to Billy Wagner. Jenkins testified that Wagner seemed to be avoiding them.

We want to talk to him because of the fact of his relationship with and Hannah, but also we had started to at this time get tips and leads that there might have been some issues with some custody reference. And that task became difficult due to the fact that when we stopped by the house, Billy wasn't always there.

In September of 2016, BCI agents finally tracked down Billy Wagner outside a grocery store. And was this interview with Billy Wagner recorded? Yes, it was audio recorded. At this time, Your Honor, I would like to play that recording for the jury.

I just want to talk with you about the road murders, okay? And so, you know, we've been out talking with people, you know, all kinds of, you know, tips get called into our office and all that. And so your name has come up and, you know, in tips and things like that. So we just want to talk. That's fine. Whatever you want to know. Just be honest with us. I'll tell you whatever I can do to help you out.

As the audio recordings began, Jenkins, wearing a blue blazer and white shirt, lowered his head and sat listening to the conversation. Billy Wagner was first asked about his relationship with Chris Roden Sr. Wagner insisted he and victim Chris Roden were very close.

You know, Chris was my best friend. Me and him, you know, we run around all the time. But one thing about Chris, Chris don't tell, he didn't tell nobody nothing. He kept his business to himself. And I'm going to tell you straight up, I don't care what he done. He was my friend. He done everything for me. You know, and Chris grew it up hard. I mean, he scrounged for everything he had, worked his ass off, and he worked every day.

You know, they shit, they're making him out like some damn big gangster is a bunch of shit. Okay. Okay. And that's why we wanted to talk with you. You know, I,

He wasn't a saint. Absolutely not. But Chris never hurt nobody. I'll tell you whatever I can do to help get out. And we're not concerned about anything other than the murders. So, you know, we've talked with different people. Different people have different involvement. You know, you've read the paper. You know, you've seen the news. I'm not worried about all that. I'll tell you whatever you need to know. Okay, I'm just saying, you know, there was gross damage. I'm going to tell you something though right off the bat. Okay. You didn't know Chris, all right?

Most of the shit they're talking about is a bunch of bullshit lies. I mean, Chris, he'd give you the shirt off his back. Well, we've heard that. You know, he was absolutely, you know, nobody else liked him. Oh, Chris. Like I said, he's my best friend.

Wagner also said he and Chris Roden had spoken the night he was killed. Last time I talked to him, and he seemed all right, was the night before all this happened. And I said, hey man, I'll talk to you tomorrow. And then next morning, you know, all hell broke loose. BCI agents asked Wagner who he thought committed the murders. Billy Wagner floated the possibility that Chris Roden Sr. might have owed money to drug dealers.

And a bunch of hillbillies do something like that. And when I, you know, sorry, right? Never convinced me, right? You know, I was like some seal team six. Okay, but your bottom feeding sons of bitches, right? Well, you know, you know, you're bottom feeders. I mean, every damn one of them. I mean, they're on that freaking shit. And I mean, they killed her damn grandma for $5. And, you know, I told Chris, you know, not to fuck, you know, shouldn't fuck around with that shit.

Investigators again press Billy Wagner about his relationship with victim Chris Roden Sr., specifically if they'd gotten into a fight a few weeks prior to the murders.

No.

Throughout the nearly two-hour conversation, Wagner tried repeatedly to shift the investigator's attention away from himself and his family. You're looking in the wrong damn direction. You need to be going the other way.

At one point, Billy Wagner even mentioned he'd heard Hannah Roden was seeing a sheriff and said someone had seen a sheriff's car parked on Union Hill Road.

Later, when agents mentioned the marijuana growing on Chris Roden's property, Billy Wagner denied any involvement in the drug business.

they thought that you and Chris were business partners. No. Now, if Chris, you know,

I don't like to bullshit you, Chris. I don't care what Chris asked me to do. If he asked me to do something, I'd do it for him because he'd do anything for me. Right. You know, you just don't, there's no way you can understand that. No, I understand. You know, but he, well, me and Chris was, you know, like I said, we're daylight and dark, all right? But we, you know, pretty much, you know, if he wanted to go do something, we'd go. If I wanted to go do something, he'd go with me. You know, it didn't matter.

So you never hauled any weed for him? No, no. I hauled a lot of cars for him. Hauled a lot of cars? Like, would you haul them around? I'd go down to Dreher, down there to Coe Parks and get them for him and bring them up.

Investigators returned to rumors of illegal drugs and a possible drug deal that Chris Roden Sr. was potentially involved with, and who Billy Wagner alleged might have had a reason to kill Chris Roden Sr. It's important to note that George Wagner's allegations against Skid Montgomery are not substantiated. Here's Special Prosecutor Angie Canepa picking up her questioning of Agent Jenkins.

There's talk in during that conversation between you and Mr. Wagner, and he keeps referring to a person named Latham. Yes, that's correct. And can you tell us who Latham is? Sure. So, um,

During that interview, Mr. Wagner, as you heard, would keep referring to an individual named Latham. And basically who he was referring to is an individual named Skid Montgomery. Skid Montgomery lives in around the Latham area, owns a lot of property in the Pike County area.

And we've learned through the investigation that there was always rumor that Skid Montgomery was a big, large scale marijuana dealer and that he would put hits out on people. Special Agent Jenkins, obviously Billy talked to you about an alleged business deal where Chris was expected to get a large chunk of marijuana and

Here's Stephanie and Jeff.

It's very compelling to hear the voice of accused father Billy Wagner. Hearing this interview that has been spoken about so often was fascinating. Some people say that he was rambling in this interview and trying to lead investigators in a different direction and throw some tidbits at them to get them off his track.

But frankly, in listening to it, I thought he felt pretty calm and cooperative. He was just being stopped outside of a grocery store and cut to he's in a two-hour interview.

Well, Steph, based on what we've heard about the Wagner's movements after the murders, I think it stands to reason that they probably were anticipating talking to law enforcement at some point and probably had a bit of a script or a plan for when that did happen. I mean, because Billy very quickly was throwing out, you know, unsubstantiated rumors about 19-year-old victim Hannah Mae or pointing away from himself towards the Gras operation and even bringing up Skip Montgomery.

He already had a litany of things that he was going to kind of throw at the police to get the scent off of him and his family. Interesting that you should say that because yes, you're right. On the one hand, he's saying that Chris Sr.

was his very best friend and he would do anything for him and that Chris would do anything for him. And to your point, on the other hand, he's essentially throwing him under the bus by pointing to the grow operation and denying that there was ever a big fight between them regarding custody and kind of

bringing him again back to Skid Montgomery. Even just hearing the name Latham, aka Skid Montgomery, and it legitimately makes the hairs in the back of my neck stand up because we've been given this name so many times, both from listeners and people in and around the area.

And again, Skid Montgomery is a very prominent landowner in Pike County. And now here's Billy basically accusing him. Is this just Billy getting him off his...

his tracks? Or is it possible that there is some truth to that? I have to assume that we're going to hear from Skid Montgomery at some point and that he'll be a witness. I also thought it was interesting that Billy says there was a sheriff at the bottom of the road that whole night that he had heard rumors of that. Is he referring to Sheriff Reeder?

And if so, I also have to assume that Sheriff Reeder at some point will testify at this trial because his name comes up all the time. And as we know, he's currently serving time for unrelated charges for taking drug money illegally and using it for gambling. Again, completely unrelated. Nobody has associated him with these murders yet.

But again, these names keep coming up. Well, Steph, this is certainly an interesting preview of the trial to come. As we know, Billy Wagner has pled not guilty and is awaiting trial. And so this is maybe just a little bit of a sneak peek at his upcoming legal proceedings. Also, even just him saying that me and Chris were best friends and that we were like daylight and dark. I thought that was such a curious statement. Which one does he see himself as?

Despite efforts to shift the focus away from himself and his family, investigators walked away from their conversation with Billy Wagner with more questions than answers. Here's legal analyst Mike Allen.

He didn't help himself. Listening to it, I really don't know what he was trying to do. I mean, obviously, he was trying to shift the focus away from him and his family. I don't think he was very successful with it. That happens all the time. These people, some of them, they deceive themselves into thinking that, you know, they're the smartest criminal in the world. And, you know, they'll say, well, if I say this to the police or,

If I say something else to the police, that'll throw them off the trail. Doesn't happen. We're going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment.

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The investigative trail was beginning to point directly to the Wagner family, though not necessarily to defendant George Wagner. Here's longtime investigative reporter James Pilcher in Cincinnati, now with Local 12. When are they going to point to George being part of this conspiracy? Because none of the physical evidence that they presented early on had any of the Wagners to any of these crime scenes.

Outside the courtroom, questions were being asked about the prosecution's ability to link George Wagner to the murders. That to me is the major issue here, right? We've been going for days in this trial, lots of evidence, lots of witnesses. But honestly, we have yet to hear any connection of George IV to these crimes.

Following Special Agent John Jenkins' testimony, the defense requested for the third time in the trial there should be a mistrial. The defense argued the tapes of Special Agent Jenkins' interview with Billy Wagner should never have been played before the jury.

The defense argued the tapes had nothing to do with George Wagner and that the interview did not establish any proof of a conspiracy to commit aggravated murder. Special Prosecutor Angie Canepa said that wasn't why the state played the interview with Billy Wagner at his son George's trial. Instead, she wanted the jury to see how BCI investigators ended up focusing on the Wagner family.

The court has overruled the motions previously made on the record for mistrial and to exclude the tape or to strike the tape. Is defense counsel and the state ready to bring the jury up? Judge Deering ruled against the motion for a mistrial, and the prosecution called for the second time BCI analyst Julia Eveslage. The agent has long brown hair and is wearing a maroon red jacket.

Evaslage is sworn in and questioned by Special Prosecutor Angie Canepa. Good afternoon. How are you? Good afternoon. If you want to go ahead and state your name again, just for the record. Julia Evaslage. Okay. And you previously testified in this case, correct? That's correct. And we've already discussed with you your current role at the Bureau of Criminal Investigations.

and your work in this case specifically in analyzing records and other things that came that were obtained pursuant to both subpoenas and search warrants, correct? Yes. Okay. And can you tell us when you go through records and such, is that information that you then share with the investigative team? Yes.

And in your experience, does that then inform their investigation in people that they are ruling in or ruling out? Yes. Okay. And can you tell us, Ms. Eveslage, in this case, did you guys obtain Facebook records of the victims? Yes. One of our cybercrimes agents obtained a search warrant for all of the Facebook accounts of the victims, and we reviewed those once the responses came in from Facebook. Okay.

On the screen above Eveslage, prosecutors pull up a spreadsheet of messages taken from Hannah Roden's Facebook account. Each entry is labeled with the time and date of the exchange. During that review of those Facebook records, did you find information in the Facebook account belonging to Hannah Mae Roden? Yes. And can you tell us why were they noteworthy to you?

When we first started looking at Hannah's Facebook, we found some statements in there and some of her messages that seemed to be in direct conflict with things that we had heard in interviews, particularly with Jake Wagner's interview. And we noted just different statements about abuse in the relationship, issues with the Wagners being controlling, things like that, and then just her kind of sense of discomfort with the situation with the custody of *** and fears that they were trying to take *** from her.

Here again, Stephanie and Jeff. Last episode, we heard, among others, Tabitha Clayton, George Wagner's ex-wife's testimony and her correspondence between her

Hannah Mae Roden and herself before she was murdered. Well, yeah, what's interesting about this is the messages between Hannah Mae and Tabitha, George's ex-wife, talk about the fears of losing custody and the Wagner family making the young women sign documents that they don't want to be signed, kind of basically being coerced into signing.

Attempted guardianship fraud was uncovered in the Pike County murder trial. Take a closer look at your screen here. I want to show you something that's on that document. At the bottom of it, you can see a URL to a website and there's a date on the paper. It shows someone ripped this document off a Texas government website in April of 2016, the same month someone murdered Hannah May and seven of her family members. Investigators say they found that in the Wagner's belongings.

While the Wagners told investigators there were no issues over custody of Jake and Hannah's daughter, analyst Julia Eveslage pointed to additional Facebook messages that showed Hannah was scared of the Wagners' attempts to win custody of her daughter.

One Facebook message stood out. It's the often-spoken-about conversation from December of 2015 that was between Hannah Mae Roden and George Wagner IV's ex-mother-in-law. It's where Hannah Mae swears she will never sign papers to give up custody of her daughter. As for those Facebook messages to Hannah Wagner, one of those exchanges between Tabitha and Hannah Roden actually took place on the very day that Hannah Roden was killed.

Billy Wagner's interview and the Facebook messages showing the brewing custody battle between Hannah and Jake convinced investigators in late 2016 they needed to shift their focus to the Wagner family. You need to investigate that. That's important. That's a lead. That's something that needs to be ran down.

Special Agent Ryan Scheiderer of the BCI led the two-year investigation into the brutal killings. Scheiderer testified that he visited the Wagners' home on Peterson Road in May of 2017, just before the Wagners were set to move to Alaska. Here's Angie Canepa speaking with Agent Scheiderer, who is on the stand. ♪

When you arrived, you said Jake and Angela and George were outside packing belongings in a trailer. Did all three of those individuals remain outside? No, they did not. George excused himself and went inside. And Jake and Angela remained outside? Yes. Okay. And during that time, did you observe anything in the driveway that was of interest to you? Yes. While speaking with Angela and Jake, they were...

willing to speak with us. They didn't ask us to leave. I just casually observed there was numerous fired cartridge casings lying about the driveway all over the place. There was hundreds if not thousands of cartridges laying around, casings. And can you tell us, Special Agent Scheider, did you, were you able to pick those items up and examine them closely? No. Okay.

And were you able to tell from your vantage point, not bending over and picking them up or examining them closely, did any of them appear to be of interest? Yes. So the crime scenes, we were aware that there was a .40 caliber used. A .40 caliber cartridge casing was found at one of the crime scenes. You guys heard about that. We also knew that there was potentially a .30 caliber rifle that was used and .22 long rifle. What I observed that

that day, I saw cartridge casings that appeared to be from a rifle. They weren't

like a 22 caliber rifle so they weren't 22 rimfires but they definitely weren't like 223s or 556s i just couldn't tell what caliber they were and then i also saw cartridge cases that were or casings that were consistent with pistol calibers specifically to me it looked like they were nine millimeter or 40 caliber i couldn't tell from my vantage point obviously i'm standing up and i did not examine them

And can you tell us, was there also a conversation with Jake regarding various punishments for this kind of a crime? Yes. One of the things that I like to do when I'm talking to somebody that I suspect is involved in a crime I'm investigating is oftentimes I will ask that person,

Following the visit, investigators got a warrant to search the Wagner property and their cell phones. Among the many communications they found were text messages between George Wagner and his father, Billy.

One message was sent while BCI investigators were at the Wagners' home. Can you tell us if you saw anything of interest on Billy's phone? There was interesting text messages from George. Message number four is an inbox, which means it's a message to Billy, and it is from George, his son, and it says, "Don't come down till I text you. Got company." Here's Stephanie.

None of this ties George Wagner to the crimes. I also thought it was interesting that when policed

arrived to their home and George went inside and they later took Billy's phone and he had texted to George to stay inside. Was he protecting him from police? Was Jake protecting his brother when he said what should happen to the people who committed this crime? And he said, depends on who the trigger puller was.

But again, a strange answer retrospectively, since he's now taken a plea agreement saying that he was in fact a trigger puller. Is that a way of protecting George? Because so far, compelling as all of this is, none of it really does tie George to the crime. But Jake Wagner's phone included far more incriminating evidence. Once again, the messages were displayed on a large TV screen above the witness box.

Did you also look at Jake's phone and did you find anything of interest on that phone? Yes. And can you tell us what you found? One of the most interesting things that we found on Jake's phone at that time was under the notes section and it was a list of guns

owned by the Wagners were purported to be. So basically there's a list with each Wagner's name and then a list of guns underneath each of those names. Jurors and Wagner's murder trial learned his brother Jake kept a list of guns that investigators think both men along with their parents, Billy and Angela owned on that list and SKX 762 by 39 and a Colt 1911 22 pistol.

The search of the Wagner property also produced valuable evidence linking the Wagners weapons to the murders. This included hundreds of shell casings from the Wagner family farm. BCI firearms expert Matthew White delivered what could turn out to be damning testimony in the state of Ohio's case against George Wagner today. Let's stop here for another break.

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During Special Prosecutor Andy Wilson's questioning of BCI agent Matthew White, prosecutors showed hundreds of photos of shell casings on the overhead screen. Jurors were seen taking notes and at times sketching doodle drawings during the long and often technical testimony. Were you able, based on your knowledge, your training, your experience...

And the work that you had done in this case, examining both the shell casings and the projectiles, were you able to render an opinion as to whether or not any guns listed on that list could have been responsible for the evidence recovered from the scenes? I did. And could you tell the jury what that opinion was?

I felt the most likely candidates for firearms that could have been used were the SKS 7.62x39 and the Colt 1911-22 pistol. Based on your review of this, you determined that the SKS 7.62x39 and the Colt 1911-22 could be contributors to...

the guns that were used. It could be the guns that were used in this case. Yes, that is correct. Matthew White was also asked if any of the shell casings found on the Wagner's property matched any of the cartridge casings collected at the crime scenes. And when you did those comparisons,

Were you able to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty to reach a conclusion as to whether or not those exhibits that were recovered from Peterson Road were fired from the same firearm that fired the shell casings recovered from scene two and scene three? I was. And can you tell the jury what that opinion was?

Based on my microscopic comparison of the two fired .22 long rifle cartridge cases compared to the other fired .22 long rifle cartridge cases, I was able to conclude that all of the fired .22 long rifle cartridge cases had been fired in the same firearm. The defense, however, tried to blunt the testimony linking the Wagner's family's weapons to the murder scenes. The cross-examination lasted less than 10 seconds.

Good afternoon, Mr. White. Good afternoon, sir. Good to see you again. You too, sir. You don't know who fired that weapon? No, sir. I cannot say that. Thank you, Jeff. More on that next time. For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at KT underscore studios. The Piketon Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lidecker, Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnau, Gabriel Castillo, and me, Courtney Armstrong.

Editing and sound design by Jeff Twa. Music by Jared Aston. The Pikedon Massacre is a production of iHeartRadio and KT Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Please welcome our Fife County Dogwood Festival Queen. Lord, I just thank you for bringing us all together as a community.

Who could have killed eight family members in one night?

I lost my best friend and I will never be the same because of that day. Four crime scenes, no DNA, no witnesses. The killer left those children laying in their mother's blood. The word that comes to mind is overkill. Who was the mastermind? I'm telling you, if they frame us, I'm not sitting in prison. One thing I learned...

The smaller the town, the bigger the secrets. Be sure to watch our upcoming documentary, The Pike County Murders, A Family Massacre, premiering on NBCUniversal's Oxygen Network and also streaming on Peacock this Thanksgiving Day weekend, November 24th and November 25th. Please check your local listings, and our hearts are with the Rodens and the Gilley families.

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